Writer's Think Tank #11 -- 04/12/02

<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages, bathroom, etc.
<CiceroCat> hi all man, allergies or sinuses are being evil today for me
<Joel_A> hey, lucas
<Kaelle> Bless you, BG
<CiceroCat> ditto, bg?? lol
<Nathan> Hi CiceroCat
<Robert> I have my coffee, my smokes and my cat in my lap. I'm ready to go.
<Sarah> (running for juice)
<BarGnat> thx. got a code in the gnose still
<@SLViehl> (handing around the box of tissues)
<CiceroCat> lol
<BarGnat> grabs a tissue... thx, Sheila
<CiceroCat> cute picture, shiela
<@SLViehl> You're welcome, poor thing.
<Kaelle> Got you beat. I threw out my back Thurs morning. Guess how? I took off my coat when I got to work and that's all she wrote.
<Joel_A> thanks, sheila (wipes his glasses)
<@SLViehl> Ouch, Kae (getting out the traction rig)
<CiceroCat> poor kaelle that'd suck
<BarGnat> ewww, Kaelle! Zen hugs
<Robert> Poor BG
<@SLViehl> Am I running a think tank or an inpatient ward?
<BarGnat> LOL
<Joel_A> the latter
<Kaelle> Thank you!
<Anne_Marble> Inpatient ward
<Nathan> I got a blister on my heel (While we're talking about colds, and broken backs)
<Kaelle> Impatient, me
<@SLViehl> We'll just have to pamper all you poor sick things.
<Robert> Inpatient ward, Sheila. (sigh) I threw my back too but it was worth it. Commiseration, Kaelle!
<Nathan> lol Sheila
<BarGnat> (G)
<Danielle> a cat scratched me yesterday
<Joel_A> my left knee hurts
<@SLViehl> Welcome, DragonDancer
<CiceroCat>
<Lucas> Or an impatient ward...
<BarGnat> got a chigger in my navel when I was nine
<@SLViehl> lol Lucas
<DragonDancer> hello!
<Kaelle> rofl
<Nathan> Hi Dragon Dancer
<Danielle> hi DD
<Kaelle> Hi DD
<BarGnat> Hi, DD
<DragonDancer> (waves to everyone)
<CiceroCat> hi DD
<Anne_Marble> I have papercuts. And I hurt my hand slightly on the punching bag in the sporting good store. (I want a punching bag.)
<Nathan> {Waves back}
<BklynWriter> hi everyone!!!!!
<@SLViehl> Deb, is that you????
<Anne_Marble> I know I shouldn't take this figure out of its package. But heck, it's only a Scorpion King figure.
<Nathan> Hi Bkylnwriter
<Joel_A> my body's sore from working out several days. do you provide massages, sheila?
<@SLViehl> Yay, Deb's back!
<Kaelle> Hi Deb
<Danielle> hi BklynWriter
<Robert> Purr, hi Deb!
<Joel_A> deb = bklynwriter. Hi!
<Kaelle> Sheila? How're you doing?
<BklynWriter> missed u guys!!! really!!
<BarGnat> Deb = bklynwriter?
<@SLViehl> Bklynwriter (Deb) is an alumni
<CiceroCat> hi bklyn
<@SLViehl> (hugging Deb) Missed you, girl
<CiceroCat> neat!
<BarGnat> Hi, Deb
<Joel_A> really? you never said that, bklynwriter!
<Lucas> Hmm, I hate to break the pattern but I am not currently suffering from any debilitating injuries.
<Anon_61> Hello
<Joel_A> well, you have youth, lucas
<Kaelle> lol. That's good to know, Lucas.
<CiceroCat> hi anon
<Nathan> Hi Anon_61
<@SLViehl> As for me, Kae, I have gone an entire week without stitches, crutches, cane, etc. I am disgustingly healthy
<BklynWriter> awww shucks! (blushing) you make a gal feel good
<Kaelle> Keep that going, Sheila!
<Danielle> hi Fredrick
<Kaelle> Hi Fredrick
<DragonDancer> stay healthy, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> We were about to send a posse after you, Deb.
<Lucas> Sure Joel, age challenged, or whatever they call it these days...
<Fredrick> Is my name showing up?
<DragonDancer> now it is
<Fredrick> There we go
<@SLViehl> Hi Fredrick
<Sarah> Hey Deb!
<Fredrick> Hello
<Joel_A> LOL, lucas
<Robert> Yayy Sheila! A week without injuries, that's impressive!
<@SLViehl> Wow, full house tonight, folks. Let me get the new class board screen up here
<Joel_A> got my question(s) ready.
Nathan Mom sent the package to you today
<@SLViehl> If you don't know how the think tank works, the schemativ is on the board. Any questions about how it works before I go to the roster?
<Lucas> Handy little briefing screen.
<CiceroCat> hi fred
>Nathan< Great Nathan, tell her I said thanks!
<Fredrick> Hello, CC
<@SLViehl> I figure a screen is better than me repeating myself every session
<Joel_A> hmmm. there has to be a better term than "minors." I think of little children (under the age of 7)
Nathan Actually I was the one that put it in the mailbox. Okay
<CiceroCat>
<CiceroCat> lol
<Robert> Age-oppressed sentients.
<Joel_A> LOL
<Kaelle> lol Robert
<CiceroCat> and i neverliked what that meant for adults--majors?
<DragonDancer> Minor is my brother's gerbil. He can't spell "Miner"
<@SLViehl> One more thing -- I'm going to put everyone's name up on the question roster -- if you don't have a question for the group, when we get to you, just say "pass"
<CiceroCat> i can't call myself a "major"
<Lucas> That's true, especially since I seem to recall that you can't copy & paste to this room?
<Danielle> lol DD
>Nathan< Then you deserve the hug, thanks, Nathan
<Joel_A> LOL, DD, CC
<CiceroCat> lol dd
<Nathan> What are you, when you are nolonger a minor...a major?
<Lucas> A mediocre.
<DragonDancer> majorette?
<CiceroCat>
<Joel_A> no, nathan. you're tossed out of the house
<@SLViehl> You're generally in debt, Nathan. lol
<CiceroCat> lol
<Kaelle> LOL Sheila
<Joel_A> credit cards!
<Fredrick> a median
<Nathan> Oh I'm already in debt
<Nathan> just not the type that adults are
<Robert> Write fast and well, Nathan...
<Nathan> I try...
<Joel_A> (mouthing Britney Spears) "I'm not a girl but not yet a woman..."
<DragonDancer> LOL, Joel!
<Kaelle> lol
<Kaelle> ouch, laughing hurts.
<Sarah> ah, student debt... (thanks god once again for free healthcare or she'd be in REAL trouble)
<Joel_A> well, you're in the inpatient ward, kae
<Kaelle> True, Joel
<Joel_A> free healthcare? where, sarah? in the U.S.?
<Nathan> magazines, library fines...that kinda thing
<Sarah> Canada
<Joel_A> @kae
<@SLViehl> Okay, folks, let's get this show on the road. Sarah, do you have a question for the group tonight?
<Sarah> pass
<@SLViehl> Kae, you're up then. Got a question for us?
<Kaelle> pass. Sorry
<CiceroCat> r we going for three ina row
<@SLViehl> Robert, my man, I know you've got one for us. Nathan, you'll be after Robert
<Nathan> Okay
<@SLViehl> And btw, no one has to ask a question. You can just lurk, or help others. No pressure
<Robert> Oh boy. It's me... okay. Today, I came up with the method for how the good guys will blow up the evil castle Karactis at the end of the book or the end of the series.
<BklynWriter> <--queen of lurkdom
<Robert> I didn't really put in a necessary bit of infodump to set up for it. When should I start scattering the bits in the rewrite? Figure 21 chapters.
<Robert> I'm in the middle of chapter 16, is that too late in the book to start setting up for the final solution?
<BklynWriter> does your proposed ending signficantly change previous events in the book?
<Robert> btw, readers who have read my unpublished other books the species appeared in would know that was possible from the point they learn Karactis's species.
<CiceroCat> i'd put in the first bit in the first chapter, try to scatter it in pieces of conversation, or thoughts... not just out of hte blue
<Anne_Marble> I think that might be fine, as long as it sounds logical coming from that place in the book. Would it be more logical to drop hints earlier?
<Danielle> If it's earlier, it's more sneaky, people may forget
<CiceroCat> it doesn'thave to be any more than a single line in the first chapter, btw, if you wanted ti try it that way
<@SLViehl> It's never too late to start setting up, I think, but it's best to be consistent, Robert
<Robert> Not particularly. Karactis is a silicate entity of a species symbiotic with elves, it has a couple of forms and if it mates, it dies and scatters thousands of offspring which might not be evil.
<CiceroCat> if it's too close to the end, people may think it's a convenience thingy
<@SLViehl> You don't have to give away much in the beginning of the book, but you do need to sprinkle some clues -- enough to capture the reader's interest
<Danielle> would the hints be great whopping arrows or something that fits happily earlier as a throwaway line?
<Robert> It's consistent with its species, I knew it all along and *realizedI it today. Yeah.
<@SLViehl> I agree with CC, too
<Robert> Throwaway "it dies when it mates." Solution, someone shapeshifts to its mate and gives their life to end Karactis's life.
<Danielle> like it a lot!!
<@SLViehl> What I do is I provide the hints but I distract the reader with something else, so the revelation is a big bang at the end, but they could have seen it -- had I not dazzled them
<Danielle> does reader know Karactis is evil early on?
<CiceroCat> well, you'll have to include some bits about that, I think earlier... unless the whole thign hinges on a secret about hte mating connection to dying....
<Robert> Yes. They know Karactis is eavil from the first few chapters.
<@SLViehl> That doesn
<Lucas> If the species you're working with can be compelled to mate, that would probably work fine.
<CiceroCat> but i'd definitely point out that shape shifting is possible early on
<@SLViehl> Try again -- that's no a throw-away to me. I'd work in some hints of it earlier
<CiceroCat> btw, it is an interesting idea very interesting
<Robert> Uh, proximity to another of its kind is the greatest attractant.
<Fredrick> Why is Karactis evil?
<CiceroCat> some things, if it's a good surprise twist, they'll think -- oh god, i should have known that in retrospect
<CiceroCat> they'll see the pathway of clues then
<Robert> It chose to be. It's not humanoid and I don't think it's an it.
<@SLViehl> A villain that chooses to be architecture. I love it.
<@SLViehl> evil architecture, I mean.
<CiceroCat> i never seen it done before
<Robert> Karactis is a symbiotic entity that spent its youth with evil Tuatha, it wholeheartedly took up their side of a mystical eternal war of good and evil, it got more powerful than its assorted dark lords and thought "Hey, why shouldn't I be the one?
<@SLViehl> me either, CC
<Danielle> unless you disguise it well, readers will be looking for hints of how to destroy an evil character
<@SLViehl> But back to the hints -- you need to be consistent to avoid the deus ex machina thing, Robert.
<Anne_Marble> And add red herrings.
