Writer's Think Tank #9 -- 3/29/02

<Sarah> Hey Sheila!
<BarGnat> Hi Sheila
<Robert> Hi, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Evening everyone!
<Kaelle> C'mon Sheila! Come on in. Cato leave her alone
<Scott> Hi Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Hey Scott welcome back
<Nathan> Yeah...and I hate longhand...and I can't even read my longhand...I have no idea how the heck I'm going to get this on the computer
<Nathan> Hi sheila
<Scott> Thanks, Sheila. Sorry I couldn't make it last week. Drill weekend
<@SLViehl> Hiya Nathan
<Nathan> ping?
<Anne_Marble> on phone with parents no capitals no punctuation sorry
<Nathan> Hi jim
<@SLViehl> Drill as in "Yes, Sergeant, No Sergeant."?
<Anne_Marble> threy habe been on vacation
<Robert> we won't let your parents know what you've been typing anne
<@SLViehl> (g)
<@Jim> Hi everyone!
<Anne_Marble> thanks
<@SLViehl> Hey Jim
<Robert> Hey Jim!
<Kaelle> Hey there!
<Scott> Pretty much. I'm a Civil War reenactor and my battalion was out drilling. Had to get ready for it.
<BarGnat> Hi Jim
<Anne_Marble> Phew, that's better.
<Robert> Way cool! I'm all for living in the past!
<@SLViehl> I bet Scott has WAY more fun than the rest of us on weekends.
<BarGnat> Colonel Washburn? Oh, my, yes
<Kaelle> Depends what you mean by fun, Sheila <g>
<@SLViehl> Dress in a uniform, go out to a field, kill people. My idea of fun.
<@SLViehl> lol
<BarGnat> heh
<BJ Steeves> Full Metal Jackets
<Scott> Well, pretend to kill people
<Yvonne> are you doing MM Sheila?
<Robert> Oooh yeah... for me it's earlier century than uniforms, but same general idea!
<Kaelle> I'd rather write about that than do it, Sheila. lol
<@SLViehl> You've never fired an M16, Kae. Got to try it once if you can
<Robert> $200 in equipment and I can start training for 9th Century Sniper with live targets!
<Kaelle> snarf
<Catherine> Heloooo
<BarGnat> Hi Catherine
<@SLViehl> welcome Catherine
<Robert> Purr, glad you made it, Catherine!
<Sarah> I get to clean tanks this weekend. :oP At least the lab has great acoustics. Though I'm not sure what the other researchers think of my one-woman G&S.
<Nathan> my idea of fun is very similiar sheila...Dress in a unifrom go out on a field see if I can stop a war with words
<Catherine> Yeah, I think IE crashed again - it was wierd
<BarGnat> hoo boy
<Nathan> WB Catherine
<Anne_Marble> I was a troublemaker on a recent discussion at All About Romance. ;->
<@SLViehl> Now that's even better, Nathan
<Robert> Catherine is THE front runner in March Madness - 1K from winning hte Lion!
<@SLViehl> Anne, a troublemaker?
<Kaelle> No, Anne, you? troublemaker?
<Anne_Marble> People were discussing horrid covers -- but what some of them were really talking about was people making fun of what they read.
<@SLViehl> brb and then we'll get started
<BarGnat> k
<Kaelle> WTG, Catherine!
<Anne_Marble> I tried to point out that there's nothing wrong with seeing a hunk on a cover now and then, and that if someone makes fun of your reading choices, you should (duh) defend yourself. :->
<Kaelle> duh, LOL
<BJ Steeves> Well it IS fiction!
<@SLViehl> back. Last call for beverages/bathroom/whatever
<BarGnat> And some of it is GOOD fiction, too
<Anne_Marble> I mean, one woman admitted hiding her romances with "clinch" (huggy) covers in boxes because her family members made fun of the covers. Gah. Tell 'em off!
<Robert> I don't know. I think clinch covers just say what genre it is.
<@SLViehl> I don't think we should be ashamed of our covers, clinch or no-clinch
<Nathan> Hi pkurilla
<@SLViehl> I just wish I could get Fabio for one of mine....sigh....
<pkurilla> Hm. It's not accepting my name.
<@Jim> Hi Peg!
<Anne_Marble> Maybe it's a youth thing. I feel ancient at 37.
<Robert> Hi Pkurilla!
<pkurilla> Ah... just did. )
<@SLViehl> Hi Peggy
<Kaelle> I not only don't care if people see what I'm reading, I also laugh out loud if there's something funny. I get looks. (g)
<Nathan> Hi JamiJo
<Yvonne> they aren't any worse than old sf covers, some of those were the epitome of cheese
<BarGnat> Hey, Jami!
<pkurilla> Hello everyone.
<Catherine> Can I watch and write? I'm kind of on a roll here!
<@SLViehl> Looks like a full house tonight
<Anne_Marble> I pointed out in one response that some of those cheesy SF covers are now bound in huge art books.
<@SLViehl> Hi Katherine
<JamiJo> beats head against monitor I lost it!! I go to work for a day, and I sit back down and draw BLANKS!! sigh
<Nathan> hello Katherine
<BarGnat> Hi Katherine
<pkurilla> JamiJo, one day isn't that much. One MONTH, though.... LOL
<JamiJo> Yeah, but I still need 19k for madness...
<Sarah> Yay, my picture is going to be in Locus!
<Nathan> I feel glad for you JamiJo
<Robert> I lost about four hours so far to rereading after interruptions to get back to where it flowed, JamiJo - you'll get momentum.
<Anne_Marble> Yay Sarah!
<JamiJo> I'm going to be lurking in and out, so if it gets to my turn and i don't say anything, please skip me...
<Kaelle> Yay, Sarah!
<pkurilla> Congrats Sarah
<Anne_Marble> Oh, oh, oh, the next Holly book got a GREAT review in Locus, by Carolyn Cushman!
<@Jim> Wtg Sarah!
<Sarah> Well, me and the Tensors, but it's better than last year, when they forgot me.
<Anne_Marble> Remind me to tell her.
<pkurilla> Which one? Memory of Fire?
<@Jim> Oh... I missed that, Anne!!
<@SLViehl> Okay, we're going to get started
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, the Avon thingie.
<Kaelle> I'm waiting on tenterhooks for Memory of Fire.
<pkurilla> Coolness, I'll have to check it. Me, too, Kaelle.
<Nathan> Hello DragonDancer
<DragonDancer> Hi!
<@SLViehl> I've put everyone's name up on the roster. When we get to you, if you don't have a question for the group, just say "Pass"
<@SLViehl> welcome DragonDancer
<@SLViehl> Here's how the Think Tank works:
<@SLViehl> and btw, I'm S.L. (Sheila) Viehl, your moderator for the evening
<@SLViehl> Each person on the roster has a chance to put a writing-related question to the group
<@SLViehl> we discuss and offer possible suggestions/solutions -- positive, constructive answers
<pkurilla> Hey, Joel.
<@SLViehl> when I call "time" we wrap it up and move on to the next person
<Nathan> Hello Joel
<@SLViehl> Please remember to keep your questions (and answers) G to PG13 rated
<Joel_A> hi, pkurilla
<Joel_A> hi, nathan
<@SLViehl> Hi Joel, you're just in time
<Joel_A> hi, ms viehl. had to reboot my computer
<@SLViehl> So we're going to start with Anne tonight, and Kae, you'll be next. Anne, you're up
<Anne_Marble> My characters went and changed their minds on me, and my plot has jumped ahead. Suddenly, Gorok and Wulf are roomies. And there's a villain. A creepy mage. Help! I need complication help.
<@SLViehl> Where were they just before this, Anne?
<Joel_A> oh! how does this new villain know the characters?
<Anne_Marble> Everybody hated Gorok, Wulf wasn't ready to have a relationship with him yet. (Keeping this PG-13, you know...)
<Robert> Was the creepy maae really doing it to get back at Wulf for long old rivalry?
<Joel_A> could the villain be related to "the big plot" (e.g., destroy the world, etc.)
<Anne_Marble> I think he knows Wulf from the past. He just met Gorok.
<@SLViehl> I would give the two of them some problem(s) to solve which would draw them closer together, eliminate some of the hostility
<Anne_Marble> Maybe they could be trying to find the same artifact in the ancient city.
<pkurilla> Does Gorok have any thing on or about him that might rub the mage the wrong way? Say a magic item that gives off an aura the mage doesn't like?
<@SLViehl> If the problems could lead to the revelation of the villain, even better
<Robert> Is the creep a bully who's threatened by muscular barbarian?
<Anne_Marble> Well they're already have problems because of their first encounter, which was ... agrgressive and violent.
<pkurilla> Or a homophobe?
<Anne_Marble> The creep tried to lure Gorok to his side to use him against Wulf.
<@SLViehl> How about the wounded animal, Anne? Have you done anything more with that?
<Sarah> The thing that one of them does that most pisses off the other turns out to be something that gets them out of a bind...
<pkurilla> Anne, I think that would cause some major problems there.
<Kaelle> Where do Gorok and Wulf need to go next? O r do next?
<Anne_Marble> Yup, Wulf is taking care of him.
<@SLViehl> Lose the animal. Make them work together to find him. It's the first cooperative effort.
<Robert> Does the creep tend to steal Wulf's artifacts and rack up points against his own quota?
<Anne_Marble> Kaelle, I have to keep this PG-13!!! ;->
<Katherine> Maybe the creep villain really likes muscular barbarians?
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, good ideas.
<Kaelle> lol, Anne. I meant plot wise .
<pkurilla> Maybe Wulf has some problems with the idea that Gorok was going to (he thinks) help the creep?
<Robert> Maybe rescue the animal from the creep, since torturing a victim's pet is a way to really get him to crack.
<Yvonne> (snort)
<Anne_Marble> I thought of having Wulf distrust Gorok, but it didn't seem in character.
<@SLViehl> Their concern for the animal could be the first bonding point. Work from there.
<Katherine> Does Gorok trust anyone?
<Yvonne> Why would Wulf trust him, considering what happened?
<pkurilla> Not distrust necessarily, Anne, just uneasy... Wants the relationship, but there's this uncertainty......
<Robert> Or the tone of the scene - it works better if the creep accidentally united them but becomes more of a problem.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe he trust the cat.
<pkurilla> Anyone who has a cat can't be all bad? Is that it?
<@SLViehl> Anyone who cares for a wounded animal is basically a good person, somewhere deep down inside. I think we'd all agree on that
<Anne_Marble> I've got that dang kitten to worry about. I hope I don't have too many cats.
<Robert> Nah, you can never have too many cats. (G)
<Anne_Marble> I've decided that does help the other mages realize Gorok is not all that bad.
<Robert> Sheila got away with giving Cherijo another cat!
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, but this is their first story. ;->
<@SLViehl> I'm up to seven cats in StarDoc now.
<BarGnat> Does the wounded cat have any magical properties that could be agitating the bad guy?
<Katherine> Now how does Gorok realize that the other mages aren't all that bad? Maybe they help protect him from the villain?
<pkurilla> Good lord, Sheila. Seven?
<Robert> Wow, coolness!
<Anne_Marble> Maybe it chews on his spells.
<pkurilla> Maybe the cat is a counter-magical agent of some kind... kind of like alkalai to acid.
<Anne_Marble> The mage trust thing could still be a problem. He doesn't know mage "types" from Adam.
<Kaelle> Peg, neat idea.
<@SLViehl> Or the cat could have a reaction to the villain, tied in with him getting lost -- maybe the villain tries to do away with the cat?
<Anne_Marble> He doesn't really know they're different types, belong to different teachings.
<@SLViehl> And Gorok and Wulf have to work together to save the cat and figure out why he's reacting to the villain
<Anne_Marble> I think the villain will try to do something mean to the cat. :-<
<pkurilla> And how the teachings affect the magic they cast...
