<Night_Mare_chan> Heyyo!
sinks down into a big bean bag chair Ahhh comfy
<Jinx> Hello, Kaelle!
<Kaelle> Hi, everyone!
<RobertAndAri> That's better. Purr <bash> (Ari sits on NMC)
<RobertAndAri> Purr <bash> Kaelle
<Night_Mare_chan> Lol...hello kitty cat! You just had to lie on my notebook didn't you? *scratches Ari's ears*
<Kaelle> <scritches Ari under chin>
<@SLViehl> Evening everyone
<Jinx> Hello, Sheila!
<Gayleeveni> evening sheila
<Night_Mare_chan> Hihi!
<RobertAndAri> {Ari bounds drunkenly around the room with his catnip mousie purring and bouncing!} Bash Sheila!
<Kaelle> Hi Sheila!
<Sarah> Hey Sheila!
<Night_Mare_chan> Sheila?
<Night_Mare_chan> 0o
<@SLViehl> That's me
<Night_Mare_chan> Oh. lol.
wave wave
<@SLViehl> Sorry I'm a wee bit later. Browser difficulties tonight
<RobertAndAri> You have perfect timing, Sheila. I want you to know that. My current WIP clogged on Needed Worldbuilding.
<Night_Mare_chan> Join the club Sheila ^_~
<Night_Mare_chan> I love world building! It'
<Night_Mare_chan> It's one of my favorite hobbies. ^_^
<Kaelle> brb
<@SLViehl> We're with you on that.
<RobertAndAri> Some people knit sweaters or do cross stitch. We make planets.
<@SLViehl> I'm going to give our stragglers a few more minutes then get started, so if anyone wants to make a run for beverage/bathroom/whatever, go!
<James> Hi all -- hope you're having a great evening
<Kaelle> Well, some of us do all that, Robert <g>
<Jinx> Hello, James!
<RobertAndAri> Cofffeeeeeee...
<@SLViehl> Hey James
<Gayle> might not be too talkative in the beginning...dinner is done...chicken....greasy fingers and all
<Sarah> I do cross stitch too. Until I did too many and didn't know what to do with them all...
<Gayle> evening James
<Night_Mare_chan> I cross stich
<@SLViehl> Gayle's making me hungry
<Night_Mare_chan> I'm not very good though. ^^;
<@SLViehl> It's a conspiracy with Anne
<Night_Mare_chan> I don't have the patience.
<Kaelle> I'm conspiring, too. I have salsa and chips tonight.
<Sarah> I just ended up with a lot of cross-stitched fabric lying around collecting dust.
<Jinx> I'm trying a new recipe tonight.
<RobertAndAri> I do costuming, medieval embroidery, medieval calligraphy, a lot of medieval art forms...
<@SLViehl> Night_Mare_chan, ok if we call you Night to save typing?
<Night_Mare_chan>
gets up from her beanbag chair and grabs a bag of munchies Yah sure!
<Joel A> Good evening, y'all.
<Kaelle> I cross-stitch on my breaks at work with my friend Marian. And beading at home.
<@SLViehl> Hi Joel
<Night_Mare_chan> Heyyo
<Jinx> Hello, Joel
<Sarah> Kaelle -- what the heck do you do with them when you're done?
<@SLViehl> brb, need other notes from the other desk
<Joel A> Evening, Ms. V...er...Sheila!
<Joel A> Evening, Jinx.
<Kaelle> Give 'em away <g>
<Night_Mare_chan>
goes back to her seat Mmmm...chocolate covered pretzles
<Bklyn> Hi everyone!
<Jinx> I cross-stitch, too. Made Christmas stockings for my nephews when they were in the womb. Of course, didn't get them finished until they were three. <g>
<Joel A> Hi, Bklyn
<Night_Mare_chan>
wavie
<Gayle> hey brooklyn
<@SLViehl> Full house tonight -- Hi Deb
<Jinx> (Twins -- had to do two of them) Hello, Deb
<Night_Mare_chan> Lol at Jinx. Procrastinators' R' Us. I'm a full fledged member
<Kaelle> Hi, Deb, Joel, James
<Bklyn> Apologies everyone...last weekend all hell decided to break loose over here,
<@SLViehl> Argh, twins. (hugging Jinx in sympathy)
<Joel A> Hi, Kaelle
<Joel A> Everything okay, Bklyn?
<RobertAndAri> Purr <bash> everyone, scribing like crazy
<Night_Mare_chan> >< Wish hell'd stay where it belongs
<Joel A> Hey, Robert.
<James> Hi everyone I've missed
(I popped away from chat to set up a file to keep a transcript, and the place filled up while I was gone.)
<Kaelle> LOL, Night!
<Joel A> Hey, James.
<Sarah> Okay, how did I go through half my printer cartridge already???
<BJ Steeves> Evening All!
<Jinx> Hello, BJ
<@SLViehl> Is one of your rommies hungry again, Sarah?
<RobertAndAri> Without even noticing, Sarah... hi BJ hi everyone I missed
<@SLViehl> Those guys are like locust
<@SLViehl> Hey BJ
<Joel A> Hi, BJ.
<Night_Mare_chan> Konban wa to everyone I missed
<Kaelle> Hi BJ
<Bklyn> family issues Joel...<sigh> since when did
I become "family counselor"
<Sarah> Lol! Tell me about it! I've labelled all my food insanely with initials (every try to individually label the cans in a case of diet coke?)
<Joel A> Hi, Night.
<Night_Mare_chan> LOL at Sarah. Hey Joel
<Joel A> It's the blood, Bklyn
<Sarah> I hid the grapes. If they want fruit, they'll have to get their own.
<RobertAndAri> I have tried, Sarah, and I commiserate.
<Kaelle> LOL, Sarah. I remember roomies who liked to "share"
<Bklyn> Sarah...how bout printing out a page of labels and stick 'em to EVERYTHING
<@SLViehl> Know how to solve that? Leave something really tempting, clearly labelled, but spike it with cayenne pepper.
<Night_Mare_chan> In my family if I have the grapes they usually have the wrath ^^;
<Jinx> I used to lock food up in my room. Was the only way I had anything to eat.
<Kaelle> Ooh, Sheila
<RobertAndAri> Signing your grapes is extreme, the locusts have to understand.
<@SLViehl> Lots of cayenne pepper
<Joel A> LOL. Sheila! You're so...!
<Sarah> Lol! Ooh, good one. Though, knowing Adrian's tastes...
<Kaelle> Ditto, Jinx. I hid everything.
<Bklyn> good one sheila!!
<@SLViehl> Bet they never steal your food again.
<@SLViehl> Hi Izunya
<RobertAndAri> Your own fridge.
<Izunya> Hello.
<James> May I remind Sarah that Sheila has posted a list of common household poisons...
<Kaelle> Hi Izunya!
<Joel A> Hey, Izunya!
<Night_Mare_chan> Heyia Izunya
<James> Hello Izunya
<Izunya> Hi, Kaelle, Joel, Nightmare, James
<Jinx> LOL, James! Hello, Izunya
<Bklyn> Sarah, try some chocolate exlax
<Night_Mare_chan> Can I just call you Izzy? I don't think I can remember how to spell that. ^^;
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverage runs before we get started
<Sarah> My sib has my fridge, and needs it more than I do. Well, I considered letting Stephen eat the soup that's been sitting in the fridge in an open can for a week, but that's just mean.
<Izunya> Nightmare: Go right ahead. My real name's Isabel, so I'm used to that one too.
<Night_Mare_chan> Call me Night then. ^_~
<Joel A> My beverage should be arriving shortly...HONEY! Is the cafe mocha ready? Ms. Viehl's going to start her presentation!
<Izunya> Be glad to. Nice to meet you, Night.
<RobertAndAri> Man, what did you do, Joel? Get a girlfriend or wife by timetravel from the fifties?
<Joel A> Whoa. Suddenly went quiet.
<Night_Mare_chan> A friend of mines gonna join soon. I hope she can find her way. ^^;
<@SLViehl> Oh, Joel, I would
so make you get your own coffee
<Sarah> rolf
<James> LOL, Robert -- a new kind of spam: Hot Fifties Women in Your Mailbox!
<Joel A> Robert, Sheila, it's not that way. Honest. I just make a LOUSY cafe mocha.
<Bklyn> i thought it was cute <g>
<Izunya> Rolling on Laughing Floor? (Yes, I know, I shouldn't make fun of acronym things.)
<@SLViehl> yeah, sure. Okay, Anne's here
<Kaelle> Hi Anne
<Anne_Marble> Puff, PUff, Puff
<Jinx> <waits for Anne's food of choice for the evening>
<James> Hi Anne
<Izunya> Hi, Anne.
