<JimMills> Yes, I think I can paste. Let's get started. Viking Mythos - some of this is a repetition of what I posted months ago. Some is new to this board. (paste worked)
<Robert> I did that to dorayan but he
wanted to come back and was sick of being dead even in paradise.
<JimMills> A whole lot of cut and paste follows... then we can discuss whatever...
<JimMills> The Vikings were a Teutonic people who established themselves in the Scandinavian areas between the 8th and 11th centuries.
<JimMills> They lived in lands which were not particularly hospitable to life -- the summers were short and the winters long, and always the glaciers in the north seemed threatening.
<JimMills> They tried to explain the things they saw around them by saying it was the work of the gods. They developed a creation mythos to explain everything, few records of which survive.
<JimMills> Those that do survive come mostly from Iceland. In the beginning there was not quite nothing. There was an endless space and a god called Allfather, often confusingly identified with Odin, who was invisible and who had existed forever.
<JimMills> The huge abyss of emptiness was called Ginnungagap. Long before Earth, there came to exist Yggdrasil, the World Tree, an ash that would link all of the nine worlds.
<JimMills> Muspell was one of the nine worlds under a root of the tree, to the south, a world so hot that anyone not native would be consumed. A giant called Surt guarded it with a fiery sword.
<JimMills> Niflheim was to the north under another root, a land of mist and darkness.
<JimMills> Directly below that was Hvergelmir, a bubbling cauldron that supplied water for the rivers. Nidhug, a repellent dragon, gnawed away at the roots of the tree of life. When it kills the tree, all creation will end.
<JimMills> As the waters fell into Ginnungagap, great streams froze and became huge blocks of ice. Embers from Muspell fell onto the ice, forming great clouds of steam.
<JimMills> The steam turned into rime, filling Ginnungagap. Cold rain to the north and glowing embers to the south filled the world with the ocean.
<JimMills> Ymir, first of the frost giants came out of the ocean (presumably a random act of chaos -- they don't really say.).
<JimMills> The thawing of the rime created a cow, Audhumla, whose udders gave off milk that fed Ymir. The cow kept licking the ice until a man appeared, whose name was Buri.
<JimMills> Ymir had been sleeping and sweating. From the sweat of his left armpit were born the first man and woman. Ymir's legs copulated with each other and produced more frost giants.
<JimMills> Buri became forefather of the gods. He had a son (no mention of the mother) and the two of them began to battle the evil frost giants.
<JimMills> Borr married a giantess called Bestla and sired three great sons: Odin, Vili and Ve.
<JimMills> These three, with their father, slew Ymir. All the giants drowned in the flood of Ymir's blood, except two who fled to Jotunheim.
<JimMills> Odin, Vili and Ve were left with Ymir's corpse, which they chopped up to make up the parts of the physical world.
<JimMills> Our world of mortals, Midgard, they made from Ymir's flesh; the giant's blood filled the oceans, his unbroken bones became the mountains, and his broken bones, teeth and bits of his jaw became cliffs, rocks and shoals.
<JimMills> His skull became the dome of the sky. Four dwarves were made to hold it aloft. Ymir's brains became the clouds. It goes on and on.
<JimMills> The three gods created the race of human beings, the first of which were Ask, meaning ash tree, and the first woman Embla, possible meaning elm.
<JimMills> They created the realm of Asgard where the gods live, and they made the moon and sun. There are alternative versions saying the sun and moon were a man and woman.
<JimMills> Odin fathered a race of gods, each with his own domain and purpose. The lists go on and on. Mostly, the gods and giants were responsible for all good and bad things on Earth.
<JimMills> The crashing of thunder must be Thor throwing his mighty hammer, Miolnir, at the frost giants.
<JimMills> The cracking of the glaciers must be the cries of the frost giants themselves. The rainbow must surely be a bridge between the land of the gods and the land of the mortals.
<JimMills> Ull was the god of winter. Some versions of Norse mythology tell how each year, in the summer, Ull is forced to spend some months in Hel so that Odin, in his guise as the god of summer, can govern the weather.
<JimMills> The Aurora Borealis was believed to be Ull putting on a visual display. There are alternate stories for the gods of winter and summer; the Norse mythos seem to have many and often contradictory stories.
<JimMills> Hraesvelgr was a giant whose name means 'corpse eater'. He sat in the far north in the guise of an eagle; the cold winds from there were the result of him flapping his wings.
<JimMills> The gods were famed for dispensing wisdom about life on Earth, how people should act, how they should treat friends and enemies, etc.
