Professional Writing Workshops at HollyLisle.com
12/07/01 -- Plotting the Novel Series (Continuation)
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get the ball rolling. Welcome to Plotting the Series Novel, I'm your host, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLViehl> During our last session, we discussed several types of series, how to determine what length series to write, and the different aspects
involved in writing triolgies, mid-length, extended, and open series.
<@SLViehl> We also did a breakdown on plotting a trilogy.
<@SLViehl> All of this is available on the Transcript Board, if you want to
have a look later
<@SLViehl> Tonight we're going to pick up where we left off and talk about plotting the mid-length series
<@SLViehl> I'll present the material, then throw up QUESTIONS, and that's when to hit me with them (Hi Jenny!)
<@SLViehl> Everyone ready?
<Robert> Purr
<Gayle> yes
<Blair> yuppers
<Kaelle> gtg
<Anne_Marble> Okee
<Jenny> Hi everyone. Yep, ready.
<James> Hi all - sorry I'm late!
<@SLViehl> James, we were about to send a posse out for you
<Lucas> Ready to recieve.
<Anne_Marble> We'll take that as a "Yes," James.
<James> I thought I heard horses
<@SLViehl> Here we go -- during our last session, I told you I consider a mid-length series to be from 5 to 7 books.
<@SLViehl> Basically, a mid-length series is simply an expanded version of the trilogy
<@SLViehl> You still have a beginning, a middle, and an end
<@SLViehl> What's nice is you have more room to explore those three parts of your main conflict, because you have transition books between
<@SLViehl> Robert brought up something interesting -- I go with odd numbers for series, because I like that "middle" or "Center" book
<@SLViehl> but tonight we're going to get radical and break it down into six books
<@SLViehl> radical for me, anyway
<@SLViehl> We'll start with book one and two of the six-book series
<@SLViehl> As with a trilogy, book one establishes the main conflict, as well as presents an inclusive conflict to render the novel standalone
<@SLViehl> Remember each book must be a standalone as well as part of a series. Editors do not buy them otherwise
<@SLViehl> However, since you've got more room to explore your main conflict, you're going to treat it a little differently in book one.
<@SLViehl> You want to establish the main conflict, but you're going more for an introduction than an explanation.
<@SLViehl> In the six book series, you've got at least one more book to nail down all the justification and information on your main conflict.
<@SLViehl> The best analogy I can make is that book one of a trilogy is a blind date, while book one of a mid-length series is meeting someone at a party.
<@SLViehl> You don't want to show the reader all your cars. You have five more books to write.
<@SLViehl> Also, you're going to be facing a longer extension of the story, so you may want consider running more open story plot threads.
<@SLViehl> These are plot twists or conflicts within the main conflict that are not resolved in one novel.
<@SLViehl> My comfort level is still between three to five good, solid, strong running plot threads. Just because you're writing more books doesn't mean
you need to double or triple the number of threads you carry.
<@SLViehl> What changes now is you can resolve and then introduce plot threads with more frequency, and in more places in the series.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Anne_Marble> You may have discussed this before, but how do you make the books self-contained without having characters stand around thinking about
the time Grignr defeated Trellic in battle last year, zzz?
<@SLViehl> As in, how do you deal with backstory?
<Anne_Marble> Yup -- how do you avoid getting all Goodkind-y in the backstory.
<@SLViehl> There are a couple of ways -- with each book, you will unite new characters with characters from previous books. This is an opportunity to
work in backstory.
<@SLViehl> Depending on your POV, you can present backstory as reflection -- but not too much -- triggered by events in the present novel.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, kind of like the Fugitive meeting new people in each episode and saying "The one-armed man did it."
<@SLViehl> i.e.: "As I watched the ship explode, I thought of all the ships we had blown up last year."
<Robert> Would it work as a series structure to treat the setting as the identity of the overall series conflict - like two countries or several -
and the characters are generations on the land ?
<Robert> I'm reading Michener's "Poland" and getting inspired to do something where setting and families are the focus.
<@SLViehl> I've tried to get a little more creative with backstory intro into later novels. I had Cherijo start a diary for her baby. Then in another book, she blows her top and yells a list of what she's been through at another character.
<@SLViehl> Sure Robert. Setting is the foundation for a lot of series -- like Dune, for example. Great setting. Totally filled with conflict.
<James> When you talk about 3-5 open running threads, should you also have a couple of subplots that are closed off within each novel (other than the
main sub-conflict which makes the book self contained)?
<@SLViehl> Absolutely, James. Those subplots are what flesh out your inclusive conflict. They must be resolved within the book in order for your
inclusive conflict to work.
<James> Is it enough to only have one or two?
