<@SLViehl> Okay, the small demons are tucked in, I'm back.
<Jinx> These classes just aren't complete if I don't get booted by
Network54.
<@SLViehl> Sarah, Cath, Hi!
<@SLViehl> Diana and Robert too!
<Kae> Hey Robert!
<@SLViehl> (Sorry if I didn't see you all before.)
<Anne_Marble> Hello Robert.
<Diana> Hi!
<Sarah> That's okay. You answered my questions even if you didn't see me.
<@SLViehl> We need a bigger chat to box, is what.
<Robert> Hi
<BlairB> mine is full screen...
<Kae> Uh, drag it to whatever size you want?
<Cath> (waves)
<Anne_Marble> I double-clicked the title bar thingie to make it bigger.
<Robert> That would work
<@SLViehl> If I double click anything, it throws me off.
<gayle> I pull it out so I still see some of the groupboard
<Kae> If you put the pointer at the bottom right corner, click and drag it
to a larger size.
<Cath> Well, leave room, like, you know, for the, um, you know, tardy
people. To, like, sneak in. ahem
<Sarah> <just glad I woke up in time>
<Robert> I just got here physically, a fairly literal reason to sneak in
<@SLViehl> No sneaking required. You do, however, have to listen to three
hours of Donald Maas narrating his last book.
<@SLViehl> hahaha
<@SLViehl> I met Donald (briefly) in New Orleans. Short man, trim beard,
much cologne.
<Cath> (resigned sigh) Such torture.
<@SLViehl> Or maybe that was David Shenk. Anyway.
<Robert> He sent me a nice rejection slip when I queried if he was taking
authors.
<@SLViehl> On to Surprise Parties!
<@SLViehl> These involve the dark horse (supporting characters who change
allegiance/affiliations partway through the book)
<@SLViehl> not always, but they're fun to mess with.
<@SLViehl> What happens, happens to every writer. With me, it was a
one-time-only single use disposable character named Squilyp.
<@SLViehl> Squilyp was supposed to a pain in Cherijo's backside for one
book.
<@SLViehl> He's now in three books and wants his own.
<Robert> That sounds so familiar.
<@SLViehl> Characters sometimes come up on your blind side and surprise you
with how they become so integral to your story.
<@SLViehl> Let them.
<@SLViehl> There is nothing that you outline that is set in stone, and it's
worth a few storyline adjustments to discover a Squilyp in your story.
<@SLViehl> I wish I could give you a rational, scientific reason some
supporting characters become almost as beloved as the protagonist, but it
just happens. You fall in love with them.
<@SLViehl> And sometimes you have to kill them off, which is even worse.
<@SLViehl> I still get e-mail for killing off the love interest in my first
novel.
<@SLViehl> Nasty e-mail.
<@SLViehl> The main point is, be organized, be prepared, but allow yourself
to be surprised, and go with it.
<@SLViehl> Common Problems with writing the novel series.
<@SLViehl> Not enough juice -- let's face it, there are some storylines that
just don't have enough punch to carry the reader through five or six novels.
<@SLViehl> These are generally narrowly plotted and not well thought out.
<@SLViehl> There's also a tendency on the author's part to "fall in love"
with their subject.
<@SLViehl> I love John Keats, but I'm not going to write five books about
him. Move on.
<@SLViehl> There are just so many ways you can write a battle scene, or a
fight scene, or a death scene. If you have the same scenes in every book,
with just the names changed, the reader is going to give up on the series.
<@SLViehl> So what has juice?
<@SLViehl> Universal themes.
<Robert> Consequences? Every time the heroes win anything they're stuck with
results?
<@SLViehl> Remember those really lame conflict labels they made us memorize
in high school?
<@SLViehl> Man versus man
<@SLViehl> Man versus nature
<@SLViehl> Man versus Joseph Conrad
<@SLViehl> always made me wonder what Woman was doing
<Robert> I thought Man v. Woman was the guts of romance genre
<@SLViehl> But they do apply when you're searching for juice. Think epic,
think basic, and you're halfway there.
