<Erik Forbes> That'd be Robert
<Sarah> in.
<Gayle> Nathan won't be over my shoulder this evening...he's listening to a new cd he got from the library and rearranging his room so his friend will have some place to sleep tomorrow night
<Jinx> Wow -- a whole class to yourself. What will you do, Gayle?
<Sarah> Ooh, new CDs, good idea...
<Gayle> I'm sure I'll think of something...it was nice today...a friend of his took him out to luch, a movie, and dinner and I got a chapter finished in my rewrite
<Robert> Thanks, Erik. I opened another instance of IE to get into it witth.
<Erik Forbes> np
<Gayle> Hey robert
<Jinx> Evening, Robert
<Jinx> That's wonderful, Gayle!
<Robert> Purr <bash>
<Gayle> I think so...might even get the next chapter finished tomorrow since he's suppose to be out of the house all day.
<Sarah> Yay Gayle!
<Sarah> Hi Robert!
<Jinx> Woopie!
<Jinx> Ok, don't get me wrong. Love your kids, but really enjoy the few times you have to yourself. ;-P
<Gayle> definitely!!!
<Gayle> I'm hoping to do a chapter a day for the remainder of the month...should be interesting since it's basicly out with the old and in with the new for the majority of what's left to go through of Conflict
<Robert> That sounds great, Gayle!
<Jinx> That's great. Good luck with it!
<Gayle> thank you.
<JoelA> hi, y'all.
<Gayle> hey Joel
<Robert> That's about the pace I've been doing on Untitled Aggravation Novel. <G>
<Robert> Hi Joel!
<Sarah> Hey Joel!
<Jinx> Evening, Joel
<kewms> Is Aggravation the one formetly known as High Goth?
<Robert> Oh no! High Goth is a short story submitted to Dreams of Decadence, it's done. Agg Novel is current WIP just over 60,000 words
<kewms> Or is HG finished as a short? (You write so fast I can't keep track.)
<Robert> The shorts do spit out fast, usually a day to write and a day to rewrite.
<Erik Forbes> heya joel
<JoelA> back
<JoelA> hi, y'all
<JoelA> what's news?
<Erik Forbes> bleh
<Sarah> <wishes she HAD news...>
<Robert> WIP is rolling on and I'm working on phrasing my question short. <G>
<@SLViehl> Evening everyone
<Erik Forbes> heya
<@SLViehl> Sorry I'm late, AOL is twitchy tonight
<Gayle> evening sheila
<kewms> Hi there!
<Jinx> Evening, Sheila
<Sarah> Hy Sheila!
<Erik Forbes> late? 8:55 by my watch
<JoelA> evening, ms viehl
<@SLViehl> Usually I get here a lot earlier, Erik
<Erik Forbes> oooh
hehe
<@SLViehl> If everyone will give me two minutes to get my stuff together -- brb
<Anne_Marble> Hello
<Erik Forbes> hey anne
<Anne_Marble> Hi
<Gayle> hey anne
<JoelA> hi, anne
<Jinx> Evening, Anne
<Anne_Marble> BRB --- soup in the microwave. (I'll brag about the contents later)
<Sarah> Hi Anne!
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Robert> Purr <bash> Sheila, Anne!
<Erik Forbes> soup at the keyboard huh?
<Jinx> <waits> <g>
<Robert> Sounds like soup's worth bragging about? <G>
<Erik Forbes> does sound that way
<Jinx> Anne has to uphold her class tradition.
<kewms> Careful. I've been rediscovering my food obsession lately.
<@SLViehl> Okay, welcome to the Writer's Think Tank -- I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLViehl> Your somewhat tardy moderator was unable to get her butt in here earlier, thank you AOL, so I'm going to put up names as they are listed on the Chat to
<@SLViehl> First, is there anyone who DOESN't have a question for the group tonight?
<Jinx> Me!
<Sarah> Me
<kewms> I don't have one prepared, but may think of one as we go. Can I pass when my turn comes?
<@SLViehl> Sure -- Katherine, right? (trying to remember logins)
<Lucas> I don't need a question slot. Though if we run short of questions I could always come up with one.
<Robert> I'm still trying to phrase mine concise but do have one. <G> Yeah, she's Katherine!
<kewms> Yes, it's Katherine.
<Gayle> yeah I don't have any questions tonight
<@SLViehl> We may have time at the end so it looks good if you think up one later
<Erik Forbes> I can't think of one at present, but I might...
<Anne_Marble> Eek, forgot soup
<Anne_Marble> I mean spoon
<Anne_Marble> NO, I didn't. Never mind. (Grumble)
<Jinx> hee hee
<Gayle> sounds like the spoon fell in the soup
<@SLViehl> Okay, standby for the roster
<Anne_Marble> And I had to go to the service desk because they overcharged me for the soup! <grrrinding of teeth>
<@SLViehl> Gayle, does Nathan have a question for the group?
<Gayle> He's not over my shoulder tonight...new cd from the library and rearranging his room for tomorrow
<@SLViehl> Bless his tidy heart. Thanks,
<Robert> Say hi to him for me, Gayle!
<Sarah> Yay! Plane tickets are confirmed.
<kewms> Eek! Could you skip me down a bit further? (Can't stand the pressure of going second.)
<@SLViehl> Sure Katherine, no problem
<kewms> Thanks!
<@SLViehl> Did I miss anyone?
<JoelA> yes, sheila. yourself
<Robert> I'm not rewriting that question any more! I think it'll fit in a post at worst two.
<@SLViehl> Whoops, forgot me
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<kewms> How do I make the GroupBoard window refresh?
<Lucas> It just does.
<Erik Forbes> should do it by itself...
<@SLViehl> We're ready to go, then -- here's a brief run down on how this session works:
<kewms> Okay, there it goes. Just slow.
<@SLViehl> Each person puts a writing-related question to the group. It can be about anything -- plot, character, setting --
<@SLViehl> whatever you're having a problem with right now in your work.
<@SLViehl> Try to be specific, if possible
<@SLViehl> Then the group will attack the problem -- offer up suggestions, alternatives, anything constructive they can think of.
<JoelA> hi, anon_5, 6
<@SLViehl> I'll be monitoring the time, so that everyone gets a chance to discuss their problem with the group
<@SLViehl> When I call "Time", that's when you make your last comments or suggestions, and we move on to the next name on the list
<Suzanne> Hello everyone. Sorry to come in late
<@SLViehl> Any questions?
<@SLViehl> Hi Suzanne
<Lucas> Hi Suzanne. Do you want a slot in the roster?
<@SLViehl> Welcome Scott, too
<JoelA> hi, suzanne
<Scott> Hi.
<Suzanne> yes, please
<JoelA> hey, scott
<Jinx> Evening, Suzanne and Scott
<Gayle> evening suzanne
<Gayle> and scott
<Robert> Hi Suzanne & Scott (& Ari says hi jumped on my lap!)
<Lucas> Hi Scott. Do you have a question tonight, or are you just sitting in?
<JoelA> hmmm. did sheila get kicked off from AOL?
<Erik Forbes> uhoh
<Scott> First time in one of these, I guess I'll just watch for a while.
<Robert> That happens, give her time to reappear.
<kewms> Looks like she did. OOPS!
<Erik Forbes> hmm
<Suzanne> I had the trouble as I was getting into the conference room
<Erik Forbes> evil and vile aol
<@SLViehl> I'm back, sorry
<Erik Forbes> wb
<JoelA> WB, sheila
<@SLViehl> Robert, if I keep getting bumped off, will you moderate in my place?
<Robert> Purr@Sheila (Ari bash)
<Anne_Marble> Bad Internet, very bad!
<Robert> Sure, no problem!
<@SLViehl> Robert has been to all the think tanks so he's an expert on how they go
<JoelA> who's recording this session, by the by?
<Robert> Yours truly the compulsive scribe.
<@SLViehl> I don't think I'll be able to do a transcript tonight, so Robert, thank you
<@SLViehl> And BTW, Blair sends his regrets -- he hurt his hand and can't type very well
<JoelA> thanks, robert
<Robert> My system's stable! Dstar figured out it was overheating because I put a manuscript on top that insulated it.
<Erik Forbes> lol robert!
<Jinx> Poor Blaire! That's not good.
<kewms> Lol!