<JimMills> That about does it for my prepared materials. Any discussion or questions?
<Robert> Could you list all of the nine worlds, please?
<James> It seems a much more hostile worldview than the Egyptian one -- though I suppose that's down to the comparative niceness of the Nile valley vs Iceland.
<JimMills> I wish I could, but I only found references to a few... Asgard, Niflheim, Muspel, Midgard, Jotunheim...
<Robert> I have a source that does, would you like me to post them? I can grab off the shelf behind me, take just a sec
<JimMills> Yes, James, and their mythos were also used to justify their warlike ways. They didn't behave the same at home. They treated enemies differently than friends.
<James> Hi Jinx -- oh, and BK, didn't notice you there
<Jinx> Hello! Sorry I'm late - just got home.
<JimMills> Np... I'll post the log after.
<JimMills> Robert: yes, if you would, that would be nice.
<James> It strikes me again and again seeing the various creation myths that the leaps of logic are sometimes just incredible. You wonder how a group of people discussing the creation of the world would come up with copulating giant legs?
<Lucas> In a lot of fantasy books, mythology is almost reality, meaning that there are gods, spirits, etc. How often has anyone here found a fantasy story that not only had confirmable magic but also had a "mythology" of explanations that could neither be proved or disproved?
<JimMills> Well, I have to assume that the giants and such were formed somewhat oddly by our standards.
<Robert> This is from "Northern Magic" by Edred Thorsson
<James> Could you clarify your question, Lucas - I'm not sure I understand.
<Robert> Asgard, home of the gods. Hel, home of the dead. Ljossalfheimr - Alfheim, home of light elves.
<Robert> Opposite Svartalfheim home of dark elves (dwarves if you read Tolkein)
<Robert> Vanaheim home of the Vanir the other tribe of gods
<Robert> Etinheim or Jotunheim home of giants
<Robert> Muspelheim realm of fire. Niflheim realm of ice, mentioned.
<Robert> Midgardr or Middle Earth, ours.
<JimMills> I think that's ten.
<Robert> A
lot of Tolkein is based on Norse mythology.
<JimMills> A lot of stories are... or at least draw elements from them. Then, too, Tolkien spent decades world building.
<Robert> Nope, that's nine. Two names for Jotunheim possibly different language?
<Lucas> James -
<Lucas> What I mean is, in a fantasy you sometimes have gods or spirits that act directly on the world. I was wondering about instances where, along with the demonstratable dieties and magic, you also have mythological explanations for world events (thunder, seasons, etc.) that are not confirmed by the "science" of magic.
<Robert> That's a really good point, Lucas, and something I might do in the world I'm building now - throw in some local mythology that's unprovable and not credited to a particular god or goddess.
<James> I can't think of any off hand -- but I'm sure they must exist. Any fantasy novel set in a sufficiently primitive world probably has purely mythological explanations for their natural phenomena.
<James> But it is an interesting question - a reminder maybe not to tie up too many of our loose ends when world building.
<JimMills> That is, if the writer made it so... many seem to prefer to write fantasies where the gods are remote, but grant magic powers.
<Robert> Sometimes I wonder though, if many of these peoples automatically take the 'this is like science cosmology' approach to the stories - because contemporary people do take Genesis literally, would that mean that old Norse people or native Americans or any other group necessarily think of these stories as literal?
<JimMills> That's part of the purpose for these classes... to help us learn to build more believable myth systems.
<Lucas> They often use avatars, but not intercede directly. Yes.
<Robert> If the hearers did not expect the stories to be literal, but meaningful because they're about the gods, they would not be bothered by contradictions.
<JimMills> I think that usually stories about gods were meant to convey to the listeners how they should behave in life.
<James> Surely not the Greek ones - with all that squabbling, adultery, murder and deceit
<Robert> Right, the moral of the story being the important part of it.
<JimMills> Well, not all stories... some were to show what not to do.
<Robert> Giving hospitality and not attacking guest or host was a big moral point.
<Lucas> That must have been at least one of the purposes of them, with the gods cast as larger-than-life players to demonstrate points about life.
<JimMills> Maybe they read the Maass book all those hundreds of years ago... he advocates larger than life characters.
<James> So the Greeks were going for a Breakthrough Mythology
<JimMills> Yep. <g>
<Robert> Odin did the same test of hospitality that Zeus did - ran around disguised as a ragged stranger knocking on doors in bad weather, was turned away from a couple of prosperous households and taken in by a poor one, he rewarded the poor couple lavishly and revealed himself.
