A Long Mail Offering A Small Defence Of The Glazers
I anticipate you probably won't get very many of these, but as I'm genuinely quite tired of listening to hollow 'Glazer out' arguments, and that the issue has reared its head again with an intended IPO, I'm going to weigh in, not necessarily in full support of the Glazers, but very much in favour of my mental health. Given it's a side that's not been put forward much, I'll hope you'll excuse the length.
Firstly, I'm a life-long United fan and a season ticket holder from Manchester. I'm also in business. Let's also establish that whilst I understand their sentiment, I genuinely feel that people who wear the green and yellow either don't understand the situation or don't actually know much about it. The majority of people who wear them are tourists, both in the sense of those just coming just to watch the reds play at Old Trafford and get a picture outside the ground, or those fans clinging on to the colours as proof of their supposed hard core support, and this is why they have dwindled: it was fashionable. In fact that was the campaign's greatest trick, as previously the movement had very little support for the less commercially successful "die Glazer die" chants.
So on to the "debt is bad" issue. Yes debt is bad. Well done. How did you buy your house? What are those bits of plastic in your wallet you use to buy stuff with? Most people will buy a house with a minimum of 10% deposit, the rest coming in the form of a 90% mortgage, which they will pay off across a 25 year term or more, and that debt will be charged at an interest rate and secured against the house in the form of a legal charge. This is exactly the same principle as the Glazer takeover, the only difference is that most of us will only buy a house for less than a couple of hundred grand, so figures like United having £660m in debt and paying £62m interest a year scares the crap out of us. It's like that Eddie Izzard joke about killing people. We're not even sure how to process figures that big, so you need to be able to put it in to context.
When the Glazers finished their takeover the club was valued at £800m. If we take the £660m figure for convenience, that means a decent 82.5% loan to value ratio. Since then, the value of the club, through bloody good commercial management and planning (and through a global recession no less), has risen to £1.4b, and the debt has gone down to below £439m. That's a current LTV of just 31%, and in that time Manchester United have spent money not only on creating that commercial revenue (an increase from just under £50m in 2005 to over £100m does not just happen with sod all effort and no spending) but on transfers: since 2005/06 we've spent £254m on incoming players (£36m per year). The £80m sale of Ronaldo in 09/10 is the only year in that period we made a net profit, and since then (including the £21m we spent that year) we've spent £98.1m. In the five years preceding the Glazers we spent £166m (£33m per year) and in fact in 00/01 we spent nothing, despite just having one the treble and letting Teddy go (although we did somehow get £250k for Taibi).
That success has also been echoed on the pitch. In the five years after the treble and before the Glazers when you would expect us to kick on we won 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup, and 1 Community Shield. Since the Glazers took over we have won 4 league titles, 3 league cups, 1 champions league (plus two finals against Barca), 4 Community Shields and the FIFA Club World Cup. And this is with the emergence of Chelski and the Citihad. The Glazers also deserve credit for getting that much money for Ronaldo - a board with a stock exchange full of shareholders to appease in terms of dividend would have panicked during the more barren years and sold him for a quick buck. The Glazers didn't have that situation because they can do what they like.
There are lots of other boring points to make - about interest rates, the fact that only £275m was actually secured against the club's assets (projected ticket sales, in case you were wondering, which is why our cup games are compulsory purchase), the payment of the PIK loans - but if the above doesn't work not much else will. I do think people like MUST do some great things, but it's hopefully quite evident that the Glazers had a plan for the club which they've executed brilliantly, and the fact that Ferguson regularly sings their praises should tell you all you need to know. As for them taking money out of the club, of course I would like to see that spent on transfers or debt reduction, but United is a business now, that's a dividend, a dividend entitlement that's made clear in the books, intended to reward them as owners and for their efforts increasing revenue, and still the value of the club has gone up to what it is. If you think dividends that big are going to change because the Red Knights (and don't get me started on them) or whoever buys the club...I'm sorry but those days are gone. At least these guys know how to make money, and our tickets are still cheaper than Arsenal and Chelsea.
So please stop waiving green and gold. All you've done is made sure they'll never sanction a Newton Heath tribute away kit again. As for the people behind FC United, that's beyond me. You can change your wife, your house and your job, but you can't change your club, especially just because you don't like their new boss.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 12:05 AM
Benny I like you but I'm starting to think you're a Glazer stooge.
They are sucking the life out of United. Spunking millions on interest payments when it could have gone into the team, upping season ticket prices by nearly 70% since their arrival in 2005, forcing season ticket holders to be a part of the ACS, I could go on and on and on about what they've done.
The bit that made me laugh was the 80 million Ronaldo money. Why was that no reinvested the summer he left? Instead we got Michael owen, free, Obertan 2 million, fucking Bebe. Granted 17 million went on Valencia but how much do you think the club saved in wages once Tevez and Ronaldo went? About 300'000 a week which is about £16 million year!
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 12:40 AM
"As for them taking money out of the club, of course I would like to see that spent on transfers or debt reduction, but United is a business now, that's a dividend, a dividend entitlement that's made clear in the books, intended to reward them as owners"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 7:46 AM
THREE WORDS
FUCK OFF GLAZERS.
We should be competing for all the best players in the world. The reason we aren't is because of these yanks bastards and the cunts who sold their shares to them.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 10:08 AM
You just hit the nail on the head, Shaun. If you want to be play the blame game, you need to go back a lot further than the Glazers. They're just an easy figure of hate. But as said, the money they 'suck out' of the club is theirs by rights as the rightful owners. They can draw out whatever divdend they like, but if the team isn't successful, their model fails.
As for being a Glazer stooge, can anyone point out where that email is incorrect in what it says?
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 10:12 AM
"They are sucking the life out of United. Spunking millions on interest payments when it could have gone into the team, upping season ticket prices by nearly 70% since their arrival in 2005, forcing season ticket holders to be a part of the ACS, I could go on and on and on about what they've done."
Under the Glazers, SAF has spent more on players than at any other time in Utd's history, and they've presided over the most successful period in the club's history. How is that 'sucking the life' out of United? The rest of what they have done, distasteful as it may be, is up to them as the owners. But hey, at least they have maintained the team's position as the most valuable club in the world (8 years running now, isn't it?).
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 10:37 AM
Floating the club on the stock market is where it all begins. 1991. No point being angry at the Glazers for that. In the grand scheme of football club owners, they've actually been very successful indeed.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 11:56 AM
"Under the Glazers, SAF has spent more on players than at any other time in Utd's history, and they've presided over the most successful period in the club's history. How is that 'sucking the life' out of United? The rest of what they have done, distasteful as it may be, is up to them as the owners. But hey, at least they have maintained the team's position as the most valuable club in the world (8 years running now, isn't it?)"