<Joel A> Really, Sheila! And I pay all the bills....
<Gayle> evening anne
<Sarah> No, "rolf" as in "I say what I'm typing sometimes, and "rolf" sounds more like a laughing sound than "rofl" ".
<Joel A> Hi, Anne!
<@SLViehl> Welcome Kija
<Joel A> Hi, Kiija
<@SLViehl> I mean, Kiija
<Kaelle> Hello, Kiija
<Anne_Marble> Leftover frozen Tombstone pizza (Quessadilla style)
<Joel A> Hi, Anon_31
<Kiija> Hello and thank you.
<James> I don't know, rolfing sounds too close to ralphing, which ain't laughing!
<Sarah> You didn't watch enough muppets, James.
<Izunya> Hello, Kiija and whoever Anon_31 is.
<Bklyn> yummm the quesadilla tombstones are awesome
<Izunya> I guess it matters how you laugh.
<James> Surely any amount is enough, Sarah
<@SLViehl> All right troops, let's get this show on the road. Welcome to SF/F World building. I'm your host, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<RobertAndAri> I can't eat anything remotey mexican
<Gayle> but doesn't keep your house, cook you meals, laundry...do you know how much that would cost you Joel if you had to pay for it...oops sorry sheila
<Joel A> Hi, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> No prob, Gayle. During our last session, we talked about creating religions, linguistics, and recreations
<@SLViehl> and briefly touched on creating a history for your new world.
<@SLViehl> Tonight we're going to get more into history, and if time allows, linguistics
<@SLViehl> What I'll do is present my material, then throw up a QUESTIONS, and that's when to hit me with whatever ??? you've got. Everyone ready?
<Jinx> Ready!
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<Joel A> Yes.
<Gayle> yes
<Kaelle> yep
<James> Yep.
<Sarah> Yep!
<Izunya> Ready!
<RobertAndAri> Ready and willing!
<Jehane> ready
<@SLViehl> Okay. Using Earth history as a template when creating your world(s)
<@SLViehl> The recent breakout bestseller "Kushiel's Dart" was based entirely on human history timelines, rearranged and renamed by the author.
<@SLViehl> I could identify with every aspect of the story because the events were so similar to our own history. This makes it easy to set the world frame in a reader's mind.
<@SLViehl> And a lot of authors do it.
<@SLViehl> Still, what breaks you apart from the herd is how you do things differently from the pack.
<@SLViehl> I don't think a writer should follow human history to the letter. Rather, try to analyze portions of history that best relate to the timeline and societies in your novel, and extrapolate a sense of progression and development that works for your world.
<@SLViehl> For example: the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. Everyone's pretty familiar with that.
<@SLViehl> You could follow it to the letter, rename all the Caesars, Collesseums, warring armies and empire-building generals who do exactly what the real ones did.
<@SLViehl> (yawn)
<@SLViehl> Or you can observe the turn-key moments that lead a civilization fated to be riddled with corruption until it results in the eventual collapse, and create comparitive scenarios within your own unique historic structure.
<@SLViehl> And while you're looking at human history as a template or a source of inspiration, see into the events of the past.
<@SLViehl> Was what happened something that emerged naturally, as a result of developing civilization, or as the end result of a disaster?
<@SLViehl> Some civilizations can be more valuable to history than others. Take the Greeks.
<@SLViehl> Historians argue that if the Greeks had not developed science, it is entirely possible that our present civilizations would have not developed mathematics, space technology, even industrial advances.
<@SLViehl> Everyone agrees the Egyptians and the Chinese were in some ways scientifically way ahead of the Greeks, but they had not discovered the real nature of the world. Their science was bound up in mysticism and magic.
<@SLViehl> It was the Greeks who first questioned reality and what its destiny might be. This is called "philosophia" or "love of wisdom"
<@SLViehl> It was not bound in superstition. It did not seek to serve a hierarchy. It was a search for truth.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<RobertAndAri> If there had been no Greek philosophers, could a different culture have come up with the same empirical ideas about reality approaching it in a different way at a different time? I look at history and it's so
short compared to geologic history.
<Yanaba> Could you also take a history and completely change the setting? Like if it's ancient history, change it to fit a space age?
<Joel A> Environment plays a major role in a civilizations development. Can you transplant one civilization in one clime (i.e., ancient Athens) to, for example, the climate of the bayou in the Americas? How will that affect the civilization?
<James> The Foundation series, Yanaba, is famously set against the Fall of the Roman Empire transferred to the broader stage of the galaxy.
<@SLViehl> So many things the Greeks discovered shaped what has become our science -- it would require the same from another civilization, Robert, and that's basically a developmental crap shoot. You never know.
<Anne_Marble> What are good general historical references for people with tired brains?
Particularly some that get into subtle changes like economics, not just wars and plagues.
<Izunya> This isn't entirely on topic, but still: I find myself again and again writing worlds where there was some sort of "fall of civilization," in the past, probably because I like rennaisances and the European one had the Roman Empire in its history. Is there another template I can consider for making a rennaisance that doesn't have that element? Because I think I may be in a rut with this.
<@SLViehl> I think you can adapt ancient civilizations very easily into the space age, Yanaba. The belief systems could be readily adapted, and you simply add technology.
<labloch> A small addendum to Sheila's answer is that the Greek language is well suited to theoretical concepts and abstracts, Robert.
<@SLViehl> Climate has an immense impact on development of civilizations, Joel -- available food sources, natural predators, shelter requirements -- the changes a transplantation would cause are extensive.
<James> Speaking of the Foundation books -- Asimov (on Campbell's advice, IIRC) set up his universe according to history, then halfway through disrupted everything with the appearance of the Mule -- would you advise us to find ways our world can interact in unexpected ways with what happened in real history, making something wholly new?
<Anne_Marble> Look how long some of those belief systems have lasted. There are still Buddhists and Jews and Christians and the like. They don't necessarily follow the original ideas, but they originated from them.
<Joel A> Izunya, what about the "hippy" generation in the U.S.? And the 70s? Both had major impacts without the fall of the country.
<Jehane> Izunya: There are many civilisations that have "fallen". Just think of ancient Mesopotamia, the South American empires, the Mongolians, etc
<Izunya> Yanaba: I would add a small warning that the aspects of the culture or history should be transplanted because they fit, not because Romans In Space is Cool.
<Joel A> Thanks, Sheila. I suspected as much.
<@SLViehl> How it affects the civilization also depends on the drastic changes invoked by the transplantation, Joel. For this, I'd recommend reading "1632", Eric Flint's novel about transplanting a 20th century mining town in the middle of 17th century Germany
<@SLViehl> Eric does good drastic.
<Joel A> Thanks, Sheila. I'll see about the book.
<Anne_Marble> YOu can download it free at www.Baen.com :->
<@SLViehl> labloch's point about Greek language is excellent, btw -- trying to catch up
<Joel A> Thanks, Anne!
<RobertAndAri> I think one of the reasons Romans in Space is Cool happens because Romans wrote copiously...
<Izunya> Jehane: This is probably why "fallen empires," pop up a lot in fiction, but there might be a time when I really don't want that in the background. So I'll look at the 1960's for that; thanks, Joel.
<labloch> Robert, they never threw anything away...
<@SLViehl> I think in order to break new ground, James, writers have to find new ways to adapt history and use their worlds to interact and have impact on new resolutions and outcomes.
<Joel A> You're welcome, Izun. Let us know what you come up with.
<Joel A> Sheila, will you be mentioning the interaction of non-human races to a human civilization?
<Night_Mare_chan> I think that all empires have to fall eventually ...
<Izunya> Most likely, all these thoughts will be bonking around until I come up with something completely unrecognizable. But I do intend to start posting crit requests . . .
<RobertAndAri> Night, I think that depends on what you consider a fall...
<@SLViehl> That gets more into the realm of individual creativity, Joel, but do you have a specific area you'd like addressed?
<@SLViehl> and have I missed anyone's question? (think I got them all)
<Joel A> Yes, Sheila. Specifically, the interactions of a more technologically advance culture and its impact on a less technological, but far more aggressive culture.
<James> In an historical context -- non-human interaction with humans can be adapted from historical cultures encountering or living with markedly different cultures. European exploration would probably be a fertile period to study.
<Joel A> I once saw a book on Chinese interacting with the African civilizations.
<Jehane> James: Yes, especially since they often considered non-europeans sub-human
<@SLViehl> I think I addressed that in the transcript on culture clashes and expressions thereof
<Joel A> Good point, Jehane.
<Joel A> Thanks, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Any time two vastly different cultures clash, you've got problems.
<Izunya> James: another good thing to look at is individual anthropologists and the things they've written. Of course, I'm prejudiced there, since I was an anthro major.