<JoelA> LOL, robert
<@SLViehl> Okay, Joel, you're up, Robert, you're next --let's get started
<JoelA> say hi to blair for us, sheila, and best wishes
<Anne_Marble> A new copyright infringement (translation: plagiarism) case in romance. :-<
<Anne_Marble> Whoops, sorry
<JoelA> okay, sheila. here goes:
<@SLViehl> No problem, we're very casual here
<@SLViehl> No problem, we're very casual here
<JoelA> joel's question: Is there another approach to writing the military sf instead of the traditional "young or green, barely out of school/dropout lieutenant bypasses entrenched military bureaucracy to save the world/universe?" For example, another structure for the military instead of the American system?
<@SLViehl> Good question -- how about raiding the militaries of the past? Like the Roman legions?
<Robert> Yayyy Joel please write it! Yes, lots. Youth can be raised to military as in ancient Rome.
<kewms> There's also grizzled veteran bypasses bureaucracy to save world.
<Anne_Marble> How about using a structure that worked in an ancient society? (Spartans, nomads, etc.)
<@SLViehl> Robert and I are mind melding tonight
<Lucas> The direct opposite of that is always the older, experienced person who already
has saved the world, and is now a part of the entrenched bureacracy.
<@SLViehl> And Anne too
<Gayle> how about an old jaded been in the military for forever and deep down still loves his job
<Anne_Marble> A trifecta!
<Robert> Ancient Chinese army structure just as potently united and very different!
<Lucas> Just because he's part of it doesn't mean he has to like it.
<@SLViehl> I based SD6 on battles from the Civil War, so it can be done
<Erik Forbes> perhaps forced military involvement?
<Anne_Marble> How about a young cadet who rebels against the system and thus screws things up worse?
<@SLViehl> Ancient Japanese military structures were fascinating, too
<Robert> Student of Sun Tzu must apply it and is not naive about strategy, must face visceral reality of war.
<@SLViehl> Are you more concerned with the protagonist, Joel, or the military structure itself?
<Scott> Why does he have to save the world? Maybe just save his buddies and himself.
<JoelA> the latter, sheila. the protagonist will have to act/react to it.
<kewms> I thought about doing a multiple POV novel about the Civil War. Decided "Killer Angels" and "Cold Mountain" had about covered it between them.
<kewms> Nothing to add.
<JoelA> that's true, scott. looking at different options.
<@SLViehl> I like that, Scott
<Robert> Please come up with a Table of Organization that is original, unique and workable to your world. I'm beggin' - you can do it!
<kewms> But for military SF, might have multiple POVs in various services, various parts of conflict, or both sides in a civil war.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, during the Civil War, many of their "recruits" were sleazebags who joined for the bonus and then deserted, often rejoining to get another bonus. could you make a hero out of that?!
<@SLViehl> You could have an army of impressed soldiers -- forced to go to war, who decide to take matters into their own hands
<JoelA> that's intersting, kewms. i'll think about.
<Lucas> Military Sci-Fi... You could find any number of other situations and extrapolate a military organization from them. For instance, what if you based a military system on (just pulling a strange example out of the hat) university politics?
<@SLViehl> Northern men often hired "replacements" to fight for them -- usually poor Irish who needed the money
<Robert> Veteran of a
foreign army very experienced in different system is treated as raw recruit. Was Romanesque now facing Chinese culture and military TOS.
<Scott> I'm working on an "impressed soldiers" story right now, actually.
<JoelA> whoa, anne. interesting....
<JoelA> ack, lucas! that would be brutal!
<JoelA> that's a good point, robert
<kewms> One of Zelazney's Nine Princes in Amber had spent millenia studying all forms of combat. Became best tactician who ever lived, in any universe.
<Lucas> True Joel, just being in the army would be almost as bad as fighting an enemy.
<@SLViehl> Hierarchies within the military don't have to be based on ranks (time in grade, education) but could be achieved by other means -- blood ties, physical dominance, etc.
<JoelA> well, depends on the army, lucas. wouldn't want to be in the russian forces....
<Robert> Especially if the army's entire system of training and organization bore no relation to what he knew.
<Jinx> And then you have the cultural impact of the military -- are they the pride of the nation/country/whatever? Or are they treated like the US military was back during the Vietnam war?
<JoelA> good points, sheila.
<Erik Forbes> joel: Maybe the recruits were enslaved?
<@SLViehl> What's the scope of this war? World, interplanetary, or galactic?
<JoelA> galactic, sheila.
<Erik Forbes> like, forced to participate in the protection of someone?
<Lucas> I was thinking of one based on what I suggested. That would be rough.
<kewms> Maybe the recruits were freed slaves, who enlisted to get free.
<JoelA> good point about the slave issues to y'all who suggested it.
<Scott> Or still slaves, like janisaries.
<Robert> That's a neat way of drafting an MC, kewms! I like it. "You will be freed if you join the army." And was a warrior.
<Suzanne> Or you might conceive of your army after your figure out your weapons. Design the people who would use the killing tools
<Sarah> Enlisting the aid of the locals could be really interesting on an interplanetary scale.... (thinking British soldiers working with Native Canadians, on a much weirder scale)
<JoelA> genetic engineering, suz? love it!
<Erik Forbes> hehehe
<kewms> Freedom or citizenship as an enlistment bonus is pretty common historically.
<Robert> Weapons will determine drills and tactics. Pikes demand close order drill.
<Lucas> That's a good idea Suzanne, figure out what kind of weapons are being used and maybe that will tell you what kind of people are using them.
<Anne_Marble> Have you read Elizabeth Moon, Joel? ;->
<@SLViehl> You'd have all sorts of interesting complications with trying to shang-hai soldiers from different worlds.
<JoelA> no, anne. good books?
<kewms> Conversely, long swords demand lots of space. Samurai two-sword styles demand
huge amounts of space.
<Scott> The nature of the warfare will have a great impact on the mindset of the soldiers. Are they ultra-elite "Starship Troopers" types, or just grunts who die by the millions?
<JoelA> I love complications, sheila
<@SLViehl> Long swords were also traditionally used from horseback by various calvaries in history -- so you might want to mount your soldiers on something
<Robert> Light ranged weapons sometimes gain things like rotating kneel, load, stand, fire things where you're alternately covering half the unit that's loading.
<@SLViehl> other than horses, I mean.
<JoelA> LOL, sheila
<Robert> Like helicopters, air cav tactics may be very good.
<kewms> Mounted soldiers then also face weapons designed to cripple mounts.
<Anne_Marble> Blades will be more useful in some types of futuristic warfare than guns and similar weapons. Especially if you're fighting in spacesuits.
<@SLViehl> Okay, time -- any last comments or suggestions for Joel?
<Sarah> Mounting soldiers on alien creatures!
<Robert> EE Doc Smith was right. Blades are great on space ships cause you don't blow hull while boarding!
<Erik Forbes> I like the slavery idea.
lol
<@SLViehl> I'd just write based on something you really enjoy researching, Joel -- make it fun
<JoelA> thanks, everyone!
<JoelA> clear
<JoelA> oops!
<Robert> Here's my hastily prepared question:
<@SLViehl> Great suggestions, folks -- okay, Robert, you're up, Erik, you're next.
<Erik Forbes>
whee
<Robert> Setting -- local and regional details for dinner in the House of Heroes. "Barbarian" is a compliment in House Dzur. Niljeira is a parallel of my main planet Piarra. Not quite the same. What might be different? Family domestic living details too. Anthro stuff.
<@SLViehl> House Dzur is the House of Heroes?
<Robert> Breakout Novel advises 'pick out details in setting' so I'm looking for key details. Yes. Dzur is "house of heroes" warrior house.
<@SLViehl> On the planet Niljeira?
<@SLViehl> Just clarifying
<Jinx> Do you want a highly stylized setting/ritual for dinner? Or a free for all? Or something in between?
<Robert> Yes. Which used to be a backwater and now has more attention fromt he Empire as a whole because of a hero from that household who got into Imeprial household.
<Robert> Something that's both at once Jinx. It's a tough feeling. High ceremony that's brawly and wild.
<kewms> I like non-visual details: sounds, smells, tastes. What the glistening oak table feels like under the hand.
<@SLViehl> Primitive cultures often still have highly ritualized lives -- it doesn't have to be a barbarian free for all
<Jinx> Makes me think of The King and I -- someone considered a 'barbarian' who was trying to make a good impression on the British (I think it was the British).
<Anne_Marble> Viking feast -- they wipe their hands on the dogs. Yet they say a prayer first.
<@SLViehl> They can just be very, very different
<Erik Forbes> it was the british
<Robert> Right. It's not. That's what I want - all the ritual details that are just different custom. They boast and they don't apologize. They said grace already silently. With gong banging and then a lot of toasts.
