Professional Writing Workshops at HollyLisle.com
01/25/02 -- Submissions and Guidelines (continuation)
<@SLViehl> Tonight we're wrapping up the submissions and guidelines session we initiated waaaay back on 11/30
<BJ Steeves> Into submission
<@SLViehl> (smiling primly) thank you, Robert
<JoelA> "anticipation" Hmmm. Rocky Horror Picture show, anyone?
<James> That would be antici...........pation.
<JoelA> LOL, James
<@SLViehl> And when I went over the transcript, I realized the only thing I really hadn't covered was The Submission Plan
<@SLViehl> (see above)
<James> Mistress Viehl is going to teach us about Submission? Erm...
<JoelA> Coolness. Can we take pics?
<Robert> I've typed out the Whiteboard data on the Pad file to go with the transcript.
<@SLViehl> Stop. You guys are making me laugh so hard I can't type
<BJ Steeves> OK will submit!
<James> Sorry...
<@SLViehl> hee hee
<JoelA> Well, at least you don't have your drink coming out your nose
<@SLViehl> a-hem. Okay. Let's go
<Robert> Sez you, Joel, you can't see my nose.
<@SLViehl> The Submission Plan -- what is it, and why should you have one?
<@SLViehl> A submission plan is an attack plan. Your manuscript versus the slushpile
<@SLViehl> If you have only one strategy for one manuscript to send to one publisher, you don't have a plan.
<@SLViehl> You have a disappointment in the making
<@SLViehl> Hi Karen, welcome
<Kaelle> Hi, Sheila, everyone
<@SLViehl> And you don't really need a submission plan, truth be told.
<@SLViehl> You can just send stuff out will-nilly and hope something hits the right desk, an editor reads your manuscript, then runs screaming through the hall "Call the Pulitzer Committee! Now!"
<@SLViehl> but just in case that doesn't happen, it's best to have a plan.
<@SLViehl> Here's the basic ingredients for a plan: One: a completed story or novel, ready for publication, written by you.
<@SLViehl> Two: A presentation -- either a query letter, synopsis, or book proposal, on said novel or story
<@SLViehl> Three: a list of potential publishers who are most likely to publish the kind of story or novel you've written.
<@SLViehl> Four: A calendar and a notebook
<@SLViehl> Now, think of the submission plan the way you do job interviews -- you basically want to handle it the same way
<@SLViehl> First, pick out all the publishers on your list who accept simultaneous submissions. Hit these publishers first.
<@SLViehl> Mail a submission to each name on your list. Note what you send, the date sent, and anticipated response time in your notebook. Mark your calendar SENT (Name of project) on the day you send it, and REPLY (Name of Project) on the date you expect to hear from the publisher.
<@SLViehl> Like scheduling job interviews, you need to keep track of what you send to who and when you should hear back.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS?
<Robert> Should my agent search query go out simultaneous with publisher queries on the first round?
<JoelA> Sheila, many publishers have a range of dates to reply (e.g. will reply in 3-6 months). What should theREPLY (Name of Project) date be? Worst case scenario?
<@SLViehl> Yes, Robert. An agent can come in and rep you at any stage of publication, so you can send agent queries any time.
<@SLViehl> I go with the latest date possible, Joel, because usually the publisher does, too.
<@SLViehl> So 6 months in the 3-6 month scenario
<Anne_Marble> How many publishers accept simultaneous submissions? Or are queries different? (The wine product is getting to me.)
<JoelA> That's what I thought, too. Thanks, Sheila.
<James> Do you factor in prestige of the publishing company? Should you start with a suitable but amazingly prestigious company over smaller, less well known companies that allow multiple submissions?
<@SLViehl> Queries and submissions are considered the same thing. A query is a submission. So is a synopsis, first 3 chapters, proposal, stc.
<@SLViehl> Prestige is a judgement call, James, but I always personally went to the top and worked my way down.
<@SLViehl> Always shoot for the best in the business is my motto.
<BJ Steeves> Thought that was Blair's
<@SLViehl> Hi Sophie
<James> On the shoot for the stars because if you miss you'll hit the moon principle?
<Anne_Marble> Tor, here I come. :->
<@SLViehl> Nope, on the principle of I want to make ALOT of money, James.
<James> Well, that one's good too
<Labloch> Hi guys
<Anne_Marble> Howdy
<@SLViehl> The bigger the publisher, the more money you're likely to get. It's just basic business.
<James> Hi!
<Kaelle> Hi!
<JoelA> Sheila, let's say you send your submission to a particular person (the editor?) in the publishing company. Later, you learn that person has left. Should you resubmit your material.
<@SLViehl> I had that actually happen to me, Joel. An editor was considering StarDoc for publication. Then she got fired.
<JoelA> Sorry. That was supposed to be phrased as a question, Sheila.
<JoelA> What did you do?