<@SLViehl> Look at the Native Americans and the European colonists. Big culture clash, major headaches.
<Joel A> And stories, Sheila!
<Izunya> You get the most interesting little out-of-the-way bunches . . . as well as the most interesting misperceptions.
<Joel A> The ancient Japanese, when they discovered ancient, did everything to emulate them.
<James> Mm, Izunya, I was thinking that more obscure, individual views of what happened might be better to base stories on -- because they'd be less familiar and not as inclined to be based on broad cultural assumptions.
<Night_Mare_chan> Joel: When they discovered ancient what?
<@SLViehl> Yes, please -- avoid stereotypes perpetuated by the "winners"
<@SLViehl> such as "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" and "the noble savage" cliches
<Night_Mare_chan> History is written by the conquerers...
<RobertAndAri> Thank you, Sheila. That plagues me about Romans in Space, because the Romans had some very narrow ideas on
everything
<Izunya> That was sort of what I was thinking, actually. Individual views get you a view of the day-to-day people, which can be very important.
<@SLViehl> As world builders, you get to re-write history if you want. Have fun with it.
<James> Mind you, narrow ideas make for lovely stories because reality is so inclined to widen them, with much conflict enjoyed by all!
<Joel A> I'm sorry, Night. I know historically that Japan and China interacted for some time. The Japanese apparently admired many facets of the Chinese and adopted them into their own culture. For example, Buddhism.
<@SLViehl> Who says the white man has to win? (Pam Sargent doesn't.:)
<Night_Mare_chan> Joel: And some of their symbols too. ^_~ Kanji for example is used in Japan but originated in China
<@SLViehl> The Japanese also regularly invaded China and broke off cultural relations with them in the 16th century.
<Blair> <quietly slips into the back of the class...hoping the teacher doesn't notice>
<Jehane> (Hi Blair)
<@SLViehl> Blair!
<James> Hey Blair
<Izunya> (whispering) Hi, Blair.
<@SLViehl> (writing out a detention slip)
<Joel A> Hi, Blair! <waves frantically!>
<Jinx> <throws a spitwad at Blair>
<James> So the whole sneaking in thing worked out then
<RobertAndAri> Hey, Blair! <squirts ink>
<Kaelle> HI Blair
<Night_Mare_chan> lol Konban wa Blair!
<Joel A> That's true, Sheila, Night. Interesting study. I'll have to consider it for a template.
<Jehane> Joel and Night: The modern Japanese are, I believe, originally descended from Chinese "settlers"
<Gayle> evening blair
<Blair> <mental note....my classmates are meanies> <G>
<@SLViehl> All right gang, let's move on to the next section on history
<Jehane> THere are aboriginal Japanese although they are few in number now
<Izunya> See, I've
done the sneaking in thing, and you don't say *anything.* Then, after a few minutes in the classroom, someone suddenly says, "Izunya! Where did you come from?" allowing you to claim a completely fictional ability to teleport. At least through computers.
<Joel A> I thought the aboriginal Japanese (the Ainu) are caucasian?
<Joel A> Sorry, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> No problem, Joel. Onto more history in the making --
<@SLViehl> when you adapt human civilizations for use in your world building, be aware of their limitations as well as their triumphs.
<@SLViehl> The Chinese, for example, invented gun powder. Great technological advance, right?
<@SLViehl> However, they invented it while they were trying to find an elixir of immortality for the Emperor.
<@SLViehl> Chinese methods were often astonishingly successful, but success does not equal advancement. Sometimes, it's just a happy accident.
<@SLViehl> The Chinese never developed fundamental science because basically, they didn't have geometry.
<@SLViehl> The Egyptians had some geometry -- we know that from the way they built their pyramids.
<@SLViehl> But the Greeks invented geometry in the sense that they established generalized principals.
<@SLViehl> The Egyptians knew how to use it, but the Greeks proved it worked.
<@SLViehl> If you don't have trigenometry (sp?) you can't navigate the ocean.
<RobertAndAri> trigonometry
<Joel A> trigonometry
<Izunya> trigonomentry, I think
<James> bathoscape
<Night_Mare_chan> lol
<Joel A> "bathoscape"?
<@SLViehl> Thanks, Joel -- once a ship turns away from a coastline, one cannot find the coastline again without advanced trig
<James> Bloody Word spellchecker
<Joel A> oh, booo, ms viehl...er...sheila!
<@SLViehl> Thank goodness the Arabs had the sense to preserve the text of Archimedes or we might still be trying to discover America
<@SLViehl> Mass production of key Greek mathematical texts began in 1471 in Italy and continued until Copernicus used the very same texts to produce his new world system in 1543.
<@SLViehl> So the knowledge gained by one civilization can have tremendous impact on future generations, societies, and cultures.
<@SLViehl> Loss of that knowledge can be equally as devastating.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<RobertAndAri> Why is it that so many future histories automatically just do a sudden regression
back from recent events and discoveries that have changed things as much as the greeks?
<Jehane> knowledge can also hamper development of a civilisation, with scientists refusing to believe anything other than accepted truths, eg Aristotle and the sun going around the earth
<@SLViehl> Because it's the easy way out, Robert. Harder to make logical twists and turns for the writer
<@SLViehl> Good point, Jehane -- as Galileo found out.
<Izunya> This is a bit off topic from what you're talking about, but how do you deal with a civilization that has very little change, and doesn't really have much of a sense of it's own history? "We've been here since the gods put us here," that sort of thing. How much history does one invent for that sort of thing?
<RobertAndAri> To me anything in the future would have all the writings and discoveries of this time as part of its history even if they're suppressed - somewhere Arabs would save copies.
<Night_Mare_chan> I never thought of it that way before. Cultures can gain more then just trading goods.
scribbles this down in her notebook But would one cultures discovery affect the present situation or affect the future?
<Joel A> What about massive cultural shifts, Sheila? For example, if women in the U.S. were suddenly forced back into second class status and history was rewritten to delete their contributions?
<labloch> Joel, we'd be in the Stone Age! <g>
<Izunya> Joel: Someone would be saving twentieth-century texts. Count on it.
<Joel A> <in a serious tone> you're not that far off the mark, labloch.
<Anne_Marble> What about stories about a current (at the time of the book) civilization finding knowledge of the past civilization? That's been done in SF, but what about fantasy?
<James> Izunya, long spans of time are going to contain one in a million changes -- like the major volcanic eruption that did in the Minoans -- so there are going to be some events that their history can't ignore.
<Jehane> Joel: that has happened to an extent in muslim countries where fundamentalists have gained power
<RobertAndAri> That underground femaleroad from The Handmaid's Tale
would develop.
<@SLViehl> Izunya, I think you would be looking at developing the internal civilization -- how their society evolves over time, assumes rituals, develops religions and laws. You'd have a very complex culture to play with, without the huge, event-type rifts
<James> No, Lablock, we'd be in the 1950s
<James> oops, Labloch
<Joel A> Good point, Jehane. I can start research there when I'm ready.
<Night_Mare_chan> What if men were forced into second-class status?
<Joel A> True, Robert. Forgot about that book.
<James> Then we'd be in the nineties
<labloch> lol James
<Night_Mare_chan> lol. Good point James. ^_~
<RobertAndAri> I loved it, first dystopia the author didn't assume the bad guys would win
forever
<Joel A> James!
<Night_Mare_chan> dystopia?
<Joel A> BRB. Coffee mocha caught up with me
<Jehane> opposite of utopia
<RobertAndAri> 1984, Brave New World, its imitators, authors usually make it look like the evil totalitarians will hold power forever if they win at all.
<Anne_Marble> Have there been stories about civilizations becoming changed because someone rediscovered an ancient
philosophy rather than an ancient technology?
<Izunya> Night: some similar things, I would think. The men would have private myths, stories, etc.
<@SLViehl> Holly does that well in the Secret Texts, Anne -- as Kait and her crew discover the previous "Dragon" culture
<labloch> Anne, a slight variation on that would be Anne McCaffrey's Pern series. They start out Fant and go to SF, sort of.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, yeah, heh heh. Good point, Sheila. :->
<@SLViehl> I won't spoil the books by explaining how the discovery affects the current culture, but it's major.
<@SLViehl> Joel, on massive cultural shifts, you're going to create all kinds of pocket fundamentalists and counter-cultures and other expressions within the society as a result of a too-rapid shift.
<Night_Mare_chan> pocket fundamentalists?
<Anne_Marble> Somebody Somebody Elgin did an SF series where all rights were taken away from women in the near future. (Most reviewers found it hard to believe.) But then, it turned out that only women could communicate with the aliens we had just met.
<@SLViehl> How much depends on the scale of the civilization and the force of the impact. Say, if all American women were forced by law to wear Taliban-type veils tomorrow.
