Workshops at HollyLisle.com
9/30/01 -- Worldbuilding (S.L. Viehl as substitute host) Part two
<Robert> That we are. Let's see. I haven't explored sapient filter feeders
yet, or sessiles. Marine life is cool.
<Sarah> Human colonists can really bung up an established ecosystem. In
comes a great source of waste, humans find the Yarg predators a great food
source, or just kill them off so there's more Yargs, Yarg population
explodes, then there are too many yargs and not enough waste being
produced...
<@SLViehl> And then comes the bulk fiber missiles
<Jinx> And I wonder, would the Yarg's have preferences? Ok, ok... that's
too much to think about, even for me...
<@SLViehl> The point is, we're all wondering now, "Gee, would I be
considered breakfast, lunch, dinner?"
<Jenny> Oh, dessert, of course.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Robert> It makes social interaction with your typical vampires something
really interesting from the viewpoint of mortals who've lived with them for
generations.
<@SLViehl> I started getting into communal-sentient bacteria with one story,
where they thought of us as food. Can really put a spin on relationships.
<@SLViehl> Do you want to negotiate with your dinner? That kind of thing.
<BlairB> sure could make punishment for crimes interesting if they were
police...
<Sarah> (Sheila does great biology stuff, speaking as a biologist)
<@SLViehl> I love biology, it lends itself so perfectly to the work.
<Robert> Biodiversity is something I've speculated a lot on, in both series.
<@SLViehl> And we tend to forget so much after we get out of school.
<Jenny> <nods guiltily>
<Sarah> That's why working at the biodeversity gallery is so much fun --
kids come up with the strangest questions that give you great ideas.
<@SLViehl> Mine are constantly challenging me with their ideas -- my
daughter is nuts about bugs.
<Robert> Sarah: what about hypercomplex ecosystems that absorb repeated
invasions gracefully?
<@SLViehl> Like -- the sea? <g>
<Robert> Yeah. Very much, the sea, since I do a lot in the high fantasy
series with sailors that sail between worlds. Little fish and barnacles and
who knows what is following them every single time.
<Sarah> Actually, the ocean's not that resilliant. There are some places
where species that come over in ballast water outcompete the native species
very fast and then turn out to be ill-equipped to cope with, say, season
change, die, and leave great empty spaces.
<Sarah> It's worse in freshwater systems, but the ocean's so darn big it's
hard to see the results as clearly.
<@SLViehl> I've been working to take the aquatics out of their environment
and putting them in a like/unlike biosphere -- dolphin-like beings as pilots
in deep space.
<Robert> They would do so well at that, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> I imagine the long-term effects won't show for a few centuries,
either, right Sarah?
<Robert> David Brin did a very interesting hard SF future history where
chimps and dolphins and humanity were the main three sapients offworlders
admitted to an intersp. civilization - on equal terms.
<Sarah> Depends. If the gravity's high, you'd see osteoporosis effect
within a few years.
<@SLViehl> The dolphins said, "We'd like to talk to you about the tuna
industry, you jerks."
<Robert> I look at the mass beachings and wonder sometimes if that's a
massive nonviolent protest.
<@SLViehl> My trick is to keep them in water -- the ship cockpits are
flooded and pressurized, to compensate
<Sarah> (trying to divide attention between chat and a boring report on
seaweed). It's unlikely Robert. We screw with underwater acoustics and
magnetics an awful lot.
<Robert> I didn't think of that and their directional senses. Ouch.
<Sarah> A passing speedboat may translate into "lots of fish this way" to
some cetaceans, who knows. Or change one cetacean's communication from
"there's land over there" to "go over there"
<@SLViehl> If there was some way to ping them away from shore -- set up
transmitters along all the coastlines. Would save so many.
<Sarah> And really screw with their sonar.
<Sarah> That's one area I want to go into, maybe for doctoral work. Work on
communications, so we can broadcast a "danger, go away" signal from boats,
dams, drift nets, etc.
<@SLViehl> That sounds terrific
<Robert> I'd be all for that. I'd want to help support that and I know so
many would.
