<@zette> So welcome to the second class. My apologies for canceling the earlier one.
<BklynWriter> that's quite alright zette, we understand
<Anon_35> ping
<@zette> I'm afraid that the pictures just are not going to work right tonight either, but I think we can do without them.
<valerie1> Lost power and my machine bounced. I'm not really in here twice!
<@zette> Don't worry. Grin. Just makes it look all the more busy for me!
<@zette> The last thing we covered was the pov problem. Today we're going to start with choosing the best narrator.
<Gayle> thank you, thank you, thank you
<@zette> There are times when the 'hero' of the story is not the best story teller. Dr. Watson is a much better narrator than Holmes, because with Holmes there could be no surprises.
<@zette> Watson is a step outside, and can watch the action and allow Holmes to be mysterious. If we were in Holmes head, we'd be pretty bored. He knows everything. He's seldom surprised, etc.
<@zette> So sometimes you want to look at a secondary character as the person to tell the story. They can observe everything, but still allow your more important character to have secrets, and to do things that the reader doesn't always understand -- until they are later explained.
<@zette> That make sense to you guys?
<Gayle> yes
<valerie1> yup
<BklynWriter> yes...but
<@zette> Yes?
<BklynWriter> if the 2ndary character is not in every scene, aren't we missing something
<Suzanne> It makes sense, I just don't know if I am sophisticated enough to know when choosing something besides the hero is best.
<BklynWriter> ditto what Suzanne said
<@zette> That's where you have to look at the story and see if you NEED every scene. I'm not saying always go with a secondary character, by the way. Just take a look around and find out if you want a character a little outside to tell the tale.
<@zette> This is one of the things that needs practice. The best way to do it is look at a story that you're having trouble with. Maybe you're bored with the character. It may be that you have a story that needs to be told by someone else.
<@zette> I see most writers leap right in with the MC without ever considering any of the others. Sometimes it helps to just look around a little and see how the story might look from someone else's POV.
<Suzanne> What about back story when you are using another character?
<@zette> Depends on the story. It will not work for all stories, obviously. Sometimes you have to have the MC be the person who has the most stakes in the story.
<@zette> I don't often use the secondary character, but I have rescued stories by looking at it.
<Suzanne> what do you mean "looking at it?"
<@zette> By looking at the other characters and see if one of them can tell the story better. Sorry. I'm rattled tonight. Taking too many short cuts!
<@zette> What I'm really saying is don't limit yourself to always telling the story from the POV of the most important character. Most often that is the best way, but look at other possibilities too. It also opens up entirely new levels in a story, sometimes. How does what the most important character do affect others around her?
<@zette> Usually a story is told by the person who has the most to gain/lose by what happens. However, you can play with that a little. And this goes for first or third POVs -- it's all just how the story is focused.
<@zette> Okay, on to another section -- starting places!
<@zette> With novels, while you want to start with something interesting, you really have the chance to do things in a leisurely way compared to short stories. In a short story you want to start as close to the heart of the story as possible. No long leads, and that creates problems for people who are trying to introduce character/setting/story line.
<@zette> It's especially hard for those of us who are used to writing novels.
<@zette> With novels you might start out wide and focus in, like standing on a hill and slowly focusing down to the village, a home, a room, a person doing something. In a short story you pretty much want to start with that person.
<@zette> And, in fact, you want to start with that person already involved in whatever the story is about. This makes adding in the details more difficult.
<Suzanne> you can say that again. I tend to write pages and pages that get left on the cutting room floor.
<@zette> However, the truth is you aren't going to have as much detail in a short story as you would in a novel. We don't need to know the history of the world. We're not going to 'live' in that world long enough to care. What we need to know are the things that are immediate to the story being told.
<@zette> So detail of the room and what he's doing take on a lot of extra duty. They have to tell us what type of culture and 'age' we're looking at, as quickly as possible.
<Gayle> I figured out last night after think about it for a couple of days that I was attempting to cover too much ground in my short story...
<BklynWriter> yes I've been trying to squeeze a novel into a short story
<Gayle> but I would never have figured it out if I hadn't written the paragraph for you zette
<@zette> It's easy to do, Gayle. I have that problem all the time.
<@zette> I've read the paragraphs but not commented yet. I'll get to that after this class. Sorry. It's just been too troubled here for the last week.
<@zette> Squeezing in a novel's worth of stuff into a short story is a mistake a lot of people make.
<valerie1> So, is it possible to cover a whole lot of time in one short story? In the story I'm stuck on, I want to cover the lifespan of one girl (girlhood to grandmotherhood) to show something about the MC... is this too much?
<Gayle> can we revise our paragraphs first?
<@zette> Sure, go ahead.
<BklynWriter> I haven't posted yet, but will do so after class
<@zette> No, Valerie -- it's not too much. Any story can be told in a short story. You just have to be aware of what you want the story to do. You seem to know what you want.
<valerie1> well, mostly <grin>. If I really knew, I probably wouldn't be stuck!
<@zette> When you look at how much detail you want, think of it like a set of circles. On the outer circle we have the 'whole world' (which might mean universe, etc. depending on the story). We don't need to know very much about what's out there. The next circle are the lands and culture in which the story takes place. Culture, especially, can be shown by doing rather than explaining.
<@zette> Then the village -- show only as much as we need to know for the story, usually just the area that the character passes through. Save the riches details for the 'areas' in which the character moves and interacts with nature and others.
<valerie1> Shoot; I have to run. I'm looking forward to the transcript...
<@zette> Talk to you later, Valerie! And you can email me with questions!
<Izunya> See you, Valerie.
<@zette> If you love world builidng, and like to do all this detail stuff, consider writing several stories based in the same 'world' so that you can use more of the details that you love to create.