<@SLViehl> I'd go for contrasts between the societies
<kewms> Who is viewpoint character? Local or visitor?
<@SLViehl> What's going to most offend your more civilized people?
<Robert> Local newly refound orphan raised on Earth finds true family MC raised American on Earth. Now knows he's nonhuman and that's his real family.
<Anne_Marble> You might want to read books on worldwide etiquette for travellers. You can find lots of cool ideas there. Like in some countries, a nod means no.
<kewms> Okay, but he's not familiar with House customs, right?
<Robert> And all his human misfit mage buddies, one of whom got adopted into his House thunderously. The human guy's familiar with House custom!
<kewms> Okay. What I'm getting at is that the viewpoint character will pick out different details depending on his own biases.
<Robert> Anne, I like that! I haen't put a cross-meaning gesture yet!
<Anne_Marble> Do they have ... thingie... wergild? Where if you offend someone, you pay them a set amount? In another society with a different custom, receiving payment after an offense would be very insulting.
<Erik Forbes> robert: perhaps they don't understand sarcasm?
<kewms> He might think the Vikings wiping hands on dogs is perfectly normal, but be shocked at the idea of cutting meat at the table.
<@SLViehl> The obvious route is culture shock -- civilized guy finds out he's from Planet of the Viking People
<Erik Forbes> that'd could get interesting
<@SLViehl> Yeah, Erik -- like, "How could he ruin a perfectly good blade by cutting food with it?"
<Anne_Marble> (I got that idea from a question I asked on rec.arts.sf.composition.)
<kewms> Or if viewpoint is local, might mostly notice how visitors goof.
<Robert> Sarcasm is good - more he doesn't always understand when they're sarcastic - Wit gets SCORED and people take insult apparently violently but it's for fun.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Erik Forbes> that's the idea
<Robert> And he's busting buns tring to be POLITE when they're treating him like family.
<kewms> And being treated like family means being insulted and pushed around like family...
<Erik Forbes> that could get REALLY interesting
<Robert> A lot of underlying point in the scenes is difference between warm wit and cruel wit
<kewms> And he doesn't understand that they like him.
<Anne_Marble> Do you remember Star Trek's Tellarites? They loudly insult people, but it's a friendly cultural thing.
<@SLViehl> Rough and tumble horseplay is the norm way of showing affection, on a barbarian scale -- and he's tiptoeing around them
<Robert> Right. They love him. They are so happy about his being there, he's nephew and their favorite nephew died, he's like a gift from the gods.
<Jinx> Great way to introduce a potential conflict via misunderstanding.
<@SLViehl> So they're going to want to loosen him up, aren't they? Robert, you could have a lot of fun with this.
<kewms> They're probably going to feed him large amounts of the local intoxicant. Which might or might not work on humans.
<Robert> Yep. Every time they're onstage! It's a little like the Jorenian style of grieving too and the tension's just snapping from hail the dead hero to We got a Live One!
<Erik Forbes> kath: he's not human
<Robert> Both species affected by alcohol and beer is served by an old priestess's suggestion, LOTS. Which all the rest - humans and his family - have good liquor tolerance.
<Erik Forbes> he's of the local breed, if i'm not mistaken
<@SLViehl> Then, possibly, you could have your human be very casual about something the barbarians take deadly serious
<Erik Forbes> ah hah
<@SLViehl> trade off the culture shocks
<Robert> Right. Someone on one side or other has to really put foot in mouth bad, go from light warm wit to deadly insult.
<Anne_Marble> Like -- he doesn't like poetry! :-O
<Erik Forbes> Oo good one anne
<@SLViehl> Or he touches someone's woman on the arm, which is an instant insult (or betrothal, or whatever)
<Lucas> What if the deadly insults bother him far less than the friendly insults?
<Sarah> Especially with the physical stuff. Punching somebody from the front is a way of saying "hi, how are you, good to see you", but hitting them from behind is a horrible insult. Etc.
<kewms> And suddenly MC is looking at the nasty end of a sword. And isn't quite sure why or what to do about it.
<Robert> Anne, thank you that's perfect. They take poetic achievement as seriously as martial or sorcerous and if a human hates one of the natives' poems, if the poem's bad and he's NOT cheering it - an American Critic reaction would get blades drawn!
<@SLViehl> Or he sings a drunken song, but they only sing over dead enemies they've slain
<Lucas> Because he doesn't understand the framework they're coming from?
<Scott> Or he's expected to produce poetry himself.
<Erik Forbes> that's perfect scott
<@SLViehl> All right -- Time, any last comments/suggestions for Robert?
<Anne_Marble> And his poetry rhymes! :-O (Or doesn't!)
<kewms> <Mental image of Vorgon poetry appreciation chairs.>
<Robert> And he doesn't realize how important that is. He's got my attitude about complimenting others' poetry so he won't be the one to do it but I have a good idea who would.
<@SLViehl> My only other suggestion would be to have someone who has an inkling of what is going on with both sides, to act as a buffer/defuser at a really tense point
<Robert> lol kewms! Thank you! Thank you, everyone! I've got the key to Next Conflict. That would be the human adoptee who worked for years to get into the House.
<Robert> And he'll do it by being the first to challenge and not killing the guy, just beat him up good.
<@SLViehl> Great suggestions, all -- Okay, Erik, you're up, Anne, you're next
<Erik Forbes> OK: With my current WIP (Fantasy), I want to basically show that my world is being systematically enslaved by the powers that be. I'm not quite sure how to do this though. The idea I'm getting about it is similar to concentration camps, etc. Any ideas? I've been doing a little research on concentration camps, but I'm not sure how to implement that in a setting with magic, etc...
<@SLViehl> To enslave people, you have to induce fear, take control, and remove freedoms.
<Robert> I've done it, Erik. I've done it and that works so well. First use magic to hide the camps, use it for all the technological applications Nazis had.
<kewms> Do enslavers try to hide what they're doing?
<Lucas> Does the magic act in any way that would prevent the forming of standard concentration camps?
<Erik Forbes> The main character, btw, deals with this on the
outside of all this enslavement... He's helping to stop them
<Anne_Marble> First you have to decide why they'd put them in camps instead of just killing them. Do they need something from the enslaved people?
<Erik Forbes> and the enslavers don't really care who knows, because they've already got a strong hold on the world
<@SLViehl> Cheap labor force, perhaps?
<Sarah> Start with identifying them. "Every magic worker must get this symbol tatooed on their foreheads.... Just in case there's an emergency, we can identify your useful talents right away...."
<Anne_Marble> Or a source of magic? :-<
<@SLViehl> oh, nice touch, Sarah
<Robert> Do they gain power from pain and blood magic? Death camps are good for that as power plants.
<Erik Forbes> anne: that's the one
<Scott> Perhaps by showing what is being taken away from the people as well as what's being done to them? Like forbidding certain festivals or holidays or religious observances.
<Lucas> Maybe there is something you could do, some way to obligate all of the people to you, make them carry out your will,
without anything as blatant as physical confinement.
<Anne_Marble> Wow, mind melds.
<kewms> Camps put them in one place where the general population can't see the messy details.
<Erik Forbes> oo that is nice sarah, cataloging
<Robert> Mongols v. Tatars. Kill all males above X height to destroy culture.
<Erik Forbes> ouch
<Erik Forbes>
<@SLViehl> What if the source of their magic was the reason for the camps -- to drain it off or store it
<kewms> Serbs v. Bosnians: Force women to have Serb children.
<@SLViehl> Then you'd have forced breeding programs, too
<@SLViehl> Now Katherine and I are mind melding
<Erik Forbes> actually, the reason for the camps is to have a strong people base... imagine melting people and using them to fuel magic. literally
<Robert> And you don't scare the victims into running away en masse. Control target group. Label them like yellow stars on Jews. Stir local bigotry.
<Robert> Yeah, then you've got death camps but you want the slaves outside them to keep working and not just go into a last ditch riot against it, so hide the camps. Lie about them.
<Anne_Marble> Euwww, creepy. I could use some of these ideas for my story.
<Erik Forbes> My MC is going to be captured and forced into one of these camps eventually, which is teh reason
<@SLViehl> I'd also start with herding up the least-liked people on your world, Erik -- a lot of blind eyes would be turned toward someone rounding up all the pedophiles or something
<Lucas> I guess I don't see why the idea of keeping people in camps is a problem. Are you looking for some particular twist to make it fit in with the magical reasons for its existence?
<Erik Forbes> good point
<Robert> Target any member of captive populace who shows any spine and break them down or shoot on spot.