<@SLViehl> The Killer Whale signal box -- "Keep away or I'll eat you."
<Robert> Yeah. And doing so would also be a start on figuring out what
they're saying.
<Sarah> But there you might run into the problem of other orcas going, "oh,
hey, there's a buddy over there."
<Robert> I still someday want to rewrite Moby Dick from the whale's point of
view.
<@SLViehl> Right, didn't think of that.
<Robert> "This is a predatory trap line, this is nto the Greenpeace
vessel..."
<@SLViehl> BRB, folks, have to throw my kids in the bath.
<Jenny> That reminds me--I have to go put clothes in the laundry.
<@SLViehl> Sorry. The ex was supposed to take them tonight, but as usual. .
.
<Robert> That reminds me, I have to throw these boys off the map fast for
arcane reasons and to keep readers from getting bored.
<@SLViehl> Well, then, we should wrap it up. Any last questions out there?
<Jinx> Not from me. I'm still back with the Yargs.... <g>
<Robert> What kind of bioengineered organisms would help buffer the effects
of biological invasion and smoothly integrate old and new populations? Given
some advanced species is doing that to save species.
<@SLViehl> Bio-built organisms, to me, are like boyfriends. The
relationship starts out ideal, but then you find out they're not your dream
date
<@SLViehl> Like with like -- if the organisms are predisposed to getting
along with the creator host, it would work.
<Robert> So you'd look at its 'boy next door' connections and try to
rearrange without new organisms.
<Sarah> The problem is ecological interactions are so incredibly complex
that it's hard to know what's going to happen until we screw things up,
something explodes in population or goes extinct, and we're left thinking
"wups". Look at the cane toad.
<Robert> I'm working on the ecosystem(s) of dimensional crossroads worlds
that demonstrably haven't died and have biodiversity.
<@SLViehl> We tend to be so short-sighted with introducing foreign organisms
to non-native environments
<@SLViehl> Look at kudzu
<Sarah> Darn, they don't share the same habitat as cane grubs. <thwack>
<Robert> The people who originally set them up weren't short sighted.
Something keeps the crossroads worlds from dying.
<Robert> If I know what that is (or generally types) then I have a better
depth realism to them.
<@SLViehl> Sarah, make a biologist's call on this one -- I'm woefully
short-educated on the subject.
<Jehane> Are you looking at maintaining native populations or assimilating
them with invading species?
<Robert> Both probably, some backlog or eddy areas just isolated but for the
crossroads themselves, integrating and maintaining the ones that would
normally be wiped out in balance.
<Robert> And the beings that did it are so longlived it's geological,
they're not short sighted.
<Sarah> It's hard to say -- it's a very complex problem. It depends on the
habitat and the organisms in it. I don't think it's possible to have one
"type" of organism unless it's incredibly phenotypically plastic and
resillient, and then you have the problem of the buffer taking over.
<Robert> So you think the solution would be a really complex one - not
simple at all, more specific to each and every situation.
<Sarah> Yeah. You can't generalize nature. It's too weird.
<Sarah> (look at the platypus)
<@SLViehl> You're messing with the nature evolution of symbiotic
relationships, too, never a good thing. If it was meant to be there, it
would have evolved.
<Robert> I'm generalizing culture and the ideas that culture would apply,
what they'd think of doing.
<Jehane> Well, if you could maintain the reserves and keep them free of all
contaminants (not easy) the your buffer zones could be ever-changing as
species evolved.
<@SLViehl> Dome worlds.
<Jehane> Also, species rarely interbreed, they['d have to be very similar
genetically
<@SLViehl> Ah, well, that's it for me, folks. My daughter is throwing water
at the cats, got to go.
<Jehane> So you'd end up with a whole lot of competing species in your
buffer zones
<Jehane> Bye Sheila, thanks
<Sarah> And be careful with "evolution". It happens randomly, there's no
"goal". If something changes, they survive or die. THe thing that lets
them survive is selected for and strengthened. If fish hadn't had a swim
bladder, we wouldn't be breathing the way we do.
