Note: the first part of this transcript -- mainly the hellos and intro -- was lost due to the host being bounced.)
<@SLViehl> There are some serious challenges to writing the extended series
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks Lucas
<James> Staying onlline while talking about them, for one
<Kaelle> <smiling innocently> maybe Jinx should think about another name?...
<@SLViehl> And we'll tackle them in three phases -- we're going to split the extended series into three parts, just like a trilogy
<Jinx> Eep!
<@SLViehl> only we're talking about several books in each phase -- depending on the total number you plan to write
<@SLViehl> Nobody blame poor Jinx, she keeps getting bounced every Friday
<Jinx> Yeah! <hides behind Sheila>
<Kaelle> <snicker>
<@SLViehl> First Phase of the extended series -- the establishment phase
<@SLViehl> This is a lot like what we talked about with the mid-length series -- you're establishing and exploring the story line with multiple volumes. Thing is, you've got more room to play
<@SLViehl> Despite all the room, theme and conflicts are more important than ever.
<@SLViehl> The problem some authors have with the extended series is they simply run out of steam after five books, and/or they get tired of writing about it.
<@SLViehl> It's also dangerously easy to keep rehashing the same conflicts, over and over
<@SLViehl> After all, this is established territory, and writers are very, very faithful to their turf. So in the first phase, you need to arm yourself with 2 weapons:
<@SLViehl> #1 -- Strong, epic theme that does not lend itself easily to resolution.
<Izunya> Darn it. Am I froze?
<@SLViehl> You're going to be writing at least ten books revolving around this theme, and if you want readers to follow the series, give them an excellent reason to do so -- theme.
<@SLViehl> I can see you, Izunya
<James> But she's vanished from the chat list...
<Blair> Just when you thought it was safe to go back into chat....
<@SLViehl> Example: Good versus evil through an extended, sweeping intergalactic war between malevolent empire builders and scrappy freedom fighters. That's been done like a million times, but it's a classic.
<@SLViehl> Star Wars embraces this kind of theme, so I'm going to use it as a working example. All Star Wars haters, just bear with me.
<@SLViehl> #2 -- Variating Conflict. The last thing we want to read about is Luke Skywalker benevolently running the whole empire five minutes after he kills Darth Vader in phase one. Nor do we want to see Luke vanquish a long succession of Darth Vaders and running the empire in between. If there is no conflict, you lose the reader's interest. If the conflict is predictable, you lose the reader's intere
<@SLViehl> intere=interest
<@SLViehl> So think epic theme, and lots of interesting, variating conflict.
<@SLViehl> And you must remain true to the central theme of your series.
<@SLViehl> It's easy to stray from your theme while you're out exploring in phase one. Have fun playing with your standalone cnflicts, but always bring the reader back to what ties them together.
<@SLViehl> Your theme, after all, gave birth to this universe.
<@SLViehl> This is something you -want- to repeat, i.e.: if you have scrappy freedom fighters, they don't need to stay scrappy or fight in every book. But they do need to continue their quest for freedom.
<@SLViehl> Likewise, if you have malevolent empire builders, they don't need to stay in power or have the upper hand -- but they need to remain in opposition to your freedom fighters in some way.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS?
<Robert> Babylon-5 had that epic a scope too and a definite ending, yet a lot of the major parties changed sides often in it.
<James> Do you think a writer should build an escape into their early novels -- something that can be brought forward to end the series if, for some reason, you can't go on with it beyond the next book?
<@SLViehl> Characters are your greatest tools for crafting conflict, Robert. I think change in the character department is very good for the extended series.
<@SLViehl> Yes, definitely, James. Always have a back door out in case you can't sell ten of the fifteen books.
<Bklyn> as an unpublished writer, how can you determine the best length for your series?
<Damon> do you mean, James, mention the Omega 13 device in book 1, but if you get bored at book 5, and don't wish to carry on or can't make it to 15 books, just uncover the Omega 13?
<@SLViehl> Although I planned StarDoc as an open-ended series, I wrote the end to the story
<Bklyn> i was just gonna ask about that
<James> Exactly, Damon, something that can end all the conflicts in the series whenever it's used.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes, Deb, writing a trilogy can be more challenging than writing ten books, depending on the idea and how much you're in love with it. I think it's instinct, but you can always bounce the idea around with another writer, get another view
<Izunya> But if you have something on hand that'll end the conflicts when it's used, how do you keep it from being the logical thing to do at the end of book 1?
<James> Ah, Sheila -- that answers my next question. Would you always write the concluding novel of a series even if you'd come to loathe the series, or had a better offer, or whatever.
<Lucas> Robert, that reminds me of something... It may not have been quite as extended as 10+ books, but Piers Anthony's "Apprentice Adept" series had various characters who kept having to serve the enemy because their morals would not allow them to go back on certain contracts they had made.
<James> Izunya, if it's something that the characters would have had to fight many long battles through many long books to get, to end more quickly just give them a sudden, unexpected chance to get their hands on it.
<@SLViehl> Good question, Izunya. It's the last resort type of resolution -- in my case, the death or final disappearance of my protagonist, as she's the theme of my series.
<James> Oh my god, if your final Stardoc book is going to kill Cherijo, you are in such trouble...
<Robert> Question, Sheila. Can you write her out of that one like Holmes if conditions change and the fans want it back?
<Izunya> What James said. <ferocious face>
<@SLViehl> I always write an end to every series, even if I don't want to end it, James. If you sell it, the editor may ask you, "How do you plan to end this thing?"
<Kaelle> ditto
<@SLViehl> Actually, Cherijo doesn't die in the end of StarDoc, so there -- you've got major insider info.
<Damon> perhaps it's not possible, Iz - a moral code fobidding the use of Omega 13 - don't want to upset the apple cart too much and use it?
<Kaelle> whew
<James> Well thank heaven for that. I would have flown over and whacked you, you know that
<@SLViehl> Cherijo can't die. She's incapable of dying on a cellular level.
<Jinx> hmmm..... I might have had to help James.
<@SLViehl> And explaining that would absolutely ruin the next five books, so my lips are now zipped on that subject.
<Lucas> Know how it ends, otherwise you might end up saying "Actually, I intended to have you keep paying me for these books for the rest of our lives."
<Lucas> Ok, I get that..
<Bklyn> next FIVE books?!?!/ YAYYYY
<James> I suppose we should let you preserve some secrets
<Kaelle> ooooooh, next FIVE books
<@SLViehl> You need a hammer-type of resolution in your back pocket, that much is true. Think about it when you're planning a big series.
<Damon> (and now i want to get hold of the secret final chapter which is locked away in SLV's machine, just like JKRowling has written the last chaptero f the HP series)
<Izunya> Damon: It also occurs to me that neither the characters or the reader need to know about Omega 13 until the writer lets them.
<@SLViehl> Did I miss any questions? (Screen is flying tonight)
<Kaelle> I'll tell you, Sheila, that StarDoc is the only series besides McCaffrey that I WANT ten or more books in the series.