<Robert> Its life cycle is motile crystalline "space whale" or "seedship" or various pretty terms, sessile castlelike and conforms its structure to culture of symbiotic inhabitants.
<Danielle> it may appear a red herring, say if the characters then go looking for another one like it to mate with it and this fails
<Robert> Love is greater than evil.
<Anne_Marble> For example, someone picks up a copy of "How to Destroy Evil Characters." ;->
<@SLViehl> Set it up with at least some clues for the readers. Make them ask the questions, like -- Why are these things such loners?
<Robert> Danielle, that's a trilogy plot.
<Danielle> think big!!
<Robert> But I think the biggest hint is that Karactis should be female, since it's going to essentially be raped to death.
<BarGnat> ahhhh
<CiceroCat> ah
<Anne_Marble> Praying mantis in reverse.
<Lucas> If these creatures even have sexes in the male/female setup. I guess you would know that, though.
<Robert> The nicer ones tended to seem to gender along humanoid genders but their mating, which happened in another book was - a little more like paramecia exchanging material.
<@SLViehl> Just one comment on that, which is borderlining our PG-13 rule -- women aren't the only ones who get raped.
<Robert> It's possible that it's gender of choice for them.
<CiceroCat> or same with ants--males die after uhm procreation
<Joel_A> sheila, I have to leave momentarily. When it's my turn and I'm not back, could you put me at the end?
<@SLViehl> And time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<@SLViehl> Sure Joel
<Robert> That's the other thing. Um, if he succeeds it's a fertile mating so I might show a little more of their crystalline physiology in the process.
<Joel_A> thanks. BRB.
<CiceroCat> if they die, robert--is it after they give birth?
<BarGnat> Or give birth in their death throes, as cockroaches do?
<@SLViehl> I like the twist, Robert, but I'd like to see you give your reader some feel for it early on -- without giving away the twist.
<Robert> They die in the process and every shattered little bit of them is a new organism till it accretes enough smallers to get motile.
<CiceroCat> neat bg
<CiceroCat> cool robert
<Robert> The mating is this incredible song followed by explosion, big explosion usually in outer space.
<@SLViehl> Love the concept, really original, Robert
<Robert> I droped one hint already: "When Karactis flies, we must have dragons to fight it."
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for some great suggestions -- Nathan, you're up, Anne, you're after Nathan
<Robert> If it flies it's motile and it's vulnerable - they don't mate while sessile, only while motile.
<Nathan> Here's the windup, and the pitch...
<Nathan> What are my chances of ever being published in a 'continuity world' like Star Wars or Star Trek, or other series
<Nathan> ?
<@SLViehl> Presently or in the future?
<Nathan> At all
<@SLViehl> At present, Star Trek and Star Wars are invitational series. You have to be asked to write books in those universes.
<Cailin> (comes in late, panting... sits down and shuts up)
<@SLViehl> So, unless you make contact with the editors in charge of issuing those invitations, virtually no chance.
<Nathan> Okay
<@SLViehl> However -- big however!
<CiceroCat> hi cailin
<@SLViehl> Things change in publishing. What is invitational today may be open submission tomorrow.
<Nathan> Ping?
<Sarah> And there's a pretty big reader demand for media tie-ins.
<@SLViehl> If you're interested in writing a book for one of these series, send a query letter for guidelines to the publisher periodically.
<Robert> I was going to say too, that the more successful your other books are, the more likely you'll get invited.
<Nathan> Definitly
<Nathan> query letter?
<Fredrick> This is just opinion, but I think it's better to write in your own worlds. That way you can have full control.
<Anne_Marble> Sometimes Star Trek and Star Wars put out anthologies, even with stories by new writers. Can that help your chances?
<@SLViehl> That's a letter where you request submission guidelines on the series you're interested in, Nathan.
<Nathan> Not until I'm 18
<Nathan> ohhh...okay
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, you should read about what happened to Margaret Bonnano's story (I think that's the author). Writers have even less flexibility in Star Trek fiction nowadays.
<Robert> Trek, I wouldn't want to try to write one without reading all the books that are out there. Heck of a reading list!
<Fredrick> Yeah, you can't have Kirk be chastate
<CiceroCat> or having watched all the episodes
<Nathan> The reason I ask is because I see a lot of untold stories in the SW world
<@SLViehl> Media tie-in authors must be very well versed on the series universe.
<CiceroCat> you have know everything about the movie/tv show
<Anne_Marble> She wrote one of the first long Star Trek novels, and gave a former guest start a big part. It sounded great. But they rewrote most of the book. :-<
<Nathan> That would be me and SW
<Robert> Some of those may be contradicted by other SW novels that have been done.
<CiceroCat> ah anne
<Anne_Marble> Anyone here know more about the Bonnano case than I do? I might have forgotten something.
<Robert> I have one Trek novel idea that doesn't totally hinge on its being Trek, so it's back burner till I get around to doing SF. It mainly needs a starship exploring that among other things has a cat on board.
<Nathan> I've noticed that in Star Trek that the timeline varies...one of few reasons I wouldn't want to write a ST book
<Anne_Marble> Wow, sounds like Andre Norton.
<@SLViehl> Media tie-ins represent 50% (or more) of the science fiction titles currently being released by publishers, and the big series like ST and SW have global distribution.
<CiceroCat>
<@SLViehl> So while it's not for everyone, writing in the SW or ST universe can be very lucrative.
<DragonDancer> 50%?? wow, I didn't realize it was that much...
<Nathan> neither did I
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nathan?
<Anne_Marble> But I think SW stopped paying authors royalities, didn't they?
<Fredrick> A lot of big name writers like Greg Bear and Vonda McIntyre have done them.
<Kaelle> As a reader, I have often grumped about my favorite authors writing media tie-ins when I want new stuff from them. Now.
<Anne_Marble> Media authors often get scr*wed.
<Fredrick> But I think writing in your own world affords a lot more freedom in the end. I don't think I could write media tie-in and feel happy as a writer.
<@SLViehl> I think you should write the stories you like, Nathan, whether they be media tie-ins, or not. Follow your muse.
<Robert> We're different, Fredrick. I could, because I'm prolific and I also have my words and I also like some media tie-ins. It would have to be a show or movie I liked, that's all.
<Robert> worlds, meant to say I also have my worlds.
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for your views on the media tie-in market. Anne, you're up, BarGnat, you're after Anne.
<Anne_Marble> Can anyone recommend good resources for fantasy writers about the practical nitty-gritty things? Everything from costumes to climate to food to horses. Also, what should be served in my prison of mages? (They have a farm.) My characters can't eat trenchers every night. :->
<Nathan> Can you please explain Muse better than ny dictonary does...sometimes I don't comprehend it (The dictionary)
<Anne_Marble> None of us comprehend it.
<Sarah> Ooh, there was a writers digest guide to fantasy....
<Robert> Anne - I'd give them a local invented grain, something dark and gritty they mill themselves at the prison. But strongly flavored like rye.
<Nathan> Isn't it sad?
<@SLViehl> Muse is what inspires you. What leads you to write stories, Nathan.
<Fredrick> Gruel or porridge?
<Anne_Marble> I have that book, but I thought it sucked.
<Nathan> Okay...thanks
<Danielle> academic libraries, if you have any access, have lots of stuff on esoteric subjects
<CiceroCat> i think i have it-- that compedium?
<Robert> You can make it odd colored, like reddish or yellow.
<CiceroCat> spealling? I really recommend it--but it's not terribly specific
<Fredrick> Angela's Ashes
<Danielle> ugly vegetables
<Lucas> There are lots of good books on the middle ages, (even some specifically for writers) if that is the era you're modeling your fantasy world after.
<@SLViehl> Anne, there's some excellent medieval studies that take a look at all aspects of life in that period -- would they be helpful, given your world set up?
<CiceroCat> also what age is this set in, anne?
<Anne_Marble> Oh, and they have some staff members who do the cooking, farming, etc.
<Fredrick> Has a lot of good stuff
<Nathan> Thanks all...
<@SLViehl> Lucas and I are mind-melding tonight.
<CiceroCat> i know writers digest has a good book (i only heard, not read it) about daily life in medieval times
<Anne_Marble> I still have to pick an age.
<Fredrick> The Renaissance?
<Anne_Marble> I guess it's still Medieval. later books in that world might be Renaissance.
<@SLViehl> I'd also look at how Civil War and other prisons were run -- they could be incredibly brutal places.
<CiceroCat> ah
<Danielle> depends what you want the food to do - remind Gorok of what he's missing?
<Fredrick> Andersonville
<Danielle> make him homesick
<Robert> Or creatively mix them, Anne. I'm thinking "maize to aztecs, rice to Asians" staple and then a few original delicacies. Local. Fish, game, veggies, honey and possibly a sugar producing vegetable. Or tree, you could give them a sweet sap tree or maples.
<Anne_Marble> This prison is weird. The food might be good (unless the farms fail). Mages are persnickety and an important source of labor.
<BklynWriter> watch an episode of Oz ... that will give some awful grim insight into prison life
<Danielle> remember food can be mood-altering, make you more or less energetic
<Fredrick> Could they make the food magically better?
<@SLViehl> From the way you've described the story, I've always thought Germania, or the goths, post-fall of the Roman Empire
<Anne_Marble> That might cost too much power, Fredrick.
<Lucas> The conditions in your prison could depend on how expendable the prisoners are. If the prison work force is only slowly replaced by new prisoners, then they will be treated better than if a new supply of prisoners was constantly available.
<BarGnat> Anne, next time eadfrith shows up in chat, ask him... that's his area of specialty
<Fredrick> Then have it rare maybe, like spices
<Anne_Marble> I've thought of Gorok as being viking-like, but someone else said he'd be a good Celt because he's kind to animals.
<@SLViehl> One thing I've also noticed about most prisons is, every administration tries to put the bulk of the work to maintain it on the prisoners.
<Robert> Maybe one of the artifacts wasn't turned in, because it magically produces spices and condiments and that's passed around by prisoners on cook detail. Or used by one to keep himself on cook detail!
<Fredrick> The pilgrims salted meat heavily to preserve it.
<@SLViehl> no matter what the era -- so maybe their food is what they grow, preserve, etc.
<Anne_Marble> I like the idea about the food reminding him of his life. Sorry, responding late.
<Robert> Poultry. Whatever the local version of poultry, ducks or chickens kept for food and eggs.
<Danielle> or maybe a good contrast - he's a meat eater, and they're vegetarians
<Fredrick> Bacon and pork chops?
<Danielle> or vice versa
<@SLViehl> grain-based diet for a meat eater would be a real torture
<BarGnat> Prisoners get the grain after the weevils are in it... any meat they get is after it's gone "off"
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, that could be interesting if he comes back with a deer he's killed.
<Fredrick> Did they have oatmeal in the Middle Ages?
<CiceroCat> cool ideas
<@SLViehl> Maybe they're all on porridge and he tosses a rabbit in the pot one night....
