<Bklyn> I think i developed my story goal: Earth wants to regain control of Eden. Eden wants to claim sovereignity. the Mandoorians want to return to space.
<Sarah> I'm about half a page away from finishing the twisted fantasy.
<Bklyn> These are the three main character/entities
<Bklyn> Hi Gayle
<Robert> Oooh I am almost late, dang!
<Gayle> Evening all
<Bklyn> Hi Robert
<Sarah> Hey Gayle, Hey robert!
<@SLViehl> Hi Gayle and Robert! Gayle, you're #3, Robert, you're #4 (in order of asking writing-related questions)
<Jinx> Evening!
<Sarah> Ooh, yay! They're going to fix my name and genre on the ad astra site!
<Robert> Purr purr, thankx.
<Jehane> Hi everyone
<Robert> I am scribing too as usual.
<@SLViehl> Hey Jinx -- you're #5 on the writing questions list
<Robert> Purr, hi Jehane
<@SLViehl> Hi Jehane, you're #6.
<Jinx> Thank you. I guess that means I have to think tonight. ;-D
<@SLViehl> I'm keeping a list here so don't worry, I'll keep everyone straight.
<Robert> Love the graphic for it. That speaks volumes.
<@SLViehl> We just want you to stay online, Jinx. Anything else is a bonus.
<Robert> Villain moves in. What a twist. Villain is your roommate.
<Jehane> I'm just sneaking in while I'm at work, so I'll just hide up the back here.
<@SLViehl> Hi Kae, you're #7 on the writing-questions list.
<Kaelle> Hi everyone!
<Robert> She has a little listt, we never would be missed (except if you've got a crossbow)
<@SLViehl> I'm taking names tonight. lol. Hey BJ, nice to see you!
<Sarah> Ooh, I wrote a list song for my floor in second year and was alienated from then on, cause nobody got it and they all thought I wanted them dead. <sigh>
<@SLViehl> BJ is #8 on the writing-questions list.
<Gayle> sorry about my inattentiveness...minor discussion going on here about movies and lost thereof
<BJ Steeves> Tanks Sheila...Good Evening All!
<@SLViehl> No problem, Gayle.
<@SLViehl> Tanks, oh yeah, lol
<@SLViehl> Blair! (Blair was the inspiration for tonight's graphic. I ripped off one of his ideas.)
<BJ Steeves> You know me, I just have to a couple of those in!
<BJ Steeves> You know me, I just have to a couple of those in!
<Gayle> grrrrr....preteens!!!
<Blair> hello
<Robert> Bad boys, bad boys, whatchoo gonna doo...
<Blair> nice fishy tank by the way <G>
<@SLViehl> Not as good as yours was, but at least they
look like fish.
<@SLViehl> Preteens are the reason God created time out.
<Blair> and proozak
<@SLViehl> and Godiva chocolate.
<Sarah> Ooh, chocolate...
<Robert> I always thought they should have put Lady Godiva on the box.
<@SLViehl> That's my next job. If I totally flop as a novelist, I want to be the quality control manager at Godiva chocolates.
<@SLViehl> it's a dirty job but someone has to make sure those little seashells are worth forty bucks a box.
<Kaelle> <drooling>
<@SLViehl> Hey James
<Sarah> Lol!
<James> Evening all
<@SLViehl> James, you're #10 on the writing-related questions list.
<James> There's a list? Do I win anything?
<@SLViehl> This is like a deli, everybody gets a number.
<BJ Steeves> Believe it or not, I don't like chocolate.
<James> But do we get a sausage?
<Blair> ever read the book 'the lottery?'
<@SLViehl> Hi Lucas, welcome
<Bklyn> Sheila is the Soup Nazi! LOL follow the rules or No More Soup for You
<@SLViehl> Lucas is #11 on the writing related list.
<Lucas> Hi. How exciting, a "prototype" workshop!
<@SLViehl> Yep. I'm experimenting on you poor people again.
<Sarah> Brb -- case worker calling.
<@SLViehl> There you go. I always wanted to be a Soup Nazi.
<@SLViehl> No slurping, or else!
<@SLViehl> Jinx, are you still with us? This could be a record.
<Jinx> Yes!
<Gayle> brb...
<Robert> I like the 'do it yourself topic' idea...
<@SLViehl> One day I'm just going to go over Jinx's house and sit there for two hours, to make up for all the times she's gotten bumped off line.
<Jinx> LOL! You'd be most welcome. <g>
<@SLViehl> We should all go. lol
<James> Oh no, what if the god of disconnects takes that as a temptation, and starts disconnecting her from real life?
<Robert> Yeah, that would be fun!
<@SLViehl> Just how big is your livingroom, Jinx?
<Lucas> Whee! A party.
<Sarah> YES!
<Jinx> Big enough!
<Sarah> My account is unfrozen!
<Jinx> I'm sure my husband wouldn't mind... <glances>
<Blair> yes, but do you have enought computers?
<@SLViehl> All right. First HollyLisle.com writer's retreat is at Jinx's house.
<Robert> We need plenty of duct tape to make sure she stays in our spacetime continuum.
<Kaelle> lol
<@SLViehl> (high five to Sarah)
<Blair> i wonder... if we are all there... will she just 'drop' out of the house?
<@SLViehl> lol Blair
<Blair> 'where did jinx go? oh, she's at the front door...she can't get back in'
<Lucas> As long as we don't all wander of individually to look for her so as to be easier for monsters to pick off...
<Sarah> <g> They had to up my overdraft by a couple thousand dollars, since they can't undo the damage until I send them a signed and notarized document stating that those weren't my purchases... but I can get money again!
<Robert> rofl Blair
<Jinx> LOL. I wouldn't be surprised, either.
<@SLViehl> Hey it's our NEW Publicity Director!
<Kaelle> yay
<Kaelle> congrats
<James> Hi Anne
<Robert> Cool! Yayy, congratulations!
<Sarah> Hi Anne!
<Sarah> Hi Anne!
<Blair> <clapping>
<Anne_Marble> Howdy! Let me tell you about a wonderful writing site... ;->
<Sarah> <g> Thanks!
<Lucas> Hah-ho. <g>
<BJ Steeves> Way to go Anne
<@SLViehl> Anne, you're #12 on the writing-related questions list. We're handing out numbers like a deli.
<Anne_Marble> I just got back from the bookstore, doing my civic duty and buying some books by new authors.
<Anne_Marble> I want the hard salami...
<Kaelle> So what food did you pick up along the way, Anne?
<Gayle> I'm back...we 'kissed' and made up
<Robert> Swiss cheese for main characters' brains...
<Anon_66> I'm here! With Chinese food!
<Robert> Purr Gayle
<Robert> Ooh purr that Chinese food eater!
<Crista> That was me.
<Anne_Marble> I ran late, so I'm finishing last night's Johnsonville Honey & Maple Something breakfast sausages
<James> Hello, Gayle
<@SLViehl> Hiya Crista -- you're #14 on the writing-related questions list. We're doing numbers like a deli, and I'm skipping 13. lol
<Kaelle> Maple Something...haven't heard of that flavor.
<Robert> Oy, you with the really good breakfast food, Anne... you seduced me with Magic Stars...
<Lucas> Ahh, sugarfied meat whatchamacallits.
<Crista> Oh, okay. Thanks, Sheila.
<James> And hello Crista
<Lucas> A famous flavor.
<Crista> Hi, James!
<Robert> They go with Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs real well.
<Gayle> Hey James
<@SLViehl> If anyone wants to go for a quick beverage/bathroom/whatever break, go now
<Crista> <drools> Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs...
<Anne_Marble> BRB
<Blair> <runs>
<@SLViehl> I'm going to give us another minute then get started. Hi Izunya
<James> Hi Izunya
<@SLViehl> Izunya, you're #15 on the writing-related questions list, we're handing out numbers like a deli.
<Jinx> I don't know what Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs are, but I'm sure I'd like them since they contain the magic ingredient.
<Kaelle> chocolate~
<Robert> Except she skipped #13 reserving that for the black cats.
<@SLViehl> 13 is for Cato.
<Jinx> Exactly, Kaelle!
<Anne_Marble> Phew. Puff puff puff.
<Izunya> Okay.
<Crista> Exactly, Jinx. if it has chocolate and/or barbecue sauce, I'll eat it.
<Izunya> Hi, everyone.
<Robert> Eeep! I didn't know Cato was a black cat. Oh well. Guess that's his only good point.
<Lucas> Uh-oh. Now what if it gets to #13 and Cato actually asks a question?
<Blair> run
<@SLViehl> We'll all totally freak out, Lucas
<James> Oh, I don't know about chocolate being unruinable -- did anyone see Nigella Lawson's deep fried battered chocolate bar recipe?
<Izunya> We answer it. Politely. And back away.
<@SLViehl> But we'd better get started. Welcome to the First Writer's Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. Viehl
<@SLViehl> Basically, we're here to collaborate and work out real problems with our past, present, or future writing projects.
