Professional Writing Workshops at HollyLisle.com
9/28/01 -- SF World Building
<Keener> Wow, boredom does weird things to people...
<gayle> especially when you're extra early to class
<Keener> lol, yup
<Jinx> Evening!
<@SLViehl> Hi everyone!
<BJ Steeves> Evening All!
<BlairB> good evening
<gayle> hello
<@SLViehl> I'm going to start my chamomile IV, before the session gets going
. . .
<@SLViehl> BRB
<James> Hi All
<gayle> hello
<Jenny> Hello.
<@SLViehl> It's storming where I am, folks, so if I get knocked off wait for
me to return.
<BJ Steeves> I'm sitting in a middle of an electrical storm right now.
<BlairB> want me to take transcript again?
<@SLViehl> Would you, Blair? (I'm going to have to name you in my will)
<BlairB> yup, can do
<Jinx> Will there be transcripts available for the last two classes as well?
<@SLViehl> My web master just got them posted on my site.
<Jinx> Oh, great, thank you. I hadn't checked yet today.
<@SLViehl> I'd post them on Holly's site but I can't do cut and paste for
some reason
<@SLViehl> One question for the group -- it's pretty much a given this
workshop will take more than one session,
<@SLViehl> so would you all be interested in continuing it on the fourth
Friday in October?
<BlairB> lol, history repeats?
<gayle> yes
<James> Absolutely, yes.
<Kae> Sure
<Jenny> Yes.
<Jinx> Yes, please
<@SLViehl> I also want to try something different tonight, give you the
opportunity to ask more questions.
<larkincreating_> yes. it takes centuries to create worlds
<BlairB> fer shur
<@SLViehl> This is also one of my most favorite subjects, so I'm extremely
long-winded on it.
<BJ Steeves> You're the Boss
<larkincreating_> good
<larkincreating_> how do i get creating off of larkin?
<@SLViehl> Great, thanks. I'm going to wait a few more minutes, then we'll
have at it.
<BlairB> delete it in the name box - hit enter
<larkin> did it work?
<larkin> thanks
<BlairB> no problemo
<@SLViehl> Blair is our Net God
<larkin> muchas gracias
<BlairB> denada
<larkin> of all the worlds or just this one?
<BlairB> I do it all day too...
<@SLViehl> the worlds my computer won't conquer, anyway
<BlairB> do we need any art supplies for this?
<@SLViehl> Just a strong back and lots of elbow grease
<larkin> mental ambuscades with a twist of cobalt blue
<BlairB> <looking for back brace>
<@SLViehl> world building is tough. Okay, I'm going to hand out tardy slips
from here on out . . .
<@SLViehl> but let's get moving.
<Diana> (oops, I tried to be quiet. Sorry!)
<@SLViehl> Welcome to Science Fiction/Fantasy World Building
<@SLViehl> I'm S.L. (Sheila) Viehl, and you've heard the rest of the speech,
I'm sure.
<@SLViehl> Tonight we're going to talk about one of the most critical areas
of SF/Fantasy
<@SLViehl> so I want to give everyone a chance to ask whatever questions
they may have.
<@SLViehl> I'll be going over the material, but calling for questions more
often
<@SLViehl> so when you see QUESTIONS, fire away.
<@SLViehl> Let's start with Playing God
<@SLViehl> I set myself up as God and have created a couple of universes
that work very well for me.
<@SLViehl> They're all based on my S.E.E. theory
<@SLViehl> Simple, Enjoyable, and Expandable
<@SLViehl> By keeping the details relatively simple and epic, and based on
what I think would be the universe of the future, I can set up mental house
in this place.
<@SLViehl> That's the simple part.
<@SLViehl> Enjoyable means populating the universe with things I love -- in
my case, the color blue, medicine, large men with long hair . . .
<@SLViehl> they all make it fun for me to stay in my universe.
<@SLViehl> The expandable part comes into play by creative application of
the elemnts -- making sure I give the reader some, but not all of the plot
line, details, destinies,etc.
<@SLViehl> These are the 3 things that will aid you greatly in making your
universe work for you, imho
<@SLViehl> Other author's universes --
<@SLViehl> Holly Lisle, imo, is the Frank Lloyd Wright of worldbuilding.
