<CatherineM> hello, I'm new
<Aby> oh... six hours! that's a lot !
<@SLViehl> Welcome, Catherine
<Sarah> Hi Catherine!
<Gayle> welcome catherine
<@SLViehl> And welcome everyone to Everything You Wanted to Know About Pro SF Writing
<Joel_A> six? what did you do there that required that long of a workout?
<@SLViehl> I'm your host, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLViehl> I'm trying to get my knee out of a steel brace, and I have to build up my leg muscles.
<Joel_A> AH!
<Yvonne> ouch
<CatherineM> ouch
<Aby> ouch
<@SLViehl> Tonight's session is an open Q&A -- ask anything you want, and I'll try to answer it.
<@SLViehl> To give you some background:
<@SLViehl> I'm the author of a 5 book SF series, and one standalone. I'm negotiating a contract for 3, possibly 4 more SF standalones
<@SLViehl> I've been pursuing a professional career for fifteen years, and have lived exclusively off my writing income for the last two and a half years
<@SLViehl> I've dealt with three major print publishers and have probably had contact with everyone else, including the SF mag market
<@SLViehl> So that's the basics about me. I'm going to open up the floor, ask any question you like.
<Yvonne> What are editors buying these days?
<@SLViehl> In SF, Yvonne?
<Yvonne> SF and Fantasy
<Wolvie> is sf the big genre these days?
<@SLViehl> In SF, publishers are going for single title, adventure or hi-tech stories with fast pacing and original plotting. Media tie-ins, which take up 50% of the publishing slots in the SF genre now, are also extremely popular
<Aby> what do you mean by media tie-ins?
<darkenc> hel-lo everybody
<@SLViehl> In Fantasy, there is a bit more variance in what I'm seeing publishers buy. Historic epic type fantasies are starting to rise in popularity
<@SLViehl> welcome darkenc
<@SLViehl> and Wolvie, hi
<Wolvie> hey sheila
<@SLViehl> Fantasy is also going in other, new directions, away from the traditional Quest-type novels.
<@SLViehl> Media tie-ins, Aby are books based on popular TV or movies, like Star Wars, Buffy, Star Trek, etc.
<Wolvie> how necessary is it to come up with something original nowadays? (as if thats possible)
<@SLViehl> Fantasy is the most exciting genre to be writing for these days, but there is plenty of competition, too
<@SLViehl> You might not like my answer, Wolvie, but here it is: stop thinking/writing like a fan.
<CatherineM> What sort of "new directions" do you mean?
<Joel_A> Examples, Sheila?
<Wolvie> and instead write like...?
<@SLViehl> Fantasy quest-type trolls and witches and spells type novels have leveled out. There is a solid market for them, but it's not growing. So publishers are looking for new talent with new ideas.
<@SLViehl> Wolvie, the big secret about my success is this: I don't like to read SF
<@SLViehl> Prior to being published, I read maybe 12 SF books in my whole life.
<@SLViehl> So I came in not worshipping anyone and not trying to write like anyone published in SF.
<Wolvie> so what did u draw from for your ideas?
<@SLViehl> Myself -- my vision of the future, what I liked, what appealed to me.
<Wolvie> and how did you know you were doing something fresh.....or didn't you care?
<@SLViehl> I wrote StarDoc as a joke.
<Yvonne> Isn't that a cardinal sin? Not reading in the genre you're writing in.
<@SLViehl> I think you should read books from the genre you'd like to write in, Yvonne, but you have to set aside the fan inside and draw on your own ideas
<@SLViehl> You should always know what's being published. That was my mistake in getting into SF. I had no idea what it was about.
<Wolvie> but isn't it best if you write about what you'd like to see as a fan of that genre?
<@SLViehl> So I had to take a crash-course in SF over the last three years, just to catch up.
<Joel_A> What do you think about James White's stuff?
<@SLViehl> No. Fans should be fans. Writers should be writers. In my opinion
<darkenc> If i may, i think that the idea for stories is without genre. Gene is the particular instrament(?) that is chosen to tell that story.