<@SLViehl> The open running threads in a mid-length series should relate directly to the main conflict. You can tie them in with the standalone, but
they should provide the main momentum for the series
<@SLViehl> If they're very strong and not easily reconciled or resolved, James, I think that would work.
<James> Gotcha, thanks
<@SLViehl> Let's move on to Book Two
<Lucas> Is there a way to think about the mini-plot threads that helps you to figure out of if a given mini-thread will just be distracting?
<@SLViehl> Good question, Lucas. I look at plot threads the same way I do with conflicts that I worry about in my life.
<@SLViehl> Is it something that's going to change what I do, where I do it, and cost me? Those are the kinds of threads you want to pose the same difficulties for your characters.
<@SLViehl> If your characters are caught up in something minor, annoying, not important to the story line, what I call "busy work" then it becomes a
distraction for the reader, who doesn't care about that kind of thing.
<@SLViehl> Figure if your plot thread invokes a strong emotional reaction from your character, then you're on the right track.
<@SLViehl> Now, on to book two.
<Lucas> Ok. Onward.
<@SLViehl> Book two provides a transition space from your beginning novel into the meat and potatoes of the mid-length series.
<@SLViehl> First, beware of writing "locomotion" novels in this stage of the game.
<@SLViehl> You don't want to provide merely a vehicle novel that moves your characters around and sets up the middle or center novel.
<@SLViehl> The center of the series is where you main conflict really changes or peaks or becomes dire
<@SLViehl> So you have to find something that will allow you to lead into that, while remaining a standalone, on its own, with its own inclusive
conflict.
<@SLViehl> I know I keep harping on this but it's important -- each book must be valuable to the series, but valuable on its own too
<@SLViehl> One method of creating a viable second book in this series is to explore or focus on one aspect of the main conflict and encapsulate in an adventure which can be resolved by the end of the book.
<@SLViehl> This adventure episode in the lives of your characters must still progress the main conflict, too.
<@SLViehl> Let's say your protagonist becomes a fugitive in book one. The series is about him, the law, and the one-armed man.
<@SLViehl> book two can present the first taste of life as a fugitive for your protagonist -- present a problem in a specific scenario, and have the
protagonist solve it.
<@SLViehl> While still being on the run, and maybe making matters worse by getting involved in this book two problem
<@SLViehl> This is a good place to begin a new thread -- repercussions from book two.
<@SLViehl> You can also tie off one of the threads from book one to give the reader some satisfaction. This early in the series, I'd recommend starting
another thread if you terminate one.
<@SLViehl> All of the above must have some impact on the main conflict.
<@SLViehl> Fugitive goes on the lam in book one, saves children from burning building that belongs to one-armed man in book two
<@SLViehl> Book three, we find out the one-armed man frames our fugitive for torching the building
<@SLViehl> Book two provides fuel for the series fire.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Lucas> So part of what we're trying to do is write each individual book so that the characters conquer their momentery problems, but the overall
problem gets worse? Possibly as a direct result of how they dealt with the single-book difficulty?
<Robert> This is so inspirational it's scary - you just made my Exercises make sense.
<@SLViehl> Exactly, Lucas. The overall problem doesn't always have to get worse, per say, but the inclusive conflict should have an impact on it.
Escalate it. Create tension, momentum, reasons for the reader to keep reading your series
<Robert> Like for Ziriavan, economics is the One Armed Man and book one Rillan becomes a Guild mage, book two this trader from the North becomes a successful caravener, book 3 a priest becomes an abbot to restore the cathedral, book 4 someone notices there's no aristocracy and becomes a warlord, book 5 price of power this warlord becomes an Emperor.
<@SLViehl> Robert's already seething with plots.
<Robert> Seething with the one that's giving me a headache and if setting is the series plot it's rise and fall of an Empire.
<Anne_Marble> Ari is whispering them to him.
<Lucas> Bubble bubble toil and trouble and hardship and pain and interesting conflict and....
<@SLViehl> The rise and fall of any empire is excellent fuel for a series.
<@SLViehl> It's still beginning, middle, and end.
<Robert> But mages live a long time so Rillan's around changing factions and sides to the end price of civilization seeing the changes from teh fishing
village he grew up in as an old man, becomes a historian, sees the decline as well as the rise.
<Anne_Marble> That's it, a story about the nail from that old "Because of the want of a nail" story!
<@SLViehl> If anyone ever read "I, Claudius" by Robert Graves, that's a terrific rise-and-fall novel on empires.
<Robert> With Rillan back to being an MC in last book as he makes a critical decision that affects whether Empire continues, changes or dies.
<@SLViehl> And the unique perspective of the protagonist keeps everything fresh for the reader.
