<@SLVIehl> Okay, let's get this show on the road. Welcome to Manuscript Submissions and Publisher's Guidelines, I'm your host, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLVIehl> I am in the unique position of having submitted over 1000 requests for consideration to publishers
<@SLVIehl> so when I say this is my area of expertise, you can trust me.
<labloch> holy moly...
<Anon_85> makes me want to quit
<Robert> Makes me think the 'oyster breeding strategy' for getting published is a good idea...
<@SLVIehl> Never quit, that's part of the battle. Tonight we're going to talk about what you need to do to put together a great submission, and who you need to send it to.
<@SLVIehl> Since we've got a full house, I'm going to present the information to you as quickly as possible. When I throw up the word QUESTIONS, that's when to ask me stuff. And I hope to use most of the second hour for open Q&A
<domynoe (much less cluesless)> will this cover short stories as well as novels? or is this for everything? (yes, my newbieness is showing)
<@SLVIehl> Everyone ready?
<James> Yep!
<labloch> good to go
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<BlairB> good to go
<Robert> Yep
<@SLVIehl> This will cover all submissions, domynoe
<anon_00> ok
<Crista> <waves her fork> Yis.
<Lucas> Locked and loaded.
<Sarah> Yup
<domynoe (much less cluesless)> coolies...good to go then
<BklynWriter> go
<@SLVIehl> All right. First, the nuts and bolts of what you need to prepare a professional submission
<@SLVIehl> All submissions should be printed on plain white good quality letter sized paper. 8-1/2X11 inches. I use 20 lb. #84 brightness xerographic paper.
<@SLVIehl> Do not use track feed paper unless the preforated ends break cleanly
<@SLVIehl> Do not use any colored paper. White only.
<@SLVIehl> Do not put pictures or graphics or any cute pictorial image on anything you send.
<@SLVIehl> Print your submission using a laser jet, inkjet, bubblejet or other quality printer that produces dark, clean type.
<@SLVIehl> Most publishers do not want to see dot matrix printed submissions.
<@SLVIehl> If you're using a typewriter, use a new ribbon. Avoid white out.
<@SLVIehl> Do not hand write corrections on your manuscript. Type the page over.
<@SLVIehl> Make sure your submission is absolutely as error-free as you can make. Read everything three times, minimum. Use your spell checker if you have one. Draft a friend to read your submission, sometimes other people can spot errors you keep skipping.
<@SLVIehl> When you submit, use a padded envelope or plain cardboard box.
<@SLVIehl> Do not submit your manuscript in a Pampers box.
<Crista> LOL.
<@SLVIehl> Make sure you mark the outside of the envelope or box with the words "Submission for consideration" or some other phrase that will identify it as a submission
<@SLVIehl> If the editor has asked to look at it, put the words "Requested material" along with that
<@SLVIehl> If you want the manuscript back, include means and postage -- a self addressed, stamped envelope or box
<@SLVIehl> Writers Digest, btw, sells specially designed "box with boxes" for that specific purposeif you'd rather go that way.
<@SLVIehl> Your submission should be clean -- no dog hair, no cat hair, no coffee stains.
<@SLVIehl> Do not spray it with cologne or perfume.
<@SLVIehl> Do not put anything else in the envelope. This includes bribe money
<@SLVIehl> QUESTIONS
<labloch> is MS format later?
<labloch> (coming later)
<@SLVIehl> Coming right up, labloch
<labloch> ok.
<Robert> For short story submission, are plain manila envelopes of the 100 to a box variety okay?
<Sarah> Handwrite address and "requested material" or labels?
<@SLVIehl> That's fine, Robert.
<@SLVIehl> If you have neat handwriting, yes, Sarah, though it looks more pro if you type the labels
<Anne_Marble> I've heard some publishers changed submissions guidelines because of the anthrax scare. Did a lot of publishers do that? Is it really just an excuse to avoid unsolicited submissions?
<domynoe> why padded envelopes? does the paper have to be 84 bright? i think i use 90?
<Robert> <sigh of relief> I jut got rid of the Last Excuse yesterday and got a box.
<domynoe> i got manilla envelopes but not padded
<James> I keep bumping up against people saying international submissions should use US stamps for return postage rather than International Reply Coupons, but occasionally hear that IRCs are okay - do you have an opinion, Sheila?
<@SLVIehl> Anne, a lot of publishers and writers are concerned about the ongoing mail problem. I'll address this further on, but I think it is directly related to the anthrax attacks and not a diversionary tactic
<labloch> I actually see some agents and
some markets asking for email queries.
<@SLVIehl> Domynoe, if the paper is white, no problem. I was just referencing what I use with the #84.
<BlairB> is there a benefit to having the mss sent back? do the editors usually make notes on them?
<Robert> I wish they would, I wish they would...
<@SLVIehl> Padded envelopes protect your manuscript better. It arrives in better shape. You can make your own padding by purchasing bubble wrap,
<domynoe> oh! where do you get bubblewrap? like a mailboxes etc or something?
<@SLVIehl> According to guidelines, James, they always ask for IRCs. I only use IRCs myself.
<Anne_Marble> I've heard some editors claim they look down on writers who use disposable manuscripts (because it can't mean that much to you if you allow them to toss it), yet others were critical of writers who didn't! <sigh>
<Robert> Staples had a huge box of it for $25 yestrday
<James> Thanks for that - I've been (very prematurely) worrying.
<@SLVIehl> Labloch brought up an interesting point -- because of the anthrax scare, some publishers are accepting electronic submissions now. This is really cost effective for you, so keep an eye out for those that do.
<@SLVIehl> Blair, I sometimes recycled manuscripts when I was poor so I always asked for them back. Generally, they don't make notes on them but they do spill a lot of stuff on them.
<@SLVIehl> Domynoe, you can purchase bubble wrap at most post offices or pack and ship places.
<Lucas> As long as they don't spill talcum powder on it...
<James> If you use a pampas box, you're asking for talcum powder, surely...
<@SLVIehl> I don't think an editor would look down on someone for sending a disposal manuscript. I think not having to send it back is one less thing for them to do, Anne.
<Anne_Marble> I think Writer's Digest often found the weirdest editors just to get quotes that played with the minds of their readers. ;->
<@SLVIehl> One more note -- keep a list of what you send and who you send it to, and when you send it and when you expect a response. Check off items as you get responses. This keeps you from sending two submissions of the same thing to the same publisher.
<@SLVIehl> Now, on to Query Letters
<@SLVIehl> A query letter is the shortest form of submission. It's just a letter pitching your idea to an editor -- no sample chapters, synopses, or manuscript go with it.
<@SLVIehl> The query letter should describe the main premise of your book, the word count, the genre you're writing for, and offer the editor the opportunity to consider it.
<@SLVIehl> You can include writing credits, if they're major, but keep them brief.
