<@SLViehl> Thanks for hanging in with us, Andi. E-mail if you need
anything.
<PaulA> I'm gonna try to hang till the end but if I go just assume I've gone
to bed
<Jehane> Sheila, how do SF thrillers sell?
<Andi> Thanks, Sheila, but unless you do want a classroom full of zzzzzz's,
I'd best get going.
<Andi> Night all!
<PaulA> night Andi
<Robert> Night, Andi
<Kaelle> Night Andi. Sleep well.
<Valerie> Hope you're feeling better soon, Andi.
<Jehane> NIght Andi
<PaulA> (coffee and classical music are keeping me away at these ungodly
hours ^_^)
<@SLViehl> Jehane, I think SF thrillers do very well, as long as they aren't
science info-dumps. Only a few authors, like Greg Bear, can really pull off
a novel like Darwin's Radio.
<Robert> It's only ten here for me, a little late per my current schedule
but this is waking me up.
<@SLViehl> Which, BTW, was #1 last July, when I was #2.
<PaulA> 3am here ^_^
<Jehane> Haven't read it yet, but intend to
<Valerie> I'm the lucky one; it's only 7.
<Jehane> 11:30am for me
<Robert> And odd she mentioned Space Opera... I have one planned, literally
a libretto set in outer space, my comment on the old tag.
<Kaelle> I like Robert Asprin & Linda Evans' time travel series.
<Jehane> I like space opera
<Valerie> Question during the break: Terry Pratchett has about a billion
books on the store shelves; any recommendations on which to start with?
<Jehane> GUards Guards
<PaulA> I heard Neil Gaiman has writen a Sci fi type story called American
Gods I'm a fan of Gaiman has anyone read this yet?
<Jehane> Or the colour of magic
<@SLViehl> I don't read Pratchett, can anyone answer this one?
<Valerie> Thanks, Jehane!
<Jehane> I've read all of them!
<Robert> They're all good and they're all that funny. I loved Guards Guards
<@SLViehl> Gaiman's American Gods is being very heavily marketed over here.
<gayle> Val--another west coast person?
<Jehane> But you do need to start int he right place, because some of the
threads are confusing otherwise
<Valerie> oh, yeah! Up north in Seattle. You?
<Jenny> The Fifth Elephant was great.
<gayle> Santa Rosa Cal
<gayle> near SF
<Jehane> Yeah, but if you haven't read the previous guards novels it can be
confusing
<Valerie> Jehane: so Guards! Guards! first? I'm adding it to my library
list now.
<PaulA> I'll check out GFaiman's novel when i get the chance I think his
graphic novels are very good, much more mature than the usual comic type
works. Death and Sandman are great but his Lucifer GN was something else
<Jehane> Valerie: yes, then read the Guards series in order - Men at arms,
feet of clay, jingo and fifth elephant
<Jehane> check out the pratchett/gaiman good omens - my favourite
<Valerie> Awesome. Thanks Jehane!
<Jehane> no worries
<@SLViehl> Okay, are we all back and ready to hit Alternate History?
<Robert> Aye
<Valerie> yes, ma'am.
<James> Yep
<Kaelle> yes
<PaulA> roger
<larkin> more or less yes
<Jenny> Yes.
<Jinx> Ready!
<@SLViehl> The idea behind parallel/alternate universe SF is that history
changes from our own recorded events.
<gayle> almost
<@SLViehl> Whoops, we'll wait, gayle
<Diana> yep, ready
<gayle> okay...now I am sticky fingers and all
<@SLViehl> For example, Robert Harris's "Fatherland" in which Hitler is
victorious, Eric Flint's 1632, in which a 21st century mining town is
dropped into 17th century Germany, during the 30 Year War
<@SLViehl> or Harrison's "Eden" series, where the dinosaurs don't get wiped
out, but become the dominant humanoid life form on the planet.
<Robert> The Hammer and the Cross was very good.
<@SLViehl> I recently wrote a story for Eric Flint's 1632 anthology, due out
in 2003, and knew the research had to be meticulous.
<@SLViehl> Thus I went to town on archaic medical practices and now know
more about 17th century anatomist William Harvey than I ever, ever wanted to
know.