<@SLViehl> Everyone's been assigned a numbe, and that's how we'll go in order. I've got the list, so I'll keep track of that.
<@SLViehl> numbe=number
<@SLViehl> When it's your turn, throw out any question to the group, and we'll discuss it, offer suggestions, or whatever
<@SLViehl> I'll be keeping tracking of time, and it looks like everyone will get about five minutes of discussion time. Ready to go?
<James> Yep!
<Robert> Sure
<Jinx> Ready!
<Kaelle> ok
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<Crista> Let's go.
<Sarah> Yup
<Izunya> Yes.
<Blair #9> yuppers
<Gayle & Nathan> Yes
<Lucas> Ready to rumble.
<@SLViehl> Deb (Bklyn) is our very first victim. Deb, you're up, go ahead.
<BJ Steeves> Ready to dive in!
<Bklyn> ok i'm in the middle of my november novel...started with no planning, no outline...and now i'm stuck! how do i unstick myself?
<Robert> Look at the pace you've got and see if this is a good point to give the plot a MAJOR twist or just a little twist. Bring in a character who's a monkeywrench.
<@SLViehl> What's making you stick the most? The progression of the story?
<Izunya> How are you stuck? Written yourself into a corner, or don't care where on earth the novel goes?
<Crista> Why do you think you are stuck, deb?
<Bklyn> ok i just killed someone, but then now what. that was pretty exciting and now everything seems pretty mundane
<James> Yes, I'd like more info -- where are you stuck, exactly? What's happening, and how is it refusing to progress?
<Lucas> You're having trouble escalating things?
<Anne_Marble> Could you sit down and write possible outcomes without worrying about making it perfect, just to see what comes up?
<Robert> What if someone new to the book really cared about the person who died and takes things in their own hands?
<Crista> You might want show some reaction to that. And then start setting up the next big, exciting event..
<James> What are the consequences of the killing for the character who did it?
<@SLViehl> Have someone enter the story who's really ticked off about the guy who just got killed. Revenge is always good to move things.
<Kaelle> What are the consequences of killing that someone?
<Sarah> Or a previous character undergoes a radical personality shift as a result.
<James> Who actually committed the killing, and why?
<Lucas> As a generic suggestion, you could try writing an outline, based on what you have, and then continue it beyond your current position to see where it might lead. It can't be too late to do a little planning.
<@SLViehl> Good one, Sarah
<Bklyn> he was killed because he is an alien. the hate group that killed him is a front for a govt agency
<@SLViehl> Oh, I'd bring in more aliens. Really ticked off aliens. <g>
<Izunya> If I were you, I'd start with looking at who gets hurt most by the death, figure out what they might do about it (perhaps something rash and plot-escalating) and see what happens with that.
<Sarah> One of the agents objects to it and goes rogue.
<Robert> Maybe another alien's terrified he's next and panics and causes a lot of trouble blatting that as a conspiracy theory.
<Sarah> One of the agents wants more killing and goes rogue.
<Bklyn> the gov't wants to regain control of eden
<Lucas> You could let one of the hate group people lose his nerve and try to get out, thus making enemies of all his old pals.
<Sarah> The alien's hybrid human love child wants revenge.
<Anne_Marble> Does everyone know who did the killing? The revelation of the involvement of the group could be a plot twist. Even more, the revelation that someone else was killing the strings...
<Anne_Marble> pulling the strings!!! :->
<Blair #9> or one of the agents discovers a personal connection to the aliens, and wants to 'right' his wrong.
<Robert> The person spilling the beans has lousy facts and is very disbelievable unless killed.
<Sarah> one of the agents is the mother of the hybrid love child....
<@SLViehl> Time -- any final comments for Deb?
<Lucas> What position is the main character in?
<Bklyn> she is supposed to solve the crime
<Izunya> I'd look at the dead alien's connection, both long-term and short-term, to see who is under the most stress. Stress is good.
<@SLViehl> I'd have the crime backlash on the investigator -- have her dragged into a hush-up
<Lucas> She could have to join the hate group for some obscure reason. Mechanic problems of accomplishing it aside, that would be a strange twist.
<James> I'd also look at giving the character a personal motivation for solving the crime -- something in her past that relates, that resonates with what happened, such as an event giving her a strong like or dislike of aliens.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all. Sarah, you're up now
<@SLViehl> And FYI to everyone -- I will call time and move on so everyone has a chance. If you want to discuss more, we can meet in Chat after the session.
<Sarah> Mine's more generic -- I tend to have a lot of trouble ending stories, especially shorts. Either the characters just keep on talking and I can't shut them up, or I end up with a "tympani ending" (big, cheesy, overdone -- think of the score at the end of E.T.)
<Sarah> Actually, I think it was the E.T. read-along storybook that got the whole tympani ending thing stuck in my head in the first place...
<Lucas> Isn't a big ending only overdone if there isn't sufficient lead-up?
<Robert> Yeah, if tympani endings are satisfying resolutions, they're cool.
<Crista> I don't understand what you mean by an overdone ending...
<Sarah> Big is okay, but cheesy isn't.
<@SLViehl> I like a future-goal ending -- where the characters are facing the next thing.
<@SLViehl> Too dramatic, Crista -- like the entire universe has been saved by the resolution (am I right, Sarah?)
<Jehane> I like somewhat ambiguous endings, where they might win the battle, but there's still the rest of the war ahead of them.
<Sarah> Kind of like "they saved the word, and they all lived happily ever after". Yeah, pretty much.
<Crista> Oh.
<Robert> In the rewrite, identify the main conflict and in a one line description, figure out what the resolution is. Then trim some of the verbiage between or after the real resolution - for the ones where they chatter.
<@SLViehl> good point, Jehane -- also leaves a door open for future incarnations
<Anne_Marble> Maybe some things could have an easy resolutions but others could be resolved tragically. No pretty bows.
<Robert> Or you could try writing backwards like a mystery writer from a known resolution to the beginning. Choosing your type of ending first.
<James> Or striking a note on what the character wanted most at the story's beginning: if the story starts with her fear of leaving the house, end with her gazing across an open plain to the horizon, if you see what I mean.
<@SLViehl> I always seem to move my characters into an end transition point -- they're always getting ready to go somewhere when I leave off
<Izunya> For a few pieces where it's appropriate, you might think about your ride-into-the-sunset ending. You know, spaceship flies off, hero/ine rides down the mountain toward the town, something where we see sort of moving out of the story.
<@SLViehl> That's an neat method, Robert
<@SLViehl> Izunya
<Lucas> It might help to intensify the personal stakes so that you can have a lot of tension, but everything is by no mean "all ok" by the end of the story.
<@SLViehl> is reading my mind tonight.
<Izunya>
<Lucas> That way it wouldn't tie up everything in the known univers.
<Sarah> Half the time, I know how to resolve it, it's just the actual termination point I can't find. Like I know about how much story thread I have, but I can't find the right place to cut it.
<@SLViehl> Moving on is a good end point
<Robert> There's also the 'back where we started, broke again looking for a bar in Lankhmar with a babe'
<Robert> good for series characters
<@SLViehl> I like ending on a big revelation, too, but they're harder to plan.
<BJ Steeves> Try treating any actions like the law of consevation, or Newton's Law. Every action has a reaction. Every decision brings a price.
<Lucas> After the biggest problem has been solved (wheather or not another is revealed...) is usually where a story ends.
<Sarah> I love circular narratives because they tell me exactly where to stop, but you can only write so many of those...
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments or suggestions for Sarah?
<Robert> Try a lot of different ending types with 'write backwards"
<James> Maybe Robert's suggestion is the way to go then, Sarah, writing the final scene and moving backwards until you meet the scenes you've already written.
<@SLViehl> Good point, BJ
<Izunya> I sometimes force myself to treat endings like beginnings; you have to write
just the story, and put the endpoints as close to the climax as feasible.
<Anne_Marble> Go Toronto Raptors?
<Izunya> Saves me from rambling.
<@SLViehl> Endings can be as hard to write as beginning.
<@SLViehl> Okay, now we'll move on -- Gayle, you're up.
<Gayle & Nathan> I've told Nathan he could have my question tonight...he wants to know how to transition from "naration to dialogue"
<Robert> Just start the dialogue with a good line and let the characters do it.
<James> I agree with Robert, wade in with a good line of dialogue and no one will notice the transition.
<Anne_Marble> Sometimes you can use a line of action (Like "Robert aimed the Cat Gun at Batman") and then follow with Robert's dialogue. ("Bwah hah hah")
<Robert> Scene cut is what I mean. Like in a movie, a scene cut. He saw her yada yada, they talked about the weather. "What do you mean the world's going to explode?"
<@SLViehl> You can use the last line of the narration as an into to the dialogue, i.e. "I was working night shift, when Dr. James showed up, drunk and in no shape to operate. "Nurse Ratchett!" he yelled across the ward. "Get me this patient's chart!"
<Lucas> Shiela, I think it might be a good idea if, in the rules for this workshop, you told people to prepare several lines of text stating their problem
before the workshop begins.