<@SLViehl> My agent made me read James White after everyone started comparing me to him. He was a very classy guy, but we have very little in common. Also, he was not a medical professional.
<@SLViehl> Genre is just a section of shelves in a bookstore, and how publishers promote you.
<Joel_A> Changing the subject: Sheila, What is your writing day and week like?
<@SLViehl> What you write should come from you, your experiences, your imagination, and your energy.
<Wolvie> so is the traditional path of getting published first in magazines and then a novel worth pursuing, or should you just go for the novel first?
<@SLViehl> My writing day starts at 6:30am, and ends around 2am, seven days a week. I write a new book every six weeks now.
<CatherineM> You're a bit stuck if your ideas and imagination don't fit what people are looking for though, aren't you?
<Joel_A> Approximate page and/or wordcount you strive for, Sheila?
<darkenc> now that's some writing...lol
<@SLViehl> Wolvie, I've heard that's a legitimate way to break into the market, but mostly I see a lot of writers publishing short stories and no novels when they go that route.
<Sarah> Catherine> But if you're writing what's never been done before, you may BE the next big thing people are looking for. <g>
<CatherineM> That's the plan :), Sarah
<@SLViehl> What people are looking for is a great story, Catherine. If you write consistently great stories, you'll get published.
<Wolvie> why that hectic a schedule Sheila?
<Joel_A> @Catherine: You may find yourself with a loyal and niche audience. Nothing wrong with that.
<@SLViehl> And when I say great stories, I don't mean well-written. I mean great -- something that grabs the reader and shakes them up and doesn't let them go and leaves them wanting more.
<Wolvie> so the story is the thing, not your ability to craft it?
<@SLViehl> I write in two, going on three genres now -- romance, SF, and either fantasy or mystery (depending on what I sell, maybe both)
<Yvonne> craft can be fixed
<Joel_A> What are some of the major difference you find between writing your romance and sf novels.
<@SLViehl> If you can't craft the story, you can't tell it, Wolvie
<Joel_A> craft can be learned
<Joel_A> like "he tired to stand up" to "he tried to stand up."
<@SLViehl> I can't push the envelope as much with romance as I can with SF, Joel. Romance is still a very traditional genre.
<Wolvie> ok, but what I meant is its the quality of the story that counts, not your skill as a writer....
<@SLViehl> It's not an either/or, Wolvie. You need both
<Wolvie> is traditional "Harelequin" type romance still popular?
<Joel_A> I would assume there a minimum standard. Like avoiding too many passive scenes, info dumps, etc.
<Yvonne> although a lot of bad writing does seem to get published
<Joel_A> Sheila, What are some of your replies to folks when they ask, "we should collaborate. I have this wonderful idea. You can write it and we'll split the money."
<Joel_A> LOL. That's SO true!
<@SLViehl> Harlequin is global, and because of their distribution, they are still the top romance publisher.
<darkenc> I think craft and story is like an actor and script...for it to be a blockbuster it helps if both are great
<Sarah> Have you heard anything positive/negative about Ace as a publisher?
<@SLViehl> Thank you for thinking of me, but I don't do collaborations. (Then I make the sign of the cross, Joel) <g>
<Joel_A> LOL, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Ace has a very good rep in the market, Sarah. I've also heard only good things about their editorial and production crews
<Wolvie> damn there goes my idea of a great collaberation with Sheila to break into the market!!!
<Joel_A> How about Wizards of the Coast, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> I resigned from SFWA over the handling of the WotC scandal, Joel. I don't like publishers who violate copyright laws, so I can't recommend them.
<Yvonne> scandal?
<Joel_A> ??? Scandal?
<darkenc> the process to get noticed by WOC is bizzare...i don't even pretend to understand it myself
<@SLViehl> Don't collaborate with anyone, Wolvie -- save yourself some migraines.
<CatherineM> oooooh, scandal.
<Yvonne> do tell
<Sarah> Oh good. Going by what's on my shelf, my best chances are with Ace or DAW.
