<@SLViehl> Hi Erik
<Erik Forbes> heya
<Erik Forbes> how goes?
<@SLViehl> Crazy here. Got a question for the group tonight?
<Erik Forbes> I sure do...
<Erik Forbes> :-\
<@SLViehl> You'll be first, then.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Erik Forbes> great, i love spotlights
<Erik Forbes>
<@SLViehl> This is like a deli, first come, first served <g>
<Erik Forbes> huhuh
<@SLViehl> Hey Robert
<Robert and Ari> Purr at you!
<Erik Forbes> It's less a question specific to writing, more on the hows of it. Robert (and Ari) will be familiar with the question... hehe
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> No problem, sounds interesting
<Erik and Jasper> Jasper says Purr to Ari
<Robert and Ari> Cool! the cats are showing up to Think Tank tonight!
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<@SLViehl> Robert, I just broke my personal all time month record on wordcount
<Robert and Ari> Sheila - Jasper has a helmet wiht a spike on it!
<Erik and Jasper> thanks
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Robert and Ari> yayy Sheila! What's your count?
<Erik and Jasper> ya what's the count?
<@SLViehl> 223K
<Erik and Jasper> !
<Robert and Ari> !!!
<Erik and Jasper> @#$@!#$
<Robert and Ari> >^..^< !!!
<Erik and Jasper> o.O
<Erik and Jasper> o.O
<Erik and Jasper> O.o
<@SLViehl> I'm not even sure if I believe it.
<Erik and Jasper> that's insane
<Erik and Jasper> I only wish
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Robert and Ari> I believe it. I cranked out 120,450 in about 13 days.
<Erik and Jasper> <cries>
<Robert and Ari> If I'd gone totally nutsoid and done another novel like Strigler's Succubus it's almost within reason. <G>
<@SLViehl> This is what happens when an editor says, "So, can you write three books in ninety days?" and you say yes, and then --
<Erik and Jasper> most I've ever done in a day is maybe 2 pages?
<@SLViehl> the other editor wants a book
<Robert and Ari> You'll get there, Erik. I'm doing Prolific Workshop again to brainstorm the hows - the Midnight Show one on march 3
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, that would be motivational.
<Erik and Jasper> Midnite? as in, 12:00 eastern?
<@SLViehl> How long have you been writing, Erik?
<Robert and Ari> Yep, midnight EST
<Erik and Jasper> well, bout a month
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Erik and Jasper> I tend to expect a lot out of myself...
<Robert and Ari> That has a lot to do with it Erik. I've done like over thirty novels.
<@SLViehl> I've been doing it for 27 years. So I got more practice.
<Erik and Jasper> that's certainly true
<Erik and Jasper> Anne
Jebbo
<@SLViehl> Welcome Anne & Jebbo
<Anne_Marble> I actually thought of a question ahead of time this time. (Oh, and if I type weird, it's beacause of this bloody wrist pad. )
<@SLViehl> We won't grade you, Oh Publicity Goddess
<Erik and Jasper> Hey sheila, question: In the whiteboard, is that a dead fish at the bottom, or one of those bottom feeders?
<@SLViehl> It's an editor -- I mean, it's a bottom feeder
<@SLViehl> lol
<Erik and Jasper> rofl
<Robert and Ari> rofl!
<Erik and Jasper> nice one
<@SLViehl> You can tell it's an editor because it already wants CHANGES
<Erik and Jasper> Ahhhhhhh
<Anne_Marble> I resemble that remark.
<@SLViehl> Robert, do you have a question for the group tonight? Also, Jebbo, do you?
<Robert and Ari> I like the way if you read the plot points left to right they make a macabre sense. Open with a car crash. Kill the hero.
<Jebbo> I don't at the moment . . .
<Robert and Ari> Sort of a topic still on rewriting, yeah, still phrasing it.
<@SLViehl> Okay, if you think of one, let me know and I can add you on to the end of the roster
<Robert and Ari> I'm on chapter 12 and I finished my Dares on time!
<Jebbo> OK
<@SLViehl> WTG Robert
<Anne_Marble> M y new movable wrist pad for the mousepad has leopard spots, it's cute
<@SLViehl> You animal, Anne
<Robert and Ari> Your advice helped so much! I did all the short story rewrites first to warm up and then charged in. I trusted if I got to chapter 8 rewriting I would not stop.
<Robert and Ari> Oh that's sexy Anne
<@SLViehl> Straight through always works for me, Robert
<Robert and Ari> Doing it this soon after writing, my continuity isn't screwed, the world of the book is still fresh in mind.
<@SLViehl> So what are you eating, Anne? Torture me
<Robert and Ari> Though I found the funniest typo I have ever made: Ilyaran let out a blood curdling speech.
<Anne_Marble> Nothing yet, but it's waiting in hte microwave. (Maryland Crab soup)
<Erik and Jasper> Not another soup... My keyboard is still sticky
<@SLViehl> You're also keeping tight focus that way, Robert
<Erik and Jasper> gah!
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<@SLViehl> Old Bay seasoning?
<Anne_Marble> Yup -- but not a lot
<@SLViehl> Don't rub your eyes
<Anne_Marble> Good idea
<@SLViehl> I like that typo, Robert. Sounds like a Jesse Helms moment
<@SLViehl> I'm going to give the stragglers another minute, then get started
<Robert and Ari> rofl! Yep. I kept imagining him ranting at high speed while gymnastically flipping onto the table before brawling...
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Anne_Marble> Do I have time to get hte food and visit the WC?
<@SLViehl> Sure, go ahead Anne
<Robert and Ari> Worse, I could do the routine, Ilyaran is the character I put in that
I could costume, the short one.
<Anne_Marble> Pitter patter pitter patter....
<@SLViehl> I got the neatest non-writing project waiting for me when I get through this last deadline
<@SLViehl> I'm restoring a "hidden" quilt
<Robert and Ari> Wow!
<Erik and Jasper> "hidden" ?
<@SLViehl> I think it may date back to the 19th century. Looks like it from what I can see so far
<Robert and Ari> You are far beyond me in quilting. I'm drifting toward Art Quilts Machine Made - gold thread and weird thread and fancy fabrics.
<@SLViehl> A hidden quilt is one that someone recovered with new material when it started to wear out
<@SLViehl> Like a quilt within a quilt
<@SLViehl> Usually a quilt doesn't wear out for 20 to 50 years, so you can find some wonderful old quilts hidden inside relatively newer ones.
<Erik and Jasper> ah hah
<Robert and Ari> That's a serious authenticity project! I have exactly one quilt that I'm hand quilting, just to do one the old fashioned way. It's reversible so that all that effort shows up nice.
<Jebbo> I have more projects than I know what to do with, ranging from an edition of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, through a transcription of part of the Gascon Rolls to some software for role playing games . . . ho hum
<@SLViehl> I did one king size quilt entirely by hand, just to see if I could do it. Took me four years.
<Anne_Marble> I did a couple of fuzzy posters.
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, I believe it. I'm sort of halfway down the border on mine.
<@SLViehl> Welcome, Yvonne, Katherine, and Anon_69
<Katherine> Hi!
<Yvonne> hi
<Crista> Hello.