<@SLViehl> Her replacement sent me a rejection letter before I could resubmit, but I was preparing a second proposal
<Anne_Marble> Roc has better covers, anyway. :->
<@SLViehl> I always figure the replacement might miss something.
<@SLViehl> Or the person who left dumped everything in the dumpster on her way out.
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila.
<Gayle> or took it with her to the new job?
<JoelA> Oh! Is that legal?
<Gayle> probably not
<Robert> Yes, if an editor likes you, should you follow the editor to her new job?
<@SLViehl> If you are not under contract to the imprint she/he left, yes, Robert, I think it's a good idea.
<@SLViehl> Now, about strategies for your attack plans in submitting --
<JoelA> After the REPLY date has passed, does one send another query to find out what's going on?
<JoelA> Oops. Sorry. Didn't know you were starting again.
<James> Now, Joel, you will have to be Disciplined...
<@SLViehl> Always, Joel -- send a polite follow-up letter inquiring about the status of your submission. State the date you submitted and the response time.
<@SLViehl> No problem.
<JoelA> By a seven foot tall Amazon? Coolness! I'm a major Xena fan
<@SLViehl> I've put four examples up on the whiteboard, and one for you to fill in with your own ideas.
<@SLViehl> Plan #1 -- Resume for Success. This is probably the most widely-used plan.
<JoelA> I can't read them. The font is yellow on a white background
<James> Really, I get cream on dark blue...
<Robert> I've got them on the Pad file next to the transcript .rtf file too. I see it yellow on dark blue.
<@SLViehl> Like I said before, you attack submissions the way you would job interviewing. With Plan#1, you use your publisher source (like Writer's Market) and pick out potential publishers.
<@SLViehl> I'll be listing them here, Joel, no worries
<JoelA> thanks, sheila
<@SLViehl> Figure how many submissions you want to send per week, and prepare them. Mark your calendar.
<@SLViehl> Keep good files and notes on what you've sent, when, and expected reply dates. This is the simplest strategy.
<@SLViehl> Plan #2 -- Matter Against Anti-Matter
<@SLViehl> This is for people who need positive ways to cope with rejection -- like me.
<@SLViehl> This was my plan.
<@SLViehl> I stacked submissions, and sent out a certain number each week. I also kept a few in reserve.
<@SLViehl> When a rejection came in, I sent out a new submission the very same day.
<@SLViehl> It means constantly refreshing your reserve stack. It means a lot of submissions.
<@SLViehl> But it gives you a feeling of doing something to combat the negative stuff.
<@SLViehl> Positive action against negative action. You don't have time to sulk, because you have work to do.
<@SLViehl> And I ended up never waiting on a reply to one submission. There were months I received literally dozens of responses.
<@SLViehl> It made me feel like I was working in the right direction -- I don't know how else to explain it but that
<@SLViehl> Plan #3 -- Flanking Manuevers
<@SLViehl> This is good especially if you work on more than one project at a time, or write in more than one genre
<@SLViehl> You send project #1 out to one publisher, project #2 out to another, completely different publisher, and so on.
<@SLViehl> So again, you're never waiting on one reply to one submission (I did this later on, as I built up an inventory)
<@SLViehl> And finally, Plan #4 -- Building Pro Foundation
<@SLViehl> This is basically the "Get your name out there" plan
<@SLViehl> You submit your work, but you also find ways to get your name and your writing talent out there in other avenues.
<@SLViehl> You can write articles for trade mags.
<@SLViehl> You can conduct interviews with established pros.
<@SLViehl> You can write essays about the industry -- or anything related to the writing profession
<@SLViehl> As long as you're showcasing your talent by writing, and getting it read, you're building a foundation
<@SLViehl> and one really fantastic article can lead to a contact, which leads to an interested editor, which leads to a contract
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<JoelA> Do you have an example of that last plan, Sheila? Based on your experience?
<@SLViehl> I know of one author who has been writing articles for the last seven years, and having them published in writing group newsletters.
<@SLViehl> Her style and humor made her contacts, who put in a good word for her with an editor.
<@SLViehl> The editor invited her to submit a manuscript. It took a few rewrites, but a year later, she got her first contract with said editor
<Robert> If you're prolific and like a particular market does "Keep Meowing Till The Door Opens" sound like a valid plan? Always make sure your favorite markets have something on their desk in particular?
<@SLViehl> You never know who's going to be reading your articles.
<@SLViehl> As long as you're not repeat-submitting without invitation, Robert. If an editor turns down a project, try another.
<James> If you count the slightly strange world of media tie-in publication, I know of one case where simply being on a mailing list with a pro-author (and having talent) led to a coauthorship that produced a published novel. (Addressing Joel's question.)
<@SLViehl> This doesn't always work, though. I tried forty-nine different stories with one editor I felt sure would eventually accept one. He never did.