Net spend lower than Sunderland, Stoke and Villa. Just saying.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 12:07 PM
I can think of 3 players alone since 2005 who have recouped over £120m in transfer fees in total. The net spend argument falters if you're on an unlevel playing field to begin with.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 12:15 PM
Just to add a little fuel to the fire:
Agreeing With David On The Glazers
Bravo David P for articulating so concisely what I've been thinking for a long time. I'll admit, when the Glazers first took over and did it with such a large amount of debt, I was one of those greatly concerned about the future of our club, and I was foolish enough to get taken in by a news report (may have been a Panorama) going into the levels of debt and failure in their business in America and how United's income may be used to service debts in other parts of their empire. What quickly became apparent though - through whatever means - was that they were actually determined to clear that debt, whilst keeping us competitive even if it didn't appear too obvious how they would manage that at the time.
They have implemented some revolutionary (for a football club anyway) territorial marketing deals that I'm sure you will see all of the top teams emulating over the course of the next few years. As David pointed out, these have boosted our income streams significantly, and have helped increase the value of our club to nearly £1.5bn. These are all points completely glossed over by the media who are only interested in highlighting the eye-watering annual interest payments, or simply not grasped by the below average-intelligence football fan such as those that chant "die Glazers, die".
Football365 is just as guilty of it as anyone, the headlines today telling the story of "Glazers finally realise United's Debt is Not Good" - yes, these billionaires have only just got to grips with the economics of running a business and ascertained that debt is bad - of course! The statement from MUFC stating that the debt could hinder our ability to compete (or words to that effect) has been taken as some kind of evidence that they have only just seen what the whole world has apparently seen since day 1, and are somehow incompetent for having taken this long.
Boll*cks. If I gave you a 20 quid on Saturday night and took a fiver back it would hinder your chances of getting drunk, but you'd still have a good time - and that is what United have done since they took over. We have not been able to spend as much money as we would have if we didn't have the debt, but we have still managed to spend quite a fair bit, as illustrated by David, and enjoyed our most successful period to boot.
The purist longs for the football of yore where business and the men that go with it had nothing to do with football, and they would have a club stagnate or go backwards in the current climate. The realist acknowledges that you sometimes have to sell your soul to do more than stand still and move forward, and that's exactly what we've done - definitely at a cost, but I wouldn't trade those titles for all the gold (and green) in Fort Knox. Keep us competitive (note not necessarily winning, just competitive) Glazers, and you can keep the club.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 1:16 PM
"Part of me really wants to link this thread up on Red Issue and let them educate you but it would no doubt end up ruining this forum."
I'd be genuinely interested in seeing the results, tbh. Looking at it from a purely business perspective, there seems to be a lot of hysterical hand-wringing about the Glazers when actually the club is in rude health, both financially and on the pitch, and is continually moving in the right direction (i.e. increasing revenue and reducing debt). I'd also like to hear what other fans propose as an alternative model of ownership that would produce the same successful results.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 1:20 PM
You have to wonder why a consortium of bankers/investors/whatever, the 'Red Knights', from the likes of Goldman Sachs would contemplate a billion pound takeover of a sinking debt-laden ship, as United seems to often be portrayed. That is, of course, a hypothetical £200million profit for the Glazers on what the club was purchased for, and yet is well short of it's reported market value. And also, why the Glazers didn't sell if their model is about to go tits-up.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 2:38 PM
Go on then, point out where the OP email is incorrect, or as you say "laughable". I've yet to hear one decent counter-argument, not just from you, just a lot of noise.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 2:46 PM
Well I only skimmed it because i've talked about the subject ad nauseum on here before. But in the context of that letter, it reads like an investor talking rather than a foorball fan. Trust me, i've heard enough of that.
While the Glazers financial model works excellently for themselves and may even prove to be prudent for the club in the long term I don't see how you could be happy to sacrifice the success and momentum of Man Utd just so the board can all retire with funds intact. God knows it's been going on for years at Arsenal and it stinks.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 2:54 PM
"In the five years after the treble and before the Glazers when you would expect us to kick on we won 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup, and 1 Community Shield. Since the Glazers took over we have won 4 league titles, 3 league cups, 1 champions league (plus two finals against Barca), 4 Community Shields and the FIFA Club World Cup."
And this is during the emergence of Chelsea (and Roman) and Citeh (and their various owners), and in the midst of a global recession.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 2:56 PM
i think ben's point is that success and momentum *isn't* being sacrificed
i'll duck out there though, cos i know a grand total of fuck all about the subject
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:03 PM
You also have to question who you'd trust the running, or a decision regarding the running, of your club to;
a) a movement of football fans (not a group synonymous with huge levels of intelligence) who think it's perfectly acceptable to, vocally and in print media, wish death on a businessman who has, like it or not, bought a business through entirely legal means. Or,
b) a billionaire who runs a number of successful businesses including sporting franchises, and is, yes, a billionaire.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:06 PM
I don't know the ins and outs either, but I think the point of it being united most successful era ever is a bit misleading - what united have done well is trod water and become the premier league's default winners when other teams are in transition - Uited aren't so much winning battles as stepping up when Chelsea, and lately Man City, stumble. Fergie has proved what a good manager he is in the last few years, without a doubt, but it's not as clear. It as BTFC is saying
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:06 PM
I'm talking about in the future. I thought that was the whole point of discussion because obviously no Man U fan could have a grievance with what the club's won up until now. And you certainly lacked the success and momentum last season and without healthy invesment in the squad it doesn't look like it's going to change.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:13 PM
We've had a potless season before and not toys were thrown. Sold Ronaldo and Tevez and continued to be successful.
And lest we forget, it took £400m+ of money simply squandered (i.e. no chance of recouping it) and a last minute goal conceded to City by a team who knew they were safe, to just lose the title on goal difference. Not to mention the fact that our points total would've won the title most years.
So to suggest we are somehow in terminal decline and miles behiond anyone else is, to use your missive, laughable.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:35 PM
"I don't know the ins and outs either, but I think the point of it being united most successful era ever is a bit misleading - what united have done well is trod water and become the premier league's default winners when other teams are in transition - Uited aren't so much winning battles as stepping up when Chelsea, and lately Man City, stumble."
You could argue United have been in transition during this time too though, loss of the 'home-grown' generation, Ronaldo, Tevez, etc.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:42 PM
True, but the direction they seem to be going in during transition is not one that seems likely to keep on winning you titles indefinitely - the entire model of united success seems to be in danger: the fantastic young players that were the core throughout the late nineties and 2000's are just about finished, and Utd have simply not been able to compete in the transfer market as once they could. Meanwhile, City and Chelsea can probably win the next eight titles between them if they keep/get their houses in order. United might look healthy in the board room, but not on the pitch.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:48 PM
"True, but the direction they seem to be going in during transition is not one that seems likely to keep on winning you titles indefinitely - the entire model of united success seems to be in danger: the fantastic young players that were the core throughout the late nineties and 2000's are just about finished, and Utd have simply not been able to compete in the transfer market as once they could. Meanwhile, City and Chelsea can probably win the next eight titles between them if they keep/get their houses in order. United might look healthy in the board room, but not on the pitch."
FFP
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 3:51 PM
Well hopefully that will make a difference to what's going on in the premier league, cos its depressing at the moment. Time will tell how it plays out in practice.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 4:34 PM
That wasn't directed solely at you, however: "And you certainly lacked the success and momentum last season and without healthy invesment in the squad it doesn't look like it's going to change."
