Workshops at HollyLisle.com
9/30/01 -- Worldbuilding (S.L. Viehl as substitute host)
<Robert> Settle for S. L. Viehl? The one who really brought real medical
goop into SF? Don't think that's settling...
<@SLViehl> Hey Robert. Just having some fun.
<Robert> I had a friend in New Orleans who was an ICU nurse, if I had to
wound anyone I told her the scene. <G> Love that intro drawing.
<@SLViehl> Everyone does that with me here. I get calls like "Sheila, my
hero just got shot in the chest, now what?"
<Anon_77> BlairB
<Robert> I'm also transcribing again as backup since I've got all kinds of
stuff up. Cooool. Thanks for the help, if I need to torture characters I
know who to bug. <G>
<@SLViehl> Yo Blair!
<BlairB> silly... if i type in the correct box, my name changes...<G>
<@SLViehl> My specialties are cardio-thoracic surgery, obstetrics, and
orthopedic replacements
<@SLViehl> So if you're having a heart attack, a baby, or a hip replaced,
I'm you're girl.
<Robert> Obstetrics would be a great help. I have fudged a couple of births
by asking women who gave birth but I don't like to do the same complications
twice.
<BlairB> not all at the same time i hope <g>
<Robert> Well, could a female charcter survive that, Shiela?
<@SLViehl> I had a patient who broke both her legs when she was 7 months
term.
<BlairB> owch.
<@SLViehl> Generally, the more systems involved, the lower the % survival
rate is. Heart is serious, you're looking at killing the baby from lack of
blood supply.
<@SLViehl> At the very least.
<@SLViehl> So what do Doug and James usually do on Sunday nights?
<BlairB> dunno, this is my first night, your world building class piqued my
interest,
<@SLViehl> Hi Jinx
<Jinx> Evening!
<Robert> I read the transcripts but usually something happens on Sunday
nights. This time I was watching for it, went for chapter break, stopped and
came. Hi, Jinx
<BlairB> and since that is what i'm doing now. I figured it would be a good
thing to attend.
<@SLViehl> We'll have to make it worth your while.
<Jehane> Hello everyone
<@SLViehl> Hi Jehane
<Robert> Hi Jehane
<Jehane> Usually Jim just asks if anyone has worldbuilding questions
<Jinx> I don't usually get to play on Sunday evenings, so this is my first
worldbuilding workshop.
<@SLViehl> I figured we'd do that tonight -- keep it open Q&A
<BlairB> you're the boss
<Robert> Do you ever deliberately say 'here be dragons' about some part of a
world, drop veiled hints and fill in on later volumes?
<@SLViehl> I've had to do a lot of that with my reptilian species, the
Hsktskt. I whisk 'em in and out of books most of the time, dropping hints
about their culture but never hitting the home world. That's going to be
book seven, so I had to wait to get there.
<@SLViehl> Although I did get a bit more in book three, with their slaver
depot world.
<@SLViehl> Sort of like visiting them at work.
<Robert> Cool. That's intriguing in itself (picturing Sheila casually
sharing a coffee break with reptilian slavers...)
<Robert> So you plan the series sometimes.
<@SLViehl> I'm hoping to get over to Australia one day and hang out with the
Crococile Hunter. I love reptiles.
<@SLViehl> StarDoc was planned out to 10 books first. It's now gone past
22.
<@SLViehl> Being an open-ended series, I can go as long or short as I want.
I know what the last book will be.
<@SLViehl> But let's not talk about me, what are you all working on?
<Robert> Explorers is working title, I'm almost 10,000 words into it and the
clones are on the move. They just landed in a place they have a reputation
in that they don't know about.
<@SLViehl> Hard SF, Robert?
<Robert> No, fantasy with a lot of hard SF underpinnings, fusion stuff,
depends how you look at it and occasionally some stuff wanders outside realm
of 'can be described in science terms'
<@SLViehl> Hi Sarah
<Robert> Hi Sarah
<Sarah> Hi. Surfacing for air.