<Izunya> Suzette Hadin
<@SLViehl> You'd have pockets of resistance -- women who burn their veils, women who leave society to live in isolation so they can walk around "veil-less", etc.
<labloch> Night, buttons only. No zippers.
<@SLViehl> You'd have men who refuse to make women wear the veils. The more freedom you take away, the more resistance you create, in my opinion
<Anne_Marble> I wonder if that's how the Isle of Lesbos got its start?
<Night_Mare_chan> Labloch, I have no idea what you're talking about I'm afraid. ^^;
<@SLViehl> Especially within a society that is essentially democratic until the culture rift.
<RobertAndAri> That's the sort of thing I mean, Sheila - that today's world would affect the future. 500 years ago they might not have reacted as intensely. Or a thousand.
<Izunya> Where we stand right now, people who want things like second-class status for women tend to draw a lot of their energy from the sheer fact of being antithetical to the current culture. You have to wonder how well they'd do if they were suddenly enemy-free.
<labloch> Anne, that isle was a minor religious site around a community, and then it flowered into a women's teaching/cultural site, if I remember correctly.
<Night_Mare_chan> In order for it to work, you'd have to take the freedom away slowly and hope to hell no one realizes it before its too late
<@SLViehl> Good point, Night.
<Joel A> You actually have a real-world example, Izun. The Roman Catholic Church and many other christian denominations.
<Night_Mare_chan> Teaching future generations of children that wearing a veil is right or cool or whatever and they impress that onto their children until no one thinks anything of it
<James> In the modern world, you'd also need to take the attitude of surrounding countries into account. You'd have diplomatic problems, and refugee crises of various kinds, if the US suddenly turned brutally misogynistic.
<Izunya> Joel: A real-word example for which? A group that wants women to be second-class citizens?
<labloch> (pocket fundamentalists...back to basics. Buttons. A joke.
)
<@SLViehl> That's how 1/3 of the world gets away with female circumcision, Night.
<Night_Mare_chan> Yeah. I know
<Izunya> Actually, I was drawing on a sociology class about various fundamentalisms across the world.
<@SLViehl> lol labloch
<@SLViehl> Okay, group, how about we take a five minute break now?
<Gayle> sounds good to me...
<Kaelle> Ok, brb, then.
<Izunya> So yes. I have quite a number of real-world examples to look at.
<Anne_Marble> Speaking of pockets and buttons... Yay, my FM T-shirt and mug shipped! :->
<James> Why not
<Jinx> Yes! BRB
<Izunya> Sounds good.
<Anne_Marble> OK
<Blair> wow, time sure flies by when you are late....
<RobertAndAri> Intermission: Time to change the file over!
<Izunya> I'll be right back.
<Night_Mare_chan> Then of course someone goes to the old hoarder of twentieth century books and finds out that they didn't used to have to wear veils and another cultureal shift begins... ^^;
<Jenny> I'll take this opportunity to say hi, and sorry for being late.
<labloch> food time! <g>
<Night_Mare_chan> But that was a bit late wasn't it? ^^;
<@SLViehl> brb, putting on the kettle. Hi Jenny (she slipped in the back like Blair)
<James> See, Blair, Jenny knows how to sneak in! Hi Jenny!
<RobertAndAri> Purr <bash> Jenny
<Blair> I'm just a sucker for attention
<Joel A> Sorry, Izun. Wasn't clear. There have been reports that one of the problems the Roman Catholic Church and other christian denominations is the fact that their teachings are based partially on being persecuted by the majority. But since they're the dominant faith, they've been losing numbers as people become dissatisfied with them and seek spiritual comfort from other, minority, faiths.
<Anne_Marble> I LUV Pop-up Stopper.
<Night_Mare_chan> Hey Jenny!
stretches in her bean bag chair and offers a kitty treat to Ari
<Joel A> Hi, Jenny.
<Kaelle> Hi Jenny!
<Night_Mare_chan> My computers actually been good today. I'm probably gonna hafta reboot it soon tho
<@SLViehl> back for a minute -- the cats are hungry
<Izunya> Joel: Yes. Especially in the US, I think, the so-called "mainline" denominations have been losing members. And they tend to have an elderly demographic.
<Izunya> (Oh, yeah. I'm back, by the way.)
<Night_Mare_chan> demographic?
<Night_Mare_chan> My vocabulary is kinda limited at the moment. ^^;
<@SLViehl> old people make up the majority
<RobertAndAri> They are having great trouble recruiting celibate clergy for Catholicism, sects with married clergy are more popular.
<Izunya> Night: Well, the people they attract are often elderly.
<Night_Mare_chan> Oooh
<@SLViehl> Jews are likewise having a problem
<Night_Mare_chan> Gotcha
<Izunya> It's like the way a TV show is "aimed," except the Catholics and Presbys and such don't want it that way.
<@SLViehl> I lived in the time when the Catholic church dictated what movies we were allowed to see, and not see. That's definitely changed.
<James> They don't seem to be having any trouble recruiting non-celibate clergy...
<Night_Mare_chan> You can look at it as a problem or you can look at it as change. Some things have a difficult time changing
<Izunya> Some of the groups that are growing are the ones with some strong, black-and-white sort of beliefs. (Not racial issues; right-and-wrong sort of thing.)
<Jinx> Back
<@SLViehl> Religions have to change with civilizations, or risk dwindling away to nothing
<James> Well, uncertain times make certainties more attractive to some people.
<Night_Mare_chan> That's true
<RobertAndAri> Julian May did a plausible catholic extrapolation with dramatic changes in church policy and some things unchanging by tradition.
<@SLViehl> Fundamentalism thrives in difficult times, true James
<@SLViehl> brb
<Night_Mare_chan> It's no wonder Jews are having problems. They tend to be stiff-necked. ^^;
<Izunya> On the other side of the spectrum, there are people (in a minority, but still) who are trying to figure out something very different. The Wiccans, for example.
<Joel A> Same with cultures. I recently read a report that many Japanese youth are less and less subscribing to the traditional roles on husband and wife. Many men and women, for instance, plan to "job hop" and remain single (but not celibate
)
<James> Do you think their plans will survive contact with the enemy, so to speak? Hippies, after all, were going to save the world...
<Izunya> Who sometimes draw some of
their energy from the fact that the greater part of society finds them a little odd.
<Night_Mare_chan> Izzy...isn't Wiccan kind of an old religion with a new spin?
<RobertAndAri> There's a common modern custom that adults reasonably have sex with their dates at whatever socially appropriate level of intimacy and that's okay. Yes, Night, it's based on European paganism. Modern Version except for
our fundies.
<@SLViehl> back -- and last call for fast breaks to the fridge
<Anne_Marble> If you really want to screw things up, throw in magic. :-> Then you have the equivalent of powerful science in a world that is probably not ready for it.
<@SLViehl> Magic is the science of a world without science
<Joel A> Why does magic have to be like since, Anne, Sheila? Historically, it was more akin to religion.
<RobertAndAri> Magic is self limiting in ways science isn't. Magic often has embedded ethics in its uses.
<Sarah> Grrr... this oughta convince the grant committee that I need a new computer. Gunter won't print a copy without making at least one line wonky. <sigh>
<Joel A> Sorry. Like "science." I think that's a very Western view of magic.
<Night_Mare_chan> Doesn't science have ethics too?
<Izunya> Night: That's a long story. A lot of believers say it is . . . but many people say that Wicca was pretty much assembled by a man named Gardner, who drew on a variety of traditions and remnants of Paganism. (Gardner was English, by the way.) And modern Wiccans tend to be very eclectic.
<Anne_Marble> It depends on the world. Some worlds regulate their magic, some don't.
<James> But in a fantasy world, Joel, magic is apt to be real, with rules that can be learned in a manner analogous to the 'scientific' rules of our universe.
<RobertAndAri> Most folk tales about sorcerors like Sorceror's Apprentice are little ethics discussions relating to scientific thought, to value neutral knowledge and its applications.
<Jehane> NIght: the issue of science and ethics is controversial
<@SLViehl> Science is the force of change in our world. Magic can readily take its place
<Joel A> People have ethics, Night. Science is just a tool. Science points out, "The earth goes around the sun." People say, "no, you heretic! Die!"
<Anne_Marble> In Doranna Durgin's first book, the magic was so advanced that they didn't need science. A simple spell could give you good vision. So their world looked Medieval but had all the cmorts.
<Jehane> ethics tends to be very personal, so what one thinks is perfectly ethical, another will think is an abomination
<Sarah> NMC> science has ethics but few people agree on where to draw the lines.
<@SLViehl> Science to a caveman is magic.
<RobertAndAri> Anne that's style and I could live it this August at Pennsic.