<Robert> I loved I, Claudius
<Lucas> Anne - Maybe someone probably stole the nail on purpose.
<Anne_Marble> Book one, nail rebels, horseshoe falls off. Book two, horse
goes lame. Book three, messenger has to walk all the way. (Very boring series. <g>)
<@SLViehl> Anne's nail story is more the snowball-effect plot line.
<@SLViehl> Must be very thin books. lol
<Anne_Marble> Lucas> Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
<Robert> Anne - the nail is a person who got drafted. Think about it.
<BJ Steeves> Always did like omelets
<@SLViehl> Hookay, let's move on to books three and four
<Lucas> Let's go. Datapads set to stun, move out.
<@SLViehl> This is the center of your six book series. It's sort of a two-book center
<@SLViehl> This is the time when your main conflict escalates or progresses from what you've established in book one, and messed with in book two.
<@SLViehl> Think of your center books as plot amplifiers
<@SLViehl> Things are going to get very, very bad now.
<@SLViehl> Your final two books will begin the resolution of the main conflict, so your major peak time is now.
<@SLViehl> Since this is an even-numbered series, book three should begin the amplification process.
<@SLViehl> Again, set up your book to be a standalone -- with its own story, resolved within the novel -- but craft this inclusive conflict to have serious impact on your main conflict.
<@SLViehl> Make things really get ugly for your protagonist.
<@SLViehl> A sense of utter futility, failure, the bad guys are going to win -- all good things to throw at the reader here.
<@SLViehl> book four should finish the amplification process
<@SLViehl> "Ho, Boy, are we in trouble now, what'll we do?"
<@SLViehl> Book four sets up your resolution. Absolutely must, in some way, propel the reader along to the inevitable final conflict crisis ahead.
<@SLViehl> There is a real problem with writing center books.
<@SLViehl> It's like writing the middle of a novel.
<@SLViehl> You've got a wonderful beginning, a powerful end, but how do you get from point A -- B?
<@SLViehl> There is a danger in writing housekeeping novels -- suspending everything with a lot of busy work writing.
<@SLViehl> Consider introducing as part of the inclusive conflicts in these two books, some kind of drastic measures or dire straits that can be wrapped
up and resolved, that do NOT relate to the main conflict directly, but come about as a product of it.
<@SLViehl> One armed frames our hero as an arsonist AND a murderer. Book three: Our hero captures the one-armed man.
<@SLViehl> Book four, our hero is nearly killed by the one-armed man.
<@SLViehl> Very dramatic. Very exciting. Not a lot to do with the main conflict -- being a fugitive, on the run from the law, but it does have impact
<@SLViehl> now the one-armed man will not stop until our hero is dust.
<@SLViehl> Death and destruction are one avenue. Birth and creation are another
<@SLViehl> Throw problems at your protagonist that are both interesting and solvable. Generate excitement for what's happening RIGHT NOW in the story.
<@SLViehl> And on running threads -- because this is a midlength, you're going to be carrying anywhere from three to five (or more) from the beginning of the series. If you didn't wrap up some of them in book two, you need to tie off a couple in book three or four.
<@SLViehl> You can create new ones to carry through to the end of the series here.
<@SLViehl> In fact, you should, or you're going to narrow the plot field for your protagonist.
<@SLViehl> So give our hero an orphaned little boy to look out for
<@SLViehl> who just so happens to be the only witness to the murder (but our hero doesn't know that yet)
<@SLViehl> The main reason you need to solve some of your plots threads is the reader doesn't want to wait for everything, and if you wait, you'll end
up writing book six as nothing but plot thread resolutions.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<James> Is it in book three/four that you'd consider going for cliffhanger endings?
<Robert> Can changing POV character accomplish that mid book shift - the future abbot REALLY wants his cathedral and gets it but that sets up for
warlord?
<@SLViehl> As long as they're not part of the inclusive conflict, James, and are not too overt. I get away with a lot, I know, but most editors don't
like cliff hangers.
<James> Ah, gotcha.
<Lucas> So in book four of a six part series you would introduce the inevitable ending, but somehow disguise it so that no one knows they've seen
the foundation laid for the eventual victory of the protagonist? (Assuming the protagonist is going to win, that is...) Otherwise, it seems like there
would be too much hope for the eventual resolution of the main conflict.
<Anne_Marble> Nor do readers!
Some of them have stopped buying Janet Evanovich because of cliffhanger endings -- even though those endings were
about the ongoing relationships and not the mystery plot.
<@SLViehl> Sure Robert -- as long as your shifts in POV flow evenly. You can't have five books in the hero's POV and one in the Villain's. Needs to
even out.
<Anne_Marble> You could always do like Eddings did. Put out the series and years later, put out one book each from the POV of two of the
other main
characters.
