Workshop & Class Transcripts: Checking on Culture, Class 2

Pre-Class Rules: Please do not post until you see the word QUESTIONS posted. Please don't chat during class. Please stop posting question when you see CLASS.

The size of print in this chat is small, and I have trouble reading it. I may misunderstand a question. If so, ask again or ask later. I will be very happy to answer any questions later if I miss them here

I will cut and paste a number of blocks, one after another, and then post QUESTIONS. At that point I'll stop while everyone reads what's been posted and asks any questions.

Welcome to Lee Killough's Checking on Culture -- A checklist for Cultural Building, Class 2. The Killough book is the primary work I've used for this class. Definitions come from the Random House Webster's College Dictionary.

A brief recap:

In class one we covered the first six sections of 'Integrating with the Environment.' These were Habitat, Anatomy, Hygiene, Clothing, Modesty, and Etiquette.

QUESTIONS

@zette-- I'm trying to keep the bits shorter this time. (grin)
CiceroCat-- how big is Killough's book?
CiceroCat--
Robert&Ari-- Is this a print book or an ebook?
@zette-- This one I'm using? It's a very small 56 or so page booklet. You'd hardly even notice it on a shelf.
CiceroCat-- ah k, thnx
@zette-- I was lucky I happened to be going over some material on a table at a con and saw it.
CiceroCat--
Jehane-- Do you have an email address to find out postage costs overseas, or should I write to the above address?
@zette-- You can go to her AuthorsDen site and find out from her. I had the address in the last class.
Jehane-- thanks, will do
@zette-- I think it's http://www.authorsden/killough.... but I could be wrong.
@zette-- Okay, shall we go on with the class?

CLASS

7. Marriage

Definition: the social institution under which a man and woman live as husband and wife by legal or religious commitments. 2. the state, condition or relationship of being married. 3. the living arrangement without legal sanction: a trail marriage.

Killough: What courting and marriage customs do your people practice? Is courtship ritualized? Strictly chaperoned? Do couples find their own mates or is marriage arranged?

Does the female, or the male, take a dowry into the marriage? Does the prospective bridegroom pay a bride price? Or the bride pay a groom price? Are wives or husbands simply kidnapped?

Zette: Women in a polygamous marriage often have less work because it is shared with the other wives. However, it can also become a hierarchy of stations, with the newest and youngest getting the grunt work while the first wife reigns as queen.

A polyandrous marriage means one woman has two or more husbands. This might work in a society that is either over populated, or has a much higher male to female ratio.

Do not forget to take into account the extended families when you start looking at courtship and marriage. Perspective in-laws often have much to say about whether the other family is suitable.

And, of course, consider any class barriers to be crossed in a match. Also, the more primitive the culture, the most likely it is that one or the other (or both) might have to prove themselves a suitable match -- a good worker, a good hunter, etc.

Is marriage permanent? What are the ways that it can be dissolved? Returning the bridge gift? Hiring an assassin to kill the husband?

How about engagements? Are they held strictly binding? Is a child matched up with a mate at a young age, and if so when do they first meet?

If you are working with an alien race, look back again to the habitat and consider anything that might make this group different in its marriage arrangements.

And what about a star faring culture? What changes might you find in marriage rules on ships?

QUESTIONS

Robert&Ari-- Lot of my questions got answered later in the section!
CiceroCat-- when you were talking about permancy of marriage, does some cultures actually have marriage only last a certain amount of years? then they can choose someone else if they want afterwards?
PuristLove-- How often do cultures pop up where there is no marriage, in other words free love, or mating for less than life? I can think of the handfasting ritual for one
PuristLove-- are there others?
Robert&Ari-- A pagan handfast is a year and a day as if married, and needs to be renewed.
@zette-- I have an example of an odd sort of marriage of that type coming up in families. But ... this is about what you can create for YOUR books. If you want something like that, consider how the culture would build around it.
CiceroCat-- cool, robert....
CiceroCat-- was that to me or PL?
Robert&Ari-- A culture might consider sensibly that having a child meant a permanent commitment on the couple's part and they couldn't divorce till the child reached a certain age.
CiceroCat-- hmmm, lol--i ask because i was considering such a marriage type in one of my worlds....
Robert&Ari-- Some cultures won't let someone who's barren or infertile marry at all.
Robert&Ari-- Or allow that as grounds for divorce.
CiceroCat-- really?
@zette-- There are a some cultures where wives can be given away as gifts. You can create just about anything you want for a fantasy or sf book. Just consider the ramifications.
CiceroCat-- ah
CiceroCat-- k
@zette-- In your case, CC, you might want to consider how they would view 'homes.' Who gets what? Who provides what? How do they part and move on?
karenth-- Imagine a society where, either because the children mature quickly, or the society is structured that all children are taken care of, that marriage is purely for companionship...
Cailin-- Consider the reverse - the female dominant in the marriage and able to give the HUSBAND away.
Robert&Ari-- There's a twist on this that I ran into in that the Middle East thinks of women as being sexually voracious and likely to be unfaithful, much of the West thinks it's the reverse.
CiceroCat-- hmmm, thanks zette--I'll definitely think about those consequences.
Robert&Ari-- Is fidelity an issue and which gender is more under suspicion of sleeping around?
CiceroCat-- like a tribe raises the child, karenth?
karenth-- "takes a village" yeah
@zette-- Marriage is something that too few people consider in making a culture, and yet you can have a lot of fun with it in creating something different for your book.
PuristLove-- I guess the biggest issue in a culture where there is no marriage would be birthright
PuristLove-- have to be matrilineal
karenth-- oh, yeah...
CiceroCat-- yeah