<Lucas> I think you've been keeping right on them.
<Damon> (gotta find an Omega 13 sort of device for my books)
<@SLViehl> Robert, you can always Holmes your way back with a series, I think. Genetic cloning, or magic for you fantasy writers.
<Robert> My question about series characters is, if you pull the Omega 13 and drop Holmes off the falls should you have a fallback to write them back to life in case the fans beat down the door?
<@SLViehl> I can find a million excuses to revive a character put to bed. That's part of the fun of being a series writer.
<Robert> Sheila demonstrates her psychic powers.
<@SLViehl> Sure. Someone finds Holmes down stream, suffering from amnesia, and nurses him back to health. Welcome back, Mr. Holmes.
<Robert> He faked his death to go live on the Left Bank as an artist and he doesn't want to do it any more - that's new conflict!
<Izunya> In science fiction or fantasy, it might actually be fairly easy. Provided you are willing to deal with the consequences, unlike the stereotypical comic book.
<@SLViehl> Now, lets move on to the long-term story line, wabes and ripples:
<Kaelle> wabes?
<Robert> gyring and gimbling
<Izunya> As in, gyre and gimble.
<Lucas> I was waiting for those to start coming in...
<@SLViehl> Because you have so much room to work, you can as a writer become much more crafty and devious with your plot threads and story lines
<@SLViehl> Time and space limitations are no longer a serious concern for you
<@SLViehl> It's like boxing -- I've talked about the one-two-three punch in series writing -- establish/change-challenge/resolve.
<@SLViehl> Now you're going to add to that, flesh it out.
<@SLViehl> Example: Luke discovers a secret message for a hermit who turns out to be a Jedi knight (one)
<@SLViehl> The Jedi knight enlists Luke's aid on a quest to free a princess (two)
<@SLViehl> Luke frees the princess while the Jedi Knight dies battling her evil captor (three)
<@SLViehl> That's a very effective plot. However, the hermit/Jedi knight knows Luke is the son of another Jedi knight, and is ripe for training.
<@SLViehl> He doesn't just take Luke to save the princess, he auditions him as a prospective Jedi.
<@SLViehl> One ripple, right there.
<@SLViehl> The Jedi also knows the evil captor is Luke's Dad, and that the princess is Luke's sister.
<@SLViehl> Won't come out in the first phase, but it's there.
<@SLViehl> Those are waves.
<@SLViehl> The story is crafted to deliver what we expect, on face value -- it makes us assume things.
<Robert> Ripples resolve in the book they're in, waves propagate through and resolve in a later book.
<@SLViehl> The waves and ripples are how you craft what we don't know in the first phase of the story -- the secrets, the revelations waiting to be discovered, the motivations behind the motivations.
<@SLViehl> Punching is fine, ansd necessary, but waves and ripples deepen your story. And you're right on the money, Robert
<@SLViehl> Now, in crafting all that devious stuff, remember the value of simplicity within complexity.
<@SLViehl> Obviously, your story is going to complex, if it takes ten or fifteen books to tell the tale.
<@SLViehl> It may take you hundreds of pages just to outline your ideas for the series.
<@SLViehl> But all that should still distill down to something very simple.
<@SLViehl> We have planets at war, plots within plots, betrayals, victories, defeats, revelations -- but what do they boil down to?
<@SLViehl> Your central theme. That's where they all lead: good versus evil. A voyage of self-discovery. The power of love and hate. Whatever your theme is, it should be running through all that complexity.
<@SLViehl> And no matter what your theme is, it should boil down to one word: conflict.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Damon> (Not knowing much about Star Wars, having only seen the Jarjar Binks film) You mean, Obi Wan Kenobi was killed by Anekin Skywalker? And Obi Wan knew that Darth Vader was Luke's dad and never told him? Wow - that's a bit of a turn up for the books!
<Lucas> Damon - You are missing vital cultural heritage.
<Sarah> See the original three, Damon.
<@SLViehl> Yep. Through everything, Obi Wan knew Darth was Luke's Dad, and never told him.
<James> Wait till you find out Leia is a man
<Lucas> Smack!
<Bklyn> please do Damon
<Robert> Yeah. Note what he said - the Jarjar Binks film. Sheila, what do you do if in one volume of your extended series, some local stupid idea just did
not work? How do you maintain quality in
every book of the series?
<@SLViehl> (didn't mean to ruin them for you, Damon.)
<Gayle> is not James
<Izunya> The original three are worth seeing, if only because they grab from every mythological tradition you can think of.
<James> Clearly, Gayle, you've missed the extend director's -- erm, cut...
<@SLViehl> You kill the book that didn't work and write it over.
<Sarah> (You can map LotR characters onto Star Wars really easily)
<Izunya> Preferably
before publication, one assumes.
<Gayle> I think maybe it's just as well...I like carrie fisher
<@SLViehl> Series writers are not allowed to get lazy. Every book must be as important and captivating as the first or last. Readers demand it.
<@SLViehl> (doesn't mean everybody achieves it, but you should try)
<James> Oh, all right, Carrie Fisher isn't a man
<@SLViehl> And demand that of yourself as a writer. Don't produce housekeeping books.
<Gayle> I know the books in the Star War's series are more connected than the movies are
<Anon_73> Would Raymond E. Feist be a good example of an extended series writer? (only just started reading his stuff)
<Sarah> I think George lost sight of the fact that people like the characters in Star Wars, and the neat FX were a bonus, not the other way around...
<@SLViehl> I don't read Feist. Anyone got an answer?
<Robert> Or he really, personally liked Gunga Din way too much and did not expect that reaction.
<Sarah> Just because you CAN computer animate, doesn't mean you SHOULD
<Izunya> How independent ought books in such a series to be? And if they're going to stand alone, how do you avoid the stupid pages of "when we last left our heroes, who incidentally look like such and such?"
<James> Sheila, paranoid question -- you've just published "Star Wars," and "The Empire Strikes Back" is half written -- when suddenly Greg Bear's new novel appears and it's indistinguishable from your plan. Do you just cross your fingers and write "Return of the Jedi" instead?
<Lucas> So in one sense it's a little easier to write an extended series, because it makes your space boundaries a little looser thus letting you explore more facets of your world at your leisure, but there is increased danger of loosing steam, writing houskeepers, or getting lost from your theme.
<@SLViehl> Izunya, each book must be able to stand on its own -- as if the reader picked it up, not having read the first five books in the series, and can still enjoy it. Publishers demand this. As for backstory, there are various techniques, but the best thing to do is keep backstory to a minimum.
<Robert> Izunya, I noticed in Stardoc, a fine example of extended series, that the backstory of who and what CHerijo is gets shorter and simpler every time and she only mentions what's relevant to that book. Sheila did that smoothly.
<@SLViehl> Oh, James, the ultimate series writer's horror story -- know it only too well. You've got to evaluate the amount of coincidence. If it's too similar, and Bear is published first, you're going to be accused of ripping him off.