<@SLViehl> The ying and yang of the universe are always good
<@SLViehl> weak versus powerful, greedy versus generous, etc.
<@SLViehl> Then there's the trouble in paradise scenario -- garden of Eden.
Sins of the father revisited (again, mother never sins, apparently.)
Skeletons fallings suddenly out of the family closet.
<@SLViehl> Or the Underdog variety -- Liberty or Death. Flash Dance. To
Kill a Mockingbird.
<@SLViehl> Take one of those universal, epic themes and run with it.
<@SLViehl> At the same time, think epic but focused.
<@SLViehl> Star Wars is successful because it's huge, but focused. You've
got a universe at war but you only get it one or two planet doses at a time.
<@SLViehl> So once you've got that huge, epic, major idea, concentrate on a
very small portion of it for your story.
<@SLViehl> Two-D characters. SF and Fantasy are chock full of them.
<@SLViehl> It ties in with the wallpaper supporting characters, when I
talked about making your protagonist mess up.
<@SLViehl> So many writers have characters, especially protagonists, who are
just "angels" or just "demons"
<@SLViehl> Avoid the Mary Sues and the Adolf Hitlers. No one is pure evil
or pure good, imho.
<@SLViehl> And you'll know when you need to invest more flaws in your
protagonist (or positive attributes in villains) -- if by page 50, even you
are sick of reading their dialogue, then you need to reshape the character.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<James> In my WIP, I plan to turn the love interest into something that's
not, strictly, available for romantic attention - if that's the sort of
thing that upsets readers, will it annoy an editor?
<@SLViehl> Sometimes it's good to upset the readers -- I do all the time.
You need to tread the line carefully. Does the end justify the means, is
there a solid reason for this transformation? Then go for it. If it's just
to manipulate the reader, then yes, I think it will annoy the editor.
<James> So, as long as the plot justifies it, people won't feel cheated that
a romance is set up and then not carried through?
<@SLViehl> Oh, they'll feel cheated, but getting a response from the reader
isn't about getting approval, I think. You stir emotions, that reader is
going to come back for more.
<@SLViehl> I killed off the hero in StarDoc book one.
<James> Oh, I see - thanks for that.
<@SLViehl> Because although everyone thought he was the hero, he wasn't.
<Anne_Marble> In a Hub series, do readers get annoyed if you have a central
"quest" that isn't achieved through numerous books? (Sort of like the way
The Fugitive was looking for the one-armed man and took four years to find
him.)
<Sarah> <reading back> Just tell me you're not going to hurt Squil.
<James> So that was the punch in one of your one , two, three punches?
<@SLViehl> Anne, if you use the same excuse over and over to keep your quest
from being completed, I think they'll get annoyed. If you can find
different ways to run interference, it becomes fascinating to the reader.
<Sarah> <sigh of relief>
<Anne_Marble> I have a similar conflict to the Fugitive. :-> She's running
from a pursuer. But I've thought of oodles of things she can do in between.
<James> When you say select a big theme, do you attach that to the Universe,
so it becomes the theme of the series, or to each novel, so that each novel
is attached to a different grand theme?
<@SLViehl> Definitely part of the THREE knockout punch in that book.
<Robert> From what you said, it sounds more like predictability is the main
thing to avoid.
<Sarah> Unpredictability is good. Makes reading a workout.
<Anne_Marble> Right, she could find the real killer -- and then find out he
didn't do it! Or that he was justified.
<@SLViehl> James, if you're going for a big, open-ended type series, you
need huge, epic, lasting theme. If you're looking at a mid-length, say five
to seven books, I think you can go with related themes that add up to the
big picture, if that makes sense.
<@SLViehl> Robert, I live to be unpredictable.
<gayle> makes you want to read the next book...unless it takes forever to
get published and you forget the plot and finer points of the characters
<James> Thanks, it does. I'll have to think about it a bit to apply it, but
it does make sense.
<@SLViehl> There you go, Anne.