<Robert> Bye, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Please continue on, if you like. I really enjoyed tonight
<Jenny> 'Bye, Sheila. Thanks for the help.
<Jinx> Night, Sheila
<Sarah> Bye Sheila! (Is anyone logging the chat?)
<@SLViehl> I forgot to ask -- has anyone logged it?
<Robert> I am logging it right now, did from moment I showed up. Will mail,
Shiela!
<@SLViehl> Bless you, Robert.
<BlairB> i have too
<Robert> Purr snuggle Shiela, this time got it all.
<Sarah> Great.
<@SLViehl> And Blair, as always -- you're a peach.
<@SLViehl> (Didn't know Blair was a peach, did you?)
<Robert> So Sarah, what would happen would be readers would see incredible
biodiversity IN buffer zones
<@SLViehl> lol
<BlairB> i didn't know i was a peach
<@SLViehl> Goodnight all. See you again soon.
<Robert> Goodnight, Shiela! Thanks!
<BlairB> g'nite
<Sarah> I think so. I'm a little too focused on this application to really
think clearly.
<Robert> Sorry. That's about what I did anyway, so far, I'll pick away at it
till they tell me the 'how'
<Jehane> Robert, the biodiversity wouldn't last for long because they are
limited by resources, so the weaker species would become extinct.
<Jinx> I need to go, too. Windows is trying to crash on me again. Night,
all!
<Jenny> 'Night, Jinx.
<Robert> Ouch. G'night, Jinx
<Jehane> Unless there was some mechanism to protect each species.
<Jehane> Bye Jinx
<Jenny> What do you mean by buffer zones?
<Jehane> But then you'd end up with populations too small to maintain.
<Robert> I mean the actual gateway dimensions, the places a lot of planets'
worldgates are.
<Sarah> Jehane's right. I've got to go -- I've hit a part of this that
requires full attention. I may show up to lurk in chat later.
<Robert> Cool! Luck with it, Sarah!
<Jenny> Good luck, Sarah.
<Jehane> Bye SArah
<Sarah> Thanks. Bye everyone!
<Jehane> You could have quarantine - it's not perfect but makes for easier
management of the buffer zones.
<Jenny> I don't think I fully understand what you're trying to do, Robert.
Do your advanced beings want to save the species as they are in perpetuity,
or give them a chance to survive/speciate elsewhere as they will?
<Robert> Okay. In the crosstimer series, it's something that's been around
so long no one notices that does operate on 'crossroads' worlds and filter -
quarantine is one of its strategies.
<Robert> There's two species I wrote that
have done things like that and
one is local to a pretty specific planet and weirdly it is patchy, there are
a lot of places it just refuses to settle.
<Robert> Then there's the original gatebuilders, whose defenses may keep
that secondary sapient species out - which does relocate endangerd species
all the time.
<Jenny> Why are they endangered?
<Robert> It's got a moral imperative toward preserving any, any genotype, it
wouldn't matter what, with another level that makes it value anything
sentient more that's rather self interested.
<Robert> They're preserving non sapient types because it might evolve.
<Robert> They get competitive about it among themselves like collectors do
too.
<Jehane> Do they allow them to evolve? Perhaps evolution needs the
competition of other species
<Jenny> Okay...but if a species is kept in a constant environment, it won't
evolve sapience.
<Jenny> Great minds think alike.
<Jehane>
<Robert> Oh yeah. They do experiment. They're kind of status driven on that.
<Robert> So their particualr zones are getting sentient selection on them
along with natural evolution.
<Jenny> If they have a moral imperative to save genotypes, what about failed
experiments? Do they only use part of the population?
<Robert> They clone a lot and only ever use part of hte population. They
went to hideous lengths in Blood Junkie to revive an extinct species of
vampire seeking the right host for its transformation.
<Jehane> What about the genotypes that are lost when a species evolves into
a more advanced one?
<Robert> They get moved. Just the way rose growers will keep root stock of
something that's spawned numerous hybrids.
<Jenny> It sounds like an utterly useless hobby to me.
<Jenny> maybe not useless. Not worth the effort.
<Jehane> Where is the space for all these different populations?