<Anne_Marble> And don't be afraid to use the word "said"! :->
<@SLViehl> Thanks for the suggestion, Lucas. Good idea.
<Izunya> What Anne said.
<Crista> Said is not a bad word.
<James> I'm fond of juxtaposing thought and dialogue: I hate him, she thought. "Fred, darling, I'm so glad to see you!"
<@SLViehl> Nice whammy for the reader when you do that, James.
<Robert> Start the dialogue when the conflict starts.
<Kaelle> A lot of info in James' example, lol
<Lucas> You could have someone do something, undertake some action, that would naturall elicit a comment.
<James> And you can adapt it to show a variety of the character's characteristics, beyond a slight dishonesty, I mean.
<Robert> Oh yeah, that's brilliant because that's internal dialogue and external in the same paragraph. That is start of dialogue and a three way argument.
<Izunya> I don't think you need any material that screams, "This is a transition." Just end what you need to say in narration, and leap right into the dialogue.
<Anne_Marble> I once read a great bit about dialogue in a writing book. He said the best dialogue does not include a lot of "direct responses."Dialogue with a direct response: "What do you want for dinner?" "Chicken."
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Nathan?
<Anne_Marble> Indirect response; "What do you want for dinner?" "Don't you know by now?" (Something like that)
<James> Gather examples from your favourite books, and try to work out why you like the way that author did it, then try doing it yourself.
<Robert> That works for straightforward characters, not like James's - let the characters do the talking, Nathan. That's when it comes good.
<Izunya> Simple is good.
<@SLViehl> Okay, next victim -- Robert, you're up.
<Lucas> I agree with Izunya. There isn't a lot to be done to go from narration to talking. You just let people start talking after you've described what needs to be described.
<Gayle & Nathan> Thanks
<Robert> I'm having trouble moving at my usual speed on Nomad Novel. I keep having trouble switching gears from that project to writing short stories and editing and other activities.
<Robert> Usually I write really fast and at my best if I immerse in one project Sentence One to The End. What are suggestions to shorten my warm up time and get more done?
<James> Start with the Nomad novel on any given day?
<@SLViehl> Stagger your projects by days. Let Monday be novel writing day
<James> I mean, that way you're not switching gears to it.
<Robert> Yeah, the start of a Book in a Week that I'm not going to make.
<Izunya> When you leave the project at night, have some idea of what you want to write come morning.
<Kaelle> ditto Izunya: leave notes to yourself on what you want to do next.
<James> Oh yes, the technique where you always end in the middle of something that you know exactly how you're going to finish. "He drew the gun and..." end for the day.
<@SLViehl> Plan out your writing schedule -- give yourself am organized list of goals, and assign times/days. I really think days, as you're spread out over a lot of projects.
<BJ Steeves> Sort of like a reward. "I can't wait to write that next scene!"
<@SLViehl> Nice motivator, James
<Sarah> I spend my walks home from work (or wherever I am) planning out what I intend to do when I get back to my computer, and then sit down and do it. Or, when I'm trying to get to sleep, work out what's going to happen for the next day. That way, I'm all worked up to do it.
<James> I've seen that recommended all over the place.
<Crista> I like Sarah's suggestion. that is sort of what I do.
<Anne_Marble> If you finish a scene, you get to play with Ari. :->
<Izunya> BJ: Not only that. It saves you from having to start the morning's writing (or the lunch-time's writing, if you keep the kind of schedule I sometimes want to) without staring blankly at a page for fifteen minutes with no idea what should go on it.
<@SLViehl> The dangling carrot tactic!
<James> Oh, Sarah, if I start plotting as I'm falling asleep, I get into it and end up staying awake all night!
<Gayle & Nathan> Sarah's suggestion is simular to what I do for my fiction
<Sarah> I fall asleep and dream about it sometimes. Makes for weird dreams.
<Sarah> But some of the best plot twists come that way.
<Robert> Maybe if I schedule all the
other projects but keep a line on the WIP, I can keep trying to get back into it.
<@SLViehl> Same here. Technicolor bizarre dreams.
<Izunya> I wish my dreams had plot twists that made more sense. Then I could write them.
<Robert> Whenever they do, I wake up and write them.
<Jehane> I have more than one work open so I can work on whichever I have ideas for at any time
<Robert> They're usuall y novel openers right from the undermind.
<Lucas> I agree, thinking of something to look forward to is helpful. If I'm not sure about working, I can usually look at my outline and get interested by thinking about how fun it's going to be to get to scene X.
<Jehane> Maybe you could have the novel going in the backgound while working on other stuff
<@SLViehl> That's pretty much what I do, Jehane, unless I'm under deadline. Then I force it.
<Izunya> I get settings and characters, but rarely do I get any plot help from my dreams.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Robert?
<Jehane> who's next?
<@SLViehl> Okay, Jinx, you're up
<Jinx> In my story, I have a magic that can be manipulated via dancing. The dancing requires certain movements that can be taught to anyone, although not everyone is successful at wielding magic with their dancing. What I've not quite got down is exactly how the magic works. I'd love to hear everyone's ideas to get me going in the right direction.
<@SLViehl> Jinx is PREPARED.
<@SLViehl> Jehane, you're next, btw
<Izunya> Neat! Okay . . .
<Jinx> I was just scared I'd crash before I could get that out! <g>
<James> It's got to be in the movement -- how about lines of force that infiltrate the whole cosmos. As the magician's body parts move, they cross or vibrate the lines of force, creating the magical result?
<@SLViehl> Dancing that invokes magic -- that's got native american all over it.
<Robert> How passionate a dancer is about the music, the ability to lose self in the dance is one of the key elements necessary to magic. Technical perfection won't do it. How's that sound?
<Lucas> Maybe the mental image of the positions and moves is more necessary than the physical moves, so the person who can visualize the steps better will be more adept than a better dancer.
<Izunya> If not everyone is successful when using movements that can be taught to everyone, then there must be some quality there that isn't in the movements. So, individual people have a something-mana, Hawaiian style, or something-that makes it work for them.
<Robert> Endurance dancing is also like meditation. It's a frame of mind attained.
<Sarah> I have a story like that, and when the MC is taken on as the dancer/priestess's apprentice, she's able to see the lines of "power" (for lack of a better word) that the dancer is actually connecting and pulling into place through the motions of the dance.
<Blair #9> maybe it has to do with the connection between the mind and the body.... a certain vibe or rhythm triggers certain reactions
<@SLViehl> drawing spirits to the dancer by ritual movements, invoking the spirit's powers on the dancer's behalf. How well they perform the dance, like an incantation, determines the effectiveness of the magic
<Gayle & Nathan> subconsciencely humming the music while they're dancing...
<Anne_Marble> There are musicians who can play the music perfectly and still be dull, and there are some who give the music life. Could dancing be the same?
<@SLViehl> accompanying music or chanting is great, too -- good point, Gayle
<James> The Creator God is a spider: the universe is her web. Spiders interpret different vibrations on different parts of their web differently, so dancing to vibrate the cosmic web is like a prayer to the spider god.
<Gayle & Nathan> Some people do it naturally and they work the magic
<Blair #9> maybe the steps create a pattern on the floor... like symbols
<Lucas> You could make the magic's potency dependent how much the person actually enjoys the activity.
<BJ Steeves> Interpretation of the music and the movements may be a key.
<@SLViehl> I like the web thing, James. Spooky
<Lucas> Someone who only tolerated it for the power it granted wouldn't be able to do it.
<Robert> Maybe the dancers with magic perceive the magic the way deaf dancers hear music - with their bodies, with their feet, like a spider dancing on her web.
<James> I have a spooky mind
<Izunya> Dancing could be used to evoke things by imitating them. For example, you could imitate a storm, and summon one . . .
<Jinx> This is all great stuff! <sits back and reads>
<Sarah> OOh, yeah, in "The Red Shoes", I had Kate open a gateway to the faerie realm by dancing a knotwork pattern into the grass...
<@SLViehl> power lines running through the world instead of web strands
<Robert> But they're not seen, they're felt if you trance enough. Felt like touching them with your feet and holding balance.
<Kaelle> Like ley lines in the air instead of in the ground.
<BJ Steeves> The local utility company may complain though
<Izunya> Maybe the world was
danced into being, and so dancing is the language it still responds to.
<Gayle & Nathan> many fantasty stories use the power lines...it's a 'known
<James> And sometimes dreadful things get stuck in webs...
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Jinx?
<Robert> A powerful dancer mends the creator's web.
<Robert> An evil one tears it.
<@SLViehl> And then you have the really intense character who adds to the web . . .
<Jinx> Thank you, everyone. I've got some neat things to think about now!
<BJ Steeves> Or strtched it too far...
<@SLViehl> Okay, Jehane's turn (Kaelle, you're next) -- Jehane, you're up.
<Jehane> I have the opposite problem to Sarah. I'm working on a short story at the moment but keep adding too much into the beginning. This isn't too bad since it's going to be an extract from a larger work, but I can't seem to find the right amount of background for a short story.
