Workshop & Class Transcripts: Writer's Think Tank #7 -- 03/16/02

<@SLViehl> Aha, there is a writer anon.
<Robert> Yep
<@SLViehl> How's it going, Robert?
<Robert> Hark, the scribe enters.
<Robert> Jolly lots better soon as I saw your lovely handle, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> The Pharaoh claps his hands: "Bring on the naked dancing girls."
<@SLViehl> Why, Robert, you sound a bit Brit tonight

<Robert> There! Looking up already! (makes sure he's got a good seat)
<@SLViehl> Hi Scott
<Scott> Hi, Sheila

<Robert> I tend to once in a while. It would be an affectation if it weren't the result of too much cultural influence off british television.
<@SLViehl> Welcome, Allikat
<Robert> Purr alli! >^..^<
<@SLViehl> The good old BBC. Remember it well
<allikat> hi Sheila
<@SLViehl> How are you tonight, Alli? Hi dar
<dar> hi
<@SLViehl> dar's going to ask a question tonight, right?
<@SLViehl> (hands on hips, looking stern)
<@SLViehl> lol
<dar> dar's a little too depressed about writing right now, I think. Does she have to leave?
<@SLViehl> Not at all, I'm just kidding
<dar> thanks
<allikat> I'm pretty good.
<@SLViehl> Want a good laugh? Imagine me as a golden blonde.
<Scott> You mean you aren't?
<@SLViehl> I looked like Trailer Park Barbie
<Robert> Sheila, that's frightening. The dark haired sorceresses in my fiction are usually fairly straightforward, so are the amazons.
<Robert> The blondes tend to be the nasty stab you in the back spy assassin types...
<@SLViehl> No, I'm an albino who uses a lot of red hair dye

<Robert> Now which color are your eyes to go wtih that?
<Robert> Oh albino's lovely.
<@SLViehl> I love blondes, too -- all my kids are blonde -- but it's definitely not for me
<@SLViehl> My hair is white now, as God intended it.
<Robert> That's grand, that's sort of eerie and elven like.
<@SLViehl> It's old, Robert. I'm old. <g>
<Robert> Not that old. More prematurely silvery I'd think, thought you were around my age.
<Crista> Hi, guys. <g>
<@SLViehl> Hey Crista
<Scott> Hi Crista.
<Robert> Hi Crista
<@SLViehl> I am. I started going white in high school. Probably from gymnastics class -- all that chalk
<@SLViehl> Hi Emily
<dar> All the women in my mum's family are silver by the time they get out of high school
<Crista> I'm only twenty-one and I find silver hairs in my head all the time. <g>
<Robert> I have no gray hairs and I'm 47
<@SLViehl> I'm going to wait a few more minutes for the stragglers, then we'll get started
<@SLViehl> We hate you, Robert
<@SLViehl> lol
<Crista> Yes. <g>
<@SLViehl> dar, any Irish in your family?
<Scott> I just wish I had some hair left--any color

<Robert> Well, it comes from the vampire side.
<Crista> I'm a natural red-head, so the silver kinda looks interesting with it.
<dar> Not on that side. On my da's side, yeah. Dutch, lakota, et al. on mum's
<@SLViehl> Scalp is sexy, Scott. My oldest son lost most of his hair already, and shaves the rest off.
<@SLViehl> Irish seem to go white young. Must be how God marks us
<@SLViehl> Or its drinking all that whiskey
<Kaelle> Hi everyone! I'm Irish heritage too. Have had white hairs since I was 20.
<@SLViehl> Hi Kaelle
<Robert> I don't have any Irish ancestry. Might be.
<Crista> Indeed. I'm mostly Irish with a little Scandinavian. <g>
<dar> I'm finally getting enough grey to appreciate.
<allikat> hi Kaelle
<Crista> Hello, Kaelle.
<@SLViehl> Is there anyone who doesn't have a question for the group tonight? dar, you're excused.

<dar> If it were the whiskey, sheila, all Southerners would be grey.
<Kaelle> I don't, Sheila, Came for the company.
<@SLViehl> True, hon, true
<@SLViehl> Oh, and if you want to rehearse something for Diana Gill, we can do that too
<allikat> I don't have a question, either
<dar> I want help coming up with one, darnit.
<@SLViehl> If you do think of one and want to be added to the end of the roster, just let me know
<@SLViehl> How about ways to cope with writer's block or depression? Would that help, dar?
<dar> Quite possibly. Although people have been working on the second part for decades. LOL
<@SLViehl> Well, I'll throw your name up on the roster. If you want to pass when we get to you, no problem.
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom/whatever runs
<Erik Forbes> am i late?

<@SLViehl> Welcome Erik
<Erik Forbes> hey sheila

<@SLViehl> We're just getting ready to go. Got a question for the group tonight?
<Erik Forbes> Not tonight (not one prepared), but put me down last just in case I think of something as we go

<@SLViehl> Sounds good
<Erik Forbes> hi everyone, btw

<Kaelle> Hi Erik
<Erik Forbes> Sorry I've been MIA lately, things are crazy around here, lol
<Erik Forbes> business seems to be picking up, hehe
<@SLViehl> Always good to hear. :)Okay, welcome to the weekly Writer's Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl.
<@SLViehl> Is there anyone who *doesn't* know how this works?
<dar> reckon not
<Kaelle> We lost Sheila
<Erik Forbes> doh
<Erik Forbes> aol...
<Robert> Ouch, that's happened before. Hope she gets back on fast.
<Erik Forbes> aye
<Robert> Think that's Sheila getting back in.
<Erik Forbes> wb

<@SLViehl> Sorry about that, folks
<@SLViehl> Cato bumped me
<Crista> bad Cato!
<Robert> It's not right to throw the moderator off the back of the sleigh, Cato!
<dar> You're not even supposed to be in here, Cato! Back to your room!
<@SLViehl> Okay, so unless there are any questions about how to do this . . . ?
<@SLViehl> Robert, you're up, Scott, you're next
<Robert> Writer's block, depression, a wall I'm having trouble getting past. All I know is I want a new WIP under my hands and want to begin in horror and end in hope.
<Robert> I've been throwing stupd little bits into an outline all week and they're not jelling, they seem trite and I don't think it's working and feel I'm going down the wrong direction.
<dar> circling the wrong way down the drain?
<Scott> Is it the details that are stopping you or are you unsure about the whole concept?
<@SLViehl> Have you taken any kind of a significant break since finishing the last novel, Robert? I'm not talking hours, either. I mean days.
<Robert> Just about. Unsure of the whole concept now, had a vague idea of doing a quest novel.
<Erik Forbes> robert: basically you know you wanna do *something*, but not what you wanna do?
<Robert> I cracked a harder wall on that Sheila. As soon as I tried to I realized how bleak my real life is and that's depressing, physical exhaustion is contributing. Erik you got it! What I want is to escape!
<Erik Forbes> hdhd
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Scott> Sheila's question is important: Sometimes you just have to give it a rest.
<Erik Forbes> hmm
<Crista> I kinda see Sheila's point. Myabe you need a little time to recharge the idea juices.
<Scott> I always have a between-novels-let down before I can get rolling again.
<Emily> That's a tough feeling for me too. Sometimes what I do when I encounter that is do something that requires creativity, but not big leaps of imagination.
<@SLViehl> You can't take and take and take from the muse without draining the muse batteries
<Emily> For me, I translate something I like; maybe doing crafts might help.
<@SLViehl> How do you refill the well inside, Robert?
<Kaelle> I think one of the suggestions in a previous chat was to indulge in your crafts to let your creative side play.
<dar> But then we have to look at the stuff in between. And sometimes, ICK, EEUUWW.
<@SLViehl> I paint, and sew, and clean my kitchen. Cleaning clears my head for some reason
<@SLViehl> I have the cleanest kitchen in Florida
<Scott> I take long walks. Let my mind wander.
<Robert> That's a problem right now. Usually by writing, after life has kicked me in the teeth. life's kicking again. I can't manage to do crafts without tv or roleplaying games or something with content. I just cleaned my fridge, and that left me taking a two hour nap in pain.
<Erik Forbes> sheila: i think that has something to do with external organization helping to make internal organization, or something psychological like that

<@SLViehl> Mental exercise, not physical strain, is probably better in your situation, Robert
<Erik Forbes> I do the same thing hehe
<Crista> I play role-playing games when I need to recharge.
<Robert> It's been four years since I had a medieval event or anything like that.
<Robert> Yeah. The cleaning up thing helps sometimes but I'm getting cumulatively run down from too many medical appointments and that nasty hill my house is on.
<@SLViehl> Crista, are there any online RPGs that you've done?
<@SLViehl> I used to play D&D about a million years ago, so I'm out of touch
<Robert> I'm in one, it's going well, couple of nights a week but not for long sessions as the others in it have jobs.
<@SLViehl> If you let it, Robert, life will steal your writing away from you. Fight back.
<Scott> I should have gotten a degree in D&D back in college--I spent a lot more hours on that than i did on my studies

