Writer's Think Tank #10 -- 04/05/02

<Kay House> Hi!
<@SLViehl> Hey there, Kay, welcome!
<Robert> Hi, Kay!
<Sarah> Dangit, now I need to use this patience thing again.
<Kay House> contract ink? Sounds excITING!!!
<@SLViehl> And Robert, and Anon_38
<Kaelle> Oh yeah, Hi everybody!
<@SLViehl> I may sell four books next week. Everybody cross your fingers
<Kaelle> kmvajd
<@SLViehl> Hi Kae
<@SLViehl> brb -- going for tea
<Sarah> (crossing fingers and toes)
<Kaelle> Nope, can't type with my fingers crossed. How 'bout my toes?
<Jinx> Good luck, Sheila! I have no doubt it will be a piece of cake.
<Robert> Crossed them and hoping for you like crazy!
<Kay House> crossing fingers, toes, etc
<Kaelle> Speaking of cake, anybody want any?
<Robert> Sure, thank you!
<Anon_38> Hello
<Jinx> <perks> Chocolate?
<Kaelle> Chocolate with peanut butter fudge topping. (smiles modestly) It's my birthday cake.
<Jinx> Whee! Happy Birthday!
Fredrick I think I'm Fredrick now
Fredrick Whoops
<Kay House> Happy Birthday Kaelle!!!!
<BarGnat> Hi, all
<Robert> Happy birthday, Kaelle! >^..^<
<Sarah> Happy birthday!
<Kay House> Hello Mary the BarGnat!
<BarGnat> Happy birthday!!!!!!
<Kaelle> Thank you, thank you, thank you....
<Robert> Hello, BarGnat!
<BarGnat> Hi, Robert
<JamiJo> how is the zombie rese
<BarGnat> Hi, Kay
<JamiJo> oops
<BarGnat> Alfric helped me with the research
<Sarah> brb, getting dinner.
<JamiJo> Aah
<@SLViehl> back -- Hi to everyone I've missed
<BarGnat> In fact, he had it all committed to memory
<BarGnat> Hi
<JamiJo> I was going to type up some of the info outta the D&D montster manual...
<JamiJo> byt I am sooooo tired...
<BarGnat> I could use it
<Jinx> Sheila, I don't have a question this evening. But I've missed everyone and wanted to show up.
<@SLViehl> Happy Birthday, Kaelle
<BarGnat> But there's no hurry
<JamiJo> Just sitting here the past 15-20 mins is making me worse
<Kaelle> Thanks!
<JamiJo> bleh
<@SLViehl> No prob, Jinx
<@SLViehl> we've missed you too
<JamiJo> Ok, I'll work on it this weekend then Mary
<Kaelle> Missed you too, Jinx
<Fredrick> testing
<Fredrick> Good, it works
<JamiJo> hi Fredrick
<Fredrick> Hello, JamiJo
<@SLViehl> welcome Fredrick
<Fredrick> Hello, Sheila
<Kaelle> Sheila, can you eat chocolate yet?
<@SLViehl> a little at a time. I'm slowly getting back off the wagon
<BarGnat> Hi Frederick
<Fredrick> Hello, BarGnat
<@SLViehl> so hand over some cake
<BarGnat> hehe
<Jinx> That has to be the most depressing thing in the world -- not to be able to eat chocolate.
<Kaelle> (g) ok Sheila
<Fredrick> I got deluged with chocolate during Easter
<Fredrick> I'm still eating my way through it
<Robert> I think what would get to me worse is if some doctor insisted I decaffeinate.
<Fredrick> Too much of a good thing
<@SLViehl> It's horrible, Jinx. My family was prepared to disown me
<Jinx> Oh, that wouldn't be nice either, Robert.
<@SLViehl> I did that already, Robert -- a week of the worst migraines I've ever had.
<Kay House> The migraine doctor thinks it will help the headaches to cut out the chocolate. So far all I've got is pain and no chocolate.
<Jinx> I can understand, Sheila. I don't trust anyone who doesn't like chocolate. (g)
<Fredrick> What about coffee, Sheila?
<Robert> Ouch ouch ouch - glad that you didn't stay off of it. Much sympathy for both migraines and decaf.
<@SLViehl> I drink decaf, Fredrick -- but mostly herbal tea
<@SLViehl> Poor Kay
<@SLViehl> Welcome Danielle
<Danielle> thanks, hi!
<Fredrick> Hello, Danielle
<Robert> Purr, I answered your second one right before I left mail. lol
<Robert> Hi Danielle
<Jinx> That's not fair at all, Kay.
<Kay House> Thanks for the sympathy! Like you, I'm trying to enjoy herbal tea. Cinammon apple is good.
<Jehane> Hi everyone
<BarGnat> Hi, Danielle
<BarGnat> Hi Jehane
<Kaelle> Chamomile helps, Kay
<Fredrick> I can drink regular tea, but herbal doesn't do it for me
<@SLViehl> Mandarin Orange is great in the morning, Kay -- Celest. brand
<Robert> Much sympathy, Kay. As an experiment it might be worthwhile but if it doesn't work, go back to the coffee.
<Danielle> I put my vote in for plain ole english breakfast tea
<James> Hi All -- I've made it! But I shouldn't boast in case the gods notice.
<@SLViehl> Hi Jehane
<BarGnat> Hi, James
<Kaelle> Hi James! and Jehane!
<@SLViehl> Oh my GOD ITS JAMES!
<@SLViehl> YAY!
<Fredrick> I also like hot chocolate, but I hate those dried out marshmellows that come with them
<Jinx> James!
<James> Mind you, as usual I may vanish suddenly and not be able to get back...
<Robert> Yeah. For all the tea stuff, for all I try to like herbal teas and like the idea of herbal teas, what I like is English Breakfast if I do tea at all.
<Fredrick> Hello, James
<Jinx> So good to see you again, James!
<Robert> Hi James!
<Jehane> HI James!
<Kay House> I see the migraine doctor a week from Monday. I'm praying. Hello James, Hi Jehane!
<@SLViehl> We're just glad we've got proof of life, James
<James> It's wonderful to have made it back in -- I've tried every week, and something's always gone horribly wrong.
<@SLViehl> forgive the Russell Crowe pun
<Kaelle> lol
<Fredrick> I thought it was a Meg Ryan pun
<@SLViehl> I'll recall the Marines now
<Lucas> Wow. I've been gone so long, I didn't even know James was gone.
<James> There's no forgiving Russell Crowe puns...
<Kaelle> Hi Lucas and BJ
<@SLViehl> Lucas!
<@SLViehl> This is like reunion night
<Robert> Hi Lucas and BJ and everyone I missed!
<@SLViehl> Hi BJ
<BJ Steeves> Evening All!
<James> All the prodigals returning
<BarGnat> Hi Lucas
<BarGnat> Hi BJ
<Sarah> James! Hi!
<James> Hi Sarah
<Fredrick> I wonder what it would be like to attend a class reunion and have all of your classmates look twenty years younger than you do
<@SLViehl> Why do I feel like making a turkey and turning on a football game?
<BarGnat> lol
<Robert> lol Sheila!
<Kaelle> snarf
<James> As a dim Australian it took me several seconds to get that, Sheila
<@SLViehl> They tried to make me go to my class reunion, Fredrick. I left the state.
<Andrew> hey everybody. this is my first time making one of these.
<BarGnat> rofl
<Fredrick> lol
<@SLViehl> lol James
<Kaelle> Hi Andrew!
<BarGnat> Hi Andrew
<Danielle> As a dim NZer I'm several stages behind James
<Robert> They never invited me to mine and I premeditated it.
<James> Hi Andrew
<@SLViehl> Welcome Andrew
<Lucas> Hi Andrew. You'll probably like it.
<BarGnat> Hi Anne
<Anne_Marble> Puff puff puff
<Kaelle> And there's Anne!
<BarGnat> hehe
<Lucas> And she's safe!
<@SLViehl> Our Publicity Goddess is in The House
<James> Ooh, Danielle, we can import the longstanding, secret war between Australia and NZ into the Think Tank You begin by saying something nasty about sheep
<Robert> Purr, hi Anne!
<Kay House> Hello Anne!
<Danielle> And then I claim Russell Crowe
<James> Hi Anne
<Danielle> the war is secret??
<Kaelle> rofl
<@SLViehl> Hey, if anybody gets Russell Crowe, it's me.
<JamiJo> fight you for him, sheila...
<James> Well, secret to the rest of the world...
<Jehane> You can have him, danielle. (not THE danielle?)
<Robert> Who's Russell Crowe?
<Fredrick> Russell Crowe reminds me of an australian James Dean
<Danielle> THE danielle??
<JamiJo> The hero in Gladiator
<JamiJo> also played in Beautiful Mind
<James> Excellent, someone buy Crowe a fast car...
<Anne_Marble> I wanted to cast him in my novel. But I couldn't decided if he should be Gorok or Wulf. (He's versatile enough.)
<Sarah> You guys can have Russell, I've got dibs on the Farscape guys.
<Robert> Oh okay, actor I don't know from movies I haven't seen. Makes sense now.
<Fredrick> The Insider, Virtuosity, he played Sid
<JamiJo> hee hee
<James> Gee, Sarah, all of them?
<Danielle> Isn't he a bit built nowadays for Wulf?
<Fredrick> Bad flick, Virtuosity.
<@SLViehl> Actually, I can't give up George Clooney for Russell. Sigh. Okay, someone else can have him.
<JamiJo> MINE
<JamiJo>
<Kaelle> Good call, Sheila
<Sarah> I can't make a choice until I see them without the makeup.
<BJ Steeves> Nothing to Crowe about!
<@SLViehl> JamiJo KNOWS what she wants
<Fredrick> Clark Gable?
<BarGnat> ewww
<JamiJo> .... and i want him now... mmmmhmmmm...
<BarGnat> for shame, bj
<JamiJo> Just don't tell mike
<Andrew> last time I heard females fight over celebrity men it was about which N Sync guy they wanted...
<Anne_Marble> Someone on sff.publishing.scams saw a novel put out by one of the egregious scam outfits in the bookstore. He took one look at the plot and had to share it.
<@SLViehl> Okay, I'm going to put up the roster and get things started -- last call for beverages/bathroom/etc
<Danielle> ewww Andrew for shame
<Anne_Marble> It was about China's secret invasion force of 200 million people. They are put into two submarines and sent toward the U.S. Yes, two submarines.
<BJ Steeves> Andrew, did they get together on that?
<Robert> I'm weird. I want a date with Ellen Datlow after I'm all tied up in contract with a publisher she doesn't edit for, so there's no conflict of interest.
<Sarah> It'd only work if the subs were like the Yellow Submarine.
<James> The submarines are so big that they knock the US of its continental shelf?
<Anne_Marble> Aww, the Fictionwise.com mailing list archives are down. I wonder if they're trying to block the guy who broke the MobiPocket Drm from posting again?
<Anne_Marble> I suggested "Instant Chinese Army, Just Add Water," a la Marvin the Martian. ;->
<Steven> (/modesty) I'm here. We can start now. (modesty)
<Kaelle> rofl, Anne
<@SLViehl> If our Anon 73 & 76 will type their names in, I'll get started
<BarGnat> Hi, Steven
<Sarah> Sheila, can you switch me with someone? I think I have a question for tonight but I haven't worked it out yet.
<@SLViehl> Sure, no problem, Sarah
<James> Do you end up feeling like another Chinese army after only and hour or two?
<JamiJo> ...make steven go first...
<@SLViehl> Robert, you want to go first?
<Kaelle> rofl James
<Robert> Sure. Even if my question is weird.
<JamiJo> "Mr. Modesty" himself
<BarGnat> hehe
<BJ Steeves> She can switch with me, I don't have a question yet.
<James> I'm actually questionless, tonight, Sheila - so someone can have my place.
<Anon_76> Same for me, no question tonight
<@SLViehl> Okay, wait, I'll get to that part in the intro
<Anon_76> that's Danielle, it's not accepting my name
<@SLViehl> Try typing in Danielle2, Danielle.