<@SLViehl> Gayle, I think that's why the hub and chronicle themes have to be
very big and epic, to be easily remembered.
<@SLViehl> Think about a series you've read, what do you remember about it?
<@SLViehl> Acorna, by Anne McCaffrey -- Unicorn girl with healing powers
tries to find her place in the universe.
<gayle> but even with it big and epic if the books are years in the making
you forget where the author left off...and yes I'm thinking about a
particular author
<@SLViehl> Powers That Be, McCaffrey & Scarborough -- Something strange is
going on with the transplanted lifeforms on a remote, desolate ice world.
<Anne_Marble> Miles Vorkosigan books, short manic man with brittle bones and
his own secret army :->
<@SLViehl> That's when the pick up comes into play, gayle -- someone picks
up a third or fourth volume, becomes fascinated by the continually running
theme, goes to get the previous volumes.
<@SLViehl> In a perfect world, that would happen with every author's series,
but alas, not always.
<Anne_Marble> How do you make the books self-contained?
<@SLViehl> Present the same problem, advanced in timeline, in a completely
different situation/setting
<gayle> but if you have read all the previous and pick up the 'new' book and
find out you can't pick up the threads then you either reread the whole
series or wait until it's completed.
<@SLViehl> Present, investigate, and resolve a local puzzle or problem
without bringing an end to the epic theme
<@SLViehl> If the author is doing his/her job, that won't happen.
<Kae> It can be fun to reread all the books, imho.
<Sarah> Ditto, Kae.
<Robert> Agreed, I can remember doing that with more than one series.
<gayle> not when they are between 500-700 pages and there are more than 7 of
them it's not
<Cath> Matter of opinion.
<Sarah> With the series I like enough to stay with, I can reread the books
any number of times. <ashamed to admit how fast she goes through a 500 page
book>
<Cath> If it bothers you, Gayle, make sure you don't have such large time
gaps between your own books.
<gayle> definitely!!
<Kae> ditto, Sarah. lol
<@SLViehl> Or keep the number of books in the series to a minimum, say five
<@SLViehl> or do a trilogy!
<Robert> In writing a series like that, Sheila, does it make sense to comb
earlier books for odd random tidbits of background and develop those into
whole plots that when written, give reader a different view of book one on
rereading?
<Sarah> Plus, once you hit book three or so, it doesn't take as long to read
them cause you can start skimming.
<gayle> that is probably what will happen... either a trilogy or a series of
4 or 5
<@SLViehl> Ala Orson Scott Card, Robert? (That man pulled off a real beauty
with his "parallel" novel, Ender's Shadow.)
<@SLViehl> I don't believe in rehashing, as I think of it, but I have done a
couple of dialogue flash-backs here and there, where my protagonist finds
out someone else's view of what's happened in the past.
<@SLViehl> Usually Reever.
<Robert> Haven't read that and would love to. I did it by accident in my
Piarra series, had a lot of Court intrigue and didn't know who all the
foreign spies were but filled them in background, just by mention. Then
later in the series reread with "I don't believe those guys survived that.
With what COULD have happened..."
<Sarah> Sharon Shinn does it a lot in the Samaria books
<@SLViehl> Readers tend to feel bilked if you do it too often, Robert,
unless it reveals some major difference in perspective and interpretation.
<@SLViehl> But let me move on now, because I'm determine to finish this
outline tonight.
<Robert> I had way too much backstory for one book, it's more after doing a
lot of them the reader's got more pieces of the puzzle.
<@SLViehl> On to the Info dump -- How to show without showing off
<@SLViehl> (this actually ties in with backstory, in a way.)
<@SLViehl> This is a particular problem in SF, not so much in Fantasy. The
temptation to show how brilliant you are.
<@SLViehl> Some authors spend years composing an extremely technically
academically flawless work that should really replace most of the textbooks
in colleges around the world.
<@SLViehl> The author, and a couple of professors from MIT will enjoy this
book.
<@SLViehl> The average reader will skim the first page, say "Ick" and put it
back on the shelf.
