<@SLViehl> Okay, let's move on to block three.
<@SLViehl> How many books do you write?
<Pantalia> I think a problem with sci-fi fantasy is that the other books in
the series need to be foreshadowed in the first few, right SL?
<@SLViehl> At least foreshadowed by your HUB or CHRONICLE theme
<@SLViehl> The classic series has always and will forever be a trilogy --
three books.
<@SLViehl> We like threes.
<@SLViehl> With a trilogy, you must have control over the story. Tight
control.
<@SLViehl> You've got three books to get it right, and that's all.
<@SLViehl> One of the best trilogies I've ever read is Holly's Secret Texts.
A beginning, a struggle, an end. Wham, you're done.
<@SLViehl> The mid-length series is, imho, a less than ten book series.
<@SLViehl> With the mid-length, you've got obviously, more time to play. You
can develop more characters and storylines. You can also develop a
readership from the loyal, mid-length loving audience out there.
<@SLViehl> But these people expect you to wrap it up, so you still have to
plan an end to it all.
<@SLViehl> With Blade Dancer, I've planned eight books. One set-up, seven
more based from the point of view of each of the seven protagonists.
<@SLViehl> It's not as tight as a trilogy, but I've got to end the story, so
planning is still really important.
<@SLViehl> The open series -- no end in sight.
<@SLViehl> I love the open series.:)
<@SLViehl> With an open-ended series, you can do whatever you want -- with
conditions.
<@SLViehl> If your concept is epic enough to fuel twenty books, and twenty
more books after that, you've got an open-ender on your hands.
<@SLViehl> You get to have: steady employment, stay in a universe you love
(you MUST love) and you can even make that universe available to the next
generation of writers to come.
<@SLViehl> StarDoc began as the story of a fugitive. It has grown into
twenty more incarnations, not only for my series protagonist, but for
spin-offs -- I estimate I've got another thirty books I can write easily in
thi
s universe and never even bring in my clone doc.
<@SLViehl> When you think open-ender, think BIG. Create a universe you want
to stay in, because once you get on for the ride, you can't yell "I'm bored"
and jump off at the top.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Damon M. Lord> Is there a preferred number of books for hub or chronicle? I
presume open ended is more suited to chronicle
<june> Seems like authors often do smaller length series within the frame of
a single world. K. Kurtz comes to mind, or the earlier Pern books. Good
idea, or not?
<larkin> what went into creating a universe you knew you'd want to be in for
a long time?
<@SLViehl> I'd say hub goes well either very tight -- like a trilogy -- or an
open-ender. Most of the chronicle novel series I've read have been mid-length
<Crista> The idea I had for my work in progress was about three or four
trilogies. Is this a feasible plan or will that set-up make it harder to be
published?
<@SLViehl> I think it's great to do a trilogy that will lend itself to future
incarnations (Holly did this with Secret Texts.)
<Pantalia> What would you consider three trilogies with different
protagonists but all linked by a special something (power, ability?)
<Rang> mercedes lackey's books in the valdemar universe are basically lots of
trilogies strung together into an open ended series
<Damon M. Lord> How on earth do you come up with such a big concept that
it'll run until you are dead and your successors write a hundred more? Or is
that the 64,000 dollar Q?
<@SLViehl> Larkin, eveything I loved to write about. Warriors and medicine
and mutations and adventure.
<stacy> What are some of the conditions one must consider when playing with
open-ended novels?
<@SLViehl> Crista, I think groups of trilogies are great. Remember to keep
them stand-alone enough that you can sell anyone of them to an editor.
<larkin> do you know philip pullman's trilogy golden compass is the first
one.? After reading the third it feels like it needs another book. but he
seems to be done.
<@SLViehl> Pantalia, that's like Crista's project in the works -- groups of
trilogies. Trilogies are EXTREMELY popular, remember that. If they're
linked, they're a series without seeming to be a series.
<@SLViehl> Good point, Rang. There's a published example of what Crista and
Pantalia are talking about.
<Crista> My other question is, when a writer gets into an open ended series,
can they still persue other projects or are they stuck in that world by
reader demand? I have alot of ideas and, while I love my fantasy world,
I also have hard sci-fi I want to play with.