<@SLViehl> Pick the three most important aspects of your background and dump the rest.
<James> Apply The Test to every line: does this story make sense if I delete this line.
<Robert> Trim it out in the rewrite, let it get as long as it wants in the rough. Zette and I both overwrite that way, she talks about it.
<Lucas> Maybe you want only the things that can be kept without noticeable exposition to convey them.
<@SLViehl> I'm brutal about backstory, especially in short stories, because you're got wordcount limits.
<Robert> I sometimes do redundant exposition in rough, finding the second or third repetition is the nice tight keeper one.
<@SLViehl> Combine any elements you can, Jehane.
<Lucas> That would force you to keep only non-bulky things, and to really streamline what you do have.
<Crista> I'd say keep it in the rough and then go through while revising and figure out what is necessary and what is not.
<Izunya> You could write it assuming that all the backstory is known, and then add in a bare minimum of selected elements in the rewrite.
<@SLViehl> And concentrate on what really enhances the story and/or moves the reader, as far as setting and description. They can also drag your pacing down.
<Sarah> Put only what the reader needs to know into the beginning, and work the rest in as teasers in the story proper. "The gargoyles on the ramparts sent chills chasing down her spine, and she drew her sword. The metal in her hand no longer quivered with life, but it comforted nonetheless." is all the reader get of Aren's history with her sword.
<Robert> Like I'll explain it in the narration and some character will refer to it and boil all that down to a line.
<@SLViehl> Working some of the detail into dialogue is good, as long as you avoid the info dump variety
<Lucas> Sometimes a lot can be understood if you just write like everyone already knows what's going on.
<James> I've also seen it suggested (and done it a couple of times successfullyish) that you write the story then delete the first page and reread to see if the story makes sense -- it really makes you focus on what's important in the beginning.
<Robert> Ari does that for me all the time, it's why I call him my editor.
<@SLViehl> That sounds a bit like write the novel then delete the first three chapters.
<Izunya> James: I've had a story where I ended up deleting the first three pages. I think it worked pretty well.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Jehane?
<Robert> Promise yourself to write a different story using that world if you have a burning need to tell the backstory that's not needed.
<Jehane> thanks people
<James> Again, I agree with Robert, if you're not sure, put it all in and rewrite when you're finished.
<@SLViehl> Kaelle is up now, then we'll take a five minute break (BJ, you'll be up after the break)
<Kaelle> My MC is on another continent on a rescue mission. She finds out her magic doesn t work the same as it does at home. Does it sound okay or hokey to have a figurine she buys be the link to using her magic in the new land? The figurine has ties to the mystery of the old magic, I figure, which she ll encounter on her mission.
<Crista> Sort of like a talisman? I don't see that as hokey at all.
<@SLViehl> It's a talisman or a focus for her power. Maybe a conduit?
<Robert> Sounds like it works. To me hokey is in how it's told, not what it is.
<Kaelle> yes, like a conduit
<@SLViehl> Crista, stop mind-melding with me. lol
<Crista> lol
<joela> Sounds good. Will add an interesting mystery to the story, SLViehl.
<@SLViehl> Hey Joel.
<joela> oops! sorry. for kaelle!
<Sarah> But don't let it be easy. No "Oh, I pick this up and away I go." She has to sacrifice something in order to be able to use it.
<joela> Evening, Ms. Viehl.
<@SLViehl> And it has to cost her.
<joela> oops! sheila!
<@SLViehl> (smacking Joel)
<Robert> Maybe a little more each time. Feed Me, Seymour~!
<Gayle> definitely has to cost her
<Kaelle> Well, she has problems using her magic the way she already knows, and has problems using it on the new land.
<Crista> Also, you can show how it works as your MC has to discover how to adapt her magic to it. That sounds interesting.
<Izunya> I could buy it, I think. The only problem would be if it looked to me like the twists had no point.
<@SLViehl> Kae, if she loses the figurine, does she lose a portion of her power?
<James> It does seem to me you'll need to consider why magic is different on the two continents, and how magic works for the world overall, then tie the reason the figurine works into that, so it seems to grow naturally from your background.
<@SLViehl> I'd have it be like Samson's hair.
<joela> it would be interesting if she can only use the figurine if she's forced to change herself in some way: i.e., personality shift.
<@SLViehl> Or by using it too often, it loses its effectiveness
<Gayle> or maybe the using the figurine draws her into the darker sides of magic
<Gayle> ?
<Anne_Marble> Do you read C.S. Friedman's Coldfire series? Magic only worked if they sacrificed something of value. At the end, it changed -- they had to sacrifice something valuable to themselves (like their life or health).
<Izunya> I mean, I don't want to start wondering, "Okay, so why not just write it the simple way and have her magic work normally?" I'd want to start thinking, "Okay, what's the deal here? Does the magic come from elsewhere? Has someone done something to it? Etc."
<@SLViehl> Nice twist, Gayle
<Sarah> Or she becomes addicted to it, like a drug, since it's different from her own kind of magic.
<Sarah> And then loses it.
<joela> or the item because sentient?
<@SLViehl> Izunya's got a point -- the Ocam's razor thing.
<James> Or using the figuring draws the attention of its maker or original owner, and not in a nice way...
<BJ Steeves> OR it becomes harder each time to use.
<Kaelle> Ah, James, along the lines of what I was thinking.
<Izunya> I'd want it to pay out in a plot kind of way. Otherwise I'd feel a little bit cheated.
<Lucas> Or it only lets her use magic when it benifits itself.
<James> Or maybe the figuring is what you end up becoming after a few too man uses?
<Blair #9> or the talisman draws the magic from her, slowly taking control. She would have to limit how she used it
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Kaelle?
<Robert> It changes her every time she uses it and she has to get more mystical and unworldly every time.
<James> too man being too many, of course.
<Sarah> Good one James!
<@SLViehl> Man uses. Lol, James
<Izunya> The item doesn't have to be malevolent for it to be unsettling to her and difficult to use.
<Robert> Actually that fits with mine if by the time she did, she didn't care any mroe!
<@SLViehl> Okay, we're going to take five VERY well deserved minutes of break here.
<Kaelle> Oooh, good suggestions, everyone. Thanks!
<Izunya> Oddness can be as disconcerting as evil.
<Lucas> A magic talisman with its own ends (good or bad), that only provides magic if it thinks its for its own good. So she never knows who's end she is serving.
<James> Ah, caffeine time! brb
<@SLViehl> brb, getting a chamomile infusion
<Izunya> I'll be right back.
<joela> night. spouse is calling
<Gayle> me too...brb
<Lucas> True Izunya, even being an tool for a good power would be "unsettling".
<Kaelle> Lucas, that's good too.
<Anne_Marble> Time for Law & Order SUV I mean SVU. And staring at Christopher Melloni.
<Kaelle> I liked him in the sitcom "The Fanelli Boys" (I think that was the name)
<Lucas> What number were we up to? So I know how we're progressing...
<Kaelle> I was #7
<Anne_Marble> All I know is that BJ is next.
<BJ Steeves> 7 down
<Robert> It's moving real fast, I thought seven or eightt.
<Lucas> Ok.
<Izunya> I'm back.
<@SLViehl> List of people to be served, as follows:
<@SLViehl> BJ, Blair, James, Lucas, Anne, Crista, Izunya, and Joel if he comes back.
<@SLViehl> In that order.
<@SLViehl> Sorry for the confusion, this is the test run to see how it works, folks.
<Lucas> Everything seems to be running smoothly so far.
<Kaelle> Maybe if we put our number in after our names like Blair did?
<Robert> So far it's working great. I got lots of good suggestions and everyone else's are stimulating that nomad novel!
<@SLViehl> Excellent idea, Kae
<@SLViehl> What I like is the energy. You guys are burning up the screen
<Kaelle> I was having trouble reading them as fast as they came in. When I went to answer there was another to read.
<Robert> Yeah, and even unrelated things like 'laws of magic' are making me think about the situation on the ship and ways I can screw over the crew.
<Lucas> We'll have to install heat-sinks on our monitors at this rate.
<@SLViehl> I'll definitely be posting a transcript tonight, in case anyone missed anything.
<Robert> I'll mail you mine ASAP - whoops good time to switch files!
<@SLViehl> brb, kettle's whistling
<Izunya> Transcript is good. Transcript is very good. As Kaelle said, the text was sort of bouncing up the screen in bits.
<BJ Steeves> I have a current one.
<Robert> I've got it from the moment I came in and I even managed to grab caffeine in the intermission.
<@SLViehl> Okay, is everyone back and fluidated?
<James> Yep.
<Izunya> Yup.
<Kaelle> <burble> yes
<Anne_Marble> Yuppers
<Robert> Yes, fluidated and caffeinated!
<Jinx> I'm here. Tonight may be a banner night for me.
<Lucas> Ready.
<@SLViehl> Here we go -- BJ, you're up
<Sarah> Yup.
<Crista> Back with soda. I'm still trying to eat my way through the chinese food.
