Professional Writing Workshops at HollyLisle.com
2/1/02 -- Plotting the Series Novel (Final Session)
<@SLViehl> Okay, back, door secured. Everyone ready to get started?
<Valerie> yup
<pkurilla> Ready when you are.
<Jinx> Ready!
<Robert> Sure!
<Tallisinn> ready
<Blair> if we must....
<JoelA> but that's so...high tech, pkurilla
<Blair> <G>
<Sarah> Yup
<Anne_Marble> OK
<JoelA> let's party!
<Lucas> The resonances are in order.
<pkurilla> Joel--you're the one with the visor... LOL
<JoelA> LOL, pk. true
<@SLViehl> Welcome to Plotting the Series Novel, I'm your host SL (Sheila) Viehl, author of two going on three series
<@SLViehl> Last time we got together, we talked about how to plot the mid-length and extended novel series, and tonight we're going to pick up where we left off with a quick review on plotting the first phase in an extended series.
<@SLViehl> I'll present the material, then throw up a QUESTIONS and that's when to ask me stuff. Fasten your seatbelts, here we go:
<Blair> <click click boom!>
<JoelA> ouch!
<@SLViehl> We divided the books of an extended series into three "phases" to describe the main stages of a lengthy series of novels.
<@SLViehl> The number of books in each phase is up to the author -- can be five, ten, fifteen, or more
<@SLViehl> When you're planning an epic series, you need to establish your main series conflict in phase one, and yet you have a lot more room to do so
<@SLViehl> Unlike a trilogy, where you have only one book to establish your storyline, characters, and main conflict, in the extended series, you can take a couple of books to explore the "set-up" of your series
<@SLViehl> We also talked about waves and ripples in running plot threads, and how to keep them alive and vibrant while avoiding the episodal doldrums
<@SLViehl> So now we're ready to head into phase two of the extended series: the "maintenance" phase
<@SLViehl> I don't want you to think of this phase as something that needs constant fixing, when I say maintenance, I mean perpetuate
<@SLViehl> First, you're perpetuating your story, your main conflict, and running threads. Phase one was all about setting them up. Now, you maintain -- you keep them going
<@SLViehl> This does not mean avoiding resolution -- it means crafting your standlone conflicts to cascade into new standalone conflicts, and all should have a subtle impact on the main conflict. Subtle, because you aren't ready to resolve the big issues.
<@SLViehl> Middle-of-series is also like middle-of-novel -- you can run out of steam here very easily.
<@SLViehl> So keep your standalone conflicts clear, strong, and full of momentum for your characters.
<Catsb> (hey Tal!)
<@SLViehl> One way to keep everything under control is to define your plot threads on flow charst, and map them out before you start writing each book in this phase of the series. See where you're going with your ideas
<@SLViehl> It may ruin the spontaneity for some people, but think of flow charting as like a directions, or a road map -- they're going to get your story from here to phase three. Are they clear? Can a reader follow the chart? Are there too many twists, is the trip too complicated? These are the questions you need to ask yourself at this point.
<@SLViehl> Also, there are valuable lessons to be learned from "over-teasing" the reader as well as "coming through too soon"
<@SLViehl> Suspense is a wonderful thing, but not for fifteen novels.
<JoelA> Like Robert Jordan's WoT series, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> It's true that the heavier the impact of the resolution, the longer you can generally play it out
<@SLViehl> but you need to progress the novel series for the reader, or you're going to lose them.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS -- and Joel, I've never read Robert Jordan, anyone want to answer that one for me?
<JoelA> Neither have I, Sheila. But it's a LONG series.
<Robert> What about cascading after phase three, if the final resolution of the main conflict creates a completely different type of conflict?
<@SLViehl> I think Laurell K. Hamilton
<pkurilla> I can't imagine keeping suspense up for FIFTEEN novels.....
<Robert> I dragged out the Great War between a couple of major interdimensional superpowers and it got resolved - to cold war, which would emphasize the spy-assassin element a lot and has plenty of potential.
<@SLViehl> Try that again -- Laurell K. Hamilton has done pretty well with her Anita Blake series, until the last two books
<pkurilla> What kind of main conflicts can sustain an extended series, Sheila?
<Robert> Should I just call the cold war post resolution books a new series? Even if some of the characters from the previous big long series are still around and politically active?
<@SLViehl> That, Robert, would be cascading into series #2 -- like Deep Space Nine came off Star Trel TNG
<@SLViehl> Sure. When you end a series, you don't have to kill everyone off and never, never visit that universe again.
<@SLViehl> The idea of ending a series is to resolve the main conflict.
<Robert> That's the point I'm at - and that means with those books I'm in phase ONE again and need to establish that Cold War solidly.
<@SLViehl> If you don't resolve it, then you've got an open-ended series, which is the next topic of discussion
<Kay> Meaning, Sheila, in the Hamilton case, that she's stalled out because she can't decide between Jean Claude and Richard?
<@SLViehl> I think big, epic conflicts are best for maintaining an extended series, Pk. They don't have to be epic size-wise, but they need to be concept large -- something that will have a huge impact on the reader.
<Catsb> I actually started that series with the 2nd to last book, then read all the others. I think the latest one though, was really disjointed and confused. Like she had to make a deadline and had a bunch of pieces that she melded together.
<@SLViehl> I think Laurell got mixed up on her series, because she's really waffling around a lot, and I never got that feeling from her early books in the series.
<pkurilla> Thanks.
<JoelA> Sheila, mystery authors Joseph Hansen and Michael Nava had their detectives solve mysteries while finding/losing loved ones, grow old themselves, then die, ending the series. Is that an example you are talking about?
<Lucas> What's an example of a series (Sci-Fi or Fantasy, otherwise I probably won't recognize it) that had good middle/maintenance books?
<pkurilla> Yum... Hubby just brought me dinner.