We were about 20 seconds from the title. And we bottled the run-in. And had motre points than seasons before when we won it. Hardly a lack of success and momentum.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 5 2012, 4:40 PM
Winning nothing isn't a lack of success? And faultering to second on the final day of the season as opposed to winning it in relative comfort for the majority of the last 20 years could certainly be considered a slowing of momentum.
That was more prediction than statement anyway. I was hypothesising that that could be the sacrifice having the Glazer's as your owner may have to be.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 6 2012, 12:19 PM
lol
________________________________________________________________________________________
.org365 - The .org Football Forum: http://www.network54.com/Forum/673024/
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 6 2012, 7:47 PM
Benny, do you think we've been more successful under the Glazers than we would have been under the old regime? Being a PLC is a fucking joke as well but it's preferable to being owned by that leech.
We've been successful in the last few years because we've had the best manager of all time dragging a few brilliant players, some good ones and a lot of mediocre ones along by the scruff of the neck. Had we had any other manager in the last few years, the Glazers probably would have gone by now because their investment would not have flourished at all.
And that article talking about debt not being a bad thing and comparing it to buying a house is absolute fucking nonsense.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 6 2012, 9:20 PM
At the end of the day we have spunk hundreds of millions of pound on interest alone and who has paid for it? Us the fans and the team has suffered because of it. Do you honestly think Scholes and Giggs would still be playing such important roles within the team had the funds have been available to replace them?! I think Bale would be at United by now to replace Giggs and someone like Sneijder or Silva would have come in for Scholes.
Added to that our most successful period of time coincided when arguably the the best player in the world (at the time) came of age and started to reach his potential. 2006/2007 and 2008/2009 Ronaldo was the best player in the world end of. There is no way we'd have won all those trophies without him, no way. Have to add both him and Rooney were brought in pre glazer as well. Do you believe had we have been debt free we'd have let Ronaldo go for 80 million? He was always going to go one day but I think we'd have broke the 100 million mark had we not been so desperate for the cash.
Also why in the hell didnt we just buy Tevez out right rather than a stupid loan deal? Answer because we couldn't afford to. We may have spent a lot summer 2007 but a lot of players left. Smith 7 million, Richardson 5 million, Rossi 7 million, Heinze 8 million, Bardsley 2 million, Shawcross 1 million, added to that the £70'000 a week saved when Ole retired. There's Nani and Anderson just about paid for.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 8 2012, 8:30 PM
Read in the paper today that although they are 450 mill in debt, the gLOLazers have just taken a 10 mill dividend.
Added to that, UTD have paid 22 mill in professional fees to companies associated with the glazers. To put that into perspective, that would have you bought you one of yaya toure's legs.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 7:40 AM
Glazers’ massive u-turn on MUFC IPO as they claw off more than half of proceeds for themselves
The Glazers have tonight revealed a massive u-turn in their IPO proposals. In the original filing it was made absolutely clear that ALL of the proceeds of the IPO would go to paying down debt the Glazers have loaded onto Manchester United.
A revised filing tonightspan class="link">http://1.usa.gov/NExsII reveals they now plan to take HALF OF THE IPO PROCEEDS FOR THEMSELVES.
Furthermore the amount raised to pay down debt will be relatively insignificant (£75m) leaving £350m of their debt still on our club.
A spokesman for the Manchester United Supporters Trust said "Supporters are going to be very angry about this. The Glazers have already cost United more than £550m in debt related fees and now another slap in the face as they help themselves to half of the proposed IPO proceeds. Each of the 6 lineal descendants of Malcolm Glazer will claw out $25 million for themselves."
"Clearly this has nothing to do with benefits for Manchester United and is all about giving the Glazers quick access to desperately needed cash at the expense of our football club. What is the sudden reason for this desperation for cash now?"
"There is now no doubt that this IPO is bad for Manchester United supporters, Manchester United Football Club and any investors gullible enough to pay the inflated price they've attached to inferior shares which have just 1/10 of the voting rights of the Glazers shares and no dividends. Their bare faced cheek is almost unbelievable."
+ £16m to Fergal and Gill in a senior management share scheme
= Great owners.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 8:09 AM
wonder if fergie will refuse his £16m for the good of the club
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 12:39 PM
Sky News: The club is 425 million pounds in debt and yet Alex Ferguson the coach is clear when ever he has wanted money to buy a player it's been given to him, he's saying that debt is not affecting the club.
Andy Green: Well what we found out in the prospectus last night that he and other senior management will be entitled to a share of 16 million shares, that's 288 million dollars worth of shares and share options. So I think we now know why Sir Alex was so in favour of the Glazer family
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 2:07 PM
As much as I hate seeing any club be fucked around by an inept businessman, and believe me, I know what that's like, how come the anti-Glazer brigade only come out when Man U don't win anything? I rarely saw anything of the sort season before last when they won the league and reached the Champions League final but after last season's catastrophe all the "LUHG GMMU!" lot are out in force again.
--------------------------------------
Called up to listen to the voice of reason, and got the answering machine
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 5.0 (1 person)
July 31 2012, 2:14 PM
I think you will find it was strongest the season UTD reached the Champions League final, Becks with scarf etc. But dont let that stop you spouting your shite eh
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 3:20 PM
reaches for his dossier of StoneManic parody logins
________________________________________________________________________________________
.org365 - The .org Football Forum: http://www.network54.com/Forum/673024/
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 5.0 (1 person)
July 31 2012, 4:22 PM
"I think you will find it was strongest the season UTD reached the Champions League final, Becks with scarf etc. But dont let that stop you spouting your shite eh"
That was against Milan in 2010, when you didn't win the league. You were in the Champions League final in 2011.
--------------------------------------
Called up to listen to the voice of reason, and got the answering machine
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 4:39 PM
Old age. Still, a semi-final should be considered an achievement. You club have bleated on about one for years. Also, by your reasoning the anti-Glazer brigade would have been at its quitest 2009-10 as the season before UTD were Champions but this wasnt the case.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 6:22 PM
Think I'll wait to hear from another source other than the MUST before passing comment, but ultimately it's their club, their holding company, ergo they do what the fuck they want with the money.
If any billionaire United fans want to buy them out and try running the club more effectively (and with better results), now's the time they should step up. Otherwise, as a fan, I'll just continue enjoying the most successful period of the club's history and leave the money matters to those who have the first clue.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Average Score 5.0 (2 people)
July 31 2012, 6:25 PM
I don't see any problem at all. It is no different to you or I going to a cash machine and withrawing your own money. The Glazers have the best interests of Man Utd PLC in their hearts and minds and always will.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
July 31 2012, 6:29 PM
And had sold the best player in the league as well that summer and replaced him with Michael Owen on a free!
It's sickening whats happening with this IPO listing. I don't know who I feel more angry at; the Glazers or Fergie/Gill. No wonder Fergie has praised them this last 7 years and described them as wonderful owners. I can think of 16 million reasons why he's done so. Do you reckon this self professed socialist man of the people will do the right thing and not take his payment?! Is a few million quid a season not enough for a 70 year old man?