<Damon> (Ani killed Obi Wan!) I plan to have my series that I'm working on to be different character, different viewpoint - presenting the whole arc from different angles so anyone can go in at any angle and hang out with a character, without having to hang out with them all and know the whole series
<@SLViehl> Oddly, after StarDoc hit the BSL, suddenly it seemed like everyone was writing about genetically-enhanced doctors.
<Lucas> My only contact with Feist's books was the computer game "Betrayal At Krondor" (one of the best RPG games ever) and the book by the same title, which appeared to be miserably written. Maybe the other books are better, I think they'd have to be or there would be as many of them as I seem to recall there being.
<@SLViehl> But back to the question -- it's a judgement call, James.
<James> A judgement call filled with sleepless nights, I imagine...
<@SLViehl> Also, Izunya -- we talked about ways to handle back story in one of the previous transcripts. Rather than rehash the actual techniques now, if you get a chance, read those over.
<Lucas> That is, there wouldn't be as many of them as there are.
<Izunya> Lucas: I haven't read the man, but to be fair I would think it's possible to be a competent writer and a miserable adaptor.
<@SLViehl> Shall we take a five minute break, guys?
<Damon> okay, SLV
<Izunya> Fine by me.
<James> Oh, it's that time already, sure
<Kaelle> yes
<@SLViehl> brb, going to put the kettle on
<Gayle> yes!!
<Anne_Marble> Wasn't the Krondor series originally based on his ideas? Anyway, I've heard his other books are better.
<Venus> <is sneaking in on the break>
<Lucas> Izunya: That could be. The odd thing was, the game was supposed to be based on his series, but the book read like it had been based on the game.
<Robert> Intermission - time to change files.
<Damon> RS2 - 15,557
<Robert> Way to go, Damon!
<Izunya> Huh. Well, I don't know anything about the game or the author.
<Anne_Marble> Grrrrr, so much spam from one quasi-legitimate company. :-< Down with Virtumundo!!! Not only are they spammers, but they are lousy at coming up with a company name!
<@SLViehl> Heya Venus
<Crista> Hey, Robert. I've got about half of my story written. <g> How about you?
<Sarah> The only Feist book I've read so far that I liked was Faerie Tale -- which I liked a lot.
<Venus> hiya!
<Izunya> Hey, Venus!
<Venus> Sorry to be late--it's been mad here
<Robert> I have been fighting a 700 year old vampire who refuses to speak the English language properly and I've threatened to change the story from his first person POV.
<Lucas> Maybe I should look for some of his other books.
<@SLViehl> Sarah, who's a good extended series fantasy writer?
<Anne_Marble> More bulk mail. Thunk!!! (That was my head hitting the monitor.)
<James> I'm not Sarah, but I point to Terry Pratchett.
<Crista> LOL.
<Robert> Mercedes Lackey has finished multiple groups of four or five books out of the same world, she changes century when it gets too resolved and lets the evils stew a few centureis.
<Sarah> Oy. I would say Lackey or McCaffrey, but they seem to be losing it.
<Venus> I've read a bunch of Feist--I'm convinced that Silverthorn is his best book
<Damon> I like Faerie Tale
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, pump & dump stock scheme spam! Drooling as I forward a copy to the SEC.
<@SLViehl> I'm thinking Laurell K. Hamilton for horror, and William Fortschen for AH, can't think of SF series writer I like . . .
<Venus> Sarah> I thought McCaffrey was SF
<Izunya> I like Bujold for SF.
<Sarah> It's splitting hairs with Pern. <G>
<@SLViehl> Oh, I know -- Sharon Lee and Steve Miller's Liaden books. Great series, and I think it now qualifies as extended.
<Venus> Bujold does do good SF
<Robert> Edgar Rice Burroughs. Several of them. Tarzan and Mars were the big fat ones.
<Venus> How about Stephen Brust?
<Venus> And Heinlein and Asimov (of course) both do massive extended series
<Robert> Everything Heinlein ever wrote was part of the Heinlein Future History.
<@SLViehl> I liked the first Crystal Singer and the First Powers That Be McCaffrey did.
<Sarah> Tanya Huff has five books in the Vicki Nelson series which stayed high quality till the end. She could still continue with them, but I'm not sure if she is.
<Lucas> Ms. McCaffrey would clobber you for that Venus. It's Sci-FI, and you aren't to forget it. But, to be honest, it was hard to tell at first.
<Izunya> Hmm. Doesn't Andre Norton have some extended fantasy series out there, along with all the SF?
<Crista> You go, Anne! <g>
<Venus> Lucas> I said that McCaffery was Sci-fi
<@SLViehl> Please do
not say the name Heinlein around me tonight.
<Robert> Norton has a lot.
<Anne_Marble> Rip!!! Tear!!!
<Venus> CJ Cherryh does extended SF series--all the azi books are linked
<James> Tanith Lee. Well, she hasn't done a long series, no, but she's marvelous so I just thought I'd mention her
<Izunya> I thought so. I think Cherryh and Marion Zimmer Bradley have extended fantasy series too.
<Sarah> I'm frozen...
<Lucas> Oops, I meant Sarah, she was the culprit. Sorry Venus, I pointed the wrong finger. (Sound of person slapping head...)
<@SLViehl> You can't buy Tanith Lee's books over here. Another reason to go move in with James, everybody.
<@SLViehl> brb, tea's whistling
<James> Bugger. I'd better go and make up some beds...
<Crista> i think the best book of McCaffery's Pern series for me was the one that explained everything. I believe it was book six and called Dragonsdawn or something. I wasn't too keen on the series until that point. then I really began to like it.
<Venus> OH! Iain M. Banks
<Venus> brilliant extended SF
<Izunya> And Darkover is like Pern in some ways; it sort of crosses the borders.
<James> Venus, yes -- he's brilliant.
<Venus> <drool>
<Crista> Why can't you buy Tanith Lee books over here? Out of print?
<Damon> If anyone ever works out what the Culture is, please let him know (according to an interview he did)
<Lucas> Darkover. I still haven't read all of those. Many of them are quite good though, and have plenty in common with Fantasy despite the occaisional spaceship.
<@SLViehl> I can never find them. I have a bookseller in Britain who smuggles them over for me -- my sister loves Tanith
<James> If Tanith Lee's unavailable to you, someone should organize a protest. Lovely, dark, lyrical fantasy.
<Sarah> Alexandra is the Diana Wynne Jones expert, but if the books I'm thinking of are in fact part of the same series, she nailed it.
<Venus> <still thinking about fantasy>
<Gayle> {seems to be very quiet as she listens to everybody talk about some of her favorite authors]...sorry, it's just a quiet sort of night for me...
<@SLViehl> How about RA Salvatore? Does anyone read that series? (if it is a series?)
<Sarah> Did my post about Tanya Huff come through before I froze?
<Robert> Ack the name's escaping me. Big fantasy guy, five book clumps, David B. and dang if I can remember the rest.