<Erik and Jasper> heya
<@SLViehl> Let me get the roster up on the board
<Robert and Ari> Purr <bash> everyone
<Erik and Jasper> Jasper: Meeowwww
<@SLViehl> Hiya, Crista. Okay, who DOESN'T have a question for the group tonight?
<Yvonne> I don't
<Anne_Marble> Aroooooo, Werewolves of London
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Jebbo> Nothing yet
<Katherine> I'm stalling in my usual way. Go ahead and put me down and I'll pass if needed.
<@SLViehl> You can always pass if we get to you and you're not ready.
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get the ball rolling -- Welcome to the Writer's Think Tank, I'm your host, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLViehl> Anybody not know how this session works?
<Yvonne> the cats are probably a little confused
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<@SLViehl> lol
<Erik and Jasper> Jasper's a quick learner, and I think Ari's been here before
<@SLViehl> Okay, our frist question tonight comes from Erik, and Robert will be next. Erik, you're up.
<Yvonne> did you add yourself to the board Sheila?
<Erik and Jasper> ok:
<Robert and Ari> Ari has been here from the beginning. >^..^<
<@SLViehl> Yep
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Erik and Jasper> Lately I've identified a major problem that's keeping me from working: Lack of Focus on one idea. How do you stay focused on one idea when you have fifty million others vying for attention? I've tried writing them out and storing them for later, but either they never leave, or when they do they're replaced by other new ones. What do I do to keep focused?
<Robert and Ari> Write fast. Work on a novel so that a lot of the new ideas subsume into it.
<@SLViehl> Start an idea notebook -- write down short sentences about every idea, and get them out of your head
<Crista> I always use the carrot method. I'll let myself play with the new idea, but only if I get a certain number of words or pages done on the current project.
<Anne_Marble> Put the other ideas ina a journal.
<@SLViehl> Think of someone giving you $5000.00 for the idea you're working on.
<Jebbo> Focus on one main idea but schedule one day a week to work on other stuff
<Erik and Jasper> that'd do it, lol
<Yvonne> only 5k?
<Anne_Marble> Ask yourself if the ideas can be incorporated in your current work, if turned around somehow.
<Anon_88> Blair
<@SLViehl> Also, give yourself a day off from your idea -- maybe work on a new idea every Friday.
<Robert and Ari> That 'lots and lots of ideas' is how I manage to always come up wiht new plot twists real fast.
<Katherine> Some of it's just practice, I think. It's easier for me to ignore side ideas than it used to be.
<@SLViehl> 5K is SF industry standard boilerplate advance for a first novel, I'm afraid
*Anon_87* Just stopped by to say neither Nathan or I will be here tonight...it's my birthday (Gayle
<Yvonne> bummer
<Katherine> I think I'm less worried that the idea well will run dry, so each individual idea is less important to me.
<@SLViehl> Hey Blair
<Erik and Jasper> Most of the ideas I come up with though are so wildly different...
<Blair> <waves>
<@SLViehl> Hi Gayle & Nathan, Happy Birthday Gayle!
<Robert and Ari> Build a big universe so different planets have different feel!
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> Are you really excited about the idea you're working on now, Erik? Or does it kind of fade out on you?
<Anon_87> g> hi all....bye all
<Erik and Jasper> Well they all kinda fade out on me... like, i lose interest for some reason.
<Erik and Jasper> like, they're great ideas and all, but i just kinda lose interest
<@SLViehl> Have you ever thought of combining them?
<Katherine> If you lose interest, it may be that the idea isn't well developed.
<Jebbo> Is this 'cos you have explored them fully?
<Erik and Jasper> hmmm
<Jebbo> If so, maybe you need to combine them for added complexity
<@SLViehl> I think you need to feel really passionate about an idea to stay with it.
<@SLViehl> So it should be something that really matters to you, not just a "great" idea.
<Erik and Jasper> hmmm
<Erik and Jasper> how do i find something like that?
<@SLViehl> When you're emotionally invested in your work, you want to keep working on it.
<Robert and Ari> That and maybe what you're getting are disconnected scene ideas.
<Erik and Jasper> that sounds right roberrt
<Katherine> As you think about an idea, do you see more possibilities, or do you start to feel locked in?
<Erik and Jasper> locked in, pretty much
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> What's fun for you to write, Erik?
<Robert and Ari> Rants, Erik - themes. If the theme is something that matters, like freedom or something else that you need to write about, it'll reflect over and over in the scenes. They're all jigsaw puzzle pieces.
<Erik and Jasper> i don't really know...
<Erik and Jasper> I haven't been writing for very long, I don't really know what's fun yet.
<@SLViehl> The cool thing about becoming a writer is exploring all those ideas, and finding the ones that matter to you
<Jebbo> but you know what you care about. The things that make you rant; write about those
<Yvonne> What questions keep popping up in your life? Those are the things that interest you.
<Jebbo> Of course, some may need disguising a bit
<Anne_Marble> figure out what
really excites you about certain ideas. Is there a theme? Do you like some more than others? Then find if there's some way to modify it to apply to the current story.
<Katherine> Give yourself time and space to explore, too. Don't feel like you have to decide Right Now what you'll write about for the next 20 years.
<@SLViehl> What makes you argue until 2 am in the morning with one of your friends? That kind of idea
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Erik and Jasper> i see
<Robert and Ari> When I started Raven Dance I had four or five good openers about different characters. I found out eventually that was one long chapter recruiting and introducing the core band of rebels.
<@SLViehl> One more way to explore new ideas is to write them in short stories versus novels. Test drive them that way.
<Erik and Jasper> one of my friends and I have looong arguments about the nature of reality...
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Jebbo> So what is the nature of reality?
<Erik and Jasper> He believes in the "I think, therefore I am..." I disagree with him
<Robert and Ari> Nature of reality is a fine theme. You could hang a story on that.
<Yvonne> lots of stories
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Katherine> LOL. You could hang a career on that!
<@SLViehl> Good idea to get passionate about
<Jebbo> Strong v weak anthropic principle. Good themes
<@SLViehl> Will take you the rest of your life to explore.
<Erik and Jasper> that's true... and actually that's the theme that's been constant through my ideas
<Yvonne> didn't Philip K.Dick write about that?
<Erik and Jasper> So what you're saying is concentrate more on individual theme and less on individual idea?
<Erik and Jasper> Hmm
<Anne_Marble> I once wrote a whole bunch of novel openings for several stories that interested me. When I couldn't stop writing on one of them, I knew the one I was going to work on next.
<@SLViehl> Start with theme as a foundation
<Jebbo> Heck, that can even unify SF and Fantasy if you bring multi-universe ideas in
<Robert and Ari> That and start treating the ideas as character introductions within the theme.
<@SLViehl> Build on that. Your novel is a mansion, and you get to be the architect
<Erik and Jasper> Wheee
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Katherine> Anne's advice is good. Don't feel like you have to pursue all ideas. It's okay to let some go.
<Robert and Ari> Treat them as scene ideas. Put them on index cards. Arrange them on the floor till there's a plot.
<@SLViehl> Great point, Anne & Katherine
<Erik and Jasper> hmm
<Robert and Ari> See how many of them you can put in one novel.