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Average Score 1.0 (2 people)
July 31 2012, 6:40 PM
Exactly what I was telling Shaun the other day - Fergal's fucking cunt and it's his fault we are saddled with all this debt. Champagne socialist, management arse licking, self serving, disrespectful cunt who thinks it's 'Alex Ferguson's Manchester United FC.'
Incredible man manager though, I'll give him that eh
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 5.0 (1 person)
July 31 2012, 6:55 PM
Had the same conversation with my Uncle today who in his own words "never thought I'd here you call Fergie a cunt". He's sold out both us and his self with whats gone on. I can't defend him in regards to this. I let the "go and watch chelsea" comment from a few years back go because of the way both him and Gill were approached when he came out with it.
Stone Manic-I'll think you'll find that for the first few years during the Glazer reign no one was 100% sure what exactly what was going on because everything was so secretive, however over the last few years things are starting to become much clearer and the full extent of what they've done and are planning to do has only been made public, Nothing to do with what goes on with the teams success this is much much bigger than that.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 1.0 (1 person)
July 31 2012, 8:30 PM
'Exactly what I was telling Shaun the other day - Fergal's fucking cunt and it's his fault we are saddled with all this debt. Champagne socialist, management arse licking, self serving, disrespectful cunt who thinks it's 'Alex Ferguson's Manchester United FC.'
Incredible man manager though, I'll give him that eh'
Whoever 1'd that needs to have a serious look at themselves. Bang on the money.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 2:04 PM
"Fergal's fucking cunt and it's his fault we are saddled with all this debt. Champagne socialist, management arse licking, self serving, disrespectful cunt who thinks it's 'Alex Ferguson's Manchester United FC.'"
I must've missed Ferguson taking the decision to make United a plc.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 2:44 PM
That's because that never happened.
Ferguson did his part in trying to take the Irish lot to court and taking backhanders - esculating in them being pushed out and Uncle Malc stepping up.
But, I was on about the fact that if he actually gave a fuck about the future of club he would not have sat back and watch it bleed dry for the last 7 years. Should have walked, and asked the clubs blinkered fanbase to do like wise, years ago.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 2:59 PM
I really don't know what BTFC is doing with this thread. Of course the Glazers are entitled to do what they are doing, but that doesn't make it for the benefit of the club. If every owner of a club a: did what they were entitled to and b: acted in their own interests, not those of the club, then every club would suffer
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 3:24 PM
I don't really understand United fans who want it both ways. The club is enjoying the most successful period in it's history yet the owners are apparently 'bleeding it dry'. But whilst bleeding it dry they are also, remarkably, retaining and strengthening it's position as the most valuable sports club on the planet, following a sound business plan which is seeing revenue rise and debts decrease to a small proportion of the club's overall value. Why would Ferguson 'walk' when he's getting more money to spend on players than he ever has, plus the team has won 4 titles and been to 3 European Cup finals in the last 6 years? Baffling logic.
United is a PLC, regardless of what Ferguson did or didn't do with Magnier and McManus, the Glazers could have taken the club over if they wanted to. It's the decision to put United on the stock market that underpins everything else, not SAF's attitude.
As for this IPO and whatnot, if you own something and decide to sell 10% of it, why shouldn't you keep half the proceeds if you want to? Imagine wanting a return on your £600 million investment, what cads!
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 3:26 PM
"Of course the Glazers are entitled to do what they are doing, but that doesn't make it for the benefit of the club."
I hate to sound like a broken record, but if United had plummeted down the league for the last 6-7 seasons and not won anything, then this would hold true. As the opposite has occurred, it doesn't really make sense.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 6:23 PM
You seem to be labouring under the idea that the football club would collapse straight away if it was going to. Man utd are undeniably weaker, and will continue to decline under the glazers. It's entirely possible, in fact quite likely, that you won't win another title under Fergie.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 6:39 PM
Yep, but other times it has been said by people giddy about how much money other teams are spending, or how good another manager is - this is something that has been brewing for a long time and the results will start to become apparent soon.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 6:48 PM
Except for the fact we were 20 seconds from another title (5 in 6 years that would've been, faod), and had more points than the season previous when we actually won it. We'll wait and see shall we.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Average Score 4.0 (4 people)
August 1 2012, 7:08 PM
It's not about the trophies, or even winning games. It's about comparing points totals to previous years. And on that basis we are undisputedly going from strength to strength.
LOVE GLAZERS, FOND OF MAN UTD!
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 7:00 PM
Ferguson showed his true colours last week when he suggested those who criticised the Glazers weren't "real fans." By constantly banging on about how great they are he is getting fans to believe that they are the perfect owners and everything is rosy. Added to getting a cut of the IPO - money that should go to the club as initially proposed and not to servicing the Glazer's Delaware loan - means he's now part of the problem.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 7:45 PM
"Except for the fact we were 20 seconds from another title (5 in 6 years that would've been, faod), and had more points than the season previous when we actually won it. We'll wait and see shall we"
Benny why can't you see this whole thing is bigger than what happens on the field? I'd still maintain my stance had we have won the league last year. What Fergie has done and is doing is wrong. Simple as. Why can't you get your head round that? Matt Busby would never have conducted himself the way Fergie has, he'd have walked.......he actually resigned from his position on the board when we bought Robson for a million because he thought it was obscene.
At the end of the day the Glazer have bled this club dry by purchasing it with money thats not even theirs and it's the fans that have suffered because of it. Do you think the Glazers give a flying fuck if the stadiums filled with 75'000 Mancs or 75'000 asian tourists?! They don't have any of the clubs best interests as their priority, only their own.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 1.0 (1 person)
August 1 2012, 8:07 PM
"Why can't you get your head round that? Matt Busby would never have conducted himself the way Fergie has, he'd have walked.......he actually resigned from his position on the board when we bought Robson for a million because he thought it was obscene."
That's a fairly absurd comparison. Like it or not, football is now a global business where (some) clubs are worth billions, Matt Busby never dealt with that situation so who knows what he'd have done. And isn't it funny how quick 'real fans' are to turn on Ferguson because he stands to benefit from this IPO listing?
It's not the Glazers fault the club was listed on the stock exchange as a PLC, thus opening up the possibility of a takeover by anyone, and by a variety of means (including leveraging debts against the club). What strikes me as incredibly confusing about this whole campaign is it seems many United fans would prefer someone had bought it outright and run it into the ground, as long as the 'fans' didn't suffer any hardship.
And considering the Glazers do own it, by whatever means, I would rather they ran it according to a sound business model (which they are), increased it's overall value exponentially (which they have), reduce the unwanted debts they leveraged against the club (which they continue to do), and continue to fund a team that produces the goods on the pitch (which they have).
How can you say they don't have the club's best interests at heart when their entire business model depends on the continued success of the club? The two go hand-in-hand. If the team plummet down the table and begin to fail miserably, their model suffers. And anyway, define 'best interests'.
Anyway, I thought you were linking me up to redcafe & to lots of people who were going to blow my arguments out of the water?
