Writer's Think Tank -- February 8, 2002
<Valerie> I love the background, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Hi Valerie! Sorry, I was answering a phone call.
<Valerie> no problem. I just got caught up on some e-mail!
<@SLViehl> BTW, you'll be #1 tonight to ask a writing-related question. Since you got here first.
<Valerie> I don't have a question, but I can still stay and offer suggestions, right?
<Robert> Hi Sheila, Hi Valerie!
<Valerie> hi, Robert!
<@SLViehl> Sure Valerie, Hi Robert
<@SLViehl> Robert, you're #1
<Robert> I have a question prepared and in buffer but I just realized I will have to copy paste it again cause I'm scribing!
<Robert> Purr. Wow. lol - knew I was looking forward to it but that's trippy!
<@SLViehl> I also have this to put up once everyone gets here
<@SLViehl> I thought if I put up a list it would be easier for everyone to remember who was next
<Valerie> sounds like a great idea, Sheila!
<Anne_Marble> Yay, Robert made it in!
<Anon_2> Am I back?
<@SLViehl> Anon_2, is that Robert?
<@SLViehl> Hi Anne
<Anne_Marble> I managed to leave work early, hit the cool used bookstore, and buy groceries.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, that would be me, my phone disconnected.
<@SLViehl> We have multiple Roberts tonight
<Anne_Marble> Look, two Roberts! Evil phone company tricksl
<@SLViehl> Hi Gerri, welcome
<@SLViehl> Hey BJ
<RobertAndAri> Maybe the mana of the sacred cat Ari will keep me from vanishing this time.
<BJ Steeves> Evening All!
<Gerri> hi
<@SLViehl> Ari
is all knowing, all powerful
<Gerri> here mostly to lurk.
<Gerri> it's boring in regular chat when robert isn't there
<Jebbo> Here to lurk
<@SLViehl> Lurk away.
<Anne_Marble> I haven't even decided what to ask, but .... whoops, changed my mind. :->
<@SLViehl> We love lurkers.
<Gerri> btw: it's official. my novel is in the can!
<RobertAndAri> I got some kibitzing on my question in regular chat right before class, Sheila. <G>
<@SLViehl> One question -- who has a question they'd like to put to the group?
<RobertAndAri> Yayyy wow Gerri! Purr purr happy dance! Do it! Print and put in mail!
<Gerri> I'm writing the summary tomorrow, and it goes out asap to agents.
<Anne_Marble> I'll have to type it out first.
<BJ Steeves> I need to think up one..or more.
<Gerri> and then it's on to the outline for book two
<@SLViehl> Congrats, Gerri -- that's the way to do it
<Gerri> or maybe back to the current WIP. depends if I can face that major of a rewrite...
<@SLViehl> Welcome Maxine, Kay
<Gerri> I've got to go back and combine two characters...sigh...ok, back to lurk mode
<Kay House> Hi, looks like you've got a good crowd already!
<@SLViehl> Working on it, Kay -- Hi Jenny
<Jenny> Hi everyone.
<RobertAndAri> Hi Kay and Jenny and everyone who came in real fast while I was copy pasting scribing.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, pooh. I thought this wasn't spam, until they called it a "one-time mailing" and mentioned "opt-in" and "partners." :-<
<@SLViehl> I got a spam this week from a guy looking for a date -- in Switzerland.
<@SLViehl> Hi Kaelle
<RobertAndAri> Hi Kaelle - Sheila, is he paying for your trip to Switzerland and a nice hotel he's not staying in and dinner and all that?
<@SLViehl> No, I've given up Swiss men for Lent.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Kaelle> Hi, everybody! Oh boy, slow entries tonight...
<@SLViehl> Hi Nathan and Gayle
<RobertAndAri> Hi Nathan and Gayle >^..^<
<Kaelle> Hi
<@SLViehl> Besides Valerie, is there anyone else who wants to just sit in tonight and not ask a question?
<Anne_Marble> Wow, all I get is "Increase your penis" and "Smoke this herb."
<Gerri> I don't have anything, Sheila.
<Kaelle> Me, I came for the company
<Nathan (& Gayle)> G> hello...tonight I will be sitting over his shoulder...next week he'll sit over mine...that way we both attend 'class' Nathan will have a question.
<Jenny> Me. I don't have a question, I mean.
<@SLViehl> Well, if something comes up in the interim, let me know -- we can always adjust and adapt.
<Anne_Marble> I gots one.
<@SLViehl> Hi Joel
<RobertAndAri> Hi Joel!
<@SLViehl> And Lucas, welcome
<Joel_A> Hi, y'all!
<RobertAndAri> Hi Lucas!
<Kaelle> Hi!
<Joel_A> Evening, SL.
<Lucas> Hi.
<Joel_A> Evening. RobertAndAri.
<@SLViehl> Here's the roster for tonight, up on the board
<Joel_A> OH! That's how that's used!
<Lucas> Ahh, posting it to the group board. That's a good idea!
<RobertAndAri> Clever! Though I still like the illo for Think Tank, it's full of ideas.
<@SLViehl> And we can add on names if anyone sitting in wants to throw out a question later
<Kaelle> Ok, if I think of anything, I'll speak up.
<Joel_A> I'm included? Thanks, Sheila!
<Anne_Marble> BTW I'm having a Samantha Smoothies banana strawberry fruit drink. ;-> Later I might have Chesapeake Wings (wings with Old Bay Seasoning).
<Kaelle> lol, Anne
<Joel_A> <Now I'll have to think up specific questions...
>
<Valerie> Samantha Smoothies? sounds better than my toast with salmon cream cheese
<Joel_A> Anne, you're making us hungry...grrr....
<Anne_Marble> Ooooh, salmon cream cheese....
<BJ Steeves> I'll stick with my glass of Burgandy
<@SLViehl> BTW, James sends his regrets -- his 'puter is still in the repair shop.
<RobertAndAri> I ate, nuked chicken nuggets with honey! <G>
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get things rolling -- Welcome to the Writer's Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<Nathan (& Gayle)> While everyone is saying what they're eating...we're having Rice
<@SLViehl> Tonight we'll be discussing whatever writing-related questions you may have -- we go in order of the roster (above)
<Joel_A> Hi, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> When I call time and ask for any last questions, that's when we move on to the next name on the list
<@SLViehl> Ready?
<Valerie> yes ma'am!
<Kay House> Are we really this quiet, or has my screen locked?
<Kaelle> good to go
<RobertAndAri> Aye, Captain!
<Joel_A> Ready....
<Nathan (& Gayle)> yes
<Anne_Marble> Yuppers
<Jenny> Ready.
<Kay House> Ready!
<Gerri>
puts on her seatbelt
<Lucas> Primed and ready.
<Maxinewolf> affirmative
<@SLViehl> All right, Robert -- you're up.
<RobertAndAri> Misfit mages travel many different worlds to save their commander's wife. What magical and alien races could they run into and what kinds of trouble can I give them, subplots, complications?
<Lucas> What kind of magic do they use?
<Jenny> Why are they misfits?
<@SLViehl> Define misfit a little more for us, Robert
<Anne_Marble> They could meet themselves.
Either on their world or on parallel ones.
<RobertAndAri> Many different local kinds in different worlds, they are Earth guys learning eclectic crosstime magic.
<Valerie> Language complications are always good. Perhaps your mages run into people who only use telepathy or hand gestures to communicate (or whatever is foreign to your guys)
<Kaelle> What happened to the commander's wife?
<Valerie> (I got to hear the question earlier, in chat!)
<RobertAndAri> Displaced War veterans from the big war in my series, some from opposite sides. Guys discontented who want to get rich using magic in worlds where it works. Guys with personal goals brought together by Captain Bryce whose goal is to rescue his wife.
<@SLViehl> Novice mages would make magic mistakes -- maybe ending up on the wrong world, or the wrong time period.
<Gerri> (I made some suggestions earlier on this)
<Kay House> Yes, Kaelle, I think that what happened to his wife would be an important factor in figuring out what kinds of complicatons would and could come up
<Lucas> One of the worlds might have magic that only works for inhabitants, thus stranding your questing party until they could convince someone to help them out.
<RobertAndAri> Bryce is actively recruiting the kinds of guys who'd get in trouble with it and Gerri made a couple of good suggestions. His wife isn't dead, she faked it and she's main villain.
<Anne_Marble> Could there be a conflict between greed and their mission? (Heck, even Gilligan's Island managed that subplot!)
<Jebbo> give them an easy scheme where they can get rich, but they _won't_ do it for moral reasons?
<Jenny> They don't sound all that committed to saving Bryce's wife. One or more might refuse and leave the group.
<@SLViehl> You'd have inner-group conflicts with the mages being from opposite sides of the previous war, maybe they'd be carrying grudges they'd want to act upon during the story
<BJ Steeves> Or fights for rank and power.
<@SLViehl> I like that complication, Anne -- getting rich at the expense of the moral goal of their mission could be tempting
<Kaelle> The wife could have her own team of mages to act in opposition, then
<RobertAndAri> "We get rich as mercenary mages" is the general goal shared by all. Oooh yeah, Anne. I like that too.