<Robert> I love it! The Breakout Mythology!
<Lucas> They must have done it, made a Breakout Mythology. What is the first thing you think of when you hear mythology? Zues and the rest of the greek gods.
<JimMills> That's just the most famous in the English-speaking world. There are many mythologies.
<Robert> I thought of the Egyptian but I'm weird.
<Lucas> Or possibly the egyptian ones. That would be my second thought.
<Robert> Homer wrote a Breakout Mythology. Most of the Greek is told within the Iliad and Odyssey and those are still bestsellers.
<Lucas> Well, that's true. There are a LOT of mythologies.
<JimMills> Any comments, BK or Jinx? You gonna let these guys do all the talkin'?
<Jinx> Um.... yes. <g>
<JimMills> lol
<James> Hey, I'm talking for several people, remember
<BKi'm no> i'm not very well versed in any mythologies...i'm hear to learn as much as i can
<BKi'm no> off the top of my head though, i'm partial to Greek and Egyptian
<Lucas> Heh, I just saw an add on TV about the movie "Jack and the Beanstalk: The real story". That's a fairy tale through, not a myth, but I think they're close.
<JimMills> Well, I'm not an expert -- I just read a few books.
<JimMills> Fairy tales are a sort of adjunct to mythology, I think.
<Robert> This is an aspect of my religion but you volunteered so I was relieved. <G>
<Lucas> Does anyone know of some good sources for information about japanese myths? Particularly any that mention kitsune?
<James> Well, Lucas, it's funny you should ask -- we're always on the hunt for people to research and present a given myth system: you could claim Japanese, if you're interested...
<Robert> When I do one I want to pick one that I don't know that well and do research.
<BK> i'd like to do some research on Voudoun and Santeria
<James> If you do, BK, you know where we are when you get your notes together
<Jim> Someone did some work on Japanese mythos... see the notes on the mythology board.
<Lucas> So that's what that board is for... I'm still working on figuring out the parts of this site.
<Robert> I'll bite for Polynesian if that hasn't been done.
<Jim> You may have to scroll down or look on subsequent pages.
<Jim> I don't think polynesian was done here.
<Robert> Then stick me on the schedule somewhere after several more of them, give me a good month to go looking it up and studying and prepare.
<James> Oh, Polynesian would be interesting.
<Jinx> I sure was glad that board was put on "What's Hot". I didn't even know it existed before then.
<Robert> I want to do island people again sometime n a really nice climate, so researching more than one island mythology will help me get a feel for it. <G>
<Robert> "What's hot" is a great convenience.
<Jim> Lynn, who started these classes, wanted it kept private - for class participants only. But when she dropped out, I asked Holly to make it public. And I made the classes open.
<BK> definitely..its my home page lol
<Robert> That makes it such a great resource. Thanks, Jim!
<Jinx> I'm sure glad you did, Jim!
<Jim> You're welcome. :-}
<James> I think we might have slowly petered out, if you hadn't.
<Lucas> Ooh, there is a bibliography thread with japan stuff and another item. If I have relevant links or book titles, should I just post them to that board?
<Jim> Yes... there was plenty of interest... just the ball got fumbled and I had to pick it up. Go ahead and post them, Lucas. Who's up for a presentation next week?
<James> I'm on leave for five weeks - so you can imagine I don't want to go anywhere near the library (where I work) for awhile. Didn't Sheila claim next week for Native American?
<Jinx> I think Sheila's tentatively doing hers on American Indians
<Jim> Ok, cool... I'll remind her. <g>
<Robert> She posted that. So I think she's up next.
<Jinx> At least that's what she posted. The 8th, right?
<James> Yep
<Robert> Yep - that's the date.
<Jim> Yes... next Saturday is the 8th.
<Jim> Any more questions about Norse myths or myths in general?
<BK> are all the transcripts posted?
<Jim> Mostly, yes... Lynn posted some on the myths board and I've been posting on the transcripts board.
<BK> ok gotta go check them out
<James> They were one of the myth systems with a predefined end to creation, weren't they, in Ragnarok? Do you have any Ragnarok material?
<Lucas> Does anyone know if Loki ever turned into a fox?
<Robert> Loki was a shapeshifter who could turn into anything. He turned into a mare and mothered Odin's eight legged horse, Sleipnir
<Jim> James: Probably... I'd have to dig it out. The Grant book was the most useful to me...