<Robert> My view of that is instinct gratification is usually worth the
effort.
<Jenny> I said to me.
<Robert> True, Jenny. <G> You have a point. They're not human or even
humanoid.
<Robert> But I'm looking at what I've got with them and seeing evidence that
maybe someone beyond them tampered with them or set them up.
<Jenny> Why?
<Jenny> I mean, why would someone beyond them do that.
<Robert> They're coming back along a really , really long migration route
and want to breathe the air and eat the local food when they get back.
<Jehane> species will evolve naturally, unless someone forcibly
culls/separates mutations
<Jenny> If they live geological timespans, I wonder how they had the time to
evolve, themselves.
<Robert> They're the ones who haven't changed much.
<Jenny> Why not bring it with them?
<Robert> Thank you. Thank you for a really important point. This stuff along
their migration route is related to the number of times they went that
route.
<Robert> They are among other literary necessities a reason for humans to
have migrated all along significant chunks of their path.
<Robert> They bring what's important to them and what they just can't manage
to scrape off.
<Jehane> So if they take all the important stuffwith them, why do they need
the things back home to not change?
<Robert> The things back home do change. A lot. I was working with ...
geological time frames and on only one planet I did manage to come up with
something stable enough to stay civilized for about as long as the
Cretaceous.
<Robert> They have probably forgotten where 'home' was by now. They migrate,
that race is migratory.
<Jenny> Then...where is this zoo of every extant genotype?
<Jehane> gmta, Jenny
<Robert> There's a big one on that planet wtih the Mesozoic length
civilization, and it gates. G'night Jehane
<Jenny> And so do ours.
<Jehane> Ummm...I said gmta, not bye!
<Jenny> Does gating mean instantaneous access to another place? In that
case, why migrate?
<Robert> That's how they get from world to world sometimes, they have
several modes of transportation.
<Jehane> What's wrong with gates, that they don't use it all the time?
<Robert> They do but the migration thing is something other than whether
they have transportation, it comes from within and is probably instinct.
<Jehane> They still need a reason to migrate. Animals migrate because they
follow the food source.
<Jehane> Animals that normally migrate but have a constant food source won't
migrate.
<Robert> Other than that it's a cultural thing. Hm. I really need to take a
close look at them for that, because I'm looking at 'what does it look like
before that planet came along'?
<Jenny> That planet?
<Robert> The one I've so far got all those books on, Piarra
<Jenny> Oh. I thought you meant this advanced race migrated
with their
planet or somesuch.
<Robert> No. They leave in smallish bands and they tend to return to the
same worlds and they have a lot of variation sometimes.
<Jehane> where did the planet come from?
<Robert> I'm sort of worldbuilding some prehistory of elder races in this
because the Piarran 'crossroads mecahnisms' are in place and Piarra was
deliberate. Piarra was ... guided, very guided.
<Robert> Life on it came out of a known event. And was very guided
thereafter.
<Jenny> <Hearing the theme from "2001" in my head>
<Jehane> lol
<Robert> Grin. Okay, so I loved 2001. It's not Earth, it's itself and the
more I explore it the more everything on it interconnects that solidly.
<Jenny> That's cool. I wasn't trying to say you were imitating anything. I
just remembered the monolith.
<Robert> I know. I only laughed because I've got so many different
inspirations and hadn't thought of the monolith but I loved that movie.
<Jenny> Me, too. The book was better, though.
<Robert> Yeah, and I'm used to that with 'book and movie' can think of only
one exception: Bladerunner.
<Jenny> I haven't read or seen it.
<Robert> Based on "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" it was a very great
movie, very gorgeous cinematically, good plot and characters and acting,
very cyberpunk pre cyberpunk.
<Jehane> Thanks for an interesting chat guys, but I'm going to have to go.
Bye everyone
<Jenny> Me, too--laundry time again. 'Night, Jehane.
<Robert> G'night Jehane! Thanks for all the help - and food for thought...
<Robert> Night Jenny... thanks to you too!
<Jenny> And thanks for the help. 'Bye!
<Jehane> No problem Robert
-end of part two-