<Erik Forbes> yes lucas
<kewms> Reading about the Holocaust could be helpful, if depressing.
<Erik Forbes> kew: I found a great site that has video and pictures online
<kewms> The Nazis started with mental defectives.
<Robert> Reward the craven, reward those that cringeand obey selectively but make them do disgusting things in complicity.
<@SLViehl> And make some trustees out of the camp prisoners -- have them collaborate, betray their people
<Erik Forbes> I like
<Suzanne> Read about the Japanese internment camps during WWII
<Robert> Sheila and I are mind melding
<Erik Forbes> lol
<@SLViehl> Other sources of enslavement/genocide we can offer Erik?
<Erik Forbes> I'm thinkin
<@SLViehl> Obviously, the way African-Americans were treated by slavers
<Anne_Marble> Turks versus Armenians
<Erik Forbes> oh yes
<Erik Forbes> anne: splain?
<Robert> Ghengis Khan. Rome itself. Rome really did a number on some of the tribes and did not actually make them citizens.
<kewms> Lots, unfortunately. Ukraine under Stalin. Rwandan genocide. Cambodia under Khmer Rouge.
<Anne_Marble> Giving out anthrax blankets to the Indians
<Lucas> Do the Death Camps possibly have some kind of bleed off into the surrounding area?
<@SLViehl> Various middle eastern tribal battles
<Suzanne> Stalin's killin' of Ukrainian artists and scholars, etc
<Anne_Marble> The Turks killed millions (I think) of Armenians early in the 20th century
<Scott> How about the central American indians under Spanish rule. The Church was a major tool in subjegating them.
<Robert> Inquisition.
<Anne_Marble> China under Mao
<Robert> Spain versus Mesoamerica
<@SLViehl> The Japanese were truly horrible to a number of their enemies, their camps were nightmares
<Lucas> If you're melting people down for energy, are you able to collect all of the energy? Or does some of it bleed off, eventually irradiating the area?
<Anne_Marble> Vlad Tepes and his stake fetish
<@SLViehl> Good example, Anne
<Erik Forbes> lucas: good one
Hadn't thought of that
<@SLViehl> Hot spots, Lucas?
<Jinx> Or can other people (rebels?) find a way to use that excess energy?
<Erik Forbes> There's lots of, well, pollution associated with this kind of thing
<Erik Forbes> like, sludge...
<Erik Forbes> lol
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Erik?
<Robert> Sludge might literally contain viable disease organisms.
<Scott> Hmmm, certain similarities to Holly's "Bones of the Past" tree-gods.
<Sarah> magical disease organisms....
<Erik Forbes> Thanks a lot guys :)Nnnnnnnnnnn
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of the sludge backlashing against the bad guys, myself
<Robert> Or newly magical ones that began as dysentery amoebae or something and are now contagious.
<Erik Forbes> (ack, that was Jasper sayin hi lol)
<Lucas> The pollution could cause lots of strange things.
<Robert> (Ari) Hi Jasper <bash>
<Lucas> I'd definitely investigate that as an option.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all -- Anne, you're up, then we'll take a five minute break. Jasper, behave
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Erik Forbes> I put him down
<Anne_Marble> My story involves a prison. ;-> The mages are imprisoned as a labor force used to find magic artifacts in an ancient city. They are fairly well treated -- they're heretics, not murderers. But...
<Anne_Marble> I need ways to keep 'em in line. I have some ideas on how they are kept from using the artifacts or their magic to escape. The big one is giant green orbs that trap rebellious mages forever. (think of "The Prisoner" series) Does this sound like it'll work?
<Robert> Yeah. Other things to keep them in. Mark them so if any DO escape they can't help being seen and noticed by anyone outside the prison as escapees.
<Anne_Marble> (At night, when the moon comes out, the orbs become clear, and the hero can see the trapped mages as they beg him to free them...)
<Anne_Marble> (At night, when the moon comes out, the orbs become clear, and the hero can see the trapped mages as they beg him to free them...)
<@SLViehl> I like it, but I'd like to see more to keep them in line, too
<Jinx> Does the orbs prevent the mages from using the artifacts, or is it an after the fact thing?
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, good idea.
<Lucas> Are the green orbs left to float around the prison area like giant, soccer balls with people trapped in them? That would be creepy.
<Suzanne> You might find some way to parrelle you discipline to real prison graded discipline -- Conduct Adjustment Boards
<Robert> I really like that, Anne
<kewms> Prisoner of Az.: evil soul-sucking guards.
<Erik Forbes> Anne: Make them glow
<Anne_Marble> It's an after the fact thing. Like the big bounce white things in The Prisoner. :->
<Erik Forbes> ever try to talk to a glowing person? they won't want to escape
<Scott> Maybe little green orbs follow them around and constantly watch them. If they try anything the orbs swallow them.
<Robert> Maybe the trapped mages' life force helps to power the rest of the wards on the prison too!
<@SLViehl> I was thinking, can you have something on them that triggers when they find an artifact? Sort of an orb alarm?
<Anne_Marble> Oh, that's a good idea, Scott.
<Jinx> I would think that the people using the mages would want more of a prevention type thing going.
<Anne_Marble> yeah, I was thinking they'd have a collar
<Erik Forbes> actually scott that is good
<Erik Forbes> that'd prevent conspiracy, too
<Jinx> SmartOrbs
<Robert> Collars are classic, they strangle or blast
<Erik Forbes> Warden's Eyes, hehe
<Anne_Marble> Maybe they escape because it's powered by Microsoft. ;->
<@SLViehl> If they have a weakness, their captors would exploit it. Something like silver to werewolves. Or like iron with the Fae, right?
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Erik Forbes> lo lanne
<@SLViehl> Oh, I like that, Erik. Creepy
<Anne_Marble> They're from different creeds and races, so they'd have different weaknesses, I think. Maybe.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<kewms> AOL-powered orbs kick them out randomly?
<Erik Forbes> LOL
<@SLViehl> Please, don't say the A word Katherine.
<kewms> <ducks> Sorry.
<Jinx> Perhaps it's more if they touch or tamper with anything magical -- something is triggered.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Erik Forbes> ducks? where??
<Robert> Maybe the longer they're in those orbs, the weaker they are and the more they're drained off into being magical artifacts.
<Anne_Marble> I like the idea of the trapped mages powering the wards.
<@SLViehl> What about some type of critter attached to them? (instant flash of the face-sucking thing from Alien)
<Erik Forbes> Robert: that'd be a scary proposition to those not yet in the orbs... It'd be reason enough not to fight.
<Lucas> The orbs could be the active parts, but there might be passive sensors of other varieties.
<Anne_Marble> The hero gets to break one of th orbs later because of his anti-magic powers
<@SLViehl> The critter could keep their magic abilities drained constantly
<Anne_Marble> I was thinking a fink systemw ould be very good.
<Anne_Marble> Also, if they use certain spells, they're "orbed."
<Erik Forbes> nice
<@SLViehl> Oh, yeah
<Anne_Marble> Offensive vs. defensive systems
<Robert> Wardens can release them after temporary sentence but if they're left in too long they die and ghosts power the system.
<Erik Forbes> Eew
<Erik Forbes> that scares me, hehe
<@SLViehl> Ick, Robert, but cool idea
<Anne_Marble> That could work. Ghost mages. (Oooh, title)
<Anne_Marble> Besides, "The Prisoner" has already been taken. ;->
<Anne_Marble> "I am not a number, I am a human mage!"
<Robert> The Prisoner and the Barbarian hasn't.
<@SLViehl> Wait, that's the title of my next romance
<@SLViehl> hee hee
<Robert> Gorok's Fear
<Jinx> <snickers>
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Anne_Marble> Actually, that sounds like a Diana Palmer. ;->
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, Gorok's Fear. :->
<Robert> Some trustees might also observe the prisoners and need bribing and kissing up to get even ordinary needs met.
<Lucas> There could be a group of people (slaves, maybe) who watch for transgressions because if any occur they're the ones who are punished.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, that's evil, Lucas.
<@SLViehl> Ouch, nice touch, Lucas
<Erik Forbes> Ouch
<Robert> They're longterm prisoners who've gained some privileges for good behavior and artifact hunting. There's reward for the artifacts. Food, and gradually, rank.
<Erik Forbes> Why would the mages care about these slaves though?
<@SLViehl> I wonder, would fear power the orbs?]
<Robert> Sure seems like a good power source to me, what do you think, Anne?
<Erik Forbes> fear? ehh
<Erik Forbes> why would fear, specifically, power anything?