<BJ Steeves> What is a reasonable number of characters to handle for a story at one time: How many Main Characters, Subordinate Characters, Background Charactors, etc.... And how do you keep track of them all?
<@SLViehl> Novel or short story?
<Robert> Depends on the length and how much depth to the characters.
<James> In five minutes? We'd better type fast
<Crista> Depends on the length.
<BJ Steeves> Novel, can never seem to keep them short.
<Robert> I had three in a 100 word flash story and it worked.
<James> The short answer is as many as you need and you can handle, I guess.
<Kaelle> Have you used either Holly's or Sheila's templates to track what you have?
<@SLViehl> I like between one to three MCs, and seven to ten supporting characters. About ten more background characters.
<James> I mean, it's going to be a very subjective number.
<Izunya> I can't answer the first one, but as for the second one, I keep lists. Lists with a few good descriptors and the main conflict that the character is looking at.
<Crista> I keep track of my characters by keeping a list and grouping them together logically, by family or group, whatever. then, if I need a detail, i look at the lists and either use on already there, or if it's not there, make it up. <g>
<Robert> I use RoughDraft and now instead of Cast LIst file, I use Pad to jot all the entrances next to their chapters for easy lookemup.
<Gayle> back
<Anne_Marble> I've heard that while typing the first draft, you can name the background characters after something silly (like types of cheese) -- that way, you can keep them straight for the time being and keep writing.
<@SLViehl> I think you'll find you'll write less about the less interesting characters, BJ, those would be good ones to drop if you think you have too many.
<@SLViehl> If you're running your characters around too much, you may need a few more to make an interesting mix
<Anne_Marble> Sometimes you can combine some characters.
<BJ Steeves> Good point Sheila
<Robert> And sometimes a background character only does this stagehog walk on for that scene and goes away giggling, it's weird.
<@SLViehl> good point Anne -- combine the ones who are otherwise weak or uninteresting
<Izunya> Note that there's a difference between a plain old character and a main character; you can have a story with a cast of thousands, empires rising and falling, and end up focusing on this one dude and his cat. For example.
<Crista> I do that, Anne.
<@SLViehl> Yeah, you don't want any cardboard characters. Think of them as tools --- how can you use them?
<BJ Steeves> Didn't think about that Anne, Thanks!
<Anne_Marble> After writing my third novel, I realized that I had three pairs of cops! I would forget myself and write new characters instead of using existing ones.
<@SLViehl> Characters should always serve
some purpose in a story.
<Robert> I always imagine I've got this long line of character actors in Central Casting all trying out for the book.
<Robert> And they'd love to get in even if they get shot in their scene.
<Crista> LOL, Robert.
<Kaelle> Red shirts, Robert
<BJ Steeves> Do you let them wear red shirts?
<@SLViehl> Robert's character casting couch. Now there's an image
<Robert> Sometimes they do to try to get attention - and those I cast, because they will not be nonentities int heir half page of dying, they will make reader feel something.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for BJ?
<Anne_Marble> Robert's character casting couch is covered with cat hair.
<Robert> hehehe, there's always my Emperor's harem. lol
<Izunya> If you know what the main, dramatic thrust of the story is . . . someone help me with proper writerly words here . . . if you know what it's *about,* you can pick the characters who have similar conflicts inside them. They'll generally be the most important.
<BJ Steeves> Many thanks All...Great help here!
<Robert> rofl, the only sex scene in Thrice was the cats, Anne
<@SLViehl> I think you mean theme or main conflict, Izunya. Okay, thanks al -- Blair, you're up.
<@SLViehl> al=all
<Izunya> Main conflict, most likely. Thanks.
<Blair #9> I'm having problems coming up with ways to make my bad guy REALLY bad... beyond torturing and killing people in horrible ways. Basically he's a 'mad scientist' kinda guy who aspires to dominate the known universe. He runs a large crime syndicate kinda thing to fund his operation, but I need to show him as being worse than he's becoming....any ideas
<Robert> Petty cruelty to the people who agree with him and think he's cool. Minor nastiness.
<Crista> My trick is to show the villain hurting those who care about him. That just sticks with me as beng really, really evil.
<Robert> Mind games on their heads and they still believe in him, control freak.
<@SLViehl> Have him manipulate people -- lie to them, gain their confidence, aid him in his quest -- then he slams them with betrayal when he's done using them.
<Sarah> Good one, Crista.
<Izunya> Well, he's a mad scientist, right? So get into the creepy side of his scientific, analytical self. Show that people and rats are absolutely no different to him. There's a character in Sheila's
Endurance who's really nasty like that.
<James> You can omit all emotional or emotion related words from his dialogue, his thoughts, and narration from his viewpoint. It gives an odd, emotional flatness to the text that makes the character feel sociopathic.
<Gayle> or killing them when he's done with them...
<@SLViehl> Have him care about someone, too -- you want every villain to have at least one minor good point. Then you give him depth. And it doesn't have to be a person, it can be a thing.
<Robert> Cheerfully rationalizing what he's doing as for their own good while he's hurting them, assuming they will agree.
<Izunya> As a scientist, maybe he cares about knowledge. Or truth.
<Lucas> He could cultivate enemies on purpose, because he has a complex that makes him feel inadequate unless he's squashing an enemy.
<Anne_Marble> When he kills people, he makes sure they live a while. Like he'll order a fink's head to be covered with plaster while he's alive.
<@SLViehl> That was my mad scientist's plus -- he was really into research to study other life forms. He just maimed and killed them to do so.
<James> If he does care about something, so the least aspect of what he likes being more important to him than the most significant aspect of what he doesn't. I mean, he likes cats, he has you beaten for moving the cat's hairbrush.
<Robert> And the insane idea that they will agree with him if only they understood science was a higher good is scary!
<@SLViehl> Or, give him a wonderful talent or gift, like the ability to play beautiful music or paint gorgeous art. Something in direct contrast with his villainous acts.
<Lucas> A good motive is always a point for a strange villian.
<James> oops, so should be show.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Blair?
<Blair #9> sweet...thanks guys
<Robert> The unintended positive effects of his research are poignant and tragic, like if Mengele had discovered a real cure for a disease.
<Izunya> Perhaps you could show him doing something truly vile to someone, and he's almost kind as he straps them in to be killed. Explains how they'll benefit the scientific world, bla-de-bla.
<@SLViehl> Okay, James, you're up (Lucas, you're next)
<James> A piece of technology has been stolen from my character. As he investigates, it's clear there's a conspiracy building around him. On the outside of town there's a new, large complex building a new but unrelated technology. Every reader's going to know (correctly), they're behind the conspiracy, so how do I obscure that, or do I need to obscure it?
<Blair #9> I would say my characters thank you... but you've just made things worse
<Lucas> What is the main character's goal?
<Robert> Obscure it with more details of other equally well hidden conspiracies that are red herrings.
<Lucas> Who cares if the tech is stolen?
<@SLViehl> You need a red herring, James. Something to make the reader assume it was [the red herring guys]
<James> Really, to get the technology back, but he uncovers worse as he investigates, then it becomes to topple the conspiracy.
<@SLViehl> Have the evident technology benign on the surface, could act as camoflauge
<James> No one but him and the conspiracy know the technology exists.
<Izunya> Well, does it need to be obscured? I mean, if he doesn't know what they're up to, uncovering the layers may be enough mystery.
<Robert> This is great stuff. Spooks attract spooks. Who else is investigating all this? ANy other spies in town, anyone he can discover is Massad-equivalent
<@SLViehl> Have the tech people offer their expertise to help him nail the offender -- that way, they can seed evidence and control his investigation
<Robert> Anyone else with something to hide that thinks his clue is a minor detail?
<James> There's actually half a dozen equally peculiar but powerful groups who could be up to something -- I wondered if the technologically sophisticated one is going to stand out no matter how suspicious the others look.
<BJ Steeves> Hide it in plain site, it a small agricultural college on the surface, etc...
<Lucas> If the other groups have something to gain by pretending to be guilty, that will really muddy things.
<Robert> Any information brokers more in the know about a lot of things that don't know what he's fishing for?
<James> Oh, hide by helping him. I like that.
<@SLViehl> I just flashed on Robin Cook's "Coma" -- where patients in hospitals for routine operations were actually being harvested for organs.
<@SLViehl> You do need to muddy the waters if the tech revelation is a big twist, I think
<Robert> I loved that, Sheila! That's the kind of thing - and lots of other stuff went on in that hospital unrelated to it.
<Jinx> Perhaps he's friends with someone who's now working at the new complex, someone he'd trust to tell his story to. This friend pretends to help him with his investigation, etc.
<James> Sheila knows bits of this story -- the techno complex looks like a new kind of public transport, but it's actually going to steal the planet's sun.
<Crista> I read that, Sheila. Scary stuff. My mom bought me a used copy of it when I went in for an appendix operation. <g>
<Izunya> Maybe not. Depending on the sort of technology, if it's useful enough to one group or another, the oddest people could be after it. So if it was technology for, to pull something out of a hat, astral projection, you could have a bunch of near-Luddite mystics after it, just because it parallels their interests.