<Robert> That's sort of the antimatter but targeted for publications I read and holding back particular stories that market might like, if I've got two for that market send one and then the next. I mean more magazines.
<@SLViehl> Good point, James
<JoelA> Sheila,for Plan 3, let's say you submit for both the sf and romance genres (like there is anyone who doest that
to different publishers and both say yes. Does one look for one or two agents?
<JoelA> And thanks, James.
<@SLViehl> One agent for everything, Joel. Save yourself some headaches.
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Why don't we take a five minute break now?
<James> Sounds good
<Kaelle> 'k
<JoelA> Otay
<Gayle> yes!
<Robert> Sure, but I do have a question. What did you mean by repeat submit without invitation? If I'm sending stories to magazines unsolicited, they wouldn't routinely invite the next.
<@SLViehl> What I mean, Robert, is if you send in "A Cat's Tale" and the editor sends you a rejection, you shouldn't resubmit a re-written version of "A Cat's Tale"
<Robert> Or do you mean querying and saying "I rewrote it, would you like anohter look?" I meant querying about another project after a rejection if novel.
<Robert> Thanks. What I meant was if they don't like Cat's Tale send them Vampire archives.
<@SLViehl> That's acceptable -- querying on a rewrite. Spelling out that you've rewritten it.
<Robert> But only if the project's substantially improved, right?
<@SLViehl> Send them anything and everything -- but don't send them the same thing over and over.
<@SLViehl> I've heard some writers change their titles but leave the stories exactly the same, hoping the editor won't notice.
<@SLViehl> The editor notices.
<Robert> I think they would, argh!
<Robert> I more meant that if a magazine editor made comments at all, take those to heart in writing the next story for their desk.
<Robert> Like if they said "This needs more action" send them a different story with more action.
<@SLViehl> The only exception to this rule are contests -- if the same contest is judged by different people each year, you can resubmit the same story
<@SLViehl> now, I'll brb, running for some tea.
<@SLViehl> Any of those marinated veggies left, Anne?
<Robert> New transcript file begins
<Anne_Marble> Only a few. <sigh> But I can pass you a Tequiza.
<@SLViehl> Bring it on.
<@SLViehl> <g>
<Kaelle> Hey, Sheila, that e-mail earlier tonight was just to say I didn't think I'd make it to session. Nothing important. <g>
<JoelA> Sheila, what's your pseudonym for your romance novels again?
<Kaelle> She goes by "Gena Hale"
<@SLViehl> Somehow it disappeared, Kae. And I'm glad you made it.
<@SLViehl> Gena Hale
<Kaelle> Me too, Sheila.
<JoelA> Thanks, Kaelle.
<@SLViehl> My StepDad picked out that name
<Anne_Marble> I couldn't believe it. I was driving home tonigh, and I kept seeing Journal of Biological Chemistry acronyms on the license plates. :-/
<Robert> It's memorable. I mentioned it to my friend Georgia the inveterate romance reader and she made me write it down for her.
<@SLViehl> It's Gena because he always thought I looked like a Gena, and Hale for Nathan Hale.
<Robert> I keep seeing characters' initials in them.
<Anne_Marble> GFP = Green Fluorescent Protein. Jak = Some protein or another
<@SLViehl> I think Anne's been working too hard.
<JoelA> Oh! I meant to ask you, Sheila. I recently met Ms Robin Hobb at a book signing. I asked her why the second pseudonym. Why do you go by "SL Viehl" instead of your full name, Sheila?
<Kaelle> !!! I just heard on my radio station that a town in Pennsylvania's police are boycotting the YMCA Triathlon because they read Harry Potter books to the kids. !!
<@SLViehl> The initials are a small homage to Alice Martha Lightner, aka A.M. Lightner, who published under her initials so readers wouldn't know she was a woman.
<@SLViehl> She was the only SF novelist I read until 1998
<Robert> Remind me not to visit Muggle Town there, Karen!
<Anne_Marble> I heard about that. The volunteers are refusing to help direct traffice.
<@SLViehl> Oh, pffft on these boycotts
<Labloch> small question--your publishers didn't make you change your last name up in the alphabet?
<@SLViehl> Nope. Everybody thought Viehl sounded SF
<Kaelle> It does, kinda.
<Labloch> yeah, it does.
<Labloch> lol
<Robert> Right next to Vinge.
<JoelA> So "Viehl" is not your maiden name?
<@SLViehl> Nope.
<James> And it's short -- when you make it REALLY BIG they can print Viehl all by itself in four inch gold leaf
<Kaelle> lol
<@SLViehl> My name lettering is
almost as big as my titles now. Always a good sign.
<Robert> Sheila, nice Irish girl does galactic wars and massive numbers of alien species, worse than a Niven...
<James> I worry they can't ever print my name hugely on a cover because everyone will think I'm John Milton and become disgruntled because they've bought a genre novel.