CLASS

8. Sex

Definition: the instinct or attracting drawing one individually toward another, or the cultural phenomena, behavior or activities that it motivates.

Killough: ... This is the place to think about sex practices, restrictions, taboos. Is sex strictly relegated to marriage or some other formal arrangement? Or not? Is rape physically possible among your people?

What sexual slang do they have? My characters have referred to 'counting coup,' 'flat dancing,' and 'skin talk,' and used the terms 'ho' and 'het' to label peoples' sexual preference.

Zette: When is it appropriate for a couple to engage in sex? What sorts of rituals are taken before or afterwards? In some cultures, sexual contact is considered a contamination that must be cleansed.

How much education about sex is given in your culture? What are the roles expected to be played by the people involved, either in submission or dominance?

What are the results of not following the laws or rites associated with sexual behavior? What choices do the people have in deciding their own preferences?

QUESTIONS

@zette-- I kept this one purposely short because i'm sure you people can think of plenty of choices with this one all on your own. (grin)
CiceroCat-- lol
Robert&Ari-- These are all wonderful sources of conflict, right down to "one character's culture does not kiss" level for the G rating version.
karenth--
CiceroCat-- oh yeah
@zette-- Okay, get your minds back on work.
PuristLove-- In a society with a strict social hierarchy, where each tier must be completely submissive to the higher tiers in the case of sex, what would be neccessary to make everyone happy about the arrangement?
CiceroCat-- lol
karenth-- lol
Jehane-- why do they have to be happy?
PuristLove-- I know bonobo chimps are like this, has it ever been done in people?
CiceroCat-- true
@zette-- Not that I know of, PL.
Jehane-- they might just be accepting - that's the way it's always been done
PuristLove-- Jehane, I'm trying to do something in the tradition of De Sade, where a different set of morality is presented, but its just as "right" as ours
CiceroCat-- maybe, like in a Auel's cave people books--have it be a signal that says when they want to uhm have sexual relations wiht a person
CiceroCat-- no so much as--just grab and take ?
Robert&Ari-- Jean Auel pretty much did that in Clan of the Cave Bear among the Clan, the women all served the men's needs and didn't connect that with fertility.
Kay-- I cannot imagine any circumstance in which everyone would be happy with the arrangement, or any thing that could make it so
CiceroCat-- is that what you mean?
@zette-- But the lowest rank, especially, would have to have some 'payment' to make it acceptable. Or perhaps what you have is a 'round' heirarchy, rather than a layered one, which would put bottom and top closest toeach other.
CiceroCat-- lol robert we are in sync
PuristLove-- oooh zette, that is interesting, thank you
Robert&Ari-- Or the lowest rank isn't expected to be happy at all, being scapegoats for everyone else.
karenth-- maybe the submissive ones could get to keep the children?
CiceroCat-- true
Jehane-- possibly some sort of religious connection, where the higher ranks are closer to the god(s)
PuristLove-- hmm I think I'm going to disconnect children from sex altogether... these are elves, their kids can come from magic
Robert&Ari-- Who said your culture had to be just or right or livable except to the people advantaged by it who think it's okay and grew up taking it for granted?
PuristLove-- sex is solely for pleasure
PuristLove-- and social domination
Jehane-- so being singled out from an above rank would be good
CiceroCat-- neat idea PL
@zette-- Keeping the children is not always the way to happiness, especially if they are the ones caring and providing for them.
CiceroCat-- so it would be like an honor, PL?
CiceroCat-- i mean, Jehane
Jehane-- yeah
CiceroCat-- that could work--depends on the people's views i guess
karenth-- true, zette...
PuristLove-- ok, I'm getting a lot of good ideas on this
@zette-- PL, if they're elves... connect sex with the transfer of magical pwoers.
Kay-- Honor is nice , but it doesn't buy pampers or pay college tuition, and that translates every way except in an agrarian culture, wher children are working assets
Robert&Ari-- Yeah, in any fantasy novel tantric sexual magic is a potent source of energy for all kinds of things.
@zette-- Power can only be handed downward, in other words. Sex with an equal gains nothing.
karenth-- except pleasure?
CiceroCat-- well maybe they'd think it was a blessing--if it happens, they now will have good luck, good harvest, good hunt, etc
Cailin-- That must suck for the people on top.
PuristLove-- and with the circular arrangement, once it had worked its way to the bottom it could come back to the top, amplified somehow
Robert&Ari-- Sex as a social defense against those above, who can choose anyone they want anytime for pleasure or dominance.
@zette-- Not if they are already very powerful, and Godlike, able to give power as a gift to others.
CiceroCat-- nother good idea robert
@zette-- That might work, PL!
Robert&Ari-- But those at the top might be competitive with each other and might not have it that easy.
PuristLove-- maybe I could disconnect sexual dominance from social status also
PuristLove-- have it tied to time of year your born or something
karenth-- interesting, purist!
@zette-- Play around with different ideas, PL. I think you might have something interesting here.
Robert&Ari-- That's something very different again, interesting, PL
@zette-- Ah! Back to class!
PuristLove-- yeah, i think this will be fun