<@SLVIehl> The easiest way to think of a query is like an introduction at a party -- you're not going to sit down and tell your entire life story to a person you've just met
<@SLVIehl> Unless, of course, it's George Clooney, but he's mine. lol
<@SLVIehl> Editors love one page query letters.
<@SLVIehl> Learn to write them.
<@SLVIehl> I have heard some authors say "Pack as much as you can into the query letter. Go two, three, four pages if you have to."
<@SLVIehl> Bad idea
<@SLVIehl> The editor loses interest after the third paragraph
<labloch> the idea's to intrigue, eh
<@SLVIehl> The ideal query is three paragraphs long. About half a page.
<@SLVIehl> You open with a dazzling hook line:
<@SLVIehl> Shooting a bear in the middle of a blizzard is one thing, finding out you've shot a homeless man wrapped in a bear skin is another.
<@SLVIehl> You tell the editor about the book -- nuts and bolts again here:
<@SLVIehl> My contemporary romance novel "Dream Mountain" tells the story of what happens to a stranded woman in the Colorado mountains who does just this.
<@SLVIehl> It's 75,000 words in length, and I'd love to have the chance to send it to you for your consideration
<@SLVIehl> Condense, condense, condense
<@SLVIehl> Then you wrap it up:
<@SLVIehl> I've enclosed a self addressed, stamped evelope for your convenience, and I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks!
<@SLVIehl> Sign it and mail it and you're done
<@SLVIehl> Now, you can fit in a bit more description of your main premise than I did right there, but that's the general idea of a query
<@SLVIehl> Be friendly -- don't be obnoxious, self-important, or pompous. Say thanks, I'd love to, write as you would talk to them.
<@SLVIehl> Just keep it short
<@SLVIehl> And probably the most important part of query is the opening line
<@SLVIehl> you want to grab the editor's attention:
<@SLVIehl> If you sent a radiotelescope signal to the center of the galaxy, what would you do if someone answered?
<@SLVIehl> Being eighty-seven, crippled, and having a viper for a daughter-in-law is no picnic -- especially when she's trying to kill you
<@SLVIehl> Pose a question to the editor. Get them involved in your idea with the approach of "What would you think if . . . ?"
<@SLVIehl> Be daring -- "Have you ever met a man so infuriating you wanted to push him off a high-rise building?"
<@SLVIehl> Be thrilling -- "How does an ethical neurologist treat headless human patients who have developed minds of their own elsewhere?"
<@SLVIehl> Don't be dull in your opening line.
<@SLVIehl> This is where you really have to show your writing talent. So show it.
<@SLVIehl> QUESTIONS
<Lucas> I might just be being a little perverse here, but if the question format for an opening line is such a good one, won't it be the one the editor has seen so many times that it doesn't stand out anymore?
<Robert> What if the black cats in the streets of New Orleans had their own magical tradition older than voudoun - and had to use it to save the city from evil magic?
<Lucas> Or is it the sort of thing that stands the "test of time"?
<domynoe> do you always send a query letter? if not, when don't you? like magazines have open submissions, so do you query a fantasy mag (for example)?
<Anne_Marble> How do you know which credits to include? Do they have to be related? Do they have to be novels or stories, or are articles OK? What about on-line (but paying) gigs?
<@SLVIehl> Lucas, if the question is story-specific, it shouldn't be one the editor has seen before. It also presents a lot of information in a small space.
<@SLVIehl> There you go, Robert
<Robert> I've written thirtyish novels, shoudl I bash that one up before querying or just send it?
<@SLVIehl> Domynoe, you should always include a cover letter, if not a query letter, unless the rules of a contest prohibit it.
<Robert> It's on my WIP list and I could get it done in a month.
<Crista> Do all the same aspects of a query letter apply to one setnt o agent's, too? Or are there additional thing that agents need in the letter?
<@SLVIehl> Anne, I think the credits have to be major. I'd go for print, related to the genre, and the most prestigious. You can also offer to send a list of your previous publications rather than list them in the query itself.
<bklyn> what do you do when you're torn betwen loyalty to an earth that abandoned you and the aliens that have embraced you?
<domynoe> so, always query, or at least include a cover letter. (yes, am restating...i'm adhd and sometimes to get it i have to do that.)
<James> Where you mentioned, earlier, writing "requested material" on the envelope - is that after they've responded to this first query letter asking for a more detailed proposal, or only later when they've (hopefully) asked for the whole manuscript?
<Sarah> What about the Asimov Award as a credit?
<domynoe> credits = stuff i've previously printed, right?
<@SLVIehl> Crista, you have to sell an agent on you rather than a specific novel, if you've got more than one you want to get out there. If it's your first novel, then I'd query the agent much the same way I'd query an editor.
<Lucas> As an aside: I know a guy who had an eight page resume. I think someone told him that not even god had an eight page resume. I'm guessing he would have sucked at writing querry letters.
<@SLVIehl> Good hook line there, Deb
<Crista> Ah. Thanks.
<James> Surely God would have stopped on the seventh page?
<domynoe> ROTFL!
<bklyn> thanks sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Hee hee
<domynoe> opening lines...could you use a quote from the novel/story?
<Lucas> Or maybe only one. A page is as long as he says it is, after all.
<@SLVIehl> Oh, good point James -- everyone, listen up: Do NOT write requested materal on your envelope unless someone has actually requested it. Some unscrupulous folks do this, thinking to fool the editor, but editor knows what he/she has asked to see.
<Crista> What would you do if you were thrown twenty years into a future where your husband hates you, your children have become monsters, and you are dead?
<labloch> that's a sure way to get blacklisted
<@SLVIehl> James, requested goes for partials and totals on responding -- forgot to add that in.
<Anne_Marble> I think I read an article in one of the mags where an author told aspiring writers to
lie about things like "I met you at the so-and-so convention..." That could blow up in your face SO easily.
<@SLVIehl> So you put requested material on anything the editor asks to see, is what I'm trying to say
<James> Thanks for that. I'm a million years from doing it, but I like to know
<domynoe> i have a short story i have to find a magazine for...lol
<@SLVIehl> I like that one, Crista. Spoooooky
<Anne_Marble> Besides, if you're going to go to the trouble to lie, why not put that energy into writing?!
<@SLVIehl> Okay, let's move on to the book proposal
<domynoe> (maybe after i post it here for soem input...already beat it to death at the del rey workshop)
<Anne_Marble> What is "Beep on Whisper if Idle"?!
<Lucas> It means you'll be notified if you've lapsed to idle status and someone sends you a whisper message.
<@SLVIehl> A book proposal consists of a query or cover letter, a sample of the actual novel and/or a complete synopsis and/or chapter summaries
<@SLVIehl> All this is based on what the editor requests after responding to your initial query, or is spelled out in the publisher's guidelines.