<@SLViehl> That's one way to manage an extended series, Joel -- by tailoring it to the lifetime of your protagonist. Those are series with chronological versus hub themes
<Robert> Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean Auel - the middle books are all fantastic in themselves and move the plot forward toward an inevitable point AYla meets Jondalar's family.
<@SLViehl> I think William Fortschen's Lost Regiment books are excellent all the way through -- good example of a strong middle writer
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> consistency is the key when you're writing an extended series -- all the books should have equal weight, plot-wise, and main conflict wise
<@SLViehl> Any other questions?
<JoelA> How about the Dune series (includes the prequels written by Anderson and Brian Herbert, then the classics by Frank H.)?
<Robert> Is it okay to vary tone though - the book that's lighter and has more humorous elements, the volume that's grittier and has more gore and war, et cetera?
<pkurilla> IMO all the Dune books after the first one lagged considerably....
<Robert> Agree with you on Dune, Peggy.
<@SLViehl> Dune is not a good example of consistency -- the first book was phenomenal, the others seemed (to me) to feed off that first book.
<JoelA> According to both gentlemen, they have notes on the events after Chapterhouse: Dune.
<JoelA> Thank you, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Sure, Robert, alteration in tone is acceptable -- as long as it's not too radical, or you may lose readers
<Tallisinn> Ditto on Dune
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's move on to phase three of the extended series
<Lucas> I have read the Cave Bear books. I think you're right for the most part, Robert. There was, however, a time I wanted to smack the two on the head and say "You both love each other! Just get with it already!"
<Robert> Most of the differences result from what the standalone conflict is more than its relevance to the main conflict (I am grading my existing series as I can rewrite any weak parts of it in relation to this class)
<@SLViehl> The third phase of this series is the "extended countdown" -- again, you can have a large number of books to wrap up the end of your series, but you are heading toward closure
<@SLViehl> Two of the biggest problems most writers have with phase three:
<@SLViehl> #1 -- They run out of steam. Their final novels are flat, forced, and have no individual spark
<@SLViehl> #2 -- They wrap up the series then piddle around for two or three (or ten) more books because the money is good
<@SLViehl> You need to think about these two problems. You need to plan for them
<@SLViehl> As you progress through this phase of the series, start wrapping up your running plot threads.
<@SLViehl> Remember all those waves and ripples you started way back in phase one? Now is the time to ride them in
<@SLViehl> Your flow chart comes in very handy right now, because it will become a kind of schedule of events:
<@SLViehl> Book ten -- resolve hero's conflict with father. Father dies.
<@SLViehl> Book eleven -- Hero must avenge father's death, and faces evil empirial MegaDeath guy in charge
<@SLViehl> Book twelve -- Hero vanquishes MegaDeath guy
<@SLViehl> That's an example of using the waves and ripples and cascades to wrap up that particular thread
<@SLViehl> And finally, ending the extended series: the Big Pay Off
<@SLViehl> There is no way you're going to write thirty books and end on a whimper
<@SLViehl> We readers will hunt you down if you do.
<@SLViehl> So while you're planning all your conflicts, all your plot twists, and figuring out all your flow charts, remember one thing:
<@SLViehl> The biggest bang needs to be at the end. Last book of the series. Final chapter, if you can manage it.
<@SLViehl> Remember these readers have been with you all the way. Give them their pay-off.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Blair> does that final big-bang ending have to be a happy one?
<Catsb> I have one but it's REALLY basic
<Anne_Marble> Can you give us examples of big name authors who put out flat final novels or who piddled around?
<Robert> Thank you. Thank you for showing me the structure I've potentially got there - because the big bang final payoff of series one IS also the big opening bang of series two. Or could be if I show the same scene from two viewpoints.
<JoelA> Examples, please, of what you consider successful series of such a nature. Thanks!
<pkurilla> Y'know, it would be interesting as a technical exercise... not that you'd actuallydo it of course... to see what the big payoff planned for StarDoc is....We could then watch you build toward it with these techniques.
<@SLViehl> Nope. In SF/F, they like unhappy endings. Will get you excellent reviews
<Blair> cool... thx
<labloch> Please tell me David Weber won't kill off Honor...that would really suck! <g>
<@SLViehl> Catsb, you want to tell us your example?
<Catsb> How do you know that the story in your head is going to be a multibookseries?
<@SLViehl> Oh, hard question Anne. Let me think for a minute and get back to that one.
<Robert> Michael Moorcock killed off Elric with a bang when he fell on his sword after destroying all the worlds there were! The sword leaped off laughing and flew away to begin new worlds.
<Catsb> When do you look it and go, "wow, I think this needs another book?"
<@SLViehl> The absolute BEST ending of a series I ever read is in "I Dare" by Sharon Lee and Steve Miller.
<@SLViehl> That ending will total destroy you.
<@SLViehl> I loved it.
<Sarah> Catsb> I got to what I considered the end of the first eight of the book, did a work count, and realized I had a series.
<Catsb> Uh oh, does that mean all the characters either die or live miserably ever after?
<Sarah> work=word.
<@SLViehl> Catsb, (Robin, right?) I think you fall in love with a conflict and a universe and you just see the whole series stretching out in front of you.
<Lucas> It will totally destroy you. My, what a recommendation. I know, I know, that's supposed to be good, but it still sounds strange.
<Catsb> No, Shirley
<@SLViehl> But one way to check is to write a twenty-five word description of each book in your series.
<pkurilla> Have to agree there, Sheila... my single book idea became a five-book series almost before I realized it.
<@SLViehl> I'm serious, Lucas. I screamed out loud when I got to the end of I Dare. The cats went crazy.
<Anon_67> Big ending means big for the world as well as big for the character?
<Blair> i guess the question is... did you throw the book across the room, or hold it close...