<@SLViehl> I married a Dungeon Master. Never marry a Dungeon Master.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Erik Forbes> Hey! why not!
<Scott> That's what my wife says...
<Erik Forbes> I'm a DM!
<Anon_5> <laughs> I'm engaged to one now. Should I rethink? <g>
<@SLViehl> Are you married, Erik?
<Erik Forbes> ... No...
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Robert> Oh that would do me good right now, if I was married it would be her turn to be GM and I'd recharge.
<@SLViehl> Good.
<Emily> My sister's engaged to a DM as well.
<@SLViehl> Stay single. lol
<Erik Forbes> lol thaaaanks
<@SLViehl> Robert, when was the last time you laughed so hard you gave yourself a stitch?
<Robert> hmm... was either in chat or reading one of Dstar's emails, I have a couple of friends that send ejoke files.
<Robert> And Star Lines often gives me a good rofl
<@SLViehl> Excellent. When I get really depressed, I listen to George Carlin. He's awful, but he makes me laugh.
<@SLViehl> Or Dennis Miller -- although he's more an intellectual tickle. George is just raw, rough, and in your face.
<@SLViehl> Laughter changes your chemical balance. It helps.
<@SLViehl> The other thing is, try something new. Break up your routine.
<Scott> Or maybe read something different. Get some new ideas.
<@SLViehl> I took a class in Japanese paper art. I sucked at it, but it was different. It inspired me.
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Scott
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestion, comments for Robert?
<@SLViehl> And hi Joel
<Kaelle> Maybe learn a new craft - got any interest in crocheting or knitting?
<Joel_A> evening, Sheila!
<Joel_A> hi, y'all!
<Robert> Already do those things. And new crafts I want, like woodwork or leatherworking et all, would take money I don't have - money trouble's part of it, benefits cut off and all the comfort food's gone. Down to staples that demand cooking.
<@SLViehl> Try to find something to reawaken your senses, generate ideas. Art, reading, music
<allikat> I'd say take a break.Do something new, or something you love but haven'tdone in a long time. Don't force yourself--that'll stop the idea flow quicker than just about anything else I've found.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to everyone for some great suggestions. Scott, you're up, Crista, you're next
<Robert> I've got a half formed idea of some prisoner who's been one for a long time - just take my feelings and make the situation a whole lot worse.
<Scott> Okay.
<@SLViehl> Always good to channel it into the work, too, Robert
<Scott> I'm working on a novel-basically space opera. I'm using a historical model for the background (post-World War One, breakup of the old empires, rise of fascism) and I'm not sure how to keep it fairly true to the model without it being blindingly obvious to anyone who knows a little history. Any suggestions?
<@SLViehl> Is this an earth-based setting, or an actual-earth setting, Scott?
<Robert> Mix it up and draw on more than one source. Look at other comparable historical events.
<Scott> Well, it starts out on Earth but wanders around a bit

<@SLViehl> I like that suggestion, Robert
<Emily> Look at the sociological/emotional bases for events rather than just the facts behind them. Look at obscure events that are sometimes overlooked.
<@SLViehl> Use the stages of history's progression rather than the actual events, too
<Joel_A> Read examples of authors who have done similar things. Harry Turtledove duplicated WWII in a fantasy setting, for example.
<Scott> All good ideas.
<Joel_A> H.B. Piper is famous for it. Check out his Federation and Empire series. And, of course, the Little Fuzzy series.
<@SLViehl> Introduce alien elements that conflict or support your historical figures and events. Let them impact the outcome.
<Scott> I've read all of Piper's stuff. He's one of my favorites

<Kaelle> Even if you follow the events of the model, your characters and the consequences of their actions might be different.
<Scott> True. It is just the background after all. The characters get into their own adventures.
<Robert> They may change the model drastically with their actions anyway.

<Joel_A> And did you notice the historical models he used, Scott?
<Scott> Oh yes

<Emily> Throw in something that doesn't fit with the model midway through the book, to catch people who think they've figured it out off guard.
<@SLViehl> Is the European post WWI history, Scott?
<Joel_A> There you go! You can do something similar

<Scott> Not sure what you are asking, Sheila.
<Joel_A> Hmmm. Good point, Sheila. How about following that part of history from the Japanese/Asian POV?
<@SLViehl> I'd avoid recreating Hitler, is why I'm asking. Everyone does Hitler
<Scott> Ah. I see what you mean.
<@SLViehl> or the Stalin/Hitler/Mussolini
<Joel_A> Try Mussolini(?) instead.
<@SLViehl> triad thing.
<Robert> Flip things around a bit and bring Ghengis Khan forward with comparable equipment to the others?
<Joel_A> How about from FDR, Churchill, and Stalin's POV?
<Robert> Or bring up Chaka Zulu and give him some equipment and that!
<@SLViehl> I'd go for a different power structure from the standard facist models in our history
<@SLViehl> I think Resnick's already done that too, Robert.

<Joel_A> Oh! Read one of those alternative dwelling structures that constantly crop up in history and the news. I know there were several movements in the U.S. during the colonial period.
<@SLViehl> I'd go for more obscure, like someone said. Timothy McVeigh types.
<Joel_A> You can magnify it on an intergalactic scale
<allikat> i've got to go.

Sorry I couldn't hang out longer. See you guys later!
<Anne_Marble> Puff puff puff

<Erik Forbes> take care alli
<Joel_A> night, allikat

<@SLViehl> Guy who parks 2500 pounds of ammonium nitrate in front of the capital building and walks away.
<Robert> See you later, alli! Happy writing! >^..^<
<Kaelle> Bye alli, Hello Anne
<@SLViehl> Night Alli
<@SLViehl> Hi Anne
<Erik Forbes> sheila, i like that!
<@SLViehl> But in this story, McVeigh becomes a national hero.
<@SLViehl> And then takes over as head facist
<@SLViehl> etc.
<Erik Forbes> whoa, that'd be something
<Kaelle> Ooh boy, the window is flashing. That can't be good. Hope I don't get kicked out.
<@SLViehl> Freedom fighter turned dictator
<Erik Forbes> yikes
<Joel_A> That's also historical true, Sheila. We have plenty of examples of such types.
<Anne_Marble> Who had that famous line about today's rebel becoming tomorrow's dictator? (Karl Edward Wagner did a Conan story along those lines!)
<@SLViehl> That gives you the same power structure, different historical figures as players
<Erik Forbes> gah, brb 1 sec (phone)
<@SLViehl> Or a David Koresh, charismatic type. Jim Jones. Or (cough) Jerry Falwell
<Kaelle> Hulk Hogan
<Joel_A> Again, it's POV. Many Filipinos viewed the American military as conquerors and had rebel forces attacking the bases.
<Kaelle> lol
<Anne_Marble> Euwww, yeah, I can see a Falwellian dictatorship.

<@SLViehl> By replacing the standard Hitler clone with someone unexpected, you draw the reader's attention to your story, not the history it's based on
<dar> ACK! (lived in lynchburg, va)
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Scott?
<Joel_A> Sheila gave great examples, but how about some WOMEN in that mix!!!
<Robert> Build up something based on twisted Scientology? A cult that really has money and is off on its own weird trip?
<@SLViehl> Sure. Gloria Steinem. Margaret Thatcher. Madonna
<Scott> Well, to a certain extent I'm hoping to trick the reader. Initially the movement the MC gets drawn to will seem very sympathetic. Only later (if I succeed) will the reader suddenly wake up to what's happening and ask: Wait a sec, how could I have been rooting for these monsters?
<@SLViehl> (imagining Madonna running everything.)
<Robert> She'd be miserable, I think she's more into music.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, ooh, the graphic novel "V for Vengeance" had a British extreme right-wing dictatorship.
<@SLViehl> Then a charismatic leader would work better for your plot than say, a Hitler
<Scott> He was pretty charismatic to the Germans, as I recall

<Robert> What about a reversal, the Marxists get it in Germany and it's a fascist revolution in Russia?
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all for some terrific history twists. Crista, you're up, Emily, you're next.
<Anne_Marble> It was really interesting what "V for Vengeance" did with the plot. The modern Guy Fawkes type was the hero.
<Joel_A> Hey! Why does the dictator have to be a person? Make it an AI that no one knows about. How many folks remembed that FDR was crippled, for instance?
<Erik Forbes> i'm sorry guys

I gotta go, a client just called with an emergancy problem

I'll be back if i get this done quickly
<Crista> My question: In my WIP, I have two sisters as the main characters with opposite views on the world. Both were supposed to be the heirs to thier father's throne, but he left the younger daughetr out of the line of succession. The older sister becomes Queen, the younger learns magic and is bent on her sister's destruction. I'm at a point in the book where I was thinking of adding a third sister, th
<@SLViehl> No prob, Erik
<Joel_A> Night, Erik
<Erik Forbes> bye
<Anne_Marble> Good luck Erik
<Robert> Night, Erik
<Erik Forbes>

<Erik Forbes> hehe thx
<Crista> I'm at the point where I am considering adding a thrid sister in, the illegitimate daughter of thier father, as a counter for the younger sister's dark magic. Sort of a white versus black magic sort of thing. But I'm worried that this will retract from the dynamic between the other two sister.
<Crista> Whew.
<Crista> distract, not retract.