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Izunya
<Robert> Some terrorist group may want it just to wave it and scare some country.
<Kaelle> Well then, the public transports' competition could look guilty.
<@SLViehl> It's almost like having a nuclear warhead -- if the terrorists have one, we worry. If China has one, we don't.
<Robert> While some corporate spy is trying to get it believing the cover story!
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for James?
<Lucas> Find out who couldn't possibly want it, and figure out why that person suddenly goes after it.
<Lucas> Or pretends to already have it.
<James> Thank you very much, everyone!
<@SLViehl> Okay, Lucas is up (Anne, you're next):
<Lucas> I'm working on the outline for a story. There is a plauge & a revolution, an invading army (connected to both prior problems), a doctor (main character) from another world who married a woman he doesn't love in order to save her life, and an entire system of strange magic stuff he is trying to get a handle on.
<Lucas> This sounds like a ripe situation, but it seems to be lacking vital energy. I think my main problem is that I don't really know what kind of things a doctor would do. Doctors try to heal people, sure, but after he gets rid of the plague, what then?
<Lucas> I wanted to have more things happening in this world to this character, since it seems like such a ripe situation, but everything I come up with seems to short-circuit potential future conflict. As in, every problem is somehow explosively solved all at once.
<Lucas> How's that for prep, eh?
<@SLViehl> (applause)
<@SLViehl> Medical science is one of those wonderful things that always throws a wrench into the works.
<Robert> Doctors always want to know more about any disease or injury, they're curious people with strong stomachs.
<Kaelle> Maybe the plague causes side effects that magic has a strange effect on.
<James> He could try to set up a medical infrastructre to prevent any future plagues -- against traditional vested interests of some sort.
<@SLViehl> Your plague needs to have health consequences. Affect the population in some way. Or, the population reacts to the plague with hysteria over a subsequent, non-lethal epidemic
<Robert> He probably wants to study the magic in its healing aspects and integrate that with what he already knows as a new specialty.
<Jinx> Not all of the doctor's conflicts have to be global. Maybe some things are more personal -- he loses a patient (whether from his mistake or another's), etc.
<Sarah> The plague was keeping something nasty at bay.
<@SLViehl> True, Jinx
<Izunya> What if people were suspicious of the doctor? Maybe he's an outsider, using things that they don't understand. What if they think he's a necromancer? Or the local equivalent.
<Blair #9> maybe the plague and magic are connected....the suffering and dying of many people is what gives the magic strength
<James> He could uncover a link between the plague and the revolution -- the revolutionaries started it to give them an excuse.
<Anne_Marble> Think of the people who thought they had anthrax because there was white powder on the floor (under the chalkboard).
<Robert> On Jinx's note, he lost one patient in it to the wrong symptoms and that BUGS him a long time till he knows why.
<Sarah> Getting the plague and NOT dying of it is what makes the people of this world fertile...
<@SLViehl> Bio-engineered plague. And the doctor discovers there's a bigger, badder version being cooked up.
<Anne_Marble> Good one, Sarah. Some genetic diseases (in their inactive form) actually protect the person against certain plagues.
<Crista> Building on Robert's idea, maybe he found out the magic in conjunction with medicine cures the plague and then your docotr searches for more uses for the magic and the ways both magic and medicine can be melded..
<Robert> Sheesh, I remember Cherijo chewing ona couple of those for a couple of books!
<Sarah> Which they discover after the doctor has wiped it out.
<@SLViehl> Cherijo loves bugs.
<James> I like that, Sarah!
<Izunya> I think you could play quite a bit on the outsider theme. Suspicion, taboos, culture clash, etc.
<Robert> Cherijo's a perfect example, it eats her that deep if she loses even one patient.
<@SLViehl> Survivors will develop antibodies to the plague which could have health consequences, fertility was suggested, but how about genetic mutation"
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Lucas?
<Anne_Marble> Like having the recessive and the dominant genes for sickle cell anemia (which means you dont have them) means you're protected against malaria. Being a carrier for Tay-Saches is similar.
<Robert> Someone's religious vows eating habits might protect against the plague and monks say it's a blessing.
<Izunya> Perhaps the plague has an animal vector, except, unlike rats for the black plague, these creatures shouldn't be killed. It's taboo.
<Lucas> I think the plague was started by the invaders as a chaos inducing gambit, but I could always alter that. One of the ideas I had was that curing the plague made everyone who didn't already have it get sick.
<Kaelle> Are there hospitals - maybe he could want to start one?
<Izunya> Perhaps some groups don't get the plague, for whatever reason. Perhaps some people get very suspicious.
<@SLViehl> And the doctor has to save lives by inducing plague. Oh, man, what a conflict.
<Robert> I like that, the cure is 'get cowpox first'
<@SLViehl> Thanks all -- Anne, you're up.
<Anne_Marble> I was writing at a very good pace in my story about the barbarian who raped the mage. The barbarian now feels very guilty and all the mages hate him, he is depressed, etc. So I had to find something to move the plot so that the barbarian and mage can eventually heal. So now, I need to move the plot forward. I had the barbarian find a forest (where he's a home). He was bathing naked in a cold stre
<James> The plague could change, of course, become worse on its own and defeat whatever cures its creators imagine they had to protect themselves.
<Anne_Marble> stream. But then I got stuck. Does he meet the mage again, or is that too convenient? Or does he come across a large ferocoius animal and use powers he doesn't know to befriend it?
<Anne_Marble> BTW the mage is a man.
<@SLViehl> Does the mage want to get even for the rape? Take revenge on the barbarian?
<Anne_Marble> And they're both in a prison where heretical mages are enslaved.
<Robert> The animal anecdote demands he develop the patience to approach the man he wounded. So the animal's good but don't let him tame it right away. Make him
want to and have to go back every day.
<Robert> Because that wild animal is the only creature talking to him.
<Anne_Marble> When he was raped, the mage used magic to make him experience the rape from the mage's POV. So now, the mage would rather just ignore him. Everyone either ignores or mocks him.
<Izunya> What does the barbarian feel would be proper penance? What's right for his culture?
<@SLViehl> Make him a pariah, so that the animal
is his only potential friend?
<Crista> If the mage wants revenge, then it would make sense that he and the barbarian meet up again. because the mage is hunting the barbarian.
<Sarah> The mage makes the barbarian into a woman.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, that's good, robert. Oh, that's good, Izunya.
<@SLViehl> Whoa, Sarah
<BJ Steeves> That's kind of a turn-about Robert, he was an "animal" to the mage, no the roles are reversed.
<Jinx> I guess i'm wondering WHY the barbarian raped the mage.
<James> The animal could be another mage, teaching him a subtle but possibly cruel lesson.
<Anne_Marble> That could work, Sarah, though there are no women around.
<@SLViehl> Possibly find a way to make the barbarian dependent on the mage for mercy, healing, or something -- then let the mage react
<Robert> You keep equivocating about the animal, the animal is symbolically important and demanding to be in it before the barbarian's fit to be around people.
<Izunya> You can take two approaches to that; either he throws himself into a major quest, rescue attempt, etc, or his penance (monetary compensation, perhaps, like wergeld) goes hideously wrong and the mage takes it as an insult.
<Anne_Marble> He raped him because he fears mages and yet was imprisoned among mages, and he was angry and depressed and in despair, and ny doing something nice, the mage made him cry in front of people.
<Robert> The animal fears him that blindly, and he needs to learn the animal lesson concurrent with all those other things Izunya suggested.
<Anne_Marble> Yes, I think I will use the animal idea.
<Robert> The change in him will change how others treat him, slowly.
<@SLViehl> To progress the barbarian as a character, he needs to learn. He needs to grow. Maybe the animal is his ticket back to where he needs to be.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> Rescue attempt. Yes. That could be the final goal.
<Blair #9> what if the barbarian sees the similiarities in the way he controled the mage to get his way, and the way he controls the animal to be his friend..could provide a moral dillema.
<@SLViehl> Oh, who logged on as Cato.
<Cato> I'm number 13, right? Ok. I'm trying to write a book about what happens to writers when they are randomly severed from communicating with each other. Unfortunately, I can't observe them while they are offline. I was wondering if someone could give me an idea how to research this aspect.
<Robert> Maybe once it's tame the barbarian talks to the animal. Don't lie to the dog, like Dean Koontz said.
<@SLViehl> (snicker) okay, smart guy. Crista, you're up.
<Lucas> Heh, I couldn't resist...
<Crista> The magic system in my book has the price that the more one uses magic, the less one ages. Does this sound hokey or do you think that's a fitting consequence?
<@SLViehl> The picture of Dorian Grey kinda magic. I like it.
<Robert> Grief for non mage loved ones is that terrible price and I impose it on every vampire I write.
<Jinx> Everyone would want to be a mage. <g>
<@SLViehl> Immortality comes with a price.
<Kaelle> interesting. Good until they outlive loved ones.
<Anne_Marble> Could they go in reverse? If they use it too much, they could risk becoming an adolescent again (!) -- and thus never getting any respect when they go out in public!