<@SLViehl> Best example of this (to date) -- The Byzantine/Renaissance world
of Matrin in The Secret Texts.
<@SLViehl> Anne Bishop rewired social hierarchy with the gender-bending
magic of her Black Jewels trilogy, although to a much simpler degree.
<@SLViehl> J.D. Robb takes us to the immediate Earth future with her "In
Death" series, and it's both a rough and idealized ride.
<@SLViehl> What struck me the most about these three authors is the unique
qualities they've invested in their universes. These places are well-known
and very personal to them, but also have great appeal to their audiences.
<@SLViehl> So, what do you keep, or scrap, when building your universe?
<@SLViehl> I think it's always a good thing for an author to know TOO much
about their universe.
<@SLViehl> You don't have to put it in the book, but you need to live in
this place. Thus, everything matters to you.
<@SLViehl> The reader, on the other hand, needs the headlines of what you
know.
<@SLViehl> With characters, think triple play -- occupational, situational,
and emotional.
<@SLViehl> Duncan Reever is a telepathic linguist on the run from the
Hsktskt and has never learned human emotions.
<@SLViehl> I've just covered Duncan's entire personal development in one
book, in one sentence.
<@SLViehl> with setting and plot, keep as much minute detail to a minimum.
Think big picture.
<@SLViehl> Select the most dramatic, easily remembered aspects of your
setting and plot, and present those. Weave the details in the background.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<@SLViehl> Ack, no questions?
<Kae> So you do your worldbuilding before you write the story? All of it?
<@SLViehl> <g>
<@SLViehl> I do the basic world building first, then I add on, Kae.
Constantly.
<Kae> ah
<@SLViehl> Like starting with a ranch house and making it into a mansion
<Kae> Or like a salad <g>
<larkin> do you just start writing it down and then see what works and what
doesn't?
<BJ Steeves> Do you do the building by hand? Or do you use any software
tools for help?
<@SLViehl> I had an idea of what I thought the future would be, larkin. I
started there, and began adding things I liked to write about.
<larkin> what i mean is how do you make it congruent?
<@SLViehl> BJ, I use plain old pen and paper. I know there are some great
software programs out there, though.
<BlairB> is the idea for the Author to know too much, and to give the reader
just enough to keep them coming back? or do you want to provide all the
details to the reader too?
<@SLViehl> larkin, I think consistency comes as you're editing and
re-editing, if that's what you mean.
<Robert> If you set it down for a while, do you have to reread it again from
page one to remember where you were?
<larkin> maybe i'm thinking more of creating a fantasy world? what works and
what's over the top?
<@SLViehl> Blair, you should never give too much detail to the reader too
soon. Hold back as much as you can in a standalone, and carry over threads
to the next book, if a series.
<Diana> how much do you need to know about the big stuff in your world, like
society, politics, technology..?
<@SLViehl> With fantasy, larkin, you have much more room to spread your
wings. Science and logic break down in the fantasy world. You're still
required to make sense of it all, but only limited in creative ways by the
boundaries of imagination.
<Jinx> I'm not sure I understand what you were saying about the world vs.
the characters -- can you elaborate a bit for me, please?
<@SLViehl> Diana, I have whole blocks on social structure, religion, etc --
we'll be tackling those directly.
<@SLViehl> Jinx, when you flesh out a character for the reader, depending on
how many characters you have, you have to present info that the reader can
carry through the story in memory.
<Diana> thanks
<@SLViehl> With characters, it's usually that threesome I mentioned -- what
they do for a living, what's their immediate problem, and what's their
emotional state.
<gayle> what about those of us who 'see' the story first and a rough outline
of the planet/universe. That's where I am right now...filling in the holes
<@SLViehl> With setting and plot you can be more detailed -- deliver more
information to the reader, because the setting doesn't have to have dialogue
and action and decision-maker moments, etc.
<@SLViehl> Gayle, I think your perspective works too. You start out with
the dilemma, and now you have to frame it, rather than the other way around.
<@SLViehl> In some ways, Gayle's tackling the story more logically than
someone like me, who invents the universe first then goes and plays in it.
<gayle> yeah, but sometimes it gets so overwhelming
<@SLViehl> Worldbuilding is an ocean. You've got to relax and keep moving.
<@SLViehl> Now on to scope and scaling --
<@SLViehl> Sheila's first rule of writing: readers are not writers.