<@SLViehl> WotC decided to reprint ten years of some magazine on CD, and neglected to get the rights from the authors who were published in those mags.
<Yvonne> oops
<Wolvie> I collaborate with my wife regularly....oh....hold on, thats something alltogether different
<@SLViehl> Betsy Mitchell, as you know, is now heading up Del Rey, and I would recommend her highly to anyone looking for a publisher.
<Gayle> ouch!
<Joel_A> How was SFWA involved, Sheila?
<Sarah> <taking notes>
<Venus> <copies sarah's notes>
<@SLViehl> SFWA signed an agreement with WotC granting each author $100, without asking the authors. SFWA's board were basically co-conspirators
<Sarah> <passes notes to Venus>
<@SLViehl> I don't like people who violate author's rights, so I resigned. One month after I joined.
<Joel_A> OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!!!! Somebodies on the SFWA board must have gotten paid big bucks....
<Yvonne> are SFWA's board WOC writers?
<Venus> Thanks sarah <G>
<CatherineM> I hope the wirters concerned are suing the pants off said orgnaization
<@SLViehl> It is safe to say the WotC had some influence over the SFWA board at the time.
<Joel_A> How can the SFWA speak for the authors? Makes no sense.
<CatherineM> wirters=writers
<Venus> And that's disgusting Sheila. good for you.
<@SLViehl> They can't, Joel. They just took it upon themselves.
<Yvonne> now you can't hobnob with them an cons, oh well
<@SLViehl> I've always been careful not to be associated with anyone who violates the law, thus my resignation.
<Yvonne> an = at
<@SLViehl> That's okay, they don't think too highly of romance authors, Yvonne.
<Venus> all you need to do is know someone who knows someone to get into their parties at cons Yvonne
<Yvonne> snobs are they?
<Venus> And the oinly reason to do that is because they have the good booze <G>
<Wolvie> ok, as far as you know, if you were going to pick any genre to write in, based on popularity and payout, what would it be?
<Venus> Sheila> Can I ask a question about synopsis when wolvie is done?
<@SLViehl> SFWA is a good organization with unfortunate leadership. I'm not advocating avoiding them because they can help you, once you're published.
<@SLViehl> Romance, Wolvie. I make ten times the money writing romance as I do SF
<@SLViehl> Sure Venuce (hi!) go ahead
<Venus> I got into the conference room <jumps up and down>
<Wolvie> hmmmmmmm.....Im all of a sudden feeling my sensitive side soming out <G>
<@SLViehl> (This like never happens for poor Venus)
<Venus> If you're writing a synopsis about a novel set in a made-up or semi alien world
<@SLViehl> 58.4% of the adult fiction market in the US is romance, Wolvie
<@SLViehl> okay
<Venus> How much of that world do you think should be included in the synopsis?
<Joel_A> What do you do when you and your editor disagree on a change in your manuscript?
<@SLViehl> Enough to give the editor an idea of the most important elements of the world as it affects the characters, and the story, Venus.
<@SLViehl> I do what my editor says 99.9% of the time, Joel.
<Sarah> Example from your work, Sheila? (re: Venus's question)
<@SLViehl> I have a sterling reputation with editors as a result.
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's see: Rebel Ice, my new book, is set on an ice world.
<Venus> .
<@SLViehl> In the synopsis, I described the surface conditions (ice fields, methane lakes) and the atmosphere (high velocity winds that tear ships apart) and three of the indigenous life forms that play a part in the story (snow tigers, avian-type horses, rodent-type attackers)
<Venus> How long is the synopsis?
<@SLViehl> Each element has an impact on the story -- the surface and the atmosphere allow the natives to use the ice world as a storage depot for ships and armament, and the critters either help or hinder the characters in various ways
<@SLViehl> My SF synopses run 20-25 manuscript pages, double spaced
<@SLViehl> About one page per chapter is the general rule for me
<Venus> How long should it be for the initial query package? If you've never sold a novel before...
<Gayle> thank you...I was just going to ask about that
<darkenc> that sounds a bit big for a first timer
<Joel_A> What factors did you consider before you went to writing full-time two and a half years ago?