<@SLViehl> Damon, I think there's a open-ender in all of us. It's in finding
it inside you. What have you always wanted to be, since you were a kid? For
me, it was a doctor, and have adventures -- Nancy Drew, for examp
le, got to do all the really cool stuff. So I combined my love of medicine
and my secret longing to be an adventurous type, and StarDoc came along.
<Damon M. Lord> I've always wanted to be a writer (shrug)
<@SLViehl> Stacy, the concept has to keep going if it's going to fuel a
series, and you have to really love to write about and in that concept's
universe.
<Anon_65> Crista, Terry Pratchett writes mostly in the discworld but also has
a number of successful novels outside it.
<@SLViehl> larkin, Pullman has done what Holly did with Secret Texts --
opened up a door to future incarnations. He's done with the "trilogy" but
not that world, imho..
<Anon_65> This is Jehane, but it doesn't want to acknowledge me for some
reason
<larkin> hope so.
<@SLViehl> Crista, I know from experience that it can be difficult to get
readers into another universe once they like the one you've started off with.
I do alot with short stories on my site, to lure them into other wor
lds. I think you have to be determined not to be a one-universe writer, and
the rest will follow.
<Damon M. Lord> Truckers (or something like that - never was good at
remembering) trilogy by Pratchet springs to mind
<Anon_65> LIkewise, ANne McCAffrey has written some good non-Pern books
(Rowan, Killashandra)
<Rang> when writing an open-ended series...is it more important to change and
attempt different and newer things for variety in the series? or is it more
important to keep the same old, same old, so that readers will be
comfortable with what they expect?
<@SLViehl> Gary Jennings did a book on a guy who was a writer. Aztec. That
guy certainly didn't have a dull life, Damon.
<larkin> where are the short stories? where is your site?
<@SLViehl> For anyone who would like to visit:
http://www.sff.net/people/slviehl I post a new, free short story every
month. In return, readers tell me what they think of my ideas, and that's
how I know what to write n
ovels on.
<@SLViehl> Okay, teacher is calling a 5 minute bathroom break!
<Crista> That is a very, very good idea... about the posting short stories...
well, the bathroom, too.
<Cath> virtual paper airplane!
<Damon M. Lord> LOL
<Rang>
<Crista> LOL!
<@SLViehl> Sorry, I meant to do that at 10 pm but the time is slipping away
fast . . .
<Kaelle> virtual football
<Anne_Marble> Gonna play Dopewars for a few minutes.
<Damon M. Lord> Miss! Anne stole my notebook!
<Jenny> Virtual thumbwar with whoever's sitting next to me.
<Damon M. Lord> I'm telling the teacher! Jenny's poking me!
<Jenny> Am not!
<@SLViehl> Anne, give Damon back the notebook. Jenny, can you spell
detention?
<Cath> Um. Recess appears to be over.
<Anne_Marble> Hah, I retired a millionaire in the Caribbean!
<Pantalia> Have a great evening everyone. Suck her brain dry...She has more
to share than anyone I know.
<@SLViehl> No, I'm just hanging around. You've got three minutes.
<Crista> Ice cream time!
<@SLViehl> Hugs, Pantalia. Have fun tomorrow
<Pantalia> I scoff at that statement.
<Rang> take care, Pantalia....guess we shouldn't call you Panty, huh?
<Rang> goodnight
<@SLViehl> Okay, don't strangle Meg. I'd have to drive to prison to see you!
<Damon M. Lord> LOL@ Rang
<Pantalia> I was thinking more like poison. Harder to trace that way!
<Anne_Marble> Wow,the woman from "Nanny and the Professor" is now playing a
witch in the NBC soap "Passions"!
<Damon M. Lord> can't wait for the next part - i was reading about second
book syndrome the other day....
<Sarah> As long as we're not officially in session, Sheila, when does the
next book come out?
<@SLViehl> Shockball will be hitting the shelves November 9th.
<@SLViehl> Dream Mountain slightly before that -- October 10th, I think, for
your romance readers.