<Kaelle> On my last visit to Waldenbooks, they had 4 of the latest Stardoc on the shelf and the previous week was only 1
<@SLViehl> You've got a great name, James. The heck with John.
<JoelA> Wasn't Paradise Lost a genre book anyway, James?
<@SLViehl> That's good to hear, Kae
<Kaelle> Hmmm, so what's the "L" stand for?
<@SLViehl> Lucky. Soooooo Lucky
<@SLViehl> lol
<@SLViehl> Lynn
<Kaelle> lol
<@SLViehl> Okay, that's really everything I had on this workshop. Shall we go to open Q&A or discuss works in progress now?
<JoelA> Wasn't Lucky the name of a character written by Jackie Collins?
<James> Sounds good to me
<Robert> I have a semi topical question
<@SLViehl> Go for it, Robert
<@SLViehl> (have no idea, Joel)
<Robert> How can I get in the habit of rewriting and prepping as often as I write? Rewriting seems to take a lot more effort.
<@SLViehl> Prep first, avoid rewriting, is my strategy
<Robert> Oh wow. That would lengthen my submission list real fast - just read through everything I've got and if it doesn't stink shoot it out, rewrite only if I choke. Hmm.
<@SLViehl> Harping again on pre-planning -- you know how I love to plan -- try to get your story down in outline, then really think about it before you write
<@SLViehl> I rewrite one time in the writing stage, and one time before I submit.
<@SLViehl> Make your rewriting time count.
<@SLViehl> Backtracking only means you don't know your story, at least, in my opinion
<JoelA> 3 drafts total, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> Yep. Two on computer, one on paper.
<Kaelle> Do your characters still lead you astray from your plan?
<Kaelle> Or do you whip them into line with your plan?
<@SLViehl> Sometimes -- and I resent it like hell.
<@SLViehl> If it's a good twist, or it works better than what I planned, I go with it. Kicking and screaming, but I go with it.
<Kaelle> Good to know.
<Robert> Have you ever taken something short and adapted it to twice the length?
<@SLViehl> I took a 3K short story and made it into a 120K novel, Robert. I can adapt
big time
<Kaelle> I guess, lol
<@SLViehl> But seriously, yes, I have stretched out stories to meet bigger wordcounts
<Robert> Yayyy! I needed to know that. My 3 Day is only 37,500 but I think I want to make it 75-80k before doing proposal etc. and take it seriously.
<@SLViehl> Are you adding more characters, or drawing out the action?
<Robert> I want to expand on some of the existing background characters and threads, show more of things like the logistics of the march and also draw out the action. I bought sticky notes to flag all the plot threads.
<Robert> I hadn't thought of adding more characters.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes adding some population lets you stretch without reading like you're stretching. You add new faces, new problems.
<Gayle> post it notes to make the threads...that's a good idea Robert...think I'll use it
<@SLViehl> Looks like Cato is sending us a message
<Gayle> that should be mark the threads
<Kaelle> Hmm, different colors - color coding
<@SLViehl> One thing I do is drawing out plot thread lines on my dry erase board, and look at them like a spider's web -- with the novel theme in the center
<James> You could also complicate the relationships between the characters you've already got: make two who are currently unrelated, say, ex-best friends who now despise each other, or what have you.
<Robert> I got them in five different bright colors because of something on the romance board of marking h-h scenes. I thought if I wanted to expand subplots, I could mark them each and try to give the most entertaining characters more conflicts.
<Robert> Hm. My Empress could grow obnoxious relatives. So could her lover
<@SLViehl> What did Raymond Chandler say? When in doubt, have two guys with guns come through the door? <g>
<Kaelle> lol
<James> This is fantasy. It should be two chickens with guns.
<Lucas> That's the kind of thing that I puzzle over sometimes, how to write stories with only as many events as other people seem to use. Some people seem to have learned to get so much more mileage (pages) out of a given set of events than I do in my stories.
<Robert> That wouldn't hurt at all, he's supposed to be her bodyguard so it gives him some action!
<Kaelle> lol, James
<@SLViehl> Ha, James
<Robert> So they're ninjas with swords or something, same general idea.
<JoelA> I curious, Sheila. What was the most interesting submission to a publisher you ever had? For example, they accidently sent a rejection slip when they wanted to purchase your novel, etc.
<Anne_Marble> Chandler used to combine short stories to make novels, from what I've read. He would use one as the main plot and the other as the subplot.
<JoelA> Isn't that what they do on television, Anne? For example: Star Trek.
<Labloch> Lucas, that reminds me of something Kate Elliott said about casting shadows. Make characters and events ripple, and explore those ripples and waves.
<@SLViehl> I received a rejection letter for StarDoc a month after it hit the Locus Bestseller list. That one was special.
<Kaelle> rofl
<Robert> ROFLMAO!
<JoelA> ROFLMAO!
<Robert> She could have a jealous ex lover. Or he could.