<Danielle2> ok
<Danielle2> thanks1
<Robert> Yayy you made it!
<@SLViehl> And welcome all to the Friday Night Writer's Think Tank. I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLViehl> For those of you here for the first time, let me give you a quick run-through on how this session works.
<@SLViehl> Each person will have a chance to ask the group a writing-related question -- something you're having problems with, or want opinions on
<@SLViehl> If we get to your name and you don't want to ask a question, just say "Pass"
<@SLViehl> (I put everyone on the roster now in case someone thinks of something in mid-session)
<@SLViehl> The group will try to give you some positive, constructive answers to your question
<@SLViehl> I watch the time, and when I call "Time" we get our final comments in, then move on to the next person
<@SLViehl> Please remember to keep your questions and answers G to PG-13 rated, as we do have minors joining us from time to time
<@SLViehl> Let's get started with Robert, then Kaelle , you'll be next.
<@SLViehl> Robert, you're up.
<Robert> My question is really about organizing life and writing. I just took on a bunch of Dares and am having some problems keeping up with all the different activities at the same time.
<@SLViehl> What's your current system like?
<Robert> I need help organizing, I need to try to plan things out so that I get all of it done along with all the stuff I've got to get caught up with.
<Robert> Currently, I tend to plunge maniacally into one thing and do a lot of it fast. Like write a novel start to finsih. That works best.
<Robert> But I'm finding other things take more time than planned. Like mail.
<@SLViehl> You need to plan by day, week, and month, it sounds like to me
<JamiJo> Write down - plan your day out, start to finish...
<James> If time it takes to do things are catching you by surprise, you might need to log everything you do for a week or two, to give you an idea of how much time you need for all the activities you actually DO in your life
<@SLViehl> Have you got a big calendar you can put right at your work area?
<@SLViehl> good point, James
<Steven> write down all the dares you're doing and how long it'll take you to do each.
<Robert> I use the calendar in my computer for anything that's got a date.
<BarGnat> And be sure to prioritize when you're planning your day/week/whatever
<Steven> then schedule several short things together and the big thing (novel) around those to give you some breaks.
<Robert> I'm terrified of planning by day. Because that's one of the things I got away from by being a writer.
<BJ Steeves> Robert, do you prefer a software solution, or a paper one?
<BarGnat> The earliest times should be carved out for the things that are most critical/crucial
<Danielle2> It sounds like those manic working periods are really productive for you
<@SLViehl> But time-wise, I think, you need to track how much you're doing, Robert, or you'll end up railroading yourself
<Robert> I'm really looking at how to organize the next two months. So that I give enough days to the various things that need doing to get them done.
<James> Prioritizing does sound like something you need to look at: ask yourself what your actual goals are, and ruthlessly prune anything that takes up your time without contributing concretely to your goal.
<Robert> I get most done when my time isn't structured and I'm immersed in just one thing, not an hour of this and an hour of that.
<JamiJo> Break it into smaller goals for youself perhaps?
<Robert> That sounds good, JamiJo.
<JamiJo> Like, a day of this and a day of that then?
<James> And for that to work, you need your goal to be concrete, very specific.
<JamiJo> if you're not good with hour by hour
<Danielle2> Cut down on the number of new things you commit to?
<@SLViehl> If you want to stay away from daily planning, then why not break up the week into "Dare Day" and "E-mail Day" etc.
<Robert> And paper solutions never work, it's more like on computer and put reminders into the Works calendar.
<Fredrick> Jack McDevitt says he writes by scene
<Fredrick> Not word count
<BarGnat> I like the day assignment idea, Robert
<JamiJo> If bigger chunks works better for you, why not do am / pm
<BJ Steeves> Ther are some good PIM programs...Time and Chaos comes to mind.
<Robert> I write by project. I can't predict which day the Exercise will work out for a short story, but when it does I do the story.
<CiceroCat> Sorry, I'm late... can I still come in ?
<@SLViehl> I use Platinum's daily calendar on my computer -- sure CC
<Jinx> It sounds like a focus issue -- some of us are very good at multi-tasking. Others of us are not. (g) You have to work with the "type" you are, but both are workable.
<CiceroCat> thnx
<Fredrick> Do you set daily word counts, Robert?
<Robert> I focus so completely on whatever I'm doing that it gets done fast and well if I don't stop for anything else.
<@SLViehl> I can send you a download of the program, Robert, if you want to try mine. It's very non-threatening.
<Robert> I try to, and then if I spend a day rewriting or at the dentist or something, I don't make it.
<Kay House> I basically think that the only way to be more organized is to do less stuff. Decide what's important to you, schedule it first at the prime times, and refuse to let other things intervene.
<Robert> If I count posting and mail and rewriting as part of it I write every day, but I can't do just a little and stop and get much done.
<@SLViehl> That's not a bad work method -- maybe the trick is not to commit to more than say, three projects at any time
<Danielle2> Wear 'blinkers' until you get something done
<Kay House> Then, decide what is necessary to you but you wish you didn't have to do, and schedule the minimum amount of time to do it to a barely passing grade and skimp on it.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<Fredrick> I think it helps to have another project as a release value, say a short story or a poem
<Robert> I also know that when I'm ahead of a schedule like the Dare or NaNo or whatever, I wind up with a lot of energy.
<James> As I always say, no matter what or how you plan, forgive yourself utterly for not being perfect and meeting every goal you ask of yourself. Missing a goal doesn't hurt you at all, but thrashing yourself over it does, a lot in the longer term.
<JamiJo> plan it into work and time blocks that work for you
<Kaelle> The Dares are meant to be a tool, Robert, to help you figure out how you work best.
<Jinx> Robert, if you stop and move on to a second thing, does the first thing ever get completed?
<Robert> Sometimes not, Jinx.
<Robert> It's more things like the poetry dare are sucking massive time proportional to their importance.
<Jinx> <nods> Sounds very familiar.
<@SLViehl> And if anyone else wants my calendar program, e-mail me at SLViehlworkshop@aol.com -- it's a freebee from Platinum Pens
<Robert> I'm not good at poetry and I've put more hours into planning that poem than it would've taken to do a chapter on my book!
<Robert> Purr, I'd love that calendar. It would be fun.
<@SLViehl> Self-discipline, Robert -- you know how that goes
<James> Robert, I've been writing one for the next poetry dare -- follow my plan: just write bad poetry
<Lucas> Maybe it's teaching you something Robert, if you're thinking about it that much. Still, just knowing that doesn't make it take any less time, so that isn't very much help.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all, Kae, you're up, Sarah, get that question organized
<Robert> Thanks, guys!
<Kaelle> Pass, I'm just here for the company.
<@SLViehl> Sarah, how are you doing with yours?
<Sarah> Coming, just gotta copy...
<@SLViehl> Kay, you're after Sarah
<Kay House> Right
<Sarah> My current WIP focuses very strongly on the relationship between two people who've hated each other since they were kids, gradually grow to realize they've had more in common than they thought, and end up falling in love when the MC is 16. Of course, I can't just let them live happily ever after, so they get split apart right after they realize it.
<Sarah> My problem is, I can't decide if they get their first kiss before the tragic sundering (they do come together again later, though it's not the happy occasion you'd think it would be). He falls in love with her before she falls in love with him -- she realizes it only after they've been writing to each other and she gets betrothed to someone else, and the sundering happens before she gets the ch
<Sarah> the chance to see him again, so at the last time they'd have the opportunity, she still thinks of him as best friend/big brother. Opinions?
<JamiJo> do it before - she has something to think about that way
<Robert> I think youcould do the kiss before if he takes it more seriously than she does.
<Danielle2> yes, definately let them kiss! puts the seal on what she feels for him
<CiceroCat> maybe an almost kiss?
<JamiJo> gives it conflict - she has to face & deal with it
<@SLViehl> I like the kiss happening before the breakup -- puts emotional umph into it
<CiceroCat> those are real fun in the movies, shows the angst
<Anne_Marble> Yes, let them kiss. BTW... how do they get split apart? Life? Fate? Argument?
<Jehane> He kisses her and that's what gets her thinking about him differently
<Kaelle> Right, the kiss gets her thinking.
<Robert> I've been the guy facing 'she thought of the kiss as just fun and a freind thing'
<James> I agree with CiceroCat -- almost do the kiss. Just a breath away, then something that clues him in that her feelings aren't where his are, and the sundering descends.
<@SLViehl> A hit-and-run kiss.
<Danielle2> do you want to leave him unsure of what her feelings are?
<BJ Steeves> Yeah, you don't normaly go arounf kissing your big brother, at least I hope not.
<@SLViehl> Lots of tension in the almost-kiss scenario
<Kay House> She kisses him, sisterly on the cheek because he's down about something else, he takes that for more than it is, and follows up with a humdinger type kiss, and that makes her think because she does like him and she responds.
<James> Just a nudge from his fender, so to speak, Sheila...
<@SLViehl> Nice, Kay
<Robert> No, but women do kiss male friends and don't take it seriously. Oh on the cheek is definitely that kind of thing.
<@SLViehl> Ah, the fender-bender kiss
<Robert> But even a mouth kiss, they don't always think of that as serious relationship?
<Sarah> Life splits them apart. Their society is fairly big on moral too -- she gets in trouble for being alone with him.
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> I think the time period and characters' positions would keep them from kissing otherwise, right, Sarah?
<Sarah> Yup.
<CiceroCat> oh, that' sneat sarah
<@SLViehl> Like Regency Britain
<Danielle2> maybe an almost-kiss is more likely then
<CiceroCat> kiss on the hand? he suddenly gets gallant?
<BarGnat> If she's betrothed to someone else after the sundering, she should be more wondering about that last scene than thinking about her feelings for him
<Anne_Marble> As long as it's not one of those "How dare you?!" "You think I'm what?!" silly arguments?
<BarGnat> Bye, Jami
<Robert> Okay, if a regular kiss is serious commitment in the social context, then the cheek thing would be taken as more than what it would now.
<BarGnat> Feel better
<Fredrick> Kiss her forehead
<@SLViehl> Is it better to wonder about what you might have missed than what you got and can't keep?
<Anne_Marble> If it's like Regency England, a kiss on the hand might be better. It can be more romantic.
<Kay House> Lip to lip means the person who initiated it had romantic feelings, but I certainly put up with goodnight kisses to avoid the argument and embarrassment unless I felt i wasn't in a safe place.
<@SLViehl> Oh, romantic, Fredrick
<Sarah> He's done the forehead kiss -- part of the brotherly friend thing.
<Fredrick> Then kiss her breasts
<Robert> Yeah, like that, Kay. That was the kindof thing I was thinking of on her side of it.
<Danielle2> this is something different
<@SLViehl> What about kissing the palm of her hand?
<Jinx> She can turn her head at the last minute -- his kiss lands on the outside of her lips...
<Kay House> That's VERY romantic Sheila, teh palm kiss!
<Lucas> Depending on the situation, some places that prohibit being alone with a member of the opposite sex would then REQUIRE that two people who violated such rules be paired up. This may not apply to your story, just something to consider.
<Sarah> Hand kissing is a big society thing. Doesn't mean that much.
<CiceroCat> kiss her breasts??
<James> Alternative erogenous zones occurred to me, too Frederick -- I wondered about slow, on or near the earlobe.
<CiceroCat> yeah do the caress the cheek thing, and he turns his face into her palm and brushes his lips across it--or vice versa
<Fredrick> The least romantic place to kiss on the body: the hair
<@SLViehl> But a kiss on the wrist, or the forearm -- or somewhere where society doesn't kiss but isn't x-rated -- might do the trick
<BarGnat> You could always have her turn her head just as he's aiming for her lips and they bump noses and one of them gets a nosebleed
<Kaelle> Caress the cheek - oops, CiceroCat already got there.
<Robert> Palm of the hand was a very cool idea because thta's creative and sensual.