<@SLViehl> Who is the MC, Crista?
<Robert> Not if she's got her own agenda, then it mixes it up good and calls the whole question of legitimacy into question.
<Crista> If I had to pick one? The oldest sister, the one who actually gets the throne.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe you can cloud whether the third sister is really white magic or something else entirely.
<Scott> Perhaps have the third sister as comic relief? Have her rude and irreverent and making fun of the other two being so gloomy and serious.
<@SLViehl> The third sister would be good as an unknown element -- one the reader isn't able to peg immediately as good or evil, or on either sister's side
<Robert> Yeah. With some elements of both and somewhat a tiebreaker, with her own agenda.
<Anne_Marble> Is she white magic, grey magic? If she's grey, she can do both good and bad things.
<@SLViehl> Third sister has a hidden agenda, maybe?
<Crista> That could work. I know she's going to come out as a dark froce the older sister is going to think that she's out to get her, too. Just like the other sister.
<@SLViehl> Playing both sisters to get them to kill each other, and grab the throne for herself?
<Joel_A> Uh, what is meant by "white and dark magic?"
<Crista> The third sister -does- have a hidden agenda. In the world, magic is forbidden and practiced in secret. She wants the Queen to make it legal again.
<@SLViehl> white magic does no harm. Black does all kinds.
<@SLViehl> black=dark
<Crista> She wouldn't really be interested in the throne. Not like the other two are.
<Robert> Then you're laying up an ally for the nonmagical queen, someone she must recognize and ally with in order to survive bad sis. Sounds good.
<@SLViehl> But if she ruled, she could do all the magic she wants . . .
<Anne_Marble> What if the MC has a misperception that the illegitimate sister is evil because of the type of magic she uses? Perhaps she's prejudiced against, say, necormancers.
<Crista> Ooooh, that could make it interesting Anne.
<Robert> I like it if everyone thinks illegitimate sis is evil and she's not, and thinks she's ambitious to be queen when she just wants a social reform.
<Crista> The Queen is prejudiced against ALL magic.
<@SLViehl> And in facing that the third sister's talents are necessarily evil, it could change the MC, help her to grow
<Joel_A> depends on definition of "harm," sheila. but that's another discussion. Hmmmm...about Crista's question....
<Robert> Right, so it's up to this third sis to teach her otherwise.
<@SLViehl> I meant not necessarily evil up there, sorry
<Crista> So the thrid sister could really add something to the story rather than steal power away from the original relationship..
<Anne_Marble> What if there's a question of birth order -- the illegitimate sister might or might not be the legal heir after all.
<Joel_A> ah. thanks, Sheila! And how did you know I had question(s)?

<@SLViehl> Sure, Crista, I think she gives the power struggle more excitement and depth. You don't know who's going to ally with who, etc.
<@SLViehl> Joel, the day you don't have a question, I want to be there.

<Crista> Well, the thing is.. the older sister was declared illegitimate, ala the Nery the 8th fiasco. Which makes the younger sister the actual heir.
<Joel_A> LOL, Sheila

<Crista> On his death bed, he refuses to name a succession and the older sister gets it anyway.
<Joel_A> Hmmm. Crista, it's now sounding like a legal battle.
<Joel_A> what do the supporting staff (e.g., like the nobles, the peasants, etc.) think?
<Kaelle> I think the plot thickens with three sisters. Lots of room for trouble.
<@SLViehl> But her hold on the throne is shaky because of it, and I like that
<Anne_Marble> In royal succession, legal battles are often fought with swords and daggers.

<Joel_A> LOL, Anne. And so true

<Crista> And there are many willing to help the younger sister because, according to many, the odler sister shouldn't have been in line for the throne, anyhow.
<Anne_Marble> What are the age differences? Could the illegitimate sister have witnessed something that will give power to one of the other sisters later? A secret?
<@SLViehl> Gives a good foundation to the younger sister's claim, I like it.
<Anne_Marble> (I don't mean magical power -- political)
<@SLViehl> Maybe the King did name a successor, but magic was used to erase his choice from records/everyone's mind, etc
<@SLViehl> and little sister discovers it
<Anne_Marble> "I saw Daddy killing Santa Claus."
<Joel_A> Oh! a FOURTH player, Sheila?
<Crista> Hmm. Good question, Anne. I had originally though her to be the child of a peasant and the King, but if she was the daughter of a noble woman and the King,,, she might be bale to lure some of the nobles that are against the Queen to protect her...
<Crista> If she promises to lift the ban on magic.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Crista?
<Kaelle> Yes, write quickly! I want to read this.

<Joel_A> Why is there a ban on magic? Is it just an arbitrary decision or is there a reason?
<Robert> Keep third sister and let court turn into a snake pit! I want to read this too!
<@SLViehl> I really like the third sister, Crista -- mixes it up nicely
<Crista> mage wars in the world's history. decimated the population and brought about genetic alterations in much of the population.
<Robert> Oh and where do the church and the military stand on all that?
<Joel_A> thanks, crista. so many of the folks will support the Queen as well.
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for your take on the sibs -- Emily, you're up, then we're taking a five minute break
<Crista> Military and church are with the Queen, after all she supports the churches doctrine and if the military oppoised, she could fire them.
<Crista> Thank you, guys!
<Emily> In the recently-finished novel there are two races of people, one basically-humans and one basically-humans-without-wings. Is it at all plausible that they would be capable of interbreeding? The story requires it, but my limited knowledge of genetics/biology says it's probably impossible.
<@SLViehl> Oh boy, do I get flack for this one. LOL
<Emily> Err...that should be basically-humans-*with*-wings.
<Kae> Huh, Sheila has interbreeding - if the story demands it, do it.
<@SLViehl> I'll give you the standard SFWA answer, Emily, then my take on it.
<Robert> No, I liked it better the other way. <G> If the winged ones are the dominant culture that's how they see it and it's a real eyegrabber.
<Crista> If you look at the wings as a gentically dominant or recessive trait, it sounds very plausible.
<Anne_Marble> Heck, if they can put human genes inside mice... ;->
<Crista> If the wings are the only idfference..
<@SLViehl> I have been told repeatedly that it is impossible for my aliens to interbreed the way they do. And there are way more radical differences in the races in my books.
<Emily> Magical ability is believed to be linked to whether or not you're part of the winged race...but that's not necessarily true.
<@SLViehl> This is the standard SF intellectual inner-circle Rules Perpetuated Ad Infinitum
<@SLViehl> My take on it is different
<Joel_A> sheila! you're ranting!

<Kae> (ad nauseum, Sheila? g)
<@SLViehl> Hey, I get a lot of hate e-mail about this, Joel. I'm entitled.
<Robert> (cough cough) and man will never fly either, righto, sure, I get their pov Sheila. Sure don't know what's happened to sfwa (shakes head)
<@SLViehl> Look, I was raised Catholic. And as much as everyone wants to spit on the Catholic church, they taught me one thing
<@SLViehl> All life comes from God
<@SLViehl> And that's how I attacked the StarDoc universe. All life came from one source.
<Anne_Marble> Genetic engineering would make it possible. So would magic. And ... thingie... different species that actually came from a common ancestor (though that sounds too Star Trekkie)
<Joel_A> LOL, sheila. Kinda reminds me about how role-players will argue over probability of dice roles to be "realistic". Oy! It's a fu%$@! GAME, folks

<@SLViehl> My universe is actually an alternate universe. I realize that biological examples in nature contradict what I write.
<@SLViehl> on the other hand, no one on this planet has ever actually tried interbreeding with an alien humanoid, so where's the proof?
<Crista> But it's -your- world, Sheila. You ARE God. All life comes from you there. <g>
<Anne_Marble> Sheila, there's a German Shepherd on "Animal Precinct" called Sheila!
<@SLViehl> If you want to make the SF dweebs happy, Emily, come up with a plausible explanation for interbreeding.
<@SLViehl> Genetic engineering, something
<Joel_A> Also, Sheila, there is currently no "proof" of FTL travel. So what's it with these so-called "legit" sf sources?
<Anne_Marble> Why make them happy? Let 'em suffer.
<@SLViehl> If you don't care what the dweebs think, write what makes you happy.
<Crista> I second that advice.
<Kae> ditto
<Emily> It's fantasy rather than SF, so I might have a little more leeway. Anyway, it's good to know that I haven't been coming at this in completely the wrong way.
<@SLViehl> If I can sell books with interbreeding aliens, you can too

<Robert> You'd have a lot since you don't know if 'wings' are a trait associated with random odd gene by way of magic.
<Joel_A> yeah, emily. Elves and humans breed and have children all the time.
<Crista> I got caught up in the 'must provve why and how everything works' thing. It's stalled me on dozens of books. I'm to the point now where, 'It's my world, i can make up the freaking explanations."
<Kae> lol
<Emily> Come to think of it, even Elrond was half-elven, wasn't he?
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, you could always say that they all sprang from elves, or wizards made interbreeding possible (perhaps because they thought races would get along together if they could interbreed).
<Robert> More important to decide it and stay consistent with your own. Gordon Dickson was the one who taught me that and he was more sf than fantasy. Right. Elrond was half elven.
<@SLViehl> The readesr don't want a lesson in biogenetics. They want a good story.