<@SLViehl> I missed two small details in the story -- the size of a
returning character's hands, and whether period farmers would actually burn
witches at the stake with firewood.
<@SLViehl> Eric called me on them, because he knew he fans would.
<@SLViehl> These readers are all heavily invested history buffs, and you
CANNOT fudge your way through the research.
<@SLViehl> But alternate history is a marvelous way to shake the dust off
the history books and explore new worlds within our own.
<@SLViehl> If you love Barbara Tuchman, spend all year getting ready for Ren
Faires, and own a replica sword, alternate history may be your baby and you
just don't realize it.
<@SLViehl> There are very lucrative ways to raid the past for potential AH
stories.
<@SLViehl> The Civil War, WWII, and the American/Indian conflicts have been
done to death.
<@SLViehl> Yet there are so many centuries of history left to explore.
<@SLViehl> What would have happened if Rome hadn't bee n overrun by the
Goths? What if the Aztecs had imprisoned Cortez, learned Spanish
technology, and go on over to conquer Europe?
<@SLViehl> Think of all the major events that have shaped our world --
they're yours for the taking, through AH.
<@SLViehl> Now on to SF Magazine Markets
<@SLViehl> Published authors are generally selling short stories (up to 5K
words) and novellas (up to 10K words) to four leading SF periodicals:
<@SLViehl> Analog
<@SLViehl> Asimov's
<@SLViehl> Fantasy and Science Fiction
<@SLViehl> Realms of Fantasy.
<@SLViehl> They're selling because the arena of the SF short story has
become as important, if not more, than the novel market, on the awards
circuit.
<@SLViehl> Oh, and they can't seem to sell their novels, either.
<@SLViehl> Why?
<@SLViehl> Novelists write novels. Publishers buy them because they're
marketable. These are the two rules the dead guys forgot to teach these
people.
<@SLViehl> I've been told by several multi-published novelists that SF
authors view the current market as "aggressively aimed at the idiots out
there." They blame media tie-ins for polluting the literary quality of the
genre and taking up half the market slots.
<@SLViehl> This is how they perpetuate their inner mythology that they are,
in reality, SF novelists.
<@SLViehl> The readers are simply "the rabble" who don't appreciate their
brilliance.
<@SLViehl> However, here's the reality of the situation: writing for the
market, as unpleasant as that seems to the SF authorial community, means
writing books that people want to read.
<@SLViehl> Not writing books about how brilliant you are and sneering at
your audience in the process.
<@SLViehl> SF authors and SF magazine editors are using survival tactics and
indulging in very unhealthy desperation, imho.
<@SLViehl> Naturally a pro wants to keep their name in print, and certainly
writing short stories is nothing to be ashamed of.
<@SLViehl> I write about 25 a year myself.
<@SLViehl> However, these magazines are shutting down.
<@SLViehl> Science Fiction Age and Amazing Stories, just last year.
<@SLViehl> The top four mags are down 10% in circulation.
<@SLViehl> Even SF-affiliated tie in mags, like Cinescape (for sale) and SCI
FI (changed ownership) and Starlog (financial trouble) are headed for the
pits.
<@SLViehl> Here's my take on why published authors can't sell their novels
<@SLViehl> They don't know when to cut their losses and admit the genre of
the 60's and 70's is gone. The dead writers are dead. We have to move on.
<@SLViehl> Your actual chances of getting magazine published --
<@SLViehl> At the present, one of the four magazines I mentioned has a 2
year backlog of bought stories to publish. That's inventory of over 120
pieces already bought and paid for that haven't made it into print.
<@SLViehl> They do not need you.
<@SLViehl> There is an inner circle, even tighter, in the short story
circles. They don't want upstart writers, they want safe, traditional
stuff.
<@SLViehl> Think homogenized SF.
<@SLViehl> As aspiring writers, it is in your best interest to become
politically motivated. Look at what toeing the line has done for writers
like Connie Willis and Lois McMaster Bujold. I don't have to worship at the
SF shrine, because I have another genre to earn my bucks from. I also post
my short stories for free, on my web site, as a draw for readers.
<@SLViehl> I don't have to act like most SF authors, so you can't imitate
what I'm doing. I can say I'm not a fan of SF and get away with it, because
I'm a dumb romance author.