<@SLViehl> Yep, I saw that one, Sarah
<Sarah> Okay.
<Kaelle> David Brin?
<Anne_Marble> Eddings?
<Venus> David Eddinds?
<@SLViehl> Gayle, you go right ahead and be quiet and we won't bug you.
<Lucas> Who wrote the "Belgariad" and the "Malorian"?
<Izunya> I haven't read much RA Salvatore; the ones I read were a little rough, but they may have been early ones.
<Venus> eddings
<Kaelle> Eddings
<Izunya> And, Lucas, that would be Eddings.
<Venus> and the Elenium and the one that came after it
<James> Stephen Baxter's run of Xeelee books are probably worth mentioning, if they haven't come up already and I missed it.
<Venus> But I wouldn't qualify those at extended--they only have one plot
<Robert> Eddings. Let me scroll back, I can't get it to go back far enough to click and copy.
<Gayle> maybe I'll be more talkative next week....
<James> We could tickly you, if that would help...
<James> Ahem. Tickle.
<@SLViehl> Xanth novels -- Anthony writes enough of those, but I hear people complaining about them now. Pratchett's DiscWorld.
<Sarah> Neil Gaiman's Sandman series, though not exactly books in the traditional sense, are amazing consistently through all ten books.
<Lucas> Ok, David Eddings. I wasn't too interested in his series, but I liked the two big fat parallel books he wrote to it. ("Belgarath the Sorceror" and whatever the one about Polgara was called.)
<James> Oh, Lord , the Xanth novels. They've become very sameish.
<Sarah> I think he only writes Xanth now because they sell.
<@SLViehl> Xanth novels are God's way of telling you you're making too much advance money.
<Gayle> lol...but it sort of hurt...but then I hurt a little anyway....
<Izunya> Xanth got pretty silly. The Split Infinity books were okay, though.
<James> I'm young. Humfrey gives me a mission. I solve puzzles. I almost glimpse underwear. I win and get engaged. My children do the same in the next book.
<Lucas> Terry Brooks, the Shannara series.
<Sarah> I think the best Anthony series was the Incarnations of Immortality.
<Venus> Shannara = gag
<Izunya> James: Don't forget, "I nearly get eaten by a vast number of unfunny, pun-based vegetation."
<James> Mm, Incarnations of Immortality was interesting.
<Izunya> Amount. I mean, vast amount.
<@SLViehl> Terry Goodkind is writing some series. Lord, I have to do more market research reading.
<James> Lord, how could I forget the puns?
<Izunya> I didn't like all of Incarnations, but I did keep coming back to it.
<@SLViehl> Yeah, I liked that one too, Sarah -- particularly the Death one
<Robert> Nothing's coming through now.
<@SLViehl> James, if you start making puns, we will gang up on you and beat you up.
<Izunya> On a Pale Horse was the best, in my opinion.
<James> Death and Satan. Sucker that I am, I loved it when the sinners were sung out of hell.
<Lucas> Venus - Shannara rates a "gag" from you? Hmm, ok... Anything in particular about it?
<@SLViehl> Okay, is everybody back and ready to go?
<Sarah> Death and Satan. What James said.
<Izunya> Yup.
<James> Yep
<Robert> I managed to copy everything but now even my posts just go nowhere.
<Kaelle> ready
<Jinx> I think I'm here.
<Anne_Marble> I'm here. With a bottled vanilla shake by "Moovers." :->
<@SLViehl> How to avoid episodal doldrums while keeping running threads alive and vibrant --
<Venus> k
<Izunya> But I think Robert may be deaf and dumb at the moment. Is anyone else reading him?
<Gayle> yes
<Anne_Marble> I'm reading him.
<@SLViehl> It's easy to run out of steam, we all know that. You get bored.
<Robert> I've got a problem with fast scrolling at the moment.
<@SLViehl> Hey Robert, can you see us?
<@SLViehl> I think the more people we have, the bigger time delay in getting the posts to pop up
<Anne_Marble> Yay!!! Anne Smith got my Epiphany present. (Translation: Very late Christmas present.)
<Robert> I'm seeing you now.
<Anne_Marble> (For her present, I painted a small wooden frame and put piano and musical note stickers on it and inserted a picture of Glenn Gould.)
<Lucas> I think we're doing Ok, provided we just keep talking and don't spend too much time asking each other if we can still see each other.
<@SLViehl> Okay. Back to running out of steam -- this generally happens because you're not introducing new things to keep your interest involved. And if you're bored, the reader will definitely be bored. Some solutions:
<@SLViehl> Kill someone important.
<@SLViehl> This can even be your protagonist, if he/she's done growing as a character for you. Replace him or her with someone mysterious and unlike him/her.
<@SLViehl> Introducing new blood breathes new life into a story, and no protagonist has to live forever. But if you don't want to kill your protagonist, try an important secondary character. Or try this --
<@SLViehl> Slam the protagonist so hard with a conflict that it changes him/her forever.
<@SLViehl> A huge, life-altering event allows you to refashion your character, and give them some new pluses and minuses.
<@SLViehl> Or move.
<@SLViehl> if you're stuck in a setting you're bored with, relocate the cast. Somewhere totally unlike the previous setting. Give yourself and your characters new challenges.
<@SLViehl> Running threads are particularly important to pay attention to when you're instigating a great change in the series, as mentioned above.
<@SLViehl> If your protagonist dies, obviously the replacement has to cope with the involving running threads.
<@SLViehl> Life-altering events can change a character's decisions and perceptions.
<@SLViehl> Moving means running threads either move with your characters, or follow them. Classic moving thread -- the past catches up with your cast just as they're happily settled down in the new place. Bing, new conflict.
<@SLViehl> And that completes phase one of the extended series.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Kaelle> Oh - Joel Rosenberg, he has a series where characters crossed over from our world to their gaming world. He killed off an important character, causing new conflicts.
<Venus> he killed off THE main character--the next book was everyone looking for hte main character who they thought was still alive
<@SLViehl> It's a great interest-generator, killing an important character, creating a space for a newbie
<Kaelle> Venus, I wasn't going to spoil it for anyone who didn't know who he killed off.
<Venus> oh! sorry!
<Kaelle> nada
<Venus> <blush>
<Robert> If you used to have an absolutely fantastic villain and in about twenty books he really did get finally dead, how do you follow that act? What do you do when the villain's the guy that's gone?
<Izunya> (I'm back.)
<Crista> In killing off the protag, is it cliche to replace him or her with his kid or other close relative?
<@SLViehl> You come up with a bigger, badder, more fantastic replacement, Robert.
<Lucas> Get another villain from the same place you get your new heroes, I'd guess.
<Robert> Actually you faced something like that in re Cherijo in the four books I've read, Sheila. Do you come up with a different style of villain?
<Anne_Marble> Maybe you could be developing some of his underlinings as potential baddies.
<@SLViehl> I don't think that's cliche, Crista. Works for me.