<Joel_A> Arthur Conan Doyle was not consistent with his Holmes novel.
<Anne_Marble> Awww, sad German Shepherd. It's a good thing you're not watching this, Sheila. :-<
<@SLViehl> Don't tell me, Anne, I'll probably start crying
<@SLViehl> Tried to rescue a turtle from the road the other day, but he'd been laying in the sun too long. We lost him.
<Anne_Marble> I've seen this one before, they do save her. (phew!)
<@SLViehl> sniff
<Kae> And, there's an awful lot of potential for conflict in your setup, Emily. Sounds interesting.
<Robert> Your off the cuff 'humans, and humans without wings' is a hook line in itself!
<@SLViehl> I liked how you described the bird-race in our last session (I think it was) -- they sound really cool
<Emily> Both of my MCs are half-breeds, actually (though one doesn't realize it for a while). So there are some interesting dynamics there.
<Anne_Marble> How are people in your WIP react to people of mixed race, Emily? Are they fair, or are they prejudiced?
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Emily?
<Emily> It's a recessive gene--they look just like normal people-without-wings. So the one who's born into the people-with-wings culture gets a lot of insults about it.
<Robert> Go for it, don't let the turkeys shoot you down. It sounds cool.
<Joel_A> ignore the biology, emily, and tell us a story!
<@SLViehl> Have fun -- interbreeding is one of the coolest aspects of writing SF for me

<Anne_Marble> Besides, remember that domesticated turkeys have wings but can't fly. ;->
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all for your radical ideas on proliferation.

Let's take a five minute break now, then I have an interesting question for the group
<@SLViehl> brb, going for tea
<Robert> Changing the file...
<dar> soda run
<Kae> brb
<Robert> must get coffee...
<Crista> Hehehe. Now I'm getting excited about writing the next chapter in the WIP. <g>
<Emily> And I'm getting excited about revisions.
<Crista> How long is your novel, Emily?
<Emily> Only 60,000 words. I plan to expand it in the second draft.
<Crista> (nods)
<Anne_Marble> I am visiting my parents. I came here early because tomorrow, there's a Paper Show in York. :->
<@SLViehl> back
<@SLViehl> Paper? (ears perk up)
<Crista> What kind of paper?
<@SLViehl> exotic paper?
<Kae> bak, what kind of paper?
<@SLViehl> rice paper? Silk?
<Anne_Marble> Books, old magazines, prints, collectable paper, postcards, pulp magazines...
<Emily> Sounds wonderful.
<Crista> Oooooo.
<Anne_Marble> Yessss. (drooling already)
<@SLViehl> I want to go stay with Anne's parents too . . . .whine
<Kae> ooooo
<Joel_A> "He tired to stand up..." Yikes! And this got published???
<Anne_Marble> But they make sure you eat your veggies and ask if you've cleaned your house.
<@SLViehl> All the time, Joel. All the time. lol
<Anne_Marble> What are you reading, Joel? :-<
<@SLViehl> Better than my mom. She comes over to check.

<Joel_A> Some samples of novels, Anne.
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom/whatever you need want or desire
<Kae> Hmmph. My mother lives with me. Can't get away with anything.
<Joel_A> As a (former) technical writer, I find it very easy to get knocked out of stories if they have blatant errors in them.
<@SLViehl> (pats Kae on back)
<Crista> I need, want, desire a new apartment. (scowls at her downstairs neighbors)
<Anne_Marble> Pitter patter pitter patter....
<Kae> (thanks, Sheila, I needed that)
<@SLViehl> Okay folks, are we ready to get back to work?
<Kae> Yep!
<Joel_A> Let's party, Sheila!
<Crista> I ammm!
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<@SLViehl> This is a writer/reader question -- I want to hit both sides of your brain. dar, if you've got a question, you're up after me.
<Anne_Marble> (Hsssst, soda opens)
<@SLViehl> My editor read Blade Dancer and wrote her thoughts on it to me today.
<@SLViehl> Basically? She loved it. "Damn fine book" she says
<@SLViehl> She never says this about anything I write.
<@SLViehl> So I think I've got a winner, and I want to back this one with everything I've got in my promo budget
<@SLViehl> That's $3K a year, btw
<@SLViehl> My question to you guys is, as writers, what's the one thing you'd do to promote a book, and as readers, what makes you want to buy a book?
<Anne_Marble> Mostly, what I know is how not to promote a book, and you already know how to comport yourself. ;->
<Kae> The one thing that makes me buy a book is the first page or two I read after I read the back copy.
<Crista> To promote: I'd make a great website and then advertise that. As a reader? I mostly go with word of mouth. If I have a freind that likes a book, I usually try it out.
<Anne_Marble> Some people on AARlist have said they don't really buy books because of bookmarks, magnets, etc., even if they collect them. (However, I do like Nora Roberts' yearly calendar magnet, but it must be expensive.)
<Emily> About 90% of the books I buy are because of word of mouth.
<@SLViehl> Thank you ma'am
<Robert> Sheila, what I'd do if I had a $3k budget would be to have a very good radio ad made up and run it on radio stations late at night. In college towns where people read.
<@SLViehl> I was thinking of getting $3K in books and getting them out there somehow
<Joel_A> as a writer: get the best damn artist I can get and someone to write a great blurb on the back cover....
<@SLViehl> because I believe in word of mouth over any other promo
<Anne_Marble> Is there a way to copy review quotes on doo-hickeys?
<Robert> That's the other thing. Give away copies to gossips. Sheila's already the best blurber I know, that' free not on budget.
<Anne_Marble> Or quotes from readers, reviewers, other writers?
<Emily> Back-cover, cover art, and the first two paragraphs are pretty important, if I'm in a bookstore.
<@SLViehl> I don't want to do the postcard/bookmark thing, that doesn't work
<@SLViehl> I've asked to get in on cover art and cover copy (crossing fingers)
<Joel_A> as a reader: I'm very visual. Covers attract me. Same with an interesting back-cover blurb. Oh! And the FIRST page of the story in the book.
<Anne_Marble> Did you ever read "Unleashing the Ideavirus," Sheila? It's for free.

<Crista> Myabe have book giveaways on your site? testing people on Stardoc trivia and you give out a book a week or something?
<Emily> But I just bought a whole armful of books solely because enough other people told me they were good.
<Anne_Marble> Do you have a "Tell a Friend" feature on your site?
<@SLViehl> I need to do more with my site, that's true
<@SLViehl> and no, I don't, Anne

<Emily> (This is because I don't live near enough to an English bookstore.)
<@SLViehl> How else could I distribute books, Crista?
<@SLViehl> To readers, I mean?
<Anne_Marble> I'm trying to think of which important vocal people could get copies... Besides Harriet Klausner. ;->
<Robert> Find presidents of fan clubs and send out a copy to them.
<@SLViehl> I was thinking of offering them to various reading groups I have addresses and info on
<Robert> Really good idea.
<Anne_Marble> Some bookstores have SF book groups now...
<Emily> Yes. Reading groups, reviewers, people with popular web sites...
<@SLViehl> Or giving them away at seminars at universities
<Robert> And if you are going to do the buffy media tie in send some to buffy fan groups who may like your writing.
<Crista> Hmm. Maybe alsodonate to libraries or something? Like donate a copy to thier shelves if they don't have it already?
<Joel_A> Go onto Amazon and B&N. Find those "top reviewer" folks. E-mail them and ask if they would like a free copy of your book or at least a soft-copy of the first couple of chapters to review.
<Anne_Marble> Do you know any very verbal biologists?
<Emily> I always mention the books I'm reading on my web site, and my reactions to them. I don't know if they influence other people, but...
<Crista> I'm not really good at thinking of promotion stuff. <g>
<@SLViehl> I just want the book to sell itself -- I think if enough people read it, word will get around (hopefully)
<Emily> When I'm deciding what to buy, if I've heard enough quick mentions of "X is good," they pile up until I have to buy it.
<Kae> What name are you using for it?
<Robert> The kind of people in fan clubs for things resembing the StarDoc universe will happily kick off into a New Fandom when it hits.
<@SLViehl> S.l. Viehl
<Anne_Marble> Hee hee, pretend to be a fan and post a copy in alt.binaries.e-books. ;->
<Joel_A> Oh! Why not, Anne?

