Writer's Think Tank #6 -- 03/08/02

<@SLViehl> Welcome to the Writer's Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<Anne_Marble> Tray. No tray. Tray. No tray. (Brain envisions splashing sound and crab soup spilling on book bag.) Tray.
<Blair> you know... its because of these doodles that i'm seriously considering going to night school..
<@SLViehl> Welcome Scott, hey Sarah
<RobertAndAri> Soup is not finger food. Me know this.
<Scott> Evening everyone!
<Jonathan> HI Scott!
<Sarah> Hi!
<@SLViehl> Is there anyone who does not have a question for the group tonight?
<RobertAndAri> Hi Scott!
<Anne_Marble> Howdy Scott.
<Sarah> Me
<Scott> Hi Jonathan! Found this place, eh?
<Yvonne> I don't
<Kaelle> I don't
<Andi> I don't, Sheila.
<Jonathan> Not as yet.
<Anne_Marble> I've got a teensy one.
<Scott> I don't either.
<RobertAndAri> I have a weird one already phrased. >^..^<
<Sarah> Well, I do have a problem, but I'm not sure if it's the kind of thing that can be helped....
<Joel_A> Hi, y'all!
<Joel_A> What's news?
<Andi> Heya, Joel!
<Yvonne> hi joel
<Jonathan> Hi Joel!
<Blair> no question for me...
<Kaelle> Hi everyone who came in after I did!
<Suzanne (ZazuToo)> Hello and good evening
<Gayle> evening suzanne
<Kay House> I don't have a question, I jsut came to play.
<RobertAndAri> Hi everyone I missed!
<@SLViehl> Welcome Joel & Suzanne
<Joel_A> Ms Viehl, how did you know I had a question?
<@SLViehl> Did I miss anyone who has a question for the group? Joel, you always have a question.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Joel_A> LOL, Sheila. Too true
<Sarah> I guess I'm a maybe, if there's time at the end.
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get this show on the road.
<Kay House> OH, I am SO glad, Andi!!! That was the RU
<Joel_A> where's your name on the list, sheila?
<@SLViehl> No question from me tonight, I'm brain dead
<Kay House> Iam so glad andi, that was the right thing for them to do, ybut you couldn't count on it until they said
<Kay House> sorry Sheila, I'll be good now
<@SLViehl> No problem Kay
<Joel_A> understood, sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Sheila, you sound like half the drivers I encounted tonight.
<@SLViehl> The way this works (for you newbies) is, each person on the roster presents a writing-related question to the group
<@SLViehl> Lol Anne
<RobertAndAri> Had trouble downloading Anne? Or getting home?
<@SLViehl> The group will offer solutions and suggestions, while I keep an eye on the time.
<Kaelle> James! Hi!
<@SLViehl> When I call "time" we move on to the next name on the list
<@SLViehl> James!
<James> Hi all -- very long time no see! I'm glad to be back
<@SLViehl> This calls for a group hug.
<RobertAndAri> Hi James!
<Anne_Marble> Hi James!!!
<Kaelle> <hug>
<@SLViehl> {hugging James}
<Andi> Heya James!
<Gayle> ((((james)))
<Sarah> Hey James! <hug>
<Jehane> Hey James! Getting lonely down here!
<James> I know, Jehane, Australia can be a burden to bear, alone
<Joel_A> (hi-five James)
<James> (muffled from all the hugs) but I may vanish for a variety of silly system reasons at any given time, so don't be alarmed.
<@SLViehl> James, I'm going to give you the #5 spot on the roster. You have to ask a question tonight or we'll gang up on you.
<James> I guess I can manage one, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Okay, Robert, you're up, Gayle you're next.
<RobertAndAri> I have a transmission problem with my brain. I have trouble jumping from writing to rewriting and getting anything going if I get interrupted severely by real life worries.
<RobertAndAri> What I want is to do some writing now that I rewrote Strigler's Succubus and I'm having trouble getting started again.
<Scott> Gee, I get some of my best ideas while trying to ignore real life worries.
<@SLViehl> You need an epiphany, Robert
<Sarah> I use music a lot when I write, and certain pieces go with certain things that I'm working on. After a while, I end up associating whatever I'm writing with that piece of music, and putting it on kicks me into writing mode for that particular work.
<Anne_Marble> Do something silly that involves writing, like creating a word puzzle or bad poem. Or just "automatic writing."
<Yvonne> can you get those at the drugstore, Sheila?
<Suzanne (ZazuToo)> You might try writing the 'real life' stuff. I usually get bored with that pretty quick and a new story is a good refuge.
<@SLViehl> Wish we could, Yvonne
<Kaelle> Do you have a file of ideas to jump start on - you know, by going over those ideas until something jumps out at you.
<@SLViehl> Is there some burning new idea you haven't had time to play with, Robert?
<Sarah> There's a track on the CD I'm using for Elysium that actually wrote a scene in my head for me, which ended up being the pivotal transition scene between parts 2 and 3 of the book. That scene would NOT exist but for that song.
<Andi> I had an epiphany once, but I think I lost it in a move.
<RobertAndAri> I have an Ideafile that I put all the new ideas in and none of them is grabbing me right now.
<@SLViehl> Music always helps me too, Sarah
<Andi> Music can help me. I find different works require different musics. (shrug)
<@SLViehl> Then you need to find a new one -- something different that you haven't played with before, maybe
<Suzanne (ZazuToo)> What about reading for awhile?
<RobertAndAri> Though that's a thought, I could try just randomly grabbing several of them and try to use them all in the same thing, see if smooshing makes them more complex.
<Anne_Marble> Put them on index cards and shuffle them into new combinations.
<James> That's a tough one, because it's such a subjective problem, and everyone's solution tends to be different. Lately, I've found not writing to work in that situation. I explicitly stop for a set period (two weeks), by the end I'm often ready to go.
<Anne_Marble> Listen to Glenn Gould.
<@SLViehl> Good point, James -- you do write an awful lot, Robert, and you don't give yourself many breaks.
<Jehane> Do something non-writing related for a while; maybe you just need a break to recharge.
<Andi> You were drawing yesterday, Robert. Did that relax you any?
<Jehane> (must type faster)
<Sarah> When I hit a wall I decided I was going to start rewriting fairy tailes, and I'm still on that kick (been almost a year now).
<Andi> Maybe you just need to tap into a different well of creativity for a bit.
<Jonathan> Can you recall what is was about your last story idea that grabbed you? Obviously that* worked.
<RobertAndAri> Um, no, it left me frustrated without good fiction to jump into.
<Kaelle> I find that craft work usually gets something going in my brain while my hands are occupied.
<@SLViehl> How about working on your art?
<James> But it's very important not to angst about it -- no "Oh god, I should be writing now, I should, I know I should!"
<@SLViehl> Yeah, don't blackmail yourself with writer guilt
<Andi> Guilt is very unhelpful--good point, James.
<RobertAndAri> A lot of it is that the current rewrite, Blood Junkie, was written at a crisis point in my life and getting dragged back to real life is depressingly reminding me of the circumstances I wrote it.
<Sarah> I actually used my writer's block to help me write Jory's Song.
<@SLViehl> I paint terrible watercolors, but I like the process of painting. It's like sewing, it's almost mindless.
<Scott> Yeah, obsessing about it just makes you choke more.
<Anne_Marble> Read something outside your usual genres. If you must write, try something you know you won't use later, like an opening chapter from a nurse romance. ;->
<Andi> Crocheting does that for me, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> You probably know all about meditation too, Robert
<RobertAndAri> It's closer to my wanting to write something that would engage me that thoroughly in a way that the art or crafts or rewriting wouldn't.
<Kay House> IN julia cameron's book, the artist's way, she recommends starting each day with "morning pages" to get teh day to day ick out of your head and on the paper. 3 pages of longhand. I know some writers who swear by it.
<Sarah> I couldn't find any new ideas, so I passed that frustration on to the MC, and that was the launching point it turned out I needed.
<James> Ah, I was just about to suggest meditation!
<James> Before and after you work on Blood Junkie -- eventually you'll reassociate it with the sense of meditative peace rather than pain.
<RobertAndAri> Meditating on why I'm annoyed at all the mortals who made me stay awake during the day all week being in their boring world.
<@SLViehl> I use my journals the same way, Kay -- start every morning with a handwritten entry
<@SLViehl> Disconnecting from the worries of life is important, too.
<Andi> It's necessary. It's the challenge I'm facing again. (s)
<@SLViehl> Life will take over and stomp your writing if you let it.
<Andi> I allow myself 24 hrs to wallow in Real Life, then I have to get my butt back into the chair--but that's not what you're talking about, Robert.
<@SLViehl> Music might help you get into the zone again, Robert
<RobertAndAri> I would like to trust myself to go back to the BLood Junkie rewrite if I set that down and just drop that whole project (which is like rechewed gum right now)
<Andi> Try something you usually don't listen to while writing. Break out of the routine a little.
<Jonathan> You can always write thinly disguised versions of the peopple that infuriate you in daily life, then kill them off or just mock them.
<RobertAndAri> and just get a starting point that has me hooked and a book I haven't read before. Oh yeah.
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Jonathon
<Gayle> maybe that's what you need to do then...is put it down for a little longer until it can't affect you that way again
<Jonathan> Worked for me when my company was being taken over.
<James> Exercise vigorously before writing -- get the endorphins pumping to drown out the bad feelings, then hit the keyboard still on the high?
<@SLViehl> It really sounds like you need fresh and new right now, Robert, versus doing a rewrite
<Kay House> Yeah, Robert. What Sheila said.
<RobertAndAri> Very, since that's how Blood Junkie got written. Hm. Maybe I'm just not quite ready for that rewrite and should write something new that would be easier to rewrite. Yeah. That's what I want and I want to just do it without worrying about it, have fun like when I did Strigler's.
<@SLViehl> Write Ari's secret history in a short story
<James> One story for each of nine lives
<Kay House> What did he do in his last nine lives?
<RobertAndAri> hehehe... or take the icky flashbacks about the horrible stuff that's coming up and do THAT to an MC.
<James> Snap, Kay
<Kay House> right, James!
<RobertAndAri> Ari's too cute and sweet for me to let my dark side out doing his story right now. That's more for when life's not crunching.