<Danielle2> is he supposed to know she reciprocates then?
<CiceroCat>
<Fredrick> "A kiss on the hand may be quite continental, but diamonds are a girl's best friend..."
<CiceroCat> lol
<BarGnat> lol
<@SLViehl> I'll buy my own diamonds. Can't buy good kisses.
<James> Kiss on the palm, she backs away, but closes her hand, signalling she's holding onto it in symbolic terms.
<BarGnat> nosebleeds would knock the snot out of a romantic scene
<@SLViehl> Nice, James
<Fredrick> Vampires often kiss on the necl
<Fredrick> neck
<Robert> Ari's suggestion, he pounces and bites the back of her neck, she hits him. He thinks she likes him.
<CiceroCat>
<BarGnat> hehehe
<@SLViehl> Ari's such a macho feline
<Fredrick> Blow a kiss to her
<CiceroCat> lol
<Sarah> Danielle -- that's the problem. SHe doesn't at this point, and I'm trying to figure out why and how he'd do it. He has kissed her on the lips before, but there was nothing romantic about it -- she swore she'd kill him if he ever tried it, and he did it a year later to prove he could.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Sarah?
<CiceroCat> touch her lips with his thumb
<Danielle2> cool!
<Sarah> Geez, you guys type fast. (G)
<CiceroCat> that would be sensual and romantic too
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, I like that one
<Fredrick> flip him the bird, then kiss it
<@SLViehl> I'd do the kiss in an unexpected but not pornographic spot. She's unusual, he's unusual, let them do unusual
<Robert> What Sheila said.
<Fredrick> the kneecap is unusual
<@SLViehl> Toes, Sarah?
<Sarah> Lol! God, she'd really kill him for that.
<Robert> gmta, I was about to say toes. lol
<@SLViehl> (trying not to give away what I know about the WIP)
<CiceroCat> kiss her eyelids, maybe?
<CiceroCat> closed of course
<Anne_Marble> Rub noses
<Fredrick> Kiss her beard?
<CiceroCat> eskimoes!
<Danielle2> lol
<Jinx> Back of the neck? That can be sensual.
<CiceroCat> LOL fred
<Anne_Marble> Now _that's_ unusual
<Robert> Back of the neck is very cool and sensual.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all you great kissers. lol Kay, you're up, the Fredrick is after you
<James> Fruit. She bites fruit. He bites her fruit. Juice everywhere.
<Kay House> Main conflict revolves around parental political ambitions and how those are affected by romance between two 15 y/olds. Characters are half teens, half adults. Does this HAVE to be a Young Adult story, and if so, what should I be aware of?
<Fredrick> How about prunes
<Robert> I think depending on what you do with it, that might not be YA.
<CiceroCat> i wouldn't thinki t wouldh ave to be...
<@SLViehl> Romeo and Juliet were younger, and that wasn't a YA, Kay
<Robert> That about describes Romeo and Juliet too.
<Anne_Marble> Not necessarily, I've read books with teens that weren't
<Robert> gmta
<Kaelle> What's your time period
<CiceroCat> btw, if it ends up being shorter, it might be easier to sell that way ho
<Fredrick> Will the kids reach adulthood, Kay?
<CiceroCat> ho = tho
<James> Shakespeare didn't have to put up with marketing categories, though...
<Kay House> contemporary, within 10 years either way of now
<CiceroCat> Talia was about 15 in M Lackey's book
<CiceroCat> i don't htink it was YA
<Kay House> Not during the story, Frederick
<@SLViehl> Is there consummation between the teens, Kay?
<Robert> Then they have other problems besides being in love, lots.
<Anne_Marble> Lots of Misty Lackey's books are about teens, but they're read by both teens and adults
<Kay House> you mean sex, Sheila? No.
<Fredrick> Paul Atreides was rather young in Dune
<CiceroCat> yeah, anne
<@SLViehl> (trying to keep things PG, yes, sex,
<@SLViehl> How does the story feel to you, Kay? Does it feel YA?
<James> Maybe we should turn the question on its head, look at something like To Kill a Mockingbird and ask what about it makes it an adult novel despite the age of the viewpoint character?
<Fredrick> Does it have swears?
<CiceroCat> also, if this is in an medieval or such time, 15 might be considered marriagable age
<Kay House> It didn't start out that way, but I"m afraid it's slipping there, and I don't know how to do that.
<Lucas> I don't believe that the age of the main character has anything to do with forcing a book to be YA. It might be an influence, but it doesn't have the last word at all.
<@SLViehl> Adult novels are about adult situations. Even with young adult characters in them.
<@SLViehl> YA always seem to me to be about young adult issues
<Robert> Would you consider Lord of the Flies an adult book?
<Kaelle> Who do you want your audience to be?
<Lucas> I think Shiela just hit the bull's-eye.
<Sarah> Half the cast of Raymond Fiest's Faerie tale is under 20, and two of the mc's are young boys, but it's DEFINITELY an adult book.
<CiceroCat> coming of age things, sheila?
<Fredrick> George R.R. Martin has young ones in A Game of Thrones
<Sarah> Oooh, or Stephen King's The Body.
<@SLViehl> Lord of the Flies was a coming of age, (CC is reading my mind) so that
<Robert> Ender's Game
<James> Mmm, adult situations seems a good working definition.
<CiceroCat> i guess it would dependon who you are targetting the book towards, which audience ?
<@SLViehl> would be YA
<CiceroCat> lol shiela
<Robert> So it's not whether the book is strong or deals with dark themes.
<@SLViehl> There are plenty of dark YA books
<@SLViehl> The Pig Man, for one
<Lucas> I think Mr.Card said, in one of his books, that he was rather surprised by how much "Ender's Game" caught on with younger readers.
<Danielle2> you might not be able to avoid some YA themes - how they relate to parents etc.
<Sarah> Christopher Pike's books....
<Kay House> Not Lord of the Flies -- there are some YA issues, but there are a lot of heavy political issues like police violence and doing the right thing, and moneyraising in politics and all that
<Fredrick> Heinlein's Starship Troopers was YA
<@SLViehl> This sounds like an adult theme to me, Kay -- which means you have to steer it in that direction
<Lucas> That seems to be thought of as a young adult book, but it wasn't targeted to be such.
<CiceroCat> maybe your book will be a cross genre book--YA and A
<Kay House> Also, there is the progress of normal life going on in hte person of the natural attraction between two teens, and the fact that that turns into a potential political problem for one of the four parents
<Fredrick> triple A?
<CiceroCat>
<Robert> It sounds interesting, Kay.
<Sarah> Phillip Pullman's books were written for children but have an adult readership too.
<@SLViehl> It could make the genre crossing, but Kay has to pitch it as one or the other
<CiceroCat> ah--when in doubt, pitch to the A that way you may not be asked to cut out important scenes
<@SLViehl> I'd go with the adult market
<Danielle2> try parts of it out on young adults to read?
<Kay House> Thanks y
<Kay House> thanks y'all. i was just about to decide taht it was too weird to finish
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Kay?
<Robert> My gut would say that too, since a lot of young adults simply read adult books and they'd be the ones to comment.
<Robert> Like if you notice half your fan mail's from teens think about doing one that is YA as such maybe. <G>
<CiceroCat> just write it and then see who you need to pitch it to
<CiceroCat> it may write itself a certain way
<@SLViehl> From the way it sounds, I'd go adult market. You can incorporate YA elements into that and maybe cross genre, but with the additional adult theme elements, you'd want to pitch it as adult
<James> And when you do make the decision, stick to it firmly and don't second guess yourself until the end.
<@SLViehl> there you go, James
<James> Trust yourself, I mean.
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all for some great ideas -- Fredrick, you're up, then BarGnat will be after you
<Fredrick> All right
<Kay House> Thanks!
<Fredrick> I just started a story with a future society that has a love tax
<Lucas> Creepy.
<@SLViehl> darn, nothing is safe
<Fredrick> In other words, the government taxes the emotion of love
<Robert> Twisted! I like it!
<CiceroCat> love tax! sounds intriguing
<James> Lucrative.
<Robert> How the heck do they enforce that?
<Jehane> how?
<CiceroCat> empaths?
<@SLViehl> let Fredrick finish, guys
<CiceroCat> eep sorry
<Fredrick> My question, aside from profit, why would they tax love?
<@SLViehl> Control
<Fredrick> And what would be the repercussions?
<Danielle2> they want people to spend less time loving?
<James> To stamp love out, or reduce it.
<CiceroCat> because they need to increase population
<Sarah> Population control
<CiceroCat> the more the wives a man has the more kids
<BJ Steeves> They taxed everything else.
<@SLViehl> Secret love societies
<Fredrick> Bear in mind, it includes all forms of love, adult, child, mother-father
<James> A love black market would evolve.
<Danielle2> it's socially icky, needs discouraging?
<Fredrick> Free love doesn't exist, literally
<James> Means of hiding, buy, hoarding love.
<Lucas> James, that makes love sound like something you could buy in a bottle.
<Andrew> widespread political discontent. anti-government groups would be everywher.
<Robert> Okay. Sounds like a control issue and "love of the state" is the one form that's free.
<@SLViehl> You could go to a love brothel and have a mother-for-hire hold you and sing you to sleep
<Steven> emotions are bad? suppress emotions.
<Fredrick> No, the people are like stoics
<CiceroCat> maybe hte king had a bad love experience, therefore sour grapes
<CiceroCat> eep? my posty no showy?
<Robert> Very 1984
<James> Oh, love brothels -- such a good idea!
<CiceroCat> ah there it goes
<Anne_Marble> Mind control. They want people to end up mating only with people in "approved" groups.
<Danielle2> look at the consequences and decide which they're after
<BJ Steeves> And it could be a gauranteed form of income as everyone "loves" somebody.
<Fredrick> No emotion. Like Vulcans, only people are born without the capacity to love or hate
<Lucas> That's good. The government could leave certain forms of love tax free as incentives.
<Robert> Right, it's a sin tax intended to boost revenues and reduce 'free' pleasures.
<Danielle2> do they get rebates?
<James> So people would find ways to evade tax -- they always do.
<CiceroCat> how they punished?
<Fredrick> Hate is illegal and love is strictly regulated
<Lucas> Fredrick - Then where do they get love from if they want it despite the taxes on it?
<Fredrick> If you can't pay your tax, the gov takes your love away
<Robert> You're raising the issue of society's right to control people's emotions.
<Anne_Marble> They might be afraid that people in love tend to be more rebellious, more uncontrollable, more prone to sacrifice all for rebellious causes. (They've read a lot of popular literature.)
<Danielle2> interesting, so people would have to prioritise types of love at teh cost of others
<CiceroCat> ah, neat fredrick
<Robert> How can they take away my love for someone whom I have not expressed it to?
<CiceroCat> maybe it's founded by a slave trade group
<Lucas> Is it that they can make their own, but they aren't allowed to unless they follow strict regulations?
<CiceroCat> that way they get a lot of free slaves
<Robert> Seriously - if I love someone that may not be reciprocated. What would they do if I fell in love.
<Fredrick> There are different forms of love. My protag has to choose between her education (college) and her love for her boyfriend because she can only afford one
<Danielle2> ooo nasty
<CiceroCat> ooo
<Fredrick> She's trying to have it both ways, but can't
<Robert> You're really jacking up the stakes here. Nicely. The state would rather see her go to college, I'm sure. Better tax base.
<@SLViehl2> Hi, sorry, I got bounced
<James> Maybe love interferes with something they want. They give a drug to make people industrially productive 24h a day, say, and love chemicals mess with that.
<Lucas> How does anyone find out when someone loves someone/something?
<CiceroCat> maybe it's to keep people to one thing, like with her. That way they aren't distracted... maybe distraction is considered bad in this society
<@SLViehl2> James is onto something, the physical chemistry of love
<Fredrick> Biological measures, pulse, breathing
<Robert> To regulate it, they have to be able to detect it. And enforce it.
<Danielle2> which does she choose?