<CiceroCat> i'd think so--wouldn't they?
<Danielle> would Wulf make him relive the hunt from the deer's perspective
<Robert> Most meat eaters do get grains but going corn to rice for the bulk staple would still be a shock.
<Lucas> Of course some people like "off" meat. Does anyone recall the tradition of "high" meat in some parts of the world?
<@SLViehl> I bet he would, Danielle. Wulf's that kind of mage
<Anne_Marble> Oh, what was the weird fish dish the Romans had? They are on an island.
<Robert> Yes, they did have oatmeal and made versions with other things - like gruel basically.
<Fredrick> Ugh, gruel. Rhymes with cruel.
<Robert> Stews are also common.
<@SLViehl> Meat was often heavily spiced to cover up the smell of taint, if I recall
<Danielle> the food habits of an unfamiliar culture are always good dramatic fodder (excuse the pun)
<Robert> That's done to this day at some homeless shelters.
<BarGnat> yes... led to the discovery of American, basically, IIRC
<@SLViehl> It was considered bad manners to "smell the meat on the fork" at some point in history
<Anne_Marble> ooooh, I have an idea. My teacher once knew a Chinese couple who buried a roast until it went bad. They preferred it that way.
<Katherine> Yes. That's one of the reasons why cuisines from warm climates tend to be spicy.
<Fredrick> General Tso Chicken--this is making me hungry
<Anne_Marble> He is in the South......
<@SLViehl> Meat was also "hung" for several days to several weeks, to allow the natural process of decay to tenderize the meat
<Lucas> Yes, that's what I was thinking about Shiela.
<Danielle> be an interesting twist if the warrior was the vegetarian one
<BarGnat> (G)
<Robert> Right - so even customs with the meat might have that effect if he was used to fresh meat and Wulf's people hang thiers.
<Katherine> Even now, the best steaks are dry aged.
<Fredrick> What about horse meat?
<@SLViehl> Or pickled -- lots of things were pickled in brine, saltpeter (I'm not touching that) juniper, wine, etc.
<Anne_Marble> Yes, I'd love to make him a vegetarian. Maybe all rangers are vegetarians.
<@SLViehl> Hiya Katherine, welcome!
<CiceroCat> hi katherine
<Anne_Marble> (Trying to imagine Aragorn not eating meat...)
<Nathan> Hi Katherine
<Fredrick> Die hard vegan?
<Anne_Marble> Hello
<CiceroCat> lol anne
<Danielle> for spiritual or health reasons or just convenience
<Robert> But you already had him a hunter, Anne. Hunters usually eat meat.
<@SLViehl> And Jim, hi there!
<Nathan> It's real simple anne
<CiceroCat> well in medieval times--they didn't get to eat much meat did they?
<Katherine> (Trying to quietly take a seat in the back. But can't resist speaking up.)
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, Iguess he shold hunt. But it would be so fun.
<CiceroCat> hello jim too
<Nathan> Hi im
<Anne_Marble> Howdy @ Jim
<Nathan> im=jim
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> The poor usually had bacon and bread, CC, in the British Isles.
<Danielle> if your environment allows, make him a hunter of vegetation!
<Fredrick> What about rats? It's gross, but necessary during hard times.
<Kaelle> Maybe ask zette what her personal library has that she might recommend to you, Anne
<Robert> He won't have that woodcraft without hunting - but the difference between aged meat and what's edible and not may vary a lot! Like the "no pork" cultures.
<Nathan> Me fingers is dead...
<CiceroCat> ah sheila
<Anne_Marble> Say hello to my Scorpion King action figure.:)
<Anne_Marble> Maybe he eats only fresh meat and hates the "aged to perfection" stuff.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe he hates seafood.
<DragonDancer> if they had a stew they wouldn't be able to tell what meat was in it...
<Nathan> What's Scorpion kng and why are you bragging about it?
<Robert> That's what I was thinking, Anne. And seafood could be taboo entirely.
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all you medieval gourmands, interesting ideas. BarGnat, you're up, Danielle, you're after BarGnat.
<@Jim> Hi everyone.
<BarGnat> ah-choooo! I'll pass, please.
<Katherine> Maybe he can't stand cooked meat?
<DragonDancer> bless you
<@SLViehl> Danielle, have you got a question for the group tonight?
<Anne_Marble> He was one of the characters from The Mummy movies. He's wearing leather breeches and a breechloth.
<Danielle> sorry, I'ma pass too tonight
<CiceroCat> is he gonna have his own movie too?
<Lucas> http://www.godecookery.com
<Anne_Marble> Yeah
<CiceroCat> ah
<@SLViehl> Joel, are you back, or still AWOL?
<Nathan> Oh...I thought it was a movie
<Nathan> that is coming out soon
<Lucas> A medieval food website.
<Anne_Marble> It is.
<CiceroCat> if i see any good links, i'll pass it on to ya (about medieval food and life and stuff)
<Danielle> great photos of a cooked cockatrice
<Anne_Marble> Cool, thanks!
<Nathan> With soome dude with the name of a mineral staring in it
<@SLViehl> Joel is away from his terminal, so he asked to be put to the end of the list. Lucas, that means you're up, and CC is after you.
<Fredrick> re: The Scorpion King: Kelly Hu (the priestess) is very beautiful
<Robert> Think of things to leave out, like corn and tomatoes from the New World, but put some familiar stuff.
<CiceroCat> Kelly= man?
<Lucas> Right, I'll get my stuff.
<CiceroCat> oh priestESS
<CiceroCat> lol
<Fredrick> Woman
<CiceroCat> i just saw Scorpion Kingthen the name lol
<Anne_Marble> She has an action figure, too.
<CiceroCat> neat
<Nathan> lol
<Joel_A> back. and I have to go. night, y'all!
<@SLViehl> night Joel
<Danielle> night Joel!
<BarGnat> night
<Kaelle> bye Joel
<Nathan> Bye Joel
<DragonDancer> bye, Joel!
<Robert> Night, Joel!
<Nathan> Have a good evening
<CiceroCat> night joel
<Lucas> Since I was asked to re-do the topic I introduced last friday, I'll just start posting stuff. It could take a while, so everyone feel free to speculate wildly as I post.
<@JimMills> Night Joel !
<CiceroCat> k
<Fredrick> Good night
<Anne_Marble> Bight joel
<Danielle> is that an order?
<@JimMills> Bight??
<Lucas> Good night Joel.
<Joel_A> <waves> night. keep on writing!
<Anne_Marble> ?:?? Bight?
<Lucas> In our last episode I introduced a country that had four classes: Guards, Lords, Artisans, and Farmers. (These are based on Plato's metallic analogies for class differences, so the different classes are Gold, Silver, Copper, and Bronze, respectively.)
<Lucas> The Lords consider themselves to be superior to the common people they rule, but believe that the Guards are superior to them because the Guards are willing to die in their defense.
<Lucas> The Guards serve the lords, but their first duty is to uphold the Articles of Confederation that were written when the original thirteen baronies were bound together into a single country.
<Lucas> The Guards are virtually their own community within the larger whole. They are ascetics who eschew monetary gain. They can keep their numbers up by having children or taking in those outsiders they deem worthy.
<Lucas> The Guards are rigorously self-policed and tested, to be sure they are all up to the level. They are the military and police of the nation. Since the Lords own most of the land and control the treasuries, they pay for the Guard's upkeep.
<Lucas> The Lords are the only ones who can propose laws, but the Guard corps has to sign on the dotted line, so to speak, before a law can become official.
<Lucas> The Guards study tactics, but only the Lords are allowed to study strategy (or declare war), so in a major military action the Lords serve as the Generals.
<Lucas> They are an island nation. The island is separated from the main land, surrounded by a stretch of becalmed water.
<Lucas> Sometimes the calm lifts enough for sailing ships to reach the island, and it was one of those years when the nation's founders colonized it and fought off the Empire's forces until the winds vanished and the island was cut off again.
<Lucas> The last two times the calm lifted, unlike all the other times since the nation's founding, no ships arrived from the mainland empire to attack them.
<Lucas> Answers to questions I didn't get to answer last time:
<Lucas> Danielle - Yes, the Guards can instigate searches and arrest whoever they darn well want to, but likewise the Lord of a Barony can pardon anyone in his Barony.
<Lucas> Robert - If the men of bronze and copper believe they are being oppressed by the Lords and Guards... The Judges ARE Lords (or appointed by them) so they wouldn't be any help.
<Lucas> Contacting un-corrupted Guards and alerting them to the situation would be the only way to set things right.
<Lucas> CiceroCat - Yes, a Lord could hire men and equip them with weapons and use them instead of the national Guards, but normal men would want to be paid for their services and would, most likely, never be as well trained as the Guards.
<Lucas> The Guards tend to deal with this situation by removing their services from anyone who even hints at hiring more than a handful of private soldiers.
<Lucas> The absence of the Guard from a Barony tends to do two things rather quickly:
<Katherine> The line between strategy and tactics is actually pretty fuzzy. Unless no Guards have command responsibility, they'd have to study strategy.
<Lucas> 1. It attracts all the cut-throats and thieves from all the thirteen Baronies of the nation, 2. The influx of criminals causes most of the honest people to sneak across the borders and set up residence in neighboring Baronies.
<Lucas> The right of Migration is one guranteed in the Articles, and the Guards will enforce this in a Barony even if they have withdrawn their services in all other ways.
<@SLViehl> So no Guards, no safety
<Lucas> That's all the stuff I have to paste in.
<Katherine> Given a long period of peace, how do the Guards maintain their standards.
<Nathan> Good...now I'll read it...
<CiceroCat> ah---do Guards get paid a stipend by their government?
<Katherine> The Japanese samurai got pretty corrupt and decadent during the Pax Tokugawa.
<Lucas> Katherine, that's true. But with no Lords to supply them and co-ordinate them, they wouldn't get far.
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, think of the Dragonriders after the thread hadn't fallen for hundreds of years. They stopped doing the Right Thing.
<Robert> Are the commoners - the non Lords, non Guards, penalized for a) literacy or b) warrior trainign and weapons?
<CiceroCat> so it's--somewhat of a symbiotic relationship i guess
<CiceroCat> ?
<Lucas> I'll know in a minute Robert...
<@SLViehl> The Lords have only title, and ability to plan strategy, to maintain the division between them and the Guards.
<Fredrick> What about Golem guards made out of clay?
<@SLViehl> If I was in charge of the Guards, and I was ambitious, I'd want to own me a few Lords.
<BarGnat> Is it significant to the plot that there have been no attacks during the last two (?) calm-weather periods?
<Katherine> Also, I would expect the Lords to actually be pretty lousy strategists, due to their lack of hands-on combat experience.
<@SLViehl> People probably begin to question whether they really need the Guards, given the cut-off situation
<Robert> How difficult is it for a commoner to rise to ranks of Lords or Guards?
<Lucas> Yes. The calm period is significant, because it encourages them to start feeling secure enough for the Lords to beging serious infighting.