<@SLViehl> When I get like that, I write something where I can kill a lot of people. Always cheers me up.
<Jehane> Write about Ari's double life (or multiple lives?) as well, whatever...
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<RobertAndAri> Yeah. That's what's starting to appeal to me. A justified and rather violent MC...
<Kay House> Rambo. Anita Blake.
<James> Endure -- it always passes, always.
<@SLViehl> Mine would be to find something to channel the frustration -- and inspire and renew your passion.
<RobertAndAri> I think killing lots of people is the answer! It's something I haven't done lately and my heroes tend to be rather peaceful circular style fighter types so why not a linear aggressive NASTY good guy versus Worse Villains.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe you need a copy of Doom, Robert. ;->
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to everyone (gave me some good ideas, too, I'm bushed) -- Gayle, you're up, Anne, you're next
<Jenny> (Geez, there's a nice first line to hear as I walk into something. "Killing lots of people is the answer." <G>)
<Jonathan> Less Aikikai, more Yoshinkai?
<@SLViehl> Hey Jenny, lol
<RobertAndAri> I have Diablo but this is gonna be great! Thanks everyone! I have my epiphany! Bloodshed!
<Kay House> brb checking quiche
<Jenny> Hi everyone.
<James> Hi Jenny!
<Jonathan> Hi Jenny!
<Kaelle> Hi Jenny, lol
<Anne_Marble> Hello
<RobertAndAri> Hi Jenny!
<Scott> Hi Jenny!
<@SLViehl> Jenny, have you got a question for the group tonight?
<Andi> Heya, Jenny!
<Joel_A> Hi, Jenny
<Jenny> Yes, a shortish one--I think.
<@SLViehl> Whenever you're ready, Gayle
<Gayle> I m wondering if I should put a fact into my current work (takes place before Conflict ) when the pay off won t be for a couple of stories down the road. Should I let the readers in on the secret now or should I let them discover it when the main character (and the majority of her family) finds out.I m wondering if I should put a fact into my current work (takes place before Conflict ) when the
<Gayle> sorry about the repeat..I'll do better next time
<James> Sorry, Gayle, one repeat and you're out
<Jonathan> A good illustration of why not to put the info early.
<Andi> What creates the most tension in the story?
<@SLViehl> That's a running thread, and those are vital in the story. Does it relate to the theme that ties the stories together?
<RobertAndAri> To me if the clue would sound like nice local detail and not be that noticeable as that, or serves a purpose early on and then sets up reader for 'oboy' later then that's a time to put it in.
<Jehane> Can it be slipped in unobtrusively?
<Andi> Telling the reader before the characters know, or not?
<RobertAndAri> What she said, running thread. A neat way to do it is if you can break it up and scatter the bits to make it harder for reader to spot the pattern and then they go "Wow" when they do.
<Scott> Less is usually more in these cases, but not always.
<@SLViehl> Every mystery doesn't have to be explained, as long as it's not obvious you're stalling the reader
<Kay House> what kind of story is it?
<Gayle> it's the fact that while the mc was raised to believe someone was her grandmother in reality she was the mc older sister...a very power hungry older sister
<Gayle> science fiction/fantasy
<RobertAndAri> How about rumoring it or hinting at it and leaving reader unsure of the truth?
<@SLViehl> That's an interesting revelation
<Kaelle> ditto Robert
<James> As a reader, I love it to death when something unnoticed in an earlier book/chapter pays off suddenly, painfully and big time. So I lean towards setting it up early, paying off late.
<Scott> Heavens, sounds like a kid in my wife's class at school.
<Gayle> yeah andi telling the readers before the characters know
<Anne_Marble> Hitchcock often let the audience in on the secrets . His famous example of shock versus surprise involves revealing info to create suspense.
<Kay House> how are you working the TIME on that twist?
<Jonathan> Is it just the MC who's fooled, or everyone around?
<@SLViehl> Is the story in the POV of your MC, first person?
<Jehane> have another character make a comment, forgetting the charade
<RobertAndAri> Oh yeah. Inconsistencies from whoever does know is scattering it in background.
<James> With that particular revelation, you can actually spend the entire first novel setting up events, comments, actions, that transform explosively when the altered relationship is revealed.
<Kay House> For a really weird thing, I think background is essential to your credibility as someone who does not do god in hte machine things
<Andi> Boy, James, I'm agreeing with you a lot tonight!
<Gayle> there are only a handful of people who survive that know the truth...the people she calls parents, the council chair, and her instructor at the academy
<James> Agreeing with me is generally a worrying thing, Andi
<RobertAndAri> They should all slip up occasionally in vague, non obvious ways... at the very least be hiding something.
<@SLViehl> Setting up the grandmother/sister in the first story as an evil, power hungry character is enough to define her for the reader. What would be cool is to see that definition change radically without the reader expecting it.
<@SLViehl> And I'd do it in another story -- let the reader feel something is not quite right, but don't make the revelation a pivotal point in the first story.
<Jonathan> If the POV is omni, and only a few people know, then perhaps that reader should -- if one of those POVs know, then the reader really should.
<Gayle> it wasn't a pivotal point just sort of in passing....an entry in the council chairs sealed record book
<@SLViehl> I agree, Jonathon, if it's a pivotal plot point.
<RobertAndAri> Then an obvious clue is someone rapidly hiding that record book when at risk of her finding it.
<Jonathan> True -- the reader will not know everything a POV character knows. It nly seems false if it was a vital fact they'd think about frequently.
<Gayle> It doesn't become pivotal until the story after 'conflict'
<Gayle> which is only in the idea stage...right now I'm on a book in front of 'conflict'
<RobertAndAri> If you show the reader where to look for the clue, Observant Reader will pay attention to anything that has to do with sealed records.
<@SLViehl> You don't want your support cast walking around in the first story muttering, "If only she knew her grandmother was really . . . you know."
<@SLViehl> Motive is a great red herring
<Gayle> they don't...
<@SLViehl> Your reader thinks your evil character is doing what she does for one reason
<RobertAndAri> But a "will you shut up, the (evil one) is coming?" would be blown off as something else!
<@SLViehl> and then you yank the rug out from under them with the revelation in another story
<Anne_Marble> You might want to read books (or watch movies) where evil characters are cleverly disguised for the whole story. Like The Usual Suspects.
<Gayle> simply because everyone knows what happen to another younger sister...
<@SLViehl> Your MC is persecuted by this character, Gayle?
<Gayle> because she is over a hundred years younger and a child she is vunerable to harm which her 'grandmother' would willingly do if she knew the girl was her younger sister and legally entitled to the family seat
<Gayle> in the council
<@SLViehl> Aha
<@SLViehl> Welcome Jim, Sophie
<Jim> Hi... :}
<Labloch> Hi everyone
<Kaelle> Hi Jim, Sophie!
<Jehane> so the "grandmother" doesn't know either!?
<RobertAndAri> That's a way to set up whoever's concealing the record to PROTECT her as a red herring possible nasty for tampering with records.
<Gayle> definitely not!!
<@SLViehl> This is a double-sided revelation.
<Jenny> Hi Jim, hi Sophie.
<Joel_A> Hi, Jim, Sophie!
<RobertAndAri> Hi Jim, Sophie!
<Joel_A> Is Sophie Laboch?
<Anne_Marble> Could there be another character the MC thinks is evil who is really on her side but forced to hide her affiliation?
<@SLViehl> I'd work it from both sides, Gayle. You've got plenty of running thread room if neither character knows the other is her sister
<Jehane> as a granddaughter, why isn't she also entitled to the family seat?
<@SLViehl> Yes, Joel
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions or comments for Gayle?
<Gayle> because it's legally suppose to go to the youngest daughter...that's why her 'mother' not only put it in her will but also inducted the girl before she left the planet
<Jonathan> Interesting, Robert -- so the MC could furiously dig to 'unmask this concealment' only to shoot herself in the foot and get into far more danger?
<Joel_A> Thanks, Sheila
<RobertAndAri> It sounds like you need to foreshadow it even if you conceal it, and that might be teh solution.
<Gayle> thank you...that's what I was wondering
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some great ideas. Anne, you're up, James, you're next
<Anne_Marble> OK. This is a medical question more than a plotting one. Gorok got scratched and bitten when rescuing the snowcat (sorta like a bobcat). The wounds are near a very personal area, so he doesn't tell Wulf (who's on duty as the healer) about them. I've read symptoms on sites, but most say "Go to the doctor." Well, he won't. So the next day, he will see the signs on infection (red lines etc.) and tr
<Anne_Marble> try to treat it with herbs. But what next? Could he get tetanus and then have to rely on a magical cure?
<Jonathan> Does the world have tetanus?
<Labloch> gangrene!
<Scott> Rabies!
<Labloch> Isn't there also a Cat Scratch Fever?
<RobertAndAri> On the guy's butt? Doesn't work too well. Rabies seems too permanent.
<@SLViehl> Cauterization was standard treatment in the pre-antiobiotic era
<Jehane> ouch!
<Labloch> (never mind Tara K Harper's book of the same name)
<Anne_Marble> I mentioned that 'cause my coworker just got her Ph.D. in studies on tetanus...
<@SLViehl> Yes, there is a specific fever you get from being scratched by felines
<RobertAndAri> So was lancing infections with a heated tool, sharp and nasty.
<Anne_Marble> I don't want rabies because then the snowcat would die unless cured in time.
<Andi> They have this stuff on their claws in order to paralyse their prey.
<Labloch> also boiling hot cloths could help clean the wound
<Anne_Marble> Wulf was able to heal the snowcat through his powers. So he could do the same with Gorok. But pride is in the way.
<@SLViehl> Tetanus is caused by bacteria the animals pick up from the soil and feces
<RobertAndAri> And some herbs are antibiotics. My herbal has a bunch of things listed as antibiotics.
<@SLViehl> If it's tetanus, he needs either an antitoxin injection, or some serious magic
<Anne_Marble> Tetanus probably takes too long. And I remember cat scratch fever taking a while to start.
<Yvonne> how sick do you want him to get?
<Scott> Is the character's reluctance to get help just embarassment or is there another reason?
<RobertAndAri> A spell with sympathetic magic might require scraping kitty's claws to prepare the spell...