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 8:28 PM
An anti-Glazer ownership blog, written by a sole fan, is hardly going to convince me. He even apologises for the speculative nature of some of his own posts! And that open letter is crap, quite frankly.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 8:40 PM
1. You suggested that ‘the majority of real fans will look at it [Glazer ownership] and see that it’s not affecting the team’. Can you clarify what constitutes a real fan? - Shit question. They've presided over the most successful time in the club's history. Do 'real fans' not see that?
2. With thousands of fans leaving the club in protest over the Glazer regime, do you consider these time-served reds to be less than real fans? - Any source for the exact numbers of these 'thousands of fans'? And what kind of fan "leaves their club" because they don't like the owners? That's no more a real fan than anyone else. Less, if anything.
3. Have you personally met with any of the dissenters to determine how deep their commitment and affection for United may be? - Again, shit question.
4. What are your thoughts on an atmosphere which gets markedly worse each season as more and more local, traditional fans are marginalised and alienated from the club? - Again, speculative, but United have a lot of fans not just from Manchester (as do lots of other teams), should they never be allowed to attend?
5. You are also quoted in the interview as claiming ‘I’m absolutely comfortable with the Glazers situation. They’ve been great’. You are clearly aware of the opposition from the United fan base - does that not make you uncomfortable in any way? - Some of the United fanbase, not all. In fact, there seem to be an increasing number who are able to stop themselves frothing at the mouth for a second and look at the bigger picture, which isn't actually that bad.
6. What, in your view, would constitute poor owners? - Stupid question.
7. You have repeatedly claimed to have been backed financially whenever you have requested transfer funds. Is this your only consideration when determining what represents great ownership? - See above.
8. You continued the interview by saying that, ‘the salaries, agent fees – is just getting ridiculous now’. Whilst we agree in tone, it does represent a sea change in attitude from pre Glazer transfers. Agent fees in both the Ferdinand and Rooney transfers were criticised at the time for being excessive, so why does the club now refuse to meet market conditions for the top players? - Correct me if I'm wrong, but United have spent more on players under the Glazers than under anyone else.
9. Do you believe Jorge Mendes’s £2.6m cut of the Bébé transfer, a full 35% of the total fee paid, represented good value? - Fair enough, but I'm sure there's plenty of signings SAF regrets, and the associated fees.
10. With more than £250k leaving the club each day to service the Glazer debt, totalling over £500m since the takeover, is it so reprehensible for us to question your constant references to ‘value’? - How much has revenue, income, etc increased in this time, also how much has the overall value of the club increased. Needs to be balanced out with the full financial picture.
Given your personal background and previous support for fan involvement we hope you take the trouble to respond to our deep concerns about both the club’s situation and the wording of the interview quoted.
Signed
Concerned Manchester United Fans
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 8:56 PM
I seem to recall everyone predicting doom and financial meltdown for years now, when actually, at this rate, the club will be debt free before long and worth almost twice what it was when they took over.
Did the MUST not oppose the proposed fully-funded takeover by the British-owned BSkyB too? But they must definitely speak for the majority of Manchester United fans, right?
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 8:48 PM
BFTC, do you have a vested interest in supporting the glazers? You come across as determined to think that they are a good thing, and it's not clear why.
The successful period thing is slightly misleading - in truth it owes more to United staying still while Chelsea have struggled for consistency, arsenal and Liverpool have gone backwards and Man City have been playing catch up. It's notable that in the last few years United have by all accounts won without playing brilliant football - its because they've been treading water, almost winning titles by default
If they've spent more money on players than ever, it's because A: transfer fees are higher than ever and B: united have flogged players for a hell of a lot. As has been pointed out, the net spend isn't impressive at all.
The biggest signifier for me, was the way the Rooney transfer request was handled: the lesson from that was that Fergie knows that if he flogged Rooney, they would not be able to replace him with a player with a similar reputation/value. In years gone by, Rooney would have been shipped out immediately
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 9:06 PM
"BFTC, do you have a vested interest in supporting the glazers? You come across as determined to think that they are a good thing, and it's not clear why."
Why does it have to be about good or bad, per se. Their ownership of the club is a fact, and the evidence (finanacial and results-wise) suggests they're making a very decent job of it. I tend to look at the facts and what they team produces for my conclusions. Wearing green and gold scarfs, wishing death on people and threatening to abandon your team because you don't like the owners is they way to go, is it?
"The successful period thing is slightly misleading - in truth it owes more to United staying still while Chelsea have struggled for consistency, arsenal and Liverpool have gone backwards and Man City have been playing catch up. It's notable that in the last few years United have by all accounts won without playing brilliant football - its because they've been treading water, almost winning titles by default"
All speculative I'm afraid, did the rest of Europe just stagnate too while we went to 3 CL finals in 6 years? You suggested that United are 'undeniably weaker' under the Glazers. The evidence points to the exact opposite. For whatever reason, it's been United's best period. So how this fits with them being "undeniably weaker" I just don't know, but am curious to hear.
"If they've spent more money on players than ever, it's because A: transfer fees are higher than ever and B: united have flogged players for a hell of a lot. As has been pointed out, the net spend isn't impressive at all."
Yes, but United have sold 3 players that recouped £120m+ alone. Net spend is a fairly cretinous argument continually trotted out by Liverpool fans under Benitez. You can manipulate that argument many ways.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 9:57 PM
You're disregarding that it says something about Man Utd that they are selling their best players for large sums - of course the net spend is relevant: not in the Torres/Carroll sense, which made no sense at all, but in that it shows, plainly, that Uniteds best players are moving on, and aren't being replaced by players as valuable. It's pretty bloody clear and you seem to be doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to not see it.
It's all a bit odd, really, and I'm not a united fan by any stretch, but I can see that this isn't a good situation
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 10:09 PM
CEB, who are the best players who are 'moving on'?
Ronaldo? He was always going and we got a few great years out of him.
Tevez? Meh, he's a cunt, glad he left.
Who else? Other than a couple of youth team players, one with a bad attitude and one with unrealistic expectations? Although, admittedly, I'm gutted and slightly perplexed now Pogba has gone.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 10:38 PM
Benny seems to be getting his tenses mixed up. Man Utd's lost the league title last season. A title they won the previous season.
In the Champions League you made the final season to last. Last season you didn't make it out of the group stages.
What part of this is 'progress' exactly?
Man Utd have had their most succesfull period under the Glazers, indeed. Nothing indicates that that is going to continue, though. Just the opposite, in fact.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 1 2012, 11:46 PM
Playing Devil's advocate here and looking at this objectively- and not knowing a massive deal about it either- it seems that Benny is the only one backing up his arguments with any coherent points- what he's saying seems to make clear sense. Others just seem to be jumping on the glazers are baaaaad bandwagon. The cold facts are that the glazers are clearing massive debts while increasing revenue and having success on the pitch. From what little I know about the situation, the fans are being hit in the pocket regarding ticket prices which have been brought into line with other big clubs. Other than that I'm not sure what the gripes are?
Apologies if I've misread the situation.
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 6:29 AM
Must have missed where any figures were given. Last 12 months net debt is actually up and income is down. The only thing the Glazers are paying off massively is interest. £250k a day.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 6:41 AM
Fair do's. Like I say, I'm not up with the facts- and if that's the case ^ then i'll shut up.