<DragonDancer> are the islanders going to wonder why there were no attacks? I know I would
<BarGnat> ahhh. okay
<Katherine> Similarly, I'd expect Guards to learn lots of strategy under fire.
<CiceroCat> what kinda trade would they have with others, i wonder?
<CiceroCat> outside their nation?
<@SLViehl> The Guards would have to maintain strict discipline in order to be prepared - generation to generation, whether it was necessary or not.
<Robert> Their strategies would be antiquated and not based on whatever different weaponry and style their new foes have.
<Katherine> See my question above, Sheila. Maintaining discipline without a threat is hard.
<@SLViehl> No offense to any Brits here, but this sounds an awful lot like Cornwallis' army
<Lucas> Yes Robert, that's one of their big problems. They don't advance their war technology and strategy like their foes do.
<@SLViehl> True, Katherine
<BarGnat> But, like the Pern dragonriders, they would lose overall respect from both Lords and populace because of their "unnecessary" existence
<Robert> I would also lay odds the commoners outnumber Lords and Guards
<Anne_Marble> Those "parasites."
<Lucas> That's true enough, Robert. They do.
<Danielle> will there be an attack from over the water during the story?
<BarGnat> Right, Anne. Just couldn't think of how to say it
<Robert> A number of odd Asian martial arts developed from peasants forbidden swords developing arts based on farm equipment.
<CiceroCat> they'd basically have reenactments--might not be prepared for real warfare
<Anne_Marble> Imagine someone riding into battle today on, say, Lippanzer stallions.
<Nathan> Hi James
<Katherine> Numbers aren't relevant if the Guards and Lords have a significant technology advantage.
<CiceroCat> hi james
<@SLViehl> Hey James!
<Anne_Marble> howdy James
<Kaelle> Hey James
<James> Hi All -- sorry I'm late -- too stupid to remember daylight savings just ended in the States...
<Robert> That technology advantage can shift as soon as a few revolutionaries capture equpiment.
<Danielle> would the Lords insist on using outmoded strategies then?
<Lucas> But, a significant number of the commoners are fed and housed in the equivalent of subsidized housing and are trucked to their work places every day. This makes a large number (about a third) of the people feel very dependent on the Lords.
<Nathan> lol James
<DragonDancer> we're a little behind here, James (grin)
<Danielle> I missed a whole class on Tuesday for the same reason!
<James> Committee for creating One World Time forms at the left...
<Katherine> Robert: Would need a big shift. Consider Brits vs. Zulus in Africa, or Spaniards vs. Aztecs in Central America.
<Robert> That dependence might or might not build loyalty, it would depend a lot on how they were treated.
<Fredrick> Do the Lords have a draft or some sort of conscription?
<CiceroCat>
<Nathan> lol
<CiceroCat> also, if hte Guards hold similiar power to as they did in the past, this might be a more conservatively run nation
<@SLViehl> Given the culture, I'd say you'd need some major caste reinforcements to keep the ranks as they are -- commoner, Guard, and Lord. Something that maintains those lines.
<Lucas> Yes Danielle - The mainland empire, during the time they've been out of contact, has developed technology far advanced from the islanders, and they're coming.
<Anne_Marble> And sometimes, even "backwards" fighters win. Remember Italy versus the Ethiopians.
<@SLViehl> Other than war
<CiceroCat> that'd effect lots of things, like technology and society views
<Danielle> cool Lucas!
<Danielle> maybe now the bronze and copper classes might drive innovation
<@SLViehl> I'm thinking of the old practice of making the first son the heir, the second son went into the Army, and the third went to the church (second and third may be reversed, not my history)
<Anne_Marble> And no one expected Japan to defeat the Russians around the turn of the century.
<Danielle> Lords and Guards have too much invested in status quo
<@SLViehl> What if you had the first son be a Lord, the second a Guard, and any others would be overseers handling the commoners?
<Robert> Base caste on birth order?
<Lucas> Danielle, it is going to be like a collection of bronze age city states trying to fight off a civilization in the dawn of its steam age. Vast gulf.
<@SLViehl> That's one way -- or something similar
<CiceroCat> not merit of strength or uhm aptitude?
<CiceroCat> btw, can't remember if it was mentioned--Guard equal all men?
<@SLViehl> I'm just quoting from British history -- common practice, in feudal times, with large families
<Sarah> You could enforce that further by having stylized tattoing/scarring for each caste really early in life..
<Kaelle> Any jockeying for position, like bumping off the older brothers?
<Lucas> No! The Guard is one of the VERY few positions that females can fulfill.
<Katherine> Have you played Civilization, Lucas? It's very intimidating to have an ironclad appear off your coast when all you have is galleys...
<Anne_Marble> Stylized mohawks
<Robert> Okay, so anyone can join the Guard by qualifying for their high standards.
<CiceroCat> interesting ideas..... neat, lucas
<Anon_52> Sorry, my connection failed for a moment there.
<Danielle> lol Katherine
<Fredrick_> Am I back?
<Fredrick_> OK
<@SLViehl> But the ties of heir distribution would preserve the lines of ranks, and give the ruling powers a reason to keep the Guards, etc.
<CiceroCat> lotsa women might try for it instead of marrying off (if it's like no choice type marriages)
<Lucas> Sure Kaelle, if you knock of the heir you might get picked.
<CiceroCat> wb fred
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Lucas?
<Fredrick_> What does--oh welcome back, thanks CC
<CiceroCat> lol
<Danielle> keep writing, sounds great!
<@SLViehl> I'm going to call a five minute break now, btw
<DragonDancer> hey, Catherine!
<Robert> If you don't want local revolutionaries it has to go deep in custom, it can't just rely on weatlh and resources and dependence.
<@SLViehl> I'd reinforce the hierarchy with a non-military reason to preserve the ranks.
<CiceroCat> shiela--how much time is left for the chat?
<Robert> Cool, brb
<Nathan> brb
<Anne_Marble> Yay, I'm getting bouncy.
<James> Arriving just in time for the break -- I have the best timing
<@SLViehl> an hour, CC
<CiceroCat>
<Danielle> brb, need tea
<CiceroCat> ok--sorry couldn't remember--hate allergies
<Robert> BIG question: what's in it for copper and bronze people at all?
<CiceroCat> thnx
<Lucas> I'm not really sure how to establish this depth of custom I need Robert, but I'm working on it. These chats have been helping me a lot.
<@SLViehl> brb -- saying good night to the kids
<CiceroCat> protection?
<Catherine/splodge> Hello - everyone - I've had a nightmare trying to get in
<CiceroCat> k
<James> Hi Catherine
<Kaelle> Hi Catherine
<CiceroCat> hiya splodge
<CiceroCat>
<Katherine> I'm thinking of medieval Europe, Lucas, and the constant wars over succession in one country or another.
<Lucas> For one thing, the Guards are obviously better equipped to protect the copper and bronzes (both from outside invasion and from internal strife) than they are themselves. Aside from that, I'm still trying to establish reasons.
<@SLViehl> back -- Hiya Catherine
<CiceroCat> so it's a -- we're doing this for your own good type thing, lucas?
<Nathan> bak
<CiceroCat> wb
<Nathan> Hi Catherine
<@SLViehl> Lucas, did you ever post a thread on this? I think it would make a great discussion topic, world-building board, maybe?
<Lucas> One point was, the country was left intentionally loose. It could have been tied together under one ruler, but was left with several different Barons so that one betrayal to an enemy couldn't loose the entire island.
<Nathan> Are we on break or something?
<Katherine> With bronze age technology, lots of people will have to focus on raising food and will be too busy to much care about the caste system.
<CiceroCat> so whole presides over the nations?
<@SLViehl> Yep. Four minutes left, Nathan
<Lucas> Do, I haven't posted a thread this specific anyway. And sorry for carrying on all through break. Oops.
<CiceroCat> er -- baronies?
<Fredrick_> George R.R. Martin based his Storm of Ice + Fire on the War of the Roses, IIRC
<Nathan> Okay...had to plug something in for mom
<@SLViehl> Carry on, Lucas -- no problem
<CiceroCat> sok lucas, it's nice conversations
<CiceroCat> there isn't any just one head? like a president?
<CiceroCat> king?
<Lucas> Yes CiceroCat. That's what I'm calling them anyway. Semi-independent barons who are banded toghether into one nation. They have a common council but no one ruler. They determined it would be too much of a weak point to have one ruler, and went for distributed strength instead.
<Anne_Marble> I saw action figures that made me think of you, Robert. Cat-like humans with weapons.
<Nathan> Has aWhat the conversation?
<Danielle> back
<Nathan> lol anne
<Robert> Oooh purr, Anne!
<Lucas> Kind of like the file-sharing systems on the internet with no central servers.
<CiceroCat> ah -- sorry if i'm making you repeat yourself. My mind's not staying very well on tract today
<Fredrick_> Like the Borg?
<@SLViehl> More in keeping with the bronze age social structures, to have baronies, I think
<Anne_Marble> http://www.stanwinstoncreatures.com/realm_of_the_claw/comic/book1/index.html -- warning, loads slowly
<Nathan> What's the link?
<@SLViehl> brb -- must get my tea fix
<Anne_Marble> I bought one of those tonight.
<Lucas> True Shiela. The Baronies are only somewhat expanded city-states.
<@SLViehl> final call for you guys to get beverages/bathroom/whatever, too
<CiceroCat> wouldn't not having one official make it hard for uhm consensus? You know how much the senate and house bicker.... (btw, that's just something to keep in mind, not saying anything is wrong with it)
<Anne_Marble> They're designed by Stan Winston, the guy who designed the creatures from Alin.
<Fredrick_> I think fantasy has too many dark lords. It needs more evil commoners IMHO
<Anne_Marble> A.l.i.e.n.
<Nathan> Anne, What's the link for?
<Robert> I got coffee started, Ari fed, bathroom and new file started. Whew!
<Anne_Marble> The comic book for the Realm of the Claw action figures comic book.
<CiceroCat> new file, robert? that mean, new story?
<Lucas> I've got one of those in the works Fredrick.
<DragonDancer> speed demon = Robert (grin)
<Fredrick_> Can you imagine the want ads for dark lords?
<Anne_Marble> You can go here just to see the figures -- http://www.stanwinstoncreatures.com/
<Robert> My inconsistent mouse is behaving so I'm transcribing again.
<Nathan> What figures?
<Fredrick_> Seeking dark lord to pillage kingdom, bring general chaos and disorder, all those seeking call 555-GRRR
<Nathan> Figures as in math, or action figures?
<CiceroCat> lol
<Kaelle> rofl
<Robert> "I've seen too many incompetent slobs pass themselves off as Dark Lords and get defeated in my halls. I'm tired of losing. I am the Dark Lord now, greater than any!"
<Anne_Marble> The cat-like humans (or is that human-like cats) with weapons.