<Anne_Marble> Semi-conscious would be nice. In pain...
<Jonathan> Eeven the red lines will take a while -- 2 days, maybe?
<Suzanne (ZazuToo)> How sick do you want him to get before . .
<Anne_Marble> In the first chapter, Gorok raped Wulf, the healer. Despite that they are still drawn to each other...
<@SLViehl> Cat scratch fever takes three to ten days
<RobertAndAri> Cats can regrow their claws if they're clipped for a spell component but that would mkae it a little dangerous for the mage doing the spell...
<Joel_A> Anne, here are some stages for the "scratch" if left untreated:
<Jonathan> Maybe the infection's not from the snowcat; he was carrying a superficial social disease, and the claws dargged it into the wounds. Now that's embarassing to treat.
<Joel_A> Scratches are red and tender, then possible purulent discharge to enlarged local lymph nodes, then possible blood poisoning. Takes around a couple of days.
<Anne_Marble> But then Wulf would hae it, too!
<Jonathan> Exactly.
<@SLViehl> Cat scratch fever won't kill him, Anne. Tetanus or a bacterial infected wound will
<RobertAndAri> Wulf would have the problem of getting the cat to sit still for clipping if cat scratch fever requires clawtips for the magical cure.
<RobertAndAri> And there are plenty of herbs that fight blood poisoning or strengthen blood.
<Joel_A> The possibility of tetanus from a scratch is pretty low.
<@SLViehl> How about hair of the cat that clawed you?
<Labloch> Or blood?
<Anne_Marble> And Wulf would get stuck feeding the cat and the kitten while Gorok recovered.
<@SLViehl> You were looking for a wounded animal for Gorok to care for, right? How about the cat?
<Joel_A> Remember the blood poisoning can lead to septic shock and death.
<RobertAndAri> That's why I was thinking clip the claws for the spell - and it also means that the cat can't go back to the wild till her claws grow back.
<Anne_Marble> The cat is already better. (Maybe I cheated there. <g>)
<RobertAndAri> Touch and go but curable sounds good.
<@SLViehl> It's a good story tool, though -- the cat hurts Gorok, Wulf makes the cure (I'm assuming) and Gorok has to care for the cat after he's back on his feet
<Anne_Marble> But the scene came out so well. Wulf healed the cat -- and the spell he used reminded Gorok of the spell he used to enter his mind.
<Anne_Marble> Especially if the cat decides not to leave.
<RobertAndAri> That's great.
<Anne_Marble> (It was a... previously owned snowcat. So it had been tame in the past.)
<@SLViehl> Could Wulf compel the cat to stay with Gorok? As a bodyguard?
<RobertAndAri> So that could create some false suspense as clipping a snowcat very dangerous - till the formerly tame snowcat lays still for grooming and purrs and want's 'brush me too'
<Labloch> Or could the cat only tolerate Gorok, for some strange reason?
<Anne_Marble> Actually, Gorok will have to work off the cost of the cure by working for Wulf in the herb garden or something. Shirtless and sweaty. Wulf is wise.
<Jim> If you trim a cat's claws back too much, it bleeds and can bleed to death. If you just cut them a bit, the cat will sharpen them on anything it can.
<RobertAndAri> After that they can never get rid of her. I meant normal clipping, not back to the quick!
<RobertAndAri> And there's more humor on anything inappropriate she can try to sharpen them on!~
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Robert
<Anne_Marble> Priceless manuscripts, mages...
<RobertAndAri> Gorok's pants. Gorok's nice leather pants that she got already...
<@SLViehl> The spell-casting staff ends up in ribbons . . .
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> Snowcat ends up with singed fur...
<Yvonne> those gold-trimmed mage robes will never be the same
<RobertAndAri> Furry pest, next scene furry pest, next scene furry pest screws up something nasty the bad guys did because she's equal opportunity havoc...
<Labloch> lol on the cat humor
<Labloch> giant cat as comic relief. I like! <g>
<Anne_Marble> Story needs some humor anyway, Gorok was getting too depressed.
<@SLViehl> I'm just imagining this big, fierce killer cat clawing up the sofa . . .
<Kaelle> ...or the bed.
<Labloch> ...and the curtains
<RobertAndAri> And the controls for something like the green spheres...
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all you feline fans for some great ideas. James, you're up, and then we'll take a five minute break
<Labloch> (or taking over one bed, and so G and W have to fight over the remaining)
<Anne_Marble> Oooh. Cat claws green sphares, releases a mage.
<James> Sure.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah! Those are GOOD scratching posts! Good kitty do it again! Good kitty!
<RobertAndAri> Oh and once they are lovers at some point they will have kitty jamming herself between them for double snuggles. This always happens.
<James> Think Agatha Christie's "And Then There Were None" in the far future. Dozen people gathered to be killed one by one by rotten person. Towards the end, four people need to be gotten out of the way is rapid succession. It feels as if it's too obviously plot driven -- advice for avoiding that?
<RobertAndAri> How about an ugly accident on the part of a killer and three more of them get taken out in an explosion intended just for one, but no one knows who the real target was?
<Jonathan> All at once, but not by the villian's choice?
<Anne_Marble> Explosion?
<Labloch> Plot to have them kill each other off?
<Labloch> (the MC manipulates them to do so)
<Scott> They think they've got a way to escape and open the wrong airlock door?
<Kaelle> Someone else wanting one or more of them dead?
<@SLViehl> One victim disappears, two killed simultaneously
<Sarah> Some of them get paranoid and kill each other off.
<@SLViehl> Good one, Sarah
<Jonathan> One kills the other three to cover her own escape?
<RobertAndAri> I like Sarah's
<Sarah>
<Labloch> James, are you having the MC be the last one standing as with AC?
<Jenny> I like Sarah's too.
<Andi> What kind of mystery are you writing, James?
<@SLViehl> The killer suggests to one that the other three are in on it, and intend to get him -- the least stable member of the quartet would be a good choice
<RobertAndAri> Best suspect is among the foursome killed, and had actually been plotting one of the others' death when caught on the plot.
<RobertAndAri> If it's contemporary a car bomb could do 'em all in.
<@SLViehl> You could hide bodies, to be revealed later, but I really like one doing in the other three better
<Anne_Marble> One of the other victims might have been in on it -- perhaps manipulated by the killer into killing people since the beginning. (Agatha did some good ones like that.)
<Joel_A> Have one of the characters physically die but his/her mind goes into a clone. Or another body.
<@SLViehl> Or something that looks like an accident, that bumps all four off at once -- Robert's car bomb
<Joel_A> Or into the computer. Or have an AI get "killed"
<Anne_Marble> Food poisoning
<@SLViehl> Twisty idea, Joel
<@SLViehl> Ala Airport, Anne? lol
<Sarah> Oooh, good one Joel!
<@SLViehl> A toast with champagne. Four drink, four die
<Andi> Then there's always the salmon mousse, I guess.
<@SLViehl> The others are too depressed to drink, so they survive
<RobertAndAri> Or if it's not SF, well, someone had a stand-in that got killed and is quite alive and well and nasty
<Joel_A> <bows to Sheila and Sarah>
<@SLViehl> Or the reader could think they're still alive. Sleeping in bed, in stasis chamber, etc.
<Joel_A> Have one of the victims turn out to be a very sophisticated android.
<Andi> How quickly do the 4 have to die? All together or just in quick succession?
<Jonathan> If it's a bioresearch facility, and the characters are being killed by diseases, the fact that all four died together implies that they infected one another rapidly.
<@SLViehl> Then you'd have this frantic scene where your MC suddenly discovers they're all dead at once.
<Jonathan> Or were all together in one pace and were infected simultaneously.
<RobertAndAri> Kill someone by accident with a food allergy - one of my favorite spy novels someone was murdered with walnuts ground into a salad.
<Joel_A> Have all four supposedly die in an accident, but they actually turned invisible.
<@SLViehl> Robot goes berserk, kills four before they can diactivate it.
<Sarah> Or everyone was exposed at once, but those had/lacked the mutation required for death/survival
<Andi> Carbon monoxide.
<Anne_Marble> In "10 Little Indians," the killer was someone they thought had died.
<@SLViehl> Ah, excellent, Andi
<Labloch> Simultaneous discovery sounds as good as simultaneous deaths
<Jenny> (I played that killer once.)
<@SLViehl> Blow out an entire deck on a ship. They get sucked out into space
<RobertAndAri> Carbon monoxide is lovely if two of the victims were lovers who slept in the afterglow in the room the murderer trapped the chosen victim in.
<Jonathan> The kiler's not actually trying to kill people as such -- they are trying to unmask the one person who's secretly immune to disease?
<Anne_Marble> If they think their killer is dead, they will be less careful. Excellent reason to make a toast. With champagne. The champagne wasn't poisoned, but the bottle blew up.
<Sarah> Ooh, mad scientist!
<Yvonne> you still there James?
<Andi> Sounds like you're coming up with your own story idea there, Jonathan. <G>
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, I know. Polyandry. The four victims live together, a la "Starfarers."
<James> Sorry everyone -- I was disconnected and missed everything after I asked my question and before Sheila said 4 drink 4 die. Give me a moment to read through the little I have of what I missed, and I'll be right with you.
<Labloch> lol anne--the cork!
<@SLViehl> another twisty idea, Anne
<Jonathan> Oops. It happens now and then.
<RobertAndAri> They were screwing on the side. That's why they were in the room.
<@SLViehl> Poor James. Let's send the Marines to get him.
<Joel_A> Have one of the victims be the "controller" and the other three to be mentally controlled clones.
<RobertAndAri> Have the lovers be a pair of married people, not to each other, jollying it up in wrong place and time.
<Blair> Just have someone tamper with an elevator shaft...the carload of people plunges and it looks like an accident
<James> To collect me, Sheila, I hope, not to "get me"
<@SLViehl> Gender-related -- if all four are women, or men, you could throw a hormone virus at them.
<Anne_Marble> oooh, the L.A. Law solution.
<Anne_Marble> "Rosalyn!!!!"
<@SLViehl> Think "save" James.
<@SLViehl> Nice gruesome one, Blair
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for James?