<Anne_Marble> Tee hee
<James> Now that's a gift from god
<Robert> Yeah. That sure sounds like it. That's worst case rejected StarDoc.
<Labloch> good one, Sheila!
<JoelA> And apparently the editor wasn't monitoring the sf world either, Sheila
<Kaelle> rofl
<Anne_Marble> Bwah hah hah
<Gayle> LOL
<JoelA> ROFLMAO!
<Anne_Marble> Well Zebra's horror imprint published an almost exact copy of Dean Koontz's "Phantoms" a couple of years after the book came out. :-/
<Labloch> heehee
<Robert> Oh, there's a show coming up on Sci Fi channel, White Dwarf, medic in space. I thought of StarDoc and a lot of readers will too. Subgenre growing.
<James> Hey sounds interesting -- is it a series or a one off, Robert?
<@SLViehl> Sounds neat.
<Robert> It was on Thursday night right after I left but I think it was a series.
<Kaelle> Canada had a short-lived series last year I just loved about ER in outer space, basically.
<JoelA> Oops. I wiped my chat window.
<BJ Steeves> Talk about adding insult to injury!
<@SLViehl> lol Joel
<@SLViehl> Success is the best revenge
<Robert> Would have been weirder if that was a late acceptance and they lost out. MIght have taught a lesson...
<@SLViehl> And boy, have I gotten a lot of revenge . . .
<James> Probably the sort of thing Australia won't get, or screw up if it does (you should see how they handled the second season of Farscape here).
<@SLViehl> We ought to tape it for James.
<JoelA> Write about it, Sheila, on the Discussion board on "what do you bleed."
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, I heard Australia thought FarScape was a kid's show because it's SF.
<Anne_Marble> What video format does Australia use?
<James> I.e. the withheld it for a year then transmitted the whole thing in two weeks, unadvertised, two episodes a day at 4.00pm and 11.00pm
<Robert> The only thing worse than that would be Lexx as a kids show because it's SF.
<@SLViehl> I bleed ice, Joel, I don't think that'd be a good example . . .
<Kaelle> Hoo hoo, Lexx, NOT a kid's show.
<James> Australia uses PAL, I think (mind you, I like Farscape well enough that I'd already bought the entire second season on video from Britain).
<@SLViehl> Well, James, you'll just have to immigrate to the US, that's all there is.
<JoelA> Bleed ice? that's a new one, sheila. so your not motivated by One Good Enemy (Holly) or anger (CRucker)?
<BJ Steeves> Yeah, just "hop" right over.
<James> Mind you, Anne, these are the people who took off Xena because it wasn't rating (i.e. it had lesbians in it) and replaced it with a documentary about outback train journeys...
<JoelA> LEXX is DEFINITELY not a kid's show! Whew....!
<@SLViehl> Nope. I am motivated by my checking account balance.
<JoelA> LOL, sheila!
<@SLViehl> Like I said, ice.
<JoelA> "cold, hard cash"
<Lucas> Hey, that works for Stephen King doesn't it?
<James> Don't tempt me, Sheila. I'm already thinking about it just because you seem to have a functioning postal service.
<JoelA> I think Mr. King is compulsive, period. So is Dean Koontz.
<JoelA> Read their bios. It's amazing.
<@SLViehl> And our libraries are even better
<James> Now that's just cruel
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, Dean Koontz was several years without a vacation, and what did he do when he got one? He got gum surgery and a hair transplant! :-/
<@SLViehl> Food for thought, pal
<Kaelle> Well, now, I don't know of any US libraries with the character of James'.
<@SLViehl> Probably because we demolish them, Kae
<James> I don't know any haunted mansions with the character of mine...
<Kaelle> Oooh, too true.
<Lucas> I thought he said something like he wrote because it paid the bills. But then, every aspiring writer wants to be able to say that, so who knows what that means.
<@SLViehl> Whatever motives you have to write are probably as personal as your sex life.
<James> Mind you -- the "Administrative Branch" (i.e. the library where managment live) just had $6,000,000 spent on it -- it's a palace.
<@SLViehl> Go for Administration, James, Lord
<JoelA> Sheila, what are some odd problems you've encountered in submitting to publishers? (besides them being late to reply....)
<Lucas> Motivations for writing. Vast territory...
<James> I believe to get a management position with us you need to have two thirds of your brain ritually removed -- otherwise, hey, I'd go for it
<@SLViehl> Finding out they've changed their guidelines. I think that's the biggest headache
<@SLViehl> (James is giving me Hannibal flashbacks, Euuuwww)
<JoelA> THAT'S a biggie. How does one keep current?
<Kaelle> Do you think getting info on publishers and editors might be more up to date these days with the internet?
<JoelA> Good point, Kae.
<@SLViehl> You hunt around, Joel. Keep checking the publisher's websites. Post what you find out on Holly's site.