<@SLViehl> No, a big ending doesn't have to make the universe collapse or anything. It can just be a huge surprise.
<@SLViehl> Blair, I may have this book bronzed or something <g>
<Blair>
gotcha
<@SLViehl> Lee and Miller are sneaky, conniving writers who totally threw me off track, which is why I screamed. I didn't see it coming.
<Catsb> Oh I love it when that happens!
<@SLViehl> Did I get all the questions, or did I miss some?
<Robert> That is so much fun!
<Lucas> Ok. It's just me observing that nowhere but in story telling would this be a positive thing.
<Robert> Is it fair to give the big blast ending of the main series a good hard twist in the jump?
<Anne_Marble> Can you give us sucky examples, or would that be mean?
<Catsb> I like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller too but I haven't read anything of theirs in a long time.
<@SLViehl> I think so, Robert, as long as it doesn't compete with the ending, or upstage it
<Robert> Peace breaks out, glasnost is declared, everyone's tired of fighting and gets to go home! End main conflict great War.
<@SLViehl> I'm still trying to think of sucky examples, Anne.
<Lucas> Robert - Glasnot?
<@SLViehl> That are not romance novels, I should add.
<Robert> Second series. Peace broke out and the two gate systems are as compatible as IBM and Mac so worlds collide unless they're still changing gate configs every ten minutes to accommodate bounce war!
<Catsb> Heh, I'll be mean and say Robert Jordan's series is a good example of piddling around, though I've only read 2 1/2 books
<@SLViehl> The Majipoor Chronicles. I'll have to say, Silverberg disappointed me on Valentine Pontifax
<@SLViehl> That was a total let down of an ender
<Lucas> Or even, (observing the spelling this time) "glasnost". What is that?
<@SLViehl> And he's revived it, I think, so now God knows what'll happen to the poor Greyrogs and shape shifters
<Robert> glasnost was openness and democracy in Russia once the USSR changed.
<@SLViehl> But Silverberg gets depressed, I think, writing his own books.
<Catsb> That can't be good
<Robert> Evil Empire mended its ways, Lucas, changed more toward ours.
<pkurilla> Evil Empire became the kinda bad, had a troubled youth, Empire. LOL
<Robert> Yeah. Agree with you Sheila - Silverberg gets depressed and ends on downers.
<@SLViehl> Another good example (sorry, Anne, I've only got good ones tonight) is Tanya Huff's Blood series. She's an excellent writer and maintains that series beautifully
<Lucas> Ok. Thanks for explaining that.
<Robert> Right, Peg - and in fiction in my series two, Once Evil Empire under new management is the main setting.
<pkurilla> Hasn't she ended it, Sheila? Haven't seen a new Blood title in a long time...
<Anne_Marble> Oh, well.
<@SLViehl> I was hoping she wouldn't
<pkurilla> Me, too.
<Robert> I was hoping she wouldn't. I love those books.
<Sarah> I can ask her if I see her again.
<@SLViehl> Most extended series writers are pretty good -- they have to be. No one is going to give you a contract for twenty books, of which only ten are good
<pkurilla> Well..... <eg>
<JoelA> True, Sheila. About Huffy's series. Hope one day she goes back to it.
<@SLViehl> Ooooh, Sarah knows her.
<pkurilla> Refer to comments about WoT above.....
<@SLViehl> Let's all kiss up to Sarah so we can get insider info. <g>
<Lucas> At least they won't do it more than once...
<Sarah> <g> She does Bakka signings. Wrote some nice stuff in my book...
<pkurilla> True, Lucas.
<JoelA> Bakka?
<@SLViehl> Any more questions?
<Sarah> Toronto SF/F Bookstore. All the TO writers sign there when they can.
<JoelA> What do you do when you plan a 20 plus book series, and the publisher cans the series after the 10th book?
<JoelA> Thanks, Sarah.
<@SLViehl> You always have a fail-safe ending, Joel. If the publisher is going to can your series, hopefully they tell you, and you write in the series ender in whatever book you're on.
<@SLViehl> I have a fail-safe for StarDoc, should Roc get tired of the series. I can end the entire series in twenty pages.
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila. Can you continue the series with a new publisher?
<labloch> lol...20 pages!
<@SLViehl> It depends on the terms of your contract, Joel. I was careful to keep the rights to StarDoc, so I can take it with me wherever I go. Always read your contracts. Never give away your rights if you can help it.
<JoelA> thanks, sheila.
<Lucas> That's what Piers Anthony is doing (did) with his Mode series, wrote the last book in what was supposed to be a much bigger series because they weren't selling. (I think he blamed improper marketing.)
<Robert> Purr, thank you, Sheila, you give me hope... that's what I've been holding on to because I put too much into my series to let it live or die on whether one book in it crashes.
<pkurilla> Sheila, should you have a fail-safe for a mid-length series, as well?
<@SLViehl> Most publishers are willing to go for two or three books under contract. So, unless they buy a trilogy intact, have a fail-safe ready for anything.
<pkurilla> Thank you.
<@SLViehl> How about we take a five minute break now?
<Jinx> Break!
<Robert> Cool. I'll wrap the transcript and start file two.
<JoelA> sure, sheila. get some more tea
<labloch> ok
<pkurilla> Um... I need to leave... my RPG game group will be arriving any minute.....
<Anne_Marble> OK.
<Sarah> (runs for the ice-cream)
<@SLViehl> Thanks for joining us, pk
<Blair> holy crap... where does the time go?
<pkurilla> So I'll catch the rest of this in transcript, and see you on the boards!
<JoelA> enjoy, pkurilla!
<pkurilla> Joel--Peg is fine, or Peggy, or PK... LOL
<@SLViehl> Have fun with the RPGs, night!
<JoelA> hey, blair! some of us have virgin ears in here
<Catsb> There's more? Cool!! It's just like a Ronco tv ad "But wait! there's more!"