<Anne_Marble> (OK, your publisher might disagree with that method...)
<@SLViehl> No, I don't want to do any tricky stuff -- that usually backfires.

<Robert> I am not kidding. Babylon 5 fan clubs would like your style
<@SLViehl> Okay, these were all great ideas, thanks folks
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, but people will start writing StarDoc slash.

<Robert> And on the site do up a little article about book ordering - as a handout for clubs. When I was in the Blakes 7 club we wanted a book and all went in together and did a wholesale order of 25 copies.
<@SLViehl> dar, if you've got a question, you're up, then since Erik is still MIA, Joel is next
<dar> Sorry I missed most of this; looking for relief for pain that's reaching screaming level.
<Joel_A> My spouse said book tour. How about coming out West to the Festival of Books at UCLA? There's a bookstore (Dangerous Visions) that has massive signings.
<Kae> I don't know why you're worried, Sheila. If you're using S.L.Viehl, the way the Stardoc books fly off the shelves.
<@SLViehl> No book tours (sign of the cross)
<Anne_Marble> Oooh oooh, got another one. PIck a favorite charity and give a copy of it to fans who make a certain donation -- maybe in your name or in the name of StarDoc.
<@SLViehl> I just want to back this one with everything I can, Kae. I want the NY Times BSL. Greedy witch that I am
<Anne_Marble> That would make a cool press release.
<Joel_A> ??? Did you imply that's a blessing or a curse, Sheila?
<Robert> And send copies to the NYT reviewers
<@SLViehl> Cool idea, Anne
<Crista> That's a good one, Anne.
<Anne_Marble> Euwww, not NYT, they sucketh verily
<Joel_A> What about Locus? They're a sf/f mag. They do reviews constantly.
<Robert> Especially if it's a medical charity considering how StarDoc flies off the shelves
<@SLViehl> I need to sell at least 200K copies to be considered for the NYT BSL.
<Kae> Do you have numbers on StarDoc?
<Anne_Marble> Can you read local papers on-line and find out which ones have good SF reviewers? Maybe ask on this site if anyone knows a local paper that does fair reviews of SF?
<@SLViehl> Locus isn't interested in me, I don't fit the profile
<Crista> How close to that are you with the Stardoc novels?
<Anne_Marble> SF Chronicle. They're a pro market now, anyway.
<Joel_A> Huh? That makes no sense, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Not even Carol Cushman? (Whatever her name is)
<@SLViehl> About halfway, Crista. But this one is a standalone, so it should sell better, faster, etc.
<Joel_A> StarDoc is obviously sf
<dar> I have a new MIP, as andi says. Only an opening scene and some character delving. Opener has Parish in an offworld prison with a cellmate who hates her, of course. The prison itself is almost a character, as it was a breeding and burial ground for an ancient species, the walls are the bodies and the doors are made from the bones.
<@SLViehl> Remember, folks, I'm a romance writer. They see me, they make the sign of the cross.

<@SLViehl> oops, sorry dar, go ahead
<@SLViehl> Love the prison already
<Kae> ooh sounds chilling already Dar
<Joel_A> Nice, dar. Not

<Emily> OK, I'm even more interested in this now than I was in chat a while back...
<dar> The guards are all deaf, so they don't have to hear the prisoners (multitudes of species, usually very vocal when subjected to pain).
<@SLViehl> Nice symbolism too
<Robert> And a nice loophole for irony "Hey, some prisoners are escaping"
<Robert> Nope they didn't hear that!
<Crista> Oh, that's a scary detail, dar.
<dar> Working title is Godchange. parish thinks she's the only person who has this funny idea that god has changed somehow. (she isn't but nevemind that for now) She has a sister on earth, Derri, whose lakota husband does undercover work. he has thoughtfully supplied Parish with an implant based on the ones the prisoners get, only hers suppresses her latent powers.
<Kae> You've hooked me so far Dar. Keep going.
<Crista> Yeah. Me, too. <g>
<@SLViehl> what's giving you trouble with it, dar?
<dar> She knows she'll get out of prison, only she's not prive to all details yet (nor am I, LOL). So, the deal is, Parish is my little bitchy person who is going to face down God to find out why She has changed. Cellmate may go along as sidekick part of the time.
<dar> i'm not sure where to go next with it.
<@SLViehl> Give Parish an excellent reason to escape.
<Kae> Ok, still reeling me in, Dar.
<Crista> How does she faces down God? Does parish go to her or does she come to parish in the prison?
<dar> Something to go for or from, sheila?
<Kae> Where does she have to go to find God?
<@SLViehl> A direct threat to her, a conspiracy to kill all the prisoners, along those lines. She has to make a change in her circumstances, or the body count is going up
<dar> No, she has to get out of prison, I think, in order to find the other people who are aware of the change.
<@SLViehl> Parish needs an immediate goal as well as facing down God
<Crista> Also, do the ancient beings who used to use the breeding on burial ground that the prison is on play a part in helping her find God?
<dar> Unless of course, the prisoners are the ones who are aware of the changes and .....
<@SLViehl> oh, Lord, that's good -- the only ones who know are the convicts
<dar> Some of them are aware. yep. But not all. But no one on the outside knows.
<@SLViehl> And no one is going to listen to a bunch of prisoners, and the guards are deaf . . .
<dar> So she has to get them out. Reason enough to get out?
<Joel_A> And what if this change in God will have a negative impact on the universe? She needs to get out to tell someone...
<Kae> Does her implant help or hinder her goal?
<@SLViehl> Proof that God has changed is good -- but can their lives be in danger because they know? Is there some connective force with the change in God that doesn't want anyone to know?
<dar> And she has a link with Derri (actually a fraternal twin) but that link is severed by the implant. The implant is part of a subplot with Hunter to keep her from finding out about something waaaay smaller that he thinks is big.
<@SLViehl> Time -- dar, sorry, but we have Joel and Anne to go, I have to call it. Any last suggestions, comments for dar?
<dar> Probably, sheila. So far the only change I know about is a sort of insidious chaos.
<Robert> Keep rolling and some of the answers may come up in the details, sometimes I do deductive plotting.
<@SLViehl> I'd give some urgency to the need to get the prisoners out. Not only for their knowledge, but for their continued existence.
<@SLViehl> Play with this one, dar, it's really good.
<Kae> This is also another story I want to read!
<dar> wow. thank you.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to dar for spell binding us all.

Joel, you're up, then Anne is next
<Joel_A> Similar to Robert: how do I re-energize myself in my weight-training/body-shaping programs?
<dar> How long have you been working out so far joel?
<@SLViehl> Drink a minimum of 8 glasses of chilled water, 8 ounces each, every day.
<@SLViehl> Cleanses the body. Hi Yvonne
<Joel_A> 2 years, dar
<Yvonne> hi
<Joel_A> hi, Yvonne.
<Joel_A> I drink a gallon, Sheila
<Robert> Any reason for it to be chilled instead of room temperature?
<Joel_A> Personally, I like cold water

<dar> A problem with it come up recently joel?
<@SLViehl> The body burns more calories warming it up in the stomach, Robert. Plus it's easier to drink cold.
<@SLViehl> Are you hitting a plateau, Joel?
<Joel_A> I'm not consistent. I used to weight training 4-6 times consistently, and cardio 3-5 times a week,.
<Kae> Perhaps changing types of workouts?
<@SLViehl> Then it's motivation?
<Joel_A> It's motivation.
<dar> Gotta buddy?
<Crista> What do you do for cardio?
<Joel_A> That's why I stated it's similar to Robert's question.
<@SLViehl> Hmmm....you need a workout paycheck every week. A reward you give yourself for making your goals.
<Joel_A> No buddy, dar. Hard to, since I work out in the afternoon for 2 hours
<Joel_A> That's interesting, Sheila.
<dar> you might be surprised.
<Joel_A> Crista, step aerobics.
<@SLViehl> If I do all my PT and swim every day, I get to buy a CD or a new book of my choice. That's my reward to myself for staying on goal.
<dar> yeah. Good thing to pay yourself.
<Joel_A> Hmmm. That would be easy to track, too. What do I like as a reward...?
<Yvonne> what do you pay yourself with if you don't have any money?
<Crista> You thought about trying something else for cardio? Maybe you arelosing motivation because you are bored?
<Joel_A> OH! I'll allow myself to sleep in at the end of the week!
<@SLViehl> Try to make it something you really like but never have time to do. If you don't have money, that can be a nice hot bubble bath

<@SLViehl> Sleep in until noon on Sunday
<dar> Time out. Do nothing, or something you wouldn't otherwise take time for.
<Joel_A> Actually, Crista, I LOVE the cardio part. Other types, like bikes, bore me.
<@SLViehl> You can also borrow movies and books from the library, if money's tight.
<Crista> Ahhh. Okay. <g>
<Joel_A> Allow myself a day at the beach. Shirtless

<Joel_A> Ooops! Don't have that body yet!
<Kae> Instead of a stationary bike, my friend works out on a rower.
<Crista> Woo! Shirtless days at the beach are fun! <g>
<@SLViehl> I'm seeing you as *Anne_Marble* here, Anne
<Anne_Marble> WHoops, if you have only one person's name clicked, you send the message to the individual.
<Joel_A> A rower? Hmmm. i'll have to check my gym....
<@SLViehl> I was wondering if Anne was just being shy . . .
<Joel_A> LOL. Anne? Shy?