<@SLViehl> The danger, Lucas, is in how much you tell the reader. You want to lure them with the promise of a big bang ending to the series, but if you
give them too much information, they'll figure out your twists and direction and not have the pleasure of being surprised.
<@SLViehl> You can't keep handing the reader the same problem with the same cliffhanger ending, I think that's Janet's main problem. She's not stretching her wings.
<James> I know it wasn't originally written as a series, but the cliffhanger in Lord of the Rings part two -- Frodo was alive but taken by the enemy --
is darn near my favourite bit. I wailed when I read it, but I loved it.
<@SLViehl> Cliff hangers make people alternately love and hate you. I speak from experience.
<@SLViehl> Shall we take a five minute break to refuel?
<Jenny> Sounds good to me.
<Kaelle> ok, brb
<@SLViehl> Anne, give me some of that ice cream! <g>
<James> Ah, cold drink time -- it's so hot and muggy here that I'm dehydrating between breaths!
<Lucas> Piers Anthony seemed to do nothing but cliffhangers with his Mode books.
<Blair> <phew> its that time.... wow.
<Anne_Marble> OK, I can read my horrid poem at poetry.com. (I know it's a scam; I entered a bad poem to win some Blink points!)
<@SLViehl> brb
<Robert> Changing transcript files.
<Anne_Marble> Here is the URL to my sucky poem:
http://www.poetry.com/Publications/display.asp?ID=P3941058&BN=999&PN=1
<Blair> <throws snowball at James>
<James> Now Blair, that's just cruel
<Blair> I can't think of a better way to combat hot and muggy...
<@SLViehl> Anne, you're incorrigible
<James> On the other hand, if I catch the snowball I can put it in my drink. Slushy!
<@SLViehl> Boys, no fighting
<@SLViehl> God, I'm starting to sound like my mother.
<@SLViehl> Ack
<Blair> <points at Robert> He did it!
<Robert> <snarl, hiss, turns into Siamese Tiger revealing Ari was doing the typing all along>
<@SLViehl> Ari, tell Robert to behave
<James> I was just about to blame Ari -- it's always the cat...
<Kaelle> Cats can do amazing things...
<Lucas> Yeah sure, the old cat got into the 'nip and logged onto the
computer when you weren't looking excuse.
<@SLViehl> Rush went to the vet today and got a shot in the butt, and informed me when we got home that he will HATE ME FOREVER
<Robert> Poor Rush! I can sympathize completely, poor Rush! Mew!
<BJ Steeves> Give him some Tiger Shrimp!
<Anne_Marble> <Rereading my sucky poem> That wasn't bad for something I wrote in five minutes.
<Robert> Purr. BJ is nice. Purr purr
<@SLViehl> We ought to have a bad first lines contest someday
<Kaelle> hmmm
<BJ Steeves> That would go good with the rest of my writing.
<Robert> It was a dark and stormy knight that strode, not rode into the city
gates wearing only a tin pail held over his crotch.
<Anne_Marble> Ooooh
<Kaelle> lol
<@SLViehl> Ouch
<Lucas> Jinx, did you get dropped?
<James> Is that wise with lightning about?
<Robert> Don't get Ari hooked on Tiger Shrimp. I won't let him read Cats in Cyberspace till he learns HTML.
<@SLViehl> Imagine if it was cold
<Jinx> <mutters> I always miss the good stuff when I get bumped from the conference room. <g>
<@SLViehl> It wouldn't be Friday if poor Jinx didn't get bumped off
<Jinx> Yes, Lucas. Wouldn't be a proper class if I didn't get dropped at least once.
<Kaelle> Haven't seen Gayle in a while
<Lucas> Maybe you should stay logged in twice. Then only one of you would
get knocked out?
<@SLViehl> Gayle had to leave
<@SLViehl> she's going to catch up with the transcript
<Kaelle> oh
<Robert> Hi Gayle, we missed you! Come back next Friday!
<@SLViehl> One more announcement, I may be a few minutes late for next Friday's session, my kids are in their Christmas play at school.
<Jinx> That's a thought. Although I'd probably crash, just for spite.
<Kaelle> Gonna video it?
<James> No worries -- we can entertain ourselves until you get here. We could hold the terrible first lines competition eliminators
<Jinx> Anne can bring snacks.
<Robert> Cool. <G>
<Anne_Marble> Got spam from a place called PearlSoup.com. Or from one of their affiliates. They want writers!!! Translation: Write a thingie and post
it and you can earn points or something.
<@SLViehl> Actually, I might ask James to run things until I can get here.
<@SLViehl> hint, hint James
<James> Good heavens. May I use a whip? May I apply discipline?