<Fredrick> They stop it before you are born.
<Sarah> Ooh, some kind of disease that's catalyzed by hormones
<BarGnat> enforced wearing of biofeedback dots
<Robert> Like drug testing. They would have to have some way to find out or people would start being very private about their emotions.
<CiceroCat> maybe the believe attachment is wrong
<CiceroCat> everyone completely independent
<CiceroCat> love equals dependence
<Fredrick> You can't feel what you aren't born with
<Fredrick> Feeling love is a privilege, not a right in this world
<Robert> That means everyone in that society, the majority, are emotionally abandoned as children.
<James> Maybe people are altered so the biochemistry of love puts a nice obvious mark on their bodies where everyone can see it. Maybe every emotion produces a different, ever changing mark?
<Danielle2> so you're born with pruned ability to love?
<BarGnat> and only those with low emotional capabilities are allowed to breed?
<Fredrick> You can
<Lucas> So you're actually incapable of loving until someone in the government turns on the valve, so to speak. Interesting. If you don't love to begin with, why would you ever bother to seek it out?
<CiceroCat> maybe they are taken from their familes and put in foster care?
<Fredrick> You can't love or hate. You just are
<Danielle2> what if someone's accidentally born with full capactiy to love?
<James> No procedure is perfect, someone will always slip through.
<CiceroCat> maybe it's not fool proof, lucas... but good pt
<Fredrick> Then they are hunted down and deemotionalized
<Robert> This is a surrealist society, a Vonnegut type of premise if they can prevent it from birth.
<Danielle2> oh brutal!
<Robert> And de-emotionalize people.
<Fredrick> Illegal lovers could appear, unregulated.
<@SLViehl2> Abused and neglected child case studies might help give you a picture of what people become when they're deprived of love
<James> If one group can de-emotionalize, the other group can re-emotionalize -- maybe there's a low key war going on...
<Danielle2> do they have contact with any other type of civilizatioN/ say a more emotional one?
<Fredrick> It's world stoicism
<@SLViehl2> it seems like a society like that would be filled with sociopaths, though
<Robert> Worldwide solves the problem of people would just move.
<@SLViehl2> anarchy would inevitably reign
<Fredrick> Not necessarily, they can't hate
<Lucas> So, why does this girl want to love her boyfriend? How much love has she known before? Enough that she knows she would like to love him? Otherwise, why would it even be an issue for her?
<Danielle2> no crimes of passion though
<Robert> It sure would, Sheila.
<Fredrick> In the end, I want her to choose education over love.
<James> Sociopaths don't have to hate to cause problems, Frederick.
<Sarah> Indifference can be extremely harmful. You don't have to hate someone to hurt them. You just have to not care.
<@SLViehl2> hate isn't necessary for a sociopath. Only a sense of oneself being the center of the universe
<Fredrick> Isn't that envy?
<Fredrick> An emotion?
<Robert> And a distorted sense of priorities and ethics.
<@SLViehl2> The sociopath considers herself/himself to be the only real thing in the universe
<CiceroCat> they believe in a distorted sense of order in the world
<Sarah> Nope. "I want to go faster, so I'm going to gun my car through this intersection. THat person may get run down. Meh."
<Lucas> It seems to me that the lack of love to begin with would be the most likely reason for her to choose not to experience it. You can't miss what you didn't have to begin with.
<@SLViehl2> Actually, induced sociopathy, controlled by drugs or some other superior force, could make an effective worker
<Fredrick> But they can afford love. It isn't illegal, it's just expensive
<CiceroCat> might make a good beserker (army person)
<CiceroCat> ah
<Fredrick> Love costs literally as well as figuratively
<Danielle2> you know you like it, you have to save up for it?
<Robert> Meaning that the point of the tax is just to raise funds, wiht something almost everyone wants.
<Fredrick> Yes, exactly
<@SLViehl2> So the poor can't afford feelings. Social inbalance
<Robert> But how do they experience it to recognize they need and want love?
<Fredrick> True. But there could be a love dole
<Fredrick> Lovefare
<Lucas> So it is socially acceptable to buy love? Just costly to the pocket book?
<Danielle2> everyone has at least a little love?
<Jinx> They see others and how they are when they're able to love.
<Fredrick> You can get second hand love
<@SLViehl2> The same way you stand outside a beautiful home when you're poor and look in through the glass window at everyone eating turkey and opening presents while you're freezing
<Fredrick> Or lust
<CiceroCat> neat
<Danielle2> is lust taxed?
<Fredrick> Lust is cheaper, like low grade vodka or beet
<Fredrick> beer
<Danielle2> lol
<Fredrick> Lust is free. Love costs
<Robert> Right, I can see state brothels in that circumstance.
<James> Soap operas might be highest form of their art...
<Danielle2> good for the back of the book!
<Jinx> That's very potent. How many times have you seen a couple in love and were envious of what they shared?
<@SLViehl2> Fredrick, this is really a neat concept. You should run with it.
<Fredrick> I will
<Fredrick> Thanks
<Fredrick> You could even have a love war
<Fredrick> Which is an oxymorn
<Danielle2> sancions
<@SLViehl2> And Time -- any last suggestions, comments?
<Danielle2> sanctions I mean
<Lucas> Fredrick, I'm glad you're the one monkeying with this idea and not me. Eeek!
<Fredrick> Love refunds
<Robert> I'm intrigued that you have her choose education over love. Why?
<@SLViehl2> I'd explore the psychological effects of being unloved or deprived of love, and work off that
<Kaelle> Imagine the tax forms to fill out!
<Robert> Is she questioning the basis of her society or not?
<CiceroCat> lol neat idea-- maybe consider physical consequences o flove that is diff than our world's
<Fredrick> I haven't decided yet
<James> Reduce love to money -- consider everything we do with money, and consider what that would be like in a world where love has literal currency.
<Danielle2> maybe families share love so everyone is loved by at least one person
<Kay House> In a certain way, Frederick, it's the time and energy tradeoff that we all make now, only in the form of a tax
<Fredrick> What is love? Another question I have to ponder
<Fredrick> Love ration
<Fredrick> A little bit of love each day
<@SLViehl2> Good one, too. Okay, thanks all -- BarGnat, you're up, then we'll take a five minute break
<James> Love might still exist in dreams -- dreaming might have value.
<BarGnat> I need descriptions of three monstrous critters, especially ideas on how they kill their victims and what they do with them after they kill 'em
<BarGnat> the monsters are:
<@SLViehl2> Can you give us a little setting?
<BarGnat> zombies, orcs, and trolls
<Lucas> Under what circumstances do the deaths need to occur?
<@SLViehl2> do you want classic or different?
<Robert> Trolls in fairy tales usually eat their victims.
<BarGnat> We've all read about them, etc., classic
<CiceroCat> do you want a diff spiin on them? or stereotypical bad guys?
<BarGnat> I've heard all sorts of things.... zombies eat the brains of their victims, e.g.
<Robert> Zombies in movies are cannibalistic too. But sometimes they're just unconcerned with victims after death, ignore them. Or might make more zombies.
<@SLViehl2> Zombies are traditionally unstoppable, no matter what -- some are flesh eaters -- and anything dead can become a zombie
<CiceroCat> zombies, well maybe they don't feel pain -- no feel pain they are unstoppable unless cut apart?
<CiceroCat> they keep on going
<Sarah> Zombies bite, don't they? And if you get away, the wound turns necrotic.
<Lucas> You can call just about anything an orc or a troll. Zombies are a little more specific, something to do with living dead, but there's a lot of latitude there as well.
<Fredrick> Empathic zombies
<@SLViehl2> euuuww Sarah -- but I like it
<BarGnat> The troll is going to be the master that enslaved the zombies
<Kay House> The trolls are ten feet tall, and have huge tusks that stick out over their lower lips and a lot of nose hair, though they are subject to male pattern baldness, even the females.
<CiceroCat> i loe night of the living dead--gives me the whillies
<BarGnat> O
<Fredrick> What if just certain parts of your body are zombie or troll
<Robert> Then the troll probably turns his victims into zombies to get free slaves.
<Danielle2> trolls are scandinavian - traditionally they live on top of hills and roll down them to attack (I read once in folklore book)
<BarGnat> I've been told that a cave troll is slightly different... gray and hairless, e.g.
<Fredrick> Microrcs in the bloodstream
<Lucas> A zombie could be something with a living body, just a mind that has been taken over/destroyed/controlled by some force/
<Sarah> The more facial hair a female troll has, the more attractive she is... <g>
<Kay House> the trolls prefer to eat humans when available, and when they have surplus humans, they breed them like cattle
<Sarah> There were some pretty creepy trolls in Willow.
<@SLViehl2> Why not have trolls based on corruptions of normal animals? Troll horses, troll cows, troll ducks....
<BarGnat> these zombies are dead dead dead
<BarGnat> and undead, to boot. (G)
<Jehane> trolls turn to stone in daylight
<Danielle2> lol troll ducks
<CiceroCat> orcs... hmm, the only place i read of them was in Tolkien's stuff---maybe they are cannibles
<Fredrick> What if zombies were smarter than humans?
<BarGnat> It's just a short story..
<Robert> Okay. So maybe zombies don't do anything with their victims once they're dead, other than possibly make more zombies.
<James> So from the point of view of the other trolls, your guy might be an outcast because he's basically wasting food with his necromancy.
<Lucas> There you go Kay, agriculturally oriented trolls.
<Fredrick> Zombie plants
<BJ Steeves> Troll roads, ya have to pay a troll to pass.
<@SLViehl2> Orcs are like swine, yes?
<Robert> Orcs might be cannibals, or might just rob them or might mangle bodies into sick humor.
<Fredrick> Deathgrass, deathweed
<Sarah> The trolls in Ella Enchanted can make people do what they want by talking to them in a certain way... but the heroine is able to learn their language and turn it against them.
<BarGnat> hehe, BJ
<Robert> Making fun of the dead with how you pose the bodies and how you dress them.
<CiceroCat> maybe orcs believe you have to dismember the dead otherwise, the trolls will turn their dead into zombies
<James> Unless Trolls like hunting, but they also prefer meat that's had time to go off a bit -- he's combining pleasures.
<Kay House> The trolls will eat orcs only if nothign else is available
<Fredrick> Skin eaters
<CiceroCat> so they are into dismembring
<Robert> Or putting skulls up on the perimeter of their dwelling to warn off enemies.
<@SLViehl2> What you'd need are three species of monsters inter-related to each other somehow -- some common denominator
<BarGnat> Like that CC
<BarGnat> thx
<Anne_Marble> Zombies in the ol stories were pretty pathetic. They were used for gurnt labor. They would suddenly realize they were dead and then bury themselves. But in their own way, they were cool.
<Fredrick> Resident Evil
<Robert> Orcs in lead miniatures often use bones and skulls in their armor and decorating their homes.
<@SLViehl2> The trolls create the zombies, who are controlled by orcs
<Anne_Marble> (I used to read Boris Karloff's Mystery Comics Digest. (g))
<Fredrick> What if orc song cause agony
<@SLViehl2> Trolls being the masters, orcs being the generals, zombies being the infantry
<Kay House> the zombies drink their victims blood because there is an inaccurate legend among them that if you drink enough blood that is strong enough, you can change from a zombie (short life span) into a longer lived vampire
<Robert> How do zombies become zombies? Infected by killed by another zombie, a spell, what?
<Lucas> I like the Xanth zombies. They're a strange, sympathetic example of the species.
<BarGnat> This troll hates humans and sends his zombies out to kill them
<CiceroCat> maybe one of these guys can only go around in the night--daylight hurts or makes them vulnerable
<@SLViehl2> How do you envision them, BarGnat?
<Robert> Tokein's trolls turned to stone by daylight.
<Fredrick> Photosensitive, I like that CC
<Anne_Marble> Anybody here remember the Androgum (sp?) from Dr. Who? ;-> They were a race of people who ran after other people with meat cleavers and tried to cook them.