<Robert> Also trusties above a certain level could get some version of a painstick for minor punishments.
<Erik Forbes> robert: like an agony whip, hehe
<@SLViehl> or maybe attract them -- I don't know, I was thinking of how the orbs would actually operate
<Lucas> If fear is necessary to give the orbs power over you, then someone might go psycho, lose his fear of
anything and manage to cause a lot of damage to the compound before being contained.
<Anne_Marble> I think it might use their magic, and that's why Gorok is able to defeat it (though not easily). But fear could work! Gorok gets over his fear of magic and is able to defeat it because he's simply pissed off.
<Erik Forbes> Fear powering magic is kinda cliche though, isn't it?
<@SLViehl> good twist, Anne
<Robert> And not a mage - his lack of mage ability has to be critical because some other prisoners might have had character before him. But they had the hook in them. THeir magic hooked into it. Gorok's got nothing for orb to hook into.
<Erik Forbes> it's used in just about every supernatural evil... "It lives on our emotions!"
<Erik Forbes> bah
<@SLViehl> Hatred is the usual thing, I think
<Erik Forbes> bah
<@SLViehl> Hatred is the usual thing, I think
<Lucas> Fear attracting magic has not been used much, even if emotional vampirism has been used a lot.
<Anne_Marble> True. Maybe magic powers the orbs. Pissed off barbarian without magic can overcome orb.
<@SLViehl> Okay, time -- any last comments. suggestions for Anne?
<Robert> Multiple nested defenses against escape and conspiracy to escape. Study Alcatraz and other top prixons.
<Anne_Marble> Ack!!! Commercial for Xerox on demand publishing!!! During the Olympics!
<Erik Forbes> I like those orbs, personally
hehe
<Lucas> The orbs could always develop their own agendas. If they absorb people, ghosts, magic, etc. this could have an animating effect after a while.
<Robert> Oh, set murderers to guard them!
<@SLViehl> Find a chink in their captor's armor, somehow get the hero to stumble over it. The orbs are cool
<Anne_Marble> And they're on an island. ;->
<@SLViehl> Good one, Robert
<Erik Forbes> good one lucas!
<Anne_Marble> Maybe the orbs become a hive mind powered by all those ghost magicians
<Erik Forbes> I like
<@SLViehl> Thanks all -- we're going to take a five minute break now, then Katherine, you'll be up
<Anne_Marble> The ships in that Robin Hobb novel become alive over the years...
<Erik Forbes> introduces an element the captor's didn't expect
<Erik Forbes> brb 1 sec
<Robert> I like that, Anne!
<Anne_Marble> And the orbs are pissed at having to stay on the island all that time! Ooooh!
<Robert> brb and changing file
<Lucas> Rebellion of the orbs!
<Robert> Yeah. You've got motivated ghosts all right!
<Scott> Is this stuck, or is it just me?
<@SLViehl> We can see you, Scott
<@SLViehl> or, at least, I can
<Lucas> Stuck? The chat room seems to be working, Scott.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes there's a bit of a lag
<Jinx> I just got stuck, too. Had to reload.
<Erik Forbes> back
<Sarah> Yeah, I get chat burps all the time. Especially if another window is doing something.
<Anne_Marble> There, copied.
<Erik Forbes> Thats what we get for using java :-\
<Anne_Marble> And to think I was going to ask about the stages of snowcat scratch infection instead! :->
<Erik Forbes> lol
<@SLViehl> Yes, if someone would like to blow up this conference room, I'll happily roast marshmallows over the remains.
<Erik Forbes> Sheila: I'm programming a new html-based chat room for Holly, actually, but I don't think she'll replace the conference rooms with it
<Robert> lol - got new file started, love autosave for old file
<@SLViehl> I like this orb thing better, Anne -- although if you want to get into infections, e-mail me
<@SLViehl> Bless you, Erik -- I'll use it
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Anne_Marble> Once Gorok gets inflamed (his infection, that is!), I will. ;->
<Sarah> Ooh, Sheila, that reminds me -- when Elysium hits the medicinal herb stage, can I beg info off you?
<@SLViehl> Sure, Sarah -- I've only got, hmm, ten thousand herbal books.
<@SLViehl> brb, tea kettle's whistling
<Anne_Marble> Ice dancing is weird.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Scott> Wow, I got locked up there.
<Robert> That reminds me - Sheila THANK YOU for a major plot point this book! All your rambles about Jenner inspired it!
<Sarah> Lol! Greath -- that's about how many Mari is supposed to have.
<Sarah> Greath=great
<Anne_Marble> I placed my first Ebay order last night! (Box of Hercules trading cards)
<Robert> What won't be revealed till much later in it is that the disease was sentient and decided to hive off the main bulk of it and become a cowpox style cure.
<Sarah> I placed my first online ticket purchase today! <g>
<Robert> MC did not know he infected all his beloved family with the vaccine.
<@SLViehl> Cats are great, aren't they, Robert?
<Lucas> Anne - Hercules trading cards? How did that ever come about?
<Robert> Cats are inspirational!
<Erik Forbes> Jasper's insane...
<Anne_Marble> Lucas> Not ancient Greek ones. ;->
<Erik Forbes> Catnip has a really big effect on him
<@SLViehl> Today I bullied ten quilters into donating child-sized quilts for Joe DiMaggio's Childrens Hospital, so it was a good day.
<Robert> lol papyrus trading cards discovered in ruins of Troy...
<Erik Forbes> LOL ROBERT
<Anne_Marble> Pictures from the TV series. :->
<Sarah> I decided to go to the ICFA whether or not I make the IAA cut. I feel all empowered. I made my first CREDIT CARD PURCHASE! <g>
<@SLViehl> All right, last chance to hit the bathroom/beverages/whatever before we move on
<Lucas> Ahh, that. Ok.
<Gayle> I think I'm going to go...I'm not staying focused on the discussion tonight
<@SLViehl> Good for you, Sarah. And where is ICFA again?
<kewms> Yay, Sarah!
<Anne_Marble> Luge!!!!
<@SLViehl> No problem, night Gayle
<Gayle> night all
<Robert> G'night, Gayle! Happy writing!
<Anne_Marble> Those people are insane!!!!!
<kewms> Anne: Olympics?
<Anne_Marble> Yups
<Sarah> Ft. Lauderdale (good thing I stopped waffling too -- only 8 seats left on the flight home). Night Gayle!
<Jinx> Night, Gayle!
<@SLViehl> Hooray!
<Anne_Marble> Ick. I hate writers who imply that anyone who didn't like her book obviously didn't read it. :-<
<@SLViehl> (for Sarah, not because Gayle is leaving)
<Sarah> Lol!
<kewms> I think all the head injuries in luge happen to people
before they take up the sport.
<@SLViehl> Las Olas Boulevard will never be the same
<Anne_Marble> But what about "skeleton"?!
<Robert> brb
<@SLViehl> 'cause I'm dragging Sarah all over it.
<Anne_Marble> Do they name that because people die when they reach the bottom?
<Sarah> Trying to organize a reading amongst the Tensors who aren't scheduled for one at the conference, just for fun. Wanna come? Poolside!
<@SLViehl> For you, I will actually make a public appearance, Sarah. Take photos.
<Sarah> (I'm getting Jory's Song to Florida one way or another)
<Sarah> YAY!
<kewms> Wow, Sarah, you've got
pull!
<Robert> back, didn't miss much, still scribing
<@SLViehl> I only make one public appearance a year, so take a lot of photos. Ha
<@SLViehl> Me and the ground hog
<Anne_Marble> I've heard people were having a very positive rah rah discussion about this author's new hardback, and some people who
liked the book criticized one part. So she came over and said something rather snippy! And the discussion died. Duh!!!
<kewms> I thought of you when I read Neal Stephenson's rant about public appearances and why he doesn't answer email.
<Robert> You're cuter than the groundhog. I like the way your scale patterns ripple in the sunlight.
<@SLViehl> Okay, folks, are we ready to get back to work (no dissing my scales, Robert)
<Robert> That was a compliment! Mew!
<Jinx> Scale patterns? I
told you to use that lotion, Sheila...
<@SLViehl> Katherine, showtime, and then I'm next
<Anne_Marble> "Ah, Ah, I can tell you what the discrepancy is: many of the reviewers have not read The Bronze Horseman which, I think, is a real impediment to their offering an accurate opinion. Had they read the whole book...<yada yada yada>" Sheesh!!!
<kewms> Okay, this is a multiparter, so be patient with me.