<Gayle> bye Valerie
<@zette> Remember that a few good details can do more for a story than layers of description of common things.
<@zette> Okay, back to the opening. Here is a way to limit the backstory that you have to tell before you get to the story you want to show.
<@zette> It's using the setting as history. Instead of starting out a story by saying that a meteorite killed someone on Main Street today, you start by saying that the third person this week was killed by a falling meteorite.
<@zette> That establishes the 'unusual' as common to this world. You can use that ploy in any number of ways. The fifth elf was murdered. The third godling was born to a peasant, etc.
<@zette> It allows you not to have to start with the first incident if your story is about how your MC solved (say) a series of crimes. We don't want to see too many pages of investigation that lead nowhere. You can give the reader those in summary, and go straight to the more exciting part -- perhaps the last two crimes to be solved, say -- one to fail solving (spectacularly, by the way... don't make it dull),
<@zette> and the next one to finally win. Play with scenarios and see if there is someway to compress a story that is getting out of hand.
<@zette> And always remember that the writer needs to know far more about the world of the story than the reader needs.
<BklynWriter> I read somewhere that in the structure of a short, the character should fail 2 times, and succeed at the 3rd try
<Suzanne> Ha! Does that work in life as well?
<@zette> I hate those kinds of rules. They make for very static stories. Write what you think works best.
<@zette> Exactly, Suzanne. It depends on the story. What you would do with that, Deb, is have to make up things to fit in the pattern. Never force a pattern on a story.
<BklynWriter> yup, that's exactly what I did.
<BklynWriter> I see it now, but didn't realize it then
<@zette> (grin) Good. That's easy to fix.
<@zette> Stories need to flow. Forcing them into some pattern that doesn't work with what you're trying to tell isn't going to make a better story.
<Izunya> I may have done that with my story . . . hmmm.
<@zette> One last note on how much background/detail to use. Think of it as a sense of the place, but not a history of that place.
<BklynWriter> I've added a few details about the world, but didn't explain them...isn't that confusing for the reader?
<@zette> You don't want to make it too easy for your character, but you don't want to give her anything that's just placed there to give them something to do. A problem always has to logically advance the story, even when the character fails.
<@zette> No, Deb, not usually. Depends, of course, on the details. But a reader just needs enough to feel part of the place.
<Suzanne> I also really as a reader like when I have to figure out a place in a story
<@zette> Here's something else -- the explaining how the gas engine works. We drive in cars, but we don't stop and think about how they work. That's how your details should be presented. Your character (if they are in their own world/culture and not a stranger) knows what everything is. She's not going to stop and think about how it works.
<Izunya> Bklyn: As a science fiction and fantasy reader, I'm
very used to having to figure out an invented word or so.
<Izunya> I don't know whether I'm typical, but I think I might be.
<BklynWriter> can I give a specific example?
<Suzanne> Yes, yes, it is one of the real joys of reading SF&F
<@zette> True, Izunya. I think we all work that way. As long as we see where it fits into the world, we don't need to have it explained.
<Gayle> yeah...I read sf/f too...you are either pulled into the world or you're not
<BklynWriter> in my universe, there are these small robots called "bill-bots" they are robotic advertising billboards, small dog sized, and they're everywhere, they are a general annoyance
<@zette> That's a good description right there. That's about all you would need for a short story.
<Gayle> oh...like the pop up ads on certain sites BK?
<BklynWriter> yup Gayle.... they're like those annoying poochi toys
<Izunya> My first thought was, "Oh! Spam with legs!"
<@zette> LOL! I love it!
<BklynWriter> lol!! @ Izunya
<@zette> But a reader would understand that with very little description. And it says a LOT about your culture as well. Marketing/sales are important.
<Izunya> <g> Glad to be of entertainment value.
<Gayle> see BK...you got reactions from all of us from where we are
<BklynWriter> yes, thanks, its very encouraging!!
<@zette> I think it's a great bit!
<@zette> Anyone have any other questions right now? I could go into the next section, but maybe we should hold that for the next class.
<@zette> Anyone find any of this tonight helpful at all?
<BklynWriter> definitely...I've got lots of cutting ahead of me lol
<BklynWriter> and some of the stuff I can move to my November novel
<Suzanne> Yes. More and more dead words on the floor!
<Gayle> only question I have is are we going to have a four class after all? And yes, it's been very helpful...might even get the silly story started...again
<Izunya> I like the "third one this month," trick. I can definitely find a use for that.
<@zette> I think we can do four. Let me check the calendar!
<Gayle> it will fit nicely in my short story too....
<Gayle> okay...
<gayle> did that one to myself I did
<@zette> It looks like the first cleared spot isn't until next Sunday or so. Why don't we see how much we can cover tomorrow, and then choose after that? And remember that I'm always open to questions outside of class. But I like having a group to talk with. You all have great points and questions!
<gayle> that sounds good to me
<@zette> What might work is go through tomorrow, take a couple days to write, then get back together to see where people are stuck, and talk about marketing.
<Izunya> Fine by me.
<BklynWriter> sounds good. Extremely helpful zette
<gayle> that sounds even better
<Suzanne> Sounds good to me. Thanks zette
<@zette> Sunday or Monday?
<Suzanne> Monday?
<@zette> Monday is good for me. Gives everyone the weekend to work on stuff, too.
<@zette> What about the rest of you?
<gayle> I'm going to say Monday simply because I'm not sure what's happening around here on Sunday
<Izunya> Works for me.
<@zette> I'll grab the Monday at 9pm spot then.
Lazette Gifford
Moderator, Holly Lisle's Forward Motion for Writers
Managing Editor, Holly Lisle's Vision (
http://lazette.net/vision)
Home Page:
http://lazette.net
Caution: Reality ahead! Approach with care, and only for the purpose of study.