<pkurilla> That could lead to some serious misunderstandings.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> He could end up trusting the wrong mage because that mage looks cute. ;->
<pkurilla> Ignoring gut feelings is always a good way to go.
<@SLViehl> I really like the idea of a build-up to the bond between Gorok and Wulf -- give them either the cat problem or other, non-relationship problems to work on together.
<Robert> That's a setback for Gorok and Wulf if the cute one does charm spells and did one on Gorok.
<pkurilla> (er, plot wise, not in real life.)
<Anne_Marble> I thought they could build an herb garden together, too, for the infirmary.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all for some great suggestions, Kaelle, do you have a question tonight?
<Kaelle> "Pass." I'm rolling right along with my new combined worldbuilding story. I'm handwriting plot ideas right now. This is great!
<Jenny> hi
<Joel_A> that's great, kae
<Joel_A> hey, jenny
<@SLViehl> No problem, Kae. Sarah, how about you? Hi Jenny
<pkurilla> Good, Kae! Hi Jenny.
<Jenny> asl
<Nathan> Hi Jenny
<Jenny> HellO
<Jenny> Where are u from?
<Sarah> Pass.
<Kaelle> Thanks, everyone! Hi, Jenny!
<BarGnat> Hi Jenny
<Robert> Hi Jenny! <bash>
<Jenny> hello
<@SLViehl> Okay Sarah. BJ, how about you -- got a question for the group?
<BJ Steeves> Pass - No question, at least not yet anyway.
<@SLViehl> That brings us to Yvonne. Got a question for us, lady?
<Yvonne> I do
<@SLViehl> Bring it on
<Yvonne> my party has to get an artifact from a king, he gives them a bunch of tasks to do in exchange for the artifact. I need to brainstorm that list.
<Yvonne> It's basically a king's list of stuff adventurers can do. Any ideas?
<Kaelle> How mean is this king?
<pkurilla> Borrow from the 12 labors of Hercules, Yvonne.
<Robert> Clear the bandits and rebels out of those hills.
<JamiJo> retrieve a special type of plant / herb to save his sick daughter's life
<BarGnat> something besides cleaning stables, I hope
<pkurilla> Fetch some specific item from an enemy king.
<Yvonne> haven't the labors been done to death?
<@SLViehl> I would create problems that need special solutions. Gordian knot-type stuff
<Scott> Stand on one leg, pat their heads and rub their stomachs. Just as a warm-up.
<Anne_Marble> Is this serious or humorous? Or both?
<Robert> Find the lost crown jewels.
<Nathan> Four words: twelve Labors of Hercules
<@SLViehl> Let's start with what the king might want -- eliminate an enemy of the kingdom?
<Sarah> Is this serious or lighthearted? You could get into some fun self-parody if it's the latter.
<Yvonne> he's a good king
<Anne_Marble> What made Herc's labors so cool was that some were dangerous, and some were bizarre. Like when he dressed as a woman...
<BarGnat> You could also have the quests hidden in royal riddles
<JamiJo> Penetrate and disband a group of revolutionaries in one of his cities...
<Joel_A> consider the weaknesses of the characters and directly target them with the task (e.g. one character is a major homophone and has to deal with a major warrior (a guy) who likes him (the character)
<pkurilla> Escorting the royal heir to his boarding school.
<Katherine> I like the riddles idea. The chain that bound Fenris was made of ingredients that were riddle-like.
<Yvonne> serious, for the most part
<Nathan> Does he hate the people that are doing the tasks?
<Kaelle> Be a negotiating party for a noble the king wants married to a specific female.
<pkurilla> Joel just made a good point--use the characters' weaknesses against them.
<@SLViehl> I would give the MC a chance to show how he's worthy of the artifact -- maybe the tasks are more like tests of worthiness
<BJ Steeves> Kinda like Jason and the Argonauts
<Yvonne> he doesn't hate them, he just wants to get them out of his hair, and hopefully get some backlogged stuff done
<Robert> What does the king really want? All the tasks done - or the adventurers not to come back?
<Sarah> Ooh, ooh, win a female on behalf of the king! (then have said female fall in love with one of the party)
<@SLViehl> After all, if anybody could do the tasks, the artifact wouldn't be so prized
<Joel_A> oh, good one, sarah.
<JamiJo> Maybe they have to find another artifact that's been lost for thousands of years to replace the one they are taking...
<@SLViehl> Nice idea, Sarah
<Katherine> I'd go for a short list of pretty difficult tasks. Lots of little tasks could get repetitious.
<Yvonne> Robert> both
<@SLViehl> I agree, Katherine
<Anne_Marble> One could involve a maze or labyrinth. Those are cool.
<pkurilla> Retrieve the lost artifacts of some deity, that are supposed to bring health and wealth to the kingdom.... say the Head of Bran, the Spear of Lugh, etch.
<@SLViehl> How about three?
<BarGnat> Who comprises your party?
<Anne_Marble> And in some religions, mazes are symbolic of certain ... thingies.
<Joel_A> have the party save an entire city from a major plague. then get some of the members infected
<pkurilla> Or one task to spotlight the skills/strengths/weaknesses of each party member.
<Nathan> Maybe they have to travel across the planet...Facing many perils of course...to get something that can only be found there(on the other side of the planet)
<Joel_A> that'll raise the stakes....
<@SLViehl> I like tests of honor, of courage, and of wisdom -- could you frame the tasks around those qualities, Yvonne?
<Robert> Maybe teh kind knows the last one demands they die to succeed in it. Wraps it up nice, dunnit?
<Yvonne> I could.
<Sarah> They get sent off to slay some sort of nasty beastie and end up befriending it instead (and later use it to save the kingdom)
<Robert> Unless tehy manage a journey through the underwrold and inconveniently show up having gotten the thingummy from the underwrorld
<pkurilla> Good one, Sarah.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Yvonne?
<Yvonne> okay, more specifics, they've got a good sized dragon in the party
<Katherine> I also like hidden quests: part of the quest is figuring out what the quest actually is.
<Robert> Journey through the underworld is another classic element. Make that rough if you use it.
<Sarah> Have the dragon rescue a damsel from an evil knight...
<@SLViehl> I would go for three tasks, specifically designed to be challenging to some aspect of the character. Something that really requires thought as well as brawn
<Anne_Marble> I like that, Sarah. :->
<Robert> I like that, Sarah, and it could be subtle as well as amusing.
<Kaelle> lol, Sarah. You're on a roll tonight!
<Nathan> Mabey it's some sort of challenge that leaves only one member in the party when everythings all done
<@SLViehl> Work it into your setting. Let it showcase a little more of your world
<Anne_Marble> Dang, Sheila, I might steal that for my story. :->
<pkurilla> Agree, Sheila, definitely brains as well as brawn.
<Yvonne> are 3 tasks enough to fill a book?
<Joel_A> have the dragon steal a dragon egg from another nest
<Sarah> Course, if this were one of my stories, she'd probably end up falling in love with the dragon...
<pkurilla> If they're good, three is more than enough.
<Yvonne> ah, okay
<Katherine> Three is plenty.
<@SLViehl> Sure, Yvonne, as long as they're not really easy
<pkurilla> Some books revolve around just one task. )
<Anne_Marble> Good point, Peggy. Heck, so do some trilogies.
<Katherine> LOTR, for instance.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all for some great ideas. Robert, you're up, then BarGnat is after you.
<Robert> Sheila's right. My Lochannan books need rewriting in part because I had the guys doing 12 - and they only got to 7 before main conflict was resolved and the moon mother got mad their dragon ate the giant boar from the next one!
<@SLViehl> More is not always better
<Robert> Oh cool! I just introduced romantic subplot Lady Ysildre, a woman who came onstage bitter, cold and bossy doing her share of a post earthquake rescue.
<Kaelle> <snarf, Robert>
<pkurilla> Going Zen-like... Less is More.
<Joel_A> OM
<Joel_A>
<Robert> She's also a closet romantic and I don't think it's inconsistent with her character to show up that night at the dance suddenly hot with passion and very ladylike - but not that intimate - she is a tantric magician not virgin, older woman who had that innocence burned out on other things.
<@SLViehl> Is this your question, Robert? (clock is ticking)
<Robert> Would that be a reasonable direction for the tension - they get involved, but they fight a lot and while they are in love both are afraid to call it thatt?
<pkurilla> Depends--why is she bitter?
<pkurilla> If she's bitter from a past failed romance, she's NOT going to get into another one very easily, if ever.
<Robert> Like, theme is Innocence Restored to the love plot? Both older divorced people at their essence.
<@SLViehl> There are all kinds of innocence
<Katherine> Plenty of real relationships are like that. Sounds plausible to me.
<Robert> Not quite that, in a way she never did let herself get that close to anyone but has friends who are exes and one ex she laughs at.
<@SLViehl> So her heart is a fortress
<Katherine> Sheila's right about innocence, too.
<pkurilla> The question then would become what makes her so special that the guy is willing to work to break down those barriers?
<Robert> Some of her thing is she's always been smarter and tougher and men get intimidated by her. Her heart's a fortress. She doesn't like shallow guys or being treated as helpless.
<pkurilla> There has to be SOMETHING there that he sees beneath the surface.
<pkurilla> Maybe she has no idea it's there, either.
<Anne_Marble> One of the best romance subplots I read involved a widow who had slept around a lot but had never really loved. (She was abused.) She kept trying to push him away brvsudr hr esd honotsblr snf hoof.
<Robert> Um, they're both telepathic and they're both that frustrated at shallow relationships.
<BarGnat> How's her sense of honor?
<Katherine> He's willing to accept her on her own terms, which surprises her on a deep lvel.
<Anne_Marble> Whoops. Because he was honorable and good. :->
<Robert> Impeccable. She is HONORABLE and that is one of the things he'd most appreciate in her.
<pkurilla> Dyslexia of the fingers, Anne?
<Yvonne> lol
<@SLViehl> Honor and strength are just as attractive as other qualities. Even more so to some people
<Anne_Marble> wrong keys.
<Katherine> For a minute I thought you were ROT-13ing your answer, Anne.
<@SLViehl> I'm proud of you Anne.
<Kaelle> (wondering what language Anne is using)
<Katherine> To keep it PG.
<Robert> Yeah, and they're both people for whom that would matter more than appeareances even if both are goodlooking.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, a ROT-13 joke!
<pkurilla> Robert, I can see her having major telepathic barriers, too.
<@SLViehl> Wanting to share your life with someone who epitomizes honor and strength is not a bad thing, Robert.
<@SLViehl> Many men would be willing to do a great deal to win a lady like this.
<pkurilla> As she opens up to the guy, she lowers her barriers more and more until he learns just what hurt her so badly.
<Robert> Yes. She has a tremendously disciplined mind. She's like a Vulcan girl that way, which is why I think under it she's so passionate.
<BarGnat> But she has to learn to trust enough to let her inner feelings rise to the surface
<Robert> She had the scandal of revealing her mage talent at the altar while turning down an arranged marriage, neatly keeping her noble status and getting mage training.
<pkurilla> Bingo, BarGnat.
<@SLViehl> There you go.
<pkurilla> Very neat, Robert.
<Anne_Marble> She, I'd like a scandal like that in my past.
<Robert> Yes, BarGnat! She's learning to trust and afraid that he's real, that he's everything she thinks he is.
<@SLViehl> I'd say work on the trust issues, the thought of sharing a life instead of going the way of the lone wolf, that sort of thing
<Katherine> Afraid that he is, and afraid that he's not.
<Robert> She's one of very few mages who know who her parents are and has a big family that she's on uneasy terms with after that stunt.
<pkurilla> Good point, Katherine.
<BarGnat> ambivalence is always a good hook
<Katherine> Afraid of herself, too.
<Robert> Yes. She's sort of often in charge and wants to lay that down sometimes but gets a bit perfectionist, but trying to overcome that.
<@SLViehl> This sounds like a complex character, so she wouldn't be capable of falling in love at the drop of a hat
<Robert> Right. Or at least dealing with it if it socked her between the eyes.