<@SLViehl> I have met so many brilliant people in this field, and at first
it intimidated me, because I'm not particularly brilliant.
<@SLViehl> Then I read their books, and winced.
<@SLViehl> We'll revisit the main reason we write novels to be published:
marketability.
<@SLViehl> The average reader is not a professor at MIT.
<@SLViehl> The average reader is a 35 to 45 year old white female with a
high school to college education.
<@SLViehl> In other words, the average American housewife is the average
reader -- and she reads a lot.
<@SLViehl> She's not stupid, but she doesn't need to be lectured to.
<@SLViehl> If you can't write to hook this reader, you've just lost 58.4% of
the market.
<@SLViehl> Don't insult her, don't talk down to her, and don't ignore her.
Know this woman, this average reader.
<@SLViehl> Talk to her in bookstores, see what she's reading.
<@SLViehl> You need to be writing what she's reading.
<@SLViehl> Or writing what's going to lure her away from it.
<@SLViehl> Which leads into Tone.
<@SLViehl> And I covered this a bit durng another session -- writers have a
tendency to come across as the Stern Parent when writing.
<@SLViehl> I should say, certain writers.
<@SLViehl> They believe their books will educate the reader, who is so
obviously intellectually inferior to them. They aim to enlighten and set
this reader on the road to heightened awareness.
<@SLViehl> Do not be this writer.
<@SLViehl> If you invite the reader to come along for a ride with you, a joy
ride, in the middle of the night, to places you're really not supposed to
go, and offer them increased awareness via an open bottle of hooch in the
backseat, then you're a Partner in Crime writer.
<@SLViehl> You've got a choice -- who would you rather spend a Saturday
night with? Your partner in crime, or your mother?
<@SLViehl> And finally, when it's time to go out and play.
<@SLViehl> You love poets. You've written ten novels on the trials and
tribulations of super intellectual alien poets dukking it out with combat
sonnets in the drawing rooms on Regency Mars.
<@SLViehl> You have base 1 million lines of dialogue on actual conversations
held between Keats, Byron, and Shelley.
<@SLViehl> Your research is meticulous.
<@SLViehl> You've buffed this baby until it blinds the eye.
<@SLViehl> You can't sell it for bird cage liner. Why?
<@SLViehl> You've spent the last five or six years writing about something
you love, and you've lost touch.
<@SLViehl> People change. Times change. Reading preferences change.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes, in a single moment.
<@SLViehl> Take the ten books and shelf them.
<@SLViehl> Go outside of your inner world, and play.
<@SLViehl> Talk to people -- real people, not just pals on the Internet.
<@SLViehl> Fine out what they're reading, and why.
<@SLViehl> Find out what they'd like to read, and why.
<@SLViehl> Make lists of these things.
<@SLViehl> Do this for a long time. Don't come in until you've got a good
idea of what's going on out there.
<@SLViehl> Then come home, and look at those ten books on the shelf.
<@SLViehl> If what is on those lists is in your novels, then get back to
submitting.I
<@SLViehl> If its not, start over.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Cath> Isn't anyone going to ask, "What are you reading?"
<@SLViehl> Me?
<James> Holly mentioned on one of the boards that her editor had discouraged
her from pursuing a new Cadence Drake book - what would make an editor
choose not to pursue the second book in a series that way?
<gayle> courage of falcons and daughter of the blood
<@SLViehl> Death of a backlist, I think, James. Baen will probably never
reprint the first book.
<James> And another editor or company won't go for someone else's series?
<@SLViehl> The other thing is Holly is doing some incredibly high fantasy
now, she really shines, and going back to Cadence Drake may seem like a step
in the wrong direction to the editor.
<James> Do they generally take a dim view of a writer doing something other
than what they're best known for?
<@SLViehl> The editor can't get the rights to the first book, James, and
generally they want the whole package
<@SLViehl> If a writer sticks to one genre, and one particular sub category
for an established time period (say three to five years) then publishers are
very reluctant to accept new directions from that author.