<Anne_Marble> OK, for people with no money... You could always download free books from Project Gutenberg as a reward. ;->
<Anne_Marble> :->
<Joel_A> OOOHHH! That's an interesting idea....
<@SLViehl> Or Baen has some on their site, for you SF lovers
<dar> I love rowing. I started as part of physical therapy and just got my own machine.
<Anne_Marble> Ooooh, Baen. Free Hollies
<dar> Don't forget Annenberg. (it still exists, doesn't it?)
<Joel_A> I tried the technique of having mags and books around w/models who look like my goal for myself. but that's beginning to burn out of me.
<Joel_A> Hmmm. Should I hire a personal trainer again?
<@SLViehl> You need something that you can look forward to, Joel. Not something that intimidates you.
<dar> And don't forget! dar sometimes has rare/out of print books for free.
<@SLViehl> I have a physical therapist who keeps threatening to take me salsa dancing. He's a great motivator.
<Robert> Pictures of how you looked before you started any of it might be more motivational. And people who look worse than you.
<Joel_A> LOL. I'm hardly intimidated by those models, Sheila. I grew up looking like a tall geek and know myself well enough

<Joel_A> LOL, Sheila. Salsa dancing is fun... hmmmm.
<Anne_Marble> Besides, Joel, I'll bet those magazines can be pretty scary when you notice half of them have ads for gay porn. ;-> Heck, several of them are practically gay soft porn.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments to motivate Joel?
<Joel_A> Thanks, y'all. Great ideas!
<Anne_Marble> Fencing is good cardio exercise, isn't it? I've forgotten. Anyway, it's one way to vary the routine, try something cool like fencing.
<dar> Do it to live longer and write longer!
<@SLViehl> Make yourself a paycheck, Joel. That's my best advice. Something you really like.
<Robert> Snap cool photos of yourself in a loincloth wearing a sword or swinging one so that the rest of us can sketch from you!
<Joel_A> Dancing? I could hit the clubs....
<Joel_A> LOL, Robert! I'll make sure to pump up that day

<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all for great ideas. Anne, you're up, then Yvonne, do you have a question for the group?
<Anne_Marble> "Here, Joel, put on these leather breaches."
<Joel_A> LOL, Anne

<Robert> I wasn't kidding, I could use photo references and you're doing the workouts!
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Joel_A> (bows to Robert, grinning)
<Yvonne> not really, just wanted to see what everyone was talking about
<@SLViehl> no problem. Anne, you ready?
<Anne_Marble> OK.... :-> Eons ago, I wrote an SF novel about a peacemaker. Lara travels from planet to planet and tries to prevent wars. It was lots of fun, and I've often thought of rewriting it. But lately, I realized that the SF content wasn't a big element. it was just a framework.
<@SLViehl> and no whispering to me! lol
<Anne_Marble> So I thought of redoing it as a fantasy! She can bring peace to elves and orcs. Only the elves will be based on my fave character, an arrogant noble from a world where assassination considered almost a form of government.
<@SLViehl> nice setup
<Robert> I like that!
<Kae> I'd be interested in it as either SF or fantasy.
<Joel_A> What's the story?
<Anne_Marble> Does this sound like something that could work? I mean, the SF was just an excuse. The fantasy setting might make more sense.
<@SLViehl> would make a great SF adventure, too
<Joel_A> What's the story?
<Robert> It sure would in either context.
<Joel_A> What's the story?
<Anne_Marble> She tries to prevent war between two major worlds. The catch is that there's a conspiracy she doesn't know about yet.
<Joel_A> Ahhh.
<@SLViehl> A peacemaker who comes to a world the operates on the concept of rule by assassination. I love it, personally.
<@SLViehl> the=that
<Anne_Marble> The other catch is that one of the Representatives (not the assassination dude) is her lover. And she later learns that the assassination dude is sort of in love with her.
<@SLViehl> She'd be busy than a cat in a roomful of rocking chairs.
<Kae> whooee, she'd have lots of .. LOL Sheila!
<Joel_A> Lots of conflict, here: the people may not want her "interfering" in what they consider normal for their society.
<Emily> Yes, I think either one would work, but I find that SF fans sometimes get persnickety with SF that doesn't have a strong base in science; fantasy, not so much.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that. :-> I hadn't originally set it on their planet, but it would be better there. And she is good at self-defense.
<Joel_A> Does she speak their language?
<Anne_Marble> Yup. She might be a bit of a Mary Sue. She speaks several languages, fights like a demon, and has two handsome men in love with her. ;->
<@SLViehl> And think of what their reaction would be to a visiting dignitary who only wants everyone to stop killing each other and talk.
<Robert> Makes for plenty of action, Anne!
<Joel_A> WHY is there a conspiracy against her?
<Robert> Especially if she has to diplomatically disarm them just to try to make the point in the dueling witticisms.
<@SLViehl> Give her a couple of flaws, even her out for the reader, Anne
<Anne_Marble> Meanwhile, the assassination dude's evil cousin is trying to take over the organization of peacemakers and turn it into a force to help him conquer stuff.
<Kae> How does she get involved?
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, when I reread her scenes recently, I wanted to throttle her. She knew everything. I wrote it when I was about 20. :->
<Robert> I see some potential Retief weirdness, you ever read Retief?
<@SLViehl> You could transform that into a fantasy alliance between the evil elven faction and the evil peacemaker faction who sent her to the planet to stir things up.
<Joel_A> Flaws: is she empathic about other people's culture? Or she has no prob enforcing what she considers is "correct" behavior?
<Joel_A> I tried, Robert. The Golden People or something.
<Robert> Maybe she's that young and doesn't always see it when people are taking advantage of her. Consider more handsome men after her, some not having her good in mind at all...
<Anne_Marble> In the original version, she was kinda bossy about culture, but I want to change that.
<Robert> Change it slowly in the course of the story, let her walk in naive and learn in progress.
<@SLViehl> The thing about some pacifists is, they have a hard time seeing anyone else's side. They become crusader, and crusaders can inflict unconscious harm on the innocent
<Anne_Marble> She's part of a group of peacemakers. She was requested to intervene. The evil elves asked her to intervene. It's part of the conspiracy -- distract her here while doing other things in her world.
<Joel_A> Maybe into a character diametrically different in view; kinda like a Democrat vs Republican POVs. Both have valid and ridiculous viewpoints.
<@SLViehl> whoever is caught between the crusader and the evil faction. The people who depend on assassinations for their income, or to keep their families safe, for example
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, start her out young, good idea. Sort of like Clarice Thingie in Silence of the Lambs.
<Kae> Ok, she's young. She makes mistakes.
<Joel_A> being young: there had better be a good reason, then, for the org to let her deal with this issue. I don't see a smart org doing so.
<Anne_Marble> She would have to know not to try to force huge changes, though. Then again, when I was young, I didn't realize grasp that yet!
<@SLViehl> And have some fun with that Assassin's world. Imagine the businesses that would crop up in a society that advocates executions.
<@SLViehl> Ace is the Place for the Helpful Uzi Man.
<Joel_A> and they would not be happy with peacekeepers, sheila.
<Robert> rofl Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Grocery stores would stock poisons
<@SLViehl> Advertising, oh God, lol -- "Tired of that nosy mother-in-law of yours? Call Orkin"
<Kae> rofl
<Anne_Marble> This society hands over young nobles to an older relative who teaches them to kill. :-< My anti-villain's uncle would get him to befriend people, then force him to kill them. Oh, and he was around 10 at the time!
<Anne_Marble> Oh, and Lara is immune to most poisons. ;-> Boy will their faces be red when they try to poison her, and she ends up a loud drunk instead...
<@SLViehl> Imagine getting a "D" in torture and maiming.
<@SLViehl> Anne this sounds great
<Robert> Make sure she does really embarrassing things when that drunk.
<@SLViehl> You have got to work on this one

<Joel_A> Real Life: in the LA Times, in Japanese, there is a person whom you can hire to break up people.
<@SLViehl> You can do it here, too. Little Havana, $25
<Kae> oh my
<Anne_Marble> This will be fun. :->
<Anne_Marble> Do you mean physically? Or break up couples?
<Joel_A> Sorry. In Japan. If you're tired of your wife, you hire this person, who will seduce the wife and take pics. The wife will be so ashamed that she'll file for a divorce
<Emily> Break up couples. When you want to break up with your boyfriend but can't tell him to his face.
<Anne_Marble> That could work as a plot device...
<Joel_A> EXACTLY, Emily. This is Japanese culture, where arguing face to face is a big NO NO....v
<@SLViehl> So put a spin on that for your plot, Anne. The guy you hire to take care of your assassinations for you while you're on vacation . . .
<Emily> It's a little extreme, but I can see how the culture encourages it.
<@SLViehl> One biology note, I'd have these people reproduce like rabbits.
<@SLViehl> They'd need a continuous supply of population.