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 6:45 AM
To put it into perspective, the money wasted in the Glazers’ reign is now estimated at £553 million, comprising £295 million interest payments, £128 million debt repayments, £101 million for various bits of financial reengineering (fees for takeover, refinancing, interest swap termination, bond issue and IPO) and £29 million payments to the Glazer family via consultancy fees and dividends.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 11:54 AM
I'm not conivnced that a billionaire Jewsih family have one liquid asset among a business empire than includes food service equipment, food packaging and food supplies, marine protein, broadcasting, health care, property, banking, natural gas and oil, the Internet, stocks and bonds. And that's before their sporting interests. And Jim White's blog post doesn't sound terribly well informed either, possibly why it's a blog post. It does sound bitter though.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 12:03 PM
"To put it into perspective, the money wasted in the Glazers’ reign is now estimated at £553 million, comprising £295 million interest payments, £128 million debt repayments, £101 million for various bits of financial reengineering (fees for takeover, refinancing, interest swap termination, bond issue and IPO) and £29 million payments to the Glazer family via consultancy fees and dividends."
"Money wasted" is a spurious term being thrown around a lot too. All those things you listed (i.e. borrowing money, refinancing, dividends, etc.) all cost money, a lot of it when you're talking 6 or 7 figure sums. If you had a mortgage and a financial adviser, would you consider the interest on the mortgage and the fees paid to the adviser as 'money wasted', or simply the cost of doing business? As they are the owners, they can use the money they generate as they see fit, surely? I appreciate it's a lot, but given the financial results they are producing (i.e. United generating profits of £100 million, compared to Man City's £80 million loss, for example) it could be considered money well spent, no?
Andf it's not as if that £500 million would've been spent on players by someone else anyway, unless you'd prefer a sugar-daddy to throw unlimited amounts of cash at the club instead of running a stable and successful business. One thing is sure, United don't currently have any problems servicing their debt and although the figures are eye-watering, they are manageable. If Chelsea or City have the financial plug pulled, they are fucked, whereas United are actually in a very strong position with FFP approaching.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 1:21 PM
BFTC, it's sounding a lot like you're just sticking up for the rights of the owners to do what the fuck they like, rather than arguing that it is good for the club.
You're not giving any ground at all, you haven't even acknowledged that going back on the promise they made about not taking money for themselves undeniably shows that they are, at the very least, demonstrably and undeniably worse for the club than you thought they were a week ago, and that they demonstrably lied about their intentions.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 1:43 PM
I didn't for a second suggest they wouldn't take money out of the club. Of course they will, it's their cub, their investment, hence they receive a dividend and so on.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 1:52 PM
I didn't suggest you had suggested that. I said that it's indisputable that they are worse for the club than you thought they were a week ago, since in the meantime it has become clear that they are taking money out of the club that they previously promised to put back in.
Do you really not see that? Because if not, then you really don't have an open mind about it, and it's not worth debating: you're sticking to your guns more rigidly the more arguments against the glazers that you hear.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 1.0 (1 person)
August 2 2012, 1:55 PM
‘If United go belly-up I'll happily admit I am completely wrong, btw.’
This may sound harsh but your above statement pretty much explains your standpoint for me - at the end of the day Man Utd is just a team you like to watch on the telly. Typical plastic manc.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:00 PM
Actually, it's more of a statement to clarify that I'm confident in what I'm saying, but thanks for your invaluable contribution to this thread, weasel squeeze. Do you know anything about me? Have you actually got anything useful to add? Who do you support? Why don't you post here any other time? So many questions.
CEB, show me where the Glazers promised not to take any money out of the club. And why are you constantly using the term undeniably when nothing you're saying is actually undisputable.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 1:56 PM
They may be half bill n debt and still proposing to spend irresponsible sums on rvp, but at least when the ipo starts they can guarantee the stock will go up.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 1:56 PM
If you love them so much Benny why not start your own campaign. Maybe a green and green campaign. You could stand out side Old Trafford on Match's days with graph's and charts showing commercial revenue increases whilst chanting "Love United, Love Glazer".
Then perhaps you can take a leisurely stroll around Salford, Stretford and Ordsall maybe even doing door to door campaigning with the locals in order to generate support. I'm sure they'd back you all the way.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:09 PM
I didn't say the glazers promised never to take any money out of the club. I'm saying that on this specific occasion, they had promised to plough the money back into the club, but they changed their mind. It's been widely reported - are you seriously not accepting that? Because if not, I'm done on this thread
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:21 PM
can they not take money for themselves and put money into the club?
just asking
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:27 PM
In what sense do you mean "can"? - they aren't doing anything they aren't entitled to by taking money out, but they are going back on a promise they made not to take money out at this point.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:47 PM
Ah, right, so I should be happier if ticket prices stayed low and we were wholly unsuccessful. Like Arsenal you mean? Football and big business are inextricably linked, something the MUST seems unable to grasp. Youw ant a successful team that gets to European cup finals, finishes in the top two, etc. then you pay the price.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:57 PM
"If you love them so much Benny why not start your own campaign. Maybe a green and green campaign. You could stand out side Old Trafford on Match's days with graph's and charts showing commercial revenue increases whilst chanting "Love United, Love Glazer".
Then perhaps you can take a leisurely stroll around Salford, Stretford and Ordsall maybe even doing door to door campaigning with the locals in order to generate support. I'm sure they'd back you all the way."
Ok, and in return you pop down to the City and tell the investors/analysts/Red Knights where they are going wrong, and that their figures are all to cock, and advise them against making a bid in the reigon of £1.5 billion, that doubles what Uncle Malcolm paid for United, because you and the MUST think he's 'ripping the heart out the club' (what does that even mean anyway? By putting prices up into line with other teams in the PL? The automatic cup scheme? Wow, those animals).
No offence, but I doubt the finest business minds reside in Salford, Stretford or Ordsall and United is now a billion-pound business, not a sodding working man's club. I appreciate your sentiments and the passion within this, but you can't think I'm the only one who sees the situation this way. Some look at it with the head, others the heart.
Also, as I asked earlier, why did the MUST oppose a fully-funded British takeover of United by BSkyB when that happened? I suspect it's because they don't agree with anything outside their viewpoint of who and how United is owned, yet they happily lap up the success when that comes along. Didn't hear too much dissent when United won their 19th title. Can't have it all ways.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 2:53 PM
Things like this are where I think I have a decent insight as a supporter of a lower league team - orient are owned by Barry Hearn, and there are better owners and worse owners than him, and though a lot of orient fans differ on how good he is for the club, one thing that lower league supporters know about, and talk about all the time in the pub, is the importance of holding owners to account: never assume they are doing whats right for the club, and never assume they know what they're doing.
It's all very well dismissing MUST while you think things are going well, but a strong suporters trust is a fucking good thing to have once things start going pear shaped, believe me, and your passionate defence of the Glazers would be blinkered even if there was no reason so far at all to doubt they had anything but the best interests of the football club in mind
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:01 PM
They're American Jewish billionaires, CEB, I had already assumed they weren't in this because of their undying love for Manchester United. However, until things start to look disasterous, and not the opposite, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I am also relatively pragmatic and accept the situation for what it is, and also accept that me wearing a green and gold scarf and wishing death on an old man will do fuck all in the grand scheme of things and ultimately make me look like a bit of a cunt.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:05 PM
CEB- do you not think you're taking a rather black and white view of this?