<jehane> HAve your novels been released in Australia?
<@SLViehl> No, darn it, but I'm working on overseas rights on the next
contract.
<@SLViehl> And now, back in session, everyone
<Damon M. Lord> SLV - when was your first book published?
<BJ Steeves> Any of your books make the SFBC?
<Damon M. Lord> oops back to class
<@SLViehl> Will answer you later on those, folks -- for now, the dreaded
SECOND BOOK SYNDROME
<@SLViehl> (drum roll)
<@SLViehl> Everyone has seen this happen to very talented authors.
<@SLViehl> They write a great book, and it gets published, and everyone goes,
"ALL RIGHT! MORE!"
<@SLViehl> Meanwhile, the author, who is stunned and basking in the usual
booksigning/publicity blitz/rave reviews glows, doesn't think about the
second book.
<@SLViehl> Then the contract deadline on the second book approaches and
author usually says something like, "OH, SH*T"
<@SLViehl> Author trots out the second book in between booksignings and
interviews. Confident he/she can write anything now.
<@SLViehl> and the second book ---BOMBS
<@SLViehl> Why?
<@SLViehl> Two words: POOR PLANNING
<@SLViehl> Remember, I have ice for blood. I plan everything.
<@SLViehl> But when I wrote the second book in the StarDoc series, I missed
the second book syndrome only because of my own ignorance about it.
<@SLViehl> I just figured, okay, I did the planet thing, now let's do
something really different.
<@SLViehl> Voila, Cherijo becomes a star ship doctor.
<@SLViehl> When an author assumes that they are so good that they don't have
to think about their writing, they inevitably fall into second book syndrome.
<@SLViehl> My ignorance, and the fact that I wrote 23 novels before I ever
got published, saved me.
<@SLViehl> Now, how do you avoid this?
<@SLViehl> Well, you can do what I did, and write two books before you ever
try to sell anything.
<@SLViehl> You can plan for second book syndrome -- say to yourself, "I'd
really like to do something different."
<@SLViehl> But I think the key is to put on those hard cold glasses again,
and analyze your work.
<@SLViehl> What are your strengths and weaknesses? Force yourself to address
the weaknesses in your work.
<@SLViehl> I can write about medicine all day long. I have very little idea
of what it's like on the other side, the patient side.
<@SLViehl> And I certainly have never chopped up anyone with a sword.
<@SLViehl> So I am right now, forcing myself to address those weaknesses in
my work. I don't know what a military person would feel like, having to
become basically an interstellar ambulance driver. So I'm writing a boo
k about it.
<@SLViehl> I've never harmed anyone in my life with a weapon. I'm writing
eight books about seven people who do it for a living.
<@SLViehl> I refuse to get comfortable and sit on StarDoc and my medical
knowledge and say "That's all I can do, all I can write about."
<@SLViehl> Other methods, more conventional, to combat second book syndrome:
<@SLViehl> Write the second book first. I wrote SD6 before I wrote SD5
because I wasn't sure I could write it.
<@SLViehl> Drop everything, or almost everything, you've used in book one and
then write book two with a whole new cast of characters.
<@SLViehl> Take your brilliant concept for book one, and divide in half/
<@SLViehl> Use cliffhanger endings (carefully) -- give the reader some
hanging threads to pick up in the next book.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Jenny> How do you divide a brilliant concept in half?
<Lynn> just that you just told me everything I'm doing currently. must mean
I'm doing something right.
<Sarah> Do you know if a character is going to die when you start, or does it
just happen?
<@SLViehl> Jenny, you stretch it out. If you've got a protagonist who enters
a new environment, struggles, and ends with having to move on or adjust,
stretch it out. Examine it more closely in your prose. Add timeline
-- as long as it remains interesting to the reader.
<@SLViehl> I plan to kill everyone who dies in my novels. I just don't let
the reader have any idea I'm going to kill them.
<Crista> Is there a danger in going in a completely new direction with the
second book from the first? Could you lose any readers from the first book
because the second is TOO different?
<Lynn> add another point of view....make things even messier.