<James> Thank you everyone -- I did read through everything I had, and appreciate all your comments, even if I wasn't responsive
<@SLViehl> I think you've got some great ideas to play with, James -- if you didn't get them all, I'll email you the transcript
<RobertAndAri> I don't think it'll seem contrived if the four that die at once do so because of bad synergy or someone's accidents and mistakes.
<Jonathan> Bit of a change of pace, really.
<@SLViehl> We're going to take five minutes now -- everybody, grab your beverages/snacks/whatever
<@SLViehl> brb -- must check on my kids
<Kaelle> Ok, brb
<James> Thanks, Sheila. I'll need the transcript, I think. What rotten timing!
<RobertAndAri> Scribe is changing files...
<Jehane> brb
<RobertAndAri> Beginning new file
<Anne_Marble> If anyone has a chance to check out a URL, could you please tell me if this bad Cassie Edwards cover looks like what I think it does?...
<Anne_Marble> Something about the Indian's breechcloth...
<Jehane> back
<Blair> i think you are right anne....
<Anne_Marble> It makes me think of the Drew Cary episode where he bought the cheap pants that were "tenting." Although in this case, I think the breechcloth is "teepeeing."
<Blair> lol, i loved that episode.
<@SLViehl> back
<Anne_Marble> Hi, I'm making fun of a Cassie Edwards cover. ;->
<RobertAndAri> Purr, is it SLViehlWorkshop@aol.com singular? Have you been getting the transcripts I send?
<@SLViehl> Oh, that poor woman -- she always has some zingers
<@SLViehl> Yes sir, I have -- and it's singular.
Andi Fits the books she writes---oops, did I say that?
<RobertAndAri> Purr, thank you. Wasn't sure if I remembered it right after I switched to using hotmail.
<@SLViehl> I got my ARC for Sun Valley today, and they changed the beautiful brick red title to Halloween Pumpkin Orange
<RobertAndAri> Mew!
<Sarah> Ow.
<Andi> Oh! Sheila! I found to tell you!
<@SLViehl> At least it's eye catching (wince)
<Anne_Marble> Well at least she gets the hunks...
<Andi> On the bus tonight, there was someone reading StarDoc!
<@SLViehl> Whoa, cool
<Anne_Marble> Lemme put it this way. In the Cassie cover, his breechcloth appears to be ...tenting. Or rather, teepeeing And he appears to have sealing wax on the front.
<RobertAndAri> All I can say is that often very ugly covers go on very good books and some readers are aware of this, looking twice...
<Gayle> I read your comments....then added one of my own...I love working with orange in my quilts
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Sarah> Wow. Seeing someone reading my book is WAY up there on my list of dreams.
<Kay House> Have some quiche here, Gayle, pass them around 'til everybody that wants a slice has one. tomato basil & mushroom. Here's another, and another, just keep passing. Plenty to go around
<@SLViehl> You're audacious, Gayle
<Andi> I feel sorry for the model, Anne.
<RobertAndAri> I like orange and yellow in context in sharp cracks running through lava black.
<@SLViehl> brb, tea
<Gayle> thank you for the quiche...here james have some....
<Anon_79> Why, thank you
<Anon_79> Arghgh, I'm anonymous again (said James)!
<Gayle> No I have always loved orange...and it works in contemporary quilts much better than traditional
<RobertAndAri> Oooh thank you! You brought the quiche! Purr!
<Sarah> Hey, my right speaker is working again!
<@SLViehl> Hey, I want some of the one with basil
<Andi> There's already a James here, so you have to change the signin, James.
<Kay House> (slicing up a little more and passing more plates) Here you go
<RobertAndAri> Your'e tempting me to do an art quilt titled "Volcanic Eruption" and use it...
<Kay House> both have tomato, basil and mushroom, all fresh
<Blair> hey... mine isn't.. sarah, can i have my right sound back? <G>
<James2> Oops, gotcha, Andi -- thanks.
<Jonathan> James II has a nice royal ring to it.
<@SLViehl> There was a very famous painting in which the artist used all orange -- woman reclining in a beautiful gown
<Sarah> Speaking of Volcanic Eruptions, has anyone ever listened to the Flash Girls?
<Kay House> and an opportunity for some royal shenanigans
<James2> I suppose I should get a nice violent Reformation going
<Gayle> well...why not robert...it would be a break from writing....I'm even thinking of getting my sewing machine out...but only thinking....I can tell the burnt out is almost over
<@SLViehl> Okay, last call for runs to the fridge and the powder room
<Kay House> no, Cromwell too dreary. Stick with restoration drama. much more fun.
<Kaelle> back
<Anne_Marble> I'll play a ocuple of rounds off Spy Hunter on my Palm
<James2> I bet I'd look good in a wig! So Restoration it is!
<Jonathan> Cromwell DOS? Reformat government (Y/N)?
<@SLViehl> I've got a Victorian silk quilt waiting for me to restore once I get done this book, Gayle -- can't wait to sew again
<RobertAndAri> I know why I haven't done much visual art or crafts, it's that without TV or a roleplaying game or someone reading to me, it doesn't engage my brain...
<Kay House> LOL Johnathan!!!!
<Labloch> LOL jonathan
<James2> Error 402. Government Type Unavailable. Please Reload Revolution and Try Again.
<Gayle> I supported Nathan and I with the mending and stuff...definite burn out...
<RobertAndAri> LOL James
<Sarah> rolf!
<@SLViehl> Ah, that'll do it
<Andi> That's great, Jonathan!
<Jonathan> Way to run with it, James2.
<Kay House> too totally much!
<James2> Your Bureaucracy is not responding....
<Kay House> LOL
<Kaelle> <snarf>
<Andi> <snort!>
<@SLViehl> lol
<James2> Parliamentary drag and drop -- fun for all the family...
<Jonathan> It's those bad private sectors.
<@SLViehl> Everyone ready to get back to work?
<James2> Yep.
<Kaelle> yep
<Gayle> yea
<Andi> Sure.
<James2> lol, Jonathan
<RobertAndAri> Aye, Captain!
<Jonathan> Aye.
<@SLViehl> Jehane, you're up, Jonathon, you're next
<Jehane> I want to kill a major character. He is the love interest of the MC. SHould I kill him before they get together, or after? It is a fantasy, and the two of them, along with some companions, are on a quest to save the world (as you do). I'm still in the early stages of plotting.
<Kay House> After
<Kaelle> Which would hurt the MC more?
<@SLViehl> After. You get more hate mail from readers.
<Anne_Marble> After! It's crueler that way!
<James2> After. More painful for everyone involved, and pain is good.
<Sarah> After is always more emotional.
<RobertAndAri> On the day they have a date to get together that night!
<Jonathan> Kill him first and have her fall in love with his ghost?
<James2> Writers are terrible people...
<Sarah> (discovering the joy of offing love interests)
<@SLViehl> And if you can work it, only let them have one night together
<Labloch> after. Then you can play with ghosts and zombies
<Joel_A> I thought necrophilia was illegal
<James2> One night where they lay plans for their rosy future -- then snchtt, off with his head.
<RobertAndAri> They got together emotionally and don't have time to consummate - or like Sheila said, immediately after before any bad habits are discovered. Then you have Revered Ghost Can Do No Wrong.
<@SLViehl> Killing him off after ups the emotional toil on the heroine.
<Jehane> After looks like the go.
<@SLViehl> Gives her guilt complex for life, too. I speak from experience.
<Anon_59> Have him killed in a magical fashion that leaves her unsure if he's really, really dead.
<Jehane> That was easy.
<Anne_Marble> Or... have them have a relationship for a while, then just when they start to grow apart, then he's killed. So she has guilt heaped upon sorrow because she was falling out of love.
<@SLViehl> Throw another one at us, that was too easy!
<RobertAndAri> Leaving her pregnant could be fun too.
<RobertAndAri> Oh yeah. Eve of their first fight before the making-up is a good wrencher too.
<Jonathan> Or the one night, she put him off because there's plentyof time for that later.
<James2> Well if it wasn't fun, they didn't do it right.
<@SLViehl> Ouch, Jonathon, good one
<@SLViehl> lol James
<Sarah> Have him killed by the other love of her life she thought had been lost forever.
<Jehane> Well...there is the best friend, who she doesn't like, and I was wondering if they should get together after the first one dies.
<Kay House> Lots of good guilt potential for best friend in that.
<@SLViehl> Double the guilt, if he's the deceased's best friend
<Jonathan> Depends if you're aiming for guilt, or anguish.
<James2> If she ends up with the best friend, you also get her anxious about her decisions and actions putting him in danger as well.
<Joel_A> Have the loved one's mind get transferred to the best friend.
<@SLViehl> Joel is into mind transfers tonight.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that Joel. Anybody see Scanners?
<RobertAndAri> Have the new love constantly compared to Dead Mr. Right for the rest of his life...
<Joel_A> I did, Anne
<Labloch> ::sitting back:: you guys are good.
<Kay House> Roberta Gellis did 2 books of a romance series like that. 1st husband then second. Titles: Roselyde, Alinor
<Joel_A> I love twists, sheila
<@SLViehl> Robert Silverberg did a mind transfer rather well
<Jonathan> Anguish might be healed by bedding the best friend; guilt will just get worse.
<@SLViehl> A couple of them, in fact
<Jehane> Not sure at the moment, JOnathon
<Jehane> the Valentine series, Sheila?
<Blair> she could get together with the friend, then wonder whose child it really is...
<@SLViehl> That's the one, Jehane
<Joel_A> Oooh! Have the loved one's spirit transferred to an animal in a faraway place. MC and the hated best friend have to travel together to get animal. In the process, they fall for each other
<RobertAndAri> Dead love heroic ghost carries news of their plight to the gods, the old Mayan thing of send someone loved to the gods, his idea immediately post death. But he misses her.
<Kay House> I'm just not real excited about this getting pregnant thing.
<Jehane> I don't think my MC is ready for motherhood!
<@SLViehl> It didn't do much for me in a recent popular movie, either, Kay
<RobertAndAri> Oh it's a good gutripper if she also miscarries and all that grief hits like a rock.
<Kay House> Robert!
<Andi> Convenient miscarries--ick.
<Jenny> Or maybe she's glad not to have the baby to worry about.
<RobertAndAri> Raises the ante on teh grief...