<James> Science, at it's heart, is a method for learning new things about the universe -- so magic is probably more akin to technology.
<Izunya> Jehane: Well, some people say that ethics is a societal thing, and the personal term is "morals."
<RobertAndAri> Sheila, you are so right. But a computer that refuses to obey bad orders like 'build and set off a nuke' will have some of the moral qualities of some magic systems.
<Anne_Marble> cmorts = comforts But... a handgun was a powerful tool because the magic was heavily regulated, so a gun (from our world) could give them power without the danger of a spell being detected.
<Izunya> I have morals, we have ethics, the government has laws. We hope.
<@SLViehl> Boy, could we get into a debate about this.
<RobertAndAri> One of my cultures built its powerful weapons with minds so that they'd know how to refuse bad orders.
<Joel A> For another session, Sheila?
<Izunya> RobertAndAri: Boy, is that a fun can of worms . . .
<Night_Mare_chan> Really. ^^;
<Joel A> BRB
<RobertAndAri> I've been having fun for LOTS of books with it!
<@SLViehl> Definitely, Joel. And one announcement before we return to our regularly scheduled program:
<@SLViehl> Holly has approved me to run topical sessions, like this one, starting on Saturday nights in February
<Kaelle> Great!
<RobertAndAri> Yayyyy! <hoots, sets off fireworks, purrs, jumps around waving catnip mousie!>
<@SLViehl> While we'll continue to have the writer's think tank every Friday night, I'll be hosting teaching sessions on Saturday
<Night_Mare_chan> Keep all hands and feet inside the discussion and enjoy the ride
<Night_Mare_chan> Kick!
<labloch> Thanks Sheila!
<James> Sounds good to me
<Izunya> Oo! Cool!
<Anne_Marble> Yay
<Jehane> cool. look forward to it
<Night_Mare_chan> That'll be fun. ^_~
<Jinx> Wow!
<Night_Mare_chan>
ducks a firework
<@SLViehl> Suggestions for topics are welcome, e-mail me at SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<RobertAndAri> <corkscrewing tail outside the ride>
<Izunya> You will see much of me.
<BJ Steeves> Cool..Right after football season ends!
<Gayle> sounds interesting...guess we'll have to move our full movie night to another night...
<RobertAndAri> Thank you, Sheila! Purr purr boingy purring
<@SLViehl> Same time, too -- 9 to 11 pm EST on Saturdays
<Night_Mare_chan> Speaking of which...I had this funny mental image of the 'Elixer of Life' making the emperor explode. lol. Back to the drawing board...
<@SLViehl> lol Night
<Gayle> lol
<Izunya> Night: <snerk>
<Kaelle> lol
<RobertAndAri> There was a good recent thriller with a secret formula that the Immortal Emperor folks actually discovered being rediscovered bya Chinese biologist and spies trying to steal it...
<labloch> lol Night--considering some Chinese wines NEED to be set on fire before they're drinkable, a distinct possibility...
<RobertAndAri> lol Night - write that!
<Izunya> Okay, now I have an image of the elixer of life being made by Marvin the Martian . . .
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's wrap up the rest of history
<Night_Mare_chan> The secret to immortality is not dying....
<Kaelle> <lol, Izunya>
<Joel A> Go ahead, Sheila.
<James> In 45 minutes?
<@SLViehl> There's a potential Hitler and Ghandi in every culture -- how to balance both
<@SLViehl> (hey, I can type fast, James)
<Jehane> (Gandhi)
<James> See, if you'd been god, we could have had two days of rest
<Joel A> Gandhi
<@SLViehl> All civilizations have at some time charismatic leaders who create sweeping social change, like Hitler and Ghandi
<@SLViehl> Gandi (I am the world's worst speller)
<@SLViehl> Gandhi
<Joel A> Gandhi
<James> Bathoscape.
<@SLViehl> I'll get it eventually, lol
<Night_Mare_chan> lol James
<Joel A> "Bathoscape"?
<James> Bloody Word spellchecker
<Night_Mare_chan>
has a distinct feeling of deja vu
<James> Deja vu anyone?
<RobertAndAri> Not a deep sea diving machine, but a scope for observing nudist colonies...
<Anne_Marble> Just call him "Mahatma Baby"
<Izunya> What is this . . . bathoscape . . . of which you speak?
<Jehane> lol
<@SLViehl> Keep in mind that these same civilizations would have crumbled into ruins, had they been run by a succession of 20 Hitlers, or 20 Gandhis
<James> Sorry, Izunya. Being merely deeply silly. I shall stop now
<@SLViehl> The Roman empire again is a wonderful example of what can happen with really bad leadership over a period of time.
<Izunya> James: I approve of deeply silly . . . but we should probably shut up for the time being.
<@SLViehl> Balance out your good guys with your bad guys.
<@SLViehl> And remember, every Gandhi has a little Hitler in him. And vice-versa.
<@SLViehl> Interesting Periods/Civilizations/Events
<@SLViehl> Major civilizations have been well-looted by authors over the years. Yet some cultures seem to lack appeal or be missed, until someone capitalizes on them in a big way.
<@SLViehl> Perfect example: Gary Jennings with his exhaustive novel "Aztec"
<@SLViehl> Before Jennings, there were a few novels here and there, but no one ever gotten into the culture before in such a huge way
<@SLViehl> nor were they as well backed up by the publisher as Jennings was
<@SLViehl> Now we have innovative authors like Jean Auel and Stephen Baxter raiding history in ways that haven't been explored before
<@SLViehl> Clan of the Cave Bear forever changed the way we think of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man
<@SLViehl> and Darryl Hannah, for that matter
<Joel A> <snort
>
<RobertAndAri> lol - but it was a good movie.
<Jehane> ?
<James>
<Joel A> Jehane, Darryl Hannah played the lead in the movie adaptation.
<@SLViehl> Baxter's "Silverhair", an extremely violent epic about wooli mammoths surviving unnoticed since the last ice age on an island north of Siberia, also broke new ground
<@SLViehl> wooli=wooly
<@SLViehl> These are authors who take chances in a big way with history -- really, alternate history or timeline history or historic fiction, however you want to quantify it
<@SLViehl> You can do the same with your world building. Learn from what the bestselling authors do. They go for the epic, the big, sweeping story, and they do it unlike the pack
<RobertAndAri> James Michener's defintiely bestselling "place" novels seem to be infodump interspersed with a few key short stories.
<@SLViehl> And while you're creating history for your world, however you chose to craft it, try a foolproof way to see if your history is going to work for you and your reader
<@SLViehl> You remember the trick I did last time, with writing down all the most important historic events I could remember off the top of my head in one minute.
<@SLViehl> Now I want you to sit down and write newspaper headlines for the history of your world.
<Izunya> Now?
<@SLViehl> Here are some of mine, for my StarDoc series:
<@SLViehl> (you can do this later, Izunya)
<Izunya> (Okay. Might be better that way. Thanks.)
<@SLViehl> Aliens denied planetary residency, driven off Terra!
<@SLViehl> Brilliant scientist successfully clones transplant organs!
<@SLViehl> Creator catches up with runaway experimental human!
<labloch> (drat. gotta run. Thanks again Sheila for a great class.)
<@SLViehl> Bye labloch
<James> See you, Labloch
<Izunya> See you, labloch
<Jehane> bye labloch
<Kaelle> bye, labloch
<Gayle> later labloch
<Joel A> night, labloch
<@SLViehl> Once you've got five or ten headlines, read them. Are they all good? All bad?
<RobertAndAri> G'night, Labloch - on with the Discovery Channel teaser for StarDoc, Sheila! Neato!
<Night_Mare_chan> Ja ne Labloch
<@SLViehl> Is there a good mix?
<Joel A> Even if you don't use them in one's novel, they definitely provide a focus.
<@SLViehl> History is not made up of
just good or
just bad events. History is a myriad of both and everything in between
<@SLViehl> The headline technique allows you to look at your history in snapshots. You don't have to write them in the story, it's more a tool for you as the writer
<RobertAndAri> That one is so cool, Sheila. I love that exercise, it's helping me get a grip on mine. Thank you!
<@SLViehl> Your headlines are your historic barometer, so to speak. Look for wide ranges in the types of events
<@SLViehl> Don't make the mistake of writing "perfect" history. QUESTIONS?
<RobertAndAri> When doing that exercise do they have to be in order, or is it just 'get it all down fast and then sort'?
<Joel A> Could one base a fictional story on a real historical figure? For example, Shaka Zulu?
<@SLViehl> I put mine on index cards, Robert. Then I can swap them around, see how I like the timeline
<@SLViehl> That's called Alternate History if you change the events, Joel.