<@SLViehl> Readers don't care about how many centimeters the fuller of a
thrusting sword extends from blade to tip/
<@SLViehl> They don't care what a fuller is.
<@SLViehl> I do, because I know it lends structural strength to the blade,
and blood tends to run down it onto the hand of the guy who is sticking the
blade into someone's abdomen.
<@SLViehl> My task is to get my fascinating info across without boring my
reader.
<@SLViehl> I have a secret weapon I use to do this.
<@SLViehl> I tell my kids about a particular scene or chapter.
<@SLViehl> If their eyes start to glaze over, I know I'm being way too
detailed.
<@SLViehl> Another way to curb your enthusiasm for the details is to write a
mock-up cover copy on the scene or chapter in question.
<@SLViehl> This is what your reader wants to know.
<@SLViehl> Not fifty pages on the depth, length, and tensile effectiveness
of your sword's fuller.
<@SLViehl> On managing the details -- you have to get organized.
<@SLViehl> There is no other way to juggle the tasks involved with
worldbuilding.
<@SLViehl> Use a notebook, or a Palm pilot, or both, but get things in
accessible order for yourself.
<@SLViehl> Tagging the info you collect -- I have a bookcase devoted to
topics in non-fiction -- one for medicine, one for history, one for science,
etc.
<@SLViehl> I create tab-divided notebooks on every book I write, others on
series plans, ideas for future novels, names I've used, etc.
<@SLViehl> Discarding or dropping details or info -- this is my weak point.
I save everything.
<@SLViehl> But I've started eliminating the clutter by transferring things
onto disc or electronic format.
<@SLViehl> This includes ten novels I will probably never get published.
Don't want to throw them away, but 60 pounds of paper is a lot to store.
<@SLViehl> And just how much universe do you need, anyway?
<@SLViehl> Think of yourself as a real estate agent for a minute.
<@SLViehl> If you're selling a single family home, you're going to walk your
potential buyers through it, right?
<@SLViehl> If you're selling a thousand room hotel, you're not. You show
them the property, maybe some plans, layout, but you don't haul them through
1000 rooms.
<@SLViehl> The same logic applies to what you show your reader.
<@SLViehl> If you're sticking to one planet for the entire book, give them a
good tour.
<@SLViehl> If you're including three to five worlds in the book, draw back a
little. They don't need to know so much detail. Give them a broader view,
show how the worlds relate to each other.
<@SLViehl> If you're writing a galactic epic involving hundreds of worlds,
you might be able to tag a few of them, but your task is to focus on what
affects all these worlds, not what inhabits them.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Robert> Would that focus also go down to different cities or villages on a
world, like if there's one village in the story you know everyone in it, if
it's a city it's just the main cast?
<Jenny> Is there a good way to test the level of detail when you don't have
kids/nonwriter housemates?
<@SLViehl> Robert, if your population is large, you can't cover descriptions
for all of the people. You have to quantify them -- the poor, the rich, the
shop owners, etc. Use them more as a backdrop. For a village of maybe
fifty farmers, you can get more into names and who they are and
personalities.
<larkin> do you pretty much hold it all in your head even though you have
notebooks?
<@SLViehl> Jenny, you can try it out on a friend through e-mail -- tell them
about it. E-mail me and tell me about it.
<@SLViehl> larkin, I'm finding with the more books I write, the more I
forget and have to go back and reference my notes. I'm just creating so
many characters I can't keep track of the minor ones. The major ones I
revisit, so I've got them memorized, they're old friends. It's sort of like
telephone numbers -- the ones you call all the time, you remember. The ones
you don't, you write in your address boo
<larkin> that helps . thanks
<@SLViehl> boo=book
<Robert> That helps a lot
<@SLViehl> Also, when you make it big, you can sell your notes as an
encyclopedia.
<BJ Steeves> Thoght you were referencing ghost writing for a minute!
<@SLViehl> ha
<@SLViehl> Onto environmental themes now --
<@SLViehl> Earth in the future.
<@SLViehl> I always think John Travolta in dreadlocks. Not a pretty sight.
<@SLViehl> Seriously, throughout history, our planet has always been in
trouble.
<@SLViehl> There are a number of well-established avenues you can pursue if
you want to write the future or alternative Earth novel.