<pkurilla> Given what you've said, I don't think there's a problem with the relationship. It will develop almost glacially slowly though.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Robert?
<BarGnat> right! in fact, she'd probably fight it every inch of the way
<Katherine> She's trying to overcome perfectionism, but is afraid of the loss of control.
<pkurilla> AT least in the beginning.
<Kaelle> Sounds promising, Robert.
<Robert> Purr, thanks! She just barged into the book and I can see it's gonna be rocky but she won't let me give her a minor part! lol
<@SLViehl> I would allow these two to form a superficial bond, based on the immediacy of the relationship, then work out the deeper issues at a gradual pace
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all for some great suggestions. BarGnat, do you have a question for the group tonight?
<Robert> That's the arc I was guessing on it. They work together and call it magic and they go through all those trust issues very slowly.
<BarGnat> pass.... I'm just a gnewbie gnat and lurking tonight.
<@SLViehl> No problem. Nathan, how about you?
<pkurilla> Can't be lurking--you've given suggestions.
<BarGnat> busted!
<JamiJo> heh- she's got you there, MizGnat!
<@SLViehl> lol
<Robert> Thanks, everyone! You've given me great ideas!
<Nathan> Yeah, I have a Question
<Nathan> In my current WIP I'm stuck. What are good ways of getting unstuck?
<Joel_A> oh dear, nathan. you opened a can of worms
<pkurilla> Can't answer that without knowing what you're stuck on.
<@SLViehl> How are you stuck, Nathan? What's keep you there?
<Robert> Read back over what you've got making minor connections till you get to the leading edge again.
<Anne_Marble> Write different paragraphs going in different directions
<Sarah> Kill somebody.
<BarGnat> worse than worms: squamata!
<pkurilla> Except for the classic, "Then Naked women rush in, guns blazing, and...."
<Joel_A> LOL, bargnat
<Scott> Is it a plot problem, or lack of motivation to write?
<Nathan> Plot prob
<Joel_A> that's a cool twist, pkurilla
<Robert> Ask what's the worst thing that could happen to the MC's right now.
<Jim> Holly has an article on writer's block and ways to overcome it. http://hollylisle.com/fm -- read that and do what she recommends.
<pkurilla> Got it from Holly. ;p
<Kaelle> What do you need to know for the MC, Nathan?
<Joel_A> break out the index cards, nathan, and figure out what has happened and write them down.
<JamiJo> set your timer for 10 minutes, and WRITE for the full 10 minutes. Don't think about it, and don't let your fingers stop , and you will very likely give you an answer...
<@SLViehl> Okay, so backtrack to the point where the plot works, and look at where you took a wrong turn
<JamiJo> I think that's part of Holly's idear...
<Sarah> Reveal that one of the main characters is actually the opposite gender in disguise.
<Stevenif_> if it's a plot problem, one thing that can help is to go back to your plot questions. What is the object of the story? Stuff like that.
<pkurilla> Yes, JamiJo, timed writing is a great exercise for getting unstuck.
<JamiJo> HEY! Sarah, you've been reading my book!
<BarGnat> When I get stuck, I usually find the problem actually lies a chapter or two BEFORE I "took a wrong turn"
<Robert> Look at a continuity error as APPARENT contradiciton and ask what would make both sides of it true?
<Steven> Stevenif??? where'd that come from?
<@SLViehl> Although quick fixes are fun (I love to kill off a character to jumpstart things) with a plot problem, you really need to examine the plot thread
<@SLViehl> You were still in the name box when you started typing, Steven
<pkurilla> And BarGnat just made a good observation--you may need to backtrack further than you think.
<Steven> ah.
<Steven> right. silly me
<Katherine> If I'm stuck, jumping forward often helps. Jump to the next point where I know what happens, then backtrack and fill in.
<@SLViehl> Good point, BarGnat & Peggy -- you may need to rewrite the thread, Nathan
<BarGnat> Yes, Katherine. That works well, too.
<Katherine> Jumping forward is especially helpful for mystery plots and subplots.
<JamiJo> For plot things, Andi's beginning novel plotting course is very interesting - that might help out, i believe a transcript is posted in the classes area?
<Sarah> Sometimes it does help to work on something else for a while, then come back to it when you've cleared your head. and detached a bit from the story. You may see things you were too close to see before.
<pkurilla> Yes, the transcript is up.
<@SLViehl> True, Sarah
<Katherine> Give your cast of characters a hard look, too. I got unstuck recently by throwing out one of my minor characters, rewriting my antagonist, and bringing him closer to the center of the action.
<Nathan> Yes, but I don't have any TIME to work on something else...March Madness ends sunday
<@SLViehl> Then I'd say jump ahead, Nathan. You can always go back later
<Robert> If the something else is also fiction like starting a short story, then you're cool for MM and it counts toward the total.
<Steven> yep, Robert's right.
<cherylp> That explains it, Nathan, you're stressed.
<pkurilla> Katherine, yes, combining character functions can help solve a problem.
<pkurilla> Cheryl--took the words right out of my mouth.
<Nathan> I actually created one of my characters just to kill...I jsut need to come up with the right circumstances...or he could have a heart attack
<Robert> Think of holly's great quote: "let yourself write cr*p" - I put that on my monitor!
<Anne_Marble> You can always look at pictures that make you think of your story or characters and see if you can have ideas from them.
<pkurilla> Nathan, you can tweak it and make it perfect in rewrite.
<pkurilla> well, more perfect.
<Steven> maybe he isn't ready to die yet? just keep going on the story and maybe he'll tell you when he's ready to croak.
<Steven> ribbit
<JamiJo> (that;s an EXCELLENT idea Robert... *scribble*scribble* thanks)
<@SLViehl> With the dare, the point is to write, right? Not to perfect?
<Robert> Kill him brutally with friendly fire int heir next fight. That'lls crew up the party!
<pkurilla> Robert--Friendly fire ISN'T... <g>
<@SLViehl> or just write [kill character here] and move on
<@SLViehl> I think that's what Holly does
<Steven> yep.I've done that many times.
<Robert> And the party ran out of rations, so they ate Robin's minstrel. And there was great rejoicing!
<pkurilla> ROFL Robert.
<Katherine> LOL!
<DragonDancer> LOL
<Nathan> I ove that scene
<Nathan> ove=love
<@SLViehl> Robert, you're awful lol
<Catherine> Yeah, I accidentally killed a character this evening.
<cherylp> He he
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nathan?
<pkurilla> Resurrect him if you need to, Catherine.
<Steven> accidentally? as the author, that takes talent...
<DragonDancer> if the character has something crucial to say, have him die before they find out what he needs to say
<Catherine> He just sort of decided to die - but it was oK - he was out anyway
<@SLViehl> I'd jump ahead in the story if you can
<Robert> Just write whatever's fun int he story, Nathan. ENJOY it. Afterward sort it out.
<Catherine> I have lots of that sort of talent
<@SLViehl> lol Catherine
<Nathan> Thank you all plenty...I got lots and lots of ideas now
<Anne_Marble> Gee, and I was impressed because I accidentally made two men into instant roomies.
<Steven> oh good
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks all for some great ideas -- Scott, you're up, got a question for us?
<pkurilla> Anne, it's a good start. Glad to have helped, nathan.
<Scott> Sort of. Looking more for opinions than suggestions.
<Robert> I accidentally let the gut wounded dude live cause his freinds were able to help him.
<@SLViehl> hand it over
<Scott> I wrote a fantasy novel. To avoid the age-old cliché of the young prince trying to win the hand of the beautiful princess, I started the novel with them already married and with a baby and then went with the adventure from there. I showed the finished product to a pro and he told me I was missing a bet by having them married already. What do you folks think?
<pkurilla> Opinions? From this group? naaaaah.
<Kaelle> No, it's different. I like!
<@SLViehl> I think it's unusual, but I like it
<Catherine> I like it...but loves tories do sell...
<Robert> I think it's a little original but if there's a romantic subplot of 'already married and have a baby' renewing their passions would come into it!
<@SLViehl> especially if something threatens the couple/baby
<pkurilla> Scott, Holly said in the Q&A last night that a romance plot is almost necessary for breakout books. Doesn't mean you have to do it, but something to think about.
<Anne_Marble> I like it, it's different.
<Venus> Personally, I'm always disappointed if they're already married - I expect one of them to die or something
<Sarah> As long as there are complications in the romance. Too much "no, I love YOU more" gets boring.
<Steven> yeah sheila. I read it and that kind of stuff happens.
<Katherine> You can have a romance plot between two already married people.
<Anne_Marble> Did they marry because of love or political reasons? Maybe they married for the alliance and are only now falling in love?
<DragonDancer> that ups the stakes, doesn't it? having to keep the family alive and happy while saving the day?
<Robert> They should go through a rocky point in the marriage and come out of it stronger imho
<Jim> The pro probably meant that you miss the romance, but you have the opportunity to explore the building relationship between prince, princess and child.
<Scott> Well, it's an adventure story, not a romance, so it's kind of secondary to the main plot.
<Kaelle> Something needs to come between them for tension, though, I think
<@SLViehl> I did this in SD5, put stress on the relationship by focusing on the child (but I won't say anymore)
<BJ Steeves> Someone cheating on the spose?
<Katherine> Yes, Kaelle, I agree.
<Robert> Kill the baby? That'll definitely tear up their love till they barely manage to overcome the grief.
<@SLViehl> Married people have different problems than single people.
<BarGnat> Oh, something happens to bring on the tension, Kaelle
<BarGnat> LOTS of somethings
<@SLViehl> Have someone interfere with the relationship is good, too
<Kaelle> lol, BG
<Katherine> You're bloodthirsty tonight, aren't you Robert!
<Steven> Gee, i think some people have read the MSS already. hehe
<JamiJo2> maybe a kidnapping of the baby / spouse?
<Joel_A> show the strains of the adventuring life on the couple and their child. though i don't read the comic book, that's currently happening between Lois and Clark
<@SLViehl> Nice, JamiJo
<BarGnat> Yes, Dhaga, and even remember it
<Scott> Well, a demon does steal the baby. That adds a little tension
<Joel_A> JUST a tad, Scott
<pkurilla> Or a seduction of one of the couple by someone else....
<Anne_Marble> How about a handsome rival who tries to seduce the heroine? Or for that matter, the hero? (He's involved with the demon in reality...)
<Sarah> Ooh ooh! Demon makes baby into another demon!
<Robert> Or the weird moral situation where that seduction is the only way to get the baby back..
<BarGnat> They have enough problems with the demon, believe me!
<Joel_A> introduce their family members...especially the ones who don't like the other's spouse (e.g., the classic mother n law, etc.)
<pkurilla> Good, Joel. Adventuring would put strain on a relationship, especially when a child is involved.
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of them being at odds with how they go after the baby at first -- knee jerk reactions
<@SLViehl> Mother wants to get the kid, Father wants to get the demon, different ideas on how
<BarGnat> hrm.... have YOU read the MSS?
<Joel_A> especially,pkurilla, if they have different views of what is an adventure (e.g., she likes to directly fight, while he sneaks in the background and stabs
<@SLViehl> Traditionally men are more direct than women, but women get pretty direct when their children are threatened.
<Scott> You pretty much nailed what I had happen, Sheila
<Katherine> <Picturing comic subplot involving daycare during demon hunt.>
<Anne_Marble> Hey, if Disney can come out with "Cinderella II"...
<pkurilla> LOL Katherine.
<pkurilla> Not to mention Little Mermaid II....
<Jim> Have you posted any chapters for crits?
<Kaelle> LOL, Katherine
<BarGnat> Yes, Sheila certainly did nail it down pretty much
<JamiJo> they could argue over who get's to kill the demon... "well if you loved me as much as you say, you'd let ME kill the bastartd..."
<Joel_A> I would NOT want to cross a mother when she's after her child...