<Lucas> Ritually removed. Does that mean people who start off with only partial brains aren't eligable?
<@SLViehl> Sometimes, Kae -- but only if whoever is maintaining the website is on the ball.
<Kaelle> yeah
<@SLViehl> I think they're the ones handling the money, Lucas
<Robert> Ralan's seems to be with how they kept up with my anthology listing.
<Kaelle> And making decisions!
<James> Pauses to contemplate Hannibal Lector meeting lilbrary management. Mmmm. Nice.
<@SLViehl> Like Penguin Putnam's website is sort of sometimes updated, when they feel like it. Argh.
<Gayle> lol james
<James> You'd need much more than a nice chianti to make them palatable...
<@SLViehl> Get the feeling James has some hostility issues?
<Labloch> Quick Q, Sheila--Is Onyx really closed to unsol MSS?
<Labloch> (as the rest of Penguin Putnam)
<Labloch> er...unagented
<@SLViehl> At present, Soph, I think they are. I can check with my editor.
<Labloch> ah, good to know.
<Labloch> thank you.
<@SLViehl> Roc will take unagented queries but you have to e-mail them in first
<@SLViehl> With Penguin, it depends on the editor.
<JoelA> I know you cannot name names, Sheila. Thus, in general, are there "specific" problems you've found frustrating when submitting to publishers? For instance, a publisher who tends to very nasty rejection letter, etc.
<James> Alas, Sheila, I do -- I cling to your advice about writing it down, making them characters, doing things to the characters
<@SLViehl> Tor/Forge announced they are "changing" their guidelines, but haven't said to what yet
<@SLViehl> They're a mixed bag, Joel. I got a rejection letter from an editor at Harlequin that was practically an apology. She loved my writing, but simply couldn't fit the book in her line.
<@SLViehl> I got a rejection letter from a SF editor who advised me to quit writing because I'd never get published.
<@SLViehl> Everything else sort of fell in between.
<Robert> More dirt eaten, I think... <G>
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Thing is never to take a rejection letter personally. These people aren't rejecting you. They're rejecting a thing you did. You can always do another thing.
<Robert> Speaking as an itsy bitsy small press editor I would never say that to the worst new writer whose cover letter's longer than the story and sobby.
<James> Mind you, it seems sometimes
they don't know they're rejecting the manuscript not the person.
<@SLViehl> I've run into a few editors who need therapy. Just like anywhere you work, there's always some nutcase
<@SLViehl> You treat them professionally, and you move on.
<JoelA> ??? I don't understand, Sheila.
<Robert> I have two words for them now "Your loss" and move on.
<@SLViehl> No matter how nasty an editor is to you, Joel, don't stoop to that level. Be professional at all times.
<@SLViehl> A good reputation is more important than scoring off some dork with an attitude problem.
<James> It's the only way. Getting upset about it just means they score against you twice.
<Robert> Getting upset and writing something because you're mad can do good story though.
<JoelA> Understood, Sheila. I'm just trying to figure out how an editor can be a "nutcase" besides just telling you, 'no.'
<Robert> "Quit writing and go back to playing D&D" - Marion Zimmer Bradley.
<@SLViehl> If you go to SF cons, you'll run into the nutcases.
<JoelA> What, robert? was that real?
<Robert> I half scored off her because my next rejection from her was "Good story, doesn't fit the needs of this publication, read a sample of my magazine."
<@SLViehl> Or if you send in enough submissions.
<@SLViehl> What was my worst . . . . "Your writing will never meet my standards"
<JoelA> Ah. Thanks, Robert, Sheila.
<James> Amy Sterling Casil says she attended a workshop run by Harlan Ellison. At the end, he announced to each participant whether they would make it as writers or not. That sounded nutcasey to me.
<Labloch> Oh, man...(getting out the teflon paint and novocaine now)
<@SLViehl> Harlan is, um, legendary for stuff like that. So is Spinrad
<Robert> Harlan was trying to shock. I met Harlan.
<Kaelle> Neither of whom I would emulate in writing, although I have enjoyed a lot of their work.
<James> It still stinks.
<@SLViehl> You
definitely should not listen to opinions expressed by egotistical writers.
<James> With is reputation, particularly, it lends his words weight.
<Robert> He convinced me not to become a scriptwriter by explaining the ins and outs of selling scripts.
<Anne_Marble> There is an anecdote about a famous musician who would tell students "You're very good, but you don't have the fire it will take to be great." He figured the great ones will strive inspite of that (or even because of it) because they have the fire.
<Gayle> well everybody...I have a young man in his jams ready to watch movies...
<JoelA> Night, Gayle!
<@SLViehl> I think it's a lousy thing to do, anyway
<Kaelle> But, Anne, that a good prod, I think.
<Gayle> so I'll see you all next week
<@SLViehl> Night Gayle & Nathan
<James> See you Gayle!