<@SLVIehl> With the exception of sending a complete manuscript, a book proposal is the most complete way to pitch your book
<@SLVIehl> Same rule applies here to the letter -- keep it short and sweet. If you're sending requested material, open with that in your letter: "In response to your letter dated . . . "
<@SLVIehl> If you're submitting according to guidelines, make the opening line on the cover letter the same as the query hook.
<@SLVIehl> The other elements of the book proposal: chapter summaries
<@SLVIehl> This is a schematic of your novel, in paragraph form. Each paragraph describes one chapter, in three to five sentences.
<@SLVIehl> A synopsis is very much like chapter summaries, except it is not broken down by chapter, and it is more like a review of your own book, minus the praise or boos.
<@SLVIehl> A rather lengthy review, I should say
<@SLVIehl> In both the chapter summaries and the synopsis, you use broad stroke descriptions and avoid minute detail
<@SLVIehl> You may also choose to inclue a professiona resume or prior publication information sheet
<@SLVIehl> If you're already published, this is a given, you have to send it
<@SLVIehl> It should be one page long (unless you're Nora Roberts)
<@SLVIehl> and list your professional credits.
<@SLVIehl> When I say professional, I do not mean every single thing of yours that has been in print since you were in the fourth grade
<@SLVIehl> That you give to your mother
<@SLVIehl> Just stick to the major credits.
<@SLVIehl> And again, and I can't stress this enough, skip the colored paper, the graphics, the cutesy stuff.
<@SLVIehl> It's not professional.
<@SLVIehl> You can and really should include a business card. As long as that looks professional, too.
<@SLVIehl> QUESTIONS
<bklyn> would you include credits for another genre? say SF credits to a romance publisher?
<Robert> Would subsuming a lot of minor credits in things like 'and over a hundred stories published in Internet e-magazines... be appropriate?
<@SLVIehl> Absolutely, Deb. It shows range in your talent.
<bklyn> i was under the impression that pubs. frowned on crossing the genres
<bklyn> next q: what about pseudonym credits?
<@SLVIehl> If you keep it very general, Robert -- I wouldn't list names and publication sites
>@SLVIehl< its 10 o'clock.
<Robert> Thanks!
<@SLVIehl> Yes also to any pseudonym credits, as long as they're major.
<Anne_Marble> Unless one or more of them was published by Ellen Datlow.
<bklyn> kewl
<@SLVIehl> Blair informs me that it's ten o'clock, so why don't we take five?
<Robert> Other question - if my proposal is for a theme anthology or collection of short stories is that the same thing with a thumbnail of each story?
<Crista> On the business card, would just name, address, and contact info be included, or is there something special about them? And, if not, why is it more professional to include them? I already have some business cards, but they aren't anything fancy...
<@SLVIehl> One liner thumbnails of the best, Robert, is what I'd do -- and write "And this includes . . . "
<domynoe> i still wanted to know if a really good quote from the manuscript was an ok opening line for the query letter. i did ask before, but i know in these chats (without colored text or spaces to distinquixh things) stuff gets missed
<@SLVIehl> Crista, a lot of times people stick cards in their wallets. It's an old habit. They throw away paper but they tend to keep cards.
<Anne_Marble> Off to nuke a poor helpless corndog.
<@SLVIehl> And the cards shouldn't be fancy. Go for classy rather than loud
<James> If there's to be a break, I might just nip away and grab a drink (it's quite hot in my neck of the woods, so I'm busily dehydrating)...
<Robert> Should I list my self published book as a credit if that's all I've got so thatthey know I'm not sending my first book?
<BlairB> do you know if Editors keep track of things they request to see (much like we track anything send out)?
<Crista> Ah. That makes sense now. <g> Now i can justify why i spent five bucks to get the 'free' business cards. At the time, I just thought it would be cool to have a business card.
<bklyn> venus wants to know can she still pop in?
<@SLVIehl> Whoops, sorry domynoe -- I usually don't quote my work directly in my query -- editors I know don't really like it.
<@SLVIehl> Sure, tell Venus to come on down
<domynoe> is no problem shiela. i'd have problems keeping up even ha;f as well as you have...to easily distracted and overwhelmed
<bklyn> i think chat is about to make an exodus lol
<@SLVIehl> Nip away, James! Yes, Robert, I'd put that as a credit.
<Robert> Boy, I feel so... prepared...
<Sarah> Can I put the Asimov Award as a credit?
<Venus> Hi! thanks for letting me come in late
<@SLVIehl> Crista, business cards are always a good idea. You won't believe how handy they are sometimes.
<bklyn> you are READY robert....go get 'em
<BlairB> welcome V
<@SLVIehl> Sarah, smack me in the head, you just brought up a wonderful point!
<Robert> Hi, Venus!
<Sarah> Okay. <smack>
<@SLVIehl> Yes, yes, yes, include any major awards you've received like Sarah's.
<@SLVIehl> Yo, Venus
<@SLVIehl> Guys, I'll brb -- I must have tea!
<domynoe> (there is going to be a transcript of the class posted right? i'm a little....lost is not quite the right word, but there's no way i am going to remember this)
<Lucas> I think there will be.
<BlairB> yup, it'll be posted.
<Robert> I'm transcribing too, as usual Two Scribes are on duty.
<bklyn> dom...be sure to check out ALL the transcripts...i've printed them out and saved them
<Crista> I'm saving the chat just for my own reference.
<James> I'm back, drink in hand...
<@SLVIehl> Sorry, I'm back, had to put the kettle on. Yes, my two friends Blair and Robert are my scribes, and we will post a transcript of this session
<domynoe> oh good!
not so panicked about missing stuff now lol
<Sarah> Ooh, Emily's downstairs playing the theme from "The Piano"....
<Crista> My memory is like a big open chasm. What goes in is not always recovered. At least not intact.
<bklyn> i'm sorta like Kelly bundy....one thing goes in, sometimes one thing falls out
<@SLVIehl> And if I miss any questions (which is entirely possible) you can always e-mail me. I have a personal addy just for class people -- SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<Crista> LOL. Remember how to write a perfect query letter. Forget how to tie your shoes.
<Robert> This is why I wear loafers.
<bklyn> yup...you got it crista
<bklyn> in NY i forgot how to parallel park for a few moments
<Anne_Marble> Interesting, my corn dogs came with free tattoos. Including a nifty snake tattoo. (I'm not really the Slytherin House type, though...)
<@SLVIehl> I forget to match my shoes. If they match when I leave the house, that's high fashion for me.
<@SLVIehl> one more time, brb
<bklyn> from where Anne?
<Anne_Marble> I forgot how to pull out when I was taking my driving test for the second time.
<Crista> I remember the shoes. Socks are my problem. I'm too poor to buy new ones, so when the dryer eats one, I'll just match up the orphans and call them a pair.
<Venus> I do that all the time Crista
<Venus> Theyre all black--who cares!
<Robert> That's why all of my socks are black or dark.