<@SLViehl> The child becomes the focus, and the relationship suffers, Scott -- they're so bound up in their concern for the child that they forget to trust each other
<Scott> No, Jim. Just a batch of test readers--like the BarGnat
<Steven> I've read the whole thing. :P
<Joel_A> good point, sheila
<Scott> Oh, and Steven, how'd I miss him?
<Steven> dunno. hehe
<Jim> You should post it on the F&SF Board and get some more feedback.
<BarGnat> He's been unusually quiet tonight, that's hoiw
<BarGnat> how, even
<BarGnat> Unlike the gnatly one.
<@SLViehl> I wouldn't let anyone tell you a married relationship doesn't work as a starter, though. That's too restrictive.
<Joel_A> oh! have the couple arguing about approach their family members for help...especially the all-powerful sorcerer who didn't like the marriage in the first place
<Scott> But in general, you folks have no problem with them being married to start?
<Venus> scott - it
<JamiJo> ... are there any other siblings?
<pkurilla> You might also rent "Undercover Blues." Its a funny movie about a married couple who are CIA agents.... and they have a baby.
<Joel_A> no, scott. sounds cool.
<@SLViehl> Not me. Married people are cool.
<Venus> it's not about whether they're married or not. It's about what they do in the story
<DragonDancer> no! I like the idea of married heroes
<Anne_Marble> I tink it's a neat change.
<pkurilla> No, Scott. Not at all.
<BarGnat> gnever did have a problem with it, Scott
<Kaelle> No problem with me, them being married.
<Venus> Thank you Sheila (G)
<Katherine> None whatsoever. Some of my best friends are married. (As am I.)
<Scott> Okay! Thanks everyone!
<BarGnat> hehehe
<@SLViehl> Just because I can't stay married myself....lol
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Scott?
<Nathan> No...It's different from your typical lets go rescue the damsel in distress and marry her plot or something like that
<Joel_A> some people have probs with Superman(tm) being married, but I've read good reviews on the series....
<Anne_Marble> Sean Stewart did a fantasy novel about what happened after the poor hero married the princess, but I think it was from a different angle. She was obnoxious and spoiled, etc. I'd like your take on it better.
<@SLViehl> I'd go for it. Take the road less traveled with the married couple.
<Nathan> Supermans married?
<Joel_A> yep, nathan.
<pkurilla> Yep, Nathan--has been four five or six years, at least.
<BarGnat> progeny may soon abound
<pkurilla> four = for.
<Robert> At last. I thought he held the record for unresolved romantic tension.
<Yvonne> this is after he came back from the dead?
<@SLViehl> Okay, I'm going to call a five minute break now, then we'll get started back after break with Catherine
<pkurilla> Robert--he still does. LOL
<Anne_Marble> Is it our Superman, though, or one of the others? They had several earths bouncing around there.
<Venus> OK - brb need tea!
<Joel_A> and Wonder Woman(tm) FINALLY has a cool boyfriend...and it's not Steve Trevor(tm)
<BarGnat> lol
<Robert> Changing file.
<pkurilla> Anne--all the earths have been combined. Only one earth in DC Superhero land now.
<@SLViehl> brb -- getting my tea
<JamiJo2> UGH i HATE tiggers!
<Nathan> I didn't know that superman was married
<BarGnat> mdieep herer
<Joel_A> <nods in agreement with pkurilla>
<BarGnat> erm, here
<pkurilla> BRB.....
<Joel_A> and his dog is back, too. that's one of the few changes I don't like in the current Post-crisis DC universe (tm)
<Kaelle> BG, borrowed some of Anne's typing skills...?
<Nathan> of course the most recent superman comic that I've read is one from the 80s
<Anne_Marble> Hey, I resemble that remark
<Steven> Kaelle, BG is the original TypoidMary.
<JamiJo2> lol
<Kaelle> LOL
<@SLViehl> back
<Joel_A> gasp! there have been MAJOR changes, nathan. for one, Lex Luthor(tm) has a child
<Catherine> It's OK, i'm going to pass - don't have enough book left for problems.
<Kaelle> WHat! Lex a father?
<Nathan> Goodness
<@SLViehl> no problem, Catherine
<JamiJo2> How's your story goin Steven?
<Steven> pretty good.
<Joel_A> Yeah, Kae, Nathan.
<Steven> but soon the churdlins will go to bed and it'll go better. hehehe.
<Joel_A> He killed the mother, though. We think...
<Anne_Marble> Hey, the John Shea version of Lex could've parked his slippers under my bed any day...
<Steven> make that now...
<pkurilla> Back...
<Nathan> Who's Superman[tm] married to? Lois?
<Kaelle> Joel> Oh well, that's more like Lex, then.
<Joel_A> Oh. And Luthor(tm) is the Prez of the U.S. <shudder>
<pkurilla> Yes, Lex has a child. He's also president.
<pkurilla> Nathan, yes Lois is his wife.
<Nathan> What??
<Joel_A> His wife was worse than Lex, too.
<Steven> sick kids is no fun. bleh.
<pkurilla> Ah, yes, La Contessa. AT least they brought back Krypto.
<BarGnat> I saw it, Jami
<Kaelle> <shakes head> I can see I've missed a heck of a lot of story.
<Joel_A> I hate krypto. they should have kept him pre-crisis.
<JamiJo> uh-oh, I thought Mrs. S was supposed to take one of them somewhere...
<Nathan> Lex Luthor, President?...What, has the world finally turned evil or something...or is lex no longer a criminal?
<pkurilla> I hate what they've done with him....
<Steven> yeah, but he was sick.
<Steven> SO...
<pkurilla> Nathan, Lex is a businessman. White-collar crime. harder to track.
<Joel_A> Lex? Not a criminal? BWHAHAHAHA!!!
<pkurilla> And he has a great PR team....
<Robert> I think he grew hair, when he got hair he stopped being criminal - Minoxidil saved his soul.
<Steven> ROFL
<Kaelle> ROFL, Robert
<@SLViehl> lol Robert
<Katherine> Ya know, I used to work for a guy like that.
<Robert> Rogain for Masterminds. Change your public image.
<DragonDancer> you're on fire tonight, Robert! lol
<Katherine> Complete slime, but great PR team.
<Kaelle> snarf
<pkurilla> Stop it, Robert--it hurts! hehehehehhe
<Anne_Marble> My parents just came back from their trip. So if you live in the South, blame your recent weather on them. They're gone now, so it should be getting sunny and warm. ;->
<@SLViehl> I worked for that guy too, Katherine
<Nathan> ROFLOL Robert
<pkurilla> Katherine--yep, that's lex in this continuity.
<Kaelle> lol Anne
<@SLViehl> I killed him off a couple of times already in different stories
<Katherine> I think we all did at one time or another, Sheila.
<Kaelle> LOL Sarah
<Steven> Sarah Danger? hehehe
<pkurilla> Oh, my husband takes record weather with him wherever he goes. Can be record good or record bad, but record nevertheless.
<Nathan> So what changes have befallen batman sice the um...60s?
<Joel_A> And let's not get started with the new Superboy(tm) and Supergirl(tm)
<@SLViehl> Uh-oh, Danger Girl
<pkurilla> Nathan--he's VERY dark, very nasty, and is considering giving up his Bruce Wayne identity completely.
<Sarah Danger> Hey, I have to get adventure SOMEWHERE, and it sure as heck won't be with the fish tomorrow.
<@SLViehl> Okay, last call for bathroom/beverages/whatever
<Nathan> Whos Superboy and supergirl?
<Joel_A> batman: well, let's see: there is a third robin (#2 was killed). Oh! And Bruce Wayne committed murder. We think
<Nathan> oh dear
<pkurilla> Nathan, Email me for more details.... kurilla@LVCM.com.
<Nathan> #2?
<Anne_Marble> Where do I change my Yahoo preferences so I dont get junk from them?
<Nathan> I think that I will
<Joel_A> same here, nathan...joelarellano@hotmail.com
<@SLViehl> sign in, I think, Anne
<@SLViehl> BJ would know
<pkurilla> Just let me know which heroes you're interested in.....
<Anne_Marble> Oh, I remember #2 getting killed, wasn't that where people could call in and vote?
<DragonDancer> sign in, go to options for Yahoo
<pkurilla> That was it, Anne.
<Joel_A> same here, nathan.
<Anne_Marble> Yahoo Delivers, maybe htat's it
<Robert> Options maybe
<JamiJo> Marketing Preferences, I think
<@SLViehl> Okay, Catherine is going to pass, so Peggy, do you have a question for the group?
<Joel_A> pkurilla, any major changes on Jimmy?
<pkurilla> Sure do.
<BJ Steeves> Anne, need to go to your account profile and make the changes there.
<Anne_Marble> Good, don't have anything on Yahoo Delivers
<@SLViehl> Sock it to us.
<pkurilla> Nope. Same old same old for Jimmy.
<pkurilla> Magic is forbidden not non-existent. Just forbidden. And there s a police (sort of) to keep an eye out and make sure no magic is done. What kind of gadgets/doohickeys would they have in their work?
<Joel_A> thanks, pkurilla
<@SLViehl> magic geiger counters
<Katherine> Account Information/Marketing Preferences
<JamiJo> maybe they use magic to make sure that magic isn't used?
<Robert> Magic detectors and magic sniffing dogs.
<pkurilla> I've already cribbed a Phantom Zone Projector. (grin)
<@SLViehl> oooh, dogs, I like that Robert
<Joel_A> "hounds": magically-talented people who are brutally beaten to sense magic users.
<Kaelle> Magic sniffers
<Catherine> Magic detector vans with magic-radars spinnin gon top.
<Anne_Marble> Telescopes that can see magic
<JamiJo> powder that's power reactive... can tell if something was enchanted / altered...
<@SLViehl> Mages turned informants
<Sarah Danger> No, cooler than dogs. Dragons, maybe.
<@SLViehl> magic-detecting birds, maybe?
<Scott> What tech level is the world?
<JamiJo> yeah! birds!
<pkurilla> No Dragons. But there is something that might work... the fang-cats I was thinking of.
<Anne_Marble> Euwww, informatants, I love it.
<@SLViehl> wait, that was some else's plot last week
<Robert> They're already used to training dope sniffing dogs, so detecting the stuff used in doing magic is retraining the same dog new substance.
<Steven> neural net over the city to sense mental powers (if that's used in the magic)
<pkurilla> Scott--overall, it's magical tech, say 19th century or so.
<Sarah Danger> or lizards! (pre-birds)
<pkurilla> It's only in this one country that magic is forbidden.
<@SLViehl> crystals the citizens must wear which turn a certain color when exposed to magic
<Joel_A> magic detecting children who are kidnapped from their parents, brainwashed, and sent out to detect and, if necessary, kill magic users.
<cherylp> 19th c. the chemistry suggestions should work well
<Kaelle> Ooh, Sheila, telltales!
<BJ Steeves> Like a radiation badge.
<@SLViehl> Euww, Joel, like a magic hitler youth core.
<Katherine> You'd have lots of smuggling in the border regions, and very aggressive customs patrols.
<Scott> Well, that could be cool: Jules Verne and H.G Wells kind of gizmos to detect and neutralize magic. Lots of rivits and steam and whirling gears
<Joel_A> exactly, sheila. but not voluntary
<pkurilla> LOL I'll have to get all these suggestions from the transcript! I can't scribble fast enough.
<Robert> Forensic detection, litmus paper stuff lab analysis tracing magical emissions back to WHO cast it.
<@SLViehl> keep them flowing, people, you're doing great
<Anne_Marble> Like those drug tests parents buy to tell if their kids have been "near" drugs. They're really sensitive, they give off positive results even if they were just in a room where pot was being smoked.
<Katherine> Might also have infiltrators from other countries helping the pro-magic resistance.
<Steven> techniques to recover magical DNA?
<Robert> Eugenics groups working on detecting genes of magic users to create a secret blacklist
<BJ Steeves> Magic dowser, like they do for water.
<pkurilla> Katherine--YES. There's the subplot I was missing.