<BJ Steeves> Imortality, just do magic!
<James> How do you become a mage in the world -- would people compete to get immortality, or is it born in you?
<Izunya> Doesn't sound like a consequence to me; sounds like a side-effect. Which is okay, but for a consequence, you need something else, like, "On the other hand, when you stop doing magic, it's--how should I put this?--bad."
<Izunya> Very bad.
<Robert> Is it a race to learn it fast enough to get it before senility gets you?
<Jinx> It does, but it's usually not considered until it's too late.
<Gayle> would they get immortality...or just not age but still die?
<@SLViehl> Excellent, Izunya.
<James> Also, people ageing normally would hate you -- there could be organized persecution of mages out of pure social spite.
<Crista> It's genetic and so few people get it that those who do are seen as special. until the advent of technolgoy, at which point mages are seen as being out dated.
<Sarah> OOh, Immortality makes them sterile.
<Jinx> That's pretty good. I came back in time to see my own comment. <g>
<Robert> That's a natural corollary and I apply it to longlife races, lower fertility. It reflects nature.
<BJ Steeves> Make them younger, Imagine becoming a child again.
<@SLViehl> People would be terrified of babies.
<Blair #9> magical temper tantrums <shudder>
<@SLViehl> Would they continue to regress, until they return to a fetal state?
<Anne_Marble> Imagine Angelica from Rugrats with magical powers!
<Gayle> or instead of a fetal state die?
<Izunya> If you make magic hard, and hard to come by, you could put the mages in a position where they're always on the move, all over the globe, so they don't get stuck in a place without sufficient magic to sustain them.
<BJ Steeves> Maybe not. Got to young to do proper magic until they aged again.
<James> If magic is tweaking bodies at a cellular level to prevent ageing, mages could be very prone to all forms of cancer, when the process doesn't quite work.
<@SLViehl> Physically, the younger you are, the more limited you are. Mages would have to have mage day care centers.
<Crista> No, it's more as, everytime they use magic, time stops for them. So they can't get younger. They just don't age as quickly.
<Lucas> Maybe they yo-yo. After they get young, they aren't mentally mature enough to do magic, so they start aging again.
<Lucas> Ok, they age at reduced speeds.
<Kaelle> Maybe magic can't be used if too young and have to age to be able to use it again.
<Crista> They don't regress.
<Robert> Kill their fertillity and throw them out of touch socially. They will still react to society as it was, not how it is. Hard to stay current. Hard to care.
<@SLViehl> I think you need a consequence for time stopping for them -- beyond the loss of loved ones, Crista. What's important to the mages? What can you take away from them?
<Kaelle> hmm. Time stops. maybe literally?
<BJ Steeves> Then there would need to be another "price" to pay than staying young by magic.
<Anne_Marble> It reminds me of those books where an astronaut comes back to earth after a long trip. Everything has changed, a LOT.
<James> Possibly in this world ageing confers something grand on those who do age -- special social privilege, unusual semi-magical abilities, power.
<Crista> madness. those that try to use magic to stya young, sacrifice their sanity.
<BJ Steeves> Planet of the Apes
<Robert> They get absentminded about time like those astronauts. Things vanish, not just people but popular songs or th eyear their adopted kid was five.
<@SLViehl> So they stay young but they slowly go mad. I like that.
<@SLViehl> Mage Alzheimer's
<@SLViehl> Mage Dementia
<Izunya> Ah, okay. So
overdose on magic, and you're brain turns to peanut butter.
<Izunya> your, I mean.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Crista?
<Anne_Marble> Did anyone read "Crystal Singer"? They were sort of like that, forgetting things, even loved ones, and they were obsessed.
<Sarah> If immortality makes them infertile, they could end up in real danger of dying out. Or inbreeding creates mutations with nasty side effects.
<Robert> This has a theme of balance to do best with magic - use and not too much, if it's addictive that rounds it out.
<Lucas> The magic could stop their aging by stealing time from people around them.
<Gayle> yes...read the whole trilogy
<@SLViehl> I like that, Lucas
<Lucas> That would make everyone hate mages, because they made everyone else age.
<James> Oh, Lucas, that's good!
<Kaelle> Stealing time! I like that
<@SLViehl> Excellent twist
<Crista> Thanks, everyone.
<@SLViehl> No one would want to go near them. Okay, Izunya, you're up.
<Izunya> Okay. I'm doing the Twisted High Fantasy challenge, and having a great deal of fun at it. The only problem is, it's turned into a sort of a fantasy-based mystery short story, and I've never tried to write a mystery before. Any advice? Places to go for advice? Encouragement or discouragement?
<Izunya> I've read some mystery, just never tried to write it. Or interface it with fantasy.
<Crista> Mysteries are fun.
<Robert> "Write backwards, know the end and then crunch up the way to get to it" is what I read about mystery plotting.
<@SLViehl> Figure out who the killer is first. Work backward, obscuring the trail, throw out some suspects.
<Kaelle> Sounds good. Do you know the answer?
<@SLViehl> Robert and I are psychic now
<Robert> Play fair with the reader. Mystery is a puzzle genre. The clues all have to be in but you misdirect.
<Izunya> I know who killed the guy, if that's what you mean by answer. I also know why, and I know the major twist about his identity that this thing rests on.
<James> Conceal clues in lists of things so the reader's eye will skip - On her mantle was a statue, a vase, a clock, a bloodstained knife, a picture of her mother...
<Sarah> A good idea is to link the murder with whatever element of the story MAKES it a fantasy, so it's not just a murder in fairyland.
<Lucas> Izunya, is the mystery even about a killing?
<Anne_Marble> One solution I've loved in myseries is that a manipulative person convinces another person to do the murder -- he'll have a perfect alibi of course.
<@SLViehl> So the murder affects the fantasy elements, and vice versa
<Lucas> Oops, ok.
<Izunya> Lucas: Yes.
<Robert> The clues can be forensic magic. Psychometric traces on clean objects. Spirits who know and are trying to tell.
<Sarah> I did it with Savage Beast, which is still up on the Fantasy board somewhere, if you want to take a look.
<Anne_Marble> In one, the lord's son wooed a plain dumpy servant girl and persuaded her to poison her employer, his father. Later she killed herself once she realized what she'd done.
<Lucas> Make the murder a thing couldn't have happened if there hadn't been magic/elves/etc.
<Izunya> Robert: yes, I did put some scrying in there. Unfortunately (since this is also a humor piece) the mage who was trying to help accidentally turned the vital beer mug into a frog.
<Robert> Put in a dumpy servant girl who wants to stay one and doesn't take the bribe to be turned into a pretty princess because she hates combing her hair and likes takeing care of people.
<BJ Steeves> Sam Spade in Lord the Rings! Interesting twist!
<Robert> rofl Izunya! Things like that are great!
<Izunya> Thus eradicating any further clues and making himself a bit of a suspect . . .
<@SLViehl> and through his bumbling, he'll reveal the killer?
<James> Use fantasy to overturn traditional fantasy assumptions, i.e. in a traditional mystery you assume, at least, you know who the victim is. But what if magic means the victim is really the victim's goldfish transformed, so to speak?
<Robert> Get him marrying the dumpy servant on grounds of great cooking and affection.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Izunya?
<Lucas> Or that the person who was killed is still the actually the killer?
<Robert> But she won't leave her job as palace maid!
<Izunya> No, he already let vital clue A out with the scrying spell. Nobody caught it yet, though.
<Lucas> Sorry, that was just a totall off thought, probably nothing to do with your story.
<Izunya> Lucas: I may not use it for
this one . . .
<Izunya> Significant ellipsis there.
<Robert> If you like the maid, give her a common sense clue someone who cleans things up would notice!
<@SLViehl> Gayle, I know you gave your turn to Nathan, but we've got time -- anything you want to throw to the group?
<Gayle> Yes..how do I make a power hungry control oriented woman who was bypassed for power "human"?
<@SLViehl> Take away her control. Make her dependent on someone else entirely.
<James> Through her affections and her flaws. What does she love? How does she hurt herself?
<Robert> Show her bitter years in the (secretarial pool) when she got pushed around in retrospect.
<Crista> Give her people to care about. Give her virtues.
<Kaelle> She's kind to small children & old people.
<Gayle> I had not originally planned on having her IN the book but rather talked about ...so I'm at a lost
<Izunya> Make us understand why she's power-hungry and control-oriented. The traditional one is, "I will
never be hurt that way again," for any value of "that way," you find interesting.
<Blair #9> give her a disease where she is dependant on the medication to live
<Gayle> she loves power and control
<Robert> Show how her control trips come out of overprotectiveness and griev over people she couldn't protect.
<James> Or her pursuit of power is to give her the power to protect something.
<@SLViehl> But she'd have suffered something to make her that way, I think, right?
<@SLViehl> Control freaks are inevitably the adult versions of children who had little or no control over their lives.
<James> Another telepathic moment, Robert
<BJ Steeves> Or her path to power is to "run over" those she cares about most.