<Anne_Marble> They're frozen corn dogs from Something Farm. Or Farm Something.
<bklyn> hee hee my son and i tend to share socks
<Crista> Mine are all white... well, mostly.
<@SLVIehl> Okay, is everyone properly fluidated?
<Anne_Marble> Mine used to be white.
<Lucas> Sheila - Are the presentations you make in this class typed up before hand and then pasted in, or are you typing them as we go? It seems like it would be easier to do it by pasting.
<domynoe> yep
<Crista> So do me and my boyfriend. problem is that his feet are about five sizes larger than mine..
<Robert> Yep! Been drinking Memory Enhancer herbal tea
<James> Something Farm - We're Not Sure What We Put In Them...
<Sarah> Mine are either black, or have things like mickey mouse or aliens on them. Or frogs with umbrellas.
<@SLVIehl> I'm typing as I go along. I can't cutnpaste on Holly's site.
<Venus> Morningstar Farm makes corndogs
<Anne_Marble> Foster Farms, that's it!
<@SLVIehl> Good thing I type 90wpm, huh?
<Venus> heh
<Lucas> Eh?
I can cut and paste into this chat room!
<domynoe> i can't either...this particular java doesn't allow it for soem reason
<Robert> So that's the secret... I need to shift to Dvorak
<domynoe> erg...ignore my fumble-fingered misspellings...sigh
<@SLVIehl> Next session, I'm going over to Lucas's house and use that computer.
<bklyn> love your query hook lines Sheila !
<Lucas> Heh heh.
<Robert> Yeah, those are fantastic. I read them on Star Lines before class and roflmao
<Crista> Me, too.
<@SLVIehl> I love writing hook lines. They're fun. But let's press onward
<@SLVIehl> The Manuscript (drum roll)
<Lucas> bum*bum*bum*bum*BAM
<@SLVIehl> All manuscripts should be formatted for submission as follows. This is very important.
<Robert> <brass gong>
<@SLVIehl> You don't schlep 6 pounds of badly formatted paper off on someone.
<domynoe>
falls over
<@SLVIehl> double-spaced on clean white paper, in Courier 12 pt. font, left-flush with paragraph indentations and do not justify the body of the manuscript.
<@SLVIehl> No exceptions.
<@SLVIehl> Unless otherwise specified in the publisher's guidelines, I should say
<@SLVIehl> This is industry standard formatting. Stick to it.
<@SLVIehl> I've heard the one about the four acceptable fonts, so I asked five editors about it.
<@SLVIehl> They want Courier 12 pt.
<@SLVIehl> They don't want anything else.
<@SLVIehl> You WILL number every page of your manuscript at the top right hand corner of each page.
<@SLVIehl> You WILL put an author/title header or footer on each page, as follows AUTHOR/Title, i.e. VIEHL/StarDoc
<@SLVIehl> Just use your last name or the last name of your pseudonym.
<@SLVIehl> I also asked if my editors had a preference for headers or footers -- they like footers.
<@SLVIehl> page numbers, headers and footers must also be in Courier 12pt.
<@SLVIehl> I know you're going to be tempted to do something more creative with your presentation -- but don't.
<@SLVIehl> Stick to industry standard. It's what the pros do.
<@SLVIehl> QUESTIONS
<labloch> (stupid q) what are the footers for?
<Anne_Marble> What about inches?
<Robert> If I sent a proposal and query that looks sufficiently pro, could an editor be fooled into thinking I already am and react favorably?
<BlairB> How big should margins be?
<bklyn> is there a extra space between paragraphs? section breaks?
<Crista> Just out of curiousity, why are footers preferred over headers?
<James> Should the name/title footers be on the left, the right, or centred?
<@SLVIehl> Footers are when the editor drops your manuscript andtwo others. Or is reading several manuscripts at the same time.
<Crista> i was about to ask that, too, James.
<James> Great minds
<@SLVIehl> The footer identifies any given page as belonging to you, and that's important to an editor who may read up to 1000 manuscripts each year. (three per day average)
<Venus> What do you do about special text like scientific equations, maps or diagrams
<@SLVIehl> Anne, one inch margins all the way around. Industry standard.
<@SLVIehl> Good reminder, James -- centered, footers and header should always be centered.
<labloch> doesn't the thingmie on the top right (AUTHOR/TITLE/PG #) do the footer work?
<Anne_Marble> Anyone know how to figure one inch margins via Word?
<James> Ah, thanks - I'd been guessing on the right, like the page number.
<Venus> I do anne--ask me later
<domynoe> ok, so..header: author/title, footer: author only?
<Anne_Marble> OK
<@SLVIehl> Venus, if you have illustrations that belong in the text, you need to have those printed out onto the manuscript in the correct place in the body. If they are maps for the opening of the book, don't send them. Mathematical equations should be printed on the manuscript page, again, where it occurs in the text.
<@SLVIehl> Venus, also same with diagrams.
<Robert> Reflecting it back to you, that's page number upper right, AUTHOR/title centered footer?
<Venus> okay--thanks
<Wolvie> what about a song or a poem? Should they be centered or all lines indented?
<@SLVIehl> Labloch, I'm not sure what program you're using. I have to manually insert my footers (hopefully, not in my mouth.)
<@SLVIehl> Right, Robert.
<Anne_Marble> I mean, in Word, the way you set the margin doesn't seem to translate to margin inches as I think of them. Or maybe my brain wants an easier way.
<@SLVIehl> Domynoe, you don't do both headers and footers -- you do one or the other.
<domynoe> i'm sorry....shiela, could you run what goes in the header versus what goes in the footer again? (i use ms word, been considering rough draft too)
<domynoe> OH!
<domynoe>
lightbulb
<Lucas> Is it ok to have italic text in places? Such as thoughts or telepathic communications?
<@SLVIehl> Italics should not be in actual italics. All words to be italicized should be underlined once.
<labloch> Sorry...I use Word 97. Wait, so if we're supposed to do footers, why do we put the author..etc info on top right? (or am I being really dumb here)
<deb> so its NOT okay to do this:
italic
<@SLVIehl> I just confused everybody on headers and footers. Let me explain that one again, labloch
<@SLVIehl> You put your AUTHOR/Tile either in a header (at the top of the page, centered) or in a footer (at the bottom of the page, centered). Not both.
<Anne_Marble> Does that include the page number?
<@SLVIehl> The only thing that goes at the top right of the page is your page number.
<domynoe> and page number in the header's right hand corner?
<Anne_Marble> Never mind.
<domynoe> umm...lol
<@SLVIehl> I don't put page numbers in with footers. Some authors do. I think it's easier to see page numbers when they're at the top right
<Lucas> Ok, substitute underlined text for italic text. Another question: Should I use single quotes for thoughts, or stick to double quotes?