<@SLViehl> Architecture -- I'm thinking the lamb's blood over the thresholds kind of thing
<Sarah Danger> OOh, you could run magical residue like DNA electrophoresis!
<@SLViehl> something in the dwellings that triggers when magic is performed.
<Sarah Danger> (magicalphoresis?)
<Nathan> Just a suggestion for getting suggestions...Copy and paste into a word program
<BJ Steeves> Kinda like aiport security gates.
<pkurilla> Just to give a bit more info, the story starts with a magical alarm going off that none fo the officers has ever heard before.
<Kaelle> A siren that goes off
<@SLViehl> Like a five-alarm fire?
<pkurilla> They trace it to something happening in the Phantom Zone (tm), borrowed for point of reference only.
<Sarah Danger> Restrain them by attaching things that explode when they come in close contact with a magical field
<pkurilla> Yes, Sarah.
<pkurilla> er, Sheila.
<Robert> If using magic changes brain structure, flag suspicious brains on hospital records and brain scans
<Scott> Hmmm, Sort of like a Fahrenheit 451, except with magic instead of books.
<@SLViehl> Subplot -- you could have people frame other people by planting magic somethings on them
<Katherine> 19th century, Robert. No brain scans. But lots of phrenologists!
<pkurilla> And Our Hero (sm) wants to restore magic.
<pkurilla> Good idea Sheila! More subplots!
<Robert> Oh sorry, I thought it was modern tech. <G>
<@SLViehl> sure, power corrupts in any society.
<pkurilla> But Our Hero (sm) is one of those police.....
<Steven> desires conflicting with duty?
<@SLViehl> (thinking Logan's Run -- Michael York as a Sandman)
<Robert> Some simple things. Undercover hookers trying to pick up guys for tantric magic. They look good but they'll bust you.
<Steven> why does he want to restore magic?
<Catherine> Problem with genes - remember people did not know about genes proper till early part of 2othc
<pkurilla> Got it in one, STeven.
<pkurilla> Will have to watch that again, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Great flick. Major for the time period.
<Robert> But fingerprints and blood typing work.
<Sarah Danger> Subplot -- somebody nice uses magic to save the life of dying loved one and is now on the run from the law
<cherylp> How do you cut and paste in here? The highlight keeps going off when I try.
<Catherine> Mendel came up with late 19thc, but not well known until later
<pkurilla> Because all the other countries have it and he thinks one of them will invade his soon... and they'll be devenseless.
<Nonny> Control key plus C, I believe.
<Anne_Marble> Select and press Control-C
<@SLViehl> cherylp, I can e-mail you a copy of the transcript, or you can get it from the transcript board
<Steven> yep
<BJ Steeves> Highlight what you want, ctrl-c for copy, ctrl-v for paste.
<Scott> Periodic scares directed at groups people think might be involved with magic. Like the anti-Catholic and Irish and Masonic movements in 19th century US
<cherylp> Okay, Sheila, I'll get it from transcript board
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Peggy?
<pkurilla> THANK YOU, lots of wonderful suggestions!
<Robert> Irish and Catholics would be prime targets. <G>
<cherylp> Yeah. She might try reading Russell Garrett's Lord Darcy books.
<Nonny> Um, Sheila, are questions about the marketability of an idea allowed here?
<@SLViehl> I would go for what hasn't been done. Look at your world building, see what you can use, Peggy
<BJ Steeves> That's a lot of blarney, Robert!
<@SLViehl> Sure Nonny
<Nonny> OK, then can you add me to the list?
<Nonny>
<@SLViehl> I'll add you to the list
<Nonny> Thanks!
<Joel_A> Wow. Full house tonight
<@SLViehl> JamiJo, have you got a question for us tonight?
<JamiJo> yup
<@SLViehl> hand it over
<Katherine> I'm next?
<cherylp> Yes, Peggy.
<@SLViehl> Yep, you're next Katherine
<Katherine> (After Jami Jo, I mean.)
<JamiJo> my villians just turned into pain/blood mages... I need help giving them ideas for ways to torture my main character....
<@SLViehl> right
<Venus> Oh mad fun
<Steven> hey
<Steven> Robert, she's paging you...
<pkurilla> You've come to the right place.
<Anne_Marble> Yay!!!
<Scott> Make him watch TV.
<@SLViehl> Oh Robert
<Nonny> Oh, this'll be fun ...
<Robert> Acupuncture done badly, deliberately for pain. Acupressure.
<Venus> what technological level is your society at?
<JamiJo> she's the daughter of the femme villain, and the intended bride for the homme villian sorry about the bad french
<Robert> Septum piercing.
<Kaelle> Lots of little blade cuts
<Anne_Marble> You might want to look at sites about medieval torture. Those are really icky.
<pkurilla> Scrub the skin just raw with sandpaper (or equivalent), then pour salt water over it.
<Venus> chinese water torture
<Steven> death of a thousand cuts
<@SLViehl> Deprivation torture. Food, water, light, sleep, etc.
<Venus> Tape their eyelids open
<Robert> Go for facial nerves and go for thousand cuts.
<JamiJo> 16th - 17th century? shrug
<Venus> brb
<DragonDancer> the rack, thumbscrews, and the like
<@SLViehl> Do you want maiming torture, JamiJo, or mild?
<Robert> Hands and feet are good sensitive places for microtorture. Disjoint fingers, grind joints.
<Nathan> Cat 'o nine tails
<pkurilla> Read any good book on the Inquisition--they got real creative with torture.
<JamiJo> a way to produce a LOT of pain but a slooooow death
<cherylp> The usual---get at person through family members.
<Anne_Marble> Anything involving gravity, like hanging the person from ropes over something -- they can only hold themselves up so long
<Kaelle> fingernails, toenails, torn off
<Robert> Cut a few major tendons to immobilize them and then start working through nervous system.
<Sarah Danger> Branding
<cherylp> BRB. Teapot going off.
<Nonny> Remove one body part at a time.
<BJ Steeves> Or read some these transcripts!
<@SLViehl> Have the mages summon up the victim's worst nightmare, then lock her in a room with it.
<pkurilla> Well, crucifixion does work for long slow death if you don't break the legs.
<Sarah Danger> Ooh, good one Sheila!
<Nonny> Oooh, that's good, Sheila.
<DragonDancer> burn
<Robert> Branding's great, so is The Harrow from Kafka's story - thousands of needles slowly piercing out little designs.
<Venus> lots of bugs
<JamiJo> they're adding their power to the mage trying to overthrow the king and seize power, so they're trying to get as much out of her as possible...
<BarGnat> Don't forget about psychological torture, Jami.... like taking control of her dreams through blood-magic
<Robert> Oh good old Room 101 whatever the phobia is.
<@SLViehl> Small, yes, Venus, I like that
<Sarah Danger> Ants and honey...
<@SLViehl> Torturous dreams, excellent
<pkurilla> Wups.... company just arrived.
<Katherine> Lots of hungry bugs.
<Robert> If you're going to damage the eyes, cut off eyelids but let the eyes dry out.
<@SLViehl> No problem, Peggy, night
<pkurilla> Need to go. Thanks again for all your help!
<Nonny> Do they care if she's unharmed or not?
<Anne_Marble> I came up with an elaborate torture where the torturers drugged the main victim slightly so that he watched his family being tortured -- he knew what was happening but was just a bit too high to care or to stop it
<Venus> Oh! Feed them hallucinogenics and then have them vomit
<Joel_A> night, pkurilla!
<Nathan> Bye Peggy
<Nonny> Bye!
<Venus> night peggy!
<@SLViehl> Witnessing the torture of others can be awful. Good psych job
<Anne_Marble> In the back of his mind, however, he realized what was happening and dreaded what he would feel when the drug wore off.
<BarGnat> night Peggy
<JamiJo> Oh, Mary, that is WONDERFUL... completely forgot abouttorture in dreams dreams... and since she will be hiding from them, they can get to her thru her dreams..
<cherylp> Bye, Peggy.
<Catherine> bye peggy
<Venus> Feed them hallucinogenics and do anything scary...
<JamiJo> by peggy
<Robert> But for security reasons hamstring them if you're going that route, because they'll fight if they get out!
<DragonDancer> adios, peggy
<BarGnat> yup
<Sarah Danger> Create replicas of loved ones and keep killing them over and over...
<Anne_Marble> Hint: I think the dentist used a bit too mucn nitrous on me that time. ;->
<BarGnat> And since it's her "family" that's the villains.....
<Nathan> Torture somebody close to him/her, while s/he is watching
<JamiJo> even better.... yay... :)
<Robert> There was also nailing the chap to the chair in Serpent and the Rainbow, quick and simple, for him to then watch his family get tortured.
<Nonny> I read a good one in a book somewhere; they would cut the abdomen open and let the intenstines hang out until she died ...
<Venus> Any sort of dental surgery is great
<@SLViehl> The dream mages allow her to wake up for just a few seconds, enough to make her aware she's going to dream again, then zap
<DragonDancer> acid?
<BJ Steeves> OR have a "family" member do the torturing.
<Venus> don't let them sleep
<Nonny> Ooooh, I like that, BJ.
<BarGnat> I LIKE that one, Sheila
<Anne_Marble> In a previous c hat, someone suggested reanimating dead loved ones and forcing the corpses to rape the hero :-/
<@SLViehl> Twisted, BJ, but good
<cherylp> Boy, and we're all such nice people, too. Think about what really bad ones dream up! <g>
<Anne_Marble> Ooo, yeah, Sheila, there was something like that in Sandman, it was horrid.
<Venus> hot wax their eyelashes and then pull them out
<Robert> That's a good one anne. So is anything the victim trusts coming back as tortuerrer.
<BJ Steeves> At least the victum sees it that way.
<@SLViehl> Writers are naturally sick people
<DragonDancer> electric shocks to prevent sleep
<Nonny> Too true, Sheila.
<Nonny> Especially fantasy writers.
<Nonny> g
<Robert> Genital electric shock.
<JamiJo> eww, no, too much for this one Robert...
<Kaelle> (shudder) Robert!
<cherylp> Owwww, Robert!
<Robert> And lighten up sometimes. Always give them a little hope it'll end. Always give them some idea it could get Lots Worse.
<Venus> I saw that in a movie robert...it was pretty nasty
<@SLViehl> Have the victim be able to just barely avoid torture as long as she stays awake -- on tiptoe on a chair, noose around the neck
<Venus> I think it was "Barb Wire"
<JamiJo> oooh that's good too, sheila...
<BarGnat> Don't forget, folks, it's her mother who's eager to do all these evil things to her
<Venus> OH - shatter her kneecaps
<Catherine> Or you could pour hot wax on their legs and then rip it off....hang on a minute...
<BarGnat> Venus: "The Evil that Men Do" ???
<@SLViehl> A mother would know her child's weaknesses, I think
<Anne_Marble> The Medieval torturers had a device where they put the person's face between two things, and then they tightened it. Eventually it crushed the skull. But even the beginning was bad because your teeth got ground together.
<@SLViehl> (hating this mother already)
<Venus> Or break their elbows - that's probab;y one of the most painful things that's ever happened to me
<Robert> Liposuctionw ithout anesthesia?
<cherylp> Wait, Catherine, don't we do that?(g)
<Venus> .
<Nathan> Back in the medevil days one way torture was done by placing the person under a wooden board and putting weights on top of it...when vistitors came through town they had tem sit on the board for a short period of time...it's a very slow way to kill...I believe that he history book said about a month
<@SLViehl> If you decide to break kneecaps, e-mail me, I can give you chapter and verse on the pain.
<JamiJo> hee hee hee I'll post some chapters for critiques once I clean it up some...
<Robert> Pressing was traditional American
<JamiJo> Thank you sheila, i will probably take you up on that
<Nonny> Oh, yeah, that's how they killed that guy in the Salem Witch Trials, right? re: weights and board
<@SLViehl> I always thought the worst torture was one the Aztecs did -- forcing the Spanish to drink molten gold.