<Fredrick> So do gargoyles in that cartoon
<BarGnat> My MC will free them from the troll and they can return to a peaceful death for eternity
<CiceroCat> really robert? neat
<Anne_Marble> I think zombies could be created by spells.
<James> Different life stages of same species: humans grow until they're orcs, orcs grow until they're trolls, anyone dead too early is zombie candidate.
<Fredrick> What if only vegans became zombies
<CiceroCat> or a twist on that -- they are night-sensitive lol
<CiceroCat> can't go around in the night
<Danielle2> are they zombie trolls? or zombie peopel or what?
<@SLViehl2> Nice idea, James
<Lucas> Has there ever been any monsters that can't come out in the day time? Or is that just an instinctually backwards arrangement?
<Robert> Most zombies are created by spells in horror stories, usually voodoo.
<Lucas> I mean, that can ONLY come out in the day time.
<BarGnat> Orcs hate the sunlight
<CiceroCat> not sure lucas
<Anne_Marble> And if you fed them salt or nuts (I think), they realized that they were dead and buried themselves.
<Fredrick> Can they possess people?
<@SLViehl2> Magic means to raise the dead = zombies
<Robert> You have to decide what a troll is, what an orc is and what a zombie is.
<Robert> Yeah, Anne, I ran into that often about salt.
<CiceroCat> necromancy
<@SLViehl2> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for BarGnat?
<BarGnat> these monsters are not main characters of any kind... just background to the story
<Lucas> Without knowing what your story calls for, this is a dang tough question.
<Fredrick> Rotten gases
<CiceroCat> so you may not need too much info on them
<Fredrick> Expelled from the creatures
<@SLViehl2> I'd craft the monsters to suit the world. Don't go with the standard. Make them unique
<CiceroCat> bad breathe in one of them
<BarGnat> Just need to be able to describe them a bit
<Robert> Just decide on what works best for your story and be consistent with yourself, BG.
<Anne_Marble> (Supposedly zombies were really mentally ill family members whose funerals were faked when their disability became too obvious to hide from the public, and then they escaped their caretaker.)
<CiceroCat> kills with a single yawn
<BarGnat> thx, y'all
<James> Find a means to make them different from classic, because people will judge them as derivative even with the best of intentions on your part.
<Robert> These are things you can decide arbitrarily on what best serves the story.
<CiceroCat> maybe zombies are dopplegangers of humans
<@SLViehl2> All right, thanks to all you ghouls. We're going to take a five minute break now
<James> Not that your use is, automatically, but people will carp.
<Fredrick> Zombiefax
<Robert> lol Fredrick
<@SLViehl2> brb -- have to toss the kiddies in bed.
<Anne_Marble> Read the original myths because a lot of cool things are there that never make it into the media zombies
<Robert> BG, I know it's a comedy so if you're derivative, parody the source.
<BarGnat> k
<Robert> In fact if you can parody many multiple sources, that's even better.
<Kaelle> A comedy? Then things fall off zombies, usually at the worst time
<CiceroCat> klol
<Kaelle> arms, legs. etc
<BarGnat> The question came up because I want her to rub the sleep out of her eyes and see the troll-hands when she raises them to her face
<Lucas> Original myths of just about anything are usually fascinating, even if the commonly known varieties of things are boring.
<Anne_Marble> Think Monty Python
<James> Or incidental dead things and bits of dead things around them come to life briefly.
<Robert> Thats neat, BarGnat. Then trolls in your story should be obviously trollish, like scaly and green instead of human looking.
<Jehane> a comedy? read some terry pratchett and see what he does with trolls and zombies
<BarGnat> got a title for me?
<Robert> Most of all it's like telling any joke - set the conditions that inevitably lead to the punch line.
<Fredrick> Zombie quilts stitched out of necrotic flesh
<James> Things Fall Apart
<Lucas> Do zombies have a zombiefication field, that's a little different James.
<Jehane> men at arms would probably be the best to start with
<CiceroCat> self-frankenstines?
<Fredrick> How to make an American zombie quilt
<Kaelle> James, yes!
<Robert> Your email title. "Here, zombie, zombie, zombie...
<Lucas> I hadn't heard that one.
<Steven> Sheila, I'm going to pass, so you don't ahve to worry about cutting other people off to fit me in.
<Robert> brb
<BarGnat> The MC has no idea how she became a zombie... doesn't really care... just wants not to be one any longer
<Fredrick> What's the difference between a goblin and a troll? I'm not usre.
<Anne_Marble> Give her a bag of salted peanuts.
<@SLViehl2> back -- sorry, Kathy is home tonight.
<James> I like the notion of a zombiefication field. Imagine a zombie walking through a graveyard, animating what it brushes up against...
<Fredrick> A zombie game show
<BarGnat> heh
<James> Goblins don't have access to Usenet?
<@SLViehl2> want to pass tonight, Steven?
<Anne_Marble> I think some Goblins do...
<Fredrick> Dialing for Demons
<Robert> Goblins on Usenet. Meooowwww!
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl2> Is there anyone who'd like to be added to the question roster?
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Lucas> I thought it was trolls that used usenet, though I suppose there might be a few goblins.
<Jehane> i'm passing as well, sheila
<James> Sometimes seem all the dark forces do...
<CiceroCat> i have an a q, if it won't take up too much time to add me?
<Fredrick> goblets vs. goblins
<Robert> Then you could use the traditional salt thing to dezombify, by way of something silly like potato chips and other salty snacks?
<@SLViehl2> Margaritas
<James> Ew, accidentally drinking from a goblin...
<CiceroCat> if it gets close to the time tho, i'll pass
<Lucas> goblets vs goblins vs giblets vs gibberish
<BarGnat> My MC, Pippi Pingponger, get rid of the troll rather cleverly
<Fredrick> Olestra causes zombism?
<Kaelle> Yeah, Sheila
<CiceroCat> lol
<CiceroCat> olestra -- that was on MJ mornin g show thursday i htink
<@SLViehl2> I used to be a bartender
<Steven> yep. pass tonight.
<@SLViehl2> no problem, Steven
<Robert> gobblins, known for overeating
<Kaelle> BG, love the name. lol
<Steven> I'm a bit distracted. hehehe
<Andrew> Sheila: Would it be possible to move my question up? I have to be up at an ungodly hour, and I'm not sure I can last till the end.
<Lucas> Those little salt packs from fast food restaurants just got really useful.
<CiceroCat> it looks like we got a lot of people in this room--is this more than we usually have for a tt?
<Fredrick> Or superpretzels
<Fredrick> They have big salt packs
<@SLViehl2> Sure, Andrew, we'll move you up to next after the break, if no one objects?
<James> Make a zombie cry -- salt tears burns its face off...
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Danielle2> fine with me
<@SLViehl2> Danielle, is that okay with you?
<Fredrick> What if a city was a zombie, but the people were normal?
<Danielle2>
<Robert> Zombie trips on the salted winter sidewalk, loses face.
<@SLViehl2> okay
<Lucas> What, onion a zombie to its destruction?
<CiceroCat> lol
<CiceroCat> he's be smelly then
<CiceroCat> i'd stay away
<CiceroCat> hey maybe zombies hate baths
<CiceroCat> theyt urn into them coz they hated to bathe as kids
<James> Onions -- a perfect weapon...
<Fredrick> Or maybe they don't like to wash behind the ears
<Lucas> I'm not sure how ELSE you'd make one cry. Rotten brains probably aren't much given to sympathy.
<@SLViehl2> Last call for bathroom/beverages/snacks whatever
<Robert> btw, trolls should be very ugly. "Troll" was a term for ugly and socially unwatned when I was in san francisco.
<CiceroCat> an a fungus grows
<Kaelle> Swimming in salt water...ooo
<BarGnat> Poor Pippi is a newbie zombie... parts of her are not yet falling off
<CiceroCat> that turns them into a nice zombie
<Fredrick> A zombie disc jockey
<CiceroCat> they should be into Tolls too
<@SLViehl2> BarGnat's and Fredrick's questions would make excellent discussion topics on the boards, btw, just a suggestion
<James> Break their heart, Lucas
<CiceroCat> lol like in the 3 billy goats gruff
<Lucas> So can zombies get preservatives added to them?
<BarGnat> duct tape?
<Kaelle> snarf
<Fredrick> Let's bowl with orcs
<CiceroCat> lol maybe zombies are full of salt so everyone runs after them wanting the salt -- salt is a valuable commodity
<James> Velcro would be better.
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Lucas> New... Pickled zombie!
<Fredrick> Zombie matrimony
<CiceroCat> slugs would hate em then
<@SLViehl2> All right, folks, let's get back to work. We're going to move Andrew up to be next, then Danielle will be after him.
<Danielle2> zombie as cow lick
<BarGnat> to go with canned squamata
<CiceroCat> lol dani
<Lucas> Or these desert zombies, they're like jerky.
<@SLViehl2> Andrew, you're up
<Danielle2> lol lucas
<Andrew> Okay. In my WIP, magic is like free will -- god gave it, but he doesn't want you to use it. Each spell counts against you in the afterlife. what's a good reason for this?
<Fredrick> Purity
<CiceroCat> magic is AWESOME in power
<Robert> Sounds like an arbitrary act of the god.
<CiceroCat> you are almost godlike
<James> God is made of magic -- use it, you consume him.
<BarGnat> jealous god
<Danielle2> the point is your spiritual ability to resist using it
<CiceroCat> good one james
<Fredrick> Good one, James
<CiceroCat> or a limited supply of world magic?
<@SLViehl2> Self-control. Discipline. Being humble before God
<Robert> Good one, James
<@SLViehl2> Oh, nice, James
<Lucas> The spells do something bad to other people, something that is sinful? Or it's a sin of pride, to attempt to be god-like by using magic?
<CiceroCat> you must be worthy to use magic
<Kaelle> nice, James
<Andrew> very nice, James.
<Fredrick> Every magic has an equal and opposite reaction
<CiceroCat> too many people making fake money--now econmies collapse
<Jinx> Like it, James, but why would he give it? Unless he didn't have a choice
<James> If you use to much, god eats your soul in the end to get the magic in it... to top himself up.
<CiceroCat> cool
<Robert> Ah. Then in order to use magic without doing evil you would actually have to plan for the backlash to also do good in its context, taking finesse.
<Kaelle> ooo
<Anne_Marble> Using magic is considered a form of pride/hubris.
<@SLViehl2> Holly's magic always comes with a price -- a backlash, usually -- so I like the cause and effect type
<Danielle2> god made people, so people contain god's magic
<CiceroCat> maybe if you have more than one god, the other god gave them magic and he can't take it away
<Kay House> THERE, Frederick!! It's not that he doesn't want you to use it, he just wants you to use it wisely, and is unwilling to interfere if you choose differently.
<Anne_Marble> Using magic is a crime against nature.
<CiceroCat> using magic makes something bad happen elsewhere in the world
<@SLViehl2> You could tie it in with reincarnation. You keep coming back until you learn NOT to use magic to live your life
<CiceroCat> almost zen like
<@SLViehl2> and then you're perfect
<Robert> Are there circumstances, like a certain religious view of sex, where it's okay to use magic? But very specific ones, like marital sex for procreation?
<Kaelle> I like that, Sheila
<Lucas> The god made people with magic, but doesn't want them to use if out of hand, so there is a price. If you use it sparingly, you get by, but if you rely on it like a crutch, zip for you.
<Fredrick> Magic has ripples, unforeseen consequences in the fabric of the universe
<Danielle2> as you gain in ability to use it wisely, you become less likely to choose to use it
<James> Reincarnation, yes -- but your soul is magic and when it's all used up, no more lives, oblivion.
<@SLViehl2> twisted, James
<Andrew> Robert: that area was left gray in God's message to man.
<Robert> Nice, James.
<Anne_Marble> The old Spanish saying "Pray for God but row for shore." Something like that.
<Robert> I'm not saying tell the reader, I'm saying it's important for author to know.