CLASS

9. Families

Definition (Family) Any group of persons closely related by blood, as parents, children, uncles, aunts and cousins.

Killough: What kind of families do your people have? Is Father or eldest male head of the family, or does the real power reside with Mother or the eldest female? What is the actual family structure?

Numerous possibilities exist beyond the nuclear or extended family. The family may be indistinguishable from the community, with ever older adult called Uncle, Aunt, Father, Mother, Grandfather, Grandmother...and all like-generation children called Cousin or Brother or Sister.

... Work out, also, the kinship nomenclature in your people. Where lineage is keenly important to the culture, kinship names become quite involved.

...How are children in your society named? With the family/clan name first followed by individual names? Are children named in honor of relatives or important people?

Zette: Do not get caught in the cultural trap of basing your family on the supposed norm of our day (mother, father, children as a single unit). Adapt them to your environment and the culture you are already beginning to create.

How is the right to belong to a family defined? What happens to the people who do not belong to a family in your world? Are orphans fair game for workshops?

Are outsiders without family powerless? Does marrying into a family give that person the same rights as one born into it? Are there strong adoption rights?

One Hindu sect, the Nayar, contract a marriage, which lasts only three days and ends in divorce. Women may take lovers, whom they may keep for years but dismiss simply by returning his last gift. The family unit is made up of the woman, her sons and daughters.

After the mother's death, the son moves into his sister's home and helps care for her children. The Nayar men are mercenaries, and it is believed that they should not set up households or take on the work of fathers, allowing them to take to the field at a moment's notice without incurring problems at home.