<Joel_A> magically transmit the pain of a difficult birth that last for days....
<Anne_Marble> Read the beginning of "A Cavern of Black Ice" by J. V. Jones.
<Steven> oooh. "you want it so bad? here ya go"
<cherylp> Nice folks, the Aztecs....not!
<@SLViehl> Exactly, Steven
<Nonny> Oh, I'd not heard of that, Sheila! [scribbles]
<BJ Steeves> Force swallowing of glass works wonders.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last gruesome suggestions for JamiJo?
<Venus> pull off their fingernails with plyers (ewwwww)
<Steven> Just one.....the Comfy Chair!
<Steven> (sorry. I just had to say it at the end.)
<@SLViehl> I would go for subtle, slow-acting torture if you can, JamiJo
<Katherine> The Aztecs were also the ones who sacrificed human hearts that were still beating.
<DragonDancer> make them listen to horrible screeches
<Robert> Worse, heated wires under them. Burns, small tiny nasty burns in sensitive spots.
<@SLViehl> got lots of good suggestions tonight
<JamiJo> LOL no, that's the WRITER's torture, Steven...
<Steven> oh, right.
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Nathan> shadrach meshack and abendigo
<Steven> hehehe
<@SLViehl> lol
<JamiJo> yes, thanks everyone!
<Anne_Marble> The ancient thingies had one where they had exactly one year to do whatever they wanted with someone who killed a family member. They could treat the person nice for 364 days then kill them on the last or something. Lots of mind play.
<Nathan> (put them in a blazing furnace)
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all, you're totally twisted. Katherine, you're up, DragonDancer, you'll be after Katherine
<Robert> I love that culture, the Ancient Thingies. <G>
<Katherine> <shudder> That's a tough one to follow, JamiJo...
<Katherine> Anyway, my plot just got enormously more complicated because I'm discovering all kinds of moral ambiguity.
<JamiJo> Sorry katherine! My villains made me do it.
<Robert> That's fun. You know what your theme is?
<Katherine> I'm trying to decide if my antagonist needs to die in the end, or if he can redeem himself.
<BJ Steeves> Morality?...What's that?
<Steven> do both.
<Robert> He knows. They either grow oor they don't.
<Nonny> Depends on how "evil" he is, Katherine.
<Steven> have him die while redeeming.
<cherylp> I'm always for redemption if it can be done.
<Scott2> Redemption usually sells a lot better
<Kaelle> Hmm. Just decided that myself, Katherine, He does both
<DragonDancer> Darth Vader?
<Katherine> He's a parish priest in Renaissance Venice, who's family is all tangled up in nasty magic that he knows nothing about.
<Venus> Ok -does he find out about it?
<Anne_Marble> Redemption is cool
<Katherine> He ends up starting a witch hunt, in which he nearly becomes a victim himself.
<Sarah Danger> Redemptions deaths can be really heartbreaking.
<Robert> Nice comeuppance.
<Nathan> Was the Antagonist originally good or has he been bad all his life?
<@SLViehl> That kind of antagonist, I'd have sacrifice himself to save someone he would have let die at the beginning of the book
<BarGnat> But what if he sacrifices his life as part of his redemption?
<Robert> I'm weird. I prefer redemptions having to make amends and live with it.
<Nonny> Does he mean to do good, or just ended up royally screwing things up/
<Katherine> He's good by the standards of the time. But not by our standards.
<cherylp> Strikes me as he's a good guy who essentially does bad things for his belief
<Katherine> Yes, exactly Cheryl.
<Venus> well, if he's good by the standards of the society he's in I would have him be redeemed
<Nathan> Redeemed
<@SLViehl> The tricky thing about redemption is, sometimes you end up not killing anyone, and the villain becomes a Mary Sue of sorts. He needs to suffer horribly, at least
<Katherine> I'm trying to decide if he ends up burning at the stake, or if he sees the error of his ways and becomes a reformer in the Church.
<cherylp> What you're looking at is a change of mind and heart, Katherine.
<Venus> Yes sheila - suffering is always good
<Nonny> Historicals are a pain because you have to get inside the mindset of the past culture ... what they thought was good we may think now is complete evil. :P
<Katherine> Of course, he could get burned at the stake for being a reformer.
<cherylp> If he doesn't do that, he won't have changed at all.
<@SLViehl> What really happened in that time, Katherine, to men in his situation?
<@SLViehl> Didn't they usually get torched?
<cherylp> If they were over, Sheila.
<Robert> I like the quiet heroism of his then having to keep his mouth shut and help hide other victims from the purge when he no longer believes in it, the Infiltrated Nazis sort of heroism.
<cherylp> ooops, that's overt
<Katherine> As an informer who turned other bad people in, he could do pretty well for himself.
<Nonny> Maybe he does get burned at the stake, and then his "evil" family rescues him ... =9
<Venus> Yeah -but then he doesn't get his
<Katherine> As a reformer, he could get torched.
<@SLViehl> So he's a smart guy.
<Robert> Loudly recanting everything he believes and silently doing the opposite and saving lives.
<BarGnat> Just don't make him too much of a goody-two-shoes
<@SLViehl> It stands to reason that an intelligent man would not sacrifice himself if he could use his talents in the opposite direction
<cherylp> Been done before, what Robert said. Works.
<Steven> Is the magic his family is involved in really nasty or does he just think so at first?
<Nonny> Yeah, that's what I'm wondering,.
<Robert> He can't buck the system but he might save a child.
<cherylp> BRB, need tea.
<Katherine> His older brother accidentally destroyed the Venetian fleet by summoning a djinn to show off.
<Nonny> Ouch.
<@SLViehl> Ouch
<Robert> I get tired of punishments and I get tired of vengeances versus responsibility and making up for what you've done, the hard way.
<Joel_A> Cool!
<Steven> oopsie
<Anne_Marble> Have you ever seen "Mark of the Demon"? Herbert Lom played a witchburner who really believed what he was doing. It kind of went in the reverse of your idea.
<Katherine> LOL, Steven!
<Robert> What did HE do?
<Katherine> What did who do, Robert?
<Nonny> The antagonist?
<Robert> The guy himself, not his family or some other people he couldn't control but he himself?
<Venus> I think he should die to pay for what he did and for what his brother did - so he takes all suspicion away from his family because he knows he deserves to die
<Anne_Marble> Herbert Lom was great in that part -- but I thought the switch from well-meaning cautious witchburner to dirty old man was too fast.
<@SLViehl> I think a lot of this the character himself will decide -- based on what he would do, according to his personality.
<Katherine> He himself has been a pretty exemplary priest and (at the beginning) is pretty much unaware of the dark side of his family.
<Nonny> God, this sounds more like a main character than an antagonist. =9
<@SLViehl> I keep trying to kill some of my antagonists, and they just find ways to get around me.
<Nonny> ping
<Steven> okay, but what makes him be a suspect in the witch hunts?
<Kaelle> Does he care for his family?
<Venus> pong
<Steven> just the fact that he's related to the others?
<Nonny> lol, Venus.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Katherine?
<BarGnat> oops. recess is over for this kid.... no more fun 'n games tonight. 'Night, all.
<Robert> So martyr him but let him do a little good before he croaks, let him die an innocent.
<Katherine> He starts the witch hunts out of fear of my MC, who's a wild talent mage.
<Steven> later Mary
<Robert> My view he's NOT responsible for his brother.
<Nonny> Reminds me, Anne Bishop's PILLARS OF THE WORLD has a great character who starts an Inquisition.
<Joel_A> night, bar
<@SLViehl> I would base your decision on the character himself. Let him guide you into the direction he needs to go.
<Katherine> But he turns out to have latent talent himself.
<Nathan> Bye BarGnat
<@SLViehl> Night BarGnat
<Robert> Bye BarGnat
<Venus> bye bargnat!
<Anne_Marble> Bye BarGnat
<Nonny> Very sympathetic character, but does enough evil that you want him to get his comeuppance.
<DragonDancer> bye, BarGnat!
<Catherine> bye Bargnat
<Robert> Actually yeah, for starting up the witch hunt his suffering from it's good and ironic.
<Katherine> Yes, exactly, Nonny.
<@SLViehl> Life isn't black and white, and certainly not in that time period. See where he takes you, Katherine
<Nonny> If that helps any.
<Katherine> Lots to think about. Thanks for all the suggestions!
<Robert> Yeah. What really happens will come out of waht he decides to do!
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some great ideas. DragonDancer, do you have a question for the group?
<DragonDancer> pass-- we kinda answered mine already! <g>
<@SLViehl> We're so good that way
<@SLViehl> Joel, how about you?
<Nonny> Welcome!
<Joel_A> yes. hold on a second. i just lost it
<@SLViehl> Everybody freeze. Don't step on Joel's question.
<@SLViehl> lol
<Kaelle> lol
<Steven> hehe
<Robert> Looks under the cat
<DragonDancer> (g)
<Nonny> g
<Joel_A> I'm debating if my MC should release the gods in the middle of the novel or at the end. Opinions?
<Joel_A> And I found it underneath Sheila's foot
<Steven> the purpose of releasing the gods is....?
<Venus> Ummm....can I have a little more background?
<Nonny> What happens when he releases the gods?
<Kaelle> When would it create more problems?
<JamiJo> you can have them muck things up if they are available in the middle...
<@SLViehl> How epic will the release be, and is there stuff the Gods can do while they're out?
<Robert> Depends on the focus of the book. What would be the main conflict if he did release them in the middle?
<Nathan> Why would he want to release the Gods
<Nathan> what type of gods?
<Nonny> Maybe these aren't gods, but demons.
<BJ Steeves> Are they retrievable? then do both.
<@SLViehl> Pandora's box type gods
<Venus> LOL
<Steven> and is releasing the gods the main point of the story or just a side story or a "on the way to something else" kind of thing?
<Joel_A> for the why: to right what he considers wrongs, including the promised resurrection of his lover and his family members.
<@SLViehl> nice idea, BJ
<Shelley> hi guys
<@SLViehl> Hi Shelley, welcome
<Joel_A> hey, callendra/shelley
<Kaelle> Hi Shelley
<Venus> Well, then he should resurrect them asap and they shouldn't do what they were supposed to do <EG>
<Nonny> So releasing the gods will resurrect his lover and family?
<Venus> hiya shelley!
<Nathan> Maybe he releases them in the middle but they don't reall get realed until the end
<@SLViehl> I love it when something big is let out of the bag and then does the exact opposite of what you'd expect
<Katherine> Trying to defeat death never works. He's about to have a whole heap of trouble...
<DragonDancer> what happens if they're resurrected wrong?
<Joel_A> as drastically change his society: eliminate slavery (he's a slave), destroy the elves, bring "equality" to the social classes.
<Nonny> Is there a "catch" in the resurrection...
<Nonny> ...King's Pet Sematary springs to mind.
<Sarah Danger> The gods bring them back and they come back WRONG....
<Venus> me too sheila...especially when it does something completely unexpected
<@SLViehl> the genie out of the bottle -- he'd promise anything to get out
<Joel_A> interesting point, nathan. thanks.
<Nonny> Sarah -- that's what happens in PET SEMATARY.
<Robert> The gods bring them and a lot of other dead people back and the dead people do not hold modern values, they're still themselves.
<Nathan> What typ of release...Release as in the Genie at the end of disneys Alladdin or like letting the genie out of the lamp
<Nathan> ?
<Nathan> typ=type
<Joel_A> EXACTLY, sheila.The god that's promising this is the God of Prophecy...and the Trickster
<Venus> Or the gods aren't really all powerful gods at all
<Robert> They can vote again, not just in Chicago. Like voting in blue laws against playing cards, singing and dancing.
<@SLViehl> Obviously the gods were imprisoned/captured for a reason. I'd work from there
<Venus> Given all this information, I'm voting for middle
<Joel_A> Yes, Sheila. They're the descendants of the primal beings. they tried to "war" against their parents and got imprisoned for it.
