<@SLViehl> Hey Blair
<BlairB> greetings!
<@SLViehl> Hi Gayle
<gayle> hello everyone.
<@SLViehl> My daughter is playing Bejewelled on my Palm Pilot and has
already whipped my top score. And she's six.
<@SLViehl> That'
<@SLViehl> That's really sad.:
<BlairB> never heard of that game...
<gayle> no..it's depressing
<@SLViehl> Hi Kae
<@SLViehl> And the nine year old bails me out when the computer locks up.
<Kae> I like Bejewelled.
Hi, there!
<@SLViehl> My mother used to roll her eyes when I hauled out my Royal
Academy -- said "I never learned to type and I've done just fine."
<BlairB> A Royal Academy is a typewriter i assume?
<@SLViehl> The first typewriter. The CroMagnon of typewriters.
<BlairB> okay
<@SLViehl> I wrote three books on it, and now shudder to think of all the
hours . . . and whiteout . . .
<BlairB> lol, i can't imagine.
<gayle> I was happy when my mom brought the old 1923 model from her 2nd job
home because they updated to a 'newer' model
<@SLViehl> Whew, that is stone age, gayle
<@SLViehl> I worked on one of the first Texas Instrument commercial
computers -- it didn't have a screen.
<@SLViehl> It printed out everything you input simultaneously
<BlairB> was that the TI88?
<@SLViehl> Lord, I am old.
<gayle> It was replaced by a 'new' portable my junior year in high school.
Both were servicable for treports and term papers though
<Anne_Marble> Yo!
<Kae> I typed in articles for a summer newspaper on a computer that spit out
tape with holes in it. Interesting how quickly I was able to read the
holes.
<@SLViehl> I can't remember the model number but that sounds familiar,
Blair. Hey, Anne!
<Kae> Hi Anne!
<gayle> Hey Anne Marble...congraulations on the column at writing-world.
<@SLViehl> Anne has news?
<Anne_Marble> Thanks! Now I have to think of more stuff to say! :->
<Kae> Hey, you're mentioned in ... yeah what gayle said. lol
<gayle> that's reports and term papers
<Anne_Marble> I'll be the romance columnist for writing-world.com. And she's
reprinting a couple of my Vision articles, too.
<@SLViehl> All right, way to go!
<gayle> cool
<Kae> way cool
<Anne_Marble> And she pays!!!
<@SLViehl> (okay, all us romance writers have to suck up to Anne now.)
<Kae> yippee!
<@SLViehl> don't you love that ca-ching?
<BlairB> Great job Anne!
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<Anne_Marble> Sell a couple more, and I'll pay more my new shortwave radio.
<Kae> Hi, BJ
<@SLViehl> Plus it's great as a writing credit. Hi BJ
<Kae> Hi, Jenny
<Jenny> Hello, all.
<@SLViehl> Hola Jenny
<Jinx> Evening!
<gayle> Hello Jinx
<Jenny> Hi, Jinx.
<Kae> Hi, Jinx
<@SLViehl> Hey Jinx
<@SLViehl> Hi James
<James> Hi All
<Kae> Hi, James
<Jenny> Hi, James.
<gayle> hi james
<Anne_Marble> Whoops. Bye James. :-<
<James> I'm back - hello again - looks like I might be dropping in and out
again today
<@SLViehl> I'm going to give the stragglers a few more minutes, then we'll
get started. James, hang in there if you can.
<Anne_Marble> James, here's a rope.
<@SLViehl> Blair, can I impose on you to make another transcript
<James> I'll hang on with claws and fingernails, server permitting
<BlairB> no problem
<@SLViehl> Blair is surpassing a peach and approaching an orchard.
<BlairB> <blush>
<@SLViehl> Okay, a brief review of the topics we covered in the first
session -- and feel free to ask questions about these, time permitting at
the end of the session:
<@SLViehl> We discussed types of series -- the "hub" versus "chronicle"
theme
<@SLViehl> How to determine if your idea is epic enough to suit a series
<@SLViehl> how many books constitute a series
<@SLViehl> and the always popular, ever-dreaded second book syndrome
<@SLViehl> Tonight I'm going to pick up where we left off, with Ways to
Expand Story lines
<@SLViehl> but I'm going to break more frequently and throw out the
QUESTIONS flag
<@SLViehl> that's when you throw stuff at me, and I want to give you all
more opportunity to do that.