<Blair> <EG> yea, let James run it....
<@SLViehl> Um, Blair . . .
<Kaelle> <lobs a spitball at James>
<@SLViehl> Oh, you two are awful
<Jinx> Sheesh, James. The things we learn about people in here. <g>
<Anne_Marble> Yeeek, even more spam .
<@SLViehl> Jinx is writing an expose on the side.
<Jinx> I've certainly got plenty of material!
<@SLViehl> Uncovered: Holligans at HollyLisle.com
<Anne_Marble> Spam for diet juice.
<Lucas> The sordid night life of the friday chatting writers. Hmm, it will nedd a better title.
<James> Look, megalomania is the only fun I get these days...
<@SLViehl> Okay, any last questions on books four and five?
<Jinx> <makes notes>
<Kaelle> Well, as long as you don't use a cat'o'nine tails....Ari will get upset.
<James> Damn, now what am I going to do with the nine cats?
<Robert> Keep the cats in! Purr.
<@SLViehl> I just snorted tea through my nose, James, you wretch
<Jinx> LOL
<BJ Steeves> I could lend you my dog.
<Blair> you could write a book on the ways to sk.... never mind...
<Kaelle> rofmal
<Kaelle> rofmao
<Lucas> I guess we're mainly making sure we don't reveal the eventual ending, and that these books don't turn into "get guy a to point b" books
where no pertinent stuff happens.
<James> Whipping someone with cats would actually do some serious damage -- suprised the Inquisition didn't try it.
<Robert> There's more than one way to scan a cat.
<Kaelle> <groan>
<@SLViehl> Thank you, Lucas, that's everything in a nutshell
<Blair> you need heavy books for that though.... and they still squirm
<@SLViehl> The rest of you -- behave.
<BJ Steeves> That's no fun.
<Kaelle> <looks innocent>
<James> I'm whipping myself even as we speak.
<@SLViehl> Welcome, Damon
<Damon M. Lord> (latecomer enters, hands apple to teacher - sorry I'm late)
<Robert> & ari both put on innocent look wash paws
<Blair> with those 9 cats James?
<@SLViehl> We're ready (if not all willing) to get started on part two of tonight's festivities
<Anne_Marble> Damon, you'll blend right in here.
<James> But of course...
<@SLViehl> thanks for the apple
<@SLViehl> Damon, we've been discussing the mid-length novel series, breaking it down into six books as an example, and figuring on how to run the main conflict and individual books
<@SLViehl> and now we're going to launch into books five and six.
<@SLViehl> Wait, I have a graphic I forgot to put up here
<Damon M. Lord> (I'll sit quiet at the back of class and catch up by reading transcripts)
<@SLViehl> This is one more book than the example I'm using but you get the general idea
<@SLViehl> Books five and six represent the resolution of your series
<@SLViehl> Now you've got a few jobs to perform -- you must tie up all your loose threads, and resolve them.
<@SLViehl> You must provide the final reconciliation or resolution for your main conflict.
<@SLViehl> Books five and six are your series two minute warning.
<@SLViehl> As in a trilogy, these books wrap it up. But again, you're writing more books, so like the establishment of the main conflict in books
one and two, you need to deal with the resolution of the conflict a little differently.
<@SLViehl> You don't want to write two very long extensions of an ending.
<@SLViehl> Book five gives you a unique opportunity -- this is your last chance to alter the condition of the main conflict.
<@SLViehl> It's not the place where you escalate things, but you polish that escalation.
<@SLViehl> Take our fugitive from the one-armed man: He's escaped, he's saved children from a burning building, he's been framed for the arson, he's
picked a little boy, captured the one-armed man, nearly been killed, and is one book away from finding out his fate
<@SLViehl> Remember when I said that little boy could be the only witness to the murder? Book five is where our hero discovers this.
<@SLViehl> Now the one-armed man is not only going to kill our hero, he's going for the kid too.
<@SLViehl> Same stakes, same circumstances, but the pressure just got a little worse.
<@SLViehl> This is what I mean about polishing the escalation.
<@SLViehl> Running threads -- with the exception of those which can only be tied up with the final resolution -- need to come to end, or be prepped for
the end
<@SLViehl> Tie up all your details, your loose ends, because book six is where you're going to do the WOW ending.
<@SLViehl> You don't want anything to detract from that. Reconcile the small stuff in book five.
<@SLViehl> And finally, we're at book six. Took us long enough, didn't it? But now is the time to finish the series.
<@SLViehl> Book five gathers speed for book six. Book six is where everything explodes.
<@SLViehl> You should have at least one very major plot twist to present, close to the end of book six, which directly resolves your main conflict.