<RobertAndAri> Or getting powerful, some are out for lore and magical power.
<Jebbo> Some of them could be in it for the goal of rescuing the wife . . . conflict within the group
<@SLViehl> I'd also have them finally find the wife after much trial and tribulation, and then they discover she wasn't abducted, she ran away.
<Anne_Marble> Some good get stuck on a planet because they were trying to make a big deal, and they didn't make it to the launch.
<@SLViehl> Making the Captain the bad guy hunting down his wife versus rescuing her.
<Gerri> with a little revenge and lust thrown in there...
<RobertAndAri> Right - and trying to revive someone who's not dead could intro major complications.
<BJ Steeves> OR she planned the whole thing...
<@SLViehl> There you go, BJ
<Anne_Marble> She needs Dr. Phil real bad.
<@SLViehl> Revenge and lust is good, Gerri. <g>
<RobertAndAri> More she planned the whole thing, she didn't exactly tell him "I'm getting a divorce and faking my death so you're out of it. Get going."
<RobertAndAri> Gerri suggested she was setting Bryce up all along, or Valerie did, and it was for revenge over something he doesn't even know what he did.
<@SLViehl> As for quest complications -- the traveling from world to world can present good conflicts, too.
<Gerri> or maybe will do, and doesn't know it yet, Robert.
<Gerri> time paradoxes are always fun
<RobertAndAri> And would it be corny if she tried to seduce the POV MC without his knowing that's Mrs. Bryce to break up that friendship?
<Jebbo> They could find a version of the wife from an alternative universe; or even multiple wives
<Lucas> The searchers could find the wife, but it might not be her, perhaps a duplicate created in some way, or a different time version that has opinions than the "current" version, if such a thing is plausible for your setup.
<@SLViehl> That would require them to locate the wife rather early on in the book, right, Robert?
<Anne_Marble> What if by traveling to one world, they thus anger the people on the next world? Maybe the people of Xerxon shun people who have visited Zington.
<RobertAndAri> Sort of, they will keep finding her and it's not her is a possibility. Like the attempted necromancy could happn early introducing a nonphysical woman who becomes physical, looks like her and ain't her.
<@SLViehl> Quantum versions of the wife would be interesting, Lucas
<Jenny> They could pick up prejudices about one world in another.
<Jebbo> What is the price for the magic? Could there be a horrible side effect that makes the consequences of the search unbearable?
<Jenny> (I have to go eat dinner. I'll be back later.)
<RobertAndAri> It would be interesting if that succubus was actually a quantum version of her - it fits backstory if that's the case.
<@SLViehl> Bye Jenny
<RobertAndAri> For Bryce it will be what he gets when he finds out who and what she really is, and discovering the succubus is a clue toward that.
<RobertAndAri> Bye Jenny
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Bye Jenny
<Joel_A> night, jenny
<Kay House> 'bye Jenny
<Anne_Marble> Bye bye
<Valerie> bye, Jenny
<Jebbo> Bye Jenny . . .
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of a price for the magic, as Jebbo suggested -- you pay for it somehow. What do you think, Robert?
<Lucas> The characters might encounter a world that demanded them to use a kind of magic that demands unreserved group participation to work. Any big interpersonal conflicts, and Zow, something screwy happens.
<Kay House> Robert, what does BRYCE THINK his wife needs to be saved from?
<RobertAndAri> I think I can apply that idea in many reflections till the ultimate nastiest version - when Bryce finds out he's been that had and it breaks his heart. Death. Bryce thinks she died.
<Kay House> if she's dead, why does he think he can do anything to save her?
<Kaelle> So he thinks magic can bring her back to life, Robert?
<RobertAndAri> Lucas, that is so perfect because that's what using the gates takes - concentration on same goal and destination by all members or the gate responds with compromises.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Robert?
<RobertAndAri> Yes, Kaelle, because if she was there are some ways it could work without violating anything
<@SLViehl> I like the motley crew of conflicting mages slowly learning how to become a group through the use of magic as a team versus individual. You might want to think about working that in as a part of the main conflict, Robert.
<RobertAndAri> I think that is the stand alone conflict of this volume, Sheila - that they have to become a coherent group. Bryce's overall long term goal for it is sound.
<RobertAndAri> But the price he pays for founding it is finding out the truth about his wife. Subtle, real, karmic.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to everyone for some excellent suggestions. Anne, you're up -- BJ, you're next
<Anne_Marble> Bounce bounce. ... One of the novels I have to rewrite is my werewolf novel. Think of it as the Fugitive as a fantasy novel with a werewolf heroine. One twist is that the detective she's on the run from is her former lover, Jessup. In my original draft, Talia was hiding at a backwoods village, and she unearthed a child molester.
<Anne_Marble> In the new version, I thought of changing the molester to a mad slasher with a religious reason. But I'm not sold on that idea. However... I have some new ideas for the background -- but I'm not sure if they work. The main one is making the ruling class a sort of vampiric elf-like creature. But the rewrites I've tried just aren't taking.
<Anne_Marble> Do you think I should put the vampiric elfs on the back burner and write this novel without them?
<RobertAndAri> Don't ditch the child molester. I like child molester. What about upping the stakes to child molester who does it to do satanic ceremonies (whether those have any magical effect or not they're icky)
<Gerri> honestly, yes.
<Valerie> I do. Seems to take too much away from the main conflict of Talia
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of a conflict between the werewolves and another class, but perhaps not shape-shifters or supernatural types
<Gerri> truth be told, I'm having trouble imagining the vamipre elf.
<Jebbo> Tie the child molester to the reason she is on the run.
<Anne_Marble> OK, sounds good.
<@SLViehl> Werewolf-killers would induce more danger toward your protagonist
<Valerie> the elfs just become more interesting than the werewolves since we all know about werewolves. It doesn't fit
<RobertAndAri> Vampire-elves wrok for me if they have a longstanding prejudice against werewolves nastier than human hatred of werewolves, if they have genocide on the mind.
<@SLViehl> Good point, Valerie -- maybe a separate novel on the vamp elves?
<Anne_Marble> In a way, he is tied in to her past. Her pursuer almost arrested once for child molestation but was not in time.
<Jebbo> The child molester is her ultimate salvation; he is a serious lawmaker or something
<Anne_Marble> No, he's the baker.
<@SLViehl> Oh, very twisted, Jebbo -- I love it.
<Gerri> it sounds more like a thriller with a twist.
<Joel_A> That's cool, jebbo.
<Jebbo> Lots of potential for moral ambiguity
<RobertAndAri> A thematic racial opposition would be beings who are trying to become pure mind logical rational spiritual creatures and think they're so much better than their animal nature. Passionless cruell types who are above good and evil.
<Anne_Marble> Her pursuer is very into laws. That's why he feels so betrayed by the murder he thinks she committed.
<@SLViehl> That makes me think more of a religious order, Robert, the way you put it.
<RobertAndAri> Right - it could be that, a group of secret magicians or a powerful 'guardian' cult.
<Kay House> If you keep the child molester, that lets her pursuer be afraid that SHE is doing the molesting.
<@SLViehl> Kay, you're wicked. Excellent twist
<Gerri> I'm sorry...I keep getting bad flashbacks from that one JLo movie....
<Lucas> What if the slasher/molester was commiting his acts of evil to prevent something worse from happening?
<Anne_Marble> I think I will still bring in the religious element. The molester (or he could be a child killer but not molester) could be part of a fringe element of a new religion.
<Kay House> Also, protecting children, and especially children you let us get to know, really drives us with motive
<Valerie> brb
<Joel_A> But if the victims state their molster is a man, Talia doesn't fit the description.
<Anne_Marble> I was thinking that he kills children because he wants them to go to heaven while innocent.
<Lucas> Maybe he really is evil, but he might not be mindless in his violence.
<RobertAndAri> That would fit with the cult idea, Inquisition thinking.
<Kaelle> ooo, Anne, that gave me chills.
<Lucas> Preserve the innocents, Anne? Eeww, that's twisted.
<Anne_Marble> Her pursuer knows she wouldn't molest anyone. But he might suspect her of vigilante justice. The man she was convicted of killing was a molester.
<Kay House> Getting a child to ADMIT it HAS been molested, much less identify the molester is hard.
<@SLViehl> You need a tag for the killer, I think, Anne -- what if he kills children but makes it appear like they're savaged by wolves?
<Anne_Marble> Thank you.
<Jebbo> Hmm . . .they are
all shapechangers? Molestation in changed form; gender not apparent?
<Joel_A> And realistic. There are psychos who justify their behavior as such.
<Anne_Marble> Then she would be suspect when coming into the village... (But she's not there during the first molestations.)
<@SLViehl> Or the killer is a perverted werewolf.
<RobertAndAri> He trained his dog to savage children. He trained a pit bull to it deliberately.
<Joel_A> Oooh! That's a nice one, Sheila.
<Kay House> more than one child molester, like in those daycare stories
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Anne?
<Kay House> daycare news stories
<Gerri> it might be too easy to catch in a small town.