QUESTIONS

Robert&Ari-- Here's a good one: sibling adoption. He saves my life. I adopt him as brother. My mom must treat him like she does me.
CiceroCat-- how would a race who wanted equality in gender have it relate to the family's last name?
Jehane-- sounds like my kind of religion
CiceroCat-- neat one robert
PuristLove-- CC perhaps you mesh the names
@zette-- last name could be place name, clan name, chosen name...
karenth-- not a hyphenated name, but a blending?
karenth-- ah PL
Jehane-- cc: how about having daughters take mother's name, sons take father's
@zette-- Or might not have a last name at all, but a set of chosen names that don't indicate any relationship with others in the family.
CiceroCat-- ah
Robert&Ari-- One story I read did just that, with a syllable from mom's name and a syllable from dad's and a new one for the child.
CiceroCat-- that might work Jehane, never considered that
Kay-- it's what Dan and I had agreed to
PuristLove-- take the name of the most powerful family? one whose closest to throne?
Robert&Ari-- Are you responsible for your parents' crimes and debts?
CiceroCat-- i was considering doing--which ever family has the most power will be the name of the last name of the kids
CiceroCat-- i just wonder how they keep track of their lineage then
karenth-- fortunes rise and fall...
@zette-- If there is political or status to be gained by association, that's the way it would go.
Kay-- With Family Tree Maker, of course!
CiceroCat-- and if it's equal they'd choose or do a hyphenatoin
karenth-- lol kay!
Jehane-- they might have to know their lineage very well, like Icelandic people
CiceroCat-- lol kay
karenth-- cc: with a time indicator maybe
CiceroCat-- time indicator?
Robert&Ari-- If you marry someone with children, do you automatically get to adopt those children? Do they take your name?
@zette-- Or they might not care about lineage, except in royalty or something like that.
karenth-- well, if you know the year the child was named, maybe you know what happened then
DragonDancer-- when a clan begins to die out, would they want to be absorbed into another one or stand alone?
CiceroCat-- hmm, true zette
CiceroCat-- oh! okay, karenth
Robert&Ari-- Are names given by shamans from omens seen at birth and have nothing to do with family?
Cailin-- You might have a class of people whose sole job is to remember who begat whom, and their notable deeds.
CiceroCat-- lots of interesting possibilities...
karenth-- neat cailin!
Cailin-- Like the filidh did in the ancient Celtic cultures
CiceroCat-- lol, that might work too cailin! good i dea
Cailin-- Or my mom does now, lol.
@zette-- That's good Cailin! I can see if for fantasy, but you know... you could do something interesting with that for SF as well.
CiceroCat-- go to a database of genealogy for sf?
karenth-- or the family mentat
CiceroCat--
Robert&Ari-- What about marriage and kinship between alien species whre breeding is right out of it? What's the relationship of that family's dragonriders' dragons to each other?
PuristLove-- you could have an AI that keeps track of that, then starts mixing it up for reasons of its own
@zette-- I'm thinking more in terms of a person who has that kind of power. LOL Karenth!
PuristLove-- could be lots of fun
@zette-- Ah yes, an AI ... could make an interesting story.
karenth-- lol purist!
Robert&Ari-- AI's are people, I wouldn't throw that out.
@zette-- Okay, next section!
Robert&Ari-- What's the kinship of an AI to the group of programmers who worked on him before he awoke to mature consciousness? And to other AI"s written by some but not all of those people?
karenth-- cool!

CLASS

10. Pregnancy

Definition The state, condition or quality of being pregnant.

Killough: The beliefs and customs surrounding childbirth vary widely on our planet. One society expects pregnant women to continue activity as usual up to labor and resume it shortly after. Another treats pregnant women as though they are ill and fragile...

Alien anatomy, though, may make childbirth something completely different from any on earth, from the marsupial, who gives birth without labor and can actually see and touch her child, to the oviparous female who can lay her eggs and leave their care to someone else while she goes on about her usual activity until the eggs hatch.

... so how do your people go about bearing children? What customs and taboos surround the process? Any ceremonies? Do they attempt sex selection? Do they have superstitions or rituals to divine the sex...?

Who delivers the baby... the mother by herself... with the assistance of family women or a midwife... a doctor? Where does childbirth take place... home... a hospital? Elsewhere?

Zette: Are there rituals surrounding the appearance of a new child? Is the child named immediately? Do members of the family or clan acknowledge the child, or must the child survive a prescribed number of days before it is believed to be acceptable?

What happens to a woman who has a dangerous preganacy? Is abortion possible to save the life of the mother? Is your society one that might go through regular and dangerous famines and regulate childbirth accordingly?

Diamond Jenness, in The People of the Twilight, told of how an Eskimo woman who gave birth to a daughter just before the tribe migrated. They killed the baby knowing she would suffer far worse through the terrible hardships of the coming journey, when many of the tribe starved.