<@SLViehl> Meanwhile, again, both book five and book six have to be standalone. They must tell their own story.
<Anne_Marble> "His best friend hired the One-armed Man to kill his wife and frame him." :->
<@SLViehl> Or, his dead wife is the one-armed man.
<@SLViehl> That's how I'd write it.
<James> She was tired of hiding her life as a one armed transvestite?
<Lucas> If you've got a six book series, it seems like book five might be the hardest of all to write and still keep it a viable stand-alone.
<@SLViehl> Not if you use it the way you did book two, Lucas. Make an adventure within the adventure.
<Robert> Rillan finally gets to marry a non magician woman that he loves but she's a rotten political b**ch like Livia out of I Claudius and that makes
him mage-Emperor...
<@SLViehl> On their way back to confront the one-armed man, our hero and the boy are caught up in a gangland war.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS, to make it official
<Lucas> Ok, as you show on your nifty graphic, book two is "have fun" so the next to the last is "have some more fun".
<@SLViehl> Exactly -- have fun = adventure
<James> Should the book six standalone conflict be rooted entirely in the main conflict -- i.e. the one-armed man catches the boy, so the fugitive
must stage the final confrontation or the child dies?
<Lucas> With the same caveat to keep it pertinent and theme based. Good.
<@SLViehl> As long as it doesn't depend too heavily on backstory, James, I think that would work.
<Lucas> (My last post wasn't a response to James, it just happened to come
after his message.)
<Robert> Where would coldhearted princess come in - next to last book or final book as Rillan recognizes what he's wed but is in WAY too deep?
<James> Does that mean the standalone conflict
can have its source outside the main conflict in book six? (Could you, for instance, do the gangland
war story as the sixth book)?
<@SLViehl> I'd put her in the next to last, Robert, give her another book to take out her spleen on him.
<Robert> Right, so seeing next to last as standalone it's the happy ending of his struggle to get that marriage allwoed.
<Lucas> James, I would guess only if its conclusion was the same as the main conflict's solution.
<Lucas> But I'll be glad to wait for a more official answer.
<@SLViehl> Sure, James -- in fact, I think most of your standalone conflict will be circumstantial, relevent to the main conflict but still apart from
it.
<James> You could end the second last book with the discovery of her coldness, Robert.
<James> Thanks, just wasn't sure.
<@SLViehl> Then you've got all your bad guys lined up for book six. Unless the revelation about her coldness leads into the resolving of the main
conflict.
<Robert> I think I'd want to set up for it and reader to notice she's too good to be true and already going behind his back.
<Robert> Though I could show readers she's evil by one small cruel act the duped character's not there for. Like how she treats the maid.
<@SLViehl> The most important thing with book six is to deliver. You've strung this reader along for five books now, and they want bang for their buck.
<James> No, do something dreadful to an animal -- that always reeks of evil. His caged singing bird claws her. The novel ends with him wondering about
the future, and noticing that his lovely singing bird is dead, kind of thing.
<@SLViehl> I think a mid-length series should have a really strong ending to the main conflict, for that reason.
<@SLViehl> I like that, James. Ominous.
<Lucas> James - Would you make her totally sincere in everything, nice and evil? That could be really creepy.
<Robert> That's kind of neat, especially if she dies in a similar way by way of barbarians when she gets her comeuppance, ironic.
<@SLViehl> Poetic justic, yep. Love it when they get what they deserve
<James> I'd go for well-brought up but with a pit of ice cold in her soul that she didn't even know was there, but which makes her do terrible things.
<@SLViehl> and then she embraces her frozen soul
<James> Maybe when cruelty unexpectedly gets her what she wants -- and she thinks it always will?
<@SLViehl> the bird is the symbol
<@SLViehl> she couldn't stand it
<@SLViehl> that kind of thing
<Robert> Bit of a love tragedy poor Rill doesn't begin to know about.
<Lucas> By the time we get to the final book, how much resemblence does the main plot have to how we saw it in the original book? Has it usually changed in more than intensity, or does it just depend on the series?
<James> The bird can also foreshadow what might happen to Rill if he causes her some small offence, some small pain she can't tolerate.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe she acquired the bird for him inadvertently, by being cruel at the marketplace. :-> So he loves the bird because he doesn't know
she was cruel to the shopkeeper to force him to sell the prized bird, and she hates what it represents.
<@SLViehl> I think the reader becomes more invested in the main conflict, Lucas, because you've presented it to them in book one, and then you'll made it personal over the next four books, by ever-increasing degrees.
<Robert> If the bird's the symbol, Rillan's real because he
wanted to be a mage. That princess as a very small girl wanted to do something else, like
be a bard, but she held to royal duty and she's taking it out on those under her.