<Night_Mare_chan> Sample Headline: Emperor Explodes! Big Trouble In Little China...
<RobertAndAri> PURR! Thanks for the tip! Sometimes I have events I know I want in there
somewhere and don't know when and assume the When is nailed down When In Print.
<@SLViehl> Historic fiction if you don't
<@SLViehl> There you go, Night
<James> Joel, Guy Gavriel Kay does a number of fantasy novels that are slightly obscured, slightly twisted views of real history playing out in an alternate fantasy world.
<Joel A> Thanks, Sheila, James.
<Night_Mare_chan> Sorry, couldn't resist. ^^;
<BJ Steeves> Saw that in a movie once!
<Sarah> Joel - Vicki is writing a book about Billy the Kid trying to break out of Hell. Chapter one is on the SF&F board.
<RobertAndAri> Too cool, Sarah!
<@SLViehl> Now that sounds interesting.
<Joel A> Eek, Sarah. Thanks!
<Sarah> It's a good chapter.
<Izunya> Sarah: Wasn't there a "Heroes in Hell" series a while back, focusing on various half-heroic historical figures?
<RobertAndAri> Ophiuchi Invades Earth, Claims for Earth's Protection as Historic Ground
<Sarah> Izunya - If there was, I didn't read it.
<Jehane> Izunya: yes, there was
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, Thingie Morris wrote that series.
<Joel A> Sheila, you advised to look at the bestselling authors and see how they accomplished their twists. Besides yourself, whom are your inspirations/role-models?
<Izunya> Sarah: neither did I. I just remembered that it existed.
<RobertAndAri> Artifiicial Intelligence Invented. AI destroyed in Cyberwar. AI reinvented. AI destroyed. Rogue AI Discovered...
<Night_Mare_chan> lol
<James> I'm assuming that's a brooaadddsheet headline, Robert.
<@SLViehl> I read a lot of non-fiction, Joel.
<RobertAndAri> Those headlines repeat a lot of times, the AI's went underground repeatedly.
<@SLViehl> Turner's study of North American Indians had a big effect on my alien development
<Izunya> I guess I must be world-building in depth; a lot of mine don't make sense unless you know the context.
<Joel A> "Gods return. Goddess of Love is a happily married mother and madam of the most successfully bordello in the empire."
<James> MICROSOFT INVENTS AI would convey the same sense of AI constantly being up and down, I think
<Izunya> Either that or I'm just confusing.
<Kaelle> lol James
<Joel A> Thanks, Sheila. I think that's for all writers
<RobertAndAri> AI's own Microsoft. AI's sell out when OS too kludgy...
<Gayle> lolol robert!
<James> Netscape Says "Our AIs Just As Genocidally Monomaniacal"
<Jehane> <shudders at the thought of an MS version of AI>
<BJ Steeves> That's why I'm swithing to Linux
<@SLViehl> James Breasted's History of Egypt too. Although you probably can't get it, it went out of print 80 years ago.
<Joel A> How did you get it, Sheila?
<RobertAndAri> LINUX AI's attempt to rewrite human political philosophy on an Open Source basis...
<Sarah> Check university libraries.
<Izunya> And Mac invents pretty candy-colored AI's that artists like but programmers loathe, because they're stubbornly impossible to reprogram.
<@SLViehl> I collect rare books. Got it from a dealer for $15 after haggling for a day.
<James> People, I think we have a screenplay for Terminator 4 on our hands -- contact James Cameron!
<Jenny> How much did you save?
<RobertAndAri> Must have been fun, Sheila!
<Joel A> Eek. I'm a dealer, Sheila. Don't get near me
<BJ Steeves> DOn't buy a used car from her!!!
<RobertAndAri> lol James
<James> He's back -- and this time, he's flourescent purple...
<@SLViehl> It's been appraised for $500
<Night_Mare_chan> Crown Prince's Favored Woman Is Really A Man!
<Kaelle> Wow, what a deal.
<@SLViehl> (smirk) I hustled that guy
<Jehane> James: Terminator v4.0?
<Jenny> Oh my.
<RobertAndAri> roflmao
<Izunya> We have your blueberry Terminator, and your lime Terminator, and your Flower Power Terminator with extra features . . .
<Kaelle> Sheila, can you help me buy my next car?
<James> v4.1 -- 4.0 had some serious security issues
<@SLViehl> Now, since we're obviously running out of time, I'm going to warn you this session will be continuing the first Sat night in Feb.
<Izunya> Sheila: Wow.
<Anne_Marble> I saw a historical book recently about a spy who disguised himself as a woman, and then someone started a rumor that he was really a woman. So finally, he lived as a woman until he died, and the autopsy revealed he was a man.
<@SLViehl> Sure, Kae, be glad to. I love browbeating sales people.
<James> If you let him into your house, he'd access your address book and kill all your friends
<RobertAndAri> She said Hitlers and Gandhis in any culture. Terminator 4.0 said "I'm into passive resistance and nonviolent means of changing society" and defended well enough to pull it off!
<Kaelle> Great! I'll come get you when I'm ready. Thanks Sheila <g>
<@SLViehl> lol
<Izunya> I'll be there.
<@SLViehl> The trick to making a great buy is never be willing. Be very, very reluctant.
<Jehane> Anne: I read about a doctor who was a woman, but pretended to be a man, and kept it up until (s)he died
<@SLViehl> And look poor
<Izunya> Robert: a bulletproof pacifist. Hmm.
<Joel A> Sheila, a person can viewed by one culture as a "Hitler" and another as a "Gandhi," right?
<Jinx> Be ready to walk out the door. And DO IT, if you need to.
<@SLViehl> Sure Joel. Harry Truman isn't viewed as a Gandhi by the Japanese, I can assure you.
<James> So he travels back in time and refuses to eat until Sarah Connor kills herself?
<Kaelle> All great advice AFTER I've gotten my present car <g>
<Izunya> Joel: I would think so.
<Joel A> Ah. Good example, Sheila.
<Jinx> Oops. <g>
<RobertAndAri> rofl
<@SLViehl> Good point, Jinx.
<@SLViehl> Now let's cover one more thing before we run out of clock
<Anne_Marble> Jehane, maybe they should've met!
<@SLViehl> One night stands!
<@SLViehl> <g>
<RobertAndAri> Tries to recruit Sarah Connor to a sit in for the rights of his people's existence as people and to turn her vegetarian and nonviolent!
<Jinx> I used to be a buyer (as a profession). Car dealers hated to see me coming. <g>
<Izunya> Okay, I'm shuting up and listening now.
<Joel A> <shocked> Excuse us, Sheila????
<@SLViehl> aka long-term impact of major/minor historic events
<Joel A> Oh....
<@SLViehl> Major events in history never leave us. (9/11, for example.)
<James> Obviously your one night stands are more memorable than mine...
<@SLViehl> We are as affected today by the discovery of fire as the first caveman was. More so, with what we've done with it.
<@SLViehl> Yet there are seemingly minor events which have an incredible impact on history
<@SLViehl> Case in point: an English country doctor
<@SLViehl> The doctor notices some milk maids never seem to get sick. And they never contract a terrible disease that seems to hit everyone else in the country at regular intervals
<@SLViehl> He wonders "Why?"
<@SLViehl> He convinces a young woman to allow him to experiment on her son. Not exactly ethical, but she's terrified her son will die of this dread disease, and agrees.
<@SLViehl> The doctor infects the boy with matter from a lesion on one of the milk maids.
<@SLViehl> Then the doctor infects the boy with small pox
<@SLViehl> The boy doesn't get it, and Dr. Edward Jenner discovers the small pox vaccine
<@SLViehl> People throw rocks at this doctor when they hear what he did.
<RobertAndAri> Cool! So that's who Jenner's named after! Purr!
<@SLViehl> Yet this one man, with his one rather risky experiment, saved millions of lives. Literally.
<Joel A> Isn't smallpox pretty much wiped out across the planet?
<Anon_34> The doctor infects the boy with small pox?
<@SLViehl> Would we have the small pox vaccine, had Jenner never existed? Maybe. Or maybe small pox would be like AIDS, still among us.
<RobertAndAri> Cowpox, a related much less fatal disease.
<@SLViehl> Small pox has been wiped out, according to the CDC, Joel
<Jehane> officially, WHO has the only remaining stores of smallpox
<Night_Mare_chan> That's what I thought
<Sarah> My mother was apparently naturally immune.
<Blair> its called Micropox now, and it only affects computers....
<Night_Mare_chan> Lol
<@SLViehl> The cow pox Jenner infected the boy with first kept him from contracting the far more lethal small pox
<Jehane> lol Blair
<@SLViehl> Through out history, there are men like Jenner. These men change the world.