<Anne_Marble> Whoops. That might've been too long. :-<
<Anne_Marble> Sorry
<kewms> Three main conflicts that I'm trying to tie together:
<kewms> 1) MC's father is viewed as a traitor and murderer by both sides in a recently concluded war because of a massacre.
<kewms> He didn't do it, and MC wants to find out what really happened.
<kewms> 2) MC is also wild magical talent. Needs to learn control in order to avoid being manipulated and possibly killed.
<kewms> 3) Antagonist is scared witless of magic. Wants to track down and eradicate MC. That also allows him to get power and recognition he thinks he deserves.
<kewms> Setting is Renaissance Italy. Magic system works on artistic principles. Antagonist works for Inquisition-like faction.
<kewms> (Still researching accurate historical details)
<Robert> Question - was the massacre caused by magic? That might tie MC father plot to the other two more. 2 and 3 tie well already.
<kewms> So, I'm stuck. I've set up all three threads, but am not sure what happens next.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe the massacre was the result of magic gone haywire? When MC finds out, he can feel some sort of guilt.
<@SLViehl> Sins of the father revisited upon the son was first thing I thought of.
<Sarah> The MC is responsible and didn't even know it.
<Robert> Ren Italy, Savonarola may come into it. Ooh yeah, Sheila!
<kewms> Massacre was caused by magic gone haywire. No survivors, though.
<kewms> Therefore no witnesses.
<@SLViehl> That antagonist would be crazy not to try to use the father's alleged crimes against the son, smear-campaign wise
<Jinx> Might be interesting if the antagonist was somehow responsible for the massacre.
<Anne_Marble> When he tries to interview people, do they recognize him as the son of the alleged perpetrator?
<@SLViehl> And then the son has to prove his father's innocence in order to save his own life
<Robert> Is there forensic magic? Is there any magical way of viewing evidence of said massacre?
<Erik Forbes> like divination magic?
<kewms> The son was unaware of father's crime until his letter of introduction got him beat up.
<@SLViehl> No human survivors -- but what if something else emerged alive from the massacre?
<Lucas> As you said there were no witnesses, I'm guessing that counts out ghosts too.
<Robert> Yeah. Divination or testing the humors or something to know what kind of magic happened there "The signs are of X"
<Scott> Antagonist arranged massacre to frame father, thus eliminating political rival and setting in motion anti-magic pogrom?
<Anne_Marble> Animals near the massacre became more intelligent, like in Poul Anderson's "Brainwave." :->
<@SLViehl> Is using magic a crime in this society, Katherine?
<Robert> Antagonist doublecrossed Dad in a way that made Dad's safe and reasonable magic go awry
<kewms> Divination may not work. Magic has just been discovered. It's not a crime, but it is heresy.
<Anne_Marble> Killing someone in a war is a wonderful idea for the perfect crime, Scott
<kewms> So magic not commonly or openly used.
<@SLViehl> Oh, what if you had the antagonist use magic one time to set up father -- hypocrite
<@SLViehl> and the son could prove the antagonist did it in the end?
<Robert> If it's heresy the Church is going to be all over it and canon law allowed well, the Inquisition. Also Savonarola really, really applies - religious mobs! Crazed penitentes
<kewms> I think antagonist was too young at time of massacre. I think father was also wild talent and conjured a demon or something by mistake.
<kewms> I like the antagonist using a smear campaign on MC.
<@SLViehl> Wait, you've got two fathers here -- what if you can play those together somehow, interweave their lives?
<Erik Forbes> accidentally conjuring a demon... good lord
<Lucas> One of your other characters could have a stake in this. Is there any one who relies on either the protagonist or the antoginist to succeed/fail?
<Anne_Marble> Passing out broadsheets
<kewms> Ooh, father of antagonist also?
<Sarah> OOh, ooh, antagonist has unknown rogue talent and was actually the one responsible for the massacre...
<@SLViehl> Nice, Sarah
<Robert> I think Savonarola would benefit from any anti magical public sentiment, people would burn their vanities and forswear use of magic
<kewms> Father of antagonist was killed in massacre.
<kewms> Father of antagonist was killed in massacre.
<kewms> (Or possibly brother of antagonist's boss. Or possibly both.)
<Scott> He blames father of MC?
<@SLViehl> and, perhaps, antagonist fears his father caused the massacre?
<@SLViehl> Using MC's father to cover it up?
<kewms> Yes, father of MC is more or less universally blamed for massacre.
<Lucas> What if MC find
<Lucas> Cat on keyboard...
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Robert> I find my cat on keyboard all the time.
<kewms> Hmmm.... need to think about role of antagonist's father some more.
<@SLViehl> You've got some nice echo possibilities with the plot, Katherine -- juxtaposing the fathers, possibly
<Lucas> What if the main character discovers the true cause of the massacre, but for some reason revealing it would put him in an even worse position.
<kewms> <nodding> Yeah, I like that, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> What if MC and antagonist are related and don't realize it?
<@SLViehl> brothers?
<Erik Forbes> cousins, more likely
<kewms> I thought about that, but decided it's been done too often.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe antag's father framed the MC's father because of an affair his wife.... OK, never mind. :->
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Robert> Here's a thought. Bury an economic motive if they're relatted, a contested inheritance.
<@SLViehl> I like Lucas's suggestion too, about the MC being torn between the truth and his own welfare
<kewms> But the culture is full of factions with people switching sides constantly. Antagonist and MC are on opposite sides, but their fathers could have been on same side.
<Sarah> MC and antagonist are actually the same person, fissioned into two people by backlash from the massacre....
<Lucas> If the truth about the disaster is something that would mess up something that the MC really cares about, that would be a big problem.
<Erik Forbes> eew, sarah, that's cool
<kewms> Truth of disaster demonstrates just how dangerous MC's magic is. Giving fuel to Inquisitors.
<@SLViehl> twisted, Sarah
<Jinx> And create a lot of really good internal conflict.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, that's good, he reveals the truth and ends up in worse trouble.
<@SLViehl> The truth shall set him free -- to be burned at the stake, lol
<kewms> Also, that puts him on same side as antagonist temporarily.
<Erik Forbes> internal conflict, literally!
<Scott> Must go. Thanks for letting me sit in.
<@SLViehl> oh, definitely, Katherine -- great conflict
<kewms> Both want to find out what happened, but that turns them against each other.
<Lucas> Maybe the antagonist could also have a problem with the truth being revealed. There might be something he cares about more than destroying the main character, and the truth could threaten that.
<Jinx> Night, Scott
<Robert> See you, Scott!
<@SLViehl> Thanks for being here, Scott -- night
<Lucas> Err, that essentially what you said. Oh well.
<kewms> Yeah, Lucas. What if antagonist wants to think his father died heroically, instead of being senselessly slaughtered.
<Anne_Marble> See ya
<Erik Forbes> kew: to save face, yes, i like that
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions or comments for Katherine?
<kewms> This is great stuff. Thanks everyone!
<Robert> Use other conflicts of the times as glue, remember Gallileo, remember the Church has factions and put good priests in too.
<Erik Forbes> hey what happened to the whiteboard?
<Lucas> The group board is gone. Or at least it's blank for me.
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Anne_Marble> Here, Katherine, have a glowing green orb. ;->
<@SLViehl> Layer this conflict, Katherine -- it has great depth and lots of twist possibilities
<@SLViehl> Someone accidentally wiped it out
<Erik Forbes> doh
<Jinx> Blair did it!
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Robert> If MC and antagonist both want to bury the truth throw in someone who wants it revealed!
<@SLViehl> Suzanne doesn't appear to still be with us
<@SLViehl> or is she still out there somewhere?
<Erik Forbes> I don't see her
<@SLViehl> Anyone else want to throw out a question? I'll go last
<kewms> MC wants truth revealed until he finds out what it is. Then too late.
<Erik Forbes> Actually
<Erik Forbes> unless no one else wants to
<Erik Forbes> er, unless anyone else wants to, lol
<@SLViehl> Sarah, Lucas, Jinx?
<Jinx> Not me, thanks
<Anne_Marble> Anyone have a source for magic systems? I'm trying to decide what my mage believes. :->
<Anne_Marble> (Well, besides believing "That barbarian is a hunk.")
<Robert> <Ari> Why won't Robert let me have the printer?
<Erik Forbes> divine, internal, external, the planet, the universe, etc
<Sarah> Nope, Elysium still running strong.
<@SLViehl> The elements, leftover relics of a previous civilization, and the always reliable enigmatic stellae come to mind, Anne
<@SLViehl> Lucas, how about you?