<Anne_Marble> At this point, worry about what is interesting you. I tried them out story openings on my mother and got the standard "I want to know more about this. Who are these people?" She didn't understand that I didn't know yet myself, I was just trying to find the magic in the right idea.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments/suggestions for Erik?
<Erik and Jasper> I get a lot of my ideas from my dreams, sometimes. I've told Robert about a couple of them
<@SLViehl> I keep a dream journal, dreams are really great sources of some strange scenes.
<Erik and Jasper> I have really vivid dreams
<Anne_Marble> Thanx, Katherine and Sheila
<Yvonne> <shudder>wouldn't touch my dreams if you paid me
<Jebbo> Read Stephen Baxter for a career built around the nature of reality
<Erik and Jasper> I keep wanting to do that, sheila... I keep forgetting to write them down once i wake up
<Robert and Ari> An unwritten novel is a hydra, it's like a sea anemone with that many branches and one center.
<Crista> It only has to have one? <g>
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> Above all, have fun with your idea, Erik. If it's not fun for you, it's going to feel like drudgery after a while
<Erik and Jasper> that's true
<Erik and Jasper> thanks a bunch guys
<Crista> Don't be afraid to toss an idea and keep playing until you find something you like, Erik.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks everyone -- Robert, you're up, Anne, you're next
<Erik and Jasper>
<Robert and Ari> Yayy, here's my clumsily phrased question. I just sampled a few pages of Clive Cussler.
<Yvonne> uh oh
<@SLViehl> oh dear
<Robert and Ari> I noticed that he used some passive voice constructions, more than that a lot of metaphor in his descriptions. Also that characters quoted well known Common Sayings often in the scenes.
<Anne_Marble> Yikes
<Scott> Sorry I'm late again
<@SLViehl> In other words, he gets away with murder
<Robert and Ari> I did a darn good job of beating most of the passive voice out of my prose. Also unfortunately for a while most of the description. I scarcely dare use a metaphor.
<@SLViehl> No problem Scott
<Robert and Ari> It's a subtle thing, but maybe some metaphors in description do help? I'm not as sure of my taut plain prose as I was.
<Katherine> I think it's a personal preference thing.
<Robert and Ari> Where would be good places to use poetic techniques like metaphor to explain things to readers or give depth?
<@SLViehl> Visual references -- I use metaphors to avoid the yada yada yada descriptive passages
<Robert and Ari> I think of metaphor or alliteration as like, gingerbread on a Victorian house? ANd I might have cut too much of it.
<@SLViehl> What I call "weather reports"
<@SLViehl> It was a dark and stormy night . . .
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<@SLViehl> please. (wince)
<Erik and Jasper> weather reports
<Jebbo> Hmm . . . simile can be used to help visualise the truly strange "it was like . . ." but I've never thought about metaphor
<Katherine> Metaphor is a great way to show how a character feels about a setting.
<Robert and Ari> Cussler uses it a
lot and so do some other bestseller types - and the cliches. I really woner about all the cliches characters quote.
<Yvonne> "The spires of the temple jutted upwards like the black horns of a demon."
<Erik and Jasper> two different characters would use metaphor in the same setting in two different ways depending on their mood
<Robert and Ari> That one works for me, Yvonne
<@SLViehl> The night was so dark I felt blind. And if that storm got any bigger, I was moving to Nebraska.
<Katherine> And also, by the metaphors he chooses, you can show the characters background and frame of reference.
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, that's beautiful, Sheila!
<Anne_Marble> There are ways to do description in different ways. For example, don't make dramatic events always happen in bad weather
or in perfect weather. (Both are usually cliches.)
<Jebbo> Mood; I suppose it helps establish mood
<@SLViehl> Personal rather than pat metaphors, Robert.
<Erik and Jasper> sheila: That's a sarcastic character
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> That's why it's personal -- you feel the character through the metaphor
<Yvonne> @Erik, hiss, catcall
<Erik and Jasper> Ok I'm putting Jasper down...
<@SLViehl> you connect with the reader on a more intimate level
<Erik> There we go
<Erik> what yvonne?
<Erik> lol
<Robert and Ari> I've done that sometimes with alien characters that quote the cliches of their culture. I just never use the American cliches.
<@SLViehl> Plain "no-frills" prose goes in and out of fashion. What I think of as the Jack Webb School of Writing
<Katherine> Metaphor and simile do not mean cliche.
<Anne_Marble> characters can see the setting and then see the thingies and doo-hickeys that remind them of their past. "There's the scratch in the wall where I clawed the wall when i was tense..."
<Robert and Ari> Cause now that you mention it, pov character has something to do with it and some of my heroes are bitterly direct in what they say, they fear being misunderstood.
<@SLViehl> Just the facts, ma'am
<Yvonne> I don't think you want to emulate Cussler's style, his plots maybe, but not his writing.
<@SLViehl> Readers want you to capture their imagination, not interrogate them
<Jebbo> The Marcel Proust school . . . the smell of a madelaine kicks of a tome
<Erik> huh?
<@SLViehl> Cussler established himself for other reasons -- probably plot. Everything that limps along in his novels is overshadowed by the one great thing he does. I guess, I don't like him myself
<Robert and Ari> If I have alien native characters, they use the native alien metaphors and phrases 'twined housetrees of my garden' and things like that to show culture. I just don't like using familiar ones at all!
<Crista> I'm sorry I have nothing to offer on this, but I haven't read Clive Cussler. <g>
<Anne_Marble> And don't forget that many popular writers have sucky writing gimmicks. Erle Stanley Gardner got away with a
lot. So do many best-selling writers.
<@SLViehl> Then don't, Robert. Go with your instincts
<Yvonne> no one says you have to Robert, Cussler gets away with a lot of bad writing
<Katherine> Yeah, what Sheila said. You want your voice, not imitation Cussler.
<@SLViehl> Success does not equal expertise.
<Robert and Ari> That was one thing I wanted to know - what others thought of Cussler, because I did only sample him. I just know he makes lotta money.
<Erik> Hey, I just noticed I'm Erik X on the whiteboard... That like Malcom X?
<Jebbo> I've never read any Cussler
<@SLViehl> Let's suggest some good examples for Robert, group
<Robert and Ari> Sure it is, Erik
<Katherine> Remember that Hemingway and Faulkner both wrote Deathless Prose.
<@SLViehl> Stephen King's early work. His metaphors kick butt.
<Yvonne> Cussler is great at worldwide conspiracy plots, and super heroic characters, but that's about it,oh and great villains
<@SLViehl> I always want to slap Cussler's heroes by page three.
<Anne_Marble> Thomas Harris (but not Hannibal) for describing horrid things yet being srangely low key.
<@SLViehl> good one, Anne, I agree
<Yvonne> good examples? that's a tough call, I adore Lovecraft
<Robert and Ari> I wanted to slap the guy on the page I sampled and I had about half a dozen alien espionage agents laughing at him.
<Robert and Ari> Oooh your'e right. I'm always rereading Silence of the Lambs for style. I wore out two copies.