(That's really funny if you've read
my project proposal and you're as frazzled and in need of a break as I am)
<@SLViehl> Everyone, hit Sarah with questions about biodiversity, let's put
her to work. <g>
<Jinx> I wrote a short story about 2 months ago that refused to stay within
bounds of a short story. It's insisting on becoming a novel, so I've been
slowly working on its development.
<Jinx> Evening, Sarah
<Sarah> Lol! Yeah, though my answers may be heavily Cetacean biased at the
moment. Or seaweed. I've written a ton about seaweed...
<@SLViehl> Don't you love/hate it when that happens?
<Robert> Now she's a nonhumanoid female with a broken hip and a heart
problem trying to give birth...
<@SLViehl> All my novels start out as short stories gone wild.
<Sarah> Ditto that. Which sucks when you're trying to win a short story
contest.
<@SLViehl> Hi Jenny, welcome
<Robert> Hi Jenny!
<Jinx> It was NOT a good short story (although I think the scenes were ok),
mainly because it kept "going wild", as you put it. <g> All these little
facts kept surfacing.
<Jenny> Hi there. (I was trying to slink in late, unnoticed.
)
<BlairB> looks at watch... not late by mine...
<@SLViehl> Jinx, I always pick a few of the best and consign the rest
(ruthlessly) to the "Write the Novel LATER" notebook.
<Jinx> Yes, but you're organized! ;-D
<Robert> I got so many short story rejection slips that said "Great novel.
Finish it and send synopsis and three chapters."
<@SLViehl> lol
<@SLViehl> I like Gordon Van Gelder's rejection slips. He always writes
something like, "Love the world, plague was great, have too many stories
like this in inventory."
<Sarah> You forgot to put the "alas" in.
<Robert> Cool! Yeah, there's as many writer in jokes as doctor ones, same
sick humor. <G>
<@SLViehl> Always, ALWAYS with the alas, yes
<@SLViehl> Jenny, what are you working on right now, world-building wise?
<Jenny> Well. There's this Zettercise I did in June and want to develop as
my next novel project. Unfortunately I'm really not sure what happens after
the scene I wrote for the exercise.
<@SLViehl> Kill someone, maim someone, or blow something up. That's my
advice.
<Jenny> The concept of "experimental history" is core--people can view/alter
time, but only do it for research. Which sounds highly implausible.
<Jenny> Hmm. That's always a possibility.
<Robert> Thanks for the advice, Sheila. I think I have to take that for this
book.
<@SLViehl> Have them sucked into the viewing machine, then blow it up.
<Sarah> Suddenly, so much of Stardoc becomes clear...
<@SLViehl> My nickname among the Florida Romance Writers is Demolition
Woman.
<Jehane> Maybe it's not so much experimenting with history, as in getting a
chance to look into alternate worlds, but the window doesn't stay open for
long.
<@SLViehl> I like the contrast between them dispassionately viewing history
and then (suddenly) having to deal with it, in their faces, up close and
personl.
<@SLViehl> personl=personal
<Robert> I'm doing alternate histories in my open series, but I'm doing
alternates of a world not Earth for a lot of them, which helps. So right,
Shiela.
<Robert> That's a hook, Jenny. That's a gotta
<Jenny> Those are neat ideas. Thanks.
Did anyone ever read Asimov's story
"The Dead Past"?
<Jinx> Perhaps it's outlawed, except for research, or perhaps it's one of
those things that no one but the researchers know about. Then along comes a
renegade who decides that he/she can use this ability for
bigger/better/badder things.
<Jinx> Not that it's my story or anything <g>
<Robert> whoops Jehane
<Robert> getting my J's mixed up there
<@SLViehl> while I'm sitting here with Jakol and Jericho working on a novel
with a heroine named Jadaira
<@SLViehl> there's something abot the letter J . . .
<Jenny> Jiinx--one of my concerns is building up to a point where this
technology would be only used for research. It might well be outlawed...I'm
just not sure.
<@SLViehl> I didn't read the Asimov story, tho
<Jehane> No problem. I was in chat yesterday with Jim and James
<@SLViehl> Wouldn't there be a big temptation to use the tech otherwise?