<Lucas> That's a consistent theme Danielle, just like trained fighters who get in far less fights than untrained ones.
<James> Or when it's used up, you're reborn still, but without the soul.
<Fredrick> you can create second gods that can go against the first
<@SLViehl2> or the magic comes from a source other than God
<Danielle2> oo, soulless people running round!
<Fredrick> what if pain caused magic
<@SLViehl2> like (whisper) Satan
<Robert> So Andrew, you're saying that thre might be some ethical times and places to use magic, but the god didn't actually tell anyone what those were?
<CiceroCat> maybe it's like you are what you eat -- if you use a lot spells you became reincarnated as magic
<Lucas> Though, you'd have to have some way to figure out what the difference between someone with a soul and someone with out one was, if souls are going to be an issue.
<Fredrick> I like that, CC
<Sarah> Women need magic to procreate, but any magic used by men comes from them -- too much magic use and your society is barren.
<@SLViehl2> ouch, CC, gruesome
<CiceroCat>
<James> What if magic is technically a conscious life form. Using it = killing it = ethically bad.
<Danielle2> maybe using magic means you're using up the souls of the dead?
<CiceroCat> neat james
<@SLViehl2> energy = life magic = energy
<Fredrick> maybe there's a magic bank
<Andrew> right, robert. there's a very powerful church that interprets it, but God doesn't interfere to clear things up.
<Robert> Yeah. Andrew, you need to knwo what magic is and where it comes from, to decide that.
<James> Oh, yes, combine my idea and Danielle's. They go together beautifully.
<Fredrick> What if God took out a loan on the universe and used magic as his collateral?
<@SLViehl2> Time -- any last suggestions, comments for Andrew before we send him off to bed?
<Robert> It would help to know why the god prohibits magic - or if the god does not care but the church does and it's the church's idea it's sinful.
<Robert> rofl Fredrick!
<James> Like that, Frederick!
<CiceroCat> lol fred
<Kaelle> lol, Fredrick
<Fredrick> You'd be bankrupting him!
<Sarah> Ooh, they're unwittingly drawing magic from the big dome that keeps the invading aliens from destroying society.
<@SLViehl2> I like the price-attached to it kind of magic, so I'd go that direction
<Lucas> That's strange Fredrick. God has to watch his budget. Any magic people use reduces his cash flow and puts him dangerously close to defaulting on the mortgage of the universe.
<@SLViehl2> lol Fredrick
<James> And someone might repossess!
<CiceroCat> lol
<Danielle2> rofl
<BJ Steeves> Headline: God files for chapter 11!
<Kaelle> rofl
<Robert> rofl
<CiceroCat> lol
<Fredrick> Or maybe God is like the college student who has to consolidate all his student loans
<Andrew> rofl
<James> Or bring in other investors with different ideas for the direction the cosmos should be run.
<Robert> Or maybe the god is a college student and the world is his thesis and he needs to keep it magic free for uncontaminated laboratory conditions!
<BarGnat> LOL
<BJ Steeves> As long as they don't work for ENRON
<Sarah> Ooh, I like that robert!
<Kaelle> snarf
<@SLViehl2> Okay, thanks to all for some very interesting interpretations of the Almighty. Danielle, you're up, then James is going to be after you if we have to beat him with a stick.
<James> The Cosmos becomes the legit business front for Deity-scale mafia types.
<CiceroCat> lol
<Lucas> Hey there, remember that research project you started? Well, the contracter who delivered the fifty zillion tons of hydrogen just called and said he needs his twent billion jules of magic by the first of the month...
<Robert> rofl James!
<James> Good one, Rovert.
<Danielle2> I'm going to pass for this week, thanks!
<Andrew> thanks a bunch, all. now I have something to do in the car for 10 hours...
<@SLViehl2> Night Andrew
<Andrew> g'night!
<Robert> Play God it's loads of fun, Andrew! Happy writing!
<Danielle2> bye Andrew
<Anne_Marble> Night Andrew
<Kaelle> <gasping for air> Night Andrew!
<CiceroCat> nite andrew
<CiceroCat> have fun
<BarGnat> 'night Andrew
<Lucas> Good night Andrew.
<Fredrick> Good night
<James> See you, Andrew.
<Jehane> bye andrew
<Kay House> 'NIGHT ANDREW!
<@SLViehl2> James, got a question for us?
<Lucas> Did Danielle get her question?
<Danielle2> I passed
<@SLViehl2> Dani is passng tonight
<Lucas> Ok.
<Danielle2> yup
<@SLViehl2> passng=passing
<Kay House> Bear in mind, no question means Sheila gets out her big stick, Jams
<@SLViehl2> (tapping foot, folding arms) Yes, James
<Kay House> er James?
<James> My mind is blank, I have to say. Not a thing in it. So I think I have to pass.
<@SLViehl2> (whack)
<CiceroCat> nothing?
<Kay House> nothing at all?
<CiceroCat> ah comeone, there must be something?
<@SLViehl2> We'll torture him next week
<CiceroCat> k
<Anne_Marble> <anne blows tunes on James' skull>
<BJ Steeves> Careful, he has a blank mind.
<James> For some reason my messages come out about eight messages after I send them...
<CiceroCat> lol
<CiceroCat> might be easily written on, bj?
<Lucas> Does he deserve the two scoops kellog's raisin bran?
<CiceroCat> lag, james?
<James> Think of me as being on the moon, with a considerable light speed delay between me and everyone else.
<CiceroCat> lol
<Robert> Sounds like lag
<Anne_Marble> Wow, that reminds me of Starfarers
<James> Anne! Tickles
<CiceroCat> hope it odesn't mean your connection is about kick ya out
<@SLViehl2> Understood, James, no problem. Lucas, you're up, BJ, you'll be after Lucas
<Lucas> Ok.
<Lucas> I'm looking for a little brainstorming on a social situation.
<Jehane> i get that sometimes too, james, might just be distance
<Anne_Marble> <Anne plays "And the Saints Go Marching In" on James' brain>
<Lucas> There is a world with a ruling class, and a group of Guards. The Guards serve and protect the rulers, but their first loyalty is to the Guard force which protects all of the nation's people.
<CiceroCat> neat social
<Lucas> The value of people is thought of as the Guards being gold, the Rulers silver, and the commoners are copper.
<Lucas> The rulers consider themselves to be superior to the common people they rule, but believe that the Guards are superior to them because the Guards are willing to die in their defense.
<Steven> I'm tired. I'm taking off. see y'all next friday.
<Lucas> The interesting part of this to me is that while the Guards, who live as religious ascetics and are virtually a different culture within the main community, are considered to be superior, they still serve the rulers.
<BJ Steeves> The ear(y) canal?
<Lucas> I was wondering what conflicts seem inherant to this situation. Is it too unlikely? What is required to make this a believeabe setup? I don't want to miss an obvious hole in the story. (Or, for that matter, miss an opportunity for strange conflict...)
<Robert> See you, Steven! Happy writing!
<CiceroCat> nite steven
<Jehane> bye steven
<BarGnat> 'night Dhaqa
<James> Fingers crossed, CiceroCat! (That it doesn't happen.)
<Robert> It sounds as if the society was based on Plato and his metallic analogies for class differences and they all believe in it.
<Robert> It's plausible to me because Plato is still very popular
<CiceroCat> hmm, what would they decide to give their life up for--might be a conflict
<@SLViehl2> First thing I thought was, Knights Templar
<CiceroCat> what decision is big enough for them to do that
<Lucas> Err, actually Robert, that is where I got some of the idea from.
<Jehane> perhaps the guards have been around longer than the rulers
<CiceroCat> (i mean in protecting the silvers)
<Sarah> Lisanne Norman has a similar kind of stratification with the Sholan series. You might want to read that for ideas.
<James> See you, Steven.
<Danielle2> is there a religious aspect? favour to the guards from above?
<Jehane> like in elizabeth moon's serrano legacy
<Robert> Right, Lucas. If you'rre doing a remake of The Republic and adapting iit as SF, credit the source.
<CiceroCat> this also might mean they are very militaristic
<Anne_Marble> I don't see why not. Social things can be weird. There are caste styems where very valuable groups of workers are considered untouchable because they do something that is considered forbidden. Like working with dead bodies.
<Kaelle> Do the Guards produce offspring?
<Robert> If there is any way the world building will allow it, let the folks in teh culture (at least the golds) have access to Plato's texts.
<Danielle2> are guards hereditary?
<CiceroCat> so maybe hte rulers never even learn how to lift a sword--maybe weaponsa ren't allowed to any but hte guards/golds?
<@SLViehl2> Do you want this to be an adaptation, or a complete original social structure, Lucas?
<Robert> The twist that makes the story unique is that the Guards got themselves defined as the Men of Gold who are supposed to get all the perks in society.
<Lucas> The guards are like a religious order, they can breed their own and also take in those they think are worthy.
<Danielle2> or can anyone become a guard?
<Danielle2> right
<James> There'll be some conflict because not everyone will agree that they're inferior or superior just because society says so, and they''ll try to climb.
<CiceroCat> neat...
<Fredrick> Are guards more powerful than the king>
<Kaelle> There's a conflict
<Anne_Marble> Do the guards come from a different race or species?
<Robert> They may have severe tests of competence for adult Guard status.
<Lucas> The ruThe Guards serve the lords, but their first duty is to uphold the Articles of Confederation that were written when the original thirteen baronies were bound together in a single country.
<Fredrick> Maybe the king is a figurehead
<CiceroCat> these guards--are they also like the police of your world? besdies a military force?
<@SLViehl2> If the guards hold the real power, then they control the kingdom
<Robert> Yeah, politically it's a shogunate.
<@SLViehl2> Lords would be figureheads
<Danielle2> do guards get demoted to normal, and if so why?
<Robert> And management for civilians.
<Lucas> But the guards can't make laws, only lords can make laws, but the guards have to ratify the laws before they become official.
<Robert> Where do artisans fall?
<BarGnat> think "copper"
<@SLViehl2> Power corrupts -- the guards may decide they want to run everything
<Robert> So someone in the setup of this kingdom actually considered checks and balances and may have read Machiavelli too. What's their religion?
<Fredrick> Do they have a guard guild?
<CiceroCat> maybe it would be like a balance of powers -- you have your lawmakers (lords) -- the enforcers (guards) --and....
<Robert> Where do philosophers fall?
<Danielle2> conflict if lords try to hide anything from guards, don't tell them all their motivations behind a miltary action
<CiceroCat> do Guards have magic btw?
<Robert> Plato pure would put philosophers at the peak since he was one.
<Kay House> easy enough for a military caste to have accidentally taken over, been subject to a series of military coups, and decided that, to maintain peace among themselves, they had to be subject to a civil authority
<Fredrick> The guards are precogs
<Robert> More like a militarily competent reformer got in there somewhere.
<@SLViehl2> The lords sound like front men puppets to me. I'd have the head of the Guards running the whole show from behind the purple curtains
<Jinx> Seems to me that the rulers might have reasons to fear the guards -- which would both subject the rulers to the guards, and make the rulers want to rule the guards.
<Anne_Marble> What would happen if someone unearthed an old copy of a philosophical or religious document that showed their system was built on a typo?! ;->
<CiceroCat> precog? you mean see thigns before they happen?
<Lucas> There isn't any magic in the story. The technology of the nation is roughly bronze age with a few exceptions.
<Sarah> In one of my series I have the Guardians, who are of a different species than the other people in the kingdom and really only interested in eviscerating anyone who gets out of line. So the Guardians take care of any criminals and leave the boring running of the kingdom stuff to the humans.
<Fredrick> Yes, CC
<@SLViehl2> Ah, Anne, you're mean
<CiceroCat> ok lucas hmmm....
<CiceroCat> lol anne
<Danielle2> do guards have carte blanche to arrest, search homes?
<Robert> Lucas, you're blowing an interesting riff off of Plato. Question. Is this society presented sympathetically, as Plato represented his, or are you poking holes in its flaws?