<JoelA> <bows to Peg>
<@SLViehl> brb, putting the kettle on
<@SLViehl> Yep, we've got another hour, Catsb
<@SLViehl> brb
<JoelA> brb. bathroom break
<Anne_Marble> Cool, now I can write my letter to a credit card company that let a third-party spamhaus advertise them.
<Blair> Joel... Good thing you had to read that word huh? <G>
<@SLViehl> back (smacking Blair)
<@SLViehl> How are you feeling, B? (Should have thought of your injuries before I smacked you)
<Blair> Oh, Sheila... i shot some guy in the face for you on sunday... boy was he mad...
<@SLViehl> That's why I love you, Blair.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Blair> i'm good now... the muscles are relaxing now... i'm good.
<@SLViehl> No permanent damage?
<Blair> no
<Robert> What happened, Blair?
<@SLViehl> good. Teach you to skip Friday nights, huh?
<Blair> didn't happen till sunday, so it wouldn't have mattered either way.
<@SLViehl> It was an
omen
<Sarah> Karma, Blair. <G> Want some ice-cream?
<@SLViehl> Actually, no, I should have chased you out last Friday to practice more
<Anne_Marble> Oh, interesting. Someone posted the e-mail address of the lawyer of this bloody ISP. :->
<@SLViehl> brb, kettle's whistling
<Blair> I took a NASTY spill on sunday... landed flat on my back... woke up monday morning, and couldnt move.
<Tallisinn> brb...mine is too
<Jinx> Ouch
<Blair> been on painkillers since.
<Lucas> I'm back.
<Robert> Owww... poor guy. That's rough. Glad you're getting better though.
<Kay> Poor Blair -- Glad it's better now, hope it keeps on getting better
<@SLViehl> Last call for bathroom/beverages/some of Sarah's ice cream
<Blair> yea, it was nasty... luckily nobody got it on film <G>
<Robert> Sarah? Some of that ice cream, please?
<Sarah> (Passing ice-cream around) you'll have to get your own spoons.
<@SLViehl> Oh, and James couldn't be here tonight as his computer is on the fritz. Everybody say Hi James, he'll be reading the transcript (waving, Hi James!)
<Lucas> I've got a goofy thing that lets my phone ring when I get a call even though I'm on the internet. As usual, it wasn't a communication of vital importance.
<Anne_Marble> Hi James
<Robert> lol - I've got goldplated spoons now! Fate wants me to continue writing about sun-Emperors and sun-Empresses...
<Jinx> Hi, James!
<Kay> hi james!
<labloch> hi james! Move to the US! <g>
<Sarah> Hi James!
<@SLViehl> We've got to get James to immigrate. That's all there is to it.
<Sarah> Noo, move to Canada! We still have a queen!
<Blair> JAMES! I thought the room was unusually calm tonight.... :P
<Robert> Hi James!
<labloch> the same one, too, Sarah! ;p
<Lucas> Hi James! <wave>
<Sarah> That's what I mean. <G>
<Anne_Marble> Do you think this ISP's lawyer will notice if I send an e-mail right to him telling him I never signed up for these mailings and that his company is hosting a bloody spammer? :->
<labloch> Yeah, figured.
<JoelA> evening, james.
<@SLViehl> Mention class action lawsuit, Anne. Shake him up.
<@SLViehl> Okay, we're going to dive into writing the open-ended series now.
<Anne_Marble> I want to mention "confirmed opt-in." And "Terms of Service."
<Robert> Oh these are good, bright neon highlighters for markup! Going to make my plot charts much cooler!
<Lucas> That doesn't sound like a good idea. I wouldn't want to bark at a dog unless my teeth were as big as his...
<@SLViehl> Nice philosophy, Lucas
<@SLViehl> But onward
<Tallisinn> back
<Blair> you don't need to bark... just threaten with a big stick.
<@SLViehl> How to cope with writing a series that doesn't end -- theoretically
<@SLViehl> Of course, all good things must come to an end, but if you're very, very lucky, not in your lifetime.
<@SLViehl> When you commit to writing an open-ended series of novels, you're basically saying, "I'm never going to quit."
<@SLViehl> This requires committment
<@SLViehl> Think marriage for life. That kind of commitment
<@SLViehl> The way an author writes an open-ended series is different, too -- it's not a "beginning, stuff happens, end" series at all
<@SLViehl> It's "Beginning, stuff happens, more stuff happens, even more stuff happens, etc . . . . "
<@SLViehl> You're not writing toward a conclusion. You're writing toward infinity
<Jenny> (There's a nice motto--writing toward infinity)
<@SLViehl> This requires some pre-planning on your part. Think major pre-planning.
<@SLViehl> But it also means committing to a main conflict that can never really be resolved.
<@SLViehl> Because if you resolve it, you've ended the series.
<@SLViehl> The transition in an open-ended series is not in phases, or stages. It's in passages
<@SLViehl> It's a history that begins and never ends
<@SLViehl> The way you transition in your open-ended series is a lot like the changes that happen in our own history
<@SLViehl> There are growths and set-backs, changes in landscape and lifestyle, and civilization itself can even ebb back and forth
<@SLViehl> The idea is not to resolve, but to chronicle. To follow as a scribe would.
<@SLViehl> Inevitably, the biggest problem with an open-ended series is backstory build-up.
<@SLViehl> If you've written thirty novels, you certainly can't detail all of the backstory from each of them in subsequent books.
<@SLViehl> So you whittle down the backstory as you progress. Keep paring until you have reduced each book to a paragraph of backstory. Then get it down to a sentence.
<@SLViehl> And when you are setting up to write an open-ended series, here's what I think you need for the long haul:
<@SLViehl> 1. Painstaking detail and record keeping on each novel -- make your own running series encyclopedia, and keep it updated.