<@SLViehl> You do not want to do this if you're only going to write SF
<@SLViehl> Actual circulation and payment rates from SF mags:
<@SLViehl> Analog -- claims 48K circulation. Less, according to other
figures. They pay an average of $500 per story.
<@SLViehl> Asimov's -- circulation 31K. Average pay is $450 -- $500 per
story
<@SLViehl> F& SF -- circulation 30K, Pays about $500 average per story
also.
<@SLViehl> Now, I'm going to show you why that's important.
<@SLViehl> If you write 24 stories every year (one every 2 weeks) with a
time investment of 12 hours per story, that's 288 hours. If an editor buys
one story (and you'll be very lucky if he/she does) you make, roughly $1.04
per hour for your pains.
<@SLViehl> You also have 23 unsold stories sitting on a shelf.
<@SLViehl> Now, take the same time -- 288 hours -- and write a novel.
<@SLViehl> Standard contract advance on a SF novel -- $5000.00
<@SLViehl> That's $17.36 per hour for your work.
<@SLViehl> Admittedly, selling a novel is tougher, but which would you
rather earn in a year? $500.00 or $5000.00
<@SLViehl> It's very easy to get caught up in the hype about how important
short stories are validating the pros in the SF genre.
<@SLViehl> They've been unable to sell their novels for so long it is the
only game in town for some of them, now.
<@SLViehl> Critical acclaim and SFWA membership is now being showered on
these short story writers, and some of them have never even attempted to
write a novel.
<@SLViehl> However cruel and heartless this sounds, here's the reality
again:
<@SLViehl> If you're not writing novels, you're not a novelist. You can't
compete with me. You can't call yourself a novelist until you're selling
books.
<@SLViehl> It's up to you to decide which direction you want to go. I say,
go for the novels, go for the contracts, go for the real money.
<@SLViehl> Forget the piddly stuff.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Valerie> I'm not familiar with the writers you've mentioned: are you using
Bujold and Willis as good or bad examples?
<@SLViehl> Bujold and Willis, in my opinion, are two very smart ladies. Any
writer would do well to follow their example, especially in the political
end of things.
<@SLViehl> I do not recommend anyone follow MY example.
<Jenny> What do you mean, the political end?
<PaulA> central themes to novels, could a series of books be based around
the same world and yet change in the central theme each time, e.g history of
world in one. Religion in another.
<larkin> i'm very interested in alchemy. Would that fit into alternate
hitstory?
<@SLViehl> Going to SF conferences, writing politically acceptable SF,
toeing the line, worshipping at the SF shrine, Jenny. That kind of thing.
Willis is also a master at campaigning for awards, and wins a lot of them
that way.
<@SLViehl> Sure Paul, that would work. Change itself would be the central
theme.
<gayle> what if someone is into science fantasy than science fiction?
Especially if science isn't their strong subject
<@SLViehl> Alchemy had a big place in many points in history, larkin. I
think it would work in fine.
<@SLViehl> Gayle, I'm a complete moron when it comes to Science, but very
savvy in medicine. I focused on what I know, so I'm able to dodge or fudge
my way through the details.
<@SLViehl> Sharon Lee told me "Never explain how the ship works unless you
have to" and I made that my golden rule.
<gayle> I was thinking along the lines of McCaffrey, Bradley, and Lackey...
<@SLViehl> McCaffrey has gotten a lot of criticism for the lack of
"believable science" in her books.
<Kaelle> Huh. and how many books did those criticizers publish?
<gayle> that may be true BUT she sells her books!!!
<BlairB> When editors look at novel submissions, is the author more likely
to be published with magazine publishing credits?
<Jehane> Wondering the same thing myself, Blair
<Jehane> Ok, we've lost Sheila
<Kaelle> apparently Sheila got kicked off
<larkin> i did to...
<BlairB> I didn't think that question was offensive...
<Jehane>
<Kaelle> lol
<Jehane> HAs anyone read Ice Station by MAtthew Reilly?
<BlairB> nope
<Jehane> It's a thriller, not my usual sort of thing but it's very good so
far
<BlairB> cool, might have to check it out.
<PaulA> more a fantasy guy really...