<CiceroCat> do the people in general fear, revere, or envious of the Guards?
<Robert> How corrupt are the Guards?
<James> A historical incident where the guards did something dreadful and against all social rules with awful results, would add a nice "what if they do it again" anxiety.
<Lucas> Robert - I'm trying for a sympathetic slant.
<CiceroCat> good question robert
<Fredrick> What if the guards are symbiotically linked to the lord or king, so if he dies, they die?
<Danielle2> are MCs guards?
<Fredrick> The lifelink is the ultimate test of loyalty
<Kaelle> Who controls the treasury?
<Robert> Okay. Then there needs to be some custom level rigid reforms against economic and social oppression by guards. That constitutional element is what might make it work well enough - if everyone believes in it as a system.
<CiceroCat> well if the guards first duty is to themselves, does this mean this is how they protect the nation? maybe it's very war-filled times
<Lucas> The Guards are loyal to their principles, which is mostly to uphold the laws of the Articles and to protect the nation. They live as ascetics, so material manuevering doesn't help them much.
<Danielle2> you'd have occasional suicide martyrs taking out their lord with lifelink
<Lucas> The lords control the treasury and own most of the land.
<@SLViehl2> But the guards control the lords
<Robert> Right. seems like they are paid with status and one way or another are not supposed to be greedy.
<CiceroCat> so the lords pay the guards?
<@SLViehl2> they'd have to, with that set up
<Fredrick> What if money was in calories and not in land?
<Robert> Throw the Guards out if they have the slightest greed. Ruthless Internal Affairs enforcement might help maintain the system.
<CiceroCat> and that might make them protect the lords more
<James> I'm going to disconnect and reconnect to see if I can rejoin everyone in the present. Brb -- unless I can't, in which case, see you next week and on the boards!
<Anne_Marble> They get paid in wives.
<@SLViehl2> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Lucas?
<CiceroCat> good luck james
<Danielle2> see you James
<Fredrick> Wineconomy
<@SLViehl2> night James
<Robert> That and it is a relevant question what the religious system of that government is, what sets the ethics? It could be 'the philosophers' if you want a religious free society like Pern.
<Anne_Marble> Good luck James
<Fredrick> Good night
<BarGnat> good luck, James
<Robert> Night, James
<CiceroCat> look into your nation's past... it probabbly caused the current situation
<Robert> Perhaps ethical questions are decided by philosophers.
<Lucas> The lords pay for the guard's upkeep and dictate their strategic movement. The guards can study immediate battle tactics, but only lords can study over all strategy.
<@SLViehl2> Something threatened this nation so much that they created an occupying army -- yeah, I'd check out history
<Danielle2> room for deception
<Robert> What recourse do the men of bronze and copper have against oppression.
<Robert> What happens if a lord and some Guards are colluding in corruption and oppressing copper and bronze folks.
<BarGnat> Could the hierarchy of philosophers, artisans and such be within the guard organization itself?
<Anne_Marble> They might not cojnsider opression to be corrupt, as long as that oppression fulfills their ideals of the society
<Lucas> That's exactly what happened Shiela. They are an island nation that broke ties with the mainland and lived in fear of eventual attack by their parent nation.
<Fredrick> What if the guards were about to be put out of business?
<Fredrick> Say, by a security system
<Fredrick> Impervious.
<CiceroCat> who is allowed to actually do defense?
<CiceroCat> can they have hired guards? that aren't a "Guard"?
<Robert> How difficult is it for an individual to change their status?
<@SLViehl2> Okay, thanks all -- I know we could probably wrestle with Lucas's question all night (getting some real great ones tonight from everyone!) but we do have to be fair and move on -- BJ, you're up, Anne, you'll be after BJ
<BJ Steeves> I pass tonight, Sheila.
<Lucas> Ok, thanks for the comments everyone.
<@SLViehl2> Lucas, can you bring this question back next week?
<Lucas> I can.
<Lucas> If you think it's that good.
<@SLViehl2> Definitely do. Anne, got a question for us? JamiJo will be after Anne. -- and yes, Lucas, I think it's fascinating
<James> I'm back.
<Danielle2> yay!!
<BarGnat> Jami went home sick
<James> And fast again!
<@SLViehl2> ^^^^^^^^^^^^James
<Robert> wb James!
<CiceroCat> hope she gets well
<CiceroCat> wb james
<Jehane> wb james
<@SLViehl2> So noted on JJ
<BarGnat> congrats, James
<Robert> Hope she gets better soon, BG
<Kay House> I just pumpkined. I'm sorry. I'll email you transcript up through Lucas remark if you think its that good, sheila. Night all
<James> I keep two ISPs, for my sins, and I'm much faster on the other one.
<@SLViehl2> Night Kay
<Danielle2> night Kay!
<Robert> Night, Kay!
<Fredrick> Good night
<Jehane> bye kay
<@SLViehl2> thanks for the email offer
<James> Night, Kay.
<Kaelle> Night!
<BarGnat> Night Kay
<Anne_Marble> yES
<Anne_Marble> sORRY, i WAS POWDERING MY NOSE
<CiceroCat> nite kay
<Anne_Marble> whoops
<@SLViehl2> hand over that question, Ms. Marble
<CiceroCat> wb anne
<Anne_Marble> How do I improve my description?! And background? For example, how do I explain in the Gorok/Wulf story that the prison is a compound with multiple buildings without slowing down the story? (People have gotten confused about that part of my story.) How do I explain its rules (which aren't like those of other prisons), especially from Gorok's POV?
<Fredrick> Have an in.
<Anne_Marble> Without making the thing grind to a halt in the first chapter?
<Danielle2> show what he sees while he's moving through it
<@SLViehl2> Comparisons to what Gorok is familiar with
<Robert> One way might be to insert a sheet of rules and regulations in between chapters like Wulf's journal.
<@SLViehl2> Someone should tell Gorok the rules, too
<Kaelle> As he learns it/sees it
<CiceroCat> you migh not need to put too many details in the first chapter
<James> He could break a rule, someone tries to help him by outlineing the rules.
<Danielle2> but pick details he can contrast with what he's known of prisons, if anything
<Fredrick> Use the warden to "explain" the rules
<Jehane> have your characters break some rules without realising then have them punished
<Robert> Refer to 'the third building on the left' by its name.
<CiceroCat> yeah, like a -- if you want to keep your legs intact, you follow these rules bub
<Danielle2> show its different by having him think about what's 'normal'
<@SLViehl2> Instead of describing each and every detail, pick out the most important ones
<Fredrick> A prison without walls?
<Anne_Marble> OK, all those sound cool.
<Robert> Show the rules when people break them or people are threatened, but if you want the rules concise, a rules sheet might be handed to Gorok.
<Anne_Marble> It's on an island with nasty things that keep you from leaving.
<Robert> If he can't read the language he'd have to get Wulf or someone to read them to him.
<Danielle2> remember smell and feel as well as sight
<James> Named or numbered buildings is good, Robert. Put him in building 7, you know there are at least six others.
<BarGnat> And only see them through the POV C's eyes
<CiceroCat> maybe a family member tells him? or rumor?
<@SLViehl2> And have Gorok allude them to what he knows -- "It was like a forest, but all the tress where stone turrets"
<Fredrick> The movie No Escape had a good scene like that
<Danielle2> prison's would have a definate smell and texture
<CiceroCat> or maybe he landed in a different prison before but was let out after a day--false accusation
<Kaelle> "OK, these are the rules here...Follow them or die."
<Danielle2> contrast that with the more pleasant description of Wulf
<James> A big carved monument with the rules etched into it, placed right outside his prison window where he has to look at it every day.
<Anne_Marble>
<@SLViehl2> Gorok is a nature boy, so everything is going to seem wierd to him, right?
<Fredrick> Rule No. 1 You make your own rules
<Robert> Gorok is that bewildered at it, so many of the rules will show up when Gorok doesn't know them. Ooh nice, james.
<@SLViehl2> good idea, James
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, he's a ranger.
<Robert> An old time prisoiner can "show him the ropes" and all the unwritten rules that always happen in prisons.
<Anne_Marble> "Don't drop the soap."
<Danielle2> he could be surprised that he can go outside from this prison still, relieved
<Kaelle> snarf
<BarGnat> rofl
<@SLViehl2> Or he's whipped, once for every rule, as they tell him about them
<Robert> lol Anne
<BarGnat> But the idea of an old-timer as a mentor is good
<Lucas> Make sure that, besides the physical descriptions, you attach some kind of emotional reaction to the different areas. This can help keep the various locations discrete, because the overtones will be different even if the outward appearances are similar.
<Fredrick> What if he was the only male in a prison full of women?
<Robert> I like that, Sheila. They will sometimes do punishments like that in prisons just to let you know it's harsh.
<Anne_Marble> "Wow, they let me walk out of the dining room."
<BarGnat> "Come to me if you have a question"
<James> If he's the cranky type and determined to get out soon as, he could just march up to someone and toss 'em against the wall, saying, "Okay, what are the rules. The real rules."
<Danielle2> yeah!
<Anne_Marble> Heh, that wouldn't work in this story, Frederick.
<Fredrick> A shame
<Robert> The old time mentor would be someone with a life sentence.
<Anne_Marble> Wulf would miss him. ;->
<Fredrick> Conjugal visits wouldn't be a problem
<Anne_Marble> But Gorok is gay.
<Danielle2> Wulf can brief him on how to survive, the real rules
<Fredrick> Oh
<@SLViehl2> I remember my reaction to being tossed into basic training the first day. Nothing was familiar. I was completely intimidated and there was this big TI screaming at me all day
<Danielle2> so Wulf helps him, despite everything
<Danielle2> have someone tell him FALSE rules to get him in trouble!
<@SLViehl2> I think prison would be a lot like basic training
<Robert> Like that, Danielle!
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, yeah, I can think of someone who'd do that!
<@SLViehl2> ouch, nice twist, Dani
<Kaelle> Good one, Danielle
<James> Agree, good one, Danielle.
<Fredrick> Good one, Danielle
<CiceroCat> Gorok is gay?
<@SLViehl2> Anne, that could work in with you mage-contempt scene really well
<Danielle2> use this foreign word to address guards <snigger>
<CiceroCat> sorry lagging
<Robert> And let a political prisoner rant, to show the political gulag aspects of the mage prison. There will be activists in it.
<Anne_Marble> Yup
<Fredrick> Telepathic prisoners
<Anne_Marble> Oh, that would be good, Robert. A mage standing on a table.
<Robert> In fact you should show a political prisoner's reactions to show how rough they are about political stuff.
<CiceroCat> i think i remember you mention him in a chat...
<@SLViehl2> Wulf might set Gorok straight on the rules later on
<Anne_Marble> Ranting about the Triad of Mages.
<Lucas> Prisons, just like any other places, will have power groups. There will be in groups and out groups. Some people will have arranged to get cushier situations within the prison than their fellows. Gangs will be rampant.
<Danielle2> yeah, makes Wulf even more sympathetic
<Fredrick> How about demerits?
<James> Can the rules be magically thrust into a newbie's brain: lot of pain, but you can't forget them, even in your sleep...
<Robert> Do they stop the prisoners from talking about their politics the way the old USSR did, or do they just not care about lifers?
<Fredrick> Each time you fail, you get a demerit?
<Danielle2> who gets the cushiest magical artifacts to study
<@SLViehl2> red line inspections
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that, James. He could have rules repeating over and over...
<@SLViehl2> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Fredrick> What about slang?
<Robert> Get nasty on them, Anne. Make it rough! (G) Have fun!
<Fredrick> Prisons have tons of it
<CiceroCat> neat idea james
<Anne_Marble> Slang would be hard, he's new to the language.
<Fredrick> True
<@SLViehl2> Anne, I've got something I wrote that I'd like to e-mail to you -- an excerpt about a displaced character -- I think it would help
<Robert> Then you can get him laughed at for misusing it often!