<domynoe> must of typed and sent as you typed and sent shiela. really, not THAT dense
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, ooh, ooh. Should we use smart quotes? Or dumb quotes?
<domynoe> i use italics for thoughts
<Crista> I've alwasy put the page, title, and name in the upper right hand corner..
<@SLVIehl> Lucas, I don't use quotes for thoughts. I do use italics, when my editor holds a gun to my head.
<domynoe> smart quotes?
<domynoe> ROTFL@shiela
<Anne_Marble> The curly ones
<@SLVIehl> Crista, with short stories, you can do that on the first page. I'd do a footer one every other page, though.
<domynoe> do editors do that very often? hold guns to writers' heads i mean?
<@SLVIehl> I've heard about the problem with "smart quotes" and I wish I could help, but I don't have the program that does that.
<Wolvie> what about a song or a poem? Should they be centered or all lines indented?
<labloch> um...hello?
<Robert> Nah, domynoe, I have a sword.
<Crista> But i did that on every page. Like, Rucker/Story/2
<@SLVIehl> Domynoe, when it comes to grammar, spelling, and punctuation, my editors think I am the AntiChrist. <g>
<labloch> (sorry, chat froze)
<Lucas> Word97 (the program I've been using lately) has an option for turning curly ("smart") quotes on and off.
<@SLVIehl> Wolvie (hi!) I center songs and poetry in the body of my manuscripts, to set them apart a little.
<Anne_Marble> I'd rather use "dumb quotes" as they translate to my Palm.
<James> I turn off all Word's automatic formatting because it always ends up doing something odd that I don't intend...
<Lucas> Curly ones default to the other kind when converted to a format that doesn't support them, judging from what I've seen.
<@SLVIehl> Okay, I'm going to run through the rest of this material real fast -- sorry, I didn't realize we'd come up with so many great questions tonight. Silly me.
<domynoe> LOL!
<James> Darn it, we'll just have to have another session
<@SLVIehl> Publisher's guidelines: definitions of some of the terms you'll find within the guidelines--
<@SLVIehl> agented or solicited submission -- means they only accept from agents or by invitation
<@SLVIehl> computer disk submission -- manuscript backed up on a disk instead of printed on paper
<@SLVIehl> partials -- sample chapters, usually one to three
<@SLVIehl> preferred length -- wordcount
<@SLVIehl> make that wordcount limit, I mean
<@SLVIehl> simultaneous submission -- sending the same submission to more than one publisher at the same time.
<@SLVIehl> SASE -- self addressed, stamped envelope.
<@SLVIehl> unagented or unsolicited -- open for submission from anyone
<@SLVIehl> Now, Blair, I've got to clear the board for this next part. Sorry.
<BlairB>
s'okay!
<@SLVIehl> I've just posted a paragraph taken directly from Baen Books submission guidelines
<@SLVIehl> Take a moment to read it.
<@SLVIehl> There are key phrases that you need to interpret anytime you read guidelines. Here are some in this one:
<@SLVIehl> "We publish only" -- don't send them anything but this
<labloch> (crap---sorry about the line I accidentally drew)
<@SLVIehl> "What we have published in the past" -- look at the books on the shelves, see what they publish
<@SLVIehl> "powerful plots" -- your book should have a strong emphasis on plotting, and be well plotted.
<@SLVIehl> "solid scientific" -- meticulous research ad presentation (well, we know they don't want me. lol)
<Lucas> "rigorously coherent" magic. Ouch.
<@SLVIehl> "sine qua non" -- I have no idea what that means. I think it's more to impress the submitter than to give out actual information, as few people speak Latin.
<Robert> Reading between the lines, I see implied a "Don't dummy this down! Our PhD readers will nitpickyour book to death!
<@SLVIehl> "rigorously coherent" -- clear and understandable
<labloch> (without that which---a necessary thing)
<@SLVIehl> "integral to the plot" -- affects the story, is part of the plot
<@SLVIehl> "at least strive for originality" -- I think this is really a snotty way to put this, but seen from another angle, it means the publisher is open to new ideas, new concepts.
<@SLVIehl> Where you can find publisher's guidelines -- best source is the Writer's Market, published annually by Writer's Digest. Has the most comprehensive (and exhaustive) listings of publishers and their guidelines.
<@SLVIehl> www.writersdigest.com also has guidelines available online, though not a quarter of what's in the Market book.
<Robert> Would last year's still be good for a few months if you're strapped for the new Writer's Market?
<@SLVIehl> www.locusmag.com has a links portal which lists web sites for most of the top SF and fantasy publishers out there. You can often find guidelines on these publisher's web sites
<labloch> there's your public library, Robert
<@SLVIehl> Sure, Robert, but you can get them from the library too
<Robert> There's a transportation problem, labloch
<@SLVIehl> labloch and I just mind-melded.
<labloch> lol
<Crista> My small town library doesn't have it. <sigh> Doesn't have much of anything.
<labloch> Robert, side note, but some libraries deliver. See if a local one does.
<@SLVIehl> the market reports board at HollyLisle.com -- I've posted a few things there myself
<Anne_Marble> There's some web sites with market thingies, like Ralan Conley's site. Are these trustworthy? They're updated more quickly than WD.
<Lucas> Unless the library is too podunk to have one more recent than, say, a 98 copy. Bleh. This would be the local place.
<Crista> Mine doesn't have one at all.
<@SLVIehl> www.rwanational.com has a listing in their members section of some fifty romance publishers and guidelines
<labloch> I think HWA does, too. Not sure of SFWA, though.
<@SLVIehl> I'd double check on everything you pull off a non-professional site, Anne, or a site other than the publisher's, I should say
<James> Libraries can often obtain things on interlibrary loan, don't forget - go to the nearest reference desk and tell them what you want, they'll often find a way to get it.
<Lucas> Or maybe a 99. Not sure which, but not a recent one anyway.
<Venus> www.speculations.com has listings and www.ralan.com is v reputable
<@SLVIehl> Now, one more thing, then we'll open this up for general questions -- recent changes in the industry, due to the anthrax mail scares here in the US mean you must check out some facts
<labloch> and (it's said) you can write the pubs and ask for the g/ls.
<@SLVIehl> We talked about this before, but here's what you need to do --
<@SLVIehl> send an e-mail to the publisher before you submit, and request submission guidelines for mailed submissions
<@SLVIehl> I recommend this because many, many publishers are turning down unsolicited queries without opening the envelopes.
<@SLVIehl> I know it isn't always going to be possible, but do try to confirm via e-mail if their submission guidelines have changed.
<@SLVIehl> My publisher, Roc SF/F, will not open unsolicited queries anymore.
<@SLVIehl> My romance publisher, Onyx, will.
<@SLVIehl> They're both housed in the same building, share the same mailroom. It's up to the editor.
<@SLVIehl> QUESTIONS
<domynoe> are the publisher sites generally up to date? i mean, if i go to the publisher's site and print their guidelines, will they be accurate?