<Damon> (Little Ani killed Obi Wan?) doesnt that run the risk of "bad guy's dead - next baddie please"?
<Izunya> Or you try to get a completely different but equally cool villain. Which can be a trick, but I think it can be done.
<@SLViehl> I have so many villains to chose from with StarDoc that I'll never run out, Robert. It just depends who I stick in the spotlight -- Cherijo makes a lot of enemies.
<James> In Stardoc, you've got the happy feature that many, many people want to get their hands on an immortal, enhanced doctor...
<Robert> I had a coldly self interested, brilliant sociopath who darn near succeeded. Did in a mystical sense.
<Anne_Marble> The recurring villain was the problem with the TV series "Profiler." They put so much attention into the villain. "Jack" appeared in most of the episodes, but you never got to see his face, he was always in the background. So you never had a true sense of the villain
<Anne_Marble> 's villainy. just people talking about how terrible he was.
<@SLViehl> Damon, I don't think you can have just one villain. People have lots of enemies over the course of a lifetime. Their impact depends on circumstances.
<@SLViehl> And even the best of characters can become a villain, under the right circumstances.
<Robert> He used good guys for his pawns. He was sick. Should I replace him with an over the top very simple straightforward fanatic?
<Lucas> I find it interesting where the villian with vision and ability is conquered, only to be replaced by a less competent but one of his underlings who is far more cruel and desperate than he ever was.
<@SLViehl> Flipping a former hero or good guy really puts interest in a series.
<@SLViehl> I'd use whoever wants or has to replace him, Robert
<Robert> Thanks, Sheila. That's a great thought, since that would also mean he'd try to recruit Main Series Guy.
<Venus> The thing that Eddings did well was having villains behind the villains--whenever one was defeated, someone even more terrible would take their place!
<@SLViehl> Men in power always have acolytes waiting in the winds
<Izunya> I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a simple fanatic; they all have their special thing.
<@SLViehl> winds=wings
<James> You could look at the ways your characters have adapted their strategies to the old villain, and pick a villain type that would initially smash those strategies apart, if you see what I mean.
<Sarah> Ooh, who did that (good guy flipping). There's an example hanging just out of reach, but Edward the Less keeps blocking my view...
<Robert> I meant as a core concept, Izunya, like villain one's core concept was "I am not self destructive, just nasty"
<@SLViehl> That works, James. And generates more interest from the reader, I'm thinking.
<Robert> He was a cynic, I'd be throwing them a passionate idealist, the other dangerous type.
<Izunya> I see what you mean as a core concept. Say you had one villain who
always hid behind other people, completely honorless, etc. You could replace him with someone who had a strong sense of honor, but absolutely no compassion.
<Lucas> It was done in the Star Wars books, where the replacement villian is incompetent, but because he has no grand view, he can cause even more havoc than the first one.
<@SLViehl> The "cruel to be kind" type of villain, eh, Robert?
<Crista> Heh. My extended series protag kinda IS the villain... this series is going to definitely be an experiment...
<Robert> Right, Sheila. Thinks he knows best for everyone, unlike his predecessor who knew he was just out for himself.
<@SLViehl> Neat approach, Crista
<Izunya> Robert: yes, that sounds like a definite possibility. To me, anyway.
<Robert> I adore her, Crista.
<Lucas> Robert, this guy sounds even worse. Aack.
<@SLViehl> Okay, onward to Phase Two of the extended series . . .
<James> If your heroes are used to complex, chess like strategems, you could make your idealist slightly telepathic. Complex plans are useless, he knows what they are. You can't lie to him, misdirect him, or cheat him.
<Crista> yeah. Emara is REALLY happy that i'm attneding this class tonight. <g>
<@SLViehl> The all-seeing, all-knowing cruel to be kind villain. I like that, James.
<Lucas> You get big dice. That way, no one knows what's happening, and the villian has probably grown to rely on his telepathy so much he won't be able to respond to pure random action.
<Robert> It's wonderful! Thanks for the solution. It's not telepathy, he's up against telepaths, it's worse.
<Gayle> .
<James> Ah, maybe he has the ability to block telepathy around him. Heroes lose ability to communicate as they're accustomed to.
<@SLViehl> All right, now that we've solved Robert's problem, onward
<Robert> More that he's got timesight and thinks he's God.
<James> Ah, neat. Sorry, Sheila. I shall fall silent
<@SLViehl> Phase two in the extended series is where the challenges and changes really come into play -- but again, you're not in a rush to slam the reader with these. No problem, James, I'm just runnning out of clock again. <g>
<Gayle> think my computer froze up
<@SLViehl> Think more exploration of changes and challenges rather than simply presenting and defining them for the reader. Middles can be the point where you run out of steam most often, so you want your standalone conflicts to be clear, strong, and full of momentum.
<@SLViehl> Gayle, can you see us?
<Bklyn> how do you balance the pacing between the book's conflict, and the overall series conflict
<@SLViehl> The number of books an author can perpetuate exploration instead of resolution: I've been trying to come up with a formula on how long you can entertain a reader with a running thread without tying it up, and I think it depends on the thread.
<@SLViehl> The heavier the impact of the resolution, the longer you can play it out.
<Gayle> i'm back
<@SLViehl> You need to progress the situation for the reader -- never have the same set of circumstances perpetuated with no resolution -- but that's part of the exploration.
<@SLViehl> In an extended series, Deb, the pacing is a lot different between those two. You have one book to introduce, play with, and resolve your standalone conflict. You've got ten, fifteen, or twenty books to do the same with the series main conflict
<Lucas> I feel like I've been lost. Am I still coming through?
<James> Have I vanished, or is it everyone else?
<Anon_68> my screen jsut froze, Lucas
<@SLViehl> Example on the perpetuation of a thread -- Luke becomes a Jedi knight
<Izunya> James, Lucas, I can see you.
<@SLViehl> I can still see everyone, Lucas, James
<@SLViehl> Tell you what, why don't we save the rest of this for our next session (already on the calendar) and do open Q&A from here? N54 is sabotaging us too much
<Jinx> Sounds good to me. I've been freezing up all night. (I know, big surprise here)
<Lucas> Ok. I'm back.
<Bklyn> i'm lost cause i went on an ice cream run <g>
<Bklyn> sorry Sheila
<James> A sign of life! I thought I'd vanished for good... But yes, maybe we are a bit too unstable for a regular class...
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, this thing is getting weird.
<Kaelle> I think Cato's escaped
<@SLViehl> We're supposed to be able to fit 100 people in here, usually. Hmmmm . . . .
<Robert> Toughest transcript I've ever done, there might be an overlapping portion in the second file.
<@SLViehl> okay, so any questions or plot problems?
<James> 100 people fit, it's just the floor keeps dropping away
<Robert> Maybe the clones are invisible.
<Anne_Marble> Like the Rotor at Kings Dominion! Euwww.