<@SLViehl> Everyone ready?
<Jenny> <stuffs chocolate in mouth> Ready.
<gayle> yes
<Anne_Marble> Yes
<Kae> gtg
<James> Sure am...
<Anne_Marble> <Anne stares at Jenny's chocolate and whimpers>
<BJ Steeves> As the Ferengi say, I'm all ears
<@SLViehl> Okay, you've got a great cast of characters, a wonderful plot,
and still you can't seem to see beyond that first book
<@SLViehl> Think of yourself as a farmer -- you're going to seed your first
book in order to grow some more
<@SLViehl> You do this with plot threads -- not the main plot, but aspects
of the story that are revealed (or not) as the main plot progresses.
<@SLViehl> These are your future book seeds.
<@SLViehl> There are two kinds of seeds -- character, and event
<@SLViehl> something happens to a character that isn't resolved, or comes
back to haunt them. Instant main plot for next book.
<@SLViehl> an event happens that isn't resolved, or has reprecussions in the
future -- another route to take.
<@SLViehl> When you seed a story, you have to think like a farmer -- too
much seed, and you're going to choke everything
<@SLViehl> too little, and you'll lose sight of what grows.
<@SLViehl> I try to have at least three but no more than five open plot
threads in a series. It's just a manageable amount for me, and I think the
reader can keep track of that.
<@SLViehl> How you seed -- very subtly. You don't want the reader to know
you're setting them up.
<@SLViehl> But you want them to know they've been set up when they read the
next book.
<@SLViehl> so you feed what you seed, especially if it carries on through a
couple of books as an open thread.
<@SLViehl> feed the reader just enough to keep them interested, but not able
to guess what you've got coming up.
<@SLViehl> To be consistent -- and this is important, at least as far as
series style -- I came up with a plot thred schematic
<@SLViehl> If you've got a copy of the discussion outline, I detailed the
StarDoc Loop Schematic
<@SLViehl> I like the one-two-THREE punch when I write, and it translates
well in each volume of the series.
<@SLViehl> but what most readers don't realize is my running schematic for
open threads is basically the same.
<@SLViehl> One -- I feed them something they probably don't notice
<@SLViehl> Two -- I smack them in the face in another book as further (but
not all details) are revealed
<@SLViehl> THREE -- I drop the big-boom revelation on them
<@SLViehl> And this is also where your "hub" or "Chronicle" theme comes into
play. Remember your hub stays consistent, while your chronicle advances.
<@SLViehl> They determine, more than anything, what your open threads can
be. How long you stretch them out is up to you, but some advice --
<@SLViehl> don't torture readers for more than two books. They get cranky.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Sarah> What are a few of the open threads in StarDoc?
<James> In the case of a hub universe, about how much change to the Universe
do you think you can get away with between books without alienating readers?
<@SLViehl> Maggie is probably the biggest. What is Cherijo -- human, alien,
other? is another.
<Anne_Marble> So if you know your character is, say, half-elf, you might be
better off not revealing the whole story yet? (Sort of like Montel going to
a commercial before he heads the paternity test results.)
<@SLViehl> You can do major changes, I would think, James, because your hub
theme is usually character driven. With a chronicle theme, you have
problems with flow in time and setting, whereas characters can be bounced
all over the place and retain their basic hub situation
<James> Can you get away with moving to other milieus within the Universe,
where the majority of characters and even some social stuff won't be
familiar to the reader, do you think?
<@SLViehl> Anne, if its a major revelation that's not only going to change
the character's life but have a deep and lasting effect on the story, I'd
hold off. I'd play it out at least a book or two.
<@SLViehl> Sure, James. Have your reader discover it along with your
characters, that's the fun part of drastically changing locales.
<Anne_Marble> Oooooh. :->
<@SLViehl> I had to wait three books to drop one of the most major bombs in
StarDoc, and it was tempting to give away some more details.
<@SLViehl> But the first person who read the fourth book called me and said
"You are an absolute maniac, I had no idea!"
<@SLViehl> Was worth waiting for. <g>
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's move on to artiste versus manipulator, and the
supporting cast
<@SLViehl> I get chided for having ice for blood, the way I plan everything.
<@SLViehl> Some writers have claimed they can't create within the
restrictions of a detailed plot outline.
<@SLViehl> And I respect that.
<@SLViehl> But.