<Lucas> Innocence. Maybe you could make molester's theme of preservation of innocence force him to have a larger affect on the situation.
<Anne_Marble> Oh and the villagers suspect the wrong person -- just like some of those news stories.
<Jebbo> Or even the fake molester idea. Like the satanic molestation scam
<Gerri> mass hysteria....mob mentality.
<Gerri> and maybe there's a demon feeding off the hysteria emotions.
<Anne_Marble> At the end, she has to save the life of the obnoxious innocent suspect, even though he thinks werewolves don't have souls.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, and theme of stalking by detective that's pursuing her, bad relationship before it ended?
<Gerri> (subplot)
<Anne_Marble> No, wonderful relationship, except he thinks she killed someone.
<@SLViehl> All right -- thanks all. BJ, you're up, Jebbo, you're next
<RobertAndAri> Maybe the molester had a bad relationship with her before all that.
<Lucas> If he sets himself to protect innocence, is there something (living) he could protect that only he would believe was innocent?
<Lucas> Ok, I'll zip up for the next one.
<BJ Steeves> Not "directly" a writing question. I'm having trouble finding research info for my WIP. Where are the best places for researching info on the web? Or any where else if not on the web.
<@SLViehl> Remember, we can always discuss more next Friday.
<Joel_A> libraries. used bookstores
<@SLViehl> What are you research specifically, BJ?
<Gerri>
http://www.google.com
<RobertAndAri> Library, Google searching, Yahoo searching and talking to people who make your research their hobby, personally.
<Kaelle> google
<Kay House> I like dogpile -- it searches a bunch of different engines
<Jebbo> Depends on the subject. What kind of research?
<Gerri>
http://www.askjeeves.com
<Gerri>
http://www.about.com
<Gerri> those are the ones I start with.
<BJ Steeves> Currently, some "medeival" type info.
<Anne_Marble> There's a board on this site where you can ask questions.
<Joel_A> if for professional information (e.g., medicine), call the local schools.
<Gerri> also, on the site are a huge amount of links.
<Jebbo> OK, start at orb.rhodes.edu, labyrinth, etc
<Kay House> also, in NC, at least, the state library has a way of providing access to academic things
<BJ Steeves> Anne, Got some answers but neded some more.
<RobertAndAri> If you want price of bread, speed of horse, peasant kinships and detail the old roleplaying game HARN was based on 12th century England in exhaustive detail.
<Anne_Marble> There are Medieval newsgroups, but I'm not sure if they'd be helpful. Maybe only once you get your initial research.
<@SLViehl> There are some terrific books on that time period, BJ -- I'll e-mail you a list of my favorites
<Gerri> if you've got a university nearby, check out their library and databases.
<Joel_A> role-playing games provide a lot of references. Check out GURPS products.
<BJ Steeves> ROle-Playing...never thought of that!
<Jebbo> The newsgroup you want is soc.history.medieval ; I post there a fair bit
<Kay House> Roberta Gellis has a listing of medieval resources on her website at robertagellis.com doranna durgin maintains it
<Lucas> Look at this site for a few things:
http://www.godecookery.com/
<RobertAndAri> HARN was a lot more realist than most of the RPG's and much more detailed. I sold my copy to Dstar.
<Kaelle> local college library
<Jebbo> What period of medieval? I can probably recommend books.
<Anne_Marble> OT: How can I copy and paste text from the top into Notepad?
<Joel_A> contact the Society of Creative Anachronism.
<BJ Steeves> Tried Google, but anything with the word "travel" got out of hand.
<Lucas> Anne, just select it like any text, so far as I know, then hit CTRL-C and it copies it to the clipboard.
<@SLViehl> control-c and then control-p works for me, Anne, but if it doesn't, I'll send you a copy of the transcript
<RobertAndAri> CTRL plus C for copy when highlighted, CTRL plus P for paste
<Anne_Marble> Duh, Anne.
I was trying to right-click.
<@SLViehl> BJ, are there any Ren fairs in your area?
<Joel_A> read fiction books set in the time period. mysteries and romance novels provide a lot of details.
<BJ Steeves> In Connecticut, there used to be, but haven;t heard of any for a while.
<Anne_Marble> Roberta Gellis is supposed to be a good fiction writer in that area.
<Jebbo> BJ, you mentioned "travel" is that what you need info about?
<@SLViehl> The one we have here annually has some great resource books for sale, and the role players are fountains of info
<Joel_A> oh! read the diaries, newspapers (if any) in that time period.
<Anne_Marble> The Giles books are suposed to be good.
<Kaelle> I did a search once for 'castles' and found all kinds of info.
<Joel_A> check out the children's section in your local bookstores/libraries/etc.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, if you want to finetune a Google search, try the advanced search, you can leave out certain terms.
<RobertAndAri>
http://www.sca.org is the Society for Creative Anachronism and can tell you what your local group is.
<BJ Steeves> It's mostly modes of transportation I need...the other bits I seem to have gotten down.
<@SLViehl> Check out the world history section at your local bookstore, too, BJ -- B&N usually has tons of books you can skim through, see if any address your needs
<Valerie> back
<Joel_A> wb, valerie
<Jebbo>
http://orb.rhodes.edu/ also search for Paul Halsall, can't remember the name of his site
also
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for BJ?
<Nathan (& Gayle)> WB valerie
<Anne_Marble> Or do exact phrase searches in quotes like "modes of travel"
<RobertAndAri> Also off duty history profs at community colleges and other colleges love answering questions on topic they spent life researching.
<BJ Steeves> Super answers all, that should keep me busy!
<Joel_A> post your question on usenet groups.get ready to be flooded...
<@SLViehl> medieval siege engines and transportation might be a good search string, BJ
<Joel_A> my spouse has a cd on castles.
<@SLViehl> Okay, many thanks for the great resources. Jebbo, you're up, Maxinewolf, you're next.
<Anne_Marble> There's a book out about two guys who built a catapault.
<Kay House> robertagellis.com/biblio.html gives her whole bibliography,
<Anne_Marble> BRB -- Old Bay Seasoning in eye.
<Jebbo> I think mine is easy; I have the event for a short and even a character: a geeky comet hunter discovers an alien spacecraft
<Jebbo> a light sail but I don't know what the plot is!
<Joel_A> that's easy???
<Gerri> so, what happens when he fubars?
<@SLViehl> He thinks he's found a meteor until the rock splits open and out comes . . . ?
<RobertAndAri> Man Against Environment: he has all kinds of technical problems actually trying to test and retrieve the artifact!
<Kaelle> Is the alien trying to be unnoticed?
<Valerie> plot could be anything. May want to ask yourself why is this spacecraft orbiting earth? What happens when he reports it? Does he report it? How does he know it's a ship and not an odd coment?
<Gerri> do you want it to be comic or serious?
<Joel_A> good points, valerie
<Jebbo> The basic events are that he finds the spacecraft by normal photograph and blink comparator method
<RobertAndAri> To me it sounds like he hit the ON switch on someone else's machine and the plot is his figuring out how to get it to work right - maybe ride it home if his space craft is damaged in the event!
<Jebbo> media get hold of it
<Kaelle> <blink, blink>
<@SLViehl> Comets have a pretty trackable trajectory, what if the comet suddenly veers off course for two seconds and the protagonist is the only one watching it at the time?
<Joel_A> ah! how does he react to the media?
<Valerie> so then one of 2 things maybe happens: he finally has proof all his SETI stuff is valid or his entire faith is shaken as he realizes there is other life out there...
<Kay House> he's REALLY shy, and he does report it and he has to deal with the National Enquirer and EVERYTHING, and he HATES all that,
<@SLViehl> Then he'd be trying to prove it's not a comet and everyone would be chuckling at him
<Joel_A> what's their reaction to him? and what's the government's reactioN?
<Valerie> however he reacts will drive his next actions. Cover up all evidence of spacecraft or report it everywhere?
<Anne_Marble> Back but squinting. :-/
<Kay House> and the change that comes in hischaracter is that he learns to deal with his shyness
<Jebbo> Hmm . . . his reaction.
<@SLViehl> Obviously, the government would want to discredit him
<Valerie> Could get a great Cassandra response as no one believes him until the craft lands and aliens start pouring out
<Jebbo> He is shy . . .
<Joel_A> LOL! sheila, you're too pessi...er...realistic
<@SLViehl> A shy person might publish anonymously, over the internet
<RobertAndAri> Discredit him or draft him and start muttering National Security in his direction.
<Joel_A> he's shy...but does he have a love interest he'd like to impress?
<@SLViehl> and the breaking story explodes, and the government starts hunting for the "Turk 182" guy
<@SLViehl> Love interests are good
<Jebbo> Hey, I think that works. The government tries to discredit him and he has to overcome his shyness to talk to the media and prove his case
<RobertAndAri> Or is she in the space craft? Remember some plants prey by mimicry
<Jebbo> Wow, I'm lagged
<Anne_Marble> Maybe she
is the space craft.
<Kay House> what's lagged?
<@SLViehl> Having once been horribly shy, I know how difficult that can be. Ouch.