QUESTIONS

Robert&Ari-- Female infanticide seems to come up in many distant cultures with harsh conditions as a way of regulating tribe size.
@zette-- These are fairly short sections, but a lot to think about for your curlture.
CiceroCat-- true
CiceroCat-- doesn't china do that, robert?
Robert&Ari-- That's what I was thinking.
CiceroCat-- it seems kinda weird, to me--if you let it go too far, there's only men and so few women
CiceroCat-- then they start killing off the males, i guess
Kevin-- how about a culture that practices infantcide as a way of propagating evolution, to evolve to one habitat more rapidly
Robert&Ari-- I think war does that.
Gayle-- which is why women are kidnapped and taken to another province (china)
CiceroCat-- btw, i do have a question--before uhm more modern times... let's say in a medievalish time--did a lot of women die in childbirth?
karenth-- kevin, that's interesting....
DragonDancer-- cc: YES
CiceroCat-- never thought of that, kevin--neat
CiceroCat-- thnx dd
Cailin-- Women usually stay close to home and have a higher survival rate. Males can be killed working, hunting, fighting, etc.
@zette-- Yes. Childbed fever was a major factor in the death of women and their children.
Robert&Ari-- Midwives in the middle ages were sometimes prosecuted for giving anesthesia to women in childbirth because it went against Genesis saying women should suffer in labor.
CiceroCat-- whoa
karenth-- snarl
Cailin-- ,!,, that! Give me the anesthesia!
PuristLove-- kevin that has interesting implications for the gene mapping stuff... already if a child has a genetic disorder and something that CAN be fatal, the parents are given the choice to let the child die without medicine when first born
CiceroCat-- lol cailin---i'm with ya, girl
@zette-- Robert, they had no such thing in medieval times. They might have some herbs and such... but over all there was very little they could do anyway.
Robert&Ari-- From the sources I read, some of the herbs were fairly effective, but even trying was considered sinful.
@zette-- Ah, I can see that.
PuristLove-- opium poppy would have been around...
CiceroCat-- yeah
Kevin-- exactly PL. i was also thinking if a species migrated from forest to plains, they would kill the smallest and the runts as opposed to the larger, hardier children and the opposite if they are moving to the forest
Cailin-- A good dose of opium.... yup
DragonDancer-- I read about one culture where the woman doesn't find childbirth painful but her husband struggles beside her and acts like he's suffering
@zette-- In some places, PL. It was not all that common, I don't think.
Robert&Ari-- Dragon - I ran into that in more than one culture.
CiceroCat-- lol, poor runts/smaller children
PuristLove-- Kevin, you could make a powerful point with that story
DragonDancer-- wow, didn't know it was more than that one, Robert! cool...
CiceroCat-- also, a consideration on the abortion aspect--when is it too late to have one? Maybe a culture considers a newborn of a few days still as abortion-able
Robert&Ari-- Marion Zimmer Bradley used it with the telepathic caste on Darkover, the husbands DID experience it with the woman.
@zette-- Again, losts of stuff to consider here that not many writers cover.
CiceroCat-- neat dd
Robert&Ari-- And for aliens there's the seahorse biology, the male takes the fertilized eggs into his pouch!
@zette-- Alien Nation
PuristLove-- yeah
CiceroCat-- neat
PuristLove-- would a marsupial creature be much closer in bond to the parent that carried it?
Robert&Ari-- Alien Nation did it beautifully with much complex ceremony and social connection and reverence for it.
PuristLove-- or be too young to form that bond?
DragonDancer-- that is very cool
Robert&Ari-- Any marsupial race might develop prenatal adoption fairly easily, making stepmothers a lot closer to their children.
@zette-- I think the bonding is about the same, PL, in terran marsupials.
@zette-- Onward! Running out of time! ACK!

CLASS

11. Childhood

Definition The state or period of being a child.

Killough: Childhood varies profoundly with the culture. Children may be considered merely small versions of adults, expected to behave like adults and share as much of the labor as their size and strength permit.

Or children may be given freedom from responsibility until a certain age. In groups with high infant mortality, children are not named nor considered truly born until they have survived for a requisite number of days or weeks...

Many African societies group children in age-grad divisions, and most of their childhood activities center around that group. In adult life, their closest social ties remain in their age-grade division....

Are there taboos connected with childhood? What games do children play? What toys do they play with...?

In working out childhood, match it to adult life. Fierce warriors are not unlikely to have spent a carefree, insulated childhood, nor is the carefree childhood likely to exist in a frontier/colonial setting where the population is struggling...

Zette: Who is responsible for the welfare of the child on a day-to-day basis? Often it is an older sister who takes care of the children, especially in a society where the preparation of food takes considerable work.

Is the child allowed to roam free at a young age? Is everyone in the community expected to take care of the children?

Can a child turn to some other member of the community for protection from an abusive parent?

What obligations does the child owe to the community as he ages? At what age is it possible for the child to leave the community?

QUESTIONS

Robert&Ari-- These are all sources of conflict when one group is living within a mixed society, one culture's abuse is another culture's routine custom.
@zette-- I missed a line there, where it switched from Lee to me!
Cailin-- I'm experimenting in role-play with a character who never WAS a child. She was created, fully grown. It's had profound effects on her psychology.
@zette-- Zette: Who is responsible for the welfare of the child on a day-to-day basis?
@zette-- Sounds like an interesting character.
@zette-- Not much to say this round?
Cailin-- Good GODS, she's fiercely maternal - but sometimes doesn't understand the children.
CiceroCat-- it would sound like she'd be childlike mentally while in an adult body until her mind development got caught up
Cailin-- CC - yes. She was very like that.
CiceroCat-- cool

CLASS

12. Elders

Definition (Elder) Of great age; older. An aged person.