<@SLViehl> Old Man Coyote always did the monkey's paw kind of deal. Give you exactly what you wanted, but at a price.
<Nonny> Does he make the MC his pawn?
<BJ Steeves> Does the MC have any influence on the Gods? or is it a "crap shoot"?
<Nonny> Do what I want or you'll never get your family back?
<@SLViehl> I like the middle too Venus.
<Steven> yep. lots of fun stuff can happen if it happens in the middle.
<Kaelle> Middle, too
<Robert> Yeah, you'll need time for that to develop if it's got the usual trickster backlash.
<Nonny> Yup, if you're going to have that kind of effect, middle is the place to go.
<@SLViehl> You can run with this one, Joel. Would have serious impact on the remainder of the book.
<Nonny> Unless, of course, you're writing a trilogy ...
<Joel_A> also, the god promises to restore the "natural" magical environment, which has been warped by human and dwarven technology
<DragonDancer> middle, definitely
<Joel_A> thanks, sheila.
<@SLViehl> And it ties in with BJ's suggestion of resurrection/put'em back
<Nonny> Does he, Joel?
<Joel_A> NONNY! How'd you know ?
<Venus> Oh yes - the god must wreak all sorts of havoc
<Katherine> Uh oh. I'm starting to really not trust these guys.
<Nonny> lol, lucky guess.
<Nonny> If it's a tril, you could get away with doing it at the end.
<Venus> agreed nonny
<Venus> because it's the middle of the big story
<Nonny> The problem with that is that people who buy the book brand new are going to want to find out what happens, and they want to know what happens NOW.
<Nonny> *if you put it at the end.
<Joel_A> actually, nonny, the gods returning to the world is the start of the trilogy. but only if this book sells.
<Nonny> OK, so you want to make the first novel standalone, but where you can "expand" into a tril?
<@SLViehl> You could work it as a trilogy with the gods in the middle as long as you avoid the big cliffhanger ending
<Kaelle> Still vote fo r middle
<Joel_A> otherwise, it has the MC and the survivors exactly what will be the changes
<Nonny> What Sheila said,.
<@SLViehl> book one would be the initial clash, cause and effect
<@SLViehl> book two would be revenge of the gods
<Nonny> I hate cliffhanger endings unless I have the second book handy. g
<Venus> yah sheila - v true
<@SLViehl> book three is stuff the gods back in the bottle
<Nathan> me too Nonny
<Joel_A> people have been reading my mind
<@SLViehl> classic trilogy premise with this type of bad news gods released thing
<Scott> But when the gods go back in the bottle, all they did is undone--the lover is dead again.
<Nonny> That's why we write fantasy, Joel.
<Kaelle> (scribbles ideas from Sheila's very succint (sp?) plots)
<@SLViehl> Ouch, good point, Scott
<Steven> oooh. nice, Scott.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Joel?
<Scott> Major decision for the protagonist
<Joel_A> thanks, y'all!
<Nonny> Yes, start writing -- NOW.
<Steven> give the MC a choice.
<@SLViehl> I like the middle. Less of a cliff-hanger for the reader.
<Nonny>
<Joel_A> LOL, Nonny. Have 40 pages already :0
<Joel_A>
<Nathan> yeah sure...no problem
<Nonny> Great! Are you doing the March Madness?
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some solid directions. Jenny, do you have a question for the group?
<Joel_A> Gods, no, Nonny. I'm not crazy
<Nonny> It's helping me get my dead butt up and work on my trilogy that went nowhere for a year ...
<@SLViehl> Whoops, Jenny, still here?
<Steven> lol Joel
<Joel_A> LOL, Steven.
<Joel_A> she gone, sheila
<@SLViehl> I think we lost Jenny.
<Venus>
<@SLViehl> Venus, how about you?
<Venus> Nope - I'm just here to listen to other people
<Joel_A> isn't nonny suppose to be on the board?
<@SLViehl> Okay, cherylp, got a question for us?
<Nonny> Did the board kick her?
<cherylp> My question is this--we've been discussing quest in fantasy. What do you do if you have a series of novels you've been working on for years and you like the novels but fear they're too derivative. Give it up, or try to make it work?
<DragonDancer> I have to go, guys. it's been fun!
<Steven> later Dragon
<Venus> bye DD!
<Kaelle> Bye DD
<Joel_A> night, DD!
<@SLViehl> night DD
<BJ Steeves> G'Nite!
<@SLViehl> Derivative of what, cherylp?
<Nathan> Bye DragonDancer
<Steven> If most of the stuff is good, try and tweak it. Make little subtle changes.
<Robert> If you love them, make them work! Night, DD
<Kaelle> What makes you think they're derivative?
<Venus> cheryl - that's a hard one. There are about a zillion derivative quest fantasies out there doing VERY well
<cherylp> Derivative of many of the quest novels I've seen done since I started the books! (g)
<Joel_A> yeah, cherylp? of Secret Text? LOTR? Darkover? Pern?
<Nonny> .
<Nonny> brb ... the board seems to have kicked me.
<@SLViehl> You may have put a spin on it no one else has, cherylp
<Venus> cheryl - do the books offer something that you haven't read yet?
<Robert> The more different sources, the less likely it's derivative and the more likely it's just your view of the classic theme.
<cherylp> Probably LOTR more than anything
<Venus> Can you easily change the MC's occupation so s/he's not a farmboy or something else common?
<Anne_Marble> Make it work. Find twists. Lots of the best-selling fantasy novels have similar elements but are very different in some major way. (For example, Goodkind and the S&M thingie)
<Joel_A> or a different slant on the traditional fantasy? Bradley's Mist of Avalon, for example.
<Steven> If you're not sure, then I wouldn't worry too much.
<Kaelle> You have elves, dwarves, etc?
<Steven> you can tweak it.
<Venus> Goodkind's S&M thing = ewwwwww
<cherylp> I would hope I had, but not sure.
<Nonny> There we go.
<Katherine> If you've been working on it for years, you're probably a better writer than when you started, too.
<cherylp> No elves, no dwarves.
<@SLViehl> One way to find out is to submit
<Nonny> What was the question?
<Nonny> (sorry, stupid groupboard kicked me)
<Joel_A> "My question is this--we've been discussing quest in fantasy. What do you do if you have a series of novels you've been working on for years and you like the novels but fear they're too derivative. Give it up, or try to make it work?"
<@SLViehl> thanks Joel
<Robert> Soak some of Tolkein's classic sources. Wagner and Norse mythology and Celtic mythology
<Kaelle> (hands Nonny bruise lotion)
<Joel_A> you're welcome.
<Nonny> lol, Kaelle.
<Venus> Cheryl - why not post a synopsis and get a few people to take a look at it?
<Joel_A> LOL, kae
<Steven> yeah. go back to the "source"
<@SLViehl> Excellent suggestion, Venus
<BJ Steeves> Can make the MC a little rougher character, like a Thomas Covenant.
<Venus> thank you (G)
<cherylp> That's a good idea, Venus. I'll work on that.
<Robert> Read through and filter the derivations out: make changes in directions YOU like better than the source material.
<@SLViehl> Get some opinions from the board
<Joel_A> how about the POV is a child?
<Nonny> What Robert said.
<Nonny> First person, Joel?
<cherylp> God, BJ! That may be what I'm afraid of. Too much like Covenant.
<Joel_A> up to cherylp, nonny
<Nonny> I've tried, it's nearly impossible to write from the child's pov.
<BJ Steeves> Sorry, bout that.
<Robert> If it's like Covenant and turns out better I'm all for it. SOMEONE needs to answer that leper!
<Nonny> Either it sounds so much like a child that people think its a kids novel, or it sounds like an adult writing as a kid.
<Venus> cheryl - I've read oodles of those fantasy trilogies, so if you post it I'll definitely let you know (G)
<Joel_A> at this point, nonny. you'll get better
<Venus> But my guess is you've got something unique enough
<Nonny> Thanks, Joel.
<@SLViehl> You do want to establish yourself as an original, even if you're working a classic theme. So take a hard look at everything you've done.
<cherylp> Okay, venus!
<cherylp> Okay, Sheila.
<Nonny> If you do it well, a good story can get past a cliche, I've found.
<Nonny> You just have to twist it around a little
<@SLViehl> See what you've done that no one else has. Up the wattage on those portions.
<Robert> The difference between classic and cliche is how well it's done. That's my view.
<Nonny> [twists at manuscript's neck and accidentally breaks it]
<Nonny> Ooops...
<Nonny>
<Steven> yeah. and how "in your face" it is.
<Robert> Memorable original characters, original self consistent setting and magical system.
<@SLViehl> Every plot that's written has already been done at least ten times
<cherylp> Well <cringe> I have an Evil Lord.
<Joel_A> yeah. look at a particular point in the MS and think, "hmmm, what if the character did this instead?"
<Nonny> So?
<Venus> doesn't everyone? LOL
<cherylp> LOL
<Nonny> Make him sympathetic.
<Anne_Marble> Does the story have different races or nations? There are a lot of potential threads that are never followed up in most fantasy. Like the way all the races hate each other
<@SLViehl> I was married to an Evil Lord. They're a dime a dozen.
<Steven> lol
<Joel_A> LOL, sheila.
<Nonny> LOL, Sheila, too true.
<@SLViehl> But your Evil Lord may be like no one elses.
<Kaelle> Evil lordette
<Kaelle> lol
<Robert> Hey, my Lord of Evil is a piece of architecture! I think that's fairly original!
<Nonny> lol
<cherylp> Yeah, Anne. Proud of the job I did on the different races.
<Nonny> Yep, Robert.
<Venus> If what you've done is derivative, but makes everyone think "this is Thomas Covenant but cooler" it's not a bad thing
<Joel_A> Hmmm. What about an evil LADY? (e.g., Brothers of the Dragon series)
<@SLViehl> Heck, you can have an evil canary if you want
<Venus> That's the entire reason I'm slogging through George RR Martin right now
<Steven> hard to get eviler than Jagiellon.
<Nonny> Has anyone seen the Evil Overlord list?
<Katherine> How about an Evil Lord like the guy in Shrek?
<@SLViehl> The point is, your Evil Lord is an original.
<Nonny> I find it great for avoiding cliches ...
<Joel_A> Oh, here's one (and you animal lovers better not scream): have a sentient, evil CAT
<Venus> LOVE the evil overlord list
<Robert> Ick. Sheila, please write the Evil Canary!
<@SLViehl> I always though Tweetie Bird was evil.
<Anne_Marble> I always wondered about that Tweetie.
<Robert> For once the cat who got it is a good guy!
<Nonny> Me too, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> SNAP
<@SLViehl> though=thought
<Nonny> I akways wanted Sylvester to catch that damned lisping bird ...
<Kaelle> Hated that Tweetie. Rooted for Sylvester.
<@SLViehl> jinx, Anne
<Anne_Marble>
<cherylp> The Evil Lord is more of a metaphor for my MC. Something evil happened in her life she has to get over. She thinks she's the evil one
<JamiJo> hey! why can't a bird be the good guy... sniff
<Venus> See - that's cool right there cheryl!
<@SLViehl> Oh, cool, I like that cherylp
<Nonny> Ooooh, neat, Cheryl.
<Nonny> She thinks he's evil but he really isn't?
<Kaelle> that's good, Cheryl
<@SLViehl> The heroine thinks she's the villain
<Steven> that's interesting, Cheryl
<Venus> Definitely not eddings or Jordan
<Nathan> On the contrary I root for Tweetie
<Nonny> Good stuff there.
<Venus> Very xena
<Robert> You've got your Twist
<Nonny> Sounds like my novel ... written in first person and the guy the MC thinks is the bad guy really isn't ...
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for cherylp?
<cherylp> Written long before Xena!
<Joel_A> that's a start. now look at her companions. any way to twist them up?
<Venus> LOL
<@SLViehl> I'd post some things on the board. Get some crits on it.