<@SLViehl> back -- and CC, warning, you're up next
<Danielle> great chance of promotion, can become God
<DragonDancer> there's a website called "so you want to be evil". It is quite amusing. It even has a test to see what kind of dark lord you'd be
<CiceroCat> me? I'm gonna pass sheila
<@SLViehl> no problem, CC
<Fredrick_> Yeah, I went to that site and enjoyed it
<CiceroCat>
<@SLViehl> DragonDancer, do you have a question for the group tonight?
<DragonDancer> pass
<Robert> Hey, Karactis read 101 Tips for Evil Overlords!
<Fredrick_> Or Dark Lord classifieds. Seeking Dark ladies for wanton destruction and cruelty.
<Danielle> lol
<@SLViehl> Deb, how about you? Got a question for us?
<Nathan> Is it good robert?
<DragonDancer> he didn't write it, Robert?
<DragonDancer>
<Robert> 101 Tips was up on a Rants thread for a while, used to be 40 Tips for Evil Overlords and *grew!*
<BklynWriter> i was gonna say no.. but....
<CiceroCat>
<CiceroCat> give us a q, bklyn
<Nathan> lol
<@SLViehl> Toss it to us, Deb.
<@SLViehl> And Fredrick, you'll be after Bklynwriter
<BklynWriter> how do you all regain momentum? i've lost it the momentum i had for Eden's Promise, and am having a very hard time getting back into it.
<Katherine> No question for me tonight, Sheila. Please drop me off the list.
<BklynWriter> i'm afraid of getting lost in an endless rewriting cycle
<CiceroCat> lol, same boat as you--i heard many suggestions
<@SLViehl> No prob, Katherine
<Robert> I reread it from page one polishing the sentences as I go. Keep going when I get to where there's no more book.
<CiceroCat> 1) write something on it no matter how bad or irrevelant, it gets youb ack in the groove
<Katherine> Are you still working on the first draft, Deb, or are you revising?
<CiceroCat> 2) work on something else
<BklynWriter> still on 1st draft...itching to rewrite
<James> I reread the whole thing, then rewrite the last chapter or scene that I managed to complete before losing momentum.
<CiceroCat> my personal suggestion---pretend you're a reader--read waht you have from beginning to where you left off
<@SLViehl> Split your time. 50% on the rewrite, 50% on a new project. And make goals for the rewrite -- finish Chapter one by such-and-such a date, and stick to it.
<Robert> Make rewrite notes and keep going as if you made the changes.
<@Jim> ping.
<CiceroCat> it will get you back in the groove and maybe pick up some new ideas, and places where to fix it
<Fredrick_> Refuse to read any books until you finish your own. Maybe.
<CiceroCat> if there are problems
<Nathan> pong
<@SLViehl> Oh, good one, Fredrick
<BklynWriter> should i start rewriting even though the 1st draft is still incomplete?
<CiceroCat> or maybe read others' works too, to give you a break from writing lol
<DragonDancer> refuse to read--? (faints)
<Lucas> That's a fierce one Fredrick.
<Fredrick_> No, finish the 1st draft
<Anne_Marble> That's a good one, Fredrick. haven't been able to write much since I started rereading those bloody dragon books.
<BklynWriter> I have Sheila's book on eternal hold until its done already!! LOL
<CiceroCat> not rewrite necessarily--but you can read back over it get it fresh in the mind
<@SLViehl> I always finish then go back and do the rewrite, once. That way, you don't bounce all over the place.
<Katherine> I do lots of freewriting, diving in from whatever angle seems interesting, regardless of whether it fits the outline or not.
<@SLViehl> lol
<James> Starting rewrite before completion tends to lead me into the eternal rewriting loop you said you were afraid of.
<Danielle> if there's enough in the first draft to give you the idea of what you want, keep going
<Fredrick_> Or oppositely give yourself a reward. Ten pages a chocolate, fifty a dinner for yourself and hubby, if you have one.
<BklynWriter> EXACTLY James!!!
<CiceroCat> or do what Holly I think suggested in an article--write the ending---that way you know what things you need to tie into through the middle to fit the ending
<@SLViehl> The RWA writers have this infamous tshirt some of them wear to conferences: "FINISH THE DAMN BOOK"
<Katherine> I also will let myself write pages of boring exposition, basically talking to myself about what the story is about.
<CiceroCat> oh yea, reward system is good
<Danielle> sometimes though there are problems that are bogging down the momentum, that have to be corrected with re-writing, like you've taken a wrong story path
<Katherine> I think that's my substitute for outlining.
<@SLViehl> Kind of extreme, but it gets the point acorss
<Fredrick_> Give yourself permission to screw up.
<BklynWriter> i need that tattooed on my arms, never mind a t-shirt
<@SLViehl> acorss=across
<Fredrick_> Nobody gets it right the first time.
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> If you don't finish, you can't start something new -- at least, that's my mindset
<Lucas> Katherine, I do some of my best plotting work when I just start typing pages of conversational speculation.
<DragonDancer> come to a word war...? that'll push you
<CiceroCat> god, i know that for sure fredrick LOL, i tend to be a perfectionist myself--so anyway, make itself interesting for you to finish---something to make you WANT to finish
<James> Maybe you could write something exciting and unexpected (even to you) as your next scene, and see if it sparks whole new ideas and directions that excite you into writing more.
<Lucas> That might be very similar to whay you're referring to.
<Fredrick_> "It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to be done." I don't know who said that about first drafts, but it's helped me.
<Danielle> interviewing characters seems to spark enthusiasm to go on for me
<Nathan> Basically you are stuck?
<BklynWriter> well...being here has helped....i've snuck away to write 100 words during this session
<CiceroCat> neat Bklyn
<Danielle> if you feel THEY want to know what's going to happen
<@SLViehl> Also, doesn't everyone feel better rewriting a finished project versus an unfinished project?
<Katherine> Kill someone, burn down their house, or kidnap their kids. That'll get things moving again.
<Robert> If you're stuck on a particular scene, sometimes it helps to gab about it in chat or think tank.
<CiceroCat> thats the ticket--find something, anything that inspires you and keep finding those things!
<@SLViehl> See, the Think Tank works, even for rewrite time
<Lucas> Sometimes it's helpful to log on to hollylisle.com just so you're shamed into writing.
<Danielle> oh yeah, the shame
<CiceroCat> i find reading writing articles helps inspire me
<Kaelle> Definitely
<DragonDancer> done that
<BklynWriter> i think i'm gonna push the envelope and turn up the heat between Jalen and her alien suitor
<Robert> Yes, lack of progress can be embarrassing if you usually make progress! Holly's articles and Breakout Novel are inspirational too.
<CiceroCat> neat bklyn
<DragonDancer> I write better in chat, I've found
<@SLViehl> Oh, yeah, push!
<Nathan> Put an Earthquake in
<BklynWriter> he's with her now, and she's nervous lol
<CiceroCat>
<James> As a particularly sad confession -- caffeine abuse often works for me. Just enough to make me edgy, then I can't stop writing. 'Course this can't be a long term solution
<@SLViehl> And if you get depressed, Chat will undepress you.
<Robert> Actually, Breakout Novel by Donald Maass is usually VERY inspirational. Every time he talks about six figure advances, I feel inspired and try something he suggests!
<BklynWriter> so true!!!
<CiceroCat> lol, i need some of that sheila
<@SLViehl> I've been there like almost every night this week, haven't I?
<CiceroCat> which reminds me-- i heard exercise helps -- don't know who suggested it, but it's supposed to help
<Danielle> tell someone your story so far, their enthusaism to know more may make you write
<BklynWriter> i have got to get that book!
<Robert> Write first thing when you wake up before you even sup coffee.
<CiceroCat> write right after you exercise
<BklynWriter> danielle, the first part of my story is posted on the SF&F board somewhere
<Lucas> If you are the sort who always wants to be doing two things at once, being logged in to this site can help. Then, when you get stuck on writing and just casually flip to another screen, you're just back to more things dealing with writing.
<BarGnat> Amazon has it on sale right now for 13.99
<@SLViehl> Sure, that helps boost your cardio vascular, and more blood to the brain, CC
<Danielle> cool, I'll go hunting, Deb!
<CiceroCat> neat Bklyn--what did you write it under (your name you posted as)
<Katherine> Exercise helps my creativity overall, but writing right after exercise is hopeless.
<CiceroCat> i'll go check it out
<BklynWriter> blasphemy robert!!!! i can barely get me & my kids out the door in time
<BarGnat> What's the title, Deb?
<BklynWriter> Eden's Promise
<BarGnat> thx
<CiceroCat> k
<BklynWriter> i think it is posted under NaNoWriMo stuff...somewhere LOL
<Robert> It's bizarre but it works if I'm feeling self conscious. I can write before I can function and I forget to worry about whether it's good if I'm still half dreaming.
<CiceroCat> ok we'll find it I'll keep at it to i do lol
<BklynWriter> Robert has been my cheerleader, and I've missed him terribly!!
<CiceroCat> neat robert
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Bklynwriter?
<Robert> Come to chat often and do word wars and get cheered. Cheering for raw count seems to work all the time!
<Danielle> follow what is fun, what you love, work to find that
<@SLViehl> Finish the book -- and give yourself time to work on new projects. I think a mix will help jump-start your motivation.
<@SLViehl> And hang out with us more. We'll nag you to death.
<Robert> Ari sprinkles cat hairs of inspiration!
<BklynWriter> i even miss the nagging (G)
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Anne_Marble> Achooo
<DragonDancer> bless you
<BklynWriter> ACHOOO
<BarGnat> bless you
<Danielle> gezundheit
<BklynWriter> (allergic)
<Danielle> and again
<DragonDancer> salud!
<Kaelle> uh oh . Blessings all.
<BklynWriter> and the lovely puke green haze of pollen all over my car does NOT help
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks to all for giving Deb a hard time -- (g) -- Fredrick, you're up, then Joel is after Fredrick, if he returns.
<Robert> Not to his special virtual coat for allergic writers!
<Fredrick_> I'm thinking about a humorous fantasy story about a superhero strike in a major city and I was wondering what weird reasons they might have for striking, like bad costumes, poor powers. And who would be the superscabs sent in to replace them? Any ideas? Names? The second stringers, so to speak.
<James> Lenient sentencing for supervillains?
<BklynWriter> that sounds like FUN Fredrick!
<Robert> Low pay. Poor working conditions.
<Danielle> rofl
<BklynWriter> striking for benefits, pensions?
<CiceroCat> no pay
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> Reasons for a strike: too many hours, no vacation time
<DragonDancer> hee hee. sounds like that will be a blast to write!
<Anne_Marble> There was a comic book that used to have lots of second string heroes. Justice League?
<DragonDancer> on call 24/7
<Danielle> costumes too tight
<Fredrick_> More bizarre. Bad jockstrap. Corporate overpromotion.
<James> Superscab itself is a perfect name...
<CiceroCat> too many people coming up to them for their autographs
<CiceroCat> the strike's reasons itself can be humorous
<@SLViehl> Corporations using the superheroes to clean up their messes
<BklynWriter> they strike because NOT ONE PERSON has EVER said THANK YOU
<DragonDancer> getting called from the shower too much
<Katherine> No protection for their families. Secret identities can't get credit.