Killough: in many societies, especially those without writing, elders are vitally important. Having lived the longest, they know the most.... they are the repository of history.... but a written language to preserve knowledge makes society members with long memories less important.

How does your society regard and treat its ledgers? Are they honored for their knowledge? Looked to for guidance and judgment? Or discarded as no longer useful once past their physical prime?

Zette: In traditional Chinese society, a young wife moves in with her husband's family and may spend many lonely years as an outsider, the bottom rung in the family's household.

She works at her mother-in-law's orders, and is not allowed to show any emotional attachment to her husband, and must not speak to him in public, or refer to him by name.

However by the age of about fifty or sixty, this woman will become the head of her own household, with daughters-in-law and grandchildren of her own. Her sons will be closer to her than to their father, though her daughters will move away with husbands.

However, another change will occur when the sons move off with their families to create homes of their own. At this point she loses her authority, but will be equal to her husband who is likely to old to work the fields any longer.

QUESTIONS

Robert&Ari-- It's something to pay attention to with all those long lived and immortal races like elves and vampires too, whose elders are physically no different from the young.
CiceroCat-- like infantcide, i wonder if there's such a thing for aged people?
mosylu-- gericide?
Kevin-- i'm considering a culture where the elders supress writing, so as to maintain importance in society
PuristLove-- euphanasia cicero
PuristLove-- think kevorkian
CiceroCat-- yeah.... neat kevin
CiceroCat-- ah pl
@zette-- There are many cultures where the old are left behind to die when they can't keep up.
mosylu-- what about if an elder was regarded as not quite all there? the respect for their knowledge would be absent, true?
@zette-- But it is less likely to happen in a sedentary society.
karenth-- what would an elder-oriented society look like?
Jehane-- I read about one nomadic culture where the very old will often leave to group to die so they are not a burden
Kevin-- guess that would be geriatricide or something..
CiceroCat-- ah
PuristLove-- zette, the Long Walk of the eskimos comes to mind
Kay-- Keep in mind the Elizabeth Moon society with rejuvenation and the class struggles that's bringing about
Robert&Ari-- Or like this society where the cildren can try to have the elder committed and gain control of their fortune.
Jehane-- euthanasia, cc
CiceroCat--
Kay-- also consider how our society tucks elderly people away in "rest" or "nursing" homes, often drugging them into complacency as in that one E. Moon book
@zette-- I'm going to cover one more section tonight, and then we can talk about any or all of them.
CiceroCat-- k

CLASS

13. Death

Definition The act of dying, the end of life.

Killough: How do your people deal with death? What beliefs and rituals do they practice in regard to death and how do they dispose of the body?

Religion determines many attitudes and beliefs. My Hees believed that while the bodied died, the person lived as long as someone remembered him.

To that end, they inscribed the name on a cup and placed it in a special room where the dutiful members of the family walked the rows of cuts during meditation, touching each in turn.

If your bodies are buried, are they embalmed and laid out straight? Curled in a prenatal Position? Put in protective containers? Or put in a jar with holes punched in the bottom to let the fluids drain away?

Zette: Is death considered a contamination to those around them? Are departing spirits placated? Are the dead buried with special supplies for an afterlife?

Is there also a ritual death? Can a person be proclaimed dead, and turned out from the community? Would they go through all the rituals of a real death? And ignore the presence of the living person? Would that person be killed if caught after the ritual death?

Are the dead feared? At least one Greek General fell in disgrace when he failed to recover the bodies of soldiers who fell in a sea battle, and were therefore believed to have caused Athens bad luck because they did not receive a proper burial.

Are the dead revered? Is a person of power apt to be considered more than just dead, but transcended. A Roman Emperor, in a jest on his deathbed, told those around him that he felt himself becoming a god.

What is the origin of ghosts, and are they always feared, or are they some times sought for answers to questions that fall outside the realm of normal experience?