<@SLViehl> However, your main conflict has to remain semi-stable throughout the series, in order to provide continuous, logical momentum.
<Robert> Ooh anne I like that idea. That's something she hates about Rillan - that he trusts her. She grew up in intrigue and deceit and
mistrust, didn't know anything else.
<James> If that's the case, she's probably quite horrible to bards -- surrounds herself with them, supports them, but gives and withholds support
at a whim, ejects them from her circle, ruins them...
<@SLViehl> Our hero is on the run from the one-armed man. That can't really change much.
<Anne_Marble> But what if he finds out that the one-armed man didn't really do it?
<Blair> that another series
<@SLViehl> That's another lethal twist, Anne -- you've been telling this reader all along the one-armed man was a bad guy. What if it was someone else?
<Robert> Anne, that seems like a nice final twist.
<Damon> I personally would hate that - being strung along all the way through to find out the bad guy is not so bad after all....
<@SLViehl> That happens a lot in movies, too.
<BJ Steeves> Or that he's not a bad guy, but a government agent or privite eye.
<Robert> As long as all the evidence is in place and it's plausible and fair.
<@SLViehl> the one-armed man can still be a bad guy. Just not the guy who murdered the hero's wife.
<Lucas> So we just get closer to things as events progress, and refine understanding. Umm, like Anne suggested - Wouldn't a final twist like that
be kind of cheating?
<@SLViehl> Not if you weave the threads in to always be there.
<Robert> Your thing that the wife is the one-armed man is a twist like that.
<Damon> cheating - sort of painted into a corner, then told the walls and floors are not there, like alice in wonderland - "oh what a dream!" or "oh he's good after all!"
<Anne_Marble> It depends on how it was planted. I've seen movies like "The Usual Suspects" where there were clues and it fell into place. But then you
have duds like "The Nature of the Beast," which even Lance Henrikson couldn't save. :-<
<Lucas> Ok, provide foundation. Build inevitablity for the really bizarre thing you do in the end.
<@SLViehl> I did a twist in my last released SF that no one expected. Strung them along for three books to get to this twist, but the signs were there. I just distracted them with something else.
<James> You could also foreshadow it with theme to lessen the blow -- if, throughout the series, things often weren't what they seemed, a switch of
villains might not seem so bad.
<@SLViehl> You have to be very calculating when you plot. Plot for maximum
effect, but keep it logical.
<Kaelle> And I loved it, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> hee hee
<Anne_Marble> Good suspence movies have clues. "The Nature of the Beast" had an obligatory surprise ending that 1) wasn't surprising and 2) was illogical
despite that.
<Kaelle> I really didn't suspect.
<James> You know, The Usual Suspects is basically Asimov's Second Foundation -- I guessed that movie eight seconds in by crying out, "It's the
Mule!"
<@SLViehl> The Gift had an excellent, if somewhat predictable ending.
<BJ Steeves> Sixth Sense was the best.
<Anne_Marble> Don't forget "The Others."
<@SLViehl> Lord, yes. That movie shook me down to my toenails.
<James> Sixth Sense got me utterly -- but I have a cousin who spotted it because she's a restaurant manager and the anniversary table was set for
one. The strangest things give plot away!
<Anne_Marble> I dressed as the housekeeper for Halloween at work.
<@SLViehl> I'm trying to think of a book -- the Twisted Root, by Anne Perry.
Now that book has a killer twist.
<@SLViehl> So does Breach of Promise, same author.
<@SLViehl> In fact, Breach is better.
<James> I haven't read that one -- if the others don't mind a spoiler, how does she twist it?
<@SLViehl> I'm going to type this directly to James, 'scuse me for a moment
<Anne_Marble> Awww, I want to know, too.
<Robert> Yeah, I don't mind the spoiler.
<Lucas> What? Don't you people ever
read to get your plot twists?
<Jenny> I don't. I've been told to read that book.
<@SLViehl> Okay, I filled James in.
<Anne_Marble> We'll have to jump him in the alley later.
<@SLViehl> I like Anne Perry's work because she does do great twists in the end.
<@SLViehl> Those are both mysteries, James.
<Robert> I would have liked to know the twist then.
<@SLViehl> And for sheer command and elegance of language and knowledge of time period, I highly recommend Anne Perry to everyone. She's a wonderful
writer.
<James> But are they Victorian era, or contemporary? I gather she does both...?
<@SLViehl> They're both set in Victorian London, I believe
<Anne_Marble> And I think she did a fantasy novel recently?
<James> So the twists are not only good twists, but lay well outside contemporary (to the novel) expectations and mores. That is neat.
<@SLViehl> Her one shot at writing fantasy was interesting, but a little
bloodless.