<@SLViehl> Have someone take the baby away from her versus miscarriage
<Andi> Depends on the woman, Robert.
<Kay House> Yeah, I guess it does, but -- aw heck it isn't my book.
<Jonathan> Yeah, a miscarriage would read to me as a bit arranged..
<Kay House> They do happen.
<@SLViehl> It's an often-used plot device, though
<Kay House> true
<James2> May I suggest baby-as-villain. A friend just got back from Africa -- guy their told her repeated miscarriages are the same evil spirit trying to get into the woman's body over and over, and it'll keep trying until it gets born.
<James2> oops -- guy there, not their.
<Labloch> baby aside, she could be NOT pregnant and grieve over that
<RobertAndAri> Oh James, that's a good one, good twist on it!
<Sarah> She has to leave the baby behind because the situation she's about to go into is certain death, then can't find the people she gave the baby to when she gets out alive.
<Jonathan> Ick. I like that.
<@SLViehl> Nice flip side, Sophie
<Jehane> James: sounds like Luercas!
<@SLViehl> James, you're a ghoul. I love it
<Jonathan> Hysterical pregnancy or one simulated by magic?
<James2> I'm entirely innocent of that one, Sheila -- apparently it's a genuine tribal belief in whichever country she was in (she did rather a lot of them).
<Kay House> No hysterical pregancies in my vicinity, but you can do one if you want.
<James2> Jehane, who's Luercas?
<Andi> Secret Texts, right, Jehane?
<@SLViehl> My son Michael was supposed to be a hysterical pregnancy, according to a doctor I should have sued.
<Jehane> ::shocked:: Secret Texts, by one Holly Lisle!
<James2> Arghh. James has another stupid moment.
<Labloch> what's hysterical pregnancy?
<Kay House> IN courage of falcons and vengeance of dragons leuercas is the nastiest of the villians -- holly's books that vincalis is prequel for
<@SLViehl> You get the symptoms because you're convinced you're pregnant
<Labloch> Wow. Man doctor?
<RobertAndAri> Woman that thinks she's pregnant and has all the symptoms for some reason (possibly endocrine in my view) and isn't actually pregnant.
<Jonathan> That's an older term -- now we'd probably say 'psychosomatic'
<Andi> There's also a false pregnancy, where the body believes it's pregnant and forms--stuff--goes through the entire delivery process.
<Labloch> (sorry to be sexist)
<James2> I prefer to think of it as a pregnancy so jolly you can't stop laughing.
<@SLViehl> Dumb doctor (not because he was male)
<Blair> so that could technically be called 'sorta pregnant'?
<Andi> Are we helping, Jehane?
<Kay House> good try, but no, that's not pregnant
<Kay House> Jehane?
<Labloch> Gotcha. Thanks guys.
<Jehane> Still here
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Jehane?
<Jehane> Thanks guys, there were some interesting ideas there!
<RobertAndAri> Pick the worst time from MC's point of view to get her lover dead. When it hurts most and when she hasn't got time to grieve either.
<Jonathan> Maximize the pain, but use it to drivethe MC.
<RobertAndAri> Driving her mad is a good idea, characters crawling back from madness are fun.
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some very inventive stuff. Jonathon, you're up if you've got a question, Joel, you're next
<Jonathan> OK, here goes.
<Jonathan> An isue with my WIP is 'translation'. All the characters are alien avians, and although they're turning out fairly sympathetic to a human reader -- I think -- I don't want them to be just humans-in-feathers either. What works for you, when reading SF, to give an 'alien flavour' without simply search-and-replacing human terms with made-up words? Different goals, outlooks, speech patterns, percepti
<Jonathan> perceptions, all of the above?
<Labloch> all of the above
<Kaelle> all of the above
<@SLViehl> Research avian behaviors, and translate that into humanoid life
<RobertAndAri> Really pay attention to instinctive behavior of the type of species and then elaborate with sapient complexity.
<Andi> Different values, both socially and moral
<@SLViehl> Robert and I are mind medling
<Jenny> Cultural mores, philosophy of life, anatomy-related details.
<@SLViehl> medling=melding
<Kaelle> avian behavior patterns translated
<James2> Tie the way they use simile and metaphor into what they are and how they think.
<Jehane> If they can fly, they'll have a different outlook on life.
<RobertAndAri> First thing that jumps out for me with 'avian' is real monogamy and incredibly elaborate courtship patterns.
<Labloch> Courting/mating rituals, feeding, courtesies, dominance, etc
<Sarah> Totally different concepts of certain fundamentals (like right and wrong)
<Joel_A> They don't react like humans to things we take for granted. Example: StarDoc's Duncan. Spock from Star Trek. The Pierson Puppeteers.
<Jonathan> Yes. Different. I never could stand species that were all <alike>...
<Kay House> peacock tails
<Jenny> Moving in three dimensions rather than two.
<Andi> Not all birds are monogamous though, Robert.
<Kay House> Yes, Jenny. VERY key!
<RobertAndAri> Infidelity might be outside perception, unthinkable, who'd want to? If it happened, aren't they just substituting whoever's there for their real mate?
<@SLViehl> Mating habits, nesting habits, grooming habits -- all good research to draw from
<Anne_Marble> They eat three times their body weight every day.
<Labloch> herd mentality--diff cultures within the avians--harems (m/f), or monogamy, etc
<Jonathan> Absolutely - birds even breathe differently than mammals do.
<Jehane> Are they predatory avians, or closer to prey species? Eagle or pigeon?\
<RobertAndAri> Right, there's birds that aren't. But behavior in rookeries isn't the same as in mammal groups.
<James2> Oh -- and a more human than human character in the foreground to provide contrast!
<Jonathan> Predatory carnivores.
<Sarah> They're very bad at bluffing because they have aggression displays (usally males)
<@SLViehl> So whatever is on the ground is food
<Joel_A> Study cultures outside the US and see how their people react to what we consider normal and conside applying it to your aliens.
<Jonathan> Interesting, Sarah.
<RobertAndAri> IF they're not monogamous, they go through all that elaborate courtship ritual for every casual lay and that's what's proper!
<Jenny> Weight obsessions. <G>
<Jehane> lol JEnny
<@SLViehl> Migratory patterns = nomadic lives
<Jonathan> True, though.
<labloch2> Hey, they (used to?) have polyandry in Mongolia!
<Kay House> In Secret Texts, the ear flipping stuff as a part of speech
<Blair> how would they feel about humans caging thier 'brothers' as pets?
<@SLViehl> With my bat people, I had them build homes out of their own fecal matter
<Joel_A> Vultures are virtually immune to disease. You can imagine sentient vulture-aliens wouldn't worry about hygiene.
<Jonathan> No human contact in this book.
<RobertAndAri> More than the monogamous bird types will go through great mating display - and also live in polyspecies areas where they're used to others 'like us but not mates or competition' easily.
<James2> Ah, oh well
<Jonathan> I've lived in homes that seemed like that...
<Jehane> Any alien (non-avian) contact?
<labloch2> Alien lekking should be fun to play with.
<Anne_Marble> But almost all birds also have very little sense of smell (takes up too much room in the brain). So they could live in smelly areas and not notice maybe
<Jonathan> Lekking?
<@SLViehl> If your avians have evolved into a civilization, their natural predators might, as well
<RobertAndAri> And I suspect avian aliens would look at pet birds a bit like we'd look at them keeping monkeys, they can tell it's not sentient.
<Jonathan> Agreed, Robert.
<Sarah> Though down stutffed pillows might get a bit grizzly...
<RobertAndAri> They'll have a wired base of 'what is the egg hatching child rearring behavior' rooted in their deepest past.
<RobertAndAri> One or both parent will vomit in the babies' beaks lovingly and that's like mother's milk.
<Joel_A> Or they could have exterminated their natural predators.
<@SLViehl> They could communicate by droppings, using less-evolved species as carrier pigeons, eytc.
<Anon_59> Of course, we can't necessarily apply OUR human conceptions about what is proper bird behavior. These are aliens after all.
<Sarah> Communicate using various types of plumage...
<RobertAndAri> Gaping would be what people would do to look cute, pleading and babylike.
<@SLViehl> Regurgitation to the young, yep, Robert
<labloch2> (lekking--courtship display in forum, where males strut before females)
<Jonathan> Some things are driven by physical laws (light bones) and some are arguable (mating behaviour).
<Jonathan> Ah.
<Joel_A> "Show" alien humor (if any). Or their reaction to human humor. Japanese, for instance, don't find being drunk funny.
<@SLViehl> Helpless young -- fledglings having to be taught the kill
<Kay House> Mary ? Doria Russell -- something about a Sparrow -- interspecies predation. really heavy stuff.
<Anne_Marble> Bird courtship is great, but their sex life isn't that great.
<RobertAndAri> Right, Jonathan, but a whole lot of different species have elaborate leking that's different from others.
<labloch2> It would be neat to evolve the aliens beyond earth bird behaviors.
<Jonathan> What I'm hpoing is that by contrasting different societies, I can show them moreeffectively than by infodumps.
<@SLViehl> Don't eagles start bringing back half-dead prey for the babies to learn how to kill? Or is that another species?
<labloch2> most raptors maybe?
<RobertAndAri> That's why I meant by 'elaborate to sentient levels' - sentient lekking would be high art, ballet plus poetry plus costume and jewelry with stern opposite sex judges critiquing.
<James2> Anon-59 is right. In terms of behavious, maybe it would heighten the sense of alienness if you mix bird behaviour with, say, the behaviour of flying insects.
<Sarah> Fairly sure it's a raptor thing. (Yeesh, something the griffin girl should know...)
<@SLViehl> I like that, James, Anon-59
<Anon_59> Anon-59 is Scott. Don't know why it won't let me change my name back...
<@SLViehl> Go to Scott2
<Joel_A> Sure, Jonathan. Have the humans and aliens meet up on a tree branch, for instance, with the aliens thinking everything is fine.
<James2> I know the problem, Scott
<Anne_Marble> (My ornithology professor used to talk about the "cloacal kiss." Yes, as a matter of fact, he w_was_ weird.)
<RobertAndAri> It's an instinct for Competitive Display so that could be anything.
<labloch2> warfare and conflict resolution would be another way to show differences
<Scott2> It worked! Thanks!