<Izunya> Lucas: Yeah, it was about the dead guy being the actual murderer. I thought it was intriguing.
<Robert> She loves, her definitions of love are destructive but her motive's love.
<Lucas> Try to show the reasons she wants power.
<Gayle> Not sure what it was...but something in her early childhood turned her against both her parents and she refused their love and resented thelove her younger sister received
<Robert> Is the culture sexist? Was an ambitious brother praised for what she got punished for?
<Robert> When he was better than she was and as a child would have competed fairly and believed in fairness?
<Izunya> Gayle: do you want her to be a hero or a villain or an antihero or something else?
<Lucas> She could crave power with the best of motives.
<Gayle> Primarily a family of girls...she is one of the villains
<@SLViehl> disappointment makes us harden our hearts against loved ones -- maybe her parents failed her in some way
<James> If she saw her mother as very weak, and her father, with all the power, destroyed her, the younger sister being loved for possessing the same 'weak' qualities she thinks she hated in her mother?
<Lucas> "If I was running things, everything wouldn't be this way..."
<@SLViehl> Or they weren't there to protect her when she needed them most -- they were busy doing something for the younger sister
<Robert> She wasn't pretty, and none of her accomplishments mattered to that and even if she grew into her looks belives she's ugly.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Gayle?
<Izunya> This is more like a random detail, but: perhaps she builds up power, builds up control, and lives a very ascetic lifestyle. She's not about luxury, she's all about protecting herself.
<Gayle> her mother was the family matriarch and in the family council...the power was given to her 'granddaughter' (yes robert you know the story I'm talking about)
<Robert> IT seems to all boil down to building her backstory and showing it. And she doesn't believe in herself as much as she pretends to.
<@SLViehl> Control-oriented people are notoriously insecure.
<Robert> Fear - that fear thing is so deep in that character, Gayle. Show her fears.
<James> This sounds like a proving-herself issue.
<Lucas> If she doesn't control, she is controlled. There could be no alternatives in her mind.
<Robert> Her mother was very cruel to her and she didn't understand what her mother rejected her for and still doesn't understand.
<James> Which means, a couple of scenes where she tries too hard to be scary and fails would make her seem human.
<Robert> She's tragic.
<@SLViehl> Well, folks, that's a wrap. Any comments or suggestions to fine-tune the think tank? I like having numbers after everyone's name, and having everyone prepare something to present before the session. Thanks to Blair and Lucas for those. More?
<Robert> She tries way way too hard in all the wrong ways and wants mom's approval.
<Izunya> The alternative to control is chaos. She's seen chaos. It was horrible.
<Anne_Marble> Oh God!!! Someone published a satirical piece about George Bush and his new "note cut initiatitve." And someone on the Glenn Gould list posted it because he thought it was real. And now they're mocking Bush on the list.
<James> I might mull that question and e-mail you, Sheila.
<Robert> I loved this! Fast and crazy and wild!
<Crista> My cut and paste function won't work in this chat, so I'm sorry i wasn't as prepared as others.
<James> Fast is the word! You couldn't look away for a second
It was fun.
<Jinx> How about a way to pass our turn? If we want to just sit in for the session, I mean.
<Anne_Marble> "The administration's plan calls for a one-time refund of 3,000 notes to all tax-paying and note-playing musicians." Duh???
<Lucas> Dedicating #13 to Cato was a nicely superstitious atmospheric touch.
<Crista> Also, can we sit in even if we don't have a question?
<Kaelle> Two hours already?!
<@SLViehl> Sure, anyone can pass, and anyone can just sit in.
<@SLViehl> Went like the speed of light.
<@SLViehl> If you want to pass, just let your moderator know.
<Gayle> sure did...I enjoyed it...
<Robert> Thanks everyone, for helping with my problem. It ran too fast for me to squish that in.
<Anne_Marble> Do I dare point out to people that was an
obvious satire?
<Izunya> That was a lot of fun! Thanks, everyone.
<@SLViehl> Go for it, Anne. lol
<BJ Steeves> I love good satire.
<Robert> Likewise
<Jinx> Thanks to everyone! I think this forum is going to be a wonderful success, Sheila!
<Kaelle> This was really good for idea-starters. Thanks everyone!
<James> Ditto on the universal thanks!
<Lucas> I think this test run has definitely proved the feasability of the Think-Tank concept.
<@SLViehl> We'll be having think tank every Friday night, same time, beginning in February (the 8th, I think) Check your community calendar and please join us again.
<@SLViehl> I think you guys are awesome.
<Izunya> Oh, I'll be here, count on it.
<BJ Steeves> Maybe we can do different topics, one for each session?
<Robert> You mutated me and made it an instinct, Sheila.
<Sarah> Me too!
Oh, not on the 8th, but after that!
<Lucas> BJ - How can you do topics for individual people's problems?
<Crista> Are you stil just having regular classes, too, Sheila?
<Gayle> yes, thank you everybody for helping with J'el
<@SLViehl> I'm going to schedule topic sessions for another night, BJ -- working that out now with Holly. This is sort of a free for all
<Izunya> BJ: I like the anything-goes sort of format, myself, but I'd attend a topic session too, if it matched my issues.
<BJ Steeves> I don't know...Just a wild thought. Not that good either...
<Anne_Marble> I think I'm going to e-mail the list owner and ask her to post an administrative message.
<Robert> Yayyy, it's not an either-or, there will still also be topical formats cool!
<@SLViehl> Yes, I'll be moving regular classes to another night. I just wanted to make Friday night more open, problem-solving
<Lucas> Shiela, you just keep coming up with more items, don't you?
<Anne_Marble> Oh, the irony! People are commenting about how dumb Bush is -- and they thought that message was for real!!!
<Anne_Marble>
http://www.celloheaven.com/mbarchs/2001/sept10/bushjoke.htm
<@SLViehl> Well, I may do a couple of repeat classes as new people join us. Not sure yet.
<Crista> Cool, Sheila. The think tank is fun, but I still prefer your regular classes. <g>
<Lucas> Amazing.
<Izunya> Anne: this is the same human race that believed the Harry Potter satire from the Onion. You're surprised?
<@SLViehl> Or a topic night, like BJ suggested
<Blair #9> okay.... just not saturday nights.....
<Gayle> Well...I need to make pop corn for the one movie we're watching tonight...see you all later
<Kaelle> I must have both <folding arms & frowning ferociously>
<@SLViehl> night Gayle & Nathan!
<Izunya> See you, Gayle.
<Jinx> I like the topic/theme night suggestion, too.
<Lucas> How are we ever going to get any writing done with so many fun workshops?
<@SLViehl> Yes, ma'am.
<Anne_Marble> But the Glenn Gould list should be smarter!!!
<Kaelle> lol, Sheila
<James> See you Gayle and Nathan!
<Kaelle> Night G and N!
<Robert> Night, Gayle & Nathan, enjoy the movie!
<Jinx> Night, Gayle! Night, Nathan!
<Gayle> thank you...goodnight all
<Lucas> Good night, Gayle, Nathan.
<@SLViehl> Any last suggests/comments/whatever for your moderator?
<Izunya> I need to be moving along, too, although I'll (hopefully) be back in chat in about half an hour.
<Izunya> So, g'night, everyone.
<@SLViehl> Thanks for being here, Izunya, 'night
<Kaelle> Goodnight
<Robert> If you're still up, please join those of us heading for chat, Sheila?
<Jinx> Yes, Sheila. When is the next StarDoc book coming out, and what is on those disks??? ;-}
<Jinx> Night, Izunya!
<James> Not for now: just one last thank you, and a cheerful goodnight as I shuffle off back to the real world. Goodnight all!
<Kaelle> ditto Jinx
<@SLViehl> I'll head over to chat in a few minutes -- have to feed the felines.
<Crista> Night, Izunya!
<Jinx> Night, James!
<@SLViehl> night James
<BJ Steeves> All I can say is that this was the shortest 2 hours I did in a long time. Graet fun and ideas both!
<Kaelle> night, James
<Crista> Night, James!
<Lucas> Everything seems to have run smoothly. If I think of any suggestions I'll send them in, but most things seem to be covered.
<BJ Steeves> Night James
'<Jinx> I think she's ignoring me, Kaelle. <g>
<Sarah> Night Izunya, Night James!
<Anne_Marble> I'm going to go feed Cato.
<Kaelle> could be, Jinx
<Robert> The scribe is leaving the chat and mailing. Night, all!
<@SLViehl> I think it went great for a trial run. Well, the children are meowing, I must go. I'll be over in Chat in about ten minutes, otherwise, see you all around the site, and thanks, this was great
<Kaelle> Yeah, Sheila - suggestion; stay healthy, y'hear?
<Jinx> Night, Robert!
<@SLViehl> Will do. Night Robert. Night all!
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<Crista> heading by nightly cato bashing now.
<Jinx> Night, Shiela and everyone else! <waves>
<Lucas> Good night all.
<BJ Steeves> Thanks SHeila...Good night All!!
<Kaelle> See you