<Jebbo> I think the story is about his reaction to the media.
<RobertAndAri> And some plants pollinate by it, some orchids look like the female of the wasp that pollinates them.
<Joel_A> you had a love interest you wanted to impress, sheila?
<Joel_A> that's a good plot, Jebbo.
<@SLViehl> Richard Grayson in the third grade. He broke my heart. lol
<Jebbo> I'm not even sure the aliens need to land
<@SLViehl> Imagine being a very private person and waking up with CNN on your front lawn. Yikes.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, my first impression was it was man v. machine because I misunderstood you that he was in a spacecraft doing close up comet chasing and then it opened up.
<Joel_A> hey! how old is he? does he live at home? and how does his family react?
<Lucas> If the aliens DID land or communicate, your comet hunter might be relieved, it could take some of the attention away from him.
<Joel_A> or the tabloids, sheila ;(
<@SLViehl> Good closer for the story, Lucas
<Kaelle> Yeah, a guy still in high school lacks credibility.
<Jebbo> He lives alone, is in mid-thirties; good job, but typical techie misfit.
<BJ Steeves> A geek!
<@SLViehl> My dream man -- someone who can fix the computer
<Jebbo> A definite geek; I have role models in mind at work
<BJ Steeves> That's me...I do it for a living!
<Gerri> what if the sh ip he saw wasn't the first one?
<Lucas> He could be trying, actively, to get the craft to do something interesting so it would attract attention away from him.
<Gerri> what if it was a life boat coming to rescue aliens already stranded on EArth?
<@SLViehl> Good twist, Gerri
<BJ Steeves> Or a Motie?
<RobertAndAri> He is a geek. Operating alien machinery correctly without crashing it is a geek's dream come true.
<Kaelle> Interesting, Gerri
<Nathan (& Gayle)> maybe the alien leaves in the middle of the story and comes back with more aliens to invade earth
<@SLViehl> Would he end up ultimately protecting the aliens? That seems more inline for a techie type to do.
<RobertAndAri> I like Gerri's twist because if it was malfunctioning that geek doesn't know he's saving lives - but he will.
<Jebbo> I think these aliens are going to have supreme indifference and will ignore Earth
<Valerie> dinner's ready; I have to go now. Bye all!
<Joel_A> night, valerie
<@SLViehl> Night Valerie
<Nathan (& Gayle)> bye valerie
<Kaelle> bye Valerie
<BJ Steeves> Everyones going to dinner!
<RobertAndAri> Bye, Valerie! Happy writing and dining!
<@SLViehl> And time -- any last comments for Jebbo?
<Jebbo> Bye Valerie!
<Kay House> I like Gerri's twist Jebbo, that leaves both the geek hero AND the aliens motives. His solution is to fix tehir stranded spacecraft so they can get home
<Jebbo> Thanks folks, lots of ideas . . .
<Gerri> in that case, what if he is the only one who can stop another Heaven's Gate.
<Kay House> see you later valerie
<Kaelle> Oooh, another good one, Gerri
<Gerri> ex-girlfriend or relative in a suicide cult?
<Jebbo> Gerri> you're tiwsted, but I love that last thought
<Lucas> Just consider what strange lengths his shyness might force him to.
<Gerri> you have no idea
<Joel_A> what if the aliens are using his innate shyness and curiosity to keep quiet about the ship until it's fixed. he then discovers they're going home to report to invade the earth. he has to overcome his shyness to warn earth?
<Gerri> you haven't read my novel
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks all for some very twisty suggestions. Maxinewolf, you're up, and then we'll be taking a five minute break.
<Anne_Marble> Oooooh, I like that Joel.
<RobertAndAri> Or be a geek hero one more time and reprogram it to say "Don't go there" in some warnoff way aliens take seriously! Find their Plague Code"
<Maxinewolf> Too tired for brain to function, think I'll pass this round, thanks.
<Joel_A> thanks, Anne.
<@SLViehl> No problem, M, we've all been there.
Kay, you're up.
<Jebbo> Robert> the nano-plague is another story
I have a plot for that one
<Kay House> What is so amateurish about putting a copyright notice on work you're submitting for pubication?
<RobertAndAri> Boy do I
not know, I got confused at that one too.
<Kay House> Sullydog is not the only one who thinks it is, WHY?
<@SLViehl> I don't think it's amateurish at all, myself. I've published six books and slap copyright lines on everything I write.
<Anne_Marble> I think it makes it look like you think the editor will steal your story.
<Gerri> is this that "well, no duh?" thing?
<@SLViehl> It's just automatic for me -- and I haven't heard any complaints or snickering from my editors.
<Jebbo> I have no idea; I've only just made my first foray into the slush pile
<Anne_Marble> Probably depends on the editor. Some have ... attitude.
<Kay House> The only idea i could come up with was that it didn't need a copyright notice because a letter from one person to another, even a stranger is not "legally" published.
<Kay House> Okay, I figured there was a chance nobody would know. If I ever find out, I'll let the rest of you know when I do.
<Gerri> also, hasn't there been issues about who registers copyrights, and if you didn't, the publisher could sometimes claim that copyright?
<Gerri>
digs through the back files of her brain
<@SLViehl> The fact is, everything you write is copyrighted from the moment you write it. Proving the copyright means either 1) actually registering the copyright or 2) mailing yourself a copy of the manuscript in a sealed envelope that you never open (the postmark proves date of origin)
<@SLViehl> Registering a copyright costs $75.00
<Anne_Marble> I've heard the second message doesn't really work, though.
<@SLViehl> Mailing yourself something costs whatever the postage is.
<Gerri> the second one isn't legit, though. the courts don't accept them.
<Anne_Marble> But that was on SFF.net, YMMV.
<@SLViehl> When you have an extremely marketable idea, it's sometimes worth registering the work.
<@SLViehl> I stand corrected, then, thanks Gerri
<Jebbo> Hmm . . .in the UK, registering copyright amounts to send yourself your MS through the mail but don't open the letter . Much cheaper than $75
<@SLViehl> But back to the question -- Kay, do you feel like an amateur putting a copyright line on your work?
<Gerri> isok. it's one of those common beliefs that really aren't.
<Anne_Marble> If you're really worried, would keeping a journal as you work work? I remember an episode of Murphy Brown where someone disproved a plagiarism suit because his wife kept complaining about his writing in her journal.
<Kay House> No, I don't. I would feel stupid NOT doing it, but USUALLY when respected people think something's amateurish, it betrays ignorance of somethign that professionals know.
<Kay House> For example, in litigating a court suit, REFUSING to give someone a consent to an extension of time to answer interrogatories marks you as being wet behind the ears.
<Gerri> I think it's one of those things that it's assumed the work is automatically copyrighted, so why bother with saying so...
<@SLViehl> Well, all I can go on is my own experience -- in twelve years of submitting manuscripts, no one has ever said "Get rid of the copyright line, it's what amateurs do."
<Jebbo> What I do is always work double spaced, 1" margins, underline for italics. It looks
right after a while.
<Kay House> all the old lawyers KNOWthe judge will give them the extension, so it's like a hand of bridge you dont' have to play it out.
<@SLViehl> I really think editors are too busy to care, one way or another, if truth be told.
<Jebbo> Two clubs.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe it's the kind of thing that only bothers amateur editors. ;->
<Kay House> Anne Marble, you are a truly EEEEVIL woman
<RobertAndAri> Might be that, and Sullydog never answered that question for me when he was posting.
<Kay House> I just LOVE IT
<Anne_Marble> Thank you thank you...
<Kaelle> Sheila, how do you say what copyright - I mean, how do you word it?
<@SLViehl> I know there are a lot of stylistic assumptions out there -- one pro told me he never writes that he's sending out simultaneous submissions, he just assumes the editor will know he is.
<@SLViehl> Which I think is very unprofessional, myself.
<RobertAndAri> Ick evil evil, I would be angry about that. I wouldn't care one way or the other about copyright notice but I do want to know if it's simultaneous.
<Kay House> you say copyright by putting a small c in parenthesis , your name and the date
<@SLViehl> I put: "Copyright 2002 by S.L. Viehl" at the bottom of my manuscript title page for novels, or the same on the bottom of the last page of my short stories.
<Kaelle> thanks!
<@SLViehl> I don't use the little c but that's perfectly acceptable, too, in my mind.
<Anne_Marble> Hey, we've had authors fax the hard copy of their figures to us. ;->
<RobertAndAri> That's also a statement "I did not rip off my best freind's story and slap my name on it to send to you, this is mine."
<Kay House> three hearts, jebbo, that's three hearts
<@SLViehl> There are a lot of myths about what is professional and what isn't. I follow what I learned from Writer's Digest, not what some guy who never published a novel tells me. But that's me.
<RobertAndAri> Your success speaks for itself, Sheila.
<Kay House> Makes sense to me. Thanks!
<@SLViehl> Kay, you had a second part to your question, want to throw that out to the group after we take a five minute break?