<gayle> No, but I am reading Diplomacy of Wolves by Holly. pretty good but
personally would call it a fantasy
<BlairB> WB Sheila
<Kaelle> wb Sheila
<PaulA> wb
<Jehane> Same, usually, but this one's set in Anatractica so...
<@SLViehl> Sorry, guys, got knocked off line
<Jehane> wb sheila
<Kaelle> BlairB thought he offended you..
<gayle> yeah...we noticed.....
<@SLViehl> Offend away! :0
<@SLViehl> What questions did I miss?
<Valerie> I'm sorry; I have to skedaddle. Thank you so much, Sheila. Great
info! I'll catch the rest in the transcript.
<gayle> Blair asked if magazine submisssioned helped get you published.
<@SLViehl> Thanks for joining us, Valerie
<gayle> bye Valerie
<BlairB> When an editor looks at a novel submission, is the author more
likely to be published if he has prior magazine credits?
<Jehane> Bye VAlerie
<@SLViehl> I didn't get magazine published until after my first 2 novels
were accepted, Blair.
<@SLViehl> I think a SF editor will give more weight to an author who is
published in short stories than one who isn't, too.
<@SLViehl> So many authors can't get published any other way these days.
<Kaelle> So, what you might be saying then, is write what you like, but
target the market?
<@SLViehl> Always target the market when you're writing what you like.
Adapt yourself and your story to the market needs.
<@SLViehl> This isn't hard. I was able to cut out a lot of the romance in
my SF novels (though it hurt) because the market wouldn't stand for that
much mush.
<@SLViehl> According to my editor, anyway.
<@SLViehl> Compromising now means a career in the future when you CAN write
whatever you like.
<gayle> but what about the sub genre of Science fiction romance?
<PaulA> and if the market changes you adapt too even if it isn't what you
are used to writing you learn to change with it right
<@SLViehl> Gayle, there are two categories of SF romance -- futuristic, and
"space opera" -- space opera sells. Futuristics would, but they aren't
being published because publishers don't believe the market will justify
them.
<@SLViehl> We have to be adaptable, Paul, or SF is going to die out, just
like horror did. It's really teetering on the brink right now, with
publishers marketing Bear and other big names as NOT SF but mainstream or
thriller novels. It's like SF is a bad name.
<gayle> then what would you call Catherine Asaro?
<@SLViehl> Catherine Asaro is definitely hard SF with romance subplot.
She's got an established rep, and although she's doing more romance in some
of her releases, she's still consider hard SF by the establishment.
<gayle> I have a 12 year old shadow wondering if class is over so we can do
our movie night...,
<@SLViehl> I'd like to see more writers getting submissions out to Baen and
Warner Aspect, and more SF romance writers hitting Tor/Forge
<@SLViehl> I'm just going to do Q&A from here on out, if that's okay with
everyone?
<BlairB> sure
<James> No worries
<larkin> have to run, thank you Shiela
<@SLViehl> So go have movie night, Gayle, and thanks for joining us. You,
too, larkin.
<Jehane> bye gayle and larkin
<Kaelle> Section IV - are you continuing this sometime?
<PaulA> that is okay I'm really awake even though it is so late/early
<gayle> I will...Star Trek first contact...the Patriot...fifth
element...'night all
<Robert> Night, gayle
<@SLViehl> I'm forever running out of time, aren't I? Yes, if everyone is
interested, I'll pick this up on the third Friday night in October.
<Kaelle> ooh Fifth Element, nite gayle
<James> Bye Gayle
<BlairB> lol, sure
<Jinx> That's fine with me. I'd like to hear it all.
It's a lot of
material to cover.
<gayle> I'll be there...
<Kaelle> yep
<@SLViehl> I keep meaning to cut things short but there's so much I want to
discuss. Obsessed with writing, that's me.
<Kaelle> nah...lol
<@SLViehl> Any last questions?
<PaulA> IS Alternative history really worth it? I mean the time compared to
writing say a fantasy with minimal research must be much greater
<@SLViehl> Paul, if you hit on a fantastic twist, yes, I think its worth it.
<@SLViehl> But the run-of-the-mill, been done before ideas aren't going to
cut it on the AH market
<BlairB> are there short story markets for other genres?