<Night_Mare_chan> How do you suggest we cure it Doctor Blair?
<@SLViehl> lol Blair
<Joel A> And women, too.
<RobertAndAri> Linux, at least according to my friend Dstar.
<@SLViehl> Marie Curie (sp?) is an example of a woman who changed history
<@SLViehl> Einstein
<@SLViehl> Salk
<Joel A> Curie = radium. Used later to fight cancer.
<@SLViehl> I know more about the medical guys than anything, but you get the point
<Blair> you cure it by creating a bigger and nastier one, and worry about ramifiacations later.
<BJ Steeves> IT is then called Microsoft Windows
<Night_Mare_chan> lol
<@SLViehl> The whole point is, remember that war and natural disaster are not always world shapers. Consider the one man, one discovery angle in your history
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Jehane> kinda like the warp drive in first contact
<Night_Mare_chan> Oops. I wasn't aware there was another session. ^^; I had to reboot.
<RobertAndAri> Sometimes the one man one discovery can be shown to 'would have happened anyway' like Darwin and Wallace... but sometimes like Jenner it might not.
<@SLViehl> We go for two hours, Night, sometimes a little longer
<Night_Mare_chan> Actually, I never thought about that. I tend to focus more on the magical repercussions on my society....
<Night_Mare_chan> Sorry for interrupting then. ^^;
<RobertAndAri> And sometimes the ideas come up and get stamped down again like the Jacquerie uprising for political ideas...
<Joel A> How does one write a fantasy where the main hero/heroine(sp?) where their impact is NOT save the world from the invasion of the Evil Ones?
<Izunya> This is sort of a general question, but what mistakes happen a lot with the history part of world-building?
<@SLViehl> No problem, we're a very informal group here
<Sarah> What's really fun is bringing back the person who changed the world 300 years after the fact and seeing how she handles becoming a minor deity in many peoples' eyes.
<Night_Mare_chan> This is ture....but sometimes evil is relative
<Night_Mare_chan> true
<@SLViehl> They try something and it fails, Joel. Maybe their failure teaches them what they need to know for a second try.
<James> Joel, have a look at Katherine Rusch's "Heartreader." A detailed fantasy world, but a small scale, human conflict at its heart.
<RobertAndAri> Very good show last night on Outer Limits (new show) with a Luddite terrorist who had a time machine...
<Jehane> Sarah: have you read Bradbury's Toynbee Convector?
<James> Oops, Kristine Rusch.
<Sarah> Nope, Jehane.
<Joel A> Thanks, James. <sigh> too many books to read
<@SLViehl> Mistakes in world building -- being too complicated for the reader to comprehend or follow. Remember that while you know everything about your universe, the reader doesn't.
<Jenny> I love that story.
<Joel A> And it's not necessary for them, right, Sheila?
<Izunya> Makes sense. (Also one I suspect I'm guilty of.)
<RobertAndAri> Is that a mistake in worldbuilding or in storytelling - revealing too much too fast instead of just having it all there in background?
<Sarah> And yet, Tolkien got away with it...
<@SLViehl> Also, the black and white variety of world building -- all the good guys on one side, all the bad guys on the other. There should be both on either side.
<RobertAndAri> Yayyy Sheila purr Sheila wise Sheila
<James> Tolkien was your basic literary Jenner -- the geniuses get away with everything!
<Night_Mare_chan> I agree to that! Being a good guy is relative
<James> Although, in Tolkien's case, it was often his fans who got stoned, apparently.
<@SLViehl> Success is not a given, if that's what you mean, Joel. Protagonists can and should fail. And fail again. And a few more times.
<Jehane> Sarah: it's about an inventor who had created a time machine and seen the world a hundred years in the future, then came back to tell the present about it. The story is about the big festival when the people are waiting to see him appear in the sky in his time machine, having got to that future.
<Izunya> Robert: I would think it could be either storytelling or worldbuilding. Or not suiting the world to the story; there are some stories that have to be more travelogue than action piece.
<RobertAndAri> In an epic series history is it okay to have author and reader change sides as one culture shows its nasty side and the former enemy goes into a cool phase?
<Joel A> Understood, Sheila. But to the point where they don't save the world the first time?
<Jinx> After all, what's the sense of rooting for them if they win all the time?
<Anne_Marble> That's one thing I hate about a lot of fantasy. "Kill the Orcs!" "Why?" "Because they're evil!" "How do we know?" "They're Orcs, that's how we know!" "Oh, OK!"
<@SLViehl> I like worlds that I discover a bit at a time, rather than in huge info dumps, Robert. That's why I prefer to keep my world building spare, clean, and essentials only, then weave in the elements.
<Night_Mare_chan> Exactly. I think though that demons can be considered evil, of course that's just my philosophy
<RobertAndAri> That's why Tolkein was a genius. I'll never forget two drafted orcs in Minas Tarath or whatever it was being scared of elves as evil scary beings!
<@SLViehl> I'm sorry, Joel, I'm not understanding your question.
<James> Rereading the Silmarillion at the moment -- the Orcs, as imprisoned, tortured and corrupted elves, are tragic as well as evil. It's not always clear in The Lord of the Rings.
<RobertAndAri> What if demons are programmable sentients and their great weakness is an inability to act against orders, a literal inability to act against orders?
<@SLViehl> Sure Robert. That's a given -- the Christians were martyrs and inquisitors, depending on the era, for example
<Night_Mare_chan> I suppose it depends on your definition of demons
<Izunya> Night: You could create a race that was entirely evil, of course, but if I were your reader, I'd like a *reason.* A demon is evil because it's a demon might not be enough.
<Joel A> My apologizes, Sheila. Most fantasies deal with the heroes/heroines(sp?) having to save the world from some massive Evil that only THEY can do it. While they can fail in small ways, I don't see how they can fail the BIG WAY and still recover and save the day.
<Night_Mare_chan> My demons are the physical embodiments of emotions
<RobertAndAri> Joel that sounds like a challenge I have to try in a book someday!
<James> One way, I guess, Joel, is that the failure leads unexpectedly to a world that's different, but unquestionably better?
<@SLViehl> In a series, you can have the hero/heroine fail and try again in book two. Some authors do the huge defeatist ending, and leave it there, but I think it disappoints readers. They need some kind of payoff.
<@SLViehl> There should always be, at least, hope.
<Night_Mare_chan> So there are evil demons that are the embodiments of hate and can't feel anything other then that, it's in their nature...
<RobertAndAri> I can think of a grand way to do it - Evil wins and in torturing the last hero to death is moved by this guy's martyrdom to some ethics, changing the Evil Overlord's personal nature.
<Joel A> Hmmm. I just thought of one such series that seemed to deliver. Moorcock's Stormbringer.
<@SLViehl> And as the saying goes, there's no great loss without some small gain
<Sarah> I have a story in which the heroine saves the world by destroying it.
<Izunya> Night: Okay. So, as a reader, I could buy the idea that all X-demons (where X equals hate, frex) are evil.
<@SLViehl> Sarah, you're wicked.
<Sarah> <g> I know. It's fun.
<Night_Mare_chan> Then of course there are the demons which are the emodiments of love which aren't evil but can cause some pretty sticky situations
<James> There's the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, I suppose, where the victories seem like defeats from a certain point of view.
<RobertAndAri> Just because a monodimensional personality seeks to recover and become more whole doesn't mean its' not dangerous in its recovery.
<Joel A> How about Barker's Cenobites? Sadist/Masochist to the extreme. Evil?
<@SLViehl> Susan Mathews is writing (or was writing) a series of books about a failed doctor who is forced to become a torturer. He ends up being a really good tortured torturer, if you like that kind of thing.
<James> My favourite version of that, Robert, is the villain who wanted to oppress the world with evil, then decides to oppress the world with love
<RobertAndAri> Not if they're just playing with each other. Just weird then.
<Night_Mare_chan> Because the demons cast their feelings onto humans because they feed off human emotion....
<Blair> Joel... maybe you could look at it like the Hero/heroine aren't succeeding in saving the world... just that the villian failed to some extent.
<Joel A> Don't know about that one, Blair.
<@SLViehl> Hey, my series heroine is constantly running away from her problems and failures. Like I'm one to talk.
<Izunya> Night: You might look at C.S. Friedman's stuff. She(he?) has a trilogy with a bit of that sort of stuff.
<Night_Mare_chan> I'll check it out.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe I should mention by depressed rapist gay barbarian again.... ;-> BTW I'm beginning to think the mage he rapes is a pacifist heretic who wants to change the rules concerning magic.
<RobertAndAri> She's wonderful for that, Sheila!
<Joel A> Didn't Wolfe write about a torturer, Sheila?
<Izunya> The Coldfire Trilogy, as I recall.