<Sarah> <was once in a theatre group with five Sarahs)
<@SLViehl> Black market?
<Jenny> The story's about building a machine to view the past. And the Bad
Guys try to stop the protagonists from doing it, because it'll be used for
spying, for mothers obsessed with their dead children, etc.
<Robert> Or is it something about the process itself that screws up if it's
used for anything but research - like, by tamperers later up the road, a
time police?
<@SLViehl> More emotional black market, then
<Jenny> Well, viewing someone's past would be pretty powerful stuff. I was
thinking earlier it might be more useful than viewing the future.
<Jenny> In other words, this may turn out to be totally impracticable.
<Jinx> It could be the story begins when the technology is first
discovered... it's possible at that point that most of the population
outside the researchers wouldn't know about it, yet.
<Robert> Spies sometimes find out what they don't want to know, like that
grieving mother discovering the dead kid was closet gay.
<Sarah> Could be very useful technology for police investigations
<@SLViehl> Or their grandmother died from a disease they're going to get
when they're fifty
<@SLViehl> There you go, Sarah -- what a way to view a crime scene.
<Robert> Denial is such a powerfully human thing. <G>
<@SLViehl> Then, like a polygraph, have it be inadmissible to court.
<Robert> Or the court battle to make it admissable as photography.
<Jenny> Hmm. What about evidence that was only obtained by being able to
view the crime scene that way?
<Robert> That's the case that it would have to stand up in! This looks like
a core premise, a major McGuffin with more stories hanging out of it than I
could count.
<@SLViehl> doesn't get into court because there was no physical "discovery".
Boy, you could have fun with that.
<Jehane> It could be argued that what was seen was what
might have
happened, not necessarily what did happen in your universe.
<@SLViehl> time displacement errors -- they're not sure what timeline
they're viewing.
<Jinx> Oohhh... and then who has the burden of proof? And what happens if
you have two sides with two different scenes?
<@SLViehl> That's where the investigating officers have to pull in physical
evidence to back up the time window version.
<@SLViehl> while the defendent tries to discredit it, like any
testimony/evidence
<@SLViehl> I've got one thing to throw out to the group, idea-spinning wise
<@SLViehl> relates to nutrtional relationships between organisms, but can be
applied to characters.
<@SLViehl> anyone interested in hearing this?
<Jinx> Sure
<Jenny> Yes.
<Robert> Very much, at the moment I need to develop 'new place on map' and
this is cool.
<Jehane> yes
<@SLViehl> Most animals, including man, are what we call bulk-feeders --
they consume tissues in bulk as whole organisms or parts of them.
<@SLViehl> (This is where Sarah starts hitting me for bringing up biology)
<Sarah> The subject I'm nattering on about, no less (in part, at least)
<@SLViehl> but I've been trying to explore other associations and
relationships, like symbiosis and saprophytic dependency
<@SLViehl> There are like 3 subdivisions of symbiosis -- parasitism,
mutualism, and commensalism.
<Robert> I have too. Vampires are parasitical, predatory or symbiotic
depending on their social interrelationship with mortals.
<Sarah> (There's actually some debate about that now, but those are the
basic three)
<@SLViehl> Examples -- tapeworms have parasitic relationships with their
hosts. They take, don't give back, and usually harm or kill
<Robert> Okay, I used 'symbiotic' meaning 'mutualism'
<@SLViehl> mutualism means they usually depend on each other to the extent
they can't live without each other
<Jehane> There's the trill(sp?) in Star Trek, and another lot in Stargate
with mutualism
<@SLViehl> and commensalism means one benefits but doesn't harm the other
<@SLViehl> I'd like to see more characters -- humanoid or otherwise -- who
aren't of the bulk feeder variety
<@SLViehl> I can't live without my kids or my cats, so there's a mutualism
in the works.
<Robert> Saprophytic dependency is an interesting one too..
<@SLViehl> Robert, imagine a protagonist who has to live off dead stuff.