<Robert> Finish it, pound it good, send it around till it sticks!
<@SLViehl> And submit, submit, submit
<Kaelle> "twistin' twistin', twistin' the night away"
<Nonny> What Sheila said.
<cherylp> Thanks for all your suggestions!
<Nonny> Oh yeah, Kaelle, you've got it. =D
<@SLViehl> Steven, do you have a question for the group tonight?
<Steven> Sheila - go long.
<Steven> I'm passing.
<Steven> hehehe
<@SLViehl> Nonny, you're up then
<Nonny> Oh, boy.
<Nonny>
<JamiJo> shakes head that's BAD steven!
<Nonny> Give me a moment here ...
<@SLViehl> (smacking Steven)
<Joel_A> LOL, steven
<Nathan> {Hands Nonny a moment}
<Kaelle> rofl
<Joel_A> watch out, steven. she enjoys that
<Nonny> I've got an idea for a romance novel I would like to write, but I want to know what the romance readers/writers (winks at Sheila) think of it. Is it salable or would I be better off writing it as a mainstream novel or even a fantasy?
<@SLViehl> good one, Nathan
<Steven> who says I don't, Joel?
<Nonny> I'll warn you now, it will sound a little weird.
<Nathan> thank you Sheila
<@SLViehl> what's the premise?
<Joel_A> GASP! YOu found two guys who like your style, sheila
<@SLViehl> we like weird
<@SLViehl> down, Joel
<Joel_A> LOL, sheila
<Venus> Nonny - what is it?
<Nonny> The novel in question would be a historical romance that takes place in the zenith of the Aztec empire. The hero would be a jaguar knight and the heroine a girl sold into slavery by her family .
<Katherine> Sheila, Joel's just hoping you'll smack him, too.
<Nonny> (sorry, still typing)
<Joel_A> oh, i like it already....
<@SLViehl> I read about this one on the board
<Robert> I'm hoooked!
<Joel_A> LOL, kath.
<@SLViehl> Okay, hard selling points first: Aztec hasn't been done much at all
<@SLViehl> Gary Jennings, mainstream
<Nonny> The heroine is also a prostitute.
<@SLViehl> Way back in the seventies, a couple of Leisures
<Nonny> * in one of the state sponsered whore houses.
<Venus> hooker with a heart of gold has been done all over the place, so I don't have an issue with tt
<@SLViehl> Second hard selling point -- heroines are generally not prostitutes
<@SLViehl> I'm talking about traditional romance publishers now
<Steven> not in Romance, anyway.
<@SLViehl> however
<Sarah> Could you do it as romantic fantasy rather than traditional romance?
<Joel_A> Pretty Woman?
<@SLViehl> you've got an excellent historical fantasy type romance
<@SLViehl> Sarah's reading my mind tonight
<Nonny> I could write this as a historical fantasy?
<Steven> yep
<Nonny> Is that what you're saying?
<@SLViehl> Jacqueline Carey just set the world on fire with Kushiel's Dart
<Venus> historical fantasy deffo
<Joel_A> That's what Kath is doing.
<Sarah> Wow, I get to read YOUR mind for once!
<@SLViehl> Yep
<Steven> I'd go with that.
<Kaelle> What Sarah said. And Sheila.
<Nonny> Even without magic?
<Nonny> Because of the time period, etc.
<Anne_Marble> Mary Balogh did a couple of Regencies where the heroines were prostitutes, but publishers are more uptight now
<Steven> fantasy doesn't automatically = magic.
<Joel_A> Sure, Nonny. Not all fantasies have magic.
<@SLViehl> Sure. Fantasy doesn't demand magic as an obligatory component
<@SLViehl> Now Steven's reading my mind
<@SLViehl> And Joel
<Venus> I was thinking of pretty woman and Les Mis...and some other 19th century french. Sorry.
<cherylp> Some publishers would want the magic, tho, or they wouldn't take it.
<@SLViehl> I would not pitch this as a romance. Go for fantasy
<Nonny> I don't see what the fantastic elements in it would be, other than setting ...
<cherylp> Crap! Did I crash and burn?
<@SLViehl> If you get a chance, read Kushiel's Dart
<Katherine> Setting is exotic enough by itself.
<Sarah> Setting can be fantastic. And didn't the Aztecs have cool gods?
<@SLViehl> we still see you, cherylp
<Kaelle> Aztec religion = magic, of sorts
<Nonny> Oh yeah, Sarah.
<Steven> maybe a kinda-sorta alternate history.
<Katherine> Think of what Gabriel Garcia Marquez has done with Columbia.
<Sarah> THere you go.
<Venus> the aztecs did have cool gods
<@SLViehl> there you go, Steven
<cherylp> Some publishers would demand the magical element
<@SLViehl> Historic-based fiction is also a good market
<Joel_A> hi, cherylp!
<Venus> I read an egyptian historical with a similar idea - no magic, but very cool book
<Joel_A> we still see you.
<@SLViehl> Because you have non-traditional elements, you've got something that would catch the attention of an editor
<Katherine> Also, in that time period the people believed in magic even if it wasn't "real."
<Steven> for an alternate history that doesn't use magic, read Eric Flint's Belisarius series.
<Nonny> Isn't it true though that most publishers don't want the story to revolve around the romance? in fantasy, that is.
<cherylp> Crap! I just crashed & burned! What did I miss?
<@SLViehl> We're just discussing alternative markets for Nonny's book, cherylp
<Joel_A> it'll be on the boards, cherylp
<Sarah> Not necessarily. THere are tons of books with VERY strong romantic threads.
<Scott> Sheila revealed all the secrets for a successful writer, Cheryl. Too bad you missed it.
<Joel_A> I think it's almost obligatory
<Kaelle> snarf
<Steven> bad, Scott. bad.
<JamiJo> or 1632 also...
<cherylp> Yeah. I was suggesting that some publishers wouldn't take it without the magic element before I crashed.
<@SLViehl> Given the situation with your heroine and hero, Nonny, I think you've got a lot more than just a romance on your hands
<Joel_A> shame on you, scott
<cherylp> Scott! I will come through that computer line!
<@SLViehl> That's mean, Scott. lol
<Joel_A> LOL, cheryp
<@SLViehl> But seriously, folks, what other markets would suit Nonny's book?
<Nonny> Oh yeah, and the hero gets sent off to war in the middle of their "Affair," for lack of a better pghrase ...
<Venus> I think historical is v good
<@SLViehl> AH I think Steven suggested
<Joel_A> mystery, if it has a good one in it.
<Steven> Mystery might be good.
<Steven> Suspense.
<Nonny> No, I don't think it would work as a mystery, unfortuantely.
<Robert> And the right agent could throw it mainstream maybe, it's just so exotic.
<Nonny> Suspense maybe.
<cherylp> I actually think mainstream historical fantasy romance would take it. Zebra pops to mind.
<Katherine> I'd be more likely to read it if it were fantasy than if it were romance.
<Venus> Or alternate history...if it's really based on historical people
<@SLViehl> Paranormal -- are there any ESP type elements?
<Joel_A> fantasy, alternative history,
<Nonny> Um, not that I know of at the moment, Sheila.
<Kaelle> ditto Joel
<Nonny> If I write it as fantasy, I can get into the religious stuff, which might have that ...
<Nonny> [lightbulb]
<Kaelle> Yay Nonny!
<Joel_A> that's a major part of that culture, nonny.
<@SLViehl> What you might do, Nonny, is read some historic fiction, some non-magic fantasy, and other genres, and get a feel for what best suits your novel
<Nonny> Just a thought, but maybe I could work it so that the Aztec religious rites actually reaised magic ...
<Joel_A> OH! submit it to the rpg companies
<Sarah> You've got cool gods. Bring them down to mess around a bit. (g)
<Katherine> I agree with Robert, could easily go mainstream.
<Steven> Nonny - Eric Flint has done a lot of different kinds of AH.
<Sarah> Vision stuff.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Nonny?
<Robert> Not with the love plot it's not game material for rpg publishers.
<Joel_A> good idea. let us know when it's finished so we can rip...er...critique it
<Nonny> I'm just wondering, if this is something anyone would pick up if they saw it in a bookstore...;)
<@SLViehl> You can always query any publisher with your idea. Get those queries out, see what kind of response you get
<Venus> I would pick it up - I like aztec stuff
<Robert> Send the query and synopsis to a lot of agents and let THEM decide the label that will get you the best $
<@SLViehl> I would. I like Aztec stories
<Kaelle> I would Nonny
<Venus> It's not explored enough
<Joel_A> I would.
<Steven> Sure, Nonny. It just has to be well written.
<Shelley> I definatly would Nonny.
<Nonny> Hopefully, Steven, I can swing that.
<@SLViehl> I pick up every Egyptian book that's written, too. I like the cultures.
<Joel_A> I know the guy who wrote GURPS Aztec. He would.
<cherylp> Aztecs? Definitely I'd pick it up.
<Steven> do your research, though.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all for some great suggestions, and that wraps up the think tank for this week.
<Venus> as long as it's historically accurate - if you have some weird modernistic stuff in it it would be a real turnoff
<Nonny> Oh, reminds me--there was a historical fantasy that did the Azecs. "The Jaguar Princess" by Clare Bell.
<Nonny> Already have done a lot of it, Steven.
<Nonny> Unfortuantely, TJP is out of print.
<Steven> cool.
<Joel_A> great job, sheila!
<Venus> Thanks Sheila! It's been fun <G>
<Katherine> Quick followup re: queries, Sheila?
<Nonny> Thanks, Sheila!
<JamiJo> Thank you!!! :)
<@SLViehl> Yes, Katherine?
<Katherine> Is it okay to query before the book exists?
<Nathan> Thanks Sheila
<Robert> Thanks, Sheila!
<Scott2> Night, everyone, and thanks.
<Nonny> Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
<cherylp> Thanks, Sheila!
<Kaelle> Wow, another great Friday night. thanks everyone!
<Nathan> Bye scott
<Joel_A> I personally want to say this has been one of the best sesssions I've participated so far
<@SLViehl> Sure. Be prepared to give the publisher a lead time if you get a positive response
<Joel_A> night, scott
<JamiJo> back to work, all you maaaaad folks...
<Venus> Night everyone! i'll be in the chat later
<cherylp> Everything I've read by any editor says a resounding "no!"
<Nonny> Fiction publishers actually take books on query?
<Nonny> First novels, that is?
<Joel_A> night, y'all! I'm starving and now I want to write
<Katherine> How much lead time is acceptable?
<Robert> Yep, I'll mail transcript and then I'm back to my writing!
<@SLViehl> You're a pro, Katherine, so you can sell a book before it's written
<@SLViehl> Usually just from pros, Nonny, sorry
<Nonny> (god, we're keeping poor Sheila late
<Nonny> That's what I was afraid of, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> How fast can you write the novel?
<Katherine> I'm not a fiction pro, though.
<Nonny> I want to finish the one I'm on, first.
<@SLViehl> Doesn't matter. You're published
<Nonny> Maybe six months, Sheila.
<Nonny> And then I have to revise.
<Nonny> And do bits of research here and there.
<@SLViehl> I always give a lead time of three months at the most for on-spec work.
<Katherine> Thanks for the vote of confidence... I think.
<Nonny> (though I thinK I could fudge things a bit because we know so little about the period)
<@SLViehl> So get to the three-month completion point, and you can query with confidence.
<Nathan> Well...I guess I'm gonna go
<Katherine> Gotcha. Thanks!
<Steven> thanks Sheila.
<Kaelle> Night Nathan
<Steven> night all.
<@SLViehl> Goodnight everyone, and thanks for a great session
<Steven> see y'all next week probably
<Nonny> G'night!
<JamiJo> g'night
<Nonny>
<Kaelle> Night everyone!
<@SLViehl> stop by next week if you get a chance
<@SLViehl> I'm making a transcript, then I'm out of here. Take care, and see you next week