<Anne_Marble> After "Watchmen" came out, everybody thought they were perverts or psychopaths.
<Kaelle> Yes, Deb
<Nathan> GoldfishMan
<@SLViehl> Ah, good one, Deb
<Danielle> villains aren't exciting enough for them, too mundane
<Fredrick_> Supes who have to advertise Pepsi on their uniform just to make ends meet
<Robert> No pay, works on call
<Kaelle> !
<CiceroCat> they'd send in the uhm.... sidekicks
<@SLViehl> lol Katherine
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> No hazard pay -- no cryptonite exposure insurance
<Fredrick_> Who would replace them? Cell Phone Man?
<Anne_Marble> And the male superheroes with male sidekicks are sick of the jokes! ;->
<CiceroCat> LOL anne
<Kaelle> snarf
<Danielle> yes CC, great!
<Fredrick_> Joke Strap
<@SLViehl> And who would replace them -- wannabes who never made the cut!
<Katherine> City fathers threatening lockout, cap on superhero salaries.
<@SLViehl> SometimesSuperMan
<Anne_Marble> SItCom Man
<DragonDancer> JellyLegs
<DragonDancer> NervelessNellie
<Fredrick_> Couch Potato
<Anne_Marble> RoachMan
<Robert> MightyMite
<CiceroCat> can u imagine Lois Lane coming in ---- ooh good idea--send in the girl or boy friends of the superheroes
<Danielle> their less appealing stunt doubles could replace them
<@SLViehl> LakeMan (versus Aquaman)
<CiceroCat> or their husbands/wives
<Nathan> Bobbin, The boy wonder
<DragonDancer> LoafofBread
<Fredrick_> Postal Employees
<Robert> Velcro Avenger
<Katherine> MerelyAdequateMan
<Fredrick_> Metermaid of Doom
<Anne_Marble> Jungle Boy, who feels really out of place in Manhattan
<DragonDancer> PossiblyHelpfulGirl
<@SLViehl> Heroes who have just so-so superpowers.
<DragonDancer> CheeseGrater
<CiceroCat> CuddlyMan--out to cuddle the villans/esses to death
<Anne_Marble> The Bouncer (boing boing boing)
<Danielle> the Deadly Fork
<Robert> SuperBimbo (Girl, Babe, Woman and Womyn already taken)
<BarGnat> BlunderWoman
<Anne_Marble> P.C. Man!
<Kaelle> ROFLMAO
<Fredrick_> The Waltzing Windowwashers
<@SLViehl> CPAman. Can balance a spreadsheet in a single bound. Who cares?
<DragonDancer> SirSpoonerism
<Danielle> oh yes, they're too unreconstructed, so they're replaced by pc heroes
<Anne_Marble> P.C. Man tries to understand the diversity of the supervillains.
<CiceroCat> lol daniel
<Danielle> Solo Dad Man
<Fredrick_> The Flatulent Four
<Robert> The Flying Romanov Brothers (not Karamzovs but like them, and trying to get a gig!)
<@SLViehl> WonderFemale
<CiceroCat> daniella i mean not daniel
<CiceroCat> lol
<Nathan> IRAman the ultimate villan
<Danielle> no worries
<CiceroCat> SuperHero4Hire
<Anne_Marble> Pigeon Boy
<DragonDancer> MiniSkirtChica (will flirt the villain to death)
<Nathan> Or is it IRS
<@SLViehl> WonderFemale who can leap through glass ceilings in a single bound
<Fredrick_> Dark Lord--will fight evil for food
<Anne_Marble> Roth IRA Man
<Robert> Mr. Mental the telepath, annoyed at being called "mental"
<@SLViehl> oh, good one, DD
<CiceroCat> snerk shiela
<James> It occurs to me that with the superheroes striking, you'd could get comedy out of very ill-tempered supervillains being hired in at outrageous salaries as the scabs -- doing the right thing for money despite remaining evil.
<Katherine> Like that, James!
<Fredrick_> What if supervillians worked as scabs?
<Danielle> lol James
<@SLViehl> Nice twist, James
<CiceroCat> neat idea
<Anne_Marble> Google Man, he can find anything. (That might be a trademark though)
<Robert> Yeah, if there's money in it they'd do it!
<DragonDancer> very cool, James!
<BarGnat> become closet villains?
<Nathan> The FBSH
<Fredrick_> Peck Pectorals
<Katherine> Also supervillains as thuggish strikebreakers roughing up picketing superheroes.
<Fredrick_> Newt Gingrich
<Anne_Marble> Or maybe the supervillains have their own sense of honor, they're villains because they're supposed to be villains. And they're upset that they're being forced to fight these fraces.
<Anne_Marble> farces
<Nathan> Federal Buareu of Superheroes
<@SLViehl> Can you see Doctor Octopus saving a train full of people from plunging into a ravine, hauling them up, grumbling, "I better get overtime, or they go over next time."
<CiceroCat> watch Tick for inspiratoin (if it's still on)
<Robert> Some might be. And corruption could be revealed as some fairly talented villains are hired to fight superheroes and throw the fight!
<Katherine> Supervillains refuse to cross picket lines, so superheros can stop crime by picking right place to picket.
<CiceroCat> lol sheila!
<DragonDancer> LOL, Sheila
<Dani> who are the villains if the villains are the new heroes?
<CiceroCat> uhm new villians?
<Fredrick_> What if the supervillians commit a crime and then arres themselves?
<DragonDancer> Bill Gates = supervillain!
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> The superheroes picketing would be the villains
<CiceroCat> MoralityMan
<Robert> A villain's power is revealed to be special effects used by a former WWF wrestler who liked a "bad guy" role and his victims are hired actors!
<Anne_Marble> CEO Man
<Fredrick_> Robocorpse
<DragonDancer> ping!
<CiceroCat> Ping?
<Robert> The Fantastic Fraud'
<CiceroCat> his twin could be Pong
<CiceroCat> lol
<Nathan> Pong?
<Anne_Marble> Ping Man!
<CiceroCat>
<CiceroCat> Ping and Pong
<Nathan> Yingman and yangman
<Fredrick_> The 7o Foot Soprano
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I know, Linux Man.
<DragonDancer> board keeps bumping me
<@SLViehl> EgoMan -- (oh, wait, that's Caleb Carr. Sorry)
<CiceroCat> oh man what about a Zen superhero
<Robert> (Courtesy of cartoonist Paul Trauth) Corpseman and his sidekick Necrophiliac Lass!
<DragonDancer> CATO = supervillain!
<James> Oh, Frederick yes -- the villains negotiate per rescue rates, then organize both a crime spree and their own rescure efforts to inflate their takings..
<CiceroCat> lol dd
<Anne_Marble> The Counter Tenors. They sing in really high voices and break glass.
<Nathan> Not-so-super-man
<CiceroCat> lol
<Kaelle> DD - beat me to it - CATO as supervillain
<Fredrick_> What about all those kids working in convenience stores? They might like to be heroes.
<Anne_Marble> That's it, Zen Man, he has a white costume with nothing on it. ;->
<Robert> She had him embalmed with his fist sticking out and swung him in fights with her super strength.
<Fredrick_> Glassman: he shatters at will
<CiceroCat> LOL
<@SLViehl> ProcrastinationMan. Wherever he is.
<CiceroCat>
<Dani> he takes all your possessions to make you contemplate emptiness, Zen man
<Fredrick_> Lawsuit Man: I'll sue!
<CiceroCat> Sir Whines A Lot
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Fredrick?
<James> Love Zen and Procrastination Man
<Nathan> Typoman
<CiceroCat> RunawayMan
<Fredrick_> P.C. Woman
<Kaelle> Super Model
<@SLViehl> I just have to say, you are going to have a blast writing this one. I love the whole idea.
<Robert> FerretMan!
<Anne_Marble> Even if you don't use all these as main characters, you could throw a lot of them into an audition scene.
<Lucas> Or maybe an incarnation of Amoralism - He helps everyone, no matter what they're doing.
<Robert> Sort of a longer skinnier Wolverine type that bends a lot and bites.
<Fredrick_> Russian Rumbler
<DragonDancer> LOL. audition... good one, Anne
<Nathan> Cheetah Man
<CiceroCat> lol i keep thinking of Pac man when people say PC man lol
<Anne_Marble> I love TypoMan! When he says something, his typos make things happen.
<Fredrick_> Maybe some of the strikers can do Broadway
<CiceroCat> good idea anne
<Nathan> Yeah...isn't it cool
<Nathan> and he only speaks typoian
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all you SuperWriters for the great ideas -- Joel, are you back?
<CiceroCat> hey maybe some of the heros are getting poed they aren't getting paid for movies made after them
<CiceroCat> like Spiderman movie
<Fredrick_> Book deals?
<Fredrick_> Faxman
<Robert> Villain Script Writer - he controls people's dialogue
<@SLViehl> Looks like Joel is out for the session. Jim, got a question for us tonight?
<DragonDancer> I Was a Teenage Superhero...
<CiceroCat> lo
<CiceroCat> l
<CiceroCat> lost my l
<Nathan> Ninjaman
<Fredrick_> Lost Letterman
<Katherine> (slipping out back door)
<@SLViehl> DandruffMan. Don't mess with him, or you'll flake forever
<Anne_Marble> Lost Letterman can do a talk show.
<Nathan> Bye katherine
<Dani2> lol Anne
<@SLViehl> night Katherine
<James> See you Katherine
<DragonDancer> adios, Katherine!
<BarGnat> bye
<CiceroCat> nite kat
<Anne_Marble> Bye Katherine
<Kaelle> Bye Katherine
<Fredrick_> Good night, Katherine
<Dani2> bye Katherine!
<CiceroCat> I hope Cato didnt' get jim
<@SLViehl> I'm going to assume Jim is multi-tasking and doesn't have a question for us, and Katherine I know doesn't. Oh, James.....
<James> I don't feel I've earned it tonight, but I do have one...
<@SLViehl> James, got something for the group?
<Anne_Marble> For an idea of dopey superheroes, watch the old Superfriends series on Cartoon Network, if you can.
<CiceroCat> Is Jim and JimM smae people?
<@SLViehl> Sock it to us
<Kaelle> Being here is enough, James
<@SLViehl> Yep, CC
<Nathan> i beleive so
<DragonDancer> you're here, you earned it
<CiceroCat> k coz both or on there
<CiceroCat> maybe he's having problems
<James> Given my bad habit of piling up a lot of things I'm working or, and not finishing often enough, I was thinking of spending a year just doing short stories. But novels are where I want to be in the end, so wonder if I should just focus on novels . I'd welcome discussion of the pros and cons.
<Nathan> Probably having problems
<Lucas> And the two scoops kellog's raisin bran...
<@SLViehl> Novels versus short stories.
<Fredrick_> Write short stories and combine them into novels?
<Dani2> do short stories appeal to you to write?