<Yvonne> you could probably start with the classics
<Jebbo> Italo Calvino's _If on a winter's night a traveller_ alternates first chapters in different styles with the "real" story; those first chapters are all good examples of various styles
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<Yvonne> (hmm, maybe I shouldn't read so much cheeze)
<Anne_Marble> Sean Russell is good with viewpoints, I don't remember how is style is. Great I'm sure. (I
want some of his characters, really really want them. <g>)
<@SLViehl> I like Ken Follet, he has a very crisp writing style without being Jack Webb, if you're looking to get away from metaphors, Robert.
<Anne_Marble> I like Jack Webb, but I'm weird.
<Yvonne> Ludlum, very straight forward
<Robert and Ari> I've already gotten away from them but I might be trying to put just a dash of it back in - and find the key points they'd have the most impact too and serve the most purposes in the narrative.
<Anne_Marble> What I read of T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom (izzat the title) was cool. And you can (ahem) download it from Australia.
<@SLViehl> The Key to Rebecca is one of my all time, favorite books. Very clean, great pacing.
<@SLViehl> Oh, I know who I was trying to think of -- Cold Mountain, have you read that one?
<Katherine> Tony, ummm, whatsisname. Navajo detective stories.
<Yvonne> Hillerman
<@SLViehl> Hillerman
<Jebbo> Cold Mountain is on my
to read pile
<Katherine> Yeah, him. Very plain description.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks all. Anne, you're up, Katherine, you're next
<Anne_Marble> In my barbarian/mage story, I've been writing the whole thing from Gorok's POV. But I've also considered interspersing all the chapters with journal entries from Wulf's journal. Instead of reiterating what happens, he'll just comment on what happened and tell us what he was thinking. Sometimes his thoughts will be a surprise. Good idea? Sucky? What?
<Robert and Ari> I think what I want is a style that's like Trevellian Minimalism - heavily jeweled prose but it's not, under that it's horribly simple and every detail not only means something but sweeps everything forward.
<@SLViehl> How long will the journal entries be, Anne?
<Robert and Ari> Good idea. Gorok's tale is a M/M romance, simultaneous romance and buddy novel. Show both of the guys.
<Anne_Marble> I would home to keep them brief.
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of a few lines. Five paragraphs might bog the reader down
<Robert and Ari> It'll sure highlight the misunderstandings. I suspect you might be reaching points you need to for the reader to stay oriented.
<Jebbo> You could have the journal entries have ever-so-slightly different events; difference in viewpoint between Gorok / Wulf
<Katherine> Sounds like a fine idea to me as long as reader knows what's going on.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe a couple of pages per chapter, maybe shorter if something really interesting happens and he's too excited to write more than "Wow."
<Crista> Ack! I'm sorry, all, but I have to go. Minor crisis.
<@SLViehl> Bye Crista
<Robert and Ari> Bye Crista, luck with it!
<Erik> bye crista
<Anne_Marble> Bye Crista and good luck
<Robert and Ari> I like that, especially if they are carefully labeled and dated.
<@SLViehl> What about opening with a quoted passage, you know, like some editors use a couple of lines of poetry or song lyrics
<Anne_Marble> I would probably have a header like "An entry from the journal of Wulf" if that's not too cliched.
<Anne_Marble> eek, I would have to make up a quote.
<Robert and Ari> Date and Wulf's name.
<Robert and Ari> And maybe some administrative reports from the guards for other POV as documents.
<@SLViehl> Or, what if Gorok got hold of Wulf's Journal and was reading it as the story progresses?
<Anne_Marble> I don't even know his full name yet.
<Anne_Marble> I don't want Gorok to learn everything yet.
<Robert and Ari> Then intersperse documents immediately after the scene they happened or immediately before, simultaneous.
<Robert and Ari> And label as documents, not necessarily limited to Wulf's Journal
<Anne_Marble> Instead of after the chapter then?
<Katherine> You could do either before or after. Whatever works.
<Anne_Marble> That could work. I could set them apart with some kind of typesetting trick. (Italics?)
<Robert and Ari> Maybe call it Wulf's Grimoire and leave like half a line of a spell recipe. Right after the chapter as chapter tweeners is a cool thing esp. if there's always a document after each chapter.
<@SLViehl> The danger is that the journal entry has no dialogue, no action. I'd still recommend keeping them short.
<Katherine> It could have dialogue and action, though.
<Robert and Ari> Reread Bram Stoker's "Dracula" for journal entries with impact where things happen in it. Use some of the guard stuff documents to clue readers to future conflicts.
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, if I'm not careful, it will sound like Hunt Morgan's portion of "Arslan." zzz
<Katherine> (My journal certainly does.
)
<Robert and Ari> Holly's Blog is a good example of short journal entries that have a lot of information, tiny powerful vignettes.
<Robert and Ari> So is yours sometimes, Sheila, but yours has several regular features too.
<Anne_Marble> He could certainly write things like "You wouldn't believe what that guard said to me today. He said...." (Wait, that sounds too much like an entry from a Sweet Valley high diary!)
<@SLViehl> If Wulf writes more like a scribe recording events, you can escape the "he said" thing
<Erik> crappy, brb 1 sec
<Robert and Ari> You could keep a blog for Wulf
<Anne_Marble> Hee hee
<Jebbo> Who is Wulf's journal talking to? How aware is Wulf of a potential audience when he writes the entries?
<Robert and Ari> Treat it like one. A magician's grimoire is that. Apprentices will read it. Centuries after him they need to understand it.
<Anne_Marble> I guess he would be writing for himself. Like the grimoire thingie. He might be writing these things in case he dies -- as he knows he might. He's in this prison for life and is hoping to voerturn the current system of mage government.
<Robert and Ari> Then that's your main vehicle to explain the politics that are zipping over Gorok's head. His blogs are rants.
<Anne_Marble> Ahh, good idea.
<@SLViehl> Okay, time -- any last suggestions/comments for Anne?
<Katherine> Sir Walter Raleigh. Letter for Birmingham Jail. Letters from Death Row.
<Robert and Ari> Nelson Mandela.
<Katherine> Lots of famous prison journals/letters out there.
<Anne_Marble> Actually the one Oscar Wilde wrote might be approriate in this case...
<Katherine> from Birmingham Jail, too.
<Jebbo> Also, if he is writing retrospectively, he doesn't have to follow the order of Gorok's tale
<Robert and Ari> The subplot of mage politics that does weave into the end comes up in that.
<@SLViehl> Avoid Bridget Jones.
<Anne_Marble> I dunno, the barbarian and mage eventually find each other.
<Jebbo> The key there is
eventually
<@SLViehl> Thanks to everyone -- Katherine, you're up, then we'll take a five minute break
<Anne_Marble> I will have fun writing his journal (or grimoire) entries.
<Katherine> Ummm.... can we take the break first?
<@SLViehl> Sounds good to me -- five minutes, everyone
<@SLViehl> brb, must make tea
<Robert and Ari> Scribe make coffee make new file.
<Anne_Marble> Cool idea
<@SLViehl> Blair, Scott, do you have questions for the group? I put you on the list but you can just sit in if you want.
<Blair> i'm just hanging out.. no questions from me
<@SLViehl> How's your hand, pal?
<Anne_Marble> OK, everybody, shake yoru wrists. Unless of course you're holding hot coffee or a cat.