An Intoduction to Viking Mythology.
<Robert> Thor has his own comic book and the stories are still popular today.
<James> Gotcha -- I'll unearth it when I get back to work. Thanks.
<Jim> The stories in the comic are not totally true to the mythos, tho.
<Lucas> What a surprise... Heh.
<Jim> For example, Thor is smart. In myth, Thor was pretty dumb.
<Robert> Neither is Kevin Sorbo's Hercules but hey, the characters still endure.
<Jim> lol
<Jinx> Did you guys need me to do a class? I'm willing, but have no particular area of expertise.
<BK> is Xena based on a real myth? (i know dumb question)
<Robert> I disagree on whether Thor was dumb in myth. He was often up against tricksters but he was clever too.
<James> But Xena's real, right?
<James> Whoa, snap BK.
<Jim> Jinx - pick a mythos, research it and make a presentation.
<Robert> Jinx, I deliberately volunteered for one I *don't* know well to do research and learn by preparing. I'd be grateful if you do.
<Jim> R: it depends on which source you read.
<Jinx> Any particular one? Any preferences?
<Jim> How about South American or African mythos?
<Lucas> African - Like with quinkins?
<Robert> The time Thor dressed up as Freya to fool the giant that was blackmailing the gods to marry her was a trickster prank (and says something about how heavy Old Norse wedding veils are!)
<Jim> Not sure what that is, Lucas. There are many African mythos, tho.
<Jinx> How about I pick something from South America? When I have a clue, I'll post on the Myth board.
<James> You know, we could also look at assigning myth types - I mean, someone wouldn't present a class on one country's myths, but, say, on creation myths from many countries, or explanatory myths, or whatever.
<Jim> Jinx: Works for me. See what kinds of research materials you can find and go for it.
<Jinx> Or I could do one of those <points to James> <g>
<Robert> That's a neat topic - just "creations" or "end of the world myths" as well as ethnic ones.
<Jim> That involves a lot more research than just reading one myth system, tho.
<BK> my grandmother was into Santeria when i was a child, and it still kinda spooks me out...iwould like to do that one, but not just yet...i'm still NaNo-ing at the moment
<Lucas> Jim - I'm not sure if that's the right spelling, but quinkens or quinkins or whatever are creatures in some myths of native africans, possibly the "bushmen". The same groups that said a rainbow colored snake created the contours of the world.
<James> A good encyclopedia and a couple of evenings on the net would probably be enough to get something together -- enough for a rough comparison.
<Jim> k... whatever you choose will be ok. :-}
<BK> oddly enough, i've heard a few creation myths on Reading Rainbow, and another Nickelodeon children's show
<James> We could also, occasionally, do a session where someone presents a detailed discussion of the ficitonal myth system they're working on, and everyone workshops it during the question sessions.
<Robert> That PBS show with the fantasizing dog. Wussname. Did some African mythology, Spider stories.
<Jim> Some of the research materials I found were in the library's juvenile area... not too useful, tho.
<BK> yeah that may have been it Robert
<Lucas> Robert - Probably the anansi stuff. That's a popular set.
<Jim> James: that works, too... I did that once.
<BK> I have an acquaintance who is a Yoruba priestess....i can pick her brain as well
<James> It would probably be a lot of fun.
<Robert> Yes, that's it. Anansi stories as portrayed by a little spotted dog, fun and funny.
<James> Picking the brain of a Yoruba priestess sounds like a hell of a way to spend the weekend.
<Lucas> Some of those anansi stories are remarkably lude. I'm betting they didn't use any of those.
<Lucas> Ok, not remarkably, but a bit.
<James> Imagine ending a phone call, "Look, sorry, gotta go -- I have to pick the brain of a Yoruba priestess..."
<BK> all i remember is the dog playing the trickster monkey-god in a tree
<BK> LOL @ James
<Jim> Lucas: So were Ymir's legs.
<Lucas> Yes, but those weren't on a saturday morning cartoon show either.
<Jim> True. Anything else to discuss?
<Jim> Ok... I'm going to go then... see you all next week! Thanks for coming!
<BK> and thank you!!
<James> Having just had a lot of caffeine, I could probably chatter forever -- but no, I'm tapped out. Thanks for presenting the class, Jim.
<Lucas> Sure. I guess I've run dry on topics for the time.
<Robert> See you later! Thanks, Jim!
<James> Catch you all next Saturday.
<Jim> You're welcome... night all.
<Jinx> Night, all!
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