<Anne_Marble> I'm thinking the people in the anti-villain's society are predominantly bisexual, because sometimes, you use manipulation (emotional, sexual) to get your way. And so they become comfortable with either sex...
<Emily> I've been trying for almost a semester to squirm out of my advisor's classes, but I just can't straight-out say any variation of "You're a crack monkey. I'm not going to take five hours of classes a week for no credit."
<Joel_A> You can hire this person to get some fired from a job, stop your teen from seeing someone you don't like, etc. They will do anything except kill
<Emily> (This is in Japan, BTW, in case that seemed really irrelevant.)
<@SLViehl> Don't explain, Emily. Look sad or mysterious and say it's for extremely personal reasons.

<Anne_Marble> Hey, maybe their society doesn't have traditional assassinations, they have character assassins instead. ;->
<@SLViehl> People who make others into pariahs? Interesting
<Anne_Marble> In some societies, that would be just as important.
<Kae> ooo, in songs, or poetry
<@SLViehl> And time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> (puff puff puff)
<Joel_A> OH! That would be good, Anne. Not only different, but makes the peacekeeper's job a LOT more complicated. Her fighting skills would be useless.
<Robert> Don't offend a cartoonist.

Quote from a friend who was one...
<@SLViehl> This sounds like fun, Anne, I would definitely work on it. Whichever way you go.
<@SLViehl> I like the people assassins, myself.

<Anne_Marble> BTW Sheila doesn't Carol Cushman of Locus sometimes review romance and romantic SF & fantasy? If she's still there?...
<Kae> I'd like to read it either way, Anne
<@SLViehl> I don't know, Anne, I stopped subscribing to Locus about a year ago
<Anne_Marble> Character assassination would be more fun to write, though. LIke a Regency written in blood.
<@SLViehl> I think she wrote up Holly's Memory of Fire, who told me that . . .
<@SLViehl> ??? Getting old, can't remember.
<@SLViehl> All right folks, thanks for another terrific Friday night.
<Anne_Marble> How fun it would be if she had to question whether the anti-villain really did love her or was just trying to seduce her.
<dar> Thanks sheila, everyone!
<@SLViehl> there you go
<Anne_Marble> Or if he really wants her boyfriend. ;->
<Joel_A> night, Sheila. Great job.
<Kae> lol
<Anne_Marble> Thank you Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Robert, I definitely lost the transcript for this one, so if you can cc me a copy I'd appreciate it.
<Joel_A> LOL, Anne. Hmmm. But that would be different....
<Kae> Thank you, Sheila! It's hard to believe we're done already.
<Robert> I always do.

>^..^<
<@SLViehl> Y'all were inspired tonight.

<dar> dar got unshy! dar got unshy!
<@SLViehl> {hugging Robert} My scribe.

<Kae> yay dar!
<Joel_A> Night, y'all. Time to go out for...of all things...Japanese food

<Joel_A> wb, dar
<@SLViehl> I'm proud of you, dar.
<Robert> Purr (bash)
<@SLViehl> Night Joel
<Joel_A> Great job, roberto. I'll send you the pic when I'm ready

<Anne_Marble> Wow, it's just past elevenses
<@SLViehl> I'
<Joel_A> past eighties

<dar> Wanna compete on rowing, joel? <G>
<Anne_Marble> Joel, I'll send you the leather breeches and breechcloth...
<@SLViehl> I'm going to feed the kittens now -- see you at Holly's, night all!
<Joel_A> (bows to Sheila)
<Kae> Night Sheila
<Anne_Marble> (Note to self: Rush out and buy lots of chamois at the auto shop.)
<Kae> !
<Joel_A> If you can pull 160 lbs for 3 sets of 10, dar

<Robert> See you at holly's! Soon as I mail this transcript!
<@SLViehl> Take care -- bye!
<Anne_Marble> Bye!
<Joel_A> thanks, Anne! My waist is 34 ....
<Kae> Night all!
<dar> I am 160 lbs, do it uphill, my dear.
<Anne_Marble> (turns green with envy)
<Joel_A> LOL, dar. Coolness!
<Joel_A> uh, anne. are you okay?
<Kae> rofl
<Anne_Marble> Oh, never mind...
<Joel_A> Did I miss something...?
<Anne_Marble> My waist has its own zip code. :-<
<Kae> Age and weight, Joel. Tricky for the female population.
<dar> soda run
<Kae> brb
<Robert> must get coffee...
<Crista> Hehehe. Now I'm getting excited about writing the next chapter in the WIP. <g>
<Emily> And I'm getting excited about revisions.
<Crista> How long is your novel, Emily?
<Emily> Only 60,000 words. I plan to expand it in the second draft.
<Crista> <nods>
<Anne_Marble> I am visiting my parents. I came here early because tomorrow, there's a Paper Show in York. :->
<@SLViehl> back
<@SLViehl> Paper? (ears perk up)
<Crista> What kind of paper?
<@SLViehl> exotic paper?
<Kae> bak, what kind of paper?
<@SLViehl> rice paper? Silk?
<Anne_Marble> Books, old magazines, prints, collectable paper, postcards, pulp magazines...
<Emily> Sounds wonderful.
<Crista> Oooooo.
<Anne_Marble> Yessss. (drooling already)
<@SLViehl> I want to go stay with Anne's parents too . . . .whine
<Kae> ooooo
<Joel_A> "He tired to stand up..." Yikes! And this got published???
<Anne_Marble> But they make sure you eat your veggies and ask if you've cleaned your house.
<@SLViehl> All the time, Joel. All the time. lol
<Anne_Marble> What are you reading, Joel? :-<
<@SLViehl> Better than my mom. She comes over to check.

<Joel_A> Some samples of novels, Anne.
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom/whatever you need want or desire
<Kae> Hmmph. My mother lives with me. Can't get away with anything.
<Joel_A> As a (former) technical writer, I find it very easy to get knocked out of stories if they have blatant errors in them.
<@SLViehl> (pats Kae on back)
<Crista> I need, want, desire a new apartment. <scowls at her downstairs neighbors>
<Anne_Marble> Pitter patter pitter patter....
<Kae> (thanks, Sheila, I needed that)
<@SLViehl> Okay folks, are we ready to get back to work?
<Kae> Yep!
<Joel_A> Let's party, Sheila!
<Crista> I ammm!
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<@SLViehl> This is a writer/reader question -- I want to hit both sides of your brain. dar, if you've got a question, you're up after me.
<Anne_Marble> (Hsssst, soda opens)
<@SLViehl> My editor read Blade Dancer and wrote her thoughts on it to me today.
<@SLViehl> Basically? She loved it. "Damn fine book" she says
<@SLViehl> She never says this about anything I write.
<@SLViehl> So I think I've got a winner, and I want to back this one with everything I've got in my promo budget
<@SLViehl> That's $3K a year, btw
<@SLViehl> My question to you guys is, as writers, what's the one thing you'd do to promote a book, and as readers, what makes you want to buy a book?
<Anne_Marble> Mostly, what I know is how not to promote a book, and you already know how to comport yourself. ;->
<Kae> The one thing that makes me buy a book is the first page or two I read after I read the back copy.
<Crista> To promote: I'd make a great website and then advertise that. As a reader? I mostly go with word of mouth. If I have a freind that likes a book, I usually try it out.
<Anne_Marble> Some people on AARlist have said they don't really buy books because of bookmarks, magnets, etc., even if they collect them. (However, I do like Nora Roberts' yearly calendar magnet, but it must be expensive.)
<Emily> About 90% of the books I buy are because of word of mouth.
<@SLViehl> Thank you ma'am
<Robert> Sheila, what I'd do if I had a $3k budget would be to have a very good radio ad made up and run it on radio stations late at night. In college towns where people read.
<@SLViehl> I was thinking of getting $3K in books and getting them out there somehow
<Joel_A> as a writer: get the best damn artist I can get and someone to write a great blurb on the back cover....
<@SLViehl> because I believe in word of mouth over any other promo
<Anne_Marble> Is there a way to copy review quotes on doo-hickeys?
<Robert> That's the other thing. Give away copies to gossips. Sheila's already the best blurber I know, that' free not on budget.
<Anne_Marble> Or quotes from readers, reviewers, other writers?
<Emily> Back-cover, cover art, and the first two paragraphs are pretty important, if I'm in a bookstore.
<@SLViehl> I don't want to do the postcard/bookmark thing, that doesn't work
<@SLViehl> I've asked to get in on cover art and cover copy (crossing fingers)
<Joel_A> as a reader: I'm very visual. Covers attract me. Same with an interesting back-cover blurb. Oh! And the FIRST page of the story in the book.
<Anne_Marble> Did you ever read "Unleashing the Ideavirus," Sheila? It's for free.