<@SLViehl> 2. Plot capsules -- brief paragraph about each book in the series, as far ahead as you can plan.
<@SLViehl> 3. Ideas for future books -- if you can't plan out thirty plot capsules, try jotting down notes of what you'd like to try in future volumes.
<@SLViehl> Once you've committed to an open-ended series, be prepared to be faithful. It requires a lot of work.
<@SLViehl> But if you're really going to do this, you've got to go into it willing to give it that much.
<@SLViehl> If it doesn't work out, you need an out book. Like the fail-safe we discussed in the extended series. You need a way to shut it down if, in ten years, it doesn't work for you anymore.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Kay> Open-ended series are series like Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe & Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot? I'd have thought of them as connected stand alones. Got an example of an open ended series?
<Tallisinn> Or Sherlock Holmes
<Robert> Is it possible to have groupings and subseries within an uberseries that's open ended - like you said, a history, expanding constantly with its ups and downs and continuity?
<@SLViehl> Sure. Star Trek. Battle Tech. Kindred. Xanth. DiscWorld
<JoelA> Darkover. Pern.
<@SLViehl> Sure, Robert. The difference is, you've got a universe instead of an open-ended series.
<Robert> Trek was hwat I sort of used as a structure model - because if I do this right I can continue series one and it intersects sometimes with the Trevellian Series and wildly intersects the end of the Lochannan Series, but it can go on - it's so huge, it's anEmpire of a million worlds rebuilding itself after inventing time travel because they always had it.
<@SLViehl> Remember, your main conflict remains the same in an open-ended series.
<Tallisinn> Holmes was so popular A.C. Doyle had to bring him back to "life" I know it is a different genre... but still
<Robert> Lovecraft was my other role model. HIS extended beyond his lifetime, so did Roddenberry's.
<Robert> I want to leave it so well made that other writers can carry on when I'm gone. Well. Without losing its identity.
<@SLViehl> That's something every writer may have to face, Tallison. I just had to extended a trilogy into a mid-length series (after I killed the central villain)
<JoelA> Sheila, let's say you write such a series and finally feel burned out. Can you transfer the series to another writer? If so, how would that work? (e.g., royalties, creative control, etc.)
<Anne_Marble> Don Pendleton did that with "The Executioner," didn't he?
<@SLViehl> The same way it would if you got hit by a truck, Joel, only you get to negotiate terms and make the decisions yourself.
<Robert> I've seen Moorcock pick up Elric again too. By the magic of 'prequel ' his great series ender stands.
<@SLViehl> Fern Michaels, who was a team of two writers, is now just one person, thanks to some negotiating after a creative split
<Robert> I think if I got burned out I'd go have an affair with something else and get far enough away from it that I miss it, then come back with some new element to deepen it.
<JoelA> Ah. Thanks, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> I read that one of the Fern Michaels writers literally disappeared, but I don't know if that's true. :-/
<Kay> So the difference between stand alones in the same setting and an open-ended series is whether or not there is a central conflict that runs through all the books, not necessarily a single character, but a single central conflict.
<@SLViehl> Exactly, Kay
<Robert> Thanks for the talk about commitment, Sheila. I've had my ups and downs with it but I haven't been able to let go of it for 25 years and i couldn't even write. 30 of the books are roughed and I don't see the universe ending - just deepening and broadening.
<@SLViehl> A series always addresses the same, main conflict. Same-universe novels have different conflicts
<Kay> Thanks!
<@SLViehl> Robert, that's exactly what you have to have inside you to tackle this kind of project. You literally can't see the end.
<Robert> Interdimensional diplomacy is always full of surprises and weird moral choices.
<JoelA> So comic books, for example, Sheila, are open-ended series since the heroes never really solve the main problem.
<@SLViehl> But plan an ending anyway, just in case.
<Robert> It's time travel. They've seen it, they work toward creating it, it's comfortably ten thousand years off but that vision comes clearer when htey win.
<@SLViehl> There you go, Joel. Will the Justic League ever vanquish the Legion of Doom? Of course not.
<Robert> From the far future time period the heroes are sacred ancestors who all went together in old age in a ceremony predicted in book two. They want to preserve that future.
<@SLViehl> And for unusual plot twists, btw, you can't beat comic books. They're like soap operas for eleven year olds.
<JoelA> "Legion of Doom?" Which comic book is that from?
<Tallisinn> Thought that was a hacker group??
<@SLViehl> That was a cartoon, I think, from Saturday afternoons.
<JoelA> Hey, I resemble that!
(the eleven year old group
)
<Tallisinn> but maybe they got their name from the comic
<Blair> They were a wrestling tag team years back....
<Robert> I think the overall series theme is 'do your best and do what you can, what's in reach. It adds up.'
<@SLViehl> any more questions?
<JoelA> Is StarDoc currently planned to be an open-ended series?
<@SLViehl> Yep. I have thirty-two more books roughed out, and three spin-off series planned. One of the spin-offs goes to print next month
<Jinx> <drools>
<JoelA> Thanks, Sheila.
<Kay> Yay!
<Robert> Yayyy Sheila! I am so HAPPY! Purr purr <bash> twine bouncy!
<@SLViehl> Hiya Jinx!
<Tallisinn> wow
<Anne_Marble> Hurray
<Blair> wow, thats cool.
<Jinx> Sorry, lost control when I saw the 32. ;-P
<@SLViehl> But I love this universe. I love the series.
<Catsb> Oh cool!
<Blair> i'm going to need a whole shelf just for you.
<@SLViehl> Not a problem writing about something you love.
<Kay> So do WE, Sheila, so do WE!
<Sarah> Thirty two more coming to the end of the book and going "Hey!"
<@SLViehl> By then Kathy will pick up and write them for me.