<@SLViehl> Check the guidelines of the publisher you wish to submit to, Venus, but I would say 10-15 pages is better for a rookie.
<@SLViehl> Financial, Joel?
<Venus> Thanks a lot! The synopsis thing is scaring me <G>
<Joel_A> Anything, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> I decided to give it my best shot because it was the best opportunity I had in my life. So I made some tough decisions.
<Yvonne> How long does it take from first acceptance for a book to hit the shelves?
<@SLViehl> For me, it took 14 months. StarDoc was accepted in November of 1998, published in January 2000
<Yvonne> is that average?
<@SLViehl> No, usually it takes between 18 to 24 months, from what I've heard from other writers.
<@SLViehl> You have to consider that right now, the schedule for 2003 books to be published is pretty much filled. So if your book got accepted next week, you might slip in at the end of 2003, or the beginning of 2004
<@SLViehl> Publishing is always 12 to 18 calendar months ahead on production.
<Joel_A> What's your view of self-published books? (NOT their writers)
<Joel_A> Specific, the ideas, the quality of prose, etc.
<darkenc> Sheila, do you have any books that are e-books
<@SLViehl> I think it's a matter of personal taste. I always wanted to be paid well for my work, so self-publishing was not an option.
<@SLViehl> I always submitted to the top editors at the best publishing houses. I wanted the best.
<Joel_A> Sorry, Sheila. I wasn't being clear. Have you read some of the self-published books? If so, what's your opinion about the ideas, the quality of prose, etc.
<@SLViehl> I actually self-published two e-books for my readers, as a Christmas gift give away on my web site in December, but those were for fun and total freebies.
<Wolvie> do u think that the success of the Harry Potter books will make it easier for new young adult/childrens writers to break into the market?
<@SLViehl> I really haven't read enough to give a concrete opinion on the whole category, Joel, sorry.
<Joel_A> <bows to Sheila>
<@SLViehl> Initially, Wolvie, it may. The problem is, kids are very tough to write for, and Harry Potter is a one-in-a-million thing.
<Joel_A> Right story, right place, right time....
<Sarah> Rowling got turned down by a LOT of publishers (who are kicking themselves now)
<@SLViehl> J.K. Rowling will be remembered as one of the most important writers of this era, whether the critics like it or not. And she deserves it.
<@SLViehl> Whatever you think of her work, she has touched an entire generation of children.
<@SLViehl> What writer can say that?
<Yvonne> Off topic: Do you have any examples of good supernatural romances?
<Joel_A> To get boys, especially, to read, is amazing in an age of techno-stuff....
<Wolvie> the thing is, as a writer, in my humble opinion, she's not amazing or anything....she just seems to have hit a nerve....
<@SLViehl> Yvonne, I like Jayne Castle's work (Jane Ann Krentz)
<Joel_A> OH! What ideas WON'T get pass an editor's wastebasket?
<@SLViehl> And I like Christine Feehan's vamp novels.
<Venus> ooo...good question Joel <G>
<Yvonne> <rapidly scribbling>
<@SLViehl> Something that excites a very jaded reader, Joel.
<Joel_A> Venus: people in general are very good at articulating what they dislike
<@SLViehl> Great pacing, original world building, strong characters
<Joel_A> ???
<@SLViehl> Razor-edged plotting
<Venus> LOL joel!
<Sarah> Yvonne: Tanya Huff, Wen Spencer (more SF), Julie Czerneda (very SF), Sharon Shinn.... Ooh, Emma Bull's War for the Oaks...
<Joel_A> Sheila, I'm asking what stories will get dumped. Sorry.
<@SLViehl> Oops, sorry, misread that
<@SLViehl> Fanfic of any kind
<@SLViehl> Thinly-veiled ripoffs of other writers' works
<Joel_A> Oh...no, I can understand why you misunderstood, Sheila. I'll be more direct next time
<@SLViehl> Slow paced narratives that start off with 75 pages of explanation
<Joel_A> LOL...zzzzzzzz....