<@SLViehl> Not if your writing style is consistent, Crista. If you've got
book one in you, you've got book two. You've got to not fall into the trap
of writing the same book over and over, or trading on the merits of th
e first.
<@SLViehl> What happened with me was weird -- timing is also everything in
publishing. Two months before my first novel was published, the only other
popular author of medical SF passed away.
<@SLViehl> So I get away with a lot because I write about a topic very few SF
authors can do with any knowledge or authority.
<@SLViehl> I'm also incorporating romance genre techniques into SF, which has
not been done with any great success before because of the universal contempt
toward romance in the SF genre.
<@SLViehl> But somehow, I get away with that, too.
<@SLViehl> The danger of using cliffhanger ending, I can't stress enough.
<@SLViehl> Editors hate them.
<@SLViehl> And you have to be really good at composing them.
<@SLViehl> But if there's enough momentum in the series, you will catch more
readers with that cliffhanger hook
<@SLViehl> than the usual standalone net.
<@SLViehl> I'm running out of time, so I will ask the class -- do you want to
continue this next month, same Friday, or should I do a quick runthrough on
the rest of the material?
<larkin> up to you
<Damon M. Lord> i'l go with what the majority says
<Rang> ditto
<Crista> Continue, if you can. I want more than a quick runthrough.
<june> I'd really like to take time with it, personally.
<James> I'd vote to continue next month...it's too interesting to rush
<Sarah> Ditto
<Jenny> Ditto.
<gayle> Doesn't matter to me.
<Kaelle> your choice, but I'd like same bat cave, etc
<@SLViehl> Okay. So I'm going back to Holly and ask for the first Friday in
October to continue our discussion. Overall, any questions on the material
we've covered?
<larkin> thank you. Learned alot.
<Rang> Thanks for giving so generously of your time, Sheila
<Jinx> Can we come to next class with questions on this part of the class?
<James> Not now -- I like time to stew on it, so I'll probably have a bunch
next time...
<june> No questions right now. Have to think about all this some, I think.
<Kaelle> It's been great, Sheila. Thank you.
<Crista> Thanks alot. This class has been better than most of my college
classes.
<@SLViehl> Sure. I've also set up an e-mail exclusively for this class:
SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<Rang> is it better to write six thin books, or 3 thick books in a series, if
it's the same amount of material?
<@SLViehl> (Sure on bringing on the questions from here to the next class, I
mean.)
<BJ Steeves> Will transcripts be posted? Lost the connection at the break.
<june> Wonderful class. Thank you.
<Damon M. Lord> great class
<Diana> Thank you! You've opened some doors in my mind. That's a good thing!
<Damon M. Lord> TY
<gayle> thank you
<@SLViehl> Rang, I think it's best to write whatever works for you. Thick
books are harder to sell, though.:) "
<James> Yes -- thank you very much for the time and effort.
<@SLViehl> If this all works out with my friends, transcripts will be posted.
<jehane> thanks, will have to look again at my WIP
<Damon M. Lord> any one else taking a transcript? i'll cut and paste into the
body of the e-mail if you want me to take it, SLV
<@SLViehl> And thank you all for giving me this chance to talk shop. I
really enjoyed it.
<Cath> I add my thanks.
<Jenny> Thank you, very much.
<BJ Steeves> Looking fprward to the rest of the classes, many Thanks!!!
<@SLViehl> If someone could e-mail me the transcript, I'll post it on
my web site.
<Rang> Sheila...do u want an in text paste? or attachment?
<Rang> any format in particular if attachment?
<@SLViehl> Text paste would be best, Rang. My computer hates
attachments.
<Rang> k
<@SLViehl> I'll also set up a class discussion thread for everyone to
exchange views.
<Jinx> I'll send a backup, but I lost some of mine through
disconnects
<@SLViehl> Not sure where, but I'll let you know.
<@SLViehl> Thanks, Jinx
<Damon M. Lord> i got it all - sending as the body of text in e-mail
now to the address you gave
<larkin> until next time wonder if i'll have hub or chronicle dreams
<@SLViehl> Thank you, Damon.
end of transcript part two