<CiceroCat> i'd focus on novels if that's what you want to write
<@SLViehl> You get more money for novels. More prestige.
<Fredrick_> Asimov did that for Foundation.
<CiceroCat> don't force yourself to write what you don't really want to
<Robert> Try scheduling a particular week of the month for short stories?
<@SLViehl> Novels are harder to sell, and take longer to write.
<James> I've trouble keeping short stories short, Dani -- they grow novelish on me.
<Dani2> otoh, finishing something would be encouraging
<BarGnat> Use short stories as "breaks"
<Fredrick_> I thought short stories were harder.
<CiceroCat> i heard that short stories do not really help you sell novels, either -- since they are different
<@SLViehl> Short stories sell better, less time investment.
<Dani2> yeah, I get that too
<@SLViehl> Also, less satisfaction (for me, anyway) and less prestige
<JimM> Think of shorts as story arcs in a novel.
<CiceroCat> i find they are, fred, because i tend to write longer than 7000 words
<Nathan> Why not write Shorts stories 6 months and novels(s) the other 6
<Lucas> I've considered doing the occasional short story just to loosen my mind up while I'm working on a longer project.
<James> It's time and finishing I was thinking of, I guess -- to get firmly into the habit of finishing.
<Dani2> one author writes shorts set in her novel world, to write her hand in, so to speak
<CiceroCat> or not limit yourself at all-- write a short story when you want--write a novel when you want
<BarGnat> What Lucas said works for me
<Dani2> like a practise with the characters
<Robert> Every time you cut a chunk of infodump you loved, hang a short story on just that point.
<@SLViehl> You've got a limited amount of time to write, James -- what's more important to you?
<CiceroCat> ah well... i don't know if short stories will help you too much on practice at finishing
<Nathan> Write a novel, and when you are stuck, write a short story...
<CiceroCat> it might just distract
<@SLViehl> My short stories always end up turning into novels, anyway
<Nathan> or vice versa
<Nathan> lol
<CiceroCat> finishing novels, that is
<CiceroCat> short stories and novels are very different thingies...
<James> Novels are more important to me, I think -- no I'm sure, but sometimes I feel like I'm being too scattergun in my approach to them.
<Fredrick_> Set aside writing time, a standard number of hours or minutes a day
<Dani2> how do you mean, scattergun?
<CiceroCat> scattergun how? too many ideas?
<Nathan> What does the word scattergun mean?
<James> Scattergun = too many projects going at once, spending too little time on each.
<@SLViehl> Novels demand a lot of focus. Much more so than short stories.
<Fredrick_> To be honest, I think writing both novel and short stories is hard--the only difference is length.
<@SLViehl> And novels take a lot out of you.
<CiceroCat> ah well---can u just pick one or two to write on and finish?
<Dani2> mmm, me too. I think the key is to find one that's satisfying
<CiceroCat> i thikn they are both equally hard, fred--but a different uhm kind of hardness
<Robert> If you have trouble finishing things, a few stories may raise your morale and make it easier to focus on the novels.
<Dani2> yeah, exactly
<CiceroCat> like, scifi and fantasy are different
<@SLViehl> good point, Robert
<CiceroCat> but both are hard to write
<CiceroCat> good point robert
<Fredrick_> You may want to tantalize yourself by planning another story while you write your current one.
<Nathan> Write what is easiest for you to write
<Dani2> you might need to learn a whole lot of new skills to write short, very distracting
<James> It's entirely possible I've just had one of those self-doubt filled weeks. But what Robert said is how I'm thinking at the moment.
<CiceroCat> true dani
<CiceroCat> Dani were you Danille?
<CiceroCat> Danielle
<Dani2> yep, keep getting kicked out
<CiceroCat> lol i will spell your name right eventually -- ah wb
<Dani2> stick with dani then
<Robert> I do both and usually when I get a shrot story idea, I just write it begin to finish right then. Then let it sit a while and work on other things till I rewrite.
<CiceroCat> ok lol
<James> That's true, Dani -- shorts aren't natural to me. I've done them, but long seems my natural form.
<Fredrick_> Do you have a universe to write in?
<Nathan> Then do novels
<DragonDancer> have you tried writing a story as an epic poem?
<Dani2> then I think you need to find the right long story to keep your interest
<Robert> Shorts weren't my natural form but Daily Exercises gave me lots of ideas for them.
<James> Several, Frederick. Too many, probably.
<Fredrick_> Combine them maybe
<Dani2> I say this like I know, but I've got the same problem
<CiceroCat> neat robert
<@SLViehl> You're getting scattered, I think, James
<Lucas> Any short story I think of always seems to have the potential for a much longer story. It amazes me how people who regularly write shorts can keep themselves controlled enough to not try turning everything into a huge story.
<Nathan> Destroy a couple
<James> Ah, DragonDancer, I'm a dreadful poet...
<Jim> Same here... I generally have prefered reading novels to shorts all my life... you write what you know... in my case, that's the novel.
<DragonDancer> I didn't say it had to be a good poem. Mine aren't (grin)
<Fredrick_> I love both, but for different reasons
<Fredrick_> Have you tried novellas or novelettes, James?
<Robert> Edit a small press anthology and you will develop new appreciation for short stories and get better at them.
<Jim> I think Bob's doing limericks next week... should be funny.
<@SLViehl> Short stories are like dessert. Novels are the main course.
<Fredrick_> Then combine them into one book.
<CiceroCat> problem with those tho, fred, are they are hard to sell, aren't they?
<James> A couple in worlds I created for novels, Frederick.
<CiceroCat> novelettes and novellas
<Dani2> do you still like the novels you're working on, or are they boring you?
<Fredrick_> Yeah, but you might be able to combine them into a novel or novels.
<Anon_30> Grrrrr
<Jim> Some of the magazines by novelettes and novellas... but I imagine they're a hard sell.
<Anne_Marble2> Grrrr
CiceroCat i might have a question after all, sheila... if no one else has one, and time's okay, can i ask it?
<Dani2> wb Anne
<James> If I focus one one, I get excited with it, Dani, but then drift away over time.
<Jim> by -> buy...
<DragonDancer> CATO attacks again...
<CiceroCat> wb
>CiceroCat< Sure CC
<Nathan> WB Anne
<Dani2> me too!
<James> Hi again, Anne
<Jim> Cato gets everyone... he's an equal opportunity destroyer.
<Nathan> I am the only person that Cato- {Slaps hand over mouth}
<Dani2> I read in an earlier think tank that it means you haven't got the mix right - an idea you feel passionate enough about to keep on at
<Anne_Marble2> Shhhhh, Nathan.
<Fredrick_> I know it's been mentioned, but I like Holly's write the end first idea. That way you can write to it.
<BarGnat> talk about tempting fate, Nathan!
<DragonDancer> (narrows eyes) that just ain't fair. you're in for it now, Nathan
<DragonDancer> (grin)
<CiceroCat> lol nathan, don't wanna jinx yourself
<@SLViehl> I like the epiphanies -- ideas so strong they change your religion
<Lucas> Aack Nathan, dive! Dive!
<Anne_Marble2> I sometimes start my novels by writing them as really really busy short stories.
<CiceroCat> yeah i never tried it myself fred--but it seems like it might really helpl
<Nathan> {Carefully removes hand from mouth} But it's true s/he hardly ever - {Slaps hand over mouth}
<Fredrick_> Do you ever throw out slack--by that I mean story bits
<Nathan> That's my job BG
<James> Do you mean, Anne, a first draft that's almost like an outline, but with dialogue and other things?
<Fredrick_> It gives you some room to maneuver in the story
<Dani2> you have to care, I reckon, or it'll show in the writing
<CiceroCat> also, consider doing something like a posting of daily word count on the forum--that way people can bug you to write more and you have a show of progress, that helps to keep depressin off
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for James?
<James> When I'm definitely turing out words per day, I do profit from the word count boards. They're great!
<Fredrick_> One problem I've noticed is that so many people worry about the first draft that they never get it done. My advice: don't worry.
<Dani2> try bringing one you're less interested in to think tank and we'll bat it around, regain your interest!
<Kaelle> And Holly says, when you're stuck, it's time to hurt someone.
<Robert> Work on both. Fiddle with shorts when frustrated.
<CiceroCat> good advice fred
<CiceroCat> lol kaelle--and holly
<Fredrick_> First draft are just templates.
<Fredrick_> Use them to write the better version.
<@SLViehl> Write every day, even if it's 100 words. Keep at it, work through the duldrums.
<James> Thank you everyone, that was helpful!
<Anne_Marble2> Yes, a first draft that's sort of like an outline, but not really intended as one. Sort of. With some "insert here's" and such.
<Nathan> You are welcome
<Nathan> Hi Holly
<@SLViehl> Hiya Holly
<Jim> Hi Holly!!
<Dani2> if no one else has a question, can I ask something related, Sheila?
<Kaelle> Hi Holly!
<CiceroCat> hi holly!
<Robert> Hi, Holly!
<Dani2> hi Holly
<BarGnat> Hi, Holly
<DragonDancer> Hi, Holly!
<Anne_Marble2> Hello
<James> Thanks, Anne -- I've not tried that, and it's the sort of thing that might derail my internal critic.
<James> Hello, Holly
<@SLViehl> Catherine, you're up, and then CC has a question for the group
<Holly> Hiya -- didn't want to interrupt. Just thought I'd come in and hang out a bit.
<Lucas> Admiral on the bridge!
<@SLViehl> Okay, everyone hide the liquor.
<Fredrick_> This is a civilian ship.
<Nathan> {Salutes}
<Robert> <Ari salutes>
<@SLViehl> lol
<DragonDancer> (snaps to attention and salutes)
<BarGnat> <G>
<BklynWriter> hiya Holly
<Dani2> (spit polishes shoes)
<Jim> <--- designated driver.
<James> You know, in Trek, something always goes wrong when the Admiral's on the bridge...
<@SLViehl> Catherine, got a question for us tonight?
<Dani2> darn, I'm wearing socks
<BklynWriter> i've been AWOL for a while
<Robert> <Robert stands up straight, falls over>
<Nathan> lol James
<CiceroCat> i hate to say it, but it seemed like--speak of the devil--we should speak of holly more often and conjure her here
<DragonDancer> (helps Robert up)
<CiceroCat>
<CiceroCat> lol poor robert
<Nathan> Robert, you okay?
<Lucas> What were we talking about, anyway? Dani, you had something you were going to ask?
<@SLViehl> (putting Ari on Robert's lap)
<Anne_Marble2> Anne plays with her Scorpion King figure.
<Dani2> no, I thought there were no other questions left, I'll wait
<Robert> It was that trying to stand up and salute thing. Thanks! Ari on lap keeps me from tipping over!
<@SLViehl> Last call, Catherine, are you out there?
<Catherine/splodge> sorry - pass
<CiceroCat> oh no, splodge has been having problems---phew
<CiceroCat> you are here
<Dani2> put that breechcloth back on, Anne!