<Lucas> I have a question. It's a bit general, but it is something I've been wondering about.
<@SLViehl> Shoot
<Erik Forbes> fire away
<Anne_Marble> Oh, i though people were going to give me URLs.
<Lucas> Is there something particular that a person should look out for when writing a book that traces a character, rather than a series of events?
<kewms> Anne:Buddhist prayer flags.
<@SLViehl> zero growth in the character -- the protagonist never changes, never learns anything, is programmed
<Anne_Marble> You mean like keeping a timeline?
<@SLViehl> Never messes up
<Sarah> The character has to.... oh, what SHeila said.
<@SLViehl> My editor calls characters that are perfect "Mary Sues" -- you don't want a Mary Sue
<Lucas> I mean a series of stories/books that is more like a detective series, where there isn't an overriding conflict that runs throughout the entire series.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes, the reader should hate your character, I think
<Sarah> Or if not quite hate, want to smack on occasion.
<@SLViehl> and then find a reason to fall in love with him/her again
<Robert> There's the background personal conflicts of MC in a detective series, Lucas. The soap opera stuff. Why his kid never writes. Why he doesn't visit the kid. Slowly painfully dragging on into growth or misery.
<Anne_Marble> Some series have different things happen to the detective. Like Alex Delaware was living with that chick at the beginning, they broke up, she came back. And his gay cop buddy Milo is cool. (The secondary characters can be just as important.)
<kewms> Yeah, there are always sub-conflicts that continue from book to book.
<Lucas> I've been considering the technique of tracking a character through the stories by mapping out how he will change by the end of each story and, if it isn't significant enough, doing something about that.
<@SLViehl> That's an interesting idea, Lucas -- I'd like to hear how that turns out for you
<Robert> That's neat. A full range of decent or dysfunctional kinships and friendships will help a lot.
<Lucas> Just for note - I'm not writing a detective book, so don't go too far with that analogy.
<@SLViehl> Sort of a character plotting schematic
<Anne_Marble> You might want to keep a book of background, sort of your own writers' guidelines. So you can quickly look it up later. :->
<@SLViehl> And someone, Anne I think, mentioned a timeline -- timelines are good for character-driven series
<Anne_Marble> And so you don't get angry letters from fans who say "He said he hated Indian food. But he
liked Indian food in Book Three!"
<Erik Forbes> anne: unless he grew a taste for it
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Lucas> Yes Shiela, that's kind of what I mean. There has to be development of character, or the story isn't that interesting. And if there isn't a big universe based conflict that re-asserts itself in every book, then there is even more emphasis placed on developing and changing the character.
<kewms> Unless he had a bad case of food poisoning from Indian food in book 4.
<@SLViehl> The character is the universe, Lucas -- I like that a lot
<Robert> Something subtle. Write around some important eye opening book like Sun Tzu and let him read it halfway through his career.
<@SLViehl> in a manner of speaking, of course
<Anne_Marble> Well, see, that's what you say in your letter to the fan. ;-> "He used to like it, but he had a bad experience while visiting Fresno."
<Robert> Yeah. I mean some idea he runs across during his adventures that changes his view of everything else.
<kewms> Put him in a situation that requires constant self-evaluation, with enough adrenaline so it doesn't become navel gazing.
<Anne_Marble> OT: I'll have to call sff.net. They tried to renew my yearly membership, but they had the old card number. Guess what happened? :-<
<@SLViehl> He has to find a reason to go on living, like all of us -- only in his case, maybe his reasons are more rocky than the average guys
<kewms> Examples include elite military units:
always practicing and breaking down potential mistakes.
<Lucas> "navel gazing", heh, there's a term I hadn't heard before.
<Anne_Marble> Right, give him a chronic disease. Like neurofibramatosis. (Did I spell that right?)
<@SLViehl> Close enough, Anne.
<Anne_Marble> "nf"
<@SLViehl> The Elephant Man disease
<@SLViehl> eventually he becomes more and more disfigured, ack
<@SLViehl> or something along those lines
<Erik Forbes> btw: I have another question, if there's time later
<kewms> Or the inverse: Michael Jackson disease. He becomes prettier and prettier.
<Anne_Marble> www.healthcentral.com
<Lucas> A chronic disease? Hmm. That could be strange, and it would give him more reason to despair, and thus make his decisions
not to give in more important.
<@SLViehl> oooh, Katherine, you're mean
<@SLViehl> I love it
<Lucas> That's really strange Katherine.
<kewms> sorry.
<Robert> Fibromyalgia could show the kind of character needed to resist constant chronic pain
<Robert> So could ordinary common but sometimes suicide inducing migraines.
<@SLViehl> or failing kidneys
<kewms> Or he could be in a profession that makes simply getting older and slower potentially career ending or life threatening.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions or comments for Lucas?
<Anne_Marble> Is this SF or fantasy? SF is full of professions that do weird thigns to you. Maybe he flies in FTL spacecraft, and whenever he comes back earth has changed! :->
<Lucas> It's fantasy.
<Robert> Magic might have cumulative side effects.
<kewms> Maybe he's living backwards, like Merlin?
<@SLViehl> Magic disease?
<Anne_Marble> OK, he goes into the elf kingdom, and each time he comes back, many years have passed. ;->
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for the suggestions -- Erik, you had another question you wanted to throw out to the group?
<Robert> Nice, Anne! I like that for letting long term consequences of previous adventures show! And giving people a distorted hazy reputation based view of him!
<Erik Forbes> Yes I did
<Anne_Marble> Anybody know what time it is in Texas? I think it might be too late to call sff.net tonight.
<Robert> Quarter to ten in Texas
<kewms> Central time, about 9:45.
<@SLViehl> They did the same thing to me this year, Anne, and I just e-mailed them.
<Anne_Marble> I just don't like e-mailing credit card info. :-<
<@SLViehl> Best wait 'til tomorrow then. Erik, go ahead
<Erik Forbes> In the very beginning of my WIP, I have a fight with about 50 dragon slayers and 3 dragons: 1 ancient dragon and 2 young'n's. They're caught off-guard, and thus grounded, but beyond that I feel I need more detail. I'm rather disappointed by the battle as it stands.
<Lucas> Ann - I considered him getting married to a god eventually, so that is a good reason for time to do strange things to him, if I want to develop things that way.
<Erik Forbes> but I also need to filter it through the senses of my POV character
<@SLViehl> and your POv character is a slayer, or a dragon?
<Lucas> Do the dragon slayers have dragon specific weaponry/spells/etc?
<Robert> Chain nets and ballistas and conventional weaponry deplyed to tie down the mouth and claws of those dragons at RANGE. Think range weapons and set piece ambush.
<Erik Forbes> neither: He's an onlooker. A human the dragons have been raising for the past 10 years, who happens to be deathly afraid of humans, btw
<Erik Forbes> lucas: yes, minus spells
<kewms> I tried this as an exercise after we talked in chat the other night. It seemed most natural for him to focus on Mom Dragon,
<Sarah> Read Barbara Hambly's Dragon books -- full of great ideas.
<Anne_Marble> What's his age at this time? concentrate on what someone of that age and experience would concentrate on.
<Robert> And don't forget poison. Inuit whalers used poison on their harpoons.
<Erik Forbes> all three need to be detained at the onset or the free ones'll go nuts
<kewms> watching her struggling to get airborne, snapping tail back and forth, trying to flame.
<Sarah> Poisoning spears to incapacitate them from a distance, then close to finish them off.
<@SLViehl> The dragons would need a little advantage, to keep the battle from lasting only five minutes
<Erik Forbes> aye, that's what I'm struggling with
<@SLViehl> Could they get off the ground, then the slayers net them or zap them to ground them, one by one?
<Robert> Speaking of harpoons! You have the ballista bolts, those are linked to chains and weights. A strike is dragging them one way or another.
<Erik Forbes> the momma dragon will have been fighting for a good while, until she sees my MC and stops fighting to let him escape.
<@SLViehl> And in the meantime, the dragons are diving and taking out some of the slayers? Like kamikazes?
<Jinx> Dragon's tails are generally pretty damaging, even on the ground. Depending on the type of dragon, of course.
<Erik Forbes> These guys are VERY prepared; they would consider any dragons off the ground a loss and try to escape.
<Sarah> Yeah, there's a lot of power in a tail (says she who has been whapped by a caiman's tail before). Add spikes to it, and you have a problem. Ooh, and razor-edged scales.