<Kay House> Sure, thanks
<RobertAndAri> Time to nuke the popcorn and change files! <G>
<@SLViehl> Great. All right, everyone -- five minutes break, then we'll get back to work.
<Kaelle> ok, brb, then
<@SLViehl> brb, I'm running for the tea kettle.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe I should go out to my car and search for the missing Fresh Samantha. :-<
<Anne_Marble> No, I'm in my PJs.
<Gerri>
wiggles her butt to wake it up
<Anne_Marble> Find cell phone, call parents.
<Gerri>
yawns widely
<Jebbo> I haven't played bridge for several years now . . .didn't know it was played over here much!
<Anne_Marble> Hope thwy're not asleep
<Anne_Marble> Ring ring ring .... Uh-oh....
<Gerri> well, they aren't now, are they?
<Anne_Marble> :-> The machine took it. Hey, it's just past ten.
<Kaelle> whew, back
<Kaelle> Hi, Izunya!
<Anne_Marble> Wow, a 49-year-old luger.
<Joel_A> <listening to Shania Twain to wake self up>
<Izunya> Hello.
<Joel_A> Hi, Izunya!
<Jenny> Hello again.
<Anne_Marble> How come so many warm countries have bobsledders and lugers?
<Joel_A> hey, Jenny!
<Lucas> Are there people here who read the transcripts for the mythology sessions but don't attend? I noticed that the attendendants aren't usually very numerous.
<Kaelle> Hi, wb, Jenny
<Gerri> b/c it's one of the few sports that can be practiced w/out snow?
<@SLViehl> back -- sorry, had to kiss the kiddies goodnight.
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, that could be it, one team practiced in San Jose.
<Kay House> Why is it so amateurish to put, in the upper right hand corner of the first page of a manuscript, a description of the rights being offered?
<Kaelle> I usually can't attend Joel, and try to read the transcripts for everything I miss.
<@SLViehl> One announcement -- I'm sorry I won't be able to have any Saturday night sessions this month -- my editor moved up a deadline and I've got to finish two books before the end of the month.
<Kaelle> Oops, Lucas, I mean
<Joel_A> ??? I didn't ask you a question, Kae. Sorry
<Nathan (& Gayle)> WB jenny, hi lzunya
<Anne_Marble> What do you mean by description? Do you mean "fiction"? Or something more specific?
<Izunya> I didn't know it was. I've heard that it's amateurish to write things like, "Don't try to steal this story," in your cover letter.
<Joel_A> Wow, Sheila!
<Kaelle> You go, girl!
<Lucas> I thought that would be more of a thing to be left up for negotiation. It isn't very relevant until there's actually an offer to publish the thing, after all.
<@SLViehl> Izunya, would you like to put a question to the group tonight? I can add you to the roster.
<Izunya> Actually, I didn't really have a question planned. I wanted to show up for the interaction, really.
<Kaelle> Me, too, Izunya. Interaction here is fun!
<@SLViehl> No problem. Okay, Kay posted the second half of her question a little earlier, did everyone see it?
<Joel_A> Forgot. Please repost.
<Lucas> I saw it.
<Kay House> Why is it so amateurish to put a description of the rights being offered on the manuscript, like "first serial rights" or "first european serial rights"
<Gerri> because if they aren't the first serial rights, then your agent should be doing the negotiating?
<Joel_A> thanks, kay.
<Kay House> I would have thought that the editor would want to know that, for example, the story hadn't been published before?
<Jebbo> Back to Kay's question. I don't know why it is amateurish to say what rights are offered. Particularly as a story could have already been published in another (foreign) market
<@SLViehl> I'm in agreement with Jebbo, especially for pre-published work.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, all this "amateurish" for mentioning legitimate business concerns seems a little fishy to me.
<RobertAndAri> If the market takes reprints it IS relevant they know that story isn't one.
<@SLViehl> I'd be more worried about ticking off an editor who wanted rights that weren't available.
<@SLViehl> And from what I've read, it's always good to mention pre-publication in a cover letter.
<Kay House> Well, I didn't like the tone of Sullydog's posts any more than anyone else, but he was not the ONLY one who ever said that about copyrights.
<Joel_A> That's the second time "Sullydog" has been mentioned. Who is this person?
<Kay House> With epublishing, why would a print magazine want to print my story if its got six more months on the web?
<Gerri> is it really necessary, though?
<@SLViehl> The editor of Neversomething e-zine. His guidelines are, to put it diplomatically, colorful.
<Izunya> Well, I've seen some editors get steamed in print about various people who think that editors are in the business to mess with authors, and make a huge deal of their copyrights. That's the only thing I can think of that might fit.
<Joel_A> thanks, sheila.
<Gerri> that's what I'm wondering. if you're sending out something that hasn't been published yet, why bother? If you're sending out something that has been published before, then you need to mention the issue. that's my opinion.
<@SLViehl> I think if you offer a professional respectful approach in any given situation, you should be treated with the same type of response.
<Kay House> Well, Sheila, this is enough for me. I figured that if either of those questions had a good answer, I'd change my header.
<Gerri> and I would mention that it's on the internet, yes.
<Kay House> Based on the group response, I'm not going to. Thanks, Sheila, for letting me ask the two part question
<Jebbo> The rights thing is a bit weird. Interzone uses up "first
English serial rights" or somesuch. Does that mean in England or English language? A question for lawyers to ponder
<@SLViehl> I would really like to know if you run into problems in the future with either of these issues, Kay -- I don't want to sound like an authority if I'm dead wrong on this issue.
<@SLViehl> Any last comments for Kay?
<RobertAndAri> Relevant exception is the general rule "with editors you don't know read their guidelines and take them to the letter"
<Kay House> I know another lawyer in town who does intellectual property. He should be calling me soon on another issue, and he should be guilty enough to anser my questions
<Gerri> lol, Kay
<Joel_A> Kay!
<@SLViehl> lol Kay
<Kay House> If Ilearn more, I'll let everyone know with a post.
<@SLViehl> All right, Nathan, you're up -- Joel, you're next.
<Joel_A> Hi, Anon_47!
<Nathan (& Gayle)> In the beginning of my current WIP the main character's home town (Among other major cities) is destroyed
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Do you think its realistic for a store to be open just on the outskirts of this just bombed town?
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Hi Anon_47
<BJ Steeves> Bombed with what?
<Lucas> If it has a way to get supplies in it might be.
<Jebbo> If it's nukes then no, otherwise I see no problem
<Kaelle> There might be trade in relics, etc.
<Gerri> depends on where the population is, and what kind of store it is.
<RobertAndAri> Depends what kind of store it is. A convenience store or general store or anything that had necessities for survivors might be cleaning up.
<Anne_Marble> It might be necessary. Maybe the rescue workers need it.
<Kay House> If there are people, and anyone has anything to sell, then of course someone will open a store.
<@SLViehl> If the general population of surrounding areas are still in need of supplies, they'd eventually need at least a trading post rebuilt in a convenient location, I think.
<Gerri> and how long it's been since the bombing took place.
<Kay House> If it was a nuclear blast, maybe not, because the people woudl be gone, too
<Nathan (& Gayle)> It's a sort of travel store
<@SLViehl> Survivors might also be pooling their resources and trying to rebuild the town, starting with the most basic need -- trade/barter
<Jebbo> If it
is nukes, it could be OK. Selling radiation suits or something
<@SLViehl> Travel as in getting people out of the area, Nathan?
<Joel_A> travel store?
<Nathan (& Gayle)> I don't know what type of bomb...I just know that it's a bomb
<Gerri> you do need to decide...it will have an impact on your story.
<Joel_A> or going into the ruins to pillage?
<RobertAndAri> There's a certain humor in the first thing opening up outside a bombed zone - a travel agency sending survivors somewhere else!
<Kay House> I can't imagine ANY situation in which there would be people and none of them would set up a store, or a booth or at least a lemonade stand.
<BJ Steeves> It will make a difference on the kind of bomb.
<Jebbo> What kind of setting? Fantasy or sci-fi?
<Izunya> If it's a travel store and the damage is widespread enough, they could be booming. "Tent, sleeping bag, gasoline in gas can, they say if you go west the National Guard has water piped in . . ."
<Lucas> You mean like an outdoor outfitter kind of place? I'm just guessing you didn't mean a travel agency.
<Jenny> Is it barter system, or is there still an acceptable form of currency?
<BJ Steeves> Nuclear, chemical, medical type agents will keep anything nearby dead.
<Kay House> When my husband traveled to Sarajevo, they were opening and closing stores and other places of business, bombing and all
<RobertAndAri> Izunya that's exactly waht I was thinking.
<Izunya> But Jenny has a point. They might be starting to run on barter.
<Kay House> During the blitz, Great Britain just kept keeping on.
<@SLViehl> Yeah, a nuke is going to make it hard to keep the travel shop open. Radiation sticks around a long time.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Well...this story takes place on mars...so it's a store to give people what they might need on earth...or earth's moon...or one of mars moon's...Does mars have moons?
<Gerri> however, you always have the stubborn selling to the foolhearty.