<@SLViehl> If you're looking to have a commercially successful career, you
need to think about marketing.
<@SLViehl> marketing isn't artistic, it's statistic.
<@SLViehl> Also, rewriting -- I generally don't rewrite very much.
<@SLViehl> So the time I spend writing is minimal, considering the volume.
<@SLViehl> I do basically one draft, and one rewrite.
<@SLViehl> It's because I've planned everything very carefully before I ever
start to write. Artistic types who do this seat-of-the-pants stuff tend to
spend a lot more time rewriting.
<@SLViehl> In my opinion.
<@SLViehl> Time is money to me. If I can produce six books a year, I don't
have to work for anyone but myself.
<@SLViehl> On the other hand, artistic people generally don't have much
choice about being artistic, they just are.
<@SLViehl> If you can plan ahead, try to. I think it will save you a lot of
time.<@SLViehl> Now -- your supporting cast of characters. Very important
people in your novel.
<@SLViehl> They aren't part of the setting, or there to make your
protagonist look good/bad/silly/whatever
<@SLViehl> Supporting characters are tools. Use them.
<@SLViehl> Make them as interesting, if not as prominent in the story, as
your protagonist.
<@SLViehl> The first benefit is, you've got a potential main character for a
future book .
<@SLViehl> The second is to avoid something my editor calls the "Mary Sue"
syndrome -- the protagonist is so wonderful, flawless, beautiful, perfect,
etc. that he/she makes everyone sick.
<@SLViehl> Use your support/tool characters to expose some of the weaknesses
in your protagonist.
<@SLViehl> I.E. the hero or heroine isn't heroic twenty four hours a day.
<@SLViehl> And that is another sore point with me --
<@SLViehl> people aren't perfect, and we don't want to read about perfect
people.
<@SLViehl> It makes us want to run over them with our cars.
<@SLViehl> Let yorur protagonist mess up, make bad judgements, even ruin
someone's life. The protagonist has to grow and progress as a person, and
the only way we really do that is by making mistakes.
<@SLViehl> My favorite supporting character is what I call "the dark horse."
<@SLViehl> This is the character who never does what the reader expects them
to.
<@SLViehl> You set up a dark horse the way you would a villain -- generally
at odds with your protagonist -- and have them go at each other.
<@SLViehl> The process of conflict between these two (or more characters)
creates change, and its during major change that the dark horse "flips"
<@SLViehl> Suddenly, the dark horse isn't a villain, for whatever reason --
he/she has become an ally of the protagonist, or has reversed a prior
position
<@SLViehl> You can do it the other way, too -- a "good" dark horse turns out
to be a bad guy in the end.
<@SLViehl> And then there are some who just bounce between the two -- Reever
is a good example of a "galloping" dark horse. I wonder if I'll ever know
whose side that guy is on (probably his own)
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<BlairB> Generally, How long is a plot outline? How detailed do you make
it?
<James> Do you rewrite as you go, or are your first drafts simply pretty
good?
<Anne_Marble> There was a "debate" about secondary characters in an SF
newsgroup. (A writer criticized Eric Flint because he admitted he didn't
characterize Simpson in 1632 well.) How much detail do you give a secondary
character? How much is too much?
<@SLViehl> I do a ten block, three to six sentence per block outline, Blair.
I'm thinking of doing a session just on creating that.
<BlairB> Sign me up now!
<Jehane> <sneaking out of class to go back to work>
<Jenny> 'Bye, Jehane.<gayle> bye Jehane
<Anne_Marble> Bye Jehane!
<James> See you Jehane
<@SLViehl> James, I try to produce a high-quality first draft, but I put a
lot of thought into the novel before I even write the outline.
<@SLViehl> Bye Jehan
<@SLViehl> Jehane, Imean
<Kae> I'd be interested in the outline session.
<gayle> I'd be interested too
<James> Ditto, if you need more encouragement
<James> How much time would you say you spend in preparation before a given
novel (not counting initial universe creation)?
<BJ Steeves> Is that 10 blocks for your plot outline enough to cover a
novel?
<@SLViehl> Eric's book didn't toe the line in alot of ways, Anne. (One of
the reasons I loved it.
Secondary characters are hard to scale unless I
know the size of the cast. I run between ten to fifteen prominant secondary
characters in every SF novel, but only about five in romance. As for
detail, think about friends and family -- your family is with you every day,
like your protagonist is in the nov
<Kae> You said you can write a book in 8 weeks. How long do you take to do
the Pre-writing?