<Erik Forbes> Also: Flaming is a VERY big deal to dragons, and they seldom use it, even in defence of themselves.
<Jinx> A good sweep of a rather large tail could possibly keep a number of men away for a short period of time.
<@SLViehl> So, maybe have them not so prepared, or goof up enough to extend the battle a little bit
<Robert> Catapults. Keep pounding them. But poison the harpoons. Harpoons work on animals the size of whales.
<Sarah> Shoot stuff ant the wings first to take them out.
<@SLViehl> Maybe in their eagerness to slaughter the dragons, the slayers mess up
<Robert> Barbed points. The dragons that tear themselves free of one are wounding themselves deeper.
<@SLViehl> Tear the wings, they can't fly
<Anne_Marble> Right, they could kill some of their own by mistake. ("Whoopsie") (Wait, might be too convenient... :-> )
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Sarah> Make the scales really, really strong. It's damned hard to hurt a crocodilian because their scales have bones underneath.
<@SLViehl> Or their weapons explode on them because they were loaded or prepped too hastily
<Robert> Ballistas or catapults that have a bad spring or a frayed rope will snap back adn kill their users.
<kewms> Slayers hide behind dragon wings, out of reach of head and tail, until ballista renders head unthreatening.
<Sarah> If the dragons crouch and protect their vulnerable bits, it'll be really hard to hurt them. But if they rise to take off, they're vulnerable.
<Erik Forbes> mean trick
These guys deserve it tho
<Anne_Marble> Is an injured dragon more dangerous than an uninjured one? Maybe the humans realize this and try to kill the dragons outright but fail. Or maybe they make the mistake of trying to hurt the child, thuss annoying the dragons.
<kewms> MC considers charging a ballista to cut the ropes. Does or doesn't depending on what you think fits.
<@SLViehl> Or they drag a young, captive dragon into the clearing as bait
<Erik Forbes> They won't know about my MC until after the battle.
<Erik Forbes> And remember, my MC is DEATHLY afraid of humans... I'm talking severe phobia.
<Robert> Little more of a heartbreaker, Erik, if she has unhatched eggs they smash those.
<Erik Forbes> Ooo
<Erik Forbes> that's just wrong...
<Erik Forbes> <inserts unhatched eggs into storyline>
<kewms> Or kidnap eggs to raise hatchlings as pets.
<Jinx> Are the slayers able to prep the area they'll be fighting in ahead of time?
<Jinx> That could make a big difference in the type of battle you'll have.
<Erik Forbes> not really jinx: the dragons live in the battlefield
<@SLViehl> Or catch the dragons when they're sunning themselves -- low point of their daily cycle, at sleep
<Erik Forbes> exactly
<Erik Forbes> I'm also trying to think of how to actually introduce all this
<Sarah> Or just after eating.
<Robert> So they're limited in siege weaponry and pit traps and so on.
<@SLViehl> good idea, Sarah
<Jinx> So they probably have to get in close in order to keep the dragons from flying, or disable them right away.
<Erik Forbes> cause this battle (thru the MC's POV) is the entry into the book
<Sarah> They left out a couple cows or something.
<Erik Forbes> I'm trying to find a way to do all this
<kewms> Kidnapped eggs gives MC a reason to overcome his phobia and pursue slayers.
<Sarah> (that's how we move guppies -- stuff them silly and then net them when they're slow and stupid)
<@SLViehl> Oh, excellent, Katherine
<Erik Forbes> kew: oh he has reasons: revenge, mostly
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Erik Forbes> but that'd give him even more
<@SLViehl> yeah, those are his little brothers and sisters
<Erik Forbes> hehehe
<@SLViehl> Okay, folks -- time, any last suggestions/comments for Erik?
<kewms> Especially if dragonettes will be raised not as pets but to be slaughtered eventually.
<Jinx> Ever corner a cat who doesn't want to be cornered? Think of a cat with a really big tail. <g>
<Erik Forbes> actually slaughtered eventually is most likely
<@SLViehl> or for food, ack, Katherine
<Erik Forbes> lol jinx
thanks
<Erik Forbes> sheila: for food is also accurate, lol
<Erik Forbes> thanks a bunch guys
<Erik Forbes> very very helpful
<@SLViehl> And thanks to everyone for another terrific Friday night!
<Robert> It was great Sheila! Thank you!
<Anne_Marble> clap clap clap clap
<Erik Forbes> <applaud> heh
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Sarah> Thank you, Sheila!
<kewms> Thanks! I'll mark my calendar for the next one.
<@SLViehl> You all are getting very good at this think tank stuff
<Lucas> I thought you had a question, Shiela. Or did you decide to wait for another time?
<Anne_Marble> Thank you, Sheila! (And thanks to AOL for being kind to her after its first ... errror in judgment)
<Erik Forbes> ya wait, you had one
out with it
<@SLViehl> I'll ask a quick question, if the group doesn't mind
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Jinx> Go ahead!
<Robert> Mind! I've been waiting! Please, go ahead!
<Erik Forbes> not a bit, this is fun
<Lucas> No problem. Go ahead.
<@SLViehl> My editor just killed the titles of my new triology for the fourth time
<kewms> Sure, spit it out!
<Erik Forbes> doh
<@SLViehl> So I'm thinking, how about I have a contest on the site for the titles?
<Robert> That would be fun!
<@SLViehl> Winner would be chosen by my editor, and get a special acknowledgement in the books
<Anne_Marble> Cool! (I know I'll lose, but it's still cool! <g>)
<Erik Forbes> that would be cool
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Jinx> Your fans would love that.
<Sarah> Cool!
<Anne_Marble> That would be a great promotional thingy, too.
<kewms> Can you give enough detail without giving spoilers?
<Lucas> Bleh. Has your editor given you any suggestions as to what
would be accepted?
<Robert> Yeah! That would be a kick!
<@SLViehl> Because, truthfully, I can't think oif another title for these darn books
<@SLViehl> I'd post a teaser about each book, to give you a general idea of the plot
<Robert> And a good exercise for those of us who sweat blood and call it Agravation Novel till 60k...
<Robert> Purr. Cause the title shouldn't give away the end either usually.
<Jinx> I think it's a great idea, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> I'd also post old the old titles so you could see what crashed and burned -- so, good idea, or bad idea?
<Erik Forbes> hehe good idea
<Sarah> Good idea!
<Erik Forbes> got my vote
<Lucas> The contest idea would probably work great.
<kewms> Good idea!
<Robert> Good idea since the old titles may edit into the new ones if someone tightens them or twists them.
<Jinx> Just don't forget the usual disclaimers.... <g>
<Lucas> The way that kind of thing works, you might end up having to write more books just because you get so many good ideas from all the titles.
<@SLViehl> Okay, so I'll run it past Holly, get her okay then put it up on the site
<@SLViehl> That would be a nice bonus, Lucas
<@SLViehl> And that, folks, is a wrap
<Erik Forbes> whee
definately coming next week, hehe
<kewms> You're posting transcript, Robert?
<Jinx> Great session! Thanks, Sheila and everyone!
<Robert> I'm a regular. I'd have to be down. I'm sending transcript to Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Please do -- we'll be having think tanks every Friday, and everyone is welcome
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Lucas> This is a really fun activity.
<Anne_Marble> tYay
<Robert> And then proceeding to major cross cultural embarrassments at family dinner. <G>
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Lucas> As if I actually had to say that.
<@SLViehl> And now, I'm going to feed my cats. Robert, thanks for transcribing for me. Take care, everyone
<Jinx> Night, all!
<Robert> These always make me want to write a lot, Sheila! Every time!
<Anne_Marble> See ya
<kewms> Good night!
<Sarah> Makes you feel you're doing something productive, even when you can'd focus on your own writing. <G>
<Lucas> Good night Shiela!
<Erik Forbes> hey how do I save a copy of this?
<Robert> G'night, Sheila! Hapy writing, happy cats!
<Robert> Sheila will post it when her cats are fed. Right?
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<@SLViehl> Good night everyone -- see you around the site -- bye! (I'll post the transcript, soon as I get it, Robert
<Sarah> Night Sheila!
<Robert> Night, Sheila! Happy writing and many purrs around you!
<Lucas> Erik - A transcript will be posted, but you can save your own copy by highlighting and then hitting CTRL+C keys to copy it to the clip-board. (That's supposing a windows system, of course...)
<Lucas> Good night folks. Bye for now.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Erik Forbes> thanks lucas
<Erik Forbes> I was hoping for an easier way, lol
<Robert> Night all! Off to send transcript!
<Erik Forbes> nite everyone