<James> It's a scary thought - get your universe together, get the first
book out, and an editor shuts it down on you.
<@SLViehl> Its always a gamble, but my philosophy is, if I came up with that
idea, I can come up with a better one.
<Jinx> Would pen names come in handy in that particular instance?
<Cath> James, I think the problem there is that it's more than one
publisher. If you change publishers before finishing a series, the 2nd
publisher won't want the next book.
<@SLViehl> That's one way to combat the problem, Jinx, but generally you
can't bring the universe you established under a new pen name.
<James> Does that mean in career terms, if you see yourself doing quite
different things over your career, that you establish that your interests
are varied in that 3-5 year period by trying to sell one of everything
you're interested in doing?
<@SLViehl> For example, let's say I leave Roc. The StarDoc series would
die, immediately. The universe, I might be able to take with me.
<@SLViehl> But Roc gets first offer on any StarDoc novel I write, which
could be construed as any novel I write in the StarDoc universe.
<Anne_Marble> Isn't that what happened to Lawrence Watt-Evans? He left Del
Rey for Tor, and all the Esthar books went out of print at Del Rey.
<@SLViehl> I've been trying to spread myself out in as many directions as
they'll let me, James, as sort of insurance for future employment.
<James> So, mental note: the next one's a fantasy!
<@SLViehl> Generally that happens to most writers, Anne (I'm not sure about
LWE) unless they're very big names when they leave.
<@SLViehl> I think it's a good thing to stay flexible, and it makes you a
better writer, too.
<Kae> Could you give any, or more, examples of generic plot schematics?
<James> Which raises another thought - if you publish the first book in an
SF series, can you generally make your next one, say, a fantasy series,
making the editor and public wait for your third book to get the next book
in the series?
<@SLViehl> Sure, Kae, I can post a generic outline on the discussion board,
the all-purpose one I use for a lot of novel plotting parties.
<Kae> thanks
<@SLViehl> There are a few authors, James, who do that kind of juggling.
Generally you're looking at one release per twelve months in the beginning,
so if your series can handle a two year lag, it might work.
<James> So it would have to be a hub series?
<@SLViehl> My answer would be to have as many manucripts ready to go as
possible, and to keep your inventory of novels stocked.
<@SLViehl> Major hub, like Anne Rice used to do with her vampire novels, I
think.
<Cath> I hate waiting two years between books of a series.
<Jinx> Although, as a reader, I tend to get mildly annoyed at those authors
who are promoting the next series instead of immediately finishing the one
I'm reading. <g>
<@SLViehl> Those pen names do come in handy for that, Jinx.
<Kae> that's why we love Sheila's quick fingers.
<Anne_Marble> Sharon Green ended up with lots of unfinished series because
she ended up going from publisher to publisher.
<@SLViehl> Publisher hopping is dangerous, for that reason.
<Cath> You can always come out of the closet later, right? and add to the
cover "writing as Lub Lenox" or something.
<Anne_Marble> I don't think she hopped on purpose. :-<
<James> And then it's a good excuse for the publisher to re-release all your
Lub Lenox books
<@SLViehl> On my first romance, they put "Gena Hale is the pseudonym for a
nationally bestselling SF author" but didn't say it was me, for some reason.
Drove the readers crazy.
<Anne_Marble> Do you know who Josie Litton is? ;->
<@SLViehl> Sometimes you don't have a choice about publishers -- imprints
shut down, big houses conglomerate, and writers are left out in the cold.
<James> Betcha that was the reason - generate a buzz of curiosity, get
everyone buying the book to see if they could work it out from your style.
<@SLViehl> No, but I want to know who Josie Litton is. Everybody does!
<@SLViehl> It's not Rebecca Brandywine, is it?
<BlairB> who is Josie Litton?
<Anne_Marble> That's a possibility. She wrote historicals and is no longer
publisher.
<Anne_Marble> A romance writer who is openly using a pseudonym but not
revealing who she used to be.
<@SLViehl> Josie Litton is a notorious debut author make-over -- she was
writing romances under another name, and is now hiding behind a pen name.