<@SLViehl> (Kathy is my daughter, age 7)
<Robert> Yes! And you solved an icky transition for me in the structural discussion, because if I view the whole as an open series, that jump to that crew is needed for that spinoff, but I can continue making the Trevellian Ambassador look a bit sinister whenever he visits the original hero.
<JoelA> LOL, sheila.
<@SLViehl> Thanks, Robert. Okay, let's talk about how to handle the plot threads in this type of series
<Robert> Actually an underlying thing is 'you get what you wish for.
<Kay> With a monster database?
<@SLViehl> You know in any other series, you've got to resolve threads, and start new ones
<Robert> Purr! Mine are horribly snarled and I think I'm hitting a point in history my heroes may have to 'unsnarl all the plot threads and rewrite history' again.
<@SLViehl> One thing I've learned to do is to "roll" a plot thread, instead of ending it.
<@SLViehl> What that means is, don't end it. Just look like you're ending it.
<@SLViehl> Always leave an opener within the ending that will allow you to unroll the same thread and pick it up in a future novel.
<@SLViehl> Thread example: In StarDoc, book one, I put in one line about Dhreen's people: They don't appear to age until they're in midlife, at 150 years.
<@SLViehl> And in all the subsequent books, I keep telling readers how young Dhreen looks.
<@SLViehl> There's a reason for that. The reader just doesn't know it.
<Robert> Oh neat, Alien Biology!
<@SLViehl> Another rolled thread -- in Endurance, Cherijo dukes it out with a Hsktskt version of Dr. Mengele and triumphs.
<@SLViehl> But Dr. Menegel escapes. Horribly mutilated, of course, but he escapes.
<@SLViehl> You don't think I'm going to pass up a chance to bring Dr. Mengele back for a little revenge, now, do you?
<JoelA> comic books!
<Robert> Cool!
<@SLViehl> That's what I mean by rolling. The Dhreen thread is kind of a seeding type roll -- I keep reminding the reader of the one thing I want to pick up in book five.
<@SLViehl> Dr. Mengele is the revenge-roll thread -- he's still alive, so I can still use him.
<@SLViehl> Never trust me. I am always plotting against the reader.
<Robert> Lester's a time traveler. Just cause we saw his death doesn't mean he can't extend how much life he gets in the middle between his assumed well hidden birth and that...
<@SLViehl> Use these type of threads as much as possible. Track them -- keep them fresh in the mind of the reader -- even if it means only a sentence here and there in each book.
<@SLViehl> The time to make transitions, and why --
<@SLViehl> #1 warning sign: you're sick of the plot thread. You're the author -- imagine how the reader feels.
<@SLViehl> Roll it, or cascade it into a new plot thread. End it as a last resort.
<@SLViehl> #2 -- you've explored this thread as far as it will stretch. Reever and Cherijo -- are they married? Are they not married?
<@SLViehl> I stretched that out for four books. Enough already. They're married.
<JoelA> LOL
<@SLViehl> But I rolled it into a plot twist for book six.
<Jinx> Oooh!
<Robert> Cool! Can't wait!
<@SLViehl> Major plot twist. Everyone will hate me for this one.
<Catsb> Uh oh
<Blair> i won't
<Robert> I won't. I love it when you sneak up and pounce on me and I should've seen it coming!
<@SLViehl> Yet it has nothing to do with whether they're married or not. It will simply affect their relationship in a similar way
<@SLViehl> Remember that you need to throw something to the reader every book -- give them something to keep them interested, and something to satisfy them.
<@SLViehl> Use your plot threads like jump ropes instead of brick walls -- keep the reader's imagination hopping, don't put it into a coma
<Robert> And that would include the same quantity of
new backstory with all the old stuff neatly reduced to little hook lines and paragraph references, right?
<@SLViehl> Exactly, Robert. You can actually turn back story into hook lines for readers who haven't read the previous books in your series.
<@SLViehl> And finally -- what is the reality of writing an open-ended series?
<@SLViehl> It means you work on it at least six months a year if you plan to publish one to two books per year.
<@SLViehl> That's half your year devoted to one concept.
<@SLViehl> I don't think any writer should give up on an open-ended series of novels, but there are times when you have to call it quits
<@SLViehl> The publisher cans your series
<@SLViehl> You grow into a different writer who wants to write other things
<@SLViehl> You write about something that abruptly goes out of existence -- like "Stories from Crossing Over the Berlin Wall"
<@SLViehl> If Mars ever blows up, boy, are there going to be a lot of pissed off SF writers out there.
<Tallisinn> lol
<JoelA>
<@SLViehl> Bottom line: write what you love, but be practical about it. If there's money to be made writing media tie-ins while you work on your open-ended series on the side, fine
<@SLViehl> Go for pay work whenever you can get it, but hang on to your dream.
<@SLViehl> QUESTIONS
<Kay> I notice we didn't actually SEE Dr. Joseph Grey Veil's clearly dead body in multiple pieces at the end of
Shockball -- we just ASSUME he's dead in all that mess.
<Blair> <closing eyes>
<Kay> question retracted
<Robert> Does that mean I should accept I made that commitment and treat contracts for one off books and smaller unrelated series differently - holding on to rights to the heartwork like devils wrote those contracts?
<@SLViehl> Well, Joseph was dead when they carried him out of the arena, and that's all I'm going to say about
that
<Jinx> I knew it! <warbles>
<@SLViehl> Robert, go with what your very fine business mind tells you to do, but keep a space for your creative heart. That's the best advice I can give you.
<Robert> You split your work day half writing and half editing. I can consciously decide to protect the unending seires by making sure I spend half the year writing other stuff that if it tanks it's less of a loss if I have to shut down.
<@SLViehl> Remember, Jinx -- roll those plot threads. <g>
<Kay> very generous of you Sheila, now, about those media tie ins, assuming one were both brilliant enough and lucky enough to write something that attracted that kind of interest, what would they be?