<Kaelle> Wolfe - The Book of the Sun, I believe
<Joel A> that's it, kaelle
<@SLViehl> You'll get more literati praise if you have a downer ending. Critics seem to love it.
<RobertAndAri> Shadow of the Torturer by Gene Wolfe and a series following in which the torturer wound up world dictator or Autarch!
<Joel A> by the by, i think i got lost on the topic. what were we asking questions about?
<RobertAndAri> I find that very weird about the critics, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> I read for entertainment, and since being depressed doesn't entertain me, I tend to skip those books
<Kaelle> lol, me too, Sheila
<@SLViehl> The one-man, one-discovery affect on history
<Izunya> Actually, that sort of ties into the dominant thread of conversation. There are some pretty epic trilogies where it isn't about saving the world, but about
changing it in some major way, which can be good or bad.
<Jehane> Is it ok to write tragedies?
<RobertAndAri> Likewise.
<Anne_Marble> My heretic mage is gonna really mess things up. ;->
Gayle I was wonderning....are we done?
<@SLViehl> Sure. Tragedies are just as viable as adventures. Not my thing, but nobody made me God.
<James> Jehane, it's ok to write whatever it gives you pleasure to write! Anyone says any different, snot them.
<Kaelle> And therein lies a story, Anne
<Jehane> I like tragedies, and one work I'm planning could go either way
<@SLViehl> Sure Gayle, I know it's movie night
<RobertAndAri> I think there's a difference between Tragedy and Downer.
<Night_Mare_chan> I don't know about my story yet. My main hero is not exactly heroic. ^^;
<Gayle> Thank you...night all
<Izunya> Night, Gayle
<James> Night Gayle!
<@SLViehl> Night Gayle
<Jehane> bye Gayle
<Night_Mare_chan> Oyasumi Gayle!
<RobertAndAri> Night, Gayle
<Kaelle> Night, Gayle, Nathan
<Jenny> G'night, Gayle.
<Joel A> thanks, sheila, izunya. that brings up the question: what about the impact of an ANIMAL to a civilization?
<Joel A> night, gayle.
<Izunya> Joel: You mean a type of animal, or just one animal?
<James> Or the muppet?
<@SLViehl> Little Fuzzy -- who wrote that book, does anyone remember? That would be an example for Joel
<Joel A> i'm thinking, for example, the introduction of the horse to a specific Amerindian tribe.
<Kaelle> Horses to the American Indians?
<RobertAndAri> H. Beam Piper
<Joel A> H.Beam Piper. Good point, Sheila. Love the books
<Izunya> Of course, just one animal can have a pretty large impact. The first dog, for instance.
<@SLViehl> Or plant, for that matter. Look what the potato did for the Irish.
<Izunya> One assumes there had to be a fairly small starting group.
<James> Anything which removes a previous limitation on human growth or movement, I suppose.
<Sarah> Cattle in Africa.
<Jehane> merino sheep in Australia
<Izunya> Rabbits in Australia. No-one said it had to be a good impact.
<Sarah> Just about anything in Australia (rabbits, cane toads, etc.)
<Night_Mare_chan> lol
<Joel A> cats to writers
<James> One Nation
<@SLViehl> Mosquitoes introduced to Hawaii by European man wiped out half the indigenous bird population with disease, believe it or not
<Night_Mare_chan> Joel, is that supposed to be a hinderance or a help?
<James> (Sorry, that's an Australian joke. Jehane's laughing
<Kaelle> Joel, cats are gifts from our Muses.
<RobertAndAri> And what about the impact of descendant species when genetic research creates the new sapients - the vast diversity of a species explosion?
<Joel A> LOL, night
<Night_Mare_chan> I can't decide, I have five. ^_^
<Jehane> James: yes!
<Sarah> Ooh, there's one island somewhere that lost almost all its native bird species thanks to one researcher's cat.
<Night_Mare_chan> We all told Robert not to go there...
<Izunya> (My cat weighs in by stepping carefully over the keyboard and eclipsing the computer.)
<Night_Mare_chan> ^-~
<Joel A> Hmmm. Jurassic Park is an example of introducing alien species to a culture.
<@SLViehl> or reintroducing, as the case may be
<Anne_Marble> There was a pope who requested that all the song birds be killed off in the gardens around the Vatican because they were keeping him awake.
<Night_Mare_chan> My cat only likes to sit in my lap when I'm trying to type....
<RobertAndAri> One step farther if raptors start stealing tech and learning it.
<James> Large, brainless movies too bloated to move, Joel?
<Jehane> James: that could be one person - dear Pauline
<Joel A> And David Gerrold is writing his Ctorr series about an alien ecology into competition with earth's ecology.
<James> That's the feral creature I had in mind, Jehane
<Joel A> LOL, james
<Sarah> (Anyone else get really pissed off at "Enterprise" when they do stuff like bring an alien slug and leave it on a planet, or let the captain's dog run around an undiscovered world?)
<@SLViehl> Well, folks, I should officially wrap this up, any last questions?
<Night_Mare_chan> What's the answer to life, the universe and everything?
<James> I'm tapped, Sheila. Thank you again.
<Sarah> 42
<@SLViehl> (imagining Sarah shooting Scott Bakula with a phaser)
<Kaelle> Sarah, Nah - I watch it for Scott Bakula <g>
<Jehane> 42
<Joel A> Could you give us an example of how you used a historical template for your novels, sheila?
<@SLViehl> That's next week, Night. lol
<Night_Mare_chan> lol Someones been reading Douglas Adams.
<Night_Mare_chan> lol
<James> Hey, no shooting Bakula until Australia gets Enterprise in February!
<Sarah> Scott's okay. I'm going after the writers.
<BJ Steeves> Thanks Sheila..Catch next time!
<Jinx> Thank you, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Joel, I've used sort of a patchwork of history and culture for my novels. Cut and pasting bits here and there.
<Izunya> Thanks, Sheila!
<RobertAndAri> Thanks, Sheila! I won't keep you up too long. Drop by chat though?
<Kaelle> Again, Sheila, thanks for a fast 2 hours.
<Night_Mare_chan> Excellent lesson sensei
bows arigatou gozaimasu
<Blair> thanks Sheila
<Jehane> Yeah, Star Trek would be much better if
we wrote the scripts
<@SLViehl> Thanks to you all, by the way, for spending another terrific Friday with me.
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<Jehane> Thanks Sheila
<Jenny> Thanks.
<Joel A> Night, Ms V...er...Sheila
<RobertAndAri> Thanks especially for Headline Exercise! I'll be writing a DSC Channel Clip for my universe and see what I get!
<Anne_Marble> There's a Star Trek novel ("Uhura's Song") where Sulu eats an alien fruit hands over to him. Spock is quite concerned when he collapses. Luckily, it turns out to be very SPICY, not deadly.
<Sarah> (Forget Star Trek. Watch Farscape)
<Kaelle> Next time, Joel, remember that apple for the teacher.
<Anne_Marble> Don't have cable. :-<
<Izunya> Sarah: I would tend to agree.
<@SLViehl> I'm going to feed the kittens then I'll try to convince Cato to let me into Chat. Didn't work last time.
<Night_Mare_chan> Ooh! I like that one Anne!
<James> I'm going to break for it -- I promised myself I'd finish rewrites this weekend, and I'm way behind! See you all on the boards, or next week
<@SLViehl> Night James
<Jinx> Night, all
<Jehane> bye James
<Joel A> I think Sheila likes creme brulee, Kaelle
<Jenny> Bye, everyone.
<Joel A> Night, Jinx.
<Night_Mare_chan> Oyasumi James and Jinx
<Anne_Marble> Bye
<RobertAndAri> Transcript officially ends. Thanks, SHeila, bye everyone!
<@SLViehl> I love creme brulee
See you all around the site -- bye!
<Joel A> night, robert
<Jehane> bye Jinx, Jenny and everyone else leaving
<Joel A> night, sheila.
<Night_Mare_chan> You still gonna be on AIM Robert?
<Izunya> Well, I'll be leaving too; I'll drop by chat if my computer cooperates. Which is not a given. At any rate, I'll see you all eventually.
<Jehane> Bye everyone
<Sarah> See you!
<Joel A> night, izun!
<Jehane> going to chat
<Izunya> G'night, all!
<RobertAndAri> Mailing transcript, so yes.
<Kaelle> Night everyone. See ya next session!
<Joel A> night, jehane
<Joel A> night, kaelle
<Night_Mare_chan> I'll go then before I'm the only one left
<Night_Mare_chan> Oyasumi minna-san!
<Joel A> night, night
<Night_Mare_chan> lol
<Joel A> LOL
<Night_Mare_chan>
bows out
<Joel A> *Joel bows back and falls over.