Questions

CiceroCat-- could burial standards differ according to class?
Kay-- which roman emperor?
Robert&Ari-- I had fun with that and ancestor worship. Use of a zombie spell and connecting control of the zombie to the ghost by the telepathic people gave walking sacred ancestors who constantly gave advice.
@zette-- Oh absolutely. They usually do. That's why we have 'potters' fields' where the poor are buried.
Robert&Ari-- With a process that if they burnt the shrine, they freed themselves for rebirth.
CiceroCat-- i have an idea to make the more rich people of a fire/sun worshiping society believe that fire (cremation) releases the soul--and that only poor people are buried
CiceroCat-- ah neat zette
@zette-- I knew someone would ask which emperor... hold on.
(Answer found later and not quite the quote I first saw... perhaps in the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? The Durrant Story of Civlization?) Woe is me. I think I'm turning into a god. ~~ Vespasian, Roman Emperor, d. 79 AD
karenth-- what if becoming a ghost was the norm. Death would just be leaving the room.
CiceroCat-- neat karenth
Cailin-- A dying person touches the abdomen of a pregnant woman, believing that his soul is transfered into the child. The child is then named after him and even has some of his memories and abilities later in life......
Robert&Ari-- One space culture had the body recycling into hydroponics as sacred and holographic memorials in a golden corridor.
karenth-- cailin....cool
Robert&Ari-- Ooh cool, Cailin!
CiceroCat-- i read a fanfic where dead people were recycled into food and this was what everyone ate
karenth-- the golden corridor, robert. i like that.
Jehane-- i thought about death being like a transcendence, moving on to another plane of existence, like a caterpillar emerging as a butterfly from a cocoon
Robert&Ari-- Heinlein - stranger in a strange land had that custom too, the Martians did.
@zette-- Kay -- it was one of the post Claudian Emperors, I think from The Year of the Five Emperors, or may be one of the early ones right afterwards... but I can't find my book right now!
Robert&Ari-- Caligula had that, I thought.
Kay-- s'okay, thanks for looking!
PuristLove-- i think death is probably one of those things that will cross even species boundaries as NONE of us know with certainty what happens... it would be fun to write about a culture that did know
Robert&Ari-- I know he ordered his horse deified.
Cailin-- (is frankly amazed Zette keeps ANY of her books straight as to the contents and current location of each)
Robert&Ari-- And in SF, you have cryogenic burial-revival and transferring mind of deceased to electronics to live again as AI.
karenth-- pl...they could be hounded by all the other species, demanding to *know*
@zette-- I really don't know where this particular book disappeared to, which means I was probably reading it and sat it down somewhere, and now it's buried under a ton of other books. Poor thing.
Kay-- ordering his horse's shit deified wouldn't surprise me about Caligula, Robert. Ari should have hung around and satirized HIM.
PuristLove-- and if what they found out wasn't good... what effect would that have on them?
karenth-- yeah....
mosylu-- isn't religion a way of saying we'll know what happens after death? so even if they publicized the fact that they knew, other cultures might dismiss it as their religion
Robert&Ari-- You find out after death that you're the personal property of advanced Lovecraftian entities that are ending the experiment. OR you were just chess pieces.
PuristLove-- mosylu, and that is why religion gets questioned eventually
PuristLove-- because we don't know
@zette-- Caligula actually started out as one of the better emperors, by the way. We mostly only see references to his later years where he'd gone quite insane.
mosylu-- it was the lead . . . all the lead
@zette-- It might have been Vespasion, Kay. Or not.
CiceroCat-- (wonders how big zette's reference library is)
Robert&Ari-- In one fantasy novel I kidnapped Varus's lost legions and threw them through a gate as ghosts, Varus led them out of that alien hell and got deified for it.
@zette-- Hey, we made it through another class!
karenth-- a good one, too!
CiceroCat-- in a fantasy novel of mine, i have this race/species/individuals whatever that won't die, unless the person they bond to dies
Robert&Ari-- We sure did and it was so stimulating! It's fantastic, Zette!
CiceroCat-- yup very informative
DragonDancer-- did you think we wouldn't? g--
@zette-- That sounds interesting CC!
Jehane-- thanks zette
PuristLove-- this was fun, I've got a lot of ideas to play with now
CiceroCat-- told ya i was bond crazy, all ;_)
DragonDancer-- this was wonderful, zette! Thanks muchly!
Kevin-- it was great!
Gayle-- thank you zette
karenth-- lthanks for another one, zette!
@zette-- Well, we have very many more of these classes to go through. I looks like about six sections per class, and about 50 sections...
Cailin-- Thanks, Zette
CiceroCat-- yup thanks again for this! i love these chats
Kay-- Yes, thanks Zette!
mosylu-- yes, thanks!
CiceroCat-- and we got thro 12?
PuristLove-- thank you
Robert&Ari-- Thank you, Zette! So stimulating! I transcribed this time too, will mail.
@zette-- I'm glad you all liked it!