<James> Sheila, may I ask a question that relates more to your novel series
development class?
<@SLViehl> Sure, Blair, which genre are you interested in -- I've probably
tried them all.
<@SLViehl> Go ahead, James.
<BlairB> well, i think Romance, Mystery/Thriller.
<PaulA> I ws think ing SE Asia, lots of historical conflict lots of scope
for development but I would need to reaserch a lot because I have no idea
where I would start. I have 2 novels in the pipeline so the time would be
too much, maybe in a year or so
<@SLViehl> Mary Higgins Clark quarterly collection mystery periodical --
300K circulation. Excellent opportunity for a short mystery story.
<@SLViehl> Romance mags, I have to think about for a minute. Usually
women's periodicals, like Good Housekeeping, like short romance pieces.
Also excellent circulation and payment rates.
<James> Thanks - I was wondering about the development phase. If you're
worried you haven't developed a universe rich enough to last for many
novels, what should you check to see if you've left it out? Character
diversity? Diversity of rival interest groups?
<@SLViehl> Paul, with SE Asia, you'd have to pick an epic event in their
history, and give it a major twist. Like, what if Gengis Khan took over
Eastern Europe and was never defeated? That kind of twist.
<PaulA> I was thinking the opium wars
<@SLViehl> On creation of universe to last the length of a series, you have
to have running threads that can remain unresolved through the course of
many novels. Strong, central-theme type threads that adhere also to your
hub or chronicle theme.
<@SLViehl> These can be character-oriented or plot-oriented.
<Jehane> Paul - try and get hold of histories written by non-westerners as
well.
<James> So a richly developed timeline, big sweeps of political movements,
large scale conflicts, that sort of thing?
<@SLViehl> Paul, on the opium wars, would your twist have a major effect on
our history record? Think big impact, like Hitler winning WWII. That's
what AH readers really like.
<@SLViehl> Exactly, James. All marching alongside your central core theme,
stewing and simmering, ready to explode at any given moment.
<@SLViehl> Usually at the worst possible moment.
<PaulA> Yes great. I have so many ideas and so little time to write them all
^_^
<James> Thanks for that - I've been playing at Universe creation since your
last class, and that will help
<@SLViehl> Hit the notes and save them. I have an entire filing cabinet of
novels YET to be written idea stuff.
<Jinx> Is the fantasy genre more open to new ideas, moreso that SF seems to
be?
<@SLViehl> Just one more thing on that subject James -- when you're creating
your timeline, remembering the reader will have to juggle everything in
his/her head. Keep your threads strong, easy to remember.
<PaulA> I think there are new ideas in everything you just have to have a
twisted outlook on life
<@SLViehl> Jinx, fantasy is extremely open compared to SF. Fantasy
continues to gain market points every year, so publishers are naturally more
inclined to buy it.
<@SLViehl> There you go, Paul. You've just exposed the novelists' deep,
dark secret -- we're all twisted!
<James> Gotcha - don't focus on the ripples of history, but the tides?
<BlairB> Okay i have to know... after so many rejection letters, do they get
easier to receive? Did you keep them all?
<@SLViehl> Right, James. We remember the tidal waves better.
<@SLViehl> It was never easy to open those rejection letters. I hated them.
They ticked me off. But I never got depressed as much as more determined to
make it.
<@SLViehl> I meant to burn all those letters when I got published, but I
decided to keep them. Every time I get a little too cocky, I take out the
boxes and look at them.
<@SLViehl> The trick is to separate your self-esteem from your work.
<@SLViehl> They aren't rejecting you, they're rejecting a thing you did.
<@SLViehl> You can always do another thing.
<@SLViehl> It helps to be as stubborn as a mule, too.
<PaulA> At my stage I would be pleased to just be submitting work even if I
were getting rejections, after a wile I may get slightly peeved I was not
bieng recognised
<James> Does it help that you have so many projects on the go - too busy
with the new to worry overmuch about the old?
<PaulA> okay I'm gonna get some sleep 4am is way too late, g'night
<Jenny> Good night, Paul.
<Kaelle> 'night!