<Gerri> mars has a couple little asteroid moons.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Sci-Fi
<Joel_A> two moons, nathan & gayle
<RobertAndAri> Mars has moons. Phobos and Deimos
<Izunya> Okay, change that to O2 packs, not gas can.
<Jebbo> Mars has two moons. Phobos and Deimos
<Jebbo> lol!
<@SLViehl> I love how everyone knows Mars has two moons. And the names. God you people are good.
<Joel_A> how "realistic" is this story? hard sf or more bradbury surrealistic?
<Izunya> Mars has two moons. They're fiddly little things as moons go, though. I think a person can jump off Deimos (the smaller one). They both look like potatoes, not even rounded.
<Kaelle> Well, I got Phobos, but couldn't remember Deimos <g>
<Gerri> hey, I'm working on a mars story myself...someday.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> He goes to this store...whatever it is ...to get Gravity?Anti gravity boots
<Gerri> they're captured asteroids.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> ?=/
<Joel_A> Well, Sheila, we ARE sf/f readers as well as writers
<@SLViehl> The living conditions on Mars and Earth are quite different, so maybe your travel store could offer Mars residents typical things they would need on earth
<RobertAndAri> For low gravity moon stomping you want gravity boots not antigravity! Something to help you stick to the surface!
<Jebbo> On Mars, there are all sorts of shop ideas. The city has been bombed; life support is
difficult they sell
air
<Kay House> is the entire population of Mars being evacuated?
<Gerri> and any kind of mining gear, oxygen, oxygen production packs, water kits, hydroponics in a jar....
<Jebbo> Gerri: yes, carbonaceous chondrite and a stony chondrite . . . but my memory might be wrong
<Izunya> You have to ask yourself, is Mars terraformed, in the process of being terraformed, or "raw?" It makes a pretty big difference.
<Joel_A> Hey, Ian!
<Gerri> environmental suits....
<Nathan (& Gayle)> yeah but on earth you're going to want to have AG boots
<@SLViehl> Welcome Ian.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Hi Ian
<Gerri> food packs.
<Ian Campbell> Hi
<Gerri> think nasa food
<Joel_A> very true, nathan. any inhabitant living on mars would found earth's gravity very uncomfortable.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> oooo...I kinda like that stuff
<Lucas> If the store is selling Earth naturalization equipment, how in blazes are people getting from a bombed out Mars to Earth?
<BJ Steeves> MRE's
<@SLViehl> Mars inhabitants would also be intolerant to earth-bound microorganisms. Immunizations would be important. So would lots of Pepto Bismol.
<Gerri> that's what I was t hinking about, BJ.
<Gerri> full med kit including splint.
<Joel_A> bad, sheila
<Jebbo> What is the rest of the story line? The shop should tie into it
<BJ Steeves> They are better than the C rations I got!
<RobertAndAri> Trust the medical writer to think of the vaccinations! Cool!
<Izunya> Gerri: and patches. Lots and lots of suit patches.
<Gerri> also any kind of education and entertainment kits.
<Gerri> repair equipment of all kinds
<Gerri> what about fuel?
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Yeah...that's what I'm thinking of doing Jebbo...save me trouble of coming up with characters
<RobertAndAri> Fuel - Air - Water - Medic
<Kaelle> watwe?
<Gerri> transportation?
<Joel_A> books or their equivalents. how about Stardoc?
<Kaelle> water 0 oy
<Gerri> tents?
<Kay House> blankets
<Anne_Marble> Peanut butter and booze.
Computer parts. Palm Pilots. New E-books.
<Gerri> camping equipment galore.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Nathan?
<Gerri> definitely booz
<Joel_A> definitely, gerri
<Nathan (& Gayle)> He's definitly going to need fuel...with a rocketpack and all
<Izunya> Well, if we're talking a Martian surface camping store, and not an Earth store, they might rent vehicles. If your plot needs a vehicle, of course.
<Gerri> esp. if it's gonna affect people differently in different gravity....
<Gerri> hmmm..... *wanders away w/ that idea for a bit*
<BJ Steeves> Never get water to boil right on Mars.
<Joel_A> oh! sunglasses! the sun is much weaker on mars than earth
<Nathan (& Gayle)> something simular to palm pilot...a mix between that and laptops...
<@SLViehl> Maps. You'd definitely need maps.
<Joel_A> same with suntan lotion....
<RobertAndAri> Definitely that, Nathan. And other electronics.
<RobertAndAri> Radios, cell phones and other communications devices including those tuned to safety frequencies.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all. Joel, you're up, Lucas, you're next
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Thanks....this has helped me a lot...now I'll read everything that I missed
<Izunya> And lots of lurid posters about "The Wonders of Wild Mars can be Yours!"
<Joel_A> here's my question:
<RobertAndAri> Iz, that's a title!
<Joel_A> My question: My main character, raised as a noblemen and an journeyman wizard, is stripped of his memories. Realistically, what physical and mental abilities would he still have after such an act? (e.g., fighting, horsemanship, etc.)
<Anne_Marble> Copies of volumes 12-25 of The Wheel of Time
<BJ Steeves> Somebody's finished with dinner!
<Izunya> Robert: does look that way, doesn't it? I'll have to think about that one.
<Gerri> Joel, it entirely depends on what the duties of the noblemen/wizard would be.
<Jebbo> Joel> coordination. He should react well in fights.
<@SLViehl> How much memory loss, Joel? Total?
<Lucas> It depends on how much of his memories are gone.
<RobertAndAri> I think physical skills like horsemanship et al would remain if language does.
<Jebbo> large part of medieval noble trainign was in combat
<Gerri> if the nobles are the primary fighting force, then he's going to be majorly fit.
<Anne_Marble> Is it regular amnesia? I think they can usually retain that sort of thing.
<Jenny> There are two kinds of memories--things you know and things you can do. What got stripped exactly?
<Gerri> if it's later times, he may not be.
<Anne_Marble> I know an article on amnesia. Want the URL?
<Joel_A> yes. thanks, anne.
<RobertAndAri> Oddly he might react on etiquette training without recognizing that, the rules having been lifetime habit.
<Joel_A> the former, jenny. whom he was, his parents, etc.
<Jebbo> What setting? He might remember foreign languages (c.f. Latin )
<Kay House> If regular amnesia, then you're wanting a medical text. On the other hand, if he was stripped of his memories MAGICALLY, or by some technology, then that could be different.
<Anne_Marble> I'll go look...
<Jebbo> he might instinctively utter counter-spells
<Joel_A> magically, kay
<Gerri> so, does his magic go rogue or disappear?
<Kaelle> Maybe more like memories blocked, than stripped?
<Joel_A> he doesn't know he has the talent for magic and, later, discovers he can't access it.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Why did he lose his memory? Is someone wanting to kill him?
<Anne_Marble> Here we go, it's about amnesia in romance versus what amnesia is generally really like.
http://www.likesbooks.com/109b.html
<Joel_A> that's part of the plot, nathan & gayle.
<Kay House> Then the only thing about the answer would be that THIS magical act be consistent with other magical acts.
<Joel_A> thanks, anne
<Izunya> There's also the question of whether his memories have been erased, or blocked. If the memories are blocked, then it's an access problem, and he might find himself coming up with plenty of odd facts that seem entirely sourceless to him.
<@SLViehl> Retrograde amnesia produces gaps in memory from the moment of brain damage. The patient can't recall the events of a certain period of time, and is unable to store new information for a period immediately following the brain damage
<Nathan (& Gayle)> (Actually Gayle isn't here presently)
<Jebbo> He knows the spells but has lost the memory of how to tap into his magical ability?
<Joel_A> that's interesting, robert, about ettiquete. thanks
<@SLViehl> anterograde amnesia, on the other hand, extends from the onset to the time when long-term memory resumes (if it ever does) and is permanent.
<Jebbo> Alternatively, you could go for the tragedy approach. He doesn't realise the bint he has fallen for is his sister
<Kay House> probably he keeps all motor functions -- breathing, walking, bicycle riding, knitting, eating with a fork,knife and spoon
<Izunya> She should figure it out, though.
<@SLViehl> Basically, in most amnesiac conditions, the storage of information in the long-term memory, and the ability to recall it, is impaired or destroyed.
<Gerri> as for the physical body, pinpoint the time period like the one you're writing, and then find out what the nobles were like, what duties, etc, they had, and then decide what he can do from there.
<Joel_A> i sorry, sheila. which one applies to the lost of the past?
<Gerri> he might have an instinctive aura of command, or if he didn't, he might gain one, or he might have lost it in the process.
<Gerri> is there psychosomatic amnesia?
<Kay House> probably he doesn't remember his name, family relationsihps (bint, Jebbo?) lyrics and poems he'd memorized, information he'd learned, like 1066 & etc
<RobertAndAri> Gerri, that would be how the etiquette would show up too - he gives that culture's dominance signals as that's the only set of social signals he knows.
<Joel_A> no, gerri. it's definitely outside induced.
<Lucas> What if the amnesia blocked out early memories (basic magic instruction) instead of later ones (advanced theory)? It would be like having a Ph.D. in a science, but not being able to recognize or use the basic tools associated with it.