<Robert and Ari> There. File is on the boil and I've opened a new coffee.
<Blair> its pretty good. Still a little pain if i'm carrying something, but i can type again. I'm just glad February is over.
<@SLViehl> lol Robert
<@SLViehl> Amen, Blair
<Scott> I guess I can come up with a question, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> You've got time, Scott -- also, if you want, you can pass when we get to you. BRB, kettle's whistling
<Anne_Marble> My mother sent me e-mail. Awww.
<Anne_Marble> Good grief, they put this sorbeto thing inside an actual lemon! :->
<Robert and Ari> Dstar, if that's you then you need to type your handle in the little box on top of the list of names for it to show up.
<@SLViehl> Anne's making me hungry
<Labloch> Hi all
<@SLViehl> Hey Sophie
<@SLViehl> Got a question for the group tonight?
<Robert and Ari> Hi Sophie!
<Labloch> sorry I'm late.
<Anne_Marble> Sorry, Sheila. :-> (Hey, at least I'm not eating the tartuffo instead.)
<Labloch> Nope, just hanging out.
<@SLViehl> I've got rice and chicken for after the session, Anne. Don't listen to me grumble.
<Anne_Marble> Law & Order: SVU is on. Christoper Melloni can come over for sorbeto with me any time.
<Anne_Marble> Anyone have good advice for keyboard wrist pads? My left wrist was hurting this week. It's better now, though.
<@SLViehl> Okay, last call for beverages, bathroom breaks, whatever
<Yvonne> can you add me to the list Sheila, I've got a question
<Jebbo> I have some fish pie for later . . .
<Katherine> I've got a gel pad that I like a lot.
<Labloch> I second Katherine on gel pads. They rock.
<@SLViehl> You'll be right after Katherine, Yvonne.
<Robert and Ari> My foam wrist pad's about an inch thick, Ari loves it and it saves my hands a lot of trouble.
<Katherine> Also check your chair. Make sure the arms are supporting your wrists and that you're the right height.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, good, they actually work.
I bought a squishy non-gel pad, and I'm not nuts about it. Maybe I'll bring it back.
<Anne_Marble> I'll have to figure out how to adjust the chair. I'm used to being really low.
<Jebbo> Hmm . . . I suppose I'm lucky; I've used a keyboard for about 20 years with no problems
<@SLViehl> All right, Katherine, if you're ready, you're up, Yvonne, you'll be next
<Katherine> You want your arms to be roughly level from elbow to wrist.
<Katherine> I'm up? Eeek! Let me see if I can explain this....
<Katherine> I think I've figured out my macro plot: what needs to happen by the end of the book.
<Katherine> But I
<Katherine> I'm having trouble with the micro plot: what happens next.
<Katherine> (This is the same WIP we've discussed before.)
<Labloch> the alternate history one?
<Katherine> Yeah. Venice ca. 1500,
<Katherine> with magic.
<Robert and Ari> This is where all the neat color background cool Venetian detail can help create minor problems for your characters that shove the plot forward.
<Katherine> I've got all my plot threads nicely set up, now what?
<@SLViehl> Choreography time!
<Labloch> Let your characters do some fast talking?
<@SLViehl> lol
<Robert and Ari> Ripples that reflect them? If you're going to have a plague later, give someone poor its first symptoms in background, that sort of thing?
<Erik> ugh, sorry, i'm back for now
<Jebbo> Mirror characters; mirror scenes
<Katherine> Hmmmm....
<@SLViehl> I think you've got the music and you just need the dancing now, Katherine
<@SLViehl> You know what you want to do with the story, the characters, and how the plot threads work
<@SLViehl> but you've got to put them into practice, right?
<Katherine> My protagonist has been recovering from smoke inhalation for a while now. Probably time to boot him out of sick bay.
<Labloch> Give us an example of a macro thread and let's see how we can break it down to micro threads...
<Katherine> At which point antagonist's machinations are going to become obvious.
<Anne_Marble> Heck, have one of them accidentally start a plague or some other disaster without realizing it -- perhaps a mattress maker buys horsehair from a slaughterhouse for a price that he knows is too good to be true. (Turns out the horses died of disease.)
<Anne_Marble> Have you ever read the graphic novel "Watchmen"? It's a wonderful example of plot threads with great transitions and little tidbits that turn out to be important later.
<Jebbo> I don't think I remember any previous discussions of this WIP; you'll have to help me out a bit
<Katherine> Venetian trade started to collapse about this time. Which could really upend the comfortable patronage relationships.
<Robert and Ari> Take some sympathetic dead-broke person and have MC recognize him as a once prosperous minor artisan.
<Katherine> Sorry, Jebbo. Setting is Venice, ca. 1500. Protagonist is a wild talent magician (magic not openly practiced.)
<@SLViehl> You've got the daily lives of the people in Venice to draw from for events and actions that provide momentum
<Jebbo> Give me a one sentence summary of the plot . . .
<Robert and Ari> A fight between the baker and his wife over money, each accusing the other of spending too much.
<Katherine> Antagonist is religious nut who's going to start the Inquisition 50 years early.
<Katherine> Antagonist is also assistant to a master artisan. I think he may be about to get laid off.
<Robert and Ari> Then make one of the pair annoyingly insufferably pious - and getting on the spouse over "vanities" and sins.
<@SLViehl> There are meals, meetings, deliveries, etc. that happen on a regular schedule. Also religious worship (according to your magic system)
<Katherine> In part because of repurcussions of a battle which MC's father allegedly lost.
<Robert and Ari> In hte bit players' fight, he punches her, like punch and judy - but she falls into MC or causes crash that disrupts MC
<Katherine> <thinking>
<Erik> crap.
I gotta run guys
<@SLViehl> bye Erik
<Erik> bye
sorry
<Erik> thanks for the help, again
<Robert and Ari> And one or the other bit player in the fight that interrupted, is completely innocent of what they're accused of.
<Robert and Ari> Bye Erik! Happy writing!
<Jebbo> So the conflict is between orthodoxy and radicalism? Protagonist has to be target of Inquisition
<Labloch> Katherine, are you still in the planning phase, or are you writing?
<Labloch> bye erik!
<@SLViehl> One writer I know says the middle of novels can be like the Sargasso Sea. Dead space unless something keeps happening.
<Katherine> Planning and writing happen simultaneously for me. Write some, plan some, write some more.
<Robert and Ari> The ideas of the times are in the air Katherine, one of them is on either side of the sweeping political-religious changes.
<Katherine> Right, Robert. That's the macro plot.
<Robert and Ari> Right but encapsulate it as a couple of common possibly ignorant people fighting over the ideas and you present the theme in miniature. Foreshadow the big scale with a street brawl over it.
<Anne_Marble> Is anyone the protagonist knows the same religion as the villain? You can have conflict and show many facets of the same religion, good and bad.
<Jebbo> So protagonist and antagonist would work well as mirror characters; they are identical but on different sides
<@SLViehl> Wouldn't that trickle down to the lowest levels and have some effect, Katherine, that you could use?
<Katherine> Yes, Jebbo, definitely mirrors.
<Anne_Marble> Build a Venice diorama in a shoe box.