Surely it's a balancing act- deliver success, and make money at the same time- which in reality is what all big clubs are- part business, part sports club.
I don't think you'll find a single businessman owner of a big club that's purely in it for sporting reasons.
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:14 PM
Well it's not completely speculative considering Man Utd's performance last season and so far failing to make any much needed signings during this transfer window.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:19 PM
We have signed 2 players already, I'm sure if SAF decides more are required then we'll sign more. And I don't see our performance last season, domestically at least, as being disasterous either. If European exits at the first hurdle become a pattern then I'll be concerned, but one bad European season does not a shit team make.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:22 PM
"CEB- do you not think you're taking a rather black and white view of this?
Surely it's a balancing act- deliver success, and make money at the same time- which in reality is what all big clubs are- part business, part sports club.
I don't think you'll find a single businessman owner of a big club that's purely in it for sporting reasons."
I agree with some of what you said, disagree with the last sentence though, but I think I'll leave it to any united fans who still want to bother to make their case, I dont really care that much about united
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:26 PM
From the Manchester Evening News
"Manchester United's owners have suffered a fresh wave of criticism after indicating only half the proceeds of their planned IPO will be used to reduce the club's massive debt.
Previously, the Glazer family had indicated they would use all the money to reduce United's borrowings, which presently stand at £437million.
However, within the prospectus that was released through a New York Stock Exchange announcement of a planned sale, the Glazers have indicated only half the sum will be used."
I also read it on the BBC and in the guardian. But I'm sure this will get dismissed with "oh well I'm not going to trust one journalist blah blah Glazers blah blah do what they want"
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:37 PM
'Previously indicated' isn't really the same as "promised" is it? I'm yet to see any quotes attributed to the Glazers where they promised that (primarily because they hardly ever speak publicly), I do take your point though.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:39 PM
To digress for a moment, I don't think United are going to sign, or indeed a play a system where a defensive midfielder (like De Jong or someone) is necessary.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:51 PM
"'Previously indicated' isn't really the same as "promised" is it? I'm yet to see any quotes attributed to the Glazers where they promised that (primarily because they hardly ever speak publicly), I do take your point though.
Anyway, I thought you didn't care about United."
well, it's all business speak isn't it? but an "indication" in this sense, I would have assumed to have been the Glazers previously dealing with concerns by saying something meaning "dont worry - we won't take any money - it will go into servicing the debt" - so when they changed their minds, you can see how that rings alarm bells for people suspicious of them.
I don't care about United in a footballing, tribal sense, but I'm interested in the behind the scenes stuff in football just as much as I am the on the pitch stuff, and what's going on at United is interesting.
I really do think United supporters have a lot to be worried about at the moment, and I don't think youre as far away from falling away dramatically as you think. I know you can dismiss it with "oh we've been written off before", but in the past you have had a core of players who came through the ranks, were superb, and were devoted to the club for as long as the club wanted them, you were also the most prestigious team to play for in the premier league, and you were also able to pay the biggest fees for players in the premier league - none of that now applies, and at least some of that is due to United simply not being able to buy the best players. Do you really think fergie is happy with his midfield?
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:40 PM
god, i wish i lived in a world where all big football clubs were owned by selfless benefactors who didn't give a jot about some return for their buck.
Ironically CEB, the model closest to what you see as ideal is manchester city
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 3:58 PM
quite the opposite papajay - I was going to do a detailed reply to you cos I worried that it would seem that way. In the narrow context of the premiership at the moment, then yes, City's ownership is definitely the best way of getting success in the league, bad as that is for football as a whole.
but my point about United is that when debt free, which they were, they were still in a very strong position to compete with City, (if anyone can compete with them) but crippled by debt as they seem to be now, they wont have a chance.
There is so much wrong with the way football clubs are run at the moment. I'd argue that City's owners are bad for football, but United's owners are bad for United.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 4:00 PM
(also, meant to add that I'm not talking about utopian ideas for how clubs should be run, but I'm talking about the importance of fans trusts once owners start acting in a way thats detrimental to the club, whether that be taking a club to the brink of extinction, or seeing a successful team start to fall away)
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 4:02 PM
I dunno when united were debt free, so can't comment further (when were they last debt free btw?)
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 4:04 PM
"I know you can dismiss it with "oh we've been written off before", but in the past you have had a core of players who came through the ranks, were superb, and were devoted to the club for as long as the club wanted them, you were also the most prestigious team to play for in the premier league, and you were also able to pay the biggest fees for players in the premier league - none of that now applies, and at least some of that is due to United simply not being able to buy the best players. Do you really think fergie is happy with his midfield?"
That golden generation of players were a one-off, how many times have seen that repeated at any club in the country? We are still the most prestigous team to play for in the Premier League, by a mile, imho at least.
In terms of big transfers United have never been a City type where they just throw great wedges of cash at everyone, it's ususally about buying young and developing talent within a limited wage structure, with the occasional big purchase to either supplement what was there already, or a serious long-term investment (i.e. Ferdinand, Rooney). yes there have been exceptions (Veron) that have had mixed success, but SAF has never gone after marquee signings as a habit.
Do I think he's happy with the midfield? I don't know, tbh. There's still an abundance of talent there and players to come through though. Valencia, Anderson, Fletcher (hopefully), Nani, Giggs, Scholes, Young, Carrick, Kagawa, Powell & Cleverly doesn't look too shabby though.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 4:11 PM
"That golden generation of players were a one-off, how many times have seen that repeated at any club in the country? We are still the most prestigous team to play for in the Premier League, by a mile, imho at least."
yes, they were: but the point I was making regarding them was that they've all been constants during the ups and the downs, have defined Fergie's time as manager, and this coming season will almost definitely be the last we see of any of them
"In terms of big transfers United have never been a City type where they just throw great wedges of cash at everyone, it's ususally about buying young and developing talent within a limited wage structure, with the occasional big purchase to either supplement what was there already, or a serious long-term investment (i.e. Ferdinand, Rooney). yes there have been exceptions (Veron) that have had mixed success, but SAF has never gone after marquee signings as a habit."
Yep, I agree - United have never been as mental as City are now, but they aren't getting the best young players through the ranks now (or even keeping the ones that do, Morrison admittedly cos hes a twat, but Pogba is a classic example of a player who would previously have been at Utd for years) and they aren't really doing the serious long term investments - as a result, expect a bigger gap between you and City next year, and a bigger one the year after that unless something changes
"Do I think he's happy with the midfield? I don't know, tbh. There's still an abundance of talent there and players to come through though. Valencia, Anderson, Fletcher (hopefully), Nani, Giggs, Scholes, Young, Carrick, Kagawa, Powell & Cleverly doesn't look too shabby though."