<@SLViehl> Housekeeping writing. "He went to the door. He opened it. No one was there. He went back to the table."
<@SLViehl> No spark, no passion, no life in the story.
<@SLViehl> Anyone who has either contempt or no interest in the reader
<Venus> How would you define contempt for the reader?
<Yvonne> authorial intrusion?
<Joel_A> how about bad grammar. e.g., "He tired to stand up but fell down. He tried to stand on his legs, again."
<@SLViehl> Contempt to me comes across as sneeringly phrased info dumps. The "See How Intelligent I Am" writing
<@SLViehl> Joel, you just can't get past that phrase, can you? lol
<Venus> LOL...I know exactly what you mean. I stopped reading one of those books a few weeks ago
<@SLViehl> Thomas Harris sometimes expresses his contempt for humanity with such macabre hilarity that I wonder how he gets away with it.
<Joel_A> I can't believe that writer self-published something that blatant, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> If you want to see contempt for the reader, see Thomas Harris.
<Wolvie> you know i must say, I've NEVER not finished a book I've started
<darkenc> the last honor harrington book was one big info dump...lol
<Joel_A> LOL, Wolvie.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes writers fall so much in love with themselves that they forget they work for the reader
<Joel_A> And what about American Psycho? The very idea made my skin itch....
<@SLViehl> They forget who plops down seven bucks for the book. Not the editor, not their SFWA pals, not the people in their critique group. It's the common, ordinary, every day reader.
<@SLViehl> And if you have contempt for your reader, it shows in your work.
<@SLViehl> Never read American Psycho, but I ranked 1 spot above it on a Bestseller list in Denmark
<Joel_A> Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't visit Denmark for a while...
<@SLViehl> I love my readers. I want to thrill my readers.
<@SLViehl> I spend hours thinking of ways to entertain my readers.
<@SLViehl> What won't they expect? How can I get them to laugh, or cry, or catch their breath? That kind of thing.
<Joel_A> That's a good mantra, Sheila.
<darkenc> saw the movie (american psycho) i thought it was interesting
<Sarah> It worked, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Being a writer means being Scheherezade. Your life as an author depends on how well you entertain the reader
<Joel_A> Oh! That's an interesting image.
<Yvonne> do we lose our heads if we fail?
<@SLViehl> Why else would you do it? I mean, really?
<Venus> I'm not really sure - it's not because it will make me a millionaire
<@SLViehl> You lose the reader, Yvonne. And that is like dying, because they won't buy your books, and they won't hear your stories
<@SLViehl> Someone asked me why I write a couple of weeks ago, and it was hard to say, at first
<Joel_A> For me, I write stories that I would be looking for as a reader
<@SLViehl> I write professionally for the money
<@SLViehl> but I write because I want to tell you a story. As many of you as possible.
<darkenc> I like to explore the worlds that I create, but it's a journey that I like to share, otherwise why bother writing it down
<Joel_A> and what Sheila said about money as a secondary reason. Eventually
<@SLViehl> You can't go into this for art's sake. You have to be practical
<@SLViehl> Unless you're rich and someone will support you forever. Then you can be an artist.
<Yvonne> I've heard people say the exact opposite.
<@SLViehl> But if you're really lucky, you can do both.
<Wolvie> I think its the money that motivates me to take it so seriously....and the enjoyment that makes me do it in the first place
<@SLViehl> I should clarify and say you can't go into writing as a profession unless you're as practical as you are artistic.
<CatherineM> I guess I always wanted to reach people - to communicate something
<@SLViehl> or you have someone else manage your career and money
<@SLViehl> We each have our own visions. Storytelling is all about sharing those visions with others, going back to the storytellers around the fires in the caves
<Wolvie> ok sheila, i've never read any of your books (gasp). If i was gonna pick one, which one would you prefer me to start with?
<darkenc> thanks for this oppurtunity(?) Sheila, but food calls
<@SLViehl> Do you like SF or romance, Wolvie?
<@SLViehl> no problem, darkenc, thanks for being here
<Joel_A> night, darkenc.