<BlairB> g'nite paul
<Robert> G'night Paul
<James> See you Paul
<@SLViehl> I've always worked on five or six novels at once (goodnight,
Paul!) James. I've always sent out a bunch of submissions
<Jehane> I had that problem, then I decided to focus on a couple of projects
only and store my other ideas for later.
<Jehane> Bye Paul
<@SLViehl> and always had something out there. I also sent out new
submissions whenever rejections came in.
<James> Do you skip between your five or six projects, or work at them
serially?
<@SLViehl> It depends on how much you can juggle.
<@SLViehl> At the moment, I'm writing three novels simultaneously -- but I
don't recommend that to anyone who isn't suffering from multiple personality
disorder, like me. <g>
<Jinx> Sheesh. I'm having trouble just figuring out one.
<Jenny> How long will it take you to finish them all?
<@SLViehl> I write a book in about eight weeks now, Jenny, but remember I
work 12 to 16 hours a day.
<@SLViehl> I'll have all 3 finished by December 1st.
<Kaelle> eek
<BlairB> 7days a week?
<James> Does experience make that sort of thing (keeping multiple novels
straight) easier? Or is it a skill you just have or don't?
<@SLViehl> Seven days a week, 48 weeks a year. I take December off.
<Robert> Sounds like a cool schedule...
<@SLViehl> I get bored easily, I think that's what keeps me bouncing between
projects. I live working on SF in the morning, romance in the afternoon,
editing at night.
<Kaelle> With a kidlet too?
<@SLViehl> Last year I wrote over a million words. With two kids in
elementary school.
<Kaelle> yeesh
<James> Yow - you've earned your success.
<BlairB> how long does it take to go from acceptance to print?
<Jinx> Excuse me a moment while I pick my jaw up off the floor....
<@SLViehl> It's been my dream, all my life, to do this. I love the work.
<@SLViehl> Blair, I got my first contract in late '98. The first book of
that contract didn't get released until 1/2000.
<@SLViehl> So figure abuot 12 to 18 months.
<@SLViehl> abuot=about
<Kaelle> which reminds me - when is StarDoc 4 going to be out?
<@SLViehl> I'm also a mercenary harpy who intends to be on the NYT BSL
within the next five years.
<@SLViehl> Shockball, SD4, is due to be released 11/9/01
<Kaelle> woohoo
<@SLViehl> If you want success, you have to hunt it down and jump on it,
Kaelle.
<Kaelle> Dang, but I'm glad you're such a speedy writer!
<Jehane> what's the first one called?
<@SLViehl> The first SF?
<Jehane> the first stsardoc
<Jehane> stardoc
<@SLViehl> "StarDoc" was the title of the first book.
<Jehane> thanks, might see if my bookseller can get it in
<@SLViehl> I'm working on those Australian rights, Jehane.
<Jehane> great!
<@SLViehl> Well, folks, any last questions?
<Kaelle> Oh, and I wanted to tell, that I just had to agree with your editor
on the title of "Endurance" because, boy, did she endure!
<@SLViehl> Yep, got a lot of flack for that book. Wait 'til they get hold
of Shockball. The fertilizer is going to fly. <g>
<Kaelle> <rubbing hands in anticipation>
<BlairB> I could bombard you with questions all night, but i think i've
leeched all i can for now..
<@SLViehl> You're all welcome to e-mail me, anytime.
<Jinx> Sheila, thank you again for your time, and for sharing your knowledge
with us.
<@SLViehl> I've got a class e-mail set up: SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<Kaelle> Thank you, tons!
<Jenny> Ditto what Jinx said. Thank you.
<Jehane> thanks, Sheila!
<Robert> Thanks for the class, Sheila... it helped a lot !
<@SLViehl> Thanks for talking shop with me, ladies and gentleman. I love
doing this!
<James> Seconding the thanks- these classes have been brilliant.
<Kaelle> Night, everybody!
<@SLViehl> Hope to see you all again. Next week we're doing SF
Worldbuilding, if you're interested.
<Jinx> Night, all. See you next time.
<@SLViehl> Goodnight all!
<James> I'll be there! Goodnight all!
<Robert> G'night all oooh yeah, one of my favorite hobbies that... hub
theme is exploration...
<Kaelle> Til next week, then.
<Jehane> bye everyone
end of part two