<@SLViehl> There's only 14 of us. Not like we're a real mob
<Crista> In everyone's opinion, how hard of a sell is it going to be to get reader's into a series with your typical villain as the protagonist and the typical hero types as the antagonists? And manage to give sympathy to the villain but she still retains her darkness?
<Anne_Marble> Since when did John Ritter start looking so OLD?! <sniffle>
<James> Maybe if we all stand very still in the middle of the room...
Lucas Shiela, I noticed lately that there is a chat-room designated as the place to go if the conference room isn't working. Doesn't that mean we didn't need to take over the main chat room that last time you couldn't access this room?
<Crista> I think I froze up this time...
<Bklyn> ok...well, from the reading i've done on my book, i have a lot of foreshadowing in the beginning, but it may not all fit in this book. I am now focusing on the overall conflict, and losing focus on the immediate conflict....having a hard time balancing the two, I guess. This is the 1st of the series
<Damon> James - and all jump at once, we can knock the Earth of its axis
<James> Sounds good, Damon -- on the count of three...
<@SLViehl> Well, Susan Mathews does it with her torturer guy protagonist. He's haunted and cruelly denied his calling, but still manages to maim, torture and kill people.
<Crista> Am i back now?
<Robert> Gene Wolfe did it too in his series, Crista.
<Lucas> I think so, Crista.
>Lucas< I should have done that earlier Lucas -- good point. Next time, we move!
<Lucas> I hadn't noticed that you dissapeared.
<Robert> And you did sell the short story in which she was at her worst and did... get what she wanted.
<Izunya> Are there any guidelines you would recommend for making a character or characters who don't get boring in this sort of series?
<Kaelle> hello?
<James> Sounds doable, Crista. As a reader, I'd want the villain to either be so stylish that reading her bits are a joy, or for her motives to be good but her means evil, or both.
<Crista2> My screen completely froze...
<Izunya> <waves to Kaelle>
<Robert> See you Kaelle
<Sarah> Who's the author of the books with Tarrant? He's one of the good guys, and he murders his wife and children in the first couple pages.
<Crista2> I missed everything after I asked my question...
<@SLViehl> Sounds like you might need to work out an outline to follow while writing, Deb -- would that help?
<Robert> The answer to your question is a resounding yes, Crista. Emara will fly.
<James> In that case, reposting: Sounds doable, Crista. As a reader, I'd want the villain to either be so stylish that reading her bits are a joy, or for her motives to be good but her means evil, or both.
<Anne_Marble> C. S. Friedman
<Lucas> <@SLViehl> said this: Well, Susan Mathews does it with her torturer guy protagonist. He's haunted and cruelly denied his calling, but still manages to maim, torture and kill people.
<Kaelle> All right then, what god or gods or saints should we appease to keep from freezing?!
<Sarah> Thanks Anne.
<Anne_Marble> And he was cute, too. ;->
<James> Coyote?
<Damon> sacrifice somebody to St Jabber
<Izunya> We need to ceremonially butcher and burn a floppy disc.
<Lucas> I think those were the only pertinent responses, Crista.
<Kaelle> aaaarrrrgggghhhhh
<Bklyn> oh no Sheila...you said the "O" word......<sigh> I guess I need to try doing one of those
<@SLViehl> Izunya, I think you have to invest what keeps you interested in writing the characters -- think of your favorite authors, and what they do with the characters in the series you like. Look at how they change and grow and progress. Look at the type of person the character is, with all their flaws and merits.
<Crista2> Thanks, guys.
<@SLViehl> They're not so bad. I ought to do an Outlines Are Our Friends session.
<Izunya> Makes sense. If I'm not interested, why should anyone else be?
<Anne_Marble> I'm TIRED. And my mother might be coming tomorrow! Yeep yeep yeep (running around five minutes before she comes, throwing things in closet.)
<Robert> Please do, Sheila. Once it's outlined how do you sustain that intensity that just roaring ahed with it gives?
<@SLViehl> (folding arms, tapping foot) and we're all carefully OUTLINING our series, right?
<Crista2> Yes, Sheila! My outlines are terrible.
<Gayle> maybe....
<Jinx> outline?
<Robert> We're learning to? Get it right once by accident, next time by design?
<James> I'm getting used to outlines -- find them vaguely appealing now. (Last night chopped 2000 words from the one I'm working on. Ouch.)
<Gayle> or at least know where I want it to go...
<Lucas> Before a word touches the screen.
<Crista2> I outline... just don't do it WELL.
<Damon> outlines are difficult to do
<Kaelle> Isn't your template an outline?
<@SLViehl> Conflict, Robert. Lotsa conflict that directly impacts on your characters.
<Izunya> Depends on what you mean by outlining. Numbers and bullets, not neccesarily. But I do have lots of arrows.
<Izunya>
<James> Arrows have the added virtue that you can fall on them when things go badly, ending the pain.
<@SLViehl> It's harder to get into that outline method of thinking, but once you get enough practice, it gets easier.
<Robert> I still feel like the jazzman going to Juilliard here.
<@SLViehl> Notes are good -- anything that gives you direction as a writer, and the ability to plan what you're going to write.
<Izunya> Well, jazz uses an outline, right? Then you jam around the chords.
<Sarah> I'm thinking of getting my own Vicinity (remember the old FM?) for the Kichani outline, because I'm starting to run into a lot of cross referencing, and I can link things if I do it online.
<Lucas> Outlines are fun, however you do them. It's a lot better than getting halfway through a project and suddenly discover it isn't going to work.
<Gayle> I'm having (personally...not the computer) a hard time tracking right now...so I think I say good night to all of you lovely people...and MAYBE give Nathan his movie for tonight
<Crista2> My outlines are either too full of info or so bare that i re-read later and try to decipher what i meant with little success.
<@SLViehl> And you can always abandon an outline, write another, or revise the outline you have while writing.
<Jinx> Don't feel bad, Robert. I only play the kazoo. ;-P
<@SLViehl> Night Gayle
<Izunya> See you, Gayle.
<James> See you, Gayle.
<Lucas> Good night Gayle.
<Damon> See you, Gayle.
<Crista2> G'night, Gayle.
<Sarah> Night Gayle
<Robert> Night, Gayle
<Anne_Marble> Night Gayle
<Damon> (Night John-Boy)
<@SLViehl> I really use the novel plotting template -- in fact, I just sent one of mine to Rob so he could see how I filled it out. It creates a nice plot outline to work from
<Anne_Marble> Oh, what a revelation in Law & Order SVU!
<Damon> I feel like I've just fallen into an episode of the Waltons
<@SLViehl> I also create character flow charts on my dry erase board.
<Izunya> I end up reading a lot of writing books, and I notice a bit of variation in what people mean by "outline;" some people go on for pages, in structured rows, and other people write enigmatic notes like K--->R (exposition) R--->mother.
<@SLViehl> We're an affectionate bunch, Damon.
<Crista2> What sort of flow charts? Mapping character changes and such?
<Izunya> (I prefer a happy medium, myself.)