<@SLViehl> Star Trek novels, Star Wars novels, Buffy the Vampire Slayer novels, etc.
<@SLViehl> Anything that ties in with a media product like a TV show or a movie. The stuff all those high brow SF writers pooh-pooh over.
<Robert> Larry Niven wrote an episode for the cartoon Star Trek and did crossover, there were Kzinti in the Trek universe.
<@SLViehl> There's money to be made from those books.
<Kay> right, i should have realize
<Kay> d
<Robert> I'd do it as long as I honestly got into the series. Getting paid pro money for pro quality fan fic is how I'd view it - that nad being part of a group production.
<@SLViehl> Media tie ins represent 50% of the available SF publishing slots, folks. Something to think about as a professional writer.
<Robert> Sounds like 'sell the movie rights wisely and get it made.'
<Kay> are those books one writes to someone else's outline?
<Lucas> Ohh, now there's a different way to think abou it.
<@SLViehl> It depends on the universe, Kay. In Star Wars, you have to follow a certain chronology and character list, I believe. Buffy is also kind of rigid. Star Trek has more room to be inventive
<Robert> Pro quality fan fic is 'series canon is enriched by the addition of your little planet, your side characters, your new plot thread'
<@SLViehl> If you want to make a living writing, it pays to look at what makes up 50% of the market
<Robert> At least imho it is - I read ST books and SW books and so on at random and it's a familiar universe elaborated as shared universe by writers of varying skills.
<@SLViehl> And, hold on to your hats, folks, I'm thinking about putting in to write a Buffy novel.
<Kay> how does one get into that sort of writing?
<Anne_Marble> Cool.
<Robert> I think yours would come out one of the best in the pile, Sheila.
<Blair> thats cool sheila....go for it!
<JoelA> Cool, Sheila. I'm a Buffy's fan.
<Sarah> Yeah, you're definitely evil enough to pull it off. <g>
<@SLViehl> I have to watch the show a few more times.
<Robert> Id be MORE of a Buffy fan if you did! lol
<Lucas> I hadn't ever considered just how much of Sci-Fi was made up of media tie-ins. It's interesting. I mean, gosh, 50%, that's like, half or something.
<Anne_Marble> Yikes! the news thingie just said a traffic light fell somewhere because it's so windy in Maryland today.
<@SLViehl> Kay, you can find some information in Writer's Market. Most of these media tie-ins have certain editors, so if you go to SF cons you may also want to try to pitch an idea to the editor.
<Catsb> Hey Anne, I'm in Fairfax, VA
<@SLViehl> lol Kucas
<@SLViehl> Kucas=Lucas
<Robert> Have you ever had an offer for the movie rights to StarDoc?
<Anne_Marble> I hope a traffic light doesn't fall on you.
<Catsb> Heh, the lights were out below my apartment, I assumed it was from the wind.
<@SLViehl> No, Robert, I'm writing StarDoc as a TV show, as it happens. Pilot and four episode proposal
<JoelA> Sheila, in an open-ended series, can one plant "false" information? For example, in a fantasy universe, the series starts off where fairies are afraid of cold iron. Then, in book #, the writer shows that's not true.
<Robert> Yayyyy! Gods, that would be good, a TV adaptation would be fantastic.
<Lucas> Buffy, eh? I've never seen an episode of that, read a book of it, or anything like that.
<Anne_Marble> Coool
<Kay> NEAT! Stardoc on TV?! That would be fun!
<Catsb> Oh now that sounds interesting, I'd watch something like that if the tv people did it right
<Jinx> wow
<@SLViehl> As long as the "false" info isn't too deus ex machina, Joel -- the reader isn't going to fall for that kind of manipulation
<Lucas> Joela - Why wouldn't that work? People are wrong and superstitious all the time, this false info could just come from that.
<Robert> The biggest barrier to bollixing it is that Sheila's doing the adaptation.
<JoelA> thanks, sheila.
<@SLViehl> I don't trust anyone with StarDoc, which is why I learned how to write screenplays. To protect my work!
<JoelA> that's what I was thinking, Lucas. but fiction, unlike real life, has to have some semblance of "consistency"
<Kay> Would you have to do all the writing?
<Catsb> Good idea!
<Anne_Marble> Gusting up to 43 in Laurel!
<Robert> I think you could get away with a well laid trail of logic to 'but this is why this one is able to use cold iron'
<Lucas> You could always work in some underlying reason for why this myth has been spread.
<@SLViehl> I could share, Kay -- I'd like to have other authors write for a StarDoc tv show, I think it would be fun. But I'd want control.
<Sarah> Hey, that's why Joss Whedon went out and made the series after the movie. And why Rockne O'Bannon made damn sure he kept creative control of Farscape.
<Robert> Or you could
reveal "it's because they think it's so sacred they don't even talk about that" instead of an allergy.
<Anne_Marble> That could be a story in itself.
<Sarah> Anne> It was 90 km/h here today.
<Kay> Makes sense to me, Sheila. Keeping artistic control would be the only way to ensure keeping high quality.
<Jinx> That's really nifty, Sheila. Good luck with it (and let us know what happens)!
<Kay> Good scriptwriting is what MAKES Buffy
<@SLViehl> A question for the group -- has anyone tried out any of the series plotting templates I posted yet? If yes, did they help?
<Lucas> It would be the only way to ensure keeping sanity, I would guess.
<Lucas> In regards to creative control, I mean.
<JoelA> ??? what templates, sheila?
<Robert> Is there a regular rhythm to rolling plot threads? Always roughly X number per book?
<JoelA> i'm still fairly new to these conference sessions.
<Tallisinn> I have not yet..but I am looking forward to doing so
<Kay> A Stardoc Series would REALLY cut into your time for writing other stuff if you do it, but it might well be worth it.