<Anne_Marble> If you saw the movie "Heavenly Creatures" (I think that was it, the early Peter Jackson movie), one of the girls was based on her. :-/
<Lucas> Has Anne McCaffrey done any notable twists? She's about the only author I could be reasonably certain to have read a given book by, so if
anyone has an example from some of her stuff...
<Lucas> Or maybe from Piers Anthony...
<@SLViehl> Anne McCaffrey has a few good ones, twist-wise, but not on the same scale as Anne Perry.
<James> Well, Piers Anthony had Satan turn out to be the good guy after books and books of him apparently being evil.
<@SLViehl> The "Powers" novels she wrote with Scarborough aren't bad. The first one is the best, for an example of a good twist.
<Lucas> Ok, I have read absolutely zero Anne Perry books. They're mysteries, I gather.
<James> In the Incarnations of Immortality series, sorry...
<@SLViehl> Yes, Perry is English. Her stuff comes out in hardcover, so they're in the libraries.
<James> Erk -- sorry, Lucas -- if you haven't read the series I shouldn't have been quite that explicit.
<@SLViehl> Well, as usual, I'm running out of time . . . is everyone up to continue this next month?
<Robert> Absolutely!
<Lucas> I have read the Incarnations books. That's fine James.
<BJ Steeves> Always!!!!
<James> Most certainly
<Jenny> Always.
<Kaelle> Absolutely
<Blair> of course!
<Anne_Marble> OK
<Lucas> Fine. Ready.'
<Jinx> Yep, yep.
<Robert> Waving lots of tentacles happily
<BJ Steeves> Shiela, you need a transcript copy?
<@SLViehl> I'm still working on a mid-length series plotting template. Had to finish my deadlines last month.
I'll try to get that done and posted
before the next session.
<@SLViehl> I think Blair and Robert have one for me, Bj, but thanks
<Robert> Purr, thank you. Will send transcript
<Lucas> It's been what seems like a long time since I read the "Powers"
books. After this I'll probably take another look at the first one. (I think I have it.) Maybe I'll look up Anne Perry. I don't usually read
mysteries so it would be one of those out-of-genre-experiences.
<Anne_Marble> Ick, woman stabbed at Inner Harbor. :-<
<@SLViehl> It's good to scout around, Lucas.
<Jinx> Thanks again, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all of you for making this another fun Friday.
<Robert> Thanks for a good one, Sheila. This was inspiring!
<Kaelle> Yes! Another great session, Sheila.
<James> Yes -- great heaping thanks again. Always fun.
<Anne_Marble> Thank you!!!
<Jenny> Thank you.
<BJ Steeves> We should be thanking you!
<@SLViehl> And everybody, say a little prayer for me tomorrow as I install
the new computer.
<Jinx> Gives new meaning to the chant -- "FRIDAY!! FRIDAY!!"
<@SLViehl> This is not going to be pretty.
<BJ Steeves> If you need help, you have my email address, I do that for a living.
<Robert> May the sacred cow of Gateway shine and bless S. L. Viehl and all her writings...
<James> Fear not, they're so simple these days.
<Kaelle> Lol, Robert
<@SLViehl> I am serious about changing Friday to be more group-oriented, so if you have any auggestions or ideas. e-mail me at SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<Damon> g'luck, SLV
<@SLViehl> The only problem is, I'm simpler, James. Ha
<Anne_Marble> Maybe I can do my headhopping thingie.
<Jinx> Gateways are fairly easy, but luck anyway.
<James> Pshaw, I don't believe it
<Blair> yea, but you have an edge.... children.
<@SLViehl> My son Mike is going to make sure I don't mess it up. He's better at computers than me anyway
<Jinx> (they're color coded -- at least mine is -- makes it real easy to figure out what goes where)
<BJ Steeves> Ahhh, but does he get paid for it like I do???
<@SLViehl> I'll run the think-tank idea past Holly and see what she says. I think she'll like it.
<James> It's a cool idea, Sheila.
<Lucas> It sounds like a good idea to me, so I bet it will go.
<Jenny> I'm going to the airport in an hour and a half, so I've got to scoot into the kitchen now and make Christmas cookies. Thanks again, Sheila, and
good night everyone.
<James> See you, Jenny.
<@SLViehl> Okay, that's a wrap for tonight. Good night to you all, and thanks for being here
<Robert> G'night, Jenny!
<Kaelle> Goodnight all
<James> Bye and thanks to all!
<Anne_Marble> Night!
<Jinx> Night, all!
<Lucas> Ok. Great evening. Good night!
<BJ Steeves> Many thanks Sheila, and if you need computer help...YELL!
<@SLViehl> See you all at Holly's -- bye!