<Fredrick> But he could pick up a few things along the way
<Danielle2> so his language will now mark him out as a prisoner if he learns in jail
<Fredrick> Is he in with the warden?
<Anne_Marble> OK, thanks. Do you have my thingie?
<@SLViehl2> got it
<Anne_Marble> No, the warden doesn't like him.
<Lucas> Letting people talk all they want could be a torture because, after a while,it will all seem useless and people won't even have the energy to carry on about their driving issues anymore. If it's just talk, it could get depressing.
<Fredrick> Shawshank Redemption
<Fredrick> Prisoner with a skill
<Robert> Lucas might have a point.
<@SLViehl2> CC, have you got a question for us tonight?
<Anne_Marble> Magical poster of Raquel Welsh. ;->
<CiceroCat> yeah, lol lots but.... okay...
<Trasa> lol Anne
<CiceroCat> Mine's a weird question....
<@SLViehl2> one sec -- is there anyone else who has a question?
<CiceroCat> yeah, if someone has a really pressing one, i'm willing ot wait till next time
<@SLViehl2> Trasa, how about you?
<CiceroCat> did Jinx get a turn?
<Jinx> I've already passed, thanks
<Trasa> nope, just wanted to sit in on this for a time before coming out with something. Thanks, though.
<@SLViehl2> Jinx passed on us
<CiceroCat> ah sorry (seive like mind)
<@SLViehl2> Okay, CC, throw it at us
<CiceroCat> ok
<@SLViehl2> No problem, Trasa, we love sit-ins
<CiceroCat> I have a two groups of magic related people in my world -- anti-mages and mages... the anti-mages "feed" vampire like on the mages after they do spells (they sense their doing magic)
<CiceroCat> i need some ideas on how they actually feed and other reasons that mage might avoid doing magic because of antimagic people...
<CiceroCat> (i guess like consequences of feeding)
<Fredrick> body piercings
<Robert> Perhaps being fed on by antimages slowly ruins their health and is painful.
<Trasa> feed as in physically, or feed off the mental/magical energy?
<CiceroCat> so far all i have is they can't do magic for a while and get tired
<James> The feeding might distort the spell, making unexpected consequences.
<Danielle2> drink at eyelids and mouth the residue of magic
<@SLViehl2> where does the mages' magice come from? The Soul?
<Lucas> Do the spells themselves exhaust the same kind of the energy that the antimages feed off of?
<CiceroCat> hmmm... not sure on that, shiela... i know it'ls like a rechargable battery
<Robert> Perhaps being fed on by antimages can both reduce the mage's ability to do magic and weaken lifeenergy.
<Fredrick> This is crazy, but perhaps they have a straw-like appendage
<Trasa> physical evidence like smallpox scars
<Anne_Marble> They could have little tentacles like the people in the Sime-Gen series.
<@SLViehl2> thinking of wasps for some reason -- leaving magic-draining stingers in the victims
<Danielle2> anti-mages do stuff to force mages to use magic so they can feed
<Robert> Like if the antimages go too far health is permanently ruined.
<CiceroCat> hmm... lol, i haven't thought much on that either-- i know that the antimagic people suck al ot of magic energy reserves from the mages
<Robert> Scarring is good. Maybe anti mages leave scars when they feed.
<Danielle2> attack them forcing magic
<CiceroCat> but i never thought fi a spell would be storng enough to do that anyway
<Danielle2> keep them prisoner
<Lucas> If the antimages could locate mages when the mages weren't performing magic, could they still feed off of them? Or are the mages only vulnerable to the parasitic antimages after they have worked magic?
<CiceroCat> ooh, i have one of those books anne
<Sarah> Or discoloured patches of skin, like birthmarks.
<Fredrick> gives them cramps, nausea, diarrhea
<Robert> Right, perhaps depleting them below what non mages would have for life energy.
<@SLViehl2> you want something that draws energy from the mages
<James> The anti-mages might be the ones in authority: they compel magic from the mages they enslave so they can feed.
<@SLViehl2> nice and ghastly, James
<Robert> Perhaps once drained a mage is apathetic and depressed, lacks energy and emotion, doesn't care about anything.
<CiceroCat> they can kinda sense each other --cause mages give off a faint hum -- and they are like magnets
<Danielle2> maybe its magnetic, the anti-magic tugs in the magic so a spell takes more magic than it really needs to
<Trasa> maybe one of the anti-mages figures out he doesn't have to feed off mages, but can reverse the energy flow
<Robert> Being enslaved is a real thing to avoid!
<CiceroCat> neat idea james
<@SLViehl2> or anti-mages are like blow flies -- congregating
<Kaelle> Do the anti-mages feed for food or for magic for themselves?
<Fredrick> anti-mages are like organic black holes
<Robert> That's what I was thinking.
<James> Feeding might irritate the organ in the brain which shapes and controls magic -- so a mage ends up with an irritation induced cancer if overfed on.
<CiceroCat> so avoiding slavery might work.... oh that reminds me i had hte idea that if a mage didn't get drained once in a while he'd combust (they don'tk now the reason is related to the anti's)
<Robert> Feeding may slowly reduce the mage's intelligence and creativity too.
<Fredrick> localized spontaneous combustion
<Danielle2> symbiotic, not parasitic
<CiceroCat> organic black holes...neat
<@SLViehl2> I like that, CC -- the balance of nature
<James> Or being fed on my be such a lovely sensation that mages can't stop letting people feed once it starts.
<Robert> Oh I like that. SO the natural balance is symbiotic but anti mages sometimes abuse it and mages do have to blow it off somewhere.
<CiceroCat> so maybe more physical consequences too...
<Trasa> do you have a relationship between a mage and an anti-mage?
<CiceroCat> lol i'm very much into symbotic/parasitical relationships
<Robert> Perhaps excess magical energy causes jitters, ADHD and insomniaa, too much energy.
<CiceroCat> you mean in as in specific characters? or in general in the story?
<Danielle2> have to burn it off by doing magic
<Trasa> or are they completely isolated from each other except for this feeding?
<Trasa> both.
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, like the Sime-Gen series, only without the weird tentacle thingies. And I like the idea of the magic being involved.
<Sarah> Fevers. If they have too much magical energy and aren't drained, their temperature rises to compensate, heart rate and blood pressure increase, and aneurysms abound...
<Fredrick> feeding drives mages into a killing frenzy
<CiceroCat> well, i had the idea that antimages kinda go into a craze -- if they sense a mage using magic they run aroudn to they find and feed off him...
<Fredrick> or a rutting frenzy
<James> Every mage has a specific individual who is their anti-mage -- bad things happen if the wrong anti-mage feeds on them, but they become more powerful, better mages if fed on by their specific anti-mage.
<CiceroCat> mages try not to do magic in the outside
<Robert> Yeah, I like that CC
<Trasa> magic energy as sexual energy
<Danielle2> can too many antimages kill a mage?
<CiceroCat> lol tentacles....
<@SLViehl2> the ying/yang ideas are really good
<Fredrick> magic can only be done during orgies
<CiceroCat> hmmm never thought of that either killing a mage
<Danielle2> cool James
<Robert> wow, Sheila, someone else read SIme-Gen
<Kaelle> Do the anti-mages fight over who gets the mage?
<Danielle2> like a shark attack
<James> Magically transmitted diseases?
<CiceroCat> oh and my two main characters are gonna get bound together by a rite, and they are secret antimage and mage
<@SLViehl2> if one species is a provider, and the other a predator, they would physically suit each other
<Fredrick> magic as a virus
<Danielle2> its a delicate balance between the two though
<Robert> Which makes them compatible but the mage half of the pair has to hide from the competing antimages.
<Lucas> Could an antimage have a problem because the mage he just tried to feed off of was actually an antimage who, at that moment, was recieving energy from a mage? I'm not sure how this would play out, but it's an idea.
<CiceroCat> ooh, i like that comparison, like a shark frenzy at the smell of blood
<Trasa> That's a great center to the book, CC, the relationship between two poles
<Danielle2> drain em dry like a milkshake
<@SLViehl2> higher anti-mages would learn control over the frenzy
<Fredrick> mage and anti-mage need a buffer
<CiceroCat> neat idea too lucas, never thought of that....
<Robert> Yeah, are there people in the world who aren't either?
<Fredrick> an organic third
<@SLViehl2> you need some non-magical people, maybe
<@SLViehl2> we all clicked into that
<Danielle2> arbiters
<CiceroCat> my main character ws never drained before this, because's a lord's son (protected from people entering castle)
<@SLViehl2> dependent on both mages and anti-mages
<Danielle2> oo first-timer!
<CiceroCat> you mean a combo--both anti and mage?
<CiceroCat> lol dani
<@SLViehl2> Time -- any last questions, comments for CC?
<Fredrick> maybe a hybrid
<Danielle2> great idea!
<Robert> I mean people without either mage ability or draining ability.
<Robert> Though that would be cool too, a hybrid.
<CiceroCat> neat..... you guys are really stirring the creative juices
<Robert> A hybrid might be able to shift modes and do either.
<Fredrick> he'd be confused as hell, trying to drain himseld
<Lucas> Or perhaps someone with the ability to drain, and then rebroadcast magic energy, but not use it himself.
<CiceroCat> that'd be aneat idea -- maybe that would be why my mc doesn't want to do magic
<@SLViehl2> I would go with a ying/yang scenario and the buffer is cool, too.
<Danielle2> lol fredrick
<Trasa> a conductor
<Fredrick> a human tuning fork
<CiceroCat> (because he's both)
<@SLViehl2> lol Fredrick
<Trasa> a magic battery
<Kaelle> lol
<CiceroCat> cool.... i'll definitely haev al ot to mull over tonight
<James> Look for opposites in the ecosystem of your world -- this system will likely turn up in other creatures, too, if it's in humans.
<@SLViehl2> Thanks to all for an amazing session -- wow, the questions tonight!
<@SLViehl2> (mind is still reeling)
<Kaelle> yay
<Robert> Yep, same here! (G)
<Anne_Marble> Mine, too
<CiceroCat> nother good idea james.... maybe my whole world is built on opposites ying yang type
<BarGnat> thx for all the help, everyone
<CiceroCat> this was fun, thanks all!!
<James> It did seem an especially good session -- maybe I've just stopped being used to it!
<Robert> That would be so neat, CC
<CiceroCat>
<Kaelle> You're all entirely welcome.
<@SLViehl2> We're getting better every week, I think, James
<Lucas> This was good. I'm glad I came back!
<Sarah> <humming> Getting better all the ti-ii-iiime....
<Kaelle> The more the merrier.
<Danielle2> I'm glad I came for the first time!
<Anne_Marble> Sigh. Talk about tacky, I read a post on sff.net -- in the Fictionwise newsgroup -- where someone crowed about breaking the encryption code they use for the new MobiPocket books. And posted the instructions!
<@SLViehl2> If you get a chance, stop in next week and let's do it again
<Trasa> I'm glad I caught the last part of this conference, hope to make a whole set next time.
<Danielle2> definately comin back!!
<Kaelle> C'mon and join the party!
<Robert> I hope someone's transcribing because my computer's still being wonky.
<@SLViehl2> please do, Trasa, everyone's always welcome
<James> For sure, getting better -- think what we'll be like next year... Scary
<CiceroCat> weird anne....
<BarGnat> How in the world do you transcribe, Robert?
<@SLViehl2> I'm going to make a transcript of what I have since I bounced, but if anyone has a complete, I'd appreciate a copy
<Anne_Marble> All because he disapproved of the fact that they're now selling some encrypted titles.
<Fredrick> thanks for a fun time
<Kaelle> I think I do, Sheila
<Jinx> Unfortunately, I bounced too.
<CiceroCat> yup i definitely like the TT, all the q's are neat
<Robert> I used to copy and paste while it was going on but now my pointer won't let me highlight what's on screen.
<Fredrick> select all option?
<CiceroCat> don't think it's there
<@SLViehl2> Thanks, Kae -- whenever you can send it will be fine. Making mine now. Night all -- hope to see you next week!