<Jonathan> Yep, love scenes are definitely the three asterisks and waking up in the morning.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Jonathan whose name I've been spelling wrong all night, sorry.
<Anne_Marble> The bird idea of a dirty movie is probably a movie of a male bird flapping his wings and displaying his coloring.
<RobertAndAri> Yes and it happens in the rookeries, all these displays to 'stay out of my nest' become tribal warfare that's non fatal display.
<Jonathan> Display warfare, interesting.
<RobertAndAri> They might not think of sex as something to keep private, just the natural final conclusion of the lekking, something public and lovely.
<@SLViehl> You can really have a lot of fun with this, Jonathan -- lots of good ideas from the group, too
<James2> Bear in mind the hard-wired type of bird behaviour we've been talking about will have a layer of free will over it in a sentient species.
<Kay House> What did you think fashion shows were?
<Jonathan> Actual fighting's very lethal, so lots of display to work up to it.
<@SLViehl> Too true, Kay
<Joel_A> And remember that the aliens think their way is "right" and humans are the weird ones.
<@SLViehl> Okay. Thanks for some terrific ideas, folks -- Joel, you're up. Suzanne, you're next
<RobertAndAri> That's what makes it a valuable evolutionary mechanism, some internal disputes get decided in dance contests with sports and display instead of war, allowing civilization. They'd be shocked at mammal bloodshed in territorial disputes.
<Kay House> Neat idea Jonathan!
<Jonathan> Thanks all!
<RobertAndAri> Or think of lawsuits as terribly dull without the dancing.
<Joel_A> Sheila, I have three questions: 2 writing related, 1 not.
<Anne_Marble> In natural bird populations, there are lots of "spare" animals who never get to mate. Competition is rough. During mating season, they may get desperate and try to gang up on a female.
<@SLViehl> Joel, we're a little pressed for time, so can we have the most important one? Save the others for next week?
<Joel_A> No prob, sheila.
<@SLViehl> Thanks
<Joel_A> Can one write potentially offensive scenes in a "mainstream" sf/f novel? For example, "Lying on the bed, he masturbated to a vision on him and her having sex while she turned into dragon form"?
<@SLViehl> sex offensive? or culturally offensive?
<Joel_A> To the readers.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, I've seen that many times. It's not that unusual a fantasy there.
<Jonathan> Seems a bit bleak. Would it be crucial to the story?
<Joel_A> I'm concerned about the word, masturbated.
<Sarah> So don't use the word. Narrate around it.
<labloch2> you could describe instead
<Kay House> dry clinical word. not good word sex
<@SLViehl> Censoring yourself is a tough issue
<Joel_A> Actually, it's more of an example, Jonathan.
<Jehane> If you can dress it up a little, you can probably get away with it.
<RobertAndAri> Bit dull if that's the only mention of it. Describing it in a little more detail and making it sensual to show how much he wants her, that might work better.
<James2> At worst, masturbated is too generic, and possibly could be replaced with concrete detail of what he was actually, physically, doing to himself.
<@SLViehl> I tend to agree with James
<Andi> Does it fit the tone of your story? Your character to do this? Will it flow naturally with the rest of it?
<Joel_A> Is that pushing it too far, James2, for selling the mainstream market?
<Sarah> Ditto Andi
<RobertAndAri> I'm with James too. Thought of that as a synopsis of it. If you're doing it, go ahead and show it.
<Blair> you could also focus on the vision, and show the aftermath of what he was doing at the time
<@SLViehl> Okay, logic dictates -- are there any masturbation scenes in any mainstream fantasy to date?
<James2> It seems to me that the worst you risk, on publication, is publicity as people argue over it, and that generally seems to lead to sales.
<Anne_Marble> Probably. And if not, that might explain the behavior of the men in some mainstream fantasy novels.
<Jehane> Not that I remember, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Having written a few controversial scenes, I will back James up on that
<Andi> I don't recall any, but sex scenes seem to be getting more common.
<Scott2> Mainstream stuff can have it sometimes for the shock value. Bujold's "Mirror Dance" had some really shocking stuff--all the more shocking because it was very unlike her other stories.
<RobertAndAri> And considering the wild weird sex that gets into sff, including fourways with a couple and a pair of mating dragons, it's turning something tame into controversy!
<Kay House> I can think of a lot of very racy novels, and ones that I've enjoyed, but not one of them includes sex for only one.
<Jonathan> Sure, but Bujold used it to further that character's development.
<labloch2> I can only think of one, a romance novel--Robin Schone's Awaken My Love.
<RobertAndAri> You hit a tiny random taboo! Solitary fun is off limits because people think if you've got the gun onstage you need to fire it at someone, think of masturbation as dull.
<labloch2> It opens with it, apparently.
<Jehane> Sex is quite common, and even rape, but I don't know any masturbation scenes
<Anne_Marble> there are others, people mention them in my romance list sometimes.
<@SLViehl> I did a masturbation scene in Dream Mountain, but that's romance
<@SLViehl> It was a mutual one, though.
<labloch2> lol Sheila
<@SLViehl> My editor didn't blink an eyelash
<Joel_A> Hi, cherylp
<RobertAndAri> Your'e inspiring me to do someting sometime with a tantric magician's solitary raising sexual energy to do magic, with fairly improotant intent...
<Jonathan> Well, the dialogue is generally rather limited.
<@SLViehl> and while some of the more conservative readers mentioned it, overall, no one complained much
<Sarah> I've seen a lot of thinly disguised subtext in bad Fantasy though -- wicked sorcerers caressing their throbbing staffs of power, that sort of thing. <g>
<@SLViehl> Ugh, Sarah
<Anne_Marble> Actually there's a novel called "Apprenticed to Pleasure" or something like that...
<labloch2> It's also important to ask WHY you want to have that scene. Lonely? Or fear of disease, of involvement?
<Joel_A> Sarah!
<Sarah> That was my thought.
<@SLViehl> throbbing staffs of power.....
<@SLViehl> snicker
<Kaelle> snarf
<Sarah> (sometimes wonders if the authors realized exactly what they wrote, but doubts it)
<labloch2> lol
<@SLViehl> Joel, why is the scene important?
<Anne_Marble> In "Apprenticed to Pleasure," the mages get their power from sex, and the hero has to go through his training...
<Andi> Couldn't get away with a line like that in Romance, could we?
<RobertAndAri> Hilarious if my chap was telepathic and THOUGHT he was entirely alone with what he was projecting into the universe...
<Kay House> good question Labloch -- what is the scene supposed to do for the novel?
<@SLViehl> Nope, Andi.
<Joel_A> Sheila, I'm still learning the limits ofwhere to go in scenes.
<James2> A magic system that would have made Lord of the Rings very different, Anne...
<@SLViehl> lol Robert
<@SLViehl> Don't limit yourself. That's my advice
<Joel_A> As someone mentioned, self-editing is an annoying companion to writers.
<Kay House> Ralph Bakshi would have loved it!
<RobertAndAri> Yeah. I'd say 'no unnecessary tea and sympathy' and use the right scene for your book.
<@SLViehl> When you start censoring your work to be PC, your creativity gets stifled.
<Andi> Doesn't Holly have an article that says not to worry about being PC and be true to your story?
<Joel_A> Understood. Thanks, y'all!
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Joel?
<Joel_A> Thanks, y'all!
<Joel_A> hi, suzanne!
<Suzanne> Hello again. I got bumped
<labloch2> Good luck Joel!
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all -- Suzanne, you're up, Sarah, if you've got one, you're next
<RobertAndAri> I'd find that a pleasant little passage if you put it in, considering there's many times in my life I've chosen something harmless over something stupid or just being frustrated. I'd feel vindicated.
<Joel_A> thanks, labloch2
<@SLViehl> Just in time, Suzanne
<Suzanne> My main character stutters but writing b-b-b-boo is a bit tired. Any suggestions?
<Kay House> I hear THAT, Robert!
<RobertAndAri> It's such a human little detail.
<Jonathan> First suh, syllable.
<@SLViehl> Tell the reader about the stutter through the listener's ears
<James2> Do it every so often to establish, then simply say, use '...he stuttered,' as an attribution every so often, when he stutters.
<Anne_Marble> Could youl just write "he stuttered" most of the time?
<Kaelle> My fellow worker stutters. Quite often he repeats whole words or even phrases until he gets it said.
<RobertAndAri> Hmm. Interesting stutters. Work out the variations on it and what makes him stutter worst. Subsume some of it into "he stuttered unintelligibly for a few lines and stammered out 'the bed's on fire'
<@SLViehl> He watched as John fought to get the words out, stumbling over every other word
<Andi> I have a character like that too--he doesn't talk much.
<Kay House> A friend of mine who stuttered didn't stutter every time he spoke, and never stuttered when he sang. EVER.
<Anne_Marble> Once in a while, be more specific during a tense scene. A particular word gets in his way, and he stumbles, trying to think of a way to avoid it.
<Andi> If you're in his POV, Suzanne, it's interesting to see how he feels about it & what he has to do to talk.
<RobertAndAri> Reread "I Claudius" paying lots of attention to the dialogue and how the author worked around it.
<Jonathan> Use sparingly. For emphasis, perhaps -- to show tension.
<Sarah> Have the character lose the stutter as he gains confidence -- a re-emergence shows when he's out of his depth.
<Jenny> I have a friend who doesn't stutter only if she uses a foreign accent.
<@SLViehl> The stutterer can use body language in place of speaking -- gestures, expression changes, etc.
<Sarah> Ooh, what's the mercedes lackey book?
<Anne_Marble> Jonathan Miller has a stammer. And he talks a LOT. He once did an interview about how he would come up with roundabout ways to avoid saying the word he knew he would stutter on.
<Kaelle> Sarah, exactly. When my fellow worker is under pressure, his stutter is worse.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, the paraphrasing fishing for a word he can get out is good.
<labloch2> MC could pause before most of the stuttering, too.
<Andi> I had a friend who only studdered on the first breath, but was fine otherwise.
<@SLViehl> I think most stutterers are champions with body language
<labloch2> I stutter sometimes, mostly when my brain gets ahead of my mouth.
<Sarah> Grr... not on my shelf. One of the characters loses his stutter when he sings.