<Jinx> Yes, Sheila, but very, very slowly. <g>
<@SLViehl> I have some templates -- outline guides -- on how to write different series on the Class Sign-Up board, Joel.
<Catsb> I saw the post but haven't really looked at the templates, I'm going to though
<Anne_Marble> Not yet, I still don't know what I'm doing with anything.
<Kay> I haven't tried the templates yet, but will look for them now that I know to look. Thanks for the tip off.
<JoelA> I'll take a look, Sheila. Thanks.
<Lucas> I haven't looked at them lately. I should pull them up and go over them again.
<@SLViehl> Robert, I think you need to run three to five plot threads per book, and roll at least two. That's my working theory, anyway.
<Jinx> They're really good templates. Makes me realize that I've not quite gotten it together with my WIP.
<@SLViehl> Like, 50% of your threads, if you want to go beyond the 3-5 mark
<Robert> Will you be doing one for 'open ended series' ?
<Kay> That's a useful guideline on number of plot threads, Sheila
<Tallisinn> Yes Jinx..that was my thought too
<@SLViehl> The open-ended series really can't be templated, Robert, sorry.
<Robert> Sorry, I envisioned one a bit like what you just said, in-book stand alone conflict, rolled threads, resolution of old thread...
<@SLViehl> It's like an extended series except you never go into phase three, if that helps.
<Lucas> How can you write a template for open ended series? It would read like: "Step 1 - Start story. Step 2 - Write. Step 3 - See step 2."
<@SLViehl> You could stagger the threads template I have in the extended series template
<Robert> Oh that helps a lot! Thanks. Right, the maintenance phase is the same - go forward toward infinity but just never get there.
<@SLViehl> lol Lucas
<@SLViehl> Any last questions?
<Kay> APPLAUSE applause SOUND OF HANDS CLAPPING sound of three hands clapping (squid lips) MORE APPLAUSE
<Tallisinn> Thank you Sheila... this has been very informative. I look forward to the next one
<Anne_Marble> Will my apartment blow down?
<JoelA> Yes. When are you going to stop writing so the rest of us have a chance to get our open-ended series on the bookshelves?
<@SLViehl> Okay, folks, thanks again for letting me spend another fantastic Friday with you
<Anne_Marble> Anyway, thank you thank you thank you.
<Robert> Applause, loud purring, boingy Ari, purr thank you!
<JoelA> Night, Sheila!
<Kay> Thanks, Sheila!
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Is the big bad wolf at your door, Anne? lol
<Catsb> I hope not Anne!! I hear the wind roaring outside my windows but I'm all toasty and warm inside
<Jinx> Is this truly the end of this series, Sheila? What a wonderful time!
<Catsb> Thanks Sheila!!
<Lucas> Just a note - I see that the calendar has the ThinkTank sessions scheduled now. Great!
<Blair> holy moley! where did the time go?
<Anne_Marble> Just the big bad wind.
<@SLViehl> This is it. If you have any questions about series writing, you know the e-mail: SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<Robert> When I put your name in dedications how many of your names should I list?
<Sarah> Anne> Tell it to get back here and clean up the mess!
<Tallisinn> Night Catsb
<@SLViehl> And when you collect your awards, the name is pronounced VEEL
<Catsb> Gnite Tal!
<Anne_Marble> I'll remember that.
<@SLViehl> snicker
<Jinx> Thank you so much for your time, efforts and info! <cheers Sheila>
<@SLViehl> Night Catsb
<JoelA> VEEL? Food attack!
<Blair> Pfff... i'll drag you to the ceremony, so i can point
<Catsb> Gnite SL!
<Catsb> Gnite all!!
<Lucas> This has been great.
<Jinx> Night, Shirley
<Jenny> Thank you, Sheila; good night, everyone.
<Catsb> Gnite Jinx
<Anne_Marble> I'll push it back your way, Sarah.
<Jinx> So, Sheila... what happens when someone pronounces it the OTHER way? <hides>
<@SLViehl> Night Jenny and Shirley
<Tallisinn> G'nite all...time to get to work.
<Sarah> No! It'll throw more stuff at me!
<Robert> They get smote or she gets them with a hypo in the butt.
<@SLViehl> I giggle, Jinx -- it's my exhusband's name, after all
<Jinx> LOL
<Robert> rofl
<@SLViehl> There's the ultimate irony, folks -- you get famous with your exhusband's name
<Lucas> Whao. Heh.
<JoelA> Hey, as long as he doesn't get any of the moolah, Sheila...
<Jinx> Thanks again, Sheila. Goodnight, folks!
<@SLViehl> He got enough when we split, Joel.
<Anne_Marble> Didn't P.D. James use her maiden name? (Mostly because it was shorter and easier to sign, on checks and in books.)
<@SLViehl> Night Jinx
<JoelA> He's gone now, Sheila....
<JoelA> Unless he's still entitled to your royalties/
<JoelA> ???
<@SLViehl> Nope. He lives three blocks from me and I see him every other day, Joel. We're still good friends and share our kids
<JoelA> Ah!
<Robert> That's cool! Wow! Rare that people can manage that gentle a breakup.
<@SLViehl> We love our kids, so it was easy
<JoelA> Great job again, Sheila. And thanks for the templates. Didn't know they existed.
<@SLViehl> Let me know how they work out for you, Joel -- they're still experimental
<JoelA> "kids"? I got the impression you had one child, sheila.
<@SLViehl> Three Joel -- 7, 9 and 20
<JoelA> Will do, Sheila. Again, thanks.
<JoelA> 20? Did you have your first child when you were 16 or something?
<@SLViehl> 19, just a baby myself.
<JoelA> Wow!
<@SLViehl> Anyway, let me see if I can make a transcript. Good night, all
<JoelA> Congrats to you and your family, Sheila.