<James> Is she still doing romances?
<BlairB> oh, okay thanks
<@SLViehl> Yeah, and they're pushing her like she's Nora Roberts. Oh,
Lord, what if she is? <g>
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, someone on one of AAR's board has heard it's Maura Seger.
Cool, I liked her.
<Jinx> Why would she do that? For mystique? Sales?
<Anne_Marble> Yup yup
<@SLViehl> I think the hype is going to sell a lot of books for Ms. Unknown
Writer
<@SLViehl> As to whether she can keep the readers remains to be seen.
<Jinx> I was just thinking that it could backfire on her big time.
<@SLViehl> Whoops, yes, we should wrap it up.
<@SLViehl> Any last questions?
<Robert> When will we weirdos meet again? <G>
<gayle> next week for the second part of romance writing
<James> When the hurly burly's done?
<Anne_Marble> Only should I let my werewolf heroine have a fling with her
pursuer, the man she used to love? ;->
<Anne_Marble> I'll have to attend! Hope I remember.
<James> Sheila, may I turn up for the romance chat, having missed the first
session?
<@SLViehl> If you all want to talk series again, I'd like to also do a
series plotting focus session
<Cath> Anne - yes, if it'll cause mayhem and stress.
<@SLViehl> Sure James, all the sessions are open, please do.
<gayle> I have the dates for classes I want to attend on a post it note
taped to the monitor
<Robert> I'd love that, Sheila
<Kae> You bet, Sheila.
<James> A series plotting session sounds brilliant.
<BlairB> yup yup
<Jenny> Definitely.
<gayle> yes
<James> Ah, thanks - I'm keen not to embarrass myself with my romantic
subplot
<@SLViehl> We can concentrate on running threads, how to stretch them out,
etc.
<@SLViehl> Maybe do a generic series plot outline, that would be fun.
<James> It sounds like a total hoot. I love that sort of thing.
<gayle> gotta go...see you all next week
<@SLViehl> Do you all think template-type outlines help? 'night, gayle
<Anne_Marble> Wow, now I've found the product I want. Sunglasses that
actually contain an itsy bitsy monitor.
<James> See you, Gayle.
<Kae> see ya!
<Jenny> Bye, gayle.
<Jinx> Night, Gayle
<@SLViehl> You'll go blind, Anne. lol
<Anne_Marble> Bye Gayle
<Jenny> Sunglasses with a monitor? Attached to what?
<Kae> Sheila, yes, for me. If I have something to build on I do wonders.
<James> I do, Sheila - it gives you something to think about, a chance to
come up with questions, that sort of thing.
<Robert> G'night, Sheila, thanks so much for the class! It's great and I'm
looking forward to series plotting thingy you mentioned.
<Anne_Marble> You can wear them and read stuff, I guess. Except my boss
would wonder why I was wearing sunglasses indoors and why my editing was so
slow.
<Jinx> At this point, I love templates. Anything to help get me started in
the right direction.
<@SLViehl> Goodnight, Robert
<Cath> Thank you, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> <clap, clap, clap, clap>
<@SLViehl> Thanks for letting me brow beat you all for another Friday night.
<Kae> What fun brow beating. <g>
<Sarah> <g>
<Jinx> Is that what this is? ;-P
<@SLViehl> I'll get to work on those outlines, and talk to Holly about a
series plotting session
<Kae> cool
<James> Thanks again, it was another interesting and informative sessions
(and I've taken a dozen plot notes throughout for later today)
<Jenny> Sounds great. Thanks.
<Kae> I agree, James. I've got notes all over the session outline.
<@SLViehl> All right, then, good night folks. See you around the site, and
stop in at the sessions when you can.
<James> Bye all!
<Kae> Good Night, and many thanks, Sheila.
<Jinx> Thank you, Sheila. Night, all!
<Jenny> Good night. 'Bye, everyone.
<@SLViehl> Bye!
<BlairB> gnite
<Anne_Marble> Bye
-end of part two-