<Robert> Do sloppy descriptive synopses punctuated by backstage scenes that do point out events ahead count as outlines?
<@SLViehl> I do outlines the way my Nazi English teacher in high school taught me, but that doesn't necessarily work for everyone. It's just a bunch of directions, really, like mapping the book.
<Lucas> Dry erase boards are neat. I have a big one right next to my bed.
<Bklyn> what kind of outliner are you Sheila? detailed? ordered?
<Damon> one writing book i have says YOU MUST outline by deciding how many paragraphs per scene, how the protagonist will do X, plot it down to the type of tea in the pot - too much detail!
<James> Probably there are almost as many ways of doing outlines as there are writers. I guess the trick is find out what works for you, or even if outlines work for you at all.
<Bklyn> you do the roman numerals Sheila?
<Izunya> Robert: does it work? I think it counts as an outline, but if it doesn't work, you might want to try something else.
<@SLViehl> I use colored markers and map out what happens to my characters (plot-wise) in a novel. Basically, my evil designs on their persons, Crista
<Damon> i outline by dropping a hint onto an index card and plucking it out when i need it
<Robert> It worked for figuring out who teh dead bad guy was and who was behind all that stuff and how far they'd dig to it per book.
<Crista2> That sounds like a really good idea...
<Crista2> Mind if i steal it? <g>
<@SLViehl> I think I'm more of a general outliner, Deb. I get into details in my novel notebook, that's where I write pages and pages of notes to myself about what I want to do with details. The bare bones outline I do just hits the highlights of the novel.
<Robert> I like the colored markers. That sounds more fun than roman numerals and I've got gel pens.
<@SLViehl> Steal away, Crista!
<@SLViehl> Sure, Robert -- if it works for you, anything counts as an outline.
<Bklyn> i've got a white board, that my daughter the
artiste took over....maybe i need to reclaim it lol
<Lucas> Doesn't one of the articles on this site say you can steal anything from anywhere, provided you make it you own afterwards?
<Crista2> I have a big, unused sketchbook and shiny new colored markers... I'm trying that!
<Izunya> Robert: Then you might like this idea. I put the things I'm certain of down in black. I put other things down in green. (Then, of course, I revise the things in black anyway.) It gives me a sense of where I need to concentrate.
<Kaelle> I'd be interested in seeing how you filled out your template, Sheila.
<Lucas> I'm sure Ms. Lisle has an article something like "How to Legally and Ethically Steal Ideas". :
<Lucas> )
<Crista2> Me, too.
<@SLViehl> Some how-to writers get pretty hung up in unnecessary detail, Damon. That kind of outlining is so draining, imho
<Izunya> The downside is that it can be most upsetting when the cat waltzes away with one's green pen.
<Crista2> Yeah, I've read it, Lucas. Like 5 times. <g>
<Robert> What you
mean is having some idea of where you're going and the pace to get there.
<Lucas> Same here Damon. I like some plenty of good details for the outline, but that much? Bleh.
<Damon> that's why i didnt rate that book too well - should write a damning review for vision
<Lucas> Crista - Of course. What was I thinking? I can hardly recommend this site's own articles to the people using its chat rooms.
<@SLViehl> I can e-mail a completed novel plotting template -- my way of outlining -- to anyone who wants to have a look at how I do it. E-mail me at SLViehlworkshop@aol.com, and I'll shoot one off to you.
<Robert> Please do! Ari will mail you - he has more room in his Yahoo mailbox.
<Crista2> <g> I think I've read Mugging the Muse more than any other book. Ever.
<Kaelle> Cool, thanks Sheila.
<Robert> Thank you!
<@SLViehl> It's just supposed to be a guide, I think, Robert. To know where you're heading, and what will happen when you get there. It gives you direction. That doesn't mean you can't take an interesting, alternate route if you find one, halfway through the book.
<Izunya> I may do that. Thanks!
<Anne_Marble> I'm tired, and I think I will just slither off the Internet now.
<Izunya> G'night, Anne.
<Kaelle> 'night
<James> Night, Anne.
<Lucas> So what is the biggest difference between writing a mid-length series and an extended one?
<Robert> See you, Anne
<@SLViehl> Night Anne
<Anne_Marble> Night!
<Lucas> Good night Anne.
<Anne_Marble> And Thank You!
<@SLViehl> Space and time to play, Lucas. You've got more with the extended series. Mid-length has to be a bit tighter, more direct in progression.
<Damon> Night Anne
<Robert> I did parallel worlds so sometimes the side trips wind up gnerating other planets that become antagonistic...
<Izunya> What do you call the sort of series that is set in the same universe and seems to have the same theme, but doesn't seem to have much else stringing it together?
<@SLViehl> Figure in a mid-length series, you've got three books maximum to establish your main storyline. In an extended series, you can do it over five, six, seven or more books.
<Bklyn> and just because you have a trilogy, or a mid-length series, there's no reason why you can't develop a entirely new series in that same universe
<Izunya> Is that an extended series, or something else?
<Kaelle> Hmm...do you need to have the same character or group of chars for each book to call it a series?
<Kaelle> I mean, I have an idea for a theme,but each book would end that char's involvement.
<Damon> Narnia didn't have the same characters everytime (apart from that infernal Lion)
<@SLViehl> Well, it would depend on the strength of the binding theme, Izunya. If the theme remains the same for all the books, then you've got a series. If it wanders, you've got related books with cross-over characters.
<Kaelle> Oh! true
<Izunya> Mm. Okay.
<@SLViehl> Characters can change. Settings can change. Plots should change. Central theme should remain the same for each book in a series.
<Lucas> You thought you were free Shiela, then whoosh, we ambushed you on the way out with topic related questions.
<Bklyn> i've got a trilogy planned. but the successful resolution of the core conflict of the trilogy still leaves an opening for an open ended series of related novels...does that make sense?
<Izunya> I was thinking (sort of) of the Ship Who series . . . or the Ship Who group of books, whichever.
<@SLViehl> Hey, ambush away, I love this part.
<@SLViehl> Sure, Deb. You always want to leave room for the next trilogy
<Lucas> Blkyn - It sounds fine to me. Do you remember the "Xanth Trilogy"? As it was called on the cover of the third book?
<@SLViehl> Any really good series lends itself to future incarnations, I think
<Bklyn> how many are there? 20? 30? lol and they have gotten soooo tiresome
<Crista2> Hmmm. I think I just figured out the main theme behind Emara's series... This is too cool.
<Izunya> I think the, "And Thirty Years Later," trilogy is a time-honored tradition. In fact, Lord of the Rings is like that, sort of.
<@SLViehl> Look at Dune. Herbert dies, and his kid is carrying it on (and making major bucks at it, too)
<Bklyn> that is a series that IMO needs to be retired
<Bklyn> Xanth i mean
<Lucas> Blkyn - Well, not all of the latest ones are hot cakes, but some of the earlier ones after the first three were ok.