<Robert and Ari> If common people are arguing those points on some level, then those are motions of great numbers of people if it trickles down that far.
<Jebbo> Heck, make them brothers
<Katherine> Sorry, Sheila, lost the antecedent to "that".
<@SLViehl> Jebbo has a wicked mind
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, I said spouses but it could be any pair of people who got divided by the main theme conflict against something that should be a close kinship.
<Katherine> Thought of making them brothers. Decided that was too cliche.
<@SLViehl> The sweeping changes have to affect the general population in various ways -- sword fights, tavern brawls, divorces, killings, etc.
<Robert and Ari> Not if they're arguing over what to do with thier inheritance!
<Katherine> Sheila: nodding. This was not a happy time in Venice. Vasco da Gama made the entire Med. trade obsolete.
<Anne_Marble> Some dude wrote a writing book where he suggested it actually does help to have some sort of relation between the characters in a novel. Not Maas, but some other agent type.
<Jebbo> Yup. Was bad time for Venice
<@SLViehl> The people would react in different ways, and present obstacles and interactions for your MC and support cast, Katherine
<Katherine> So I'm going to have bankruptcies, people going off to war, all that kind of stuff.
<Robert and Ari> So show a once-kind landlord shoveling someone sympathetic out onto the street.
<Katherine> Both protag and antag have been sort of locked in ivory towers. Time to boot them out. ]
<@SLViehl> I'd start small, with ripples, and build up the tension
<@SLViehl> Maybe it's hard to get a decent meal somewhere, or walk alone in the street in Chapter three. By Chapter Eight, you're courting food poisoning and open riots
<Katherine> <nodding> Need to play with it a little. But the wheels are starting to spin.
<Robert and Ari> Someone murdered over a very small amount of money or possessions...
<Jebbo> I agree. They work together, have friendly arguments about magic and theology. Lose jobs (master artists dies; workshops closes); conflicts get more serious
<Jebbo> something like that . . .
<@SLViehl> Domino effects are good too -- one person dies in a street fight. Ripples out to affect everyone in the novel in some way
<Anne_Marble> Someone stealing for the first time, someone ripping off customers for the first time (though both have always been honest)
<Katherine> Lots of suspicion about outsiders, in a city known for openness.
<Robert and Ari> Sam Delany did that so well in Dhalgren with the Rumored Rape
<Jebbo> tTheir circumstances should be similar; both out of work; find new patrons who escalte the differences
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments/suggestions for Katherine?
<Jebbo> Start writing . . . sounds like you know where it si going
<Robert and Ari> These ripple things are all echoes of the main conflict and the protag and antagonist can argue about these street incidents if they know each other well enough to.
<Robert and Ari> He's a pig. No, she deserved it, she's a vain spendthrift.
<Katherine> <lightbulb> Factional conflict turns into street riots. Protag and antag on opposite sides.
<@SLViehl> I'd check out histories of Venice during the era, see what was happening in the city, use the more interesting scandals and events for your book as action framework
<Jebbo> If it was Florence you could have the Guelfs and Ghibellines stuff going on
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all -- Yvonne, you're up
<Yvonne> Did Tolkien ever describe his orcs?
<Katherine> Street riots were a big problem in the period. No mechanism for real political debate otherwise.
<@SLViehl> Help, Tolkien fans.
<Robert and Ari> They were sallow. Their features were twisted echoes of elven
<Robert and Ari> They had iron shoes.
<Labloch> yeah, anti-elves
<Yvonne> where does he say this exactly?
<Jebbo> Hmm . . . I think so. I think he described the differences between the Uruk-Hai and "normal" orcs
<Labloch> I thought the Uruk-Hai were just in the movie
<Robert and Ari> Uruk-hai were the size of men, normal orcs closer to the size of halflings.
<Jebbo> and I think there was a bit of description around the Shelob's Lair scenes
<Katherine> No, Uruk-hai were in the book. Except they were from Mordor, not Saruman.
<Labloch> ah.Wait, what were goblins the anti-of? (were there goblins?)
<Robert and Ari> orcs are goblins.
<Scott> In The Return of the King, after Frodo and Sam make it into Mordor, there's a scene with two orcs arguing. There's some description there.
<Katherine> I think goblins are smaller than orcs.
<@SLViehl> (sitting back, admiring the answers) You guys are so cool.
<Jebbo> He described stuff in the
TWo Towers by inference. Some stuff when Merry and Pippin are being carried; some stuff from the chase
<Yvonne> hmm, maybe I'll just use the movie orc looks
<Scott> They are definitely unpleasant folks.
<Yvonne> What I remember from just reading the Two Towers, is the iron shoes, unattractive, and swarthy, which tells me nothing
<Katherine> Do you need Tolkien-esque canonical orcs? Or can you just design your own.
<Robert and Ari> Is this fan fiction or is it generic orcs? Ral Partha made absolutely gorgeous orc figurines, very realistic and recognizable as a race.
<@SLViehl> are you basing your characters on Tolkien's orcs, Yvonne? (just out of curiosity)
<Robert and Ari> Tolkein's descriptions were sketchy. His descriptions of elves were too, nothing about pointed ears or tilted eyes or anything, just 'fair'
<Jebbo> Some stuff by inference in the Scouring of the Shire -- he describes some men and then calls them orc-like
<@SLViehl> Wow, three-way mind melding
<Labloch> Well, think more: ugly, twisted, hateful, willfully ignorant, defilers, destroyers
<Anne_Marble> Some people have argued that today's fantasy authors aren't allowed to call them Orcs because it was a Tolkien term. (The term existed originally but was used to describe something else.) Otheres disagree wholeheartedly.
<Robert and Ari> TSR got past the copyright team, I think it's probably kosher to say orcs.
<Yvonne> Generic orcs are usually described as piggish, with snouts and everything, I wanted to get away from that, and go back to the source
<Robert and Ari> To the source: elves were blonde and bathed regularly, orcs are dark and sallow and don't.
<Scott> Well, for a different take on orcs, check out my "In the Dark" short story I wrote for the "Twisted Fantasy Challenge" back in January
<Anne_Marble> Just keep in mind that if you're going to call your critters Orcs, some people might rant and rave.
That doesn't stop others from doing orc stories. Stan Nicholls is writing a whole series from their POV.
<Yvonne> describing orc internal characteristics, ignorant defilers, etc. tells me nothing about what they look like
<Jebbo> elves= tall; orcs= bandy-legged
<Robert and Ari> Sharp features come into a few descriptions, squinty eyes.
<Robert and Ari> Yes! Bandy-legged was a frequent descriptive phrase.
<Katherine> The orcs in the movie didn't look "wrong," so you could use them if you need an image.
<Labloch> elves: tall, fair, beautiful, graceful. Orcs: squat, dark/sallow, ugly, not-graceful
<Anne_Marble> Why can't the ignorant defilers look beautiful and fair while the noble races look ugly?
<Labloch> that's the impression I got from Tolkien, anyway
<Robert and Ari> They could also run, fast, while bent over double. So they're often done up long-armed and apish.
<Jebbo> elves= well dressed; orcs= badly dressed, even their armour was crap
<Labloch> LOL about the bathing thing
<Robert and Ari> Anne - I'm doing an entire fantasy novel about that. <G>
<Yvonne> I'll just tweak the ones from the movie.