<@SLViehl> But please, do me a personal favor and do not make homo sapiens
these incredibly enlightened ambassadors of peace and good will.
<@SLViehl> We're not a peaceful people, we're tribal.
<@SLViehl> We don't have a real good track record toward people outside the
tribe, either.
<@SLViehl> On the other extreme end of the spectrum, I never bought the
man-made Armageddon scenario.
<@SLViehl> Terminator, the Matrix, all the techno-apocalyptic movies are
wrong, I think.
<@SLViehl> Man is way too greedy to blow up the earth (though we might do it
by accident, that I can buy.)
<@SLViehl> Nature, as the third player, does exactly what she wants.
<@SLViehl> This is all SF. With fantasy, you can really let down your hair.
<@SLViehl> Magic changes everything -- all the rules. You can follow the
development of religion (which I will get to, later on) and see how belief
systems change and fluctuate.
<@SLViehl> Since worlds of magic are based on belief in tangible, accessible
power, I think it would be interesting to see more fantasy writers attack
their world building from that direction -- developing it as a reliigion,
and allowing it to have the same affect on their worlds.
<@SLViehl> Other than earth worlds and environments --
<@SLViehl> In SF, the moon and Mars and the moons of Jupiter have been done.
To death.
<@SLViehl> We've pretty much terraformed everything that has a rotational
axis, too.
<@SLViehl> There are some interesting roads still open -- like Planet X, the
alleged roving world in our solar syste, we've not yet been able to detect.
<@SLViehl> syste=system.
<@SLViehl> Nemesis, the "sister" sun to ours, just might have some planets
whirling around her.
<@SLViehl> The further out you travel in actual distance from the earth, the
more leeway you have.
<@SLViehl> Artificial environments, such as space ships, space stations,
drifting cluster colonies, or asteroid colonies have also been done.
<@SLViehl> But what about dimensional and quantum spacial realities? What
about worm holes? What if someone is living in there?
<@SLViehl> In Fantasy, there are as many possibilities, if not more. One of
the better ideas I've seen from one of the writers I mentor is a fantasy
world based on the Egyptian pyramid builder's civilization.
<@SLViehl> Totally fantasy, with living gods and goddesses based on those
real deities in history.
<@SLViehl> Fantasy writers tend to gravitate toward feudal Western Europe
stereotypes. Why not build a world similar to the many Asian cultures?
<@SLViehl> Then there are places no one has been.
<@SLViehl> In SF, black holes have been visited frequently, but brown drawf
stars haven't.
<@SLViehl> Cosmic strings hang unnoticed.
<@SLViehl> Neutrinos -- subatomic particles with no electrical charge and no
mass, which can still penetrate any substance -- don't they stir your
imagination?
<@SLViehl> What if there are traveling worlds out there we can't detect?
<@SLViehl> In the realm of magic, think about skipping the elves and witches
and dragons and stuff.
<@SLViehl> How abouta feline culture? A marsupial culture? A bat culture?
<@SLViehl> Go beyond the stereotypes again. Don't think medieval England,
think Eskimos in the Arctic. Go in different directions.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<larkin> what is involved in having you as a mentor?
<James> Do you think a cliche world like Mars, Europa, can be redeemed if
populated with a unique culture?
<@SLViehl> Larkin, I would love to mentor more people, but right now I'm
booked. I am going to try to get into some of the crit groups here on
Holly's site soon.
<Jehane> I have to go (I'm at work). Thanks for the discussion. I'll read
the transcript.
<gayle> bye jehane
<@SLViehl> Absolutely, James. Your original spin on things can (bye
Jehane!) can always blow away what's been done before.
<James> Bye Jehane.
<Robert> Bye Jehane
<Jenny> 'Bye, Jehane.
<Robert> What about fusing SF and fantasy - if aliens have their own
mythologies and magic coexisting with elves and dragons, or are reason for
dragon legends?
<@SLViehl> What I try to do is get writers thinking in different directions
because so many are writing the same, tired, old book.
<James> You've give me a great idea for magic in a world populated by a
bat-culture, by the way
<@SLViehl> I think you can do it, but you need to lean more on the fantasy
side, Robert. The tech has to work with the magic, too, as in being well
woven into the fantasy elements.
<@SLViehl> I love bats. I've got one in Shockball.