<James> Are unsolicited submissions queries as well as full manuscripts (I mean, can you query someone who doesn't accept unsolicited manuscripts)?
<@SLVIehl> There should be a last-updated note on the page, domynoe. If there's not, send a query e-mail about guidelines.
<Wolvie> is it easier to try and find an agent first, or just send unagented manuscripts?
<Crista> So, is emailing before you submit enough to bypass the no unsolicited manuscripts policy. DAW books recently established this policy and I thought it meant I HAVE to get an agent before I submit now... I'm confused.
<@SLVIehl> Depends on the word, James. Harper Collins, for example, will not accept any submissions, no matter what they are. A lot of other publishers will have "no unsolicited manuscripts, query first" in their guidelines, which means the letter is ok, the manuscript isn't.
<James> Ah, thanks for that.
<@SLVIehl> Wolvie, it is always easier to get your work out there with an agent. Also, editors deal regularly with agents. But the trick is getting one if you're unpublished.
<Wolvie> thats what I mean...what do you think I'd have better luck with....finding an agent or a publisher first?
<@SLVIehl> No, Crista, this is just to confirm guidelines, not to get around them. I'm recommending you e-mail before you submit so your submission doesn't end up in the trash. If the publisher says no unsolicited submissions, don't bother e-mailing them.
<Crista> Ah, alright. Thanks.
<@SLVIehl> It's hard to say, Wolvie, why not try to submit to both editors and agents, see what happens?
<domynoe> the sample chapters, do you send 3 consecutive chapters or or do you send, say, chapter 1 and 2 then something later in the book?
<Wolvie> sounds like a plan
<Wolvie> on a personal note, how long did it take you to get published?
<Venus> Is it okay to send simultaneous queries?
<@SLVIehl> Always send consecutive chaptersm domynoe -- never skip around the novel. It's usually the first one, two, or three chapters they want to see.
<@SLVIehl> Nine years and over 1300 rejection letters, Wolvie. I'm stubborn.
<Lucas> This isn't the kind of quesiton you meant but... Sheila - I can't right click to bring up a cut/paste menu here, but I can use the keyboard shortcuts. Have you tried (assuming you have Windows) using the "Ctrl V" keys to paste text into the "talk" box in this chat room?
<BlairB> well, persistant anyway...
<@SLVIehl> Venus, only send simultaneous submissions to publishers who accept them. Whenever I made up a list of publishers to submit to, I always did the ones who accept simultaneous first. That way I could mail out more.
<domynoe> (had to ask that, katherine kurtz said she was told to send chapters 1 and 2 then another one later in the book..of course, this was about 35-40 years ago..lol)
<Lucas> I think chapters from various parts in the book is what is usually done with non-fiction.
<@SLVIehl> Doesn't work for me at all, the cutnpasting. Sorry.
<Venus> sheila> So one query letter at a time?
<@SLVIehl> If you're doing simultaneous, you can send the same query letter to ten publishers at the same time -- as long as they accept simultaneous submissions, Venus
<domynoe> kurtz isn't non-fiction, she's historical fantasy...helped found the mass market fantasy genre in the u.s.
<Venus> thanks--was never sure about the dif between ms and query subs
<Wolvie> whats the average advance on a first novel?
<BlairB> if you send a mss to an editor and to an agent... is that still considered a simultaneous submission?
<@SLVIehl> $3,000 to $5,000 U.S. dollars, depending on the genre
<Lucas> Cutting to the heart eh, Wolvie?
<Wolvie> ok, that sucks
<Crista> I was curious about the, too, Wolvie.
<@SLVIehl> No, Blair, because the agent isn't a publisher.
<BlairB> cool
<Robert> So in an agent search I could make up a list of every agent that handles my type of SFF and do a blanket query.
<Anne_Marble> Just avoid the ones that charge fees!
<labloch> lol...carrot cake
<@SLVIehl> Exactly, Robert
<Wolvie> ok, thats sounds more like it....
<Robert> Sounds like the agent search with a really good query and proposal might produce faster results.
<@SLVIehl> You have to prove yourself, Wolvie. If your numbers are good, your advance rates will go up.
<domynoe> i think finding agents is a whole different topic. lol...BUT if you're published, what's the benefit of an agent (especially after you hear of the occasional bad guy who runs off with all your money!)
<Wolvie> thats all I neede to hear
grin
<@SLVIehl> well, the benefit for me of having an agent is that I don't have to negotiate my own contracts, and I don't have to go to NY
<Wolvie> do you usually get those three books done in one year?
<@SLVIehl> She also acts as a buffer -- if I want something, I send her to go get it from my publisher. I remain the wonderful writer, and she's the mercenary bitch.
<domynoe> ROTFL! i can see that being a benefit,,,especially since i am just trying to figure out how to go to my grad school for the en-day residencies. i hate being poor :P
<@SLVIehl> This year I wrote seven books, Wolvie. Next year I'm writing eight.
<Wolvie> ok, thats a pretty good record.....
<@SLVIehl> I've sold fifteen novels in 20 months.
<Lucas> If having an agent keeps a person from needing to go to New York, that's reason enough right there. Big cities. Gah.
<Wolvie> wow, how do you manage that schedule?
<@SLVIehl> I have NO LIFE. Ha
<domynoe> i never could do that. too much of a perfectionist. OTHER people have to tell me when something is done or i'd keep tinkering with it
<Crista> She's magic, Wolvie. <g>
<labloch> whoa! more for romance? how much more are we talking? <g>
<Wolvie> ah, but you do what you love....that sounds like a pretty good life to me
<BlairB> its all those tentacles.....
<@SLVIehl> No, seriously, I always said if I ever got my shot at being published, I would do some serious work to establish myself.
<Anne_Marble> Yeek, some guy jumped off a plane at BWI airport. (While it was on the ground, not while it was flying!)
<labloch> (jaw dropping)
<BlairB> is that the norm?
<domynoe> which reminds me...need to read these posting rules for the fm board....i want opinions of this story before i take the big plunge with it...and 99.9% of the people at del rey annoy me....they don't help make it better, they want to rewrite my stuff
<@SLVIehl> Hey, why do you think I'm writing romance? There's MONEY in it!
<Venus> I guess I don't have to worry about going to NY <G>
<domynoe> or totally trash it
:(
<Lucas> <sound of mind boggling> I guess there are a lot more romance readers than Sci-Fi readers.
<Wolvie> why is that? More romance readers out there?\
<Crista> Do you enjoy writing romance or SF better? Or do you like both the same?
<labloch> yeah, like 60% of the reading public...women...and lots of them like reading romance.
<Lucas> Which is why we're taking your advice.
<Robert> Do you know anything about the pay scale for thrillers?
<@SLVIehl> I would write dog food commercials and enjoy it. I just like to write. I have a soft spot for romance, but I really have no preference.