<Katherine> There are also different breeds of orcs. Some are small and scramble around, some are almost the size of trolls (or possibly cross-bred with trolls).
<Jebbo> In summary, I'd say, yes, Tolkien did describe Orcs
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments/suggestions for Yvonne?
<Yvonne> really? I'd say no, he just said they were the opposite of elves, which doesn't describe them physically at all
<Jebbo> I think there is also some description in
The Silmarillion
<Robert and Ari> Check out the variousminiatures companies. There's a common artistic convention of how orcs look.
<Yvonne> I am 'not' going to wade through the Silmarillion.
<Anne_Marble> (Wondering if Wulf should be an elf instead of a human mage. Then imagining Tolkien turning over in his grave at the idea of elf BDSM.)
<Scott> Or some of the Tolkien inspired artwork.
<Jebbo> Yvonne> we all know what they look like, so he does describe them; just not explicitly
<@SLViehl> bad girl, Anne
<Yvonne> I don't know what they look like.
<Katherine> Anne: LOL! Have you read the LOTR Very Secret Diaries?
<Robert and Ari> pervy hobbit fanciers. <G>
<Anne_Marble> I read about them in an sff.net newsgroup, I'll have to look.
<Jebbo> Yvonne> you don't? wow . . . I always had a very clear picture
<Anne_Marble> Hey, Frodo is
hot.
<@SLViehl> You might want to post a discussion topic on this, Yvonne, and get some more opinions from the community at large -- they might have other reference sources, too
<Katherine>
http://diaries.diagon.org/
<Yvonne> maybe Sheila
<@SLViehl> Okay, Scott, you're up, then Callendra, if you've got a question for us.
<Robert and Ari> Purr!
<Scott> Okay, let's see if I can cut and paste this...
<Scott> I'm having trouble with making detailed plot outlines. I've successfully written five complete novels with just very sketchy outlines. But my published mentor is telling me that I'm going to have to do more detailed ones to satisfy a publisher. But when I try to write one, I get caught up on trying to figure out all the plot events in advance and I get stalled and end up writing nothing. Not sure
<Callendra> Sheila...I haven't got one yet. If I don't have a question by the time its my turn, I'll just pass.
<Scott> what to do.
<@SLViehl> Can you write one after the book is written, Scott?
<Anne_Marble> The outlines you give to publishers don't have to be the ones you write before writing the novel.
<@SLViehl> Or do you have to put it together beforehand?
<Robert and Ari> My weird solution to that is that I may wind up writing the books first and then presentable synopses, cause my notes will never be intelligible.
<Labloch> ditto Sheila's comment
<Blair> can you do a sketchy one to get the basics, then go back and add little details?
<Scott> Well, he was telling me for after I'm published and I start selling books before they are actually written.
<Katherine> You only need outlines if you want to get paid in advance. If you don't mind writing everything on spec, don't worry about it.
<Jebbo> If you can't write the book first, then start with a sentence, expand to a paragrahp, then do the same for each sentence in the new paragraph
<Jebbo> iterate until synopsis is long enough
<@SLViehl> You do have to do that when you turn pro, and sell a multi-book contract
<Robert and Ari> Holly said that what she does is presentable outlines, then turns in books better than the one outlined and that keeps editors happy.
<@SLViehl> How many outlines and proposals and stuff have you read from other authors, Scott?
<Scott> Well, none
<@SLViehl> Have I posted a sample synopsis or proposal yet, you guys, that I've done? I can't remember
<Robert and Ari> Not a proposal, though you posted wonderful hook lines and discussed presentation.
<@SLViehl> I just recall how intimidated I was about writing my first proposal. Yikes.
<Labloch> nope, but great query hooks.
<Blair> there was the filled in template for SD too...
<Robert and Ari> Please? That's the next stage I have to do for Strigler's to sell it - synopsis and proposal and queries with packet ready to send if any nibbles.
<@SLViehl> I think it helps to read something that's been accepted, just for wording. What do you think, Scott ? Would some examples help?
<Scott> Absolutely.
<@SLViehl> I can harass Holly for some of hers.
<@SLViehl> What genre are you writing in?
<Robert and Ari> She posted one that her agent rejected on a thread on main discussion.
<Scott> Mostly SF, but some fantasy, too.
<@SLViehl> Then I'm your girl
<Katherine> Can you ask your mentor to look at one of his?
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Katherine -- get lots of examples from other people
<Scott> Two of my novels are in the hands of an editor, but I sort of snuck in the back door with those and never worte any proposals or outines or anything.
<Scott> That's a good idea, Katherine.
<@SLViehl> Once you do a couple of them, they get easier
<@SLViehl> I used to hate synopses. I mean HATE
<@SLViehl> Now I zip right through them.
<Robert and Ari> You give me hope!
<Katherine> You might start with the books you've already written before you try doing one for a book that doesn't exist yet.
<Labloch> I still cower before the thought of synopses and proposals. <g>
<JoelA> hi
<@SLViehl> It's all mindset.
<JoelA> there are still people in here?
<Callendra> heya Joel
<@SLViehl> Hey Joel
<Jebbo> Heck, I just want to finish something longer than 6K words <g>
<Anne_Marble> It's not even 11, Joel!
<Blair> nope Joel... nobody here <G>
<Labloch> hi joel
<Callendra> ditto Jebbo
<JoelA> I thought you were all finished nearly an hour ago?
<@SLViehl> Have you ever written cover copy, Scott? A synopsis is just really, really long cover copy
<JoelA> LOL, blair
<Anne_Marble> We started at nine.
<Robert and Ari> Hi Joel. You're just imagining us. We're hallucinations. We're all Sheila's other characters that got loose.
<Scott> No, I haven't.
<JoelA> Again, Robert?
<@SLViehl> No, it's a two hour session, Joel, lol
<Jebbo> I do not exist
<Yvonne> I do
<JoelA> Ah! Forgot, Ms Viehl
<JoelA> Put me on the list
<Blair> oooo can i be the bad guy??? i have a maniacal laugh muahahahahahahaha...
<@SLViehl> (smacking Joel for calling me Ms. Viehl again)
<@SLViehl> And the scars to prove it, eh, Blair?
<Callendra> no! I want to be the bad guy...er gal
<JoelA> ooohhh! Sheila loves me
<Katherine> I think he likes getting smacked, Sheila. Uh oh.
<@SLViehl> Hey, I love everybody
<Yvonne> don't say that out loud
<JoelA> LOL, sheila
<@SLViehl> Okay, time -- any last comments, suggestions for Scott?
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, last time some weirdo said that they hung him on a cross...
<Scott> Thanks, everyone
<Callendra> what time is it EST now anyway?
<@SLViehl> 10:56
<Anne_Marble> Sheila, have you seen www.bookshare.org? It was being discussed (i.e. turn apart) on sff.net. This company "purports" to make copyrighted books available for the disabled -- without paying the copyright holder. (Yet the disabled still have to pay to subscribe.)
<JoelA> almost 11 pm
<@SLViehl> We should kill them, Anne. Lol
<Anne_Marble> It was getting ripped up in sff.publishing.electronic.