<@SLViehl> I spend about two months preparing to write a novel -- that's
concept, research, outlining, and finishing touches -- before I ever commit
a single word to manuscript page.
<James> What would you describe as a 'finishing touch?'
<@SLViehl> The ten block method can accomodate any size novel, and the
blocks can individually be expanded to include more detail. It's more the
ten steps of telling the story, beginning, middle, end, and what happens in
between.
<BJ Steeves> Thanks
<@SLViehl> Finishing touches are when I step back and look at the whole
picture -- I analyze the idea, look for plot flaws, problems that will crop
up in the flow, have I got enough balance between humor and drama and
action, etc.
<@SLViehl> I snip here and there to trim off the excess, that's what I think
of as finishing touches.
<James> Ah - thanks.
<@SLViehl> Can you tell I sew?
<Kae> quilts, I'd guess
<@SLViehl> Major quilts.
<@SLViehl> As for pre-writing, I also tend to plot more than one book at a
time. That comes with my multiple personality disorder, lol
<BJ Steeves> A little on the "crazy" side maybe?
<@SLViehl> At the moment I'm restoring a 1940s dresden fan quilt I picked up
at a auction for a song.
<James> Gee - what sort of condition is a fifty year old quilt usually in?
<@SLViehl> Excellent, in this case -- the maker never quilted in, and kept
in a closet for sixty years.
<Kae> Are you using vintage materials or modern?
<gayle> that depends on how used it was or if it sat in a closet or not
<@SLViehl> I'm simply constructing it and quilting it. The handwork is
absolutely gorgeous.
<Kae> Lucky you.
<James> I had a vague prejudice that fabric would rot to rags in that time
<gayle> do you know it's history?
<@SLViehl> but to get back on topic -- I'll run a proposal for a plot
outlining session past Holly, see if she'll give us some calendar space for
that.
<@SLViehl> Not if it's cared for, as this was, and I spoke to the daughter
of the woman who made it at the auction.
<James> Excellent.
<BJ Steeves> I'm sure she will.
<gayle> cool
<@SLViehl> I'll warn you, I did this plotting workshop in front of 100
people in New Orleans, and everyone stayed up all night to try it out.
<Cath> So we should get some sleep before that one, then.
<Kae> What a great response!
<BJ Steeves> I probably will too.
<Sarah> Some of us could use the kick-start.
<James> I'm safe - your night is my day
<@SLViehl> It's also been responsible for 3 book sales, so far, for other
writers.
<@SLViehl> My secret weapon
<@SLViehl> hee hee
<Kae> wow
<BJ Steeves> I'll take all the ammo I can get.
<BlairB> me too
<@SLViehl> Tell you what, would you mind if we take a five minute break? I
need to put my kids to bed.
<Kae> sure
<James> No worries.
<gayle> sure
<@SLViehl> okay, brb.
<BJ Steeves> Will be here.
<Anne_Marble> OK, I need to get some more pepperoni ;->
<Jenny> Eww.
<BJ Steeves> Or a pizza to go under it.
<Diana> ok
<Kae> Ah, pepperoni. I'm just now able to eat a little of it 20 years later
after a horrible new year's eve when I didn't know I had the flu.
<Cath> That happened to me with eggs long ago, Kae. Even now I don't like
to dwell on it.
<Kae> Kind of turns the stomach, right?
<Cath> Oh yeah.
<Anne_Marble> I got hard salami instead.
<Kae> Oh, sorry, Anne.
<Sarah> Rats. Emily's still not back with food.
<Cath> So. . . anybody got a salami horror story?
<Sarah> No, but I could tell you some great ones involving fast food
breakfasts. <g>
<Cath> And you're looking forward to eating? I think I'll pass, thanks.
<Kae> lol
<Cath> Since I already ate.
<Sarah> I'm a life sci major. Hard to gross out. Though this WOULD be the
first solid thing I've eaten in three days...
<Anne_Marble> My coworker went to the deli, and she asked if there was
anything she could get for me. I asked for a sandwhich with hard salami. She
looked at me funny. Then, she came back with a sandwhich for me and told me
the guy at the deli looked at her funny, I ended up with a Genoa salami
sandwhich instead. (Same thing)
-end of part one-