<@SLVIehl> Robert, I'm just getting into the mystery genre now, so although I can't answer now I probably can in the near future.
<domynoe> OH! shiela! what do you recommend as a method for word counts? i know ms word messes up because it doesn't count white space...not sure about rough draft though
<Wolvie> I'm hoping Harry Potter is gonna get people interested in reading younger audience books again...thats what my first novel is
<Anne_Marble> He jumped from the plane onto the tarmac while characters were boarding. (Wasn't tarmac a Robert E. Howard character?)
<@SLVIehl> You should average about 250 words a page, domynoe. Then multiply by number of pages. This average wordcount per page raises or drops, depending on pt. and font.
<James> Ah, will your mysteries be appearing under S.L. Viehl, or a pseudonym (i.e. how will we recognize them when we see them)?
<@SLVIehl> I'm probably going to write mysteries as Lyn Kelly.
<@SLVIehl> Will keep you posted.
<James> Excellent: I'll keep one eye open for them.
<labloch> (ah, yes. Mercenary me...) ;p
<Anne_Marble> I'm wondering if I can write as both "Anne Marble" and "Enna Elbram." ;->
<Robert> I was wondering about the advance sizes and how authors made a living on only $3-5 thousand a book.
<BlairB> write lots of books
<domynoe> oh, wow...page 2 was 259...what about partial pages?
<Robert> That was my strategy, Blair. <G>
<Sarah> That doesn't work for me, Anne. Sarah spelled backwards is Haras. <g>
<@SLVIehl> It evens out, domynoe -- I wouldn't worry about the partial pages.
<James> My strategy is to write slowly in fits and starts and submit nothing. I'm certain it's going to pay off any day now...
<Crista> LOL! You stole my strategy, James!
<domynoe> well...sheesh...250 words per page is easier to figure than some of the other complicated methods i've seen for word counts
<@SLVIehl> I'm going to brow beat James until he submits something, so he's doomed to fail at his strategy.
<Lucas> Do these classes always finish by talking about $$$? <G>
<Robert> That sounds pretty easy for me too, once it's formatted.
<Anne_Marble> Hee hee
<@SLVIehl> That's what I always used in the days before wordcount and computers, domynoe
<James> I think Crista and I both realize that if our strategy fails it's because of editorial incompetence and because bestselling authors won't sell us the secret handshake
<@SLVIehl> No, we usually don't talk money, Lucas.
<Anne_Marble> They usually try to steal my food.
<Robert> But it's cheering me up a whole lot that we are!
<Wolvie> why did you start to write Shiela?
<James> Truth, Sheila, you, Holly, the rest of the Forward Motion site have done a lot in that direction already.
<@SLVIehl> We all want to go over and raid Anne's house for her bread
<Crista> Why do you think I come to these classes? <g> sSheila is bound to let it slip SOMETIME.
<Lucas> Ok, just wondered. Hah. I thought it might be the result the hours easing along toward tomorrow.
<Anne_Marble> And wait for me to slide off my chair.
<@SLVIehl> I started in 1974, when I wrote my first novel. I just finished writing my 38th.
<domynoe> i've heard...average 3 lines, someone actually suggests using a RULER (i don't remember who), and everyone says don't let word do it. lol
<@SLVIehl> Yes, if you hear a thump, Anne's wearing her silky jammies.
<Robert> Word is consistent with itself and fast enough to use when posting counts in chat. I try to approximate length limits anyway.
<Wolvie> I actually asked why, not when...
<James> Silk - so surely it's hiss, thump we'll hear...
<@SLVIehl> Actually, I should say I would appreciate it if my earnings are kept confidential. It's not something you're
supposed to talk about.
<Lucas> Insanity Wolvie, why else?
<Lucas> No problem.
<labloch> No prob, sheila. Thanks for sharing!
<Wolvie> lips are zipped
<@SLVIehl> I don't see why we have to maintain the big mystery but . . . go figure.
<Sarah> Just remember to edit it out of the transcript. <g>
<domynoe> i am going to be so old if/when i get published. everyone says it takes years... blea
<@SLVIehl> Good point, Sarah
<Robert> You've given me hope beyond my present next level - I'd only need to move two books a year to break into the Food Stamps bracket as is at start, but there's real hope now of more later.
<labloch> maybe it's to keep writers underpaid? <g>
<James> No, put in a ridiculous inflated figure, just for fun -- 12,000,000 dollar three book contract, sort of thing
<Wolvie> I'm giving myself until I'm 40 to be making a living off my writing...thats 6.5 years
<@SLVIehl> there's a lot of nonsense being used to control writers, like keeping advances quiet and such. I don't agree with it
<Robert> I'm giving myself till I'm dead and if there are real vampires that won't stop me.
<@SLVIehl> but I'm also in the position of having to go along with this stuff until I get enough clout to scare everyone
<@SLVIehl> I broke in to pro writing at 38 years old, Wolvie. It can be done.
<labloch> Are people allowed to talk about advances and stuff at, say, conferences? Or do the editors give the evil eye?
<Crista> I'm giving myself until 30. After that, I'll give myself until 40. then 50. Then 80. Then 500. I'm going to live forever.<g>
<Robert> Good! I'm glad a friend will still be around!
<Wolvie> Crista - your books will, at least
<@SLVIehl> I haven't signed a confidentiality clause, but some authors do. Also, if your editor gets wind of you talking about your advances, you generally get politely yelled at.
<@SLVIehl> Good strategy, Crista
<Wolvie> I don't get that...
<labloch> aw, man. Wonder if Nora Roberts has to put up with that crap
<James> My feeling is it's one of those things you'll either find out for yourself when your drive to write gets you published, or you don't really, really have a need to know. (Though I totally don't blame people for asking.)
<@SLVIehl> Nora Roberts doesn't have to put with anything, bless her.
<domynoe> lol..i probably won't manage it before the age of 40...but i'm almost already there so that's not saying anything. lol
<@SLVIehl> any last questions on submitting or guidelines before we wrap this up for the night?
<Wolvie> ok, anything else that you can tell us - inside stuff - that will help with the submissions?\
<Robert> I'm shooting for Pro in 2002 and feel as if I'm arming to approach the Siegfried Line...
<Crista> I have about 9 years until 30. At my pace, this novel will be done by then. <g>
<labloch> nope...thank you so much for giving us your time and letting us pick your brain!
<Robert> Thank you so much, Shiela. That inside view
is the secret handshake, how I see it.
<James> Nary a question, at this moment. And again, great big hairy thanks for another great class!
<Anne_Marble> Can' tink of anyting
<Anne_Marble> I got my Nora Roberts fridge magnet for 2002 today.