<Jebbo> Kay> bint = UK slang for . . . heck, it's untranslatable
<Izunya> Joel: retrograde. Anterograde amnesia, IMO, is scarier, since you can't store *anything.*
<@SLViehl> Usually patients with retro recover their memories. Patients with anterograde have significant brain damage, and are organically incapable of recovering memory.
<Gerri> I understand that, but what if it behaved like psychosomatic amnesia?
<Kay House> probably wise, Jebbo
<Joel_A> thanks, izun. he has retrograde
<Izunya> I seem to recall that there was a very good recent film involving anterograde amnesia, but I forget what it was at the moment.
<Jenny> "Memento."
<Lucas> Psychosomatic amnesia? What, he only thinks he can't remember things, but actually he can?
<@SLViehl> Gerri brings up a good point -- psychosomatic amnesia is a whole 'nother ballgame. It is a defense-mechanism response, not arising from brain damage
<Izunya> Jenny: Thanks.
<RobertAndAri> Anterograde sounds like the "Format C on the brain" version where you have to relearn language.
<@SLViehl> The mind literally can't accept the information, so it blanks out on it.
<RobertAndAri> Is that what it's called or psychiatric amnesia when it's emotional trauma that's the cause?
<Gerri> what if they tried to strip him, but he hid behind a psychosomatic shield?
<Jenny> No, it isn't, Robert/Ari. You can access everything that you stored before the brain damage occurred.
<Anne_Marble> There was an operation where they removed part of the brain to reduce seizures because they didn't think it was important. And the guy lost his ability to retain. new memories. He has a horrid life now.
<Kay House> so if this magical amnesia was induced by his enemies, then he'll forget the spells and how to build and invoke them, and what the materials are for
<Joel_A> thanks, gerri, but there is no way he could have stopped this stripping.
<@SLViehl> If you need your character to recover his memory, I'd go for induced or psychosomatic. That can respond to stimuli
<Gerri> just a thought
<@SLViehl> And you don't have to bash his brains in to induce it.
<Kay House> and he'll forget where he keeps his secret stash of stuff, and the things he didn't label will be mysteries to him
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Joel?
<Joel_A> the way I've constructed his background, he's lost his memories, including knowledge of his magical talent. also, the talent's been blocked off
<Gerri> well, the reason I suggested it was b/c the person doing the spell might not be able to tell the difference, and might not care, either....
<Joel_A> Hey! Sheila, so violent
<RobertAndAri> Induced psychosomatic would possibly involve torture in the process of stripping memories, creating associations for everything they want him to forget with hideous, unlivable torture.
<Lucas> He might have a dead man switch that was supposed to go off in the event of his death (if he doesn't toggle it every so often) but since he doesn't remember he's got it, the bugger goes off.
<@SLViehl> Shades of a Clockwork Orange, Robert
<Kay House> finding his magical paraphenalia or some of it might be a clue for him to help figure out who he is and how to get unblocked and regain access to his memories
<Nathan (& Gayle)> (Gayle is back)
<Joel_A> hmmm. a "trigger" . thanks, kay.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all -- Lucas, you're up, and does anyone else have a question we haven't covered? Mine can wait 'til next week.
<RobertAndAri> If they used the psychosomatic thing I mentioned he might have phobic reactions and not remember why - to anything they want him to forget.
<Lucas> Having your deadman device activate while you're still alive could be really problematic.
<Joel_A> ouch, lucas
<Lucas> I have a character issue I'm working with. There is a somewhat misanthropic character, a guy who looks at people and immediately finds faults (that may or may not exist) based on trivial (to us) items of behaviour.
<Lucas> I'd like to get some ideas for why he would want to work to help the people around him, actively work for the their welfare, despite this attitude.
<Lucas> He has recently been moved into a new society, so this could have something to do with it, but not entirely, because he had leanings in this direction even before the relocation.
<RobertAndAri> His own personal philosophical ideas of right and wrong.
<@SLViehl> Loneliness would be a good motivator.
<Kaelle> He might believe he can help them overcome their faults.
<Kay House> he wants to civilize these heathens, these poor benighted heathens, who don't know the PROPER way to go about things
<RobertAndAri> Doing this for his own good opinion of himself and NOT for them, but to sleep well at night with his own ideas.
<Jenny> Maybe he's aware his point of view is unreasonably critical and wants to make up for it?
<Jebbo> He is an idealist. He hates peoples flaws but thinks he should be perfect
<Jebbo> He
should help people
<Joel_A> he's haunted by the ghost (real or imagined) of someone he somehow failed in the use of his abilities.
<Izunya> He might feel that people are mostly slime, but that's because they're in pain. Reduce the pain, and he might find a few humans he can stand to live with.
<RobertAndAri> Then maybe he is doing it for their own good to help them be perfect and is nauseatingly patronizing but useful.
<@SLViehl> It could start out as an ego-feed and turn into a true calling
<Izunya> Or, if we're in science fiction, he could be an empath. People with problems make him itch under his skin.
<@SLViehl> But he can never escape them, good idea, Izunya
<RobertAndAri> Or he's just a grouch and these things aren't on the same level for him. That annoying person is still a person therefore doesn't deserve to die.
<Izunya> Thanks.
I'm fairly sure it's been done, but that doesn't mean it can't be done again.
<Joel_A> the ability stems from a parasitic alien who, motivated by alturism, forces him to do good
<RobertAndAri> Oh and don't forget boredom like Sherlock Holmes.
<Jebbo> but he can escape them.
Dying Inside robert silverberg
<@SLViehl> What if he desperately needs something from these people but he's too proud to ask?
<@SLViehl> Maybe he thinks he can find it by immersing himself in their society, even though he despises them.
<Lucas> These are interesting motivations you're putting out, everyone. It's fantasy, by the way. The magic is pseudo-scientific, except what stems directly from the "gods".
<Joel_A> then make the ghost for real
<Izunya> Or the misanthropy could be a smokescreen for something else. Maybe he can't afford to let people get too close, for some reason.
<RobertAndAri> Sheila, that sounds like a plausible riff on the 'loneliness' theme - it's unadmitted loneliness.
<@SLViehl> I like grouchy people, perversely. They're interesting characters.
<Gerri> I gotta go.
<Joel_A> night, gerri
<Izunya> See you, Gerri.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Be Gerri
<@SLViehl> Bye Gerri, thanks for joining us
<Kaelle> bye, Gerri
<Jenny> Bye, Gerri.
<Kay House> see you later Gerri
<Jebbo> In this case, I don't think genre matters. This seems like a pure character issue
<Jebbo> Bye, Gerri
<RobertAndAri> Night, Gerri! Congratulations on the done novel!
<@SLViehl> I agree, Jebbo -- this sounds applicable to all
<Lucas> You're right, mostly character, Jebbo.
<@SLViehl> What poses the most conflict for your character, Lucas?
<@SLViehl> That's what I'd think about while character-building -- how much trouble can I get this person into, etc.
<Lucas> He is in a position where he thinks that only he can solve various problems, but no one believes or supports him.
<Jebbo> He likes to help people. It makes him feel better. He also thinks he should help them even though he dislikes them. This even increase the pleasure he gets from helping them
<Nathan (& Gayle)> Hello Anon_20
<Robert & Ari> That would be me.
<Robert & Ari> I got dropped so there's a patch needed in transcript.
<Nathan (& Gayle)> ping
<Jebbo> pong
<@SLViehl> So his basic nature is at war with his motivation. He dislikes people, but he's compelled to help them.
<Robert & Ari> Jebbo had a good idea, if he thinks it counts more to help people he doesn't like that's a real motivator!
<BJ Steeves> Not to worry Robert, I've got it all so far...
<Kay House> In that case, Lucas, your character is one of those people who gets his jollies by carrying what we used to call "the white man's burden" He gets off on being NEEDED.
<Jebbo> Prison reform is a good analogue; they are
bad people but still deserve to be treated humanely
<Izunya> He could be one of those people who can't stand to see other people messing things up, whether they actually are or not. "Oh, you . . . no, no, no, you can't run your life that way, it won't work! GIVE me that wrench!"
<@SLViehl> It seems like there might be a lot going on under the surface with this guy. People subject themselves to situations like this in a subconscious effort to punish themselves
<Kay House> he will also want to restrict what those others do to what he can protect -- the guy's a picky rescuer. do this, do that, improve yourself, tuck in your shirt
<Joel_A> make him a disgruntled "angel", lucas, who's forced to the mortal world to "redeem" himself.
<Lucas> That could be something, Kay. Maybe he sees himself as superior based on certain criteria, as the "white men" did, but then discovers a person who, according to his own standars, superscedes him.
<@SLViehl> Golden Boy Finds out There's Someone Better. I love it.
<Kay House> me, too!
<Kaelle> sounds good
<Robert & Ari> Or on a darker note to make themselves feel better at the expense of who they perceive as inferiors - a lto of the shelter folks.
<@SLViehl> True, Robert.
<Robert & Ari> I really like that "golden boy meets someone better" concept. Feeds a grudge against patronizing shelter workers who thought because they had minimum wage jobs they were better morally.