Eee-aah, the possibilities
<Robert> It wouldn't seem grotesque to him and might not to the humans. "Oh,
we need to cook everything Kgreabe eats."
<@SLViehl> What if he has to burrow into the body to absorb the nutrients
through his pores? Be kind of hard to set a dinner table for that. <g>
<Robert> It could even be a religious vow - kill nothing for food, wait till
a plant or animal dies, wait for fruit to drop.
<Robert> Well, yeah. Dinner with nonhumanoids is always socially awkward.
<Jenny> They'd worship windstorms.
<@SLViehl> They'd worship highway pileups.
<Robert> If it's a philosophical extrapolation off Hindu "ahimsa" practice
of harming no living thing, they have to have some local food source that
blossoms and dies real fast. A sort of 'manna plant'
<Jinx> That's a whole new way of looking at road kill.
<@SLViehl> I feel a short story brewing all ready . . . title: The Cleanup
Crew.
<Robert> Sure is. And that brings us to whether there is really any taboo
about eating other sapients not your species.
<Sarah> Yeah, tapeworms have a solid interior - no gut. Many parasites live
internally so they can absorb stuff directly rather than having to eat it.
Think outside the tetrapod box...
<@SLViehl> Or like lampreys, they have to attach themselves (more along the
lines of your vampiric comment, Robert)
<Robert> And if cetaceans are sentient, wouldn't the extinction of some
whales and the canned whale meat industry say something about humans?
<Robert> Or how would a sapient race that peacefully and harmlessly lived on
human excrement be viewed ?
<Jehane> Like if flies were sentient?
<Jinx> ewwww
<Robert> I have a plant race that loves it. Plants like nitrogenous
substances.
<Jenny> Makes me think of "I wish I were a fly on the wall."
<Jinx> We just had our septic tank pumped the other day. Now I'm having
icky thoughts. <g>
<@SLViehl> Would sure save me some money on water & sewer bills -- but would
you want one in your bathroom?
<@SLViehl> I can hear it now -- "Mom! Mike left the seat up on the Yarg
again!"
<Robert> Umm, I know them too well and it would depend a lot on which one.
<Sarah> Better than not having anything that processes waste...
<Robert> Some are carnivorous. Others like practical jokes. I'd have to know
it well enough to trust it. And they're hermaphroditic, 'it' is the right
gender pronoun for something with both stamen and pistil
<Jenny> What would you do with them when you left on vacation?
<BlairB> let the neighbors watch them of course...
<Robert> Good point. Any symbiotic relationship involves some inconvenience.
<Jehane> In many of our more remote national parks there are recycling
toilets, where everything just goes down into a tank and the bacteria
process it into fertiliser.
<@SLViehl> You'd have to drop them off at the Yarg vet.
<Jenny> Someone who eats a lot?
<BlairB> rent them out to porta potties..
<@SLViehl> Port-a-Yargs
<BlairB> lol
<Jinx> And then there are those rogue Yargs...
<Jenny> Attack of the wild Yarg! Eww...
<@SLViehl> running around the streets, biting humans on the butt . . .
<Jinx> lol
<Robert> Then again there's the race whose idea of interspecies diplomacy is
flatworm learning. Puts a whole new spin on "To Serve Man"
<BlairB> or stalking people as they walk their dogs...
<@SLViehl> you could have mini-curb Yargs swarming around NYC
<Robert> That would be cool for NYC... dog focused ones
<@SLViehl> Inevitably, the saprophyte would be exploited, then they'd simply
have to take over the planet.
<Sarah> Might be good for towns where beasts of burden are the main methods
of transportation.
<@SLViehl> "I saw vast fields where humans were being made . . . to go to
the bathroom . . . "
<Jinx> they'd have to feed us a lot of fiber.....
<@SLViehl> Good point -- agricultural community would definitely benefit.
<Robert> They did. That's one way to look at it, that they domesticated all
the humanoids on the planet and are somewhat breeding them for flavor and
production.
<Jenny> An alien would see them being force-fed and draw the wrong
conclusions.
<@SLViehl> We're sick people, we writers . .
--end of part one--