<Venus> no...but thank you sheila
<Crista> I have no questions. Thanks, Sheila. I'll trick you into giving me the secret password someday. Mwhahaha. <snickers>
<@SLVIehl> Insider stuff on submissions, nope, I think I've covered all the tricks up my sleeves. The best thing you can do is be professional, and send in a professional submission. That speaks of you asa writer like nothing else.
<Crista> Seriously, though. Thanks.
<domynoe> thanks shiela.
<Wolvie> cool...thanx a lot Shiela....a fun night
<Robert> Ah, last question, should I thank an editor for a critique?
<@SLVIehl> And thanks to all of you for letting me spend another Friday night talking shop! I love it.
<Lucas> I think we're approaching a wrap. Sheila, thanks for taking the time to do this. I have a hard time attending things like this in person, so this is great to be able to do online.
<domynoe> i have to find a fantasy mag for my story, but other than that it's just getting up the guts to actually..well...mail it :P
<@SLVIehl> I think it's a nice thing to do, Robert, if the editor has gone to the trouble.
<Robert> Like on a second sub, "Dear Editor X, here's my new story Y, thanks to your critique of story Q I have worked on improving my pacing...
<@SLVIehl> We're usually here every Friday night, talking about something <g>
<@SLVIehl> Yeah, that's terrific, Robert -- use the thank you to submit again!
<labloch> lol...good idea
<Robert> My attack plan is to pick the pro markets more likely to want my stuff in general and keep something of mine on theri desks at all times till they buy one.
<@SLVIehl> And if you do have any other questions, you can e-mail me at SLViehlworkshop@aol.com. That's just for you guys, and since I'm taking off the month of December, I'll be able to respond virtually right away.
<Robert> Thanks!
<labloch> thanks again Shiela!
<Sarah> (Woo-hoo! For those of you following the saga of the beast, just made someone cry...twice!) Thanks Sheila!
<Wolvie> cool, thanx a lot
<Anne_Marble> Thanks (Yippy! Yahhoo! Etc.!)
<domynoe> WOW! thanks!
<James> Dangerous offer - I've got December off from my wretched day job. I might e-mail you constantly...
<Robert> I don't think it's just luck you got that success, Sheila. I think it's grit and strategy and skill.
<@SLVIehl> I'm counting on it, James, how else can I find an excuse to brow beat you?
<domynoe> ummmmm..to press my luck here..lol...would you be willing to look at a short story mms and let us know if we have a chance in hell?
giggle
<James> Sheila. Not sure what to have for lunch. Advise immediately, kind of thing.
<Crista> What if we have questions on past transcripts that out stupid jobs didn't let us have the day off to attend?
<@SLVIehl> it also helps to be a coldblooded mercenary witch, Robert.
<Crista> With tentacles. Don't forget that, Sheila. <g>
<@SLVIehl> E-mail me about those, too Crista -- this is a writer's think tank. There are no time limits or restrictions.
<Crista> Cool. Thanks.
<Robert> Cool! <freezes in bad weather, check, needs money, check, pagan, check, great!>
<@SLVIehl> And if you want to know how to grow tentacles . . . I'm your girl. Ha.
<@SLVIehl> So everyone is going to submit, submit, submit, and remember when you win that award my name is pronounced "Veel"
<James> Is it true you just put a tentacle cutting in a glass of water and wait for it to root?
<Robert> Sheila when I am big enough to mate and collaborate can we do a romance between nonhumanoid tentacled beings as a collaboration?
<Lucas> Tentacles? Wow, does that help, or hinder typing speed?
<@SLVIehl> You never know, Robert.
<@SLVIehl> Makes dating interesting, Lucas.
<labloch> yes, sir!
(or the big-time contract we get interviewed for..)
<Anne_Marble> Wow, you thought Dvorak was hard to learn.
<Lucas> Ho-ho!
<Robert> <twines his cat ecstatically dreaming of success!>
<James> He brushed her auricular opening with the tip of his tentacle. "Cthulhu," she cried, "possess me..."
<Anne_Marble> I knew someone who used to date octopi, but...
<@SLVIehl> I'm going to brow beat James directly here in a minute . . .
<Sarah> roflmao!!!
<Crista> LOL!
<@SLVIehl> God, I love you guys. You crack me up.
<domynoe> woaw...ms word came up with about 2200 words LESS on the word count for this story than rough draft did. does that mean rough draft is coutning spaces?
<James> I see it as the opening line of the query letter
<Lucas> Dear editor of Dark Forces publishing....
<James> Or, "What if two ancient, tentacled gods from the dark times found romance in a ruined city on the edge of a bottomless abysss?"
<Anne_Marble> BTW I think I'm gonna like the new Katherine Sutcliffe. Some people on AAR's message boards were complaining because the heroine wasn't perfect.
<@SLVIehl> Does anyone have MS Word to answer domynoe's question? (I don't, sorry)
<Robert> Trouble is three writers under one roof trying to complete entire novels in one month. Then the Lake of the Drowned Souls begins to take its toll..
<Anne_Marble> I've seen Word come up with more than one word count on the same document!
<@SLVIehl> You won't be able to get by me with any more protestations of writer's block, James. You're wicked.
<Lucas> I've found that MS word (or the 97 one at least) gives a different word count depending on if you right click on the file and go to properties --> statistics, or if you use the word count menu item.
<James> I have Word 2000, but it's a bit of a black box to me, no idea how it works...
<domynoe> what do you use shiela? i picked up rough draft because it's supposed to be specifically for writers and it's free
<Lucas> That's just strange. I don't know why it does that.
<@SLVIehl> Don't laugh, but I use word perfect 5.1
<domynoe> but i have been using ms word so long i forget about rough draft
<James> It's peculiar, Sheila, I'm never blocked for silliness. Only when I write as if I mean it. Go figure.
<@SLVIehl> I hate clicking on things
<Anne_Marble> The spell check on WP51 is one of the coolest.
<Robert> So write up a comedy and submit it already, wiseguy?
<@SLVIehl> That's why you're going to be the next Terry Pratchett, Mr. Milton
<James> Hadn't thought of doing comedy - I'm suprisingly grim in real life...
<@SLVIehl> Robert and I are mind-melding now
<Anne_Marble> Good grief, since I've been in this class, I've gotten 14 new e-mails.
<labloch> lol...you guys rock. Gotta run, though---happy writing, all, and thanks again Shiela!
<@SLVIehl> We're keeping Anne from her pals -- I should call this a night, I guess.
<Lucas> Clicking is carried to extremes for sure. I think a well designed program should give you the option of doing EVERYTHING by keyboard.
<@SLVIehl> Thanks, Labloch, see you at the site
<James> Yes, we should run, though it's been a hoot.
<Anne_Marble> Only 14? Slow night.
<labloch> jah.
<Anne_Marble> They encourage keyboarding at my company, so we don't hurt our widdle wrists.
<James> Goodnight all -- see you around the site, or next week!
<@SLVIehl> Good night all. Take care and thanks again for another terrific session