<RobertAndAri> And look for the dramatic moment he does speak clearly because something is that important.
<@SLViehl> There are also types of stuttering where only certain letters trip up the speaker, like "p" or "t"
<Andi> Another friend only studdered on--what do you call them?--th , wh or sh combinations at the start of words.
<Suzanne> No one stutters when they sing.
<Sarah> Tara on Buffy...
<Suzanne> Tara?
<@SLViehl> Intermittant stuttering, I think, Andi
<Andi> Sarah--Mel Tillis does that--Country singer.
<Suzanne> Tillis is one of the stuttering poster people
<@SLViehl> Hard consonant sounds, if I remember correctly, are the killers
<Jenny> "specific".
<RobertAndAri> In the paraphrasing they'll look for a synonym without the tough syllable even if it's a more complex word.
<Sarah> Really good example of using a stutter to show what a character is feeling.
<Jonathan> People smiling and nodding probably drive the MC crazy.
<Blair> An account in the firm stutters a little when I talk to him about computer stuff... when he talks accounting he is fine... I think its a nerves thing.
<Kaelle> I stutter myself, usually when I'm very tired, or ill.
<Anne_Marble> Jonathan Miller once nearly missed his bus stop because he realized he would stutter on the name of the stop, so instead of saying (let's say) "Courtney Avenue) he said "The Avenue that is Courtney" or something like that.
<@SLViehl> Stress also causes stutterers to trip up more
<Suzanne> I know plenty about stuttering, being a member of the club. But is it boring to read?
<RobertAndAri> The point the stutterer is totally non self conscious and confident and doesn't, everyone listens up.
<@SLViehl> If it's every word, yeah, I find it hard to plow through
<Andi> Depends on how much he talks, IMHO.
<RobertAndAri> It's a setup for character change and a setup for making that turning point sentence really powerful. And a fairly quiet character.
<Jonathan> Perhaps treat it like any accent -- occasional reminders.
<Kaelle> ditto Jonathan
<@SLViehl> All good points
<Suzanne> ok. thanks.
<labloch2> Have him try to create situations where he knows he won't stutter, versus situations where he does?
<RobertAndAri> The stutterer could also be working at overcoming it and gradually get more intelligible as the book goes on, creating small payoffs.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Suzanne?
<Jonathan> It would depend on whether the stuttering is something to be overcome, or that getting people to simply accept his stutter is the challenge.
<RobertAndAri> My friend Dan started off worse than Claudius and became rather wordy and eloquent through a couple of years of diligent effort.
<Suzanne> The what if premise is something to do with aliens who think that the stutterer is the best human communicator they have ever met
<@SLViehl> I'd experiment with the dialogue -- see what reads well and stays true to the character, Suzanne
<RobertAndAri> Then it's vital to the story and do fun things with the alien dialogue too. Humor takes good pacing.
<Andi> Winston Churchill, I believe, was a stutterer too. <shrug>
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all, Sarah, you're up, Jenny you're next.
<Anne_Marble> That guy with the rocks in his mouth
<Kay House> That's good, Suzanne, and I think that body language, gestures & facility of alternate word choice and precision of word choice would all be key -- see Suzette Haden Elgin
<Sarah> Not really a question, more of a problem I'm not sure is fixable...
<Sarah> Gordon van Gelder has asked me to send in another story asap (yay!), but I have NOTHING left to send him, and I've discovered that I can't stop thinking in novel mode. I still have lots of cool story ideas, but nothing that works as a short story.
<Sarah> The kind of thing that has the best chance are those stories that deal with deeper issues (that AREN'T retellings of fairy tales). The one I have that really deals with that sort of thing (Jory) happened by accident -- I can't put "issues" into a story intentionally without it seeming forced (i.e. bashing the reader over the head with the moral stick). It can only happen spontaneously
<Sarah> I have NO idea how to go about getting any more spontaneous ideas.
<Joel_A> Oh, ohhhh....
<Joel_A> Watch the rush here, Sarah
<Jonathan> How DOES one manufacture spontaneous ideas?
<RobertAndAri> Boy, this is related to my getting started problem. Try thinking of theme and then set up an opening situation that expresses the problem. Then let the character solve it.
<@SLViehl> This is known as interested editor panic, I think -- happened to me
<Sarah> I'm just finding it REALLY hard to write shorts now. THey hit me out of the blue, or they don't happen at all.
<@SLViehl> You need an epiphany, Sarah (am I repeating myself tonight?)
<Kay House> Bounce off of a rant, an exercise or a random idea generator.
<RobertAndAri> My short story epiphanies usually come out of the Exercises on the board, I read through a bunch of them if the most recent don't grab me.
<Kay House> Something you care about LESS
<Jehane> Go people-watching, and make up stories about them.
<Sarah> Part of the problem is finding a conflict that can be resolved in under 10,000 words.
<@SLViehl> First, clear the deck -- get your focus away from novels however you can.
<Kay House> not don't care about at all, but care about less
<Sarah> Then there's the added problem of risking interrupting the Elysium spree I'm on...
<RobertAndAri> And one weird end run around the editor panic could be "I'm going to do short stories on five of the Exercises and pick one to send him after I've got some to look over and pick from.'
<Joel_A> read some short stories. determine which ones are-in your opinion-are the worse. Or you have a neat twist/POV to it. then write it.
<@SLViehl> What about drawing on your biologist's side?
<RobertAndAri> It sounds silly but I'm a novelist too and sometimes five short stories is easier to write than one.
<Kaelle> Or pick a supporting thread from your novel ideas and write that up as a short story. Or explore a direction that you don't want to put in your novel.
<RobertAndAri> Mostly because then I don't care if the one I'm doing for fun is crud and not the one I'm going to send (meaning it probably is cause it's fun)
<Kay House> That's a VERY good idea Kaelle!
<labloch2> Yeah, a side arc you won't put in the book
<@SLViehl> I put dolphins in fighter cockpits, what can you do with whales?
<Kaelle> Thanks, Kay
<Kay House> You could take some piece of back story from a novel and write it as a short story!
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, I second Kaelle - side stories in the same universe as the novel don't break novel focus.
<Joel_A> take a minor character from your novel and write a short story about him/her. Holly did that with Medsong from Fire in the Mist. Something about getting nine husbands and going to war over a goat....
<Jonathan> That does get around the problem in SF of needing nearly as much background behind a short as behind a novel.
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Kay & Robert
<Sarah> I don't think any of my novels fit with SF&F, unfortunately...
<RobertAndAri> It also saves writing all the backstory for the short story and turns it into a light project instead of one that feels like more work than it's worth.
<Jonathan> And it plugs your novel.
<RobertAndAri> F&SF said in the guidelines they got lots of fantasy and not enough SF
<Joel_A> write about one of your bad days (we rarely remember our good ones) then twist it into a story.:)
<@SLViehl> The griffin in the bank. Definitely the griffin.
<@SLViehl> I loved that story
<Sarah> Hey, that happened! (well, except for Variel)
<@SLViehl> It's wry and funny and different
<@SLViehl> Something like that, you'd have fun with -- it wouldn't intimidate you
<@SLViehl> When we have fun, we write better, I think
<RobertAndAri> Immensely so.
<Joel_A> VERY true, Sheila. Being a writer is not to be serious...until the rewrite
<@SLViehl> The museum. The lab. All places for wonderful things to happen.
<Kay House> I liked the griffin in the bank. Lots of people are annoyed by officiousness (sp?) in banks. a kind of a magical thinking thing. Pop! there's the griffin!
<RobertAndAri> The dolphin composing an essay on a study of human behavior from the tank.
<Joel_A> Or a more exotic location. The gym. The bathroom. Inside the colon of a dog....
<Jonathan> Too dark to read.
<@SLViehl> Orcas with an agenda
<RobertAndAri> Joel, you're sick, that sounds fun.
<labloch2> (gotta run) Happy writing everyone!
<@SLViehl> Bye Sophie
<Joel_A> night, labloch2
<Kaelle> bye Sophie
<Jehane> bye sophie
<Andi> Take it easy, Sophie!
<Kay House> as a reader, i cannot say i'm interested in being inside the colon of a dog, or even reading about it
<RobertAndAri> See you Sophie!
<Jonathan> Night!
<@SLViehl> lol Kay
<Joel_A> Sheila made me do it, Robert!
<Sarah> I used the museum and the lab in a couple novels... <g>
<Jenny> Didn't you once say you want to create cetacean communication technology?
<Kay House> good night sophie?
<Jenny> G'night, Sophie.
<Anne_Marble> night sophoe
<@SLViehl> Take the cetaceans out of their native environment and do something exciting with them.
<Kaelle> Ooh, what Jenny said. There's an idea.
<Anne_Marble> S.o.p.h.i.e.
<RobertAndAri> What's really sick is that I've written a race that would be fascinated by the dog colon story and want that in full sensory detail...
<Sarah> That's in one of the books, too... maybe I could play with that.
<Joel_A> why do the cetaceans always have to be sentient? why not the cephalopods?
<Jenny> 'Cause they'd always be putting their feet in their mouths.
<@SLViehl> Eric Flint already wrote an intelligent cephalopod book. Skip that
<Joel_A> Oh, Jenny!
<Kay House> snakes and snails and puppy dog tails
<Anne_Marble> Cetaceans open their own seafood restaurant. Dolphins are secretly evil and trying to take over the earth.
<Kaelle> lol
<Jonathan> Hm. if you put a LOT of liquid water in a bag in freefall, a whale could swim in it.
<Joel_A> And Alan Dean Foster already wrote about intelligent cetaceans, sheila. You're point?
<Jenny> People go to a planet looking to colonize it, find none because they're not looking under the water--mental set.
<Kaelle> Star Trek movie number 4
<@SLViehl> The cetaceans get tired of sonar, and decide to do something about it
<Jonathan> The trick is breathing. Spin it and have a central air bubble?
<@SLViehl> lol Joel
<Joel_A> @sheila
<Kay House> i remember the snail you had Cherijo almost step on Sheila
<RobertAndAri> all the assorted beachings are a nonviolent protest against humans poisoning the ocean
<Joel_A> that was good, sheila
<@SLViehl> That was very tongue-in-cheek, Kay, but everybody took it SO seriously
<Kay House> It was fun
<Kay House> i liked it
<@SLViehl> All the scientists wanted my head on a platter for that one little measly snail. Geez.