<Robert> I've got little flying bat like people as refugees in one of my
later books, a whole family like boat people
<James> Mind you, I'm doing SF at the moment, so I'll just have to note it
and get back to it.
<@SLViehl> Also, Robert -- just a note on the SF/Fantasy fusion -- if your
tech is really integral, you start heading in a cyberpunk direction.
<@SLViehl> Does everyone want to take five minutes for a break now>
<@SLViehl> .=?
<larkin> what xactly is cycber punk..a break is fine
<BJ Steeves> Sounds Good
<Jinx> Yes, please
<gayle> yes please ...
<Kae> yes, brb
<James> Yep, thanks.
<Jenny> Yes--I need to brush and floss.
<Robert> Toast... coffeee....
<@SLViehl> Cyberpunk is the fusion between man and machine, larkin. And
I'll BRB myself, I need more tea!
<@SLViehl> Okay, the kettle's on. To add to that explanation, larkin,
cyberpunk usually takes place in an urban setting, ala William Gibson, where
life is so dependent on technology that it becomes like hair or skin or
teeth.
<@SLViehl> A courier who downloads confidential information into a storage
bank in his skull -- Johnny Mnemonic.
<Diana> brb
<Robert> If telepathy were marketable would AOL put popup Xcam ads in your
head...
<Jinx> Now that's a nasty thought.
<larkin> think i get it.
<@SLViehl> There are already implants being widely used in our society --
pacemakers, for example.
<@SLViehl> The more we learn about the human brain, the more we can apply
technology to it. Eventually, the two will merge at some points, and there
you have the potential for a cyberpunk plot.
<larkin> are there romantic cyber punk fantasy/s that work as a series?
<Jinx> So are publishers going to be open to all these new ideas? Not the
same old stuff that sells....
<@SLViehl> Cyberpunk is generally very dark and nihilistic, larkin. Sort of
an offshoot of SF horror. I don't see romance in its future.
<@SLViehl> I think it's more taking new approaches on established themes
that will catch the editor's eye.
<Kae> (I'm back)
<@SLViehl> You can find a dozen Mars manuscripts on an editor's slush pile
at any given moment
<larkin> do you know eric daavis book techgnosis?
<@SLViehl> But if you have Mars collide with a mega asteroid and blow up to
form another bunch of moons around the earth, then you've jumped to the head
of the class.
<@SLViehl> no, larkin, I'm not familiar with that book. Brb, the kettle's
whistling.
<@SLViehl> Now I have my fix <g>. We'll give everyone a few more minutes.
<larkin> it's about myth, magic, mysticism in the age of information. very
interesting. Are there less nihiistic catergories realted to this?
<James> How do you feel about mixing old and new? I'm using mental powers
in a very conservative way, but in a fairly new (I think) context...
<@SLViehl> Hard SF is still very conservative. I really think fantasy is
more receptive, larkin.
<larkin> thanks
<@SLViehl> James, whenever you can teach an old dog new tricks, this is a
good thing.
<James> Thanks - I was worried. Start of book jitters
<@SLViehl> Go boldly. No jitters.
<James> I can only promise to try.
<@SLViehl> Is everyone back and ready to dive back in?
<Robert> Yep
<larkin> yes
<Kae> here
<BlairB> good to go
<gayle> yes
<James> Yes.
<Jenny> Ready.
<Diana> yes
<@SLViehl> Okay, organizing your world building information
<@SLViehl> I live in notebooks, that's just me and this really intimate
relationship I have with my fountain pens.
<@SLViehl> Its obsessive, but it's mine.
<@SLViehl> I've been torn away from them by my new Palm Pilot and its
folding, full-sized keyboard.
<@SLViehl> I love this thing.
<@SLViehl> It fits in my purse and I take it to the library or seminars.
<@SLViehl> Then whatever I type, I zap into my computer. Costs about
$150.00 with a rebate from palm for the basic, starter model.
<@SLViehl> This is great if you want to try one and don't want to spend $500
on the cadillac model.
<@SLViehl> There's also online communities where you can start storing your
ideas, files, plans.
<@SLViehl> This is especially good for crit groups, and collaborators.
Holly has a number of them.
<@SLViehl> The other weird thing I do is dictate into a tape recorder. Just
random thoughts and ideas.
--end of part one--