@zette-- Actually, we made it through 13.
@zette-- But I rushed the last one, because I wanted death in with this group.
karenth-- lol
Robert&Ari-- Makes sense.
CiceroCat-- neat zette
@zette-- I've got it Robert. I won't need a copy.
DragonDancer-- went well with this set
@zette-- Any specific sort of questions?
karenth-- yes, it fit. just thought it was funny how you put it just now
Kay-- then I'll delete mine? copy i was transcribing i mean?
@zette-- Other than the names of Emperors I can't recall?
CiceroCat-- in medieval times--when were children considered adults?
@zette-- Yeah, you can. And thanks Kay.
CiceroCat-- i remembered too late to ask that one
Robert&Ari-- Yeah, rites of passage are something to consider.
@zette-- I believe that once they could do the work, they had the duties of adults -- but adults generally don't treat children as equals.
CiceroCat-- ah--cause i thought that they were apprenticed out when young--like 13?
CiceroCat-- if they were to apprentice out
PuristLove-- it would be interesting to have a race where as soon as a child can point they are given voting rights
CiceroCat-- lol
Gayle-- I think they were apprenticed out younger than that cc
CiceroCat-- that would be neat
PuristLove-- so even infants are placed before the decision and must point to yes or no
CiceroCat-- really, gayle?
karenth--
Robert&Ari-- That would work in my telepathic culture!
PuristLove-- I think pages were like 6 and squires could be as young as 9-10
@zette-- Maybe Titus or Domitian. Sounds like Titus to me... (Emperor that is.)
CiceroCat-- ah--thanx
Gayle-- I think so...I think it was like 9 or 10...especially if they came from a poor family
@zette-- Apprentice does not give adult rights. It's just labor to another adult.
PuristLove-- yes
CiceroCat-- ah
DragonDancer-- I'm sure some parents lied about ages to get the kid apprenticed earlier, to get money faster
PuristLove-- i think journeyman is when you start being treated as an adult
Robert&Ari-- Yeah, anyone with a trade had a rite of passage in finishing apprenticeship.
Gayle-- yeah...they got the grungy, gruntwork to do
@zette-- They are (if they are really lucky) taught the trade of that adult, but they have no rights at all.
@zette-- Apprenticeship didn't usually mean money to the adult either, though it did mean one less mouth to feed. Although that probably varied with cultures.
CiceroCat-- thnx---i was trying to consider when a certain group of my people would be considered adults
@zette-- Adult in this case should be parents.
CiceroCat-- how so zette--did the apprentice not live with family?
PuristLove-- bond-servant was where the parents got $$
DragonDancer-- oh, oops
@zette-- The apprentice usually lived with the 'master.'
CiceroCat-- ah
CiceroCat-- did the family have to pay the master to take on an apprentice?
@zette-- They provided everything for the apprentice. Sometimes well, often not.
Gayle-- and in the worst part of the house/work area
PuristLove-- cc i've read that to be so sometimes... almost like a dowry
@zette-- Yes, they took on the care, feeding, education, etc.
DragonDancer-- I assumed that if the child apprenticed out, they would learn and then (hopefully sooner) start sending money to parents. Nothing like that?
CiceroCat-- ok
karenth-- i'm gonna slip out. good night, everybody!
DragonDancer-- bye, karenth!
CiceroCat-- nite karenth
PuristLove-- nite karenth
@zette-- But again... you can play with that for any story you write. That's the point, really, to look at possibilties.
Jehane-- bye karen!
CiceroCat-- true--that's what i love about fantasy
Gayle-- night karen
@zette-- Bye Karen!
PuristLove-- I think most of what we've been saying is pretty european, aprenticeship probably worked very differently in other cultures...
Robert&Ari-- I think that's why and how you can play with fantasy without magic - the cultural differences.
@zette-- DD -- I don't know of any right off hand that worked that way. If the parents wanted money from the child, they would rent the child out to work places, rather than apprentice them.
CiceroCat-- true PL
DragonDancer-- ok. thank you!
Gayle-- or sell the child outright
@zette-- Very true, PL.
@zette-- Oh yes, selling the child is not unheard of in many cultures.
mosylu-- wouldn't that be more for the lower classes tho?
CiceroCat-- not if you don't want it to be, mo
@zette-- But also remember that most people don't want to buy a young child. They're a lot of work.
PuristLove-- sold into prostitution was common
@zette-- Mosy -- upper classes generally did not apprentice their children. They had businesses of their own, and passed the work to them.
CiceroCat-- maybe the rich sell off extra children so they can't compete for inheritance
PuristLove-- and still is in some parts of the world
mosylu-- I can more easily see rich people selling kids off into marriage rather than prostitution/apprenticeship
@zette-- If they had many children, they often gave them different aspects of the business -- one traveling to buy wool, one working with weavers, one selling, etc.
CiceroCat-- brb, i need some food
mosylu-- altho if prostitution is a highly respected business, even possibly sacred, it might be different

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