<James> Lord, the Dune prequels. Somehow missing everything that made Dune readable...
<@SLViehl> Unless the universe collapses, you always have room for future stories. Past stories. Sequels, prequels, parallel novels . . .
<Lucas> You could be right. Wasn't he (Piers Anthony) intending to retire that series? But couldn't do it because the fans demaned more of it?
<@SLViehl> Yeah, like Herbet. (all due respect to the kid and his writing partner)
<James> Well, yes, they may write delightful novels on their own -- but they could never have produced the original Dune, or fitting successors.
<Lucas> When it isn't published it's called "Fan Fiction"...
<@SLViehl> A good argument for why a writer should just come up with their own ideas and not cannabilize the past, James.
<Damon> hey RS2 - i managed to save Reygh book to my yahoo briefcase and am now back were I was before the problems arose two days ago - 15,757 words
<@SLViehl> lol Lucas
<James> Amen.
<Izunya> Yay!
<Robert> Yayy Damon! Whew!
<@SLViehl> One announcement before we officially close shop -- next Friday is our first Writer's Think Tank, here at conf. room one, 9-11pm EST
<@SLViehl> WTG, Damon
<James> Mind you, Herbert's faired well compared to someone like Virginia Andrews, who's become the Virginia Andrews industry.
<Robert> Fantastic, Sheila - I loved that idea.
<Izunya> Um, what's a writer's think tank when it's at home?
<Lucas> What's going to be thought about at the think tank? Or is that to be decided later?
<Damon> What's the Think Tank? (excuse my ignorance)
<@SLViehl> If you'd like to get together and brainstorm ideas, problems, whatever -- come and join us. I'll be moderating
<James> Yep, it's going to be a hoot.
<Kaelle> It's like tonight without an outline
<Crista> That's so cool.
<Lucas> Ok. So it will be kind of like an entire class made up of the after the class brain-storming we're doing now.
<Anon_30> we get to do
this for 2 hours <g>
<@SLViehl> It's like what we're doing now, without the formal class or presentation. We deal with real problems and find solutions together.
<James> Exactly, Lucas. A creative maelstrom of problem solving.
<Robert> I jumped the gun on it with my question about the dead villain.
<Izunya> Sounds fun! I'll show if I can.
<@SLViehl> We've been doing it casually since I started doing session, and the stuff we come up with is great.
<James> Hey, Robert -- you write so fast you'll have another problem by next week
<Robert> Who might not be his successor but someone who went way too far trying to take him down.
<Kaelle> Great idea sparkers here.
<Kaelle> lol James
<Crista> Myabe I CAn work on two novels at the same time... <g>
<@SLViehl> Any last questions?
<Robert> When I think I write fast, I look at Sheila's word counts and see my future.
<Crista> I don't think I'm going to be bale to resist at least outlining Emara's first book....
<James> Hovering - on - brink - of - jealous - despair...
<Anon_30> btw...sheila, the med fact of the day is quite interesting
<Robert> Do it, Crista. Sheila, does it helps ometimes to jump back and forth on totally different projects to keep lively?
<Izunya> James: You're not alone.
<@SLViehl> Thanks -- I got tired of gloating.
<@SLViehl> For me, it helps hold my interest, and keeps my energy level high. I get bored easily.
<Lucas> So, if there is medical Sci-Fi, is there any medical Fantasy? (I ask because I'm in the midst of plotting something that looks suspiciously similar to that description.)
<James> Still, Izunya, as Sheila reminded me a little while ago, 500 words a day adds up to 2 large books a year -- I cling to that
<Robert> Purr, thank you. My sleeping series woke up but now the other one's awake too.
<@SLViehl> Fantasy writers, help me out with Lucas's question
<Izunya> Lucas: if not, you could invent it . . .
<Kaelle> I can't think of any
<Robert> Lucas, it would be cool. I recommend soaking lots of herbalism, holistic medicine and weird medicine.
<James> It's a new concept on me -- but sounds interesting.
<Lucas> That's what I'm doing, Robert.
<Crista> Okay, Idon't have an excuse NOT to write Emara's book now... I know one twisted little character is going to be VERY happy... <g>
<Damon> i have a friend who knows a lot about 12th century medicine....
<Kaelle> Yes, interesting
<Lucas> Alchemy had some very strange ideas.
<Sarah> I have one wanting to write itself, but it's on hold till a) I get the books I need , and b) Kichani is done.
<Sarah> I can't remember seeing any written before...
<Robert> Chinese medicine could be mined.
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of a book about a fantasy character like a Paracelsus -- alchemy, medicine, magic -- that would be cool to read for me.
<Izunya> The nearest I can think of involves certain points in the Saint-Germain series; since the character has been around since forever, he knows a lot of medical secrets that have been forgotten.
<Kaelle> Yes it would. <nodding at Lucas>
<Robert> I'd read it. It would be cool.
<@SLViehl> A lot of modern medicine came from herbalist cures
<Robert> Clan of the Cave Bear series has practically an herbal in it.
<Izunya> (involves certain points . . . gah. My brain is slowly shutting down.
<@SLViehl> Cris Feehan has a vamp healer too, if I remember correctly.
<Robert> But it's not fantasy and how the magic works would affect it. And that would get immersive.
<@SLViehl> There you go, Robert. Ayla was a great healer character
<Lucas> Ok, so it looks like it is mostly open ground then. Very interesting.
<Robert> Without ever getting modern, the medical stuff was sound.
<@SLViehl> Well, folks, any last
last questions?
<Kaelle> lol
<Jinx> There were the healers in the Deryni series, too, although the series didn't revolve around them in particular.
<Izunya> Yes, definitely CotCB. Not fantasy, but a lot of herbalism and some mysticism.
<James> I'm tapped for questions. But it's mid-afternoon now, and the heat's making me dopy.
<Lucas> A few of Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books had healers as characters, but didn't focus on that a whole lot.
<Damon> anyone going over to Cato's?
<Izunya> I'm out of questions for the night, I think.
<Jinx> Sheila, thank you, once again.
<Robert> I am. And I'm trying not to keep poor Sheila up. Last question, how you doing?
<Kaelle> I'm done for now, Thanks for a great session, Sheila.
<Lucas> I guess it's time to call it night for me.
<Crista> i don't have any more questions. Just fingers itching to begin playing at outlining.
<@SLViehl> Thank you all for letting me spend another interesting Friday night with you. I enjoyed it immensely
<James> It was particular fun tonight, I thought. Thanks again.
<Sarah> Robert> Have you looked at the posting times in Sheila's blog?
<Lucas> James, just what country are you in, anyway?
<@SLViehl> Doing fine, Robert.
<Izunya> Thanks, Sheila. I bounced in and out a lot, but it was my computer objecting, not me.
<Kaelle> When I finally got posts on the screen to read, it was better.
<James> North Queensland, Australia
<Lucas> Ok, I was beginning to suspect something like that.
<Robert> Thank you, Sheila. These are so great.
<Damon> TY SLV