<Anne_Marble> (OK, your publisher might disagree with that method...)
<@SLViehl> No, I don't want to do any tricky stuff -- that usually backfires.

<Robert> I am not kidding. Babylon 5 fan clubs would like your style
<@SLViehl> Okay, these were all great ideas, thanks folks
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, but people will start writing StarDoc slash.

<@SLViehl> oops, sorry dar, go ahead
<@SLViehl> Love the prison already
<Kae> ooh sounds chilling already Dar
<Joel_A> Nice, dar. Not

<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all for great ideas. Anne, you're up, then Yvonne, do you have a question for the group?
<Anne_Marble> "Here, Joel, put on these leather breaches."
<Joel_A> LOL, Anne

<Robert> I wasn't kidding, I could use photo references and you're doing the workouts!
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Joel_A> <bows to Robert, grinning>
<Yvonne> not really, just wanted to see what everyone was talking about
<@SLViehl> no problem. Anne, you ready?
<Anne_Marble> OK.... :-> Eons ago, I wrote an SF novel about a peacemaker. Lara travels from planet to planet and tries to prevent wars. It was lots of fun, and I've often thought of rewriting it. But lately, I realized that the SF content wasn't a big element. it was just a framework.
<@SLViehl> and no whispering to me! lol
<Anne_Marble> So I thought of redoing it as a fantasy! She can bring peace to elves and orcs. Only the elves will be based on my fave character, an arrogant noble from a world where assassination considered almost a form of government.
<@SLViehl> nice setup
<Robert> I like that!
<Kae> I'd be interested in it as either SF or fantasy.
<Joel_A> What's the story?
<Anne_Marble> Does this sound like something that could work? I mean, the SF was just an excuse. The fantasy setting might make more sense.
<@SLViehl> would make a great SF adventure, too
<Joel_A> What's the story?
<Robert> It sure would in either context.
<Joel_A> What's the story?
<Anne_Marble> She tries to prevent war between two major worlds. The catch is that there's a conspiracy she doesn't know about yet.
<Joel_A> Ahhh.
<@SLViehl> A peacemaker who comes to a world the operates on the concept of rule by assassination. I love it, personally.
<@SLViehl> the=that
<Anne_Marble> The other catch is that one of the Representatives (not the assassination dude) is her lover. And she later learns that the assassination dude is sort of in love with her.
<@SLViehl> She'd be busy than a cat in a roomful of rocking chairs.
<Kae> whooee, she'd have lots of .. LOL Sheila!
<Joel_A> Lots of conflict, here: the people may not want her "interfering" in what they consider normal for their society.
<Emily> Yes, I think either one would work, but I find that SF fans sometimes get persnickety with SF that doesn't have a strong base in science; fantasy, not so much.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that. :-> I hadn't originally set it on their planet, but it would be better there. And she is good at self-defense.
<Joel_A> Does she speak their language?
<Anne_Marble> Yup. She might be a bit of a Mary Sue. She speaks several languages, fights like a demon, and has two handsome men in love with her. ;->
<@SLViehl> And think of what their reaction would be to a visiting dignitary who only wants everyone to stop killing each other and talk.
<Robert> Makes for plenty of action, Anne!
<Joel_A> WHY is there a conspiracy against her?
<Robert> Especially if she has to diplomatically disarm them just to try to make the point in the dueling witticisms.
<@SLViehl> Give her a couple of flaws, even her out for the reader, Anne
<Anne_Marble> Meanwhile, the assassination dude's evil cousin is trying to take over the organization of peacemakers and turn it into a force to help him conquer stuff.
<Kae> How does she get involved?
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, when I reread her scenes recently, I wanted to throttle her. She knew everything. I wrote it when I was about 20. :->
<Robert> I see some potential Retief weirdness, you ever read Retief?
<@SLViehl> You could transform that into a fantasy alliance between the evil elven faction and the evil peacemaker faction who sent her to the planet to stir things up.
<Joel_A> Flaws: is she empathic about other people's culture? Or she has no prob enforcing what she considers is "correct" behavior?
<Joel_A> I tried, Robert. The Golden People or something.
<Robert> Maybe she's that young and doesn't always see it when people are taking advantage of her. Consider more handsome men after her, some not having her good in mind at all...
<Anne_Marble> In the original version, she was kinda bossy about culture, but I want to change that.
<Robert> Change it slowly in the course of the story, let her walk in naive and learn in progress.
<@SLViehl> The thing about some pacifists is, they have a hard time seeing anyone else's side. They become crusader, and crusaders can inflict unconscious harm on the innocent
<Anne_Marble> She's part of a group of peacemakers. She was requested to intervene. The evil elves asked her to intervene. It's part of the conspiracy -- distract her here while doing other things in her world.
<Joel_A> Maybe into a character diametrically different in view; kinda like a Democrat vs Republican POVs. Both have valid and ridiculous viewpoints.
<@SLViehl> whoever is caught between the crusader and the evil faction. The people who depend on assassinations for their income, or to keep their families safe, for example
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, start her out young, good idea. Sort of like Clarice Thingie in Silence of the Lambs.
<Kae> Ok, she's young. She makes mistakes.
<Joel_A> being young: there had better be a good reason, then, for the org to let her deal with this issue. I don't see a smart org doing so.
<Anne_Marble> She would have to know not to try to force huge changes, though. Then again, when I was young, I didn't realize grasp that yet!
<@SLViehl> And have some fun with that Assassin's world. Imagine the businesses that would crop up in a society that advocates executions.
<@SLViehl> Ace is the Place for the Helpful Uzi Man.
<Joel_A> and they would not be happy with peacekeepers, sheila.
<Robert> rofl Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Grocery stores would stock poisons
<@SLViehl> Advertising, oh God, lol -- "Tired of that nosy mother-in-law of yours? Call Orkin"
<Kae> rofl
<Anne_Marble> This society hands over young nobles to an older relative who teaches them to kill. :-< My anti-villain's uncle would get him to befriend people, then force him to kill them. Oh, and he was around 10 at the time!
<Anne_Marble> Oh, and Lara is immune to most poisons. ;-> Boy will their faces be red when they try to poison her, and she ends up a loud drunk instead...
<@SLViehl> Imagine getting a "D" in torture and maiming.
<@SLViehl> Anne this sounds great
<Robert> Make sure she does really embarrassing things when that drunk.
<@SLViehl> You have got to work on this one

Quote from a friend who was one...
<@SLViehl> This sounds like fun, Anne, I would definitely work on it. Whichever way you go.
<@SLViehl> I like the people assassins, myself.

>^..^<
<@SLViehl> Y'all were inspired tonight.

<dar> dar got unshy! dar got unshy!
<@SLViehl> {hugging Robert} My scribe.

<Kae> yay dar!
<Joel_A> Night, y'all. Time to go out for...of all things...Japanese food

<Joel_A> wb, dar
<@SLViehl> I'm proud of you, dar.
<Robert> Purr <bash>
<@SLViehl> Night Joel
<Joel_A> Great job, roberto. I'll send you the pic when I'm ready

<Anne_Marble> Wow, it's just past elevenses
<@SLViehl> I'
<Joel_A> past eighties

<dar> Wanna compete on rowing, joel? <G>
<Anne_Marble> Joel, I'll send you the leather breeches and breechcloth...
<@SLViehl> I'm going to feed the kittens now -- see you at Holly's, night all!
<Joel_A> <bows to Sheila>
<Kae> Night Sheila
<Anne_Marble> (Note to self: Rush out and buy lots of chamois at the auto shop.)
<Kae> !
<Joel_A> If you can pull 160 lbs for 3 sets of 10, dar