<Labloch> Anne, I think it's to pay for the costs of providing the texts.
<@SLViehl> (now the question is, do I mean the sff.net people, or the disabled? Hmmm....)
<Labloch> (of the server/webpage, that is)
<Scott> I was about to ask...
<JoelA> Sheila!
<@SLViehl> the sff.net bunch aren't happy unless they're ripping
something to pieces
<Robert and Ari> Meow! You lose scribe with that! <climbs on back of chair balancing with ari>
<Labloch> LOL Sheila
<@SLViehl> Anyway, Joel, what's your question?
<Callendra> Sheila, I'm gonna pass. I haven't got a question this time.
<@SLViehl> just kidding, Robert. I'm a gimp too, remember
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, but they're not paying the _authors_, and the texts are scanned by volunteers!
<@SLViehl> Sorry, Cal, forgot about you. Thanks for reminding me.
<Robert and Ari> Just clowning, physical comedy's so much easier when it's just in words! <G>
<Callendra> tis ok. First time I've been to writers think tank, I wanted to get an idea of the type of questions that are asked.
<@SLViehl> It's basically anything goes.
<Anne_Marble> "What do mages wear under their robes?" ;->
<Jebbo> Armour
<Callendra> <looks at Joel> so, whats yer question? lol
<Anne_Marble> (See, what did Sheila tell you?)
<Blair> thier pride?
<Robert and Ari> Start up a competing real charity querying authors for donating to disabled - and charity gives out the books free to real disabled?
<Labloch> (Bookshare's "about" section seemed to explain it pretty legitimately to me. )
<Katherine> Barbarian repellant?
<cherylp> Anne, the answer is "try and find out"
<JoelA> May I ask a question? Or are we out of time?
<@SLViehl> Go ahead Joel
<Anne_Marble> Go ahead, Joel.
<JoelA> thanks. give me a minute to write it up. But to start things off....
<@SLViehl> there's an echo in here <g>
<JoelA> how many antagonists can one hurl at the MC to make his/her life difficult?
<Callendra> there's an echo in here
<Callendra> j/k
<JoelA> there's an echo...STOP IT
<@SLViehl> One to five, with five being the high end
<@SLViehl> imho
<Jebbo> but lots of henchmen
<@SLViehl> I like three. Three villains of varying degrees
<Callendra> or soldiers. or bounty hunters...can have lots of those.
<Jebbo> five seems very high unless they are acting in concert
<cherylp> Who called 'em spearcarriers?
<@SLViehl> Blair, you're scaring people. Stop it.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Robert and Ari> That's spooky, Sheila.
<Robert and Ari> That's how many layers my good guys had to dig through to find Lester...
<@SLViehl> It's the good little Catholic girl in me.
<JoelA> One to five, Sheila? Why those figures?
<@SLViehl> The Trinity and all that was hammered into my head for twelve years
<Anne_Marble> Three is a cool number, a very powerful one in many stories. Easier to handle than four or five, more dangerous than one or two.
<@SLViehl> Any more than five is going to lessen the impact, I think.
<Katherine> Three is the number that thou shalt count, and the number of thy counting shall be three.
<Callendra> I've got two in book one, but one of them is simply misled and he reforms
<cherylp> Blair, I see your psycho and raise you one berserk.
<JoelA> Here's why (my WIP): I have several antagonists after the MC. One is a religious zeolot who wants him to release the gods to change the world to her liking. Another wants him to attract the emperer so she can kill him. Another wants to use the MC to commit genocide. Another wants revenage on the MC who killed two schools of mages. The last wants to inherit the MC's lands.
<Katherine> <sorry. Getting late....>
<JoelA> night, katherine
<Jebbo> Well, zero doesn't work and editors can't count beyond five without taking off their socks <big grin>
<JoelA> too many antagonists?
<@SLViehl> night Katherine
<JoelA> oh, jebbo. bad
<cherylp> bye, Katherine
<Katherine> I'm not leaving. Just explaining the Python quote.
<JoelA> oh! wb, katherine
<labloch2> anywhere you could combine them for greater impact, Joel?
<Robert and Ari> I notice the same pattern - odd numbers. Three or five. Not two or four. Tiebreaker ultimate villain needed.
<JoelA> hmmm. good point, labloch.
<@SLViehl> Some of those villains sound more like supporting characters, Joel. A villain (to me) should be pivotal in the story
<Callendra> Joel...if it were me (and it's not) I would write more then one book and let different villians have more to do with the different books.
<@SLViehl> good idea, Callendra
<JoelA> the first one, sheila. she knows the truth
<Jebbo> I think more than three is difficult unless you are going for a long series
<JoelA> hmmm. maybe take the revenage characters as minor plots...
<@SLViehl> You can start out support villains in one book and progress them to central villains in subsequent novels
<Robert and Ari> That and if they start allying, villain alliances are generally shaky. More than five is going to get to be a pain or maek them all more sympathetic.
<Callendra> Joel...or as Maass says...combine some of them to make them more complex.
<JoelA> true, sheila and call.
<@SLViehl> Holly does multiple villains really well. Secret Texts comes to mind
<@SLViehl> Remember all the bad guys she was juggling in those books?
<JoelA> true, sheila. i'm finishing up Courage now. Luecras is cruel
<Callendra> yeah...Luercas, Crispin, Anwyn, Andrew, and the rest of the Dragons.
<@SLViehl> With Holly, she shifts focus and does this villain spotlight thing that's really cool.
<JoelA> with Luecras and Crispin the biggies
<JoelA> is Joseph the main one in your StarDoc novel, sheila?
<@SLViehl> The really awful ones end up being the central villains but you don't know that right off the start, in her books
<Callendra> in fact...even Danya was a bit of a villian herself...though I understood her more. And Ruu-eeth
<@SLViehl> Joseph is the main, number one bad guy in all my books -- whether he's there or not.
<JoelA> I thought for the longest time Ry was the major one, Sheila, Call.
<Jebbo> I think, ultimately, you need
one antagonist but can have multiple bad guys
<Callendra> Ry is great! I love that character
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Joel?
<JoelA> I'll retake a look at my antagonists while I'm in Las Vegas this weekend.
<JoelA> thanks, y'all!
<Anne_Marble> Play a quarter for me.
<@SLViehl> And thanks to everyone for another great session
<JoelA> Don't gamble, Anne
<Callendra> I'm still wondering if Verath is enough to be main villian in all three books.
<Jebbo> Make your villains smart. Nothing worse than stupid bad guys . "why didn't he do <XXX>?"
<JoelA> thanks again , sheila
<Blair> thx Sheila...
<JoelA> definitely, jebbo
<Callendra> I agree Jebbo
<Katherine> Thanks!
<Anne_Marble> Go to a cheap buffet for me.
<JoelA> LOL, anne
<JoelA> I'm dieting...again
<labloch2> thank you, Sheila
<Robert and Ari> Tthanks, Sheila! It was great! I'll trust my style and not imitate rich guys' mistakes.
<Anne_Marble> (Though some buffets are the equivalent of a gamble!)
<cherylp> Thanks, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> I'm going to try to make a transcript now -- good night all, and thanks again!