<Labloch> night gayle!
<Robert> Night, Gayle and Nathan! Enjoy!
<Kaelle> Night Gayle & Nathan
<Anne_Marble> That's true, egotistical writers forget there is more than way way of writing. Some of Ellison's writing advice should be buried in his backyard.
<@SLViehl> Always leave room for the individual, I hope I express that point when I air my opinions . . .
<Kaelle> I meant your example of the musician, Anne
<Lucas> I think I
<@SLViehl> What works for one writer doesn't always work for another. And no one is God's Gift to Publishing
<Anon_74> ...chat window's freezing up. Thanks again, Sheila, and night all.
<Anon_74> (sophie)
<@SLViehl> Night
<JoelA> Night, Anon_74
<Robert> Night, Sophie
<@SLViehl> Night Sophie!
<James> The trouble, Kaelle, is there are more things in the world that are beautiful than fire. Some things that are beautiful are also delicate, and they might not survive that sort of advice.
<Kaelle> Night Sophie
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, but some great musucians wouldn't respond well to the prod.
<Kaelle> Well, I didn't say it was a
great prod.....
<Robert> That's why I wound up treating the Launchpad submissions the way I did - it was like, I could go wrong being rough but not being honest but gentle.
<@SLViehl> I like that, James. That's deep
<Robert> It paid off because one of the best stories I've got, the one I'm buying this week, was one of the worst on the first try.
<James> Oh, hey, Kaelle, not blaming you or anything. This is just one of my buttons -- pressed at the peril of the world
<Lucas> I think I've some of the theory behind that kind of "advice", I didn't like it then and I don't now. There are enough clever people who get depressed from
decent criticism.
<@SLViehl> I know it's one of my goals -- to keep those delicate talents from being blasted away -- I hope
<Robert> I feel very proud of some of those stories when I know that I had scared new writers trying a small press the first time.
<@SLViehl> Isn't that kind of why we're all here?
<Kaelle> You're one of the perks of Holly's site, besides Holly herself and Zette, and a dozen other inspirations here.
<JoelA> <ouch!> Sheila, you just...hurt...me with those...words <last gasp!>
<James> It's the single, overwhelmingly greatest strength of Forward Motion, that it's a safe place to be a new writer.
<Lucas> Didn't Holly say that it took her five years to return to writing after her first rejection slip?
<Robert> Yes. It's safe to grow and mark progress and cheer and get cheered!
<@SLViehl> Holly doesn't bleed ice. She bleeds blood.
<Anne_Marble> Sometimes I think unpublished writers can be the worst critics to each other -- at least if they end up mismatched. (A writing list with a lot of mainstream people can be cruel to genre writers)
<Kaelle> Oh yeah. Like we're second class citizens, or worse.
<JoelA> On a more serious note, Sheila, is there any particular formatting error that many writers make that editors absolutely hate in submissions that we should watch out for? (e.g., using a different colour paper, non-standard font, inserting hundred dollar bills, etc.)
<Robert> Agreed, Anne. Forward Motion mixes genres - but labels, romance board not only doesn't have romance cooties but SF guys participate.
<James> Particularly, Anne, if they're all operating off different, half-remembered Rules of Writing, and determined to make everyone around them conform to those Rules.
<@SLViehl> let me pull out my list, Joel, got it right here
<Anne_Marble> Then again, I must admit that writers shouldn't join writing lists and then not bother to spell check! :-O They can bring some troubles on themselves just by presentation.
<James> I'm sure, Joel, they can't
object the the $100 bills
<Anne_Marble> (Yes, I am speaking from a case I heard of there...)
<@SLViehl> No colored paper. White only
<@SLViehl> No pictures, graphics, or cute icons
<Lucas> I can chant some of that one JoelA - Twelve point, double spaced, courior font on plain paper
<@SLViehl> No hand writing corrections on the manuscript.
<Lucas> At least, I think that's how it goes...
<@SLViehl> No submitting the manuscript in a pampers box.
<James> Oh, I'm terrible for not spell-checking when I'm not actually writing. Sometimes I re-read my posts for one reason or another and blush purple.
<@SLViehl> No stain on the manuscript (coffee, tea, etc)
<JoelA> "pampers box"? you're kidding!
<@SLViehl> Don't spray it with cologne
<@SLViehl> Brush off the cat or dog hair, the editor might be allergic
<@SLViehl> Don't send money.
<@SLViehl> Type everything if possible, even the mailing label.
<JoelA> "pampers box"???
<@SLViehl> There was an article by an author in Writer's Digest in which she admitted to sending manuscripts to publishers in pampers boxes
<@SLViehl> I am not making it up
<James> George Scithers warned against leaving a page upside down in the middle as a test to see if the editor read it all the way through. (Though you wonder about those who'd do that.)
<JoelA> I believe you, Sheila. Wow....