Giggs is finished, Scholes has one year left at best. it's not an awful midfield, but its not ever going to be the core of a great united team
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 4:16 PM
Pogba was demanding a shedload of money a week after making 2 first team appearances or something like that, he was asking for trouble. I'm still surprised he was allowed to go though, and that he wasn't played last year (especially when we played Park and Rafael in the middle, ffs). That was baffling in the extreme.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 4:28 PM
is that right- were utd debt -free before the glazers came?
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 5:12 PM
so the glazers took over and immediately plunged the club into millions of pounds worth of debt?
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 5:12 PM
so the glazers took over and immediately plunged the club into millions of pounds worth of debt?
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 2 2012, 6:03 PM
"United initial Glazer induced debt - £660m
Current debt - £437m
Following the flotation,£75m reduction =
£362m debt (With a £70m cash reserve)"
Yes, the Glazers leveraged huge debts against the club, but without the due diligence process I doubt very much the takeover would ever have been sanctioned. Do people think these billionaires are learning the economics of running a business as they go along?
So they've basically halved debts against the club already, with United collecting 4 titles, 2 league cups and a European cup along the way. Somebody call the cops and get those lunatics out of there!!1!
Remind me, what have City won in that time, mardous?
Interesting to note in the comments that Duncan whatever his name is from MUST and Andersred are both ridiculed and accused of being against SAF, respectively.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 3 2012, 12:12 PM
Nice cop-out in the absence of any coherent arguments. Fair enough you don't like the fact that United is a billion pound business as well as a football team. Don't hate the player, hate the game, etc.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 3 2012, 12:25 PM
It's one thing to criticise the Glazers, but to question the integrity of SAF after what he has achieved over tyhe last 25 years for United, based on spurious accusations from MUST is quite another. 'Real fans' indeed.
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Average Score 1.0 (2 people)
August 3 2012, 12:55 PM
Did Benny just use the word integrity and Alex Ferguson in the same sentence?! ha Does anyone believe "I wouldn't sell that mob a Virus".....is telling the truth?
The last two sentences about not wanting to create rifts...... too fucking late we know who's side he's on and its not ours. Not questioning his abilities as a manager he's one of the best of all time but I have no time for Fergie the man anymore. He's always said no one person is bigger than this club.....did he remind himself of that fact?
BFTC just doesn't get it. Last time I'm commenting in this thread because all this pro glazer bollocks is making me angry. You continue to blow Uncle Malcolm benny, theres a boy.
Anonymous (Select Login papajay) TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 3 2012, 1:22 PM
this is how it starts
managers lying to fans, businessmen asset stripping the club, infighting amongst the fans themselves, jugglers, clowns, trapeze artists, lion tamers, gypsies and a big tent
_________________________________________________________________
"I fine, i fine, bloomy charlie my country is shaken. .org loves me, please send money and bad jumpers to save stanza"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 1.0 (1 person)
August 3 2012, 1:37 PM
Right, I'll wind it in now. Don't want to upset anyone (or induce visions of me noshing off an old ginger man), just playing a bit of devil's advocate, etc.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Average Score 3.3 (3 people)
August 3 2012, 7:29 PM
I think I can confidently say that I speak for all Man Utd fans when I say what a disaster it would be for the club if the Glazers sell up.
First of all, any new owner would have to settle a massive amount of debt. What is a <s>business</s> football club without massive debt? Nothing. Massive debts and football clubs go together like milk and honey.
And good luck finding a new owner as sexy as Malcolm. The cuddly ginger adonis.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 4 2012, 10:49 AM
Just read an article about this farce, which included the following: 'speaking in a 36 minute video presentation that is being shown to investors on the club's global marketing roadshow ahead of a proposed flotation on the NYSE...'
No wonder football is on its arse. Thank god there city are still run as a proper football club not a cash cow.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"An apology to Sir Alex and a restatement of the fundamental issues
Sir Alex Ferguson
Readers will no doubt have seen Sir Alex Ferguson's statement that he will not benefit financially from the IPO. As one of the people suggesting he was likely to participate in the $288m "2012 Equity Incentive Reward Plan" the club are putting in place, I'd like to apologise to Sir Alex for the suggestion that personal gain was a motivation in his support for the owners. I think it was a valid question to ask in the light of his comments about "real fans" last week, but I was wrong about my assertions. I have frequently stressed on this blog the miracles Sir Alex has achieved at United and was proud to promote the SAF25 fans' book last year. I'm extremely glad he is not caught up in the murky finances of our club."
Anonymous (Login towniehater) MANCHESTER UNITED F.C
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
No score for this post
August 6 2012, 9:00 PM
Notice how you omitted all the text and break downs under his apology. Fergie can come out his denials but I won't be satisfied until the Glazers release figures showing who these senior executives are and also how much they're planning to actually pay off.
"People have queried my "agenda". My agenda remains the same. I want Manchester United run for the glory of Manchester United, not to make money for owners who do not care about it. I want the money United makes to be ploughed back into the club, invested in players, stadium and cheaper tickets, not wasted on financing costs. I want debts taken on only to expand the facilities of the club"
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Average Score 4.3 (6 people)
August 8 2012, 12:06 PM
"People have queried my "agenda". My agenda remains the same. I want Manchester United run for the glory of Manchester United, not to make money for owners who do not care about it. I want the money United makes to be ploughed back into the club, invested in players, stadium and cheaper tickets, not wasted on financing costs. I want debts taken on only to expand the facilities of the club"
Can't really put it any better than that."
Sounds like whoever wrote this is living in cloud cuckoo land. This is the real world, unless you are Man City you are not going to get that. A club run for the glory of the club? What a load of shite, this isn't Roy of the Rovers.
Man Utd fans need to grow up and stop whingeing. Boo hoo we've lost our Ronaldo, we aren't spending enough money and we only finished 2nd in the league. Their fans have never been known for their sense of perspective, how could they be when they've had it their own way for at least the last 20 years. But you would expect them of all people to understand that football is a business.
I don't think you'll get much sympathy from fans of other clubs I'm afraid, but we will enjoy your hand-wringing. Threads like this are top-notch entertainment, keep them coming.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: Finally, a sensible appraisal of the Glazers...
Score 1.0 (1 person)
August 8 2012, 1:31 PM
It seems some United fans want the club entirely controlled by fans. Which is quite simply never going to happen, and would you want a billion pound buiness run by the likes of the MUST? I wouldn't. No offence to them but I doubt they'd have the first clue.
Or do they want a sugar-daddy like City and Chelsea have? All very well, but what if it's the wrong sugar-daddy and the MUST decide they don't like him either? And that's clearly not a sustainable business model unless you have bottomless pockets. Remind me how much Abramovich has had to pump into Chelsea, do you think he'll get that money back? I doubt it. Unless of course he spaffs another small fortune on a new ground somewhere.
So the only other viable alternative is to have it run as a sound business which produces results, which is currently happening (albeit at a financial cost).
I'm interested to hear the LUHG movement's proposed model of ownership.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
'there is no scientific measure of boisterousness, but surely city's followers broke the noise record for a semi final, keeping up a din that suggested no resentment at the choice of venue'
'The Glazers are businessmen, United is a very attractive business proposition'
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
![[linked image]](http://bloggingblue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Ostrich-man-head-in-sand.gif)