<Jebbo> Yup. We've covered the light aspects.
<Jebbo> He "helps" people to validate the rest of his dark existence.
<Kay House> Yes, that's the dark side of the over responsible. they are over responsible so that they can feel good about themselves by looking down on others
<@SLViehl> Suffering so they can feel superior. I like that, Kay
<Lucas> It would indeed be interesting to see what he would do in that situation, meeting someone superiour by his criteria. That's something I hadn't thought of.
<Jebbo> Not necessarily superiority. Doing good to counterbalance the bad that he does
<@SLViehl> I just got an immediate "Finding Forrester" flashback, for some reason
<@SLViehl> Maybe it was the F. Murray Abraham character
<Lucas> The bad? Maybe he sees so many bad qualities in everyone else, because he's projecting something about himself onto them.
<Kay House> that's quite usual Lucas, it would work.
<Robert & Ari> That's so plausible it squeaks, Lucas
<@SLViehl> As in, I'm fine, the rest of the world is screwed up, and if I keep telling myself this it'll be true?
<Kaelle> Yes, like suspecting someone of never telling the truth, because that person always lies.
<Kay House> see Rabbi Kushner's book, LIVING A LIFE THAT MATTERS
<Lucas> Something like that rolled across my mind, Shiela.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments for Lucas?
<Jebbo> Rather than magnifying his own flaws in the others, he could understae them. That bloke hits people; he kills people
<Izunya> He doesn't neccesarily even have to believe himself "fine." A verdict of, "all humanity is a mess, deal with it," is better than, "I'm rotten."
<Robert & Ari> So true, Iz, he can sit around beating himself a lot between patronizing people and still hold that attitude.
<Robert & Ari> Scary stuff
<Kay House> So, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> Mine is a very basic question regarding continuity on a series
<@SLViehl> The situation: I've written five StarDoc books that follow a similar pattern, plot-wise. The storytelling is pretty consistent.
<@SLViehl> Book six is a radical departure, due to the nature of the plot. Instead of being told in first person by the protagonist, it's told in first person by four different characters, including the protagonist.
<@SLViehl> Am I insane to try to mess with a bestselling formula that's worked so far, as has been suggested?
<Robert & Ari> Oh cool! That sounds neat. As long as the universe of the StarDoc novels is the same, seeing it from other characters' point of view and an outside view of the protagonist is cool!
<Jebbo> Is it the climax of the series? A change of style mught be appropriate . . .
<@SLViehl> I want to grow the series. And this is what my gut is telling me to do.
<Lucas> Piers Anthony in his Split Infinity books went from tracking a single character at the beginning of the series, to using a different viewpoint for each chapter by the end of the series.
<Kaelle> Hmm, can you tell the story of book six in the usual way and still have it be the story you want to tellj?
<Anne_Marble> If it reads well (and it will of course), it won't matter to readers.
<Robert & Ari> Speaking as a StarDoc fan, finding out how Squilyp sees Cherijo or how Duncan sees everything would be great!
<Izunya> As far as I'm concerned, it'll sell, but then I'm only one buyer . . .
<Kaelle> Me too, Iz
<Robert & Ari> Follow your heart, Sheila. That sounds like something that will revitalize it.
<Anne_Marble> I have read books that split up the viewpoint. Some worked, some didn't. What matters is the skill of the author. (I loved "The Collector" and "Arslan.")
<BJ Steeves> That is a GOOD question. How difficult would it be to do it both ways and get a "vote" on which one is best?
<Jenny> I think series followers do like continuity/sameness. But they don't want to be bored either.
<Robert & Ari> Like you were saying in series plotting before with bringing in fresh material. That shows the familiar from a new viewpoint.
<@SLViehl> It will follow the same storytelling lines, but the POVs will be quite different.
<Kay House> No. First, you are bound to go wherever the story goes, because if you don't, the story won't go. You'll get tangled up in it and have to force it into hte shoe, and that will hurt the series more than adding viewpoints
<Izunya> I will point out that we've already had a small taste of this. I think I recall a bit of Shockball where Duncan was telling some history from his point of view, where it looked very different.
<Jebbo> Could easily give a whole new twist to plot. Previous books weren't quite right. What really happened was . . .
<Robert & Ari> Or, that was accurate but we didn't know what Squilyp knew about what some other people were up to.
<@SLViehl> I can handle flopping with this book if need be, and taking the responsibility -- I just think it's really important to keep things fresh and growing.
<@SLViehl> Naturally, I'm anticipating my publisher hitting zee roof
<Jebbo> Alternatively, it isn't quite the same series but is a tangential alternative universe
<Robert & Ari> I think if it's coming like that from the gut it will be that vital. I know that I'd love to see things from some other points of view. Alunthri's.
<Anne_Marble> there's nothing more annoying than reading a book where a viewpoint character misses out on important event, so the reader never gets to see them.
<Kaelle> Personally, I didn't notice any sameness of pattern. Each book felt fresh to me.
<@SLViehl> but they're in the business to bet on a sure thing, not experimentation.
<Jenny> Then that's your answer, sounds like, Sheila.
<Kay House> Second, Cherijo's had the stage for a while. Unless you want to grow stale on her, and make this the Perils of Pauline, you MUST take the new direction.
<Robert & Ari> If the structure's the same under it and the quality's the same changing POV is not changing the winning formula.
<Lucas> If you feel like
not making the change for this book could make things stagnate, then you might want to do it. I can hardly think of anything worse than feeling like your stuck in a rut, writing the same stuff over and over. Especially in an open ended series...
<Izunya> Ultimately, I think you'd be in worse shape if you stuck to a pattern that you felt handicapped by. Structure is good, mindless formula is bad, that sort of thing.
<@SLViehl> I'm going to fight for this one. I just wasn't sure if it was writer ego, or instinct. Maybe it's both.
<Kaelle> I'd go with your gut, Sheila
<Kay House> Third, it's better to not mess with writing from the first person,
<@SLViehl> Thank you all.
<Robert & Ari> I don't think it's ego so much as a well trained internal editor saying 'do not just write another version of a previous book, don't let this die!'
<Kay House> It would be better to go with a character we LIKE already, but you wouldn't want to do it if you didn't like the character, and since you do, we will.
<@SLViehl> And that's a wrap for tonight.
<Joel_A> Great job, everyone!
<Joel_A> Cool questions.
<Jenny> Thanks for a great session (the parts I saw, anyway; I assume the rest was just as good.
) I hafta go now--g'night all.
<Robert & Ari> Thanks, everybody! I didn't get a chance to say that after mine.
<Izunya> Well, ego can be right; its primary function is to say, "I can do this.
<Kay House> Thanks, y'all! It was fun!
<@SLViehl> Wonderful session. I feel like we moved some small mountains in here.
<Joel_A> And even better advice/suggestions.
<Jebbo> Hey, it was fun
<@SLViehl> Night Jenny
<Robert & Ari> We sure did, Sheila! Thanks for moderating it!
<Joel_A> night, jen.
<Lucas> This was great. Thanks for all of the good character motivations everyone!
<Anne_Marble> Shovel, shovel, boom boom boom
<Kaelle> It's always great here!
<Kay House> Goodnight everybody!
<Joel_A> keep up the great work, lucas
<Robert & Ari> Thanks for turning offstage babe object of quest into villain!~
<Joel_A> night, kay
<Izunya> G'night, Kay
<@SLViehl> We'll be having the think tank every Friday night, same time, same conferernce room, so please stop in again
<@SLViehl> Night Kay
<Kaelle> Night Kay
<Anne_Marble> Woohoo!
<Robert & Ari> Night, Kay!
<Jebbo> G'nite y'all
<Robert & Ari> Night, Tony
<Izunya> G'night, Jebbo.
<Joel_A> night, jebbo. keep up the good work
<Kaelle> Night, Jebbo
<@SLViehl> Night Jebbo
<Anne_Marble> Thank you, Sheila. And everybody.
<Anne_Marble> How weird. My Explorer font became smaller.
<BJ Steeves> That was one grat session, thanks again Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Thanks to you all. Anne, you want me to e-mail you a copy of the transcript?
<Jebbo> So long and thanks for all the fish
<Izunya> I think I should go on, myself. Thanks, everyone, and good night.
<Kaelle> Don't forget your towel
<Robert & Ari> 42
<Nathan> Bye all
<@SLViehl> I'll be posting one on the Transcript board, too
<Lucas> Is the transcript going to come out ok? I thought Robert said he missed recording part of it?
<@SLViehl> Night Izunya
<Joel_A> night, izunya!
<Joel_A> night, nathan & gail
<Lucas> Oh well, with as many people as are here it should be Ok.
<@SLViehl> I'm going to see if I can make one right now. Night Nathan & Gayle
<Robert & Ari> BJ is hopefully sending his too and I don't think I lost a lot, maybe only a few lines.
<BJ Steeves> Shiela, I got it all. I'll send your way in a few.
<Kaelle> Night everyone!
<@SLViehl> Thanks, BJ, you're a prince