<@SLViehl> I've heard that one, James. Sometimes it works, sometimes the editor knows the trick and leaves it that way.
<JoelA> Won't that get an editor mad?
<Kaelle> A page upside down - I'm too anal retentive to do something like that. <g>
<@SLViehl> Most of all, don't send photos of yourself, decked out in a SF costume or something. That's just . . . silly.
<James> That's what I'd do
<JoelA> Or worse, sheila, nude. That's...tacky
<Robert> Please read the guidelines and if you don't understand them, query. That's my two cents worth. All that work's wasted if the editor says "no paper submissions, no attachments, plain text in body of email"
<James> Hastening to add, I didn't mean I'd send a photo...
<@SLViehl> There you go, Robert
<Lucas> Maybe a more subtle test would work to see if the editor read it. Perhaps there's a chemical which could be applied to the pages that would only show up under a blacklight, and only then after it had been exposed to air when the pages were separated. Any chemistry folks in the class tonight?
<@SLViehl> You can use a blacklight and some chemical to pick up fingerprints, I think . . .
<Robert> If they asked for the full manuscript after a presentation with chapters, I'll just assume they actually read it.
<James> Contact poison -- if you hear Editor X has died suddenly, you know he read your whole story...
<@SLViehl> Oh, and don't be cute or coy in your query letter
<Lucas> Not, of course, that I would bother doing that. But it's an interesting thought.
<JoelA> Like how, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> i.e. "Dear Editor, Enclosed please find the Greatest SF Novel ever written . . . "
<@SLViehl> or
<@SLViehl> "Dear Editor, I know you're probably sick of reading slushpile manuscripts, but if you have a minute . . . "
<@SLViehl> Don't try to be too pompous, or too friendly. Be professional.
<Lucas> Mostly what you're saying is Play It Straight. Ok.
<Robert> That has the tone of "I know you didn't want me to call at 9 o'clock.." or "I know it's none of my business..."
<@SLViehl> Be polite, be brief, get to the point.
<@SLViehl> Use a great opening hook line about your story. That's what the editor wants to hear.
<@SLViehl> And that about wraps it up for tonight, folks. Thanks for another terrific Friday.
<@SLViehl> Any last questions?
<Robert> Thank you, Sheila! Coming to chat tonight?
<JoelA> Is there a particular time of the year that one should consider sending material to publishers? I wouldn't, for example, send material that I knew could possibly be read in December.
<Anne_Marble> In Writer's Digest, they interviewed a
very prolific writer who admitted to copying action and sex scenes from his previous novels (adult Westerns) and rewriting them slightly for his new novels. Even worse, they made it sound like a good idea! :-f
<James> Again, thank you .
<Robert> Oh, quick question, do you want to drop in and be a role model at Prolific Workshop on Sunday at 2pm?
<@SLViehl> Tonight I've got to write, Robert, sorry
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila! Good night!
<Kaelle> Thanks, Sheila! As always, an informative and entertaining evening.
<Anne_Marble> BTW that writer later got blacklisted by the adult Western editors.
<@SLViehl> December is a terrible month to do anything, Joel. Wait for January.
<Anne_Marble> Thanks Sheila! :->
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila!
<BJ Steeves> Many thanks again (and again) Sheila
<@SLViehl> I'll try to stop by, that's my day with the kids though, Robert.
<Lucas> Thanks for the workshop Shiela. (I almost typed "workship".) This is always informative.
<Lucas> When is the scheduling for the Think-Tank going to go up on the calendar?
<Robert> Thank you - and thank you again. Transcript will go out when we close asap
<JoelA> thanks, robert
<@SLViehl> Also, one last thing -- I don't know when the calendar will be back online, soI'm going to post a schedule on the Class Sign-Up board
<Anne_Marble> OT: Today in course, the crazy school bus driver told the judge he wasn't crazy. <rolling eyes>
<Anne_Marble> in course = in court
<James> I'm going to scurry away -- it's 2.00pm here and I've yet to have lunch. Peckish, I am. So 'night all. Have a brilliant weekend!
<JoelA> Night, James.
<@SLViehl> Take care James
<Kaelle> Night James!
<Anne_Marble> See ya James
<James> I will, same to all of you.
<Lucas> Good night, or, day as the case may be James.
<JoelA> Have fun in writing tonight, Sheila. A new StarDoc novel?
<@SLViehl> And thanks to you all for letting me talk shop
<BJ Steeves> I gotta go too. Hafta prop up my leg.
<@SLViehl> Icky romance, Joel.
<JoelA> Night, BJ
<Kaelle> Take care, BJ
<@SLViehl> Hang in there, BJ
<JoelA> Coolness. enjoy, sheila!
<Anne_Marble> Otto Nuss. He sounds weird.
<BJ Steeves> Thanks all...Good Night!
<@SLViehl> Great name for a character, Anne.