<Wolvie> i actually don't read either....but SF if i had to pick
<Venus> goodnight darkenc!
<@SLViehl> StarDoc book one is the best place to start
<@SLViehl> Now, a question for the group -- is anyone submitting to a SF publisher at present?
<Joel_A> Not me.
<Venus> Not for novel-length fiction
<Wolvie> nope
<Sarah> I might mention that with the possible exceptions of McCaffrey and Sharon Shinn, Sheila is one of the two SF authors on my shelf...
<Sarah> Does Fantasy count?
<@SLViehl> Lord, I'm in good company
<Venus> But I might soon
<@SLViehl> Fantasy too
<Joel_A> Sharon Shinn?
<Sarah> I will be, as soon as Elysium is done.
<CatherineM> Not for a while yet...But SOON
<@SLViehl> The reason I ask is, if anyone wants to go over querying or putting together a proposal, I was going to put up another session after the Diana Gill conference
<Sarah> Joel> Technically SF, but reads a lot more like Fantasy. The Samaria trilogy.
<Venus> YES!
<Joel_A> thanks, Sarah.
<CatherineM> Yes, that would be great
<@SLViehl> I'm also going to ask Holly if I can post some examples of synopses and proposals on the Classroom board, stuff I've sold
<Venus> I will set time aside and bully my husband into letting me use his computer
<Sarah> I'd definitely show up for that, even though I'm not going to be done Elysuim for a while.
<Joel_A> Speaking of Diana Gill, do you think your editor would be willing to speak here, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> I can always ask, Joel, which one?
<Joel_A> That's right! How about both?
<@SLViehl> I'll see if I can do a session on the Sunday night after Diana's talk
<@SLViehl> I'll check with both, see what they say
<Sarah> Grrr... I have to miss that.
<Venus> his computer has no java issues <grrrr>
<Joel_A> <bows to Ms Sh...er...Sheila> Thanks!
<@SLViehl> Any other questions? Comments? Want to smack me? <g>
<Joel_A> Any last piece of advice for aspiring to be published authors?
<CatherineM> I was actually going tao ask you about how one goes about handling joint careers
<Sarah> Any updates to that "will there be a book after Eternity Row" scare?
<@SLViehl> Take chances, Joel, and have fun.
<Gayle> if you need a transcript...I've got one start at the beginning of the workshop
<@SLViehl> No updates yet, Sarah. Will keep you posted
<@SLViehl> Catherine, do you mean day job/writing?
<@SLViehl> Thanks, Gayle, you're a peach
<CatherineM> yes - sort of.
<Gayle> Your welcome
<CatherineM> How do you handle an editor and the demands of an external career?
<@SLViehl> Financially, you have to be practical -- work a day job that pays the bills but doesn't drain you to the point of being unable to write.
<@SLViehl> My editors both know I have a number of other-than-writing responsibilities -- I am basically a single parent to two kids in elementary school, which is like a full time job.
<@SLViehl> They will work with you as long as you keep the lines of communication open
<@SLViehl> Carol Stephenson, btw, our romance board moderator, is a full time attorney and is now writing for Silhouette on the side
<@SLViehl> She'd be someone to talk to about how to juggle the day job, Catherine
<@SLViehl> Hey dar, didn't see you slip in
<dar_> hiya!
<@SLViehl> If anyone has any other questions about pro SF writing, feel free to e-mail me: SLViehlworkshop@aol.com
<@SLViehl> I'd be happy to help in any way that I can, as long as I don't have to collaborate.
<Joel_A> thanks, Sheila!
<CatherineM> Thank you very much!
<Joel_A> thanks, sheila!
<Venus> Thanks Sheila!!
<Gayle> thank you sheila
<@SLViehl> And please take the opportunity to see Diana Gill next weekend if you can, it's a great chance to get with a real editor
<Wolvie> yeah, thanx sheila
<dar_> wow, thanks, sheila!
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Thanks to you all for being here. I had a great time. :)\
<Anne_Marble> Dang, missed.
<@SLViehl> Now I'm going to try to make a transcript, so goodnight, and take care