<RobertAndAri> I did too, it made sense and it established flat out 'anything might be sentient and you had better be careful'
<Kay House> What do you think, Sarah? Griffin in a bank?
<Joel_A> My spouse actually argued w/me about that scene, sheila, citing brain to body mass ratios....
<Sarah> This scientist didn't.
<Kaelle> The things some people focus on. hmmm
<Jehane> What was wrong with the snail?
<@SLViehl> It's fiction, I was having fun, these scifi-serious types need to lighten up.
<Sarah> I can't use Variel goes to the bank for SF&F, but I may be able to pick some things from the TTLG universe and use those...
<Jehane> (just read the book)
<@SLViehl> Variel is way cool.
<Jonathan> Or else to try a little escargot now and then...
<Sarah> He is. He's also pissed at me because I'm not working on his book.
<RobertAndAri> It made me very scared for Cherijo's patients till she got her balance!
<@SLViehl> Everyone got mad because the snail was sentient. Could never happen, according to my critics. So what?
<@SLViehl> But back to Sarah --
<Joel_A> Jehane, there is a current theory that sentience can only be achieved if the body and brain are at a certain ratio to each other. Sheila's "snail" would be impossible (supposedly)
<Kay House> So they have no sense of humor
<@SLViehl> What idea really captures your imagination, Sarah?
<Kay House> Variel, variel, variel
<@SLViehl> You want something workable
<Kay House> rah rah rah
<RobertAndAri> Or imagination considering that an alien's brain structure could be very different from anything Terran and still have an accidental resemblance.
<@SLViehl> We love the griffin
<Sarah> No, don't get him started, I can't use him for this market!!! He'll never shut up!
<RobertAndAri> What do you want to read tonight? That is the question.
<@SLViehl> How about an orca instead?
<Kaelle> yes! Love the griffin. Want to read about him.
<Kay House> You and microsoft, Robert.
<Sarah> There's a dolphin therapist on the Asclepius in TTLG.
<Joel_A> What fires you up, Sarah? Prejudice? Cats who won't get off your keyboard? Writers?
<RobertAndAri> An orca coalition is trying to buy out mocrosoft
<@SLViehl> The key to interested editor panic is to forget about the editor, relax, and let the ideas percolate
<Kaelle> Dolphin therapist? interesting
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Sarah?
<Joel_A> Have fun, Sarah!
<Jonathan> You're being offered a soapbox, in one sense.
<Kay House> variel variel sis boom bah!
<RobertAndAri> Dolphin therapist trying to give therapy to humans who are trying to teach him tricks.
<@SLViehl> The story is inside you, just let it come out.
<Sarah> The problem is stopping it from coming out as a novel... <g>
<Joel_A> Dolphin therapist helping previously captive dolphins adapt to the wild. Oh! That's an interesting story....
<RobertAndAri> lol - for that I go to Exercises as they are all short story size snippets and starting points.
<@SLViehl> Good luck, and thanks to all for some great suggestions. Jenny, you're up,.
<Jonathan> Pick the critical moment in the story and only let that come out.
<Sarah> (he's a human physiotherapist, actually)
<Joel_A> Well, we have different stories, Sarah
<Jenny> What are some ways in which humans and some alien species could both have a spoken language but be unable to learn each other's?
<Sarah> THanks guys!
<RobertAndAri> I read Zette's short story class transcript and applied to exercises
<Kay House> different vocal apparatus
<@SLViehl> sound wavelength differences.
<Sarah> Speak out of each others' hearing ranges.
<Kaelle> Tones one can hear and the other can't
<@SLViehl> Like the whistle only dogs can hear
<Joel_A> Smell, Jenny. The aliens subconsciously accompany their words with different odors.
<Jonathan> Different brain wiring
<@SLViehl> Amplification -- one speaks so loudly that it ruptures the typamnic membrances of the other
<Sarah> Speak at different speeds, one speices is too fast for the other to process, their speech is to slow for the fast talkers to process.
<Jehane> Sounds one species is incapable of making
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Sarah
<Blair> one speaks so quickly the other cant understand
<RobertAndAri> Social patterns, etiquette and politeness. If one race is ADHD and always scattered and the other linear it could get interesting fast.
<Joel_A> Aliens find certain sounds made by humans offensive. To them, it sounds like we're burping or farting
<Jonathan> How much technlogy is available to use on the problem?
<@SLViehl> Time lag -- metabolism differences. One takes a day to speak one sentence
<Sarah> Ooh, I liked that Star Trek species that only spoke in metaphor
<Joel_A> That was cool, Sarah.
<Jenny> Technology?
<Kay House> grammatical structure so strange that it defies translation
<@SLViehl> chemical communication -- one speaks with odors or dermal color changes
<Jonathan> Ie, is the one species unintelligible to the other only if not tools are used, or are tools useless?
<Kaelle> Technology, like instruments that can mimic sounds or whatever.
<RobertAndAri> Telepathy makes the non telepathic race unintelligibly rude, they do not order their thoughts or feelings and are always rehearsing loudly whatever they're going to say instead of punctuating it.
<Kay House> Anne McCaffrey did a ship who sang novel with chemical communication -- really neat
<Jenny> Oh. Well, what I'm aiming for is to have humans and aliens grow up together while both species are working on the problem--if I can get that to seem reasonable.
<Sarah> OOh, like Czerneda's drapsk. <g>
<Jonathan> The difference between two stranded individuals trying to communicate and a global project with a billion-dollar budget.
<Joel_A> touch. aliens communicate with each other by little "hairs" on their limbs. They hold hands will speaking loudly and communicate nuance by the hairs.
<@SLViehl> Both species could think the other is non-verbal, like the aliens think the humans are just big chimps
<RobertAndAri> Look at the differences between the topics men talk about and those women do and come up with something that leans way one way or the other for aliens, only one sex half understands them and the other finds them incomprehensible.
<Kay House> one speech equivalent to ideograms, the other to alphabetic words -- very hard to translate
<Jonathan> Depends on what there is to trigger conflict; with no communication, it could be hard to get along.
<Joel_A> one species-based on stalkers--think humans are constantly making noise.
<@SLViehl> Cultural taboos -- the aliens don't address each other directly, they go through an intermediary person
<Blair> maybe the aliens also use telepathy... the words they speak are enhanced by the images or feelings of emotion projected telepathically
<Kay House> i like that, Sheila!
<RobertAndAri> They don't share any of the human taboos but have some of their own about things no reader would think of as taboo.
<Joel_A> aliens have strong sex-linked social structure but can't figure out humans have different sexes and think we're two parasitic species
<@SLViehl> James White had a species who communicated verbally and with the movement of their pelts.
<@SLViehl> Different life base -- we're carbon, they're silicon
<Jonathan> Or perhaps there are differences among the aliens -- the low ranks can speak directly, but the higher up you go the more complex it gets. Only the grunts on both sides can talk to one another.
<Anne_Marble> Janet Kagen had something involving skin patterns that changed colors or something.
<Joel_A> Yes, Sheila, and thus they couldn't lie. Their pelts immediately displayed their emotions.
<Sarah> I have one character nobody understands because her species use words to complement telepathy, like gestures wit hspeech.
<@SLViehl> The aliens' language only transmits in water -- is that possible, Sarah?
<RobertAndAri> Aliens are a hive race and 99% of them don't think sex is important but the 1% that do, live for it and are breeders.
<Joel_A> Dolphin sonar would work the same. Dolphins couldn't lie to each other since they can see inside the liar and see the signs.
<@SLViehl> Oh, a hive race, I like that
<@SLViehl> Only the queen talks.
<Jehane> Maybe have body language the main part, with sound supplementing that
<Jonathan> And they all look alike.
<RobertAndAri> Hivers are loads of fun because they can vary so much within the race. Some of the castes might not even be sentient.
<Sarah> You'd probably be able to hear it above water, but it would likely be unintelligible.
<@SLViehl> Or have an alien race where most of the workers are born without mouths
<@SLViehl> 90% deaf mute
<RobertAndAri> Cliche that the breeder mother is the sapient one, maybe she's not and the soldiers, workers, scientists and others are and she's kept as sacred, loved and not in charge of jack.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I know some managers whou would've liked that.
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Jenny> I'm being called away. Thanks, everyone. These are great ideas. G'night.
<Joel_A> Have the aliens have different languages for each of their sexes. In Japan and other cultures, there is actually a male and female language.
<Joel_A> Night, Jenny
<Kaelle> G'night Jenny
<Sarah> Or you could go the hearing route again --vocaliszations only fall within the species' hearing range when they're transmitted through water.
<@SLViehl> I had a kid in StarDoc who hadn't reached puberty, and therefore, wasn't verbal. Night Jenny
<RobertAndAri> G'night, Jenny!
<Jehane> bye Jenny
<Sarah> Night Jenny!
<Jonathan> Night Jenny!
<RobertAndAri> That's cool.
<@SLViehl> Did I miss anyone who had a question?
<RobertAndAri> Though that tender Hsktskt birthing scene was so memorable...
<@SLViehl> lol Robert
<@SLViehl> I think that wraps it up for tonight, folks
<RobertAndAri> Cherijo won my heart recognizing those WERE cute healthy babies!
<Blair> birthing at gunpoint is tender?
<Kay House> Looks like it's time, anyway.. I'm fading. Good night y'all!
<Joel_A> Night, Kay!
<Jonathan> And good night all. Nice place you have here. Thanks for the brainstorm!
<Kaelle> Night Kay
<@SLViehl> Thanks to everyone for another memorable Friday night.
<RobertAndAri> Night, Kay!
<Joel_A> Night, Jonathan!
<@SLViehl> Stop by again, Jonathan
<Kaelle> Thanks to you too, Sheila
<Joel_A> Great job, Sheila.
<Jehane> Thanks again, Sheila\
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Maybe I'll remember how to spell your name right (smacking myself)
<Jehane> Bye everyone
<Anne_Marble> bye'
<Joel_A> Night, Jehane
<Kaelle> Bye
<@SLViehl> I'm going to make a transcript now, I hope, so goodnight all, and thanks again