<CiceroCat> lol
<Catherine/splodge> I got distracted!
<@SLViehl> No Problem -- CC, you're up
<CiceroCat>
<Anne_Marble2> It doesn't come off.
<Dani2> wah!
<DragonDancer> bad girls!
<James> I've gone slow again, so don't be alarmed if my answers seem strangely irrelevant.
<CiceroCat> ok--mine's a shorty: at what time do you decide to give up on a story or novel?
<@SLViehl> When you hate it so much you want to burn it
<Dani2> Holly's got a good article about that on the site!
<Robert> When I've recycled it into a background thing on a better one.
<CiceroCat> really? I'll have to check it out dani
<Dani2> (not really sucking up per se)
<Nathan> Never give up! Never surrender!!
<Kaelle> Hmmm. I never do. I change it into something else.
<CiceroCat> lol--what movie was what nathan
<@SLViehl> good attitude, Nathan
<Fredrick_> Galaxy Quest
<Nathan> Galaxy Quest
<Kaelle> Galaxy Quest
<Holly> (Title _Burn It, Bury It, Let It Live_)
<CiceroCat> oh no, i like Holly's articles---- neat, thanx on the movie title
<@SLViehl> Excellent article, Hol -- check it out if you get a chance, CC
<CiceroCat> thnx Holly
<James> I only ever really give up when it's rejected too many times or someone publishes something too similar -- otherwise I drawer it for a while.
<Nathan> With Tim Allen, my third fav. actor
<CiceroCat> so in first draft and uncompleted--i should wait longer to decide or not?
<Nathan> Thank you Shela
<@SLViehl> I file stuff away, CC, and sometimes six months later pull it out and can fix it
<Dani2> the article's got a set of questions to ask yourself about the story
<Lucas> There's usually something good, even in a story that has become so irritating/boring/etc you can't stand it any more.
<Nathan> Shela=sheila
<Fredrick_> You can always rewrite, look at it from a different angle
<@SLViehl> How much work have you got done, CC?
<Dani2> gives you a chance to still love enough of it to save
<CiceroCat> uhm---- half done
<Dani2> or not
<Fredrick_> Maybe you have the wrong protagonist?
<CiceroCat> first draft only
<CiceroCat> and mediocre world building
<Nathan> Hi Cato
<Fredrick_> It's only a first draft.
<Dani2> yeah, but its first draft!
<Robert> If it was only a dream, whose worst nightmare would it be?
<CiceroCat> wb jim
<Dani2> wb Jim
<Fredrick_> First drafts aren't meant to be perfect.
<Nathan> WB Jim
<CiceroCat> yeah i was just wondering--if it would be a waste of time...
<@SLViehl> CC, consider this -- if you push through and finish, you can go back and rewrite.
<Dani2> that's what rewrites are for (or so I hear)
<@SLViehl> How often do you guys think what you're writing stinks?
<Fredrick_> To first draft is human, to rewrite is divine
<CiceroCat> i resurrected it once--when someone said my worldbuilding was very faulty... but i don't know--not it seems same faults
<Robert> Sometimes I try things I don't yet have the skills to do well and then later, redo it and it's good.
<CiceroCat> lol fred
<@SLViehl> (me, at least three, four times a week.)
<Kaelle> All the time!
<Nathan> All the time
<Anne_Marble2> Always
<Dani2> you need to learn somehow!
<Fredrick_> Sometimes.
<@SLViehl> I ignore that "Oh, this sucks!" voice in my head alot
<CiceroCat> thanks all -- i'm a pack rat, it won't be deleted, but i just don't know if i'll ever finish it
<Anne_Marble2> That's why reading my old stuff is helpful. I realize how much better I have gotten.
<DragonDancer> when I get an English paper back.... I mean, uh, daily
<BarGnat> Usually, right after I've put the submission in the mail. Sigh.
<Robert> Often. I try to stay in the megalomaniac state while writing and the critical while rewriting.
<CiceroCat> lol i'll try--but she's usually pretty VOCAL in my head
<Holly> If it's sucking the life out of your writing and you think you'd rather quit than finish it, kill it immediately. Otherwise, do some consideration.
<Dani2> good advice Robert!
<James> I'd say store it to get some distance (nothing's as bad as you think it is), then choose your path. But if you think your worldbuilding is mediocre, I'd work on that a little.
<Fredrick_> Time makes work look worse sometimes, which can be a good thing.
<Lucas> I try telling myself that if I produce something, even if it sucks, I'll be a lot better off than if I never did anything at all.
<Fredrick_> If you need to fix it up
<@SLViehl> I might steal that as some future Jorenian philosophy, James.
<CiceroCat> hmmm, not really sucking hte life out of my writing--I still have other ideas for other stories.... but it was my first real novel attempt
<Holly> Finish it if you can. It's always best to finish projects.
<James> Feel free
<CiceroCat> good idea james--work on my worldbuilding some more
<Fredrick_> I dumped a novel after 180 pages.
<Robert> I used to play this worldbuilding game with myself. "That was arbitrary and stupid. What conditions would make it work?" and add a lot and get good world building.
<@Cato (Jim)> CC: You can always revise.
<CiceroCat> nother good policy--lucas.... maybe i should try to finish it
<Fredrick_> Have you tried to rewrite the novel using another character?
<@SLViehl> Holly's right, finishing gives you a sense of accomplishment, too
<CiceroCat> hmm, true catojim
<CiceroCat> well... i dunno .... the voice seems best from this one character's pov
<Lucas> It could be worth a shot CiceroCat. If you have something, you can improve on it, if you've got nothing, where can you go?
<Holly> You can always say "I wrote a novel," rather than "I started a novel." You don't have to add "It was a sucky novel." (Assuming it was.)
<BarGnat> <G>
<CiceroCat> true holly
<Robert> Yes. If you've never finished a novel, sink in like a bulldog and get it done! Real self respect comes from "I finished a novel"
<Dani2> and doing it will always teach you something you didn't know about writing
<Fredrick_> We all write dreck at one time or another. It's not like anyone's immune.
<@SLViehl> Amen, Fredrick
<Dani2> there's so much to learn!
<CiceroCat> true lol
<@SLViehl> That's the fun part, Dani
<Dani2> yup!
<Fredrick_> Even Tolstoy had his flops, I'm sure
<CiceroCat> maybe i just have that mid-story blues too
<@SLViehl> you never stop learning as a writer. You never stop growing.
<Fredrick_> Yeah, I get that.
<@SLViehl> Middles are kind of tough.
<@SLViehl> Sargasso-Sea tough.
<DragonDancer> middles are rough on us all
<Lucas> Robert, what prompted you to say that to yourself? Or did you just start by assuming that everything you did was potentially on shaky ground so you could push it and see what would really tip over?
<Fredrick_> Sometimes I feel like it'll never end, especially after 50,000
<CiceroCat> just that i haven't written on it for so long it seems -- last day was end of march madness thingy
<@SLViehl> Can you maim or kill anyone, or blow anything up, CC?
<CiceroCat> i'm used to writing everyday
<CiceroCat> lol kill someone -- that might be fun
<Kaelle> Oy. I know my beginning and the end - it's that darn middle. "What happens next?"
<Dani2> I like that whole, what's the worst thing that could happen? plotting
<BarGnat> Just think of the worst thing you can do to your protag
<CiceroCat> well i have it planned out, kaelle, i just can't make myself write it and i wonder if it's my subconscious saying: that's because it sucks jodi
<Fredrick_> Do you have any of Holly's candy bar scenes you really want to write?
<@SLViehl> there's a reason lots of action happens in the middle of my books. To get me through them.
<Dani2> what do they want? ok, how do I screw that up?
<CiceroCat> lol shiela
<Fredrick_> Shiela
<Holly> Ditto, Sheila. <g>
<Kaelle> lol Sheila
<CiceroCat> good idea dani although the mcs are due for some downtime
<Dani2> maybe that's why you're stopped?
<@SLViehl> How about skipping that part, CC, and go on to the next? You can tackle the lag scene on the rewrite
<DragonDancer> downtime schmowntime
<Dani2> downtime doesn't interest you?
<Lucas> I believe it about middles. The candy bar scenes are a big help, otherwise you can reach a point where you're just grinding along and feeling totally stifled and uninventive.
<Dani2> jump over that sucker!
<CiceroCat> because my characters are going into downtime? .... it's not wrong to skip ahead to different scenes? I was told it was
<Dani2> no! nothing is ever flat out wrong!
<@SLViehl> Oh, who told you that? I'll smack them.
<Robert> Four months later, they had news of what happened...
<CiceroCat> well they do need to get home... so it'skinda necessary
<Holly> Rule of thumb -- If you find it boring to write it, don't. Skip it. Books consist of going from fun bit to fun bit.
<CiceroCat> maybe htey end up somewhere else--try a different less structured idea....
<Dani2> no, they got home, you don't want to write it, reader won't need to read it
<James> Or find a reason to make the downtime interesting without overt action -- give them problems with the relationship between the MCs, have them settle emotional issues they didn't have time for during the action scenes.
<@SLViehl> I use that "after six weeks on the road, we were . . . " opening sentence alot.
<CiceroCat> ah
<@SLViehl> good idea, James
<CiceroCat> lol, good idea
<Fredrick_> What is the worst thing your character could do at this point?
<Holly> Damn straight. No one ever needs to read about a dull road trip.
<Dani2> if reader is also expecting downtime, surprise them with what happens
<Lucas> That's one of those things I need to get more courage about. Skipping time. I work on novel length things, but end up doing them with the same non-broken continuity you might expect from a short story or novellete.
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for CC?
<CiceroCat> maybe it is the downtime messing me up--maybe they need a little more happening to htem---
<Holly> I think in Vincalis, I skipped five years with a single sentence.
<Fredrick_> I take Stephen King's advice and go as fast as I can.
<@SLViehl> Lucas has a good point -- remember, don't be a timekeeper and track every single moment of every day. Skip the dull stuff
<CiceroCat> whoa, neat holly
<Nathan> Cool Holly
<Kaelle> I noticed that Holly, but only because I knew you had to condense the story.
<@JimMills> Yeah, I noticed the short transition, Holly...
<Lucas> Which can work sometimes, with plenty of action happening, but it's not always the best thing to do because it can seem absurd to have stuff happening constantly, plus then the story has to begin and end in a few days!
<CiceroCat> hmmm, thanx guys--i think i will try writing on it again at least get through the rough draft--get rid of my procrastinator spirit
<CiceroCat>
<Fredrick_> Reverse psychology. Write stuff so boring you'll have to write fun stuff
<Dani2> yeah, make them do some accounting
<Lucas> That would take about five minutes Fredrick. Zoom, out of there.
<@SLViehl> Good for you CC -- and thanks to all for some great ideas.
<@JimMills> Fredrick -- write every sentence in passive voice just for fun?
<@SLViehl> Holly, Jim, want to ask the group a question?
<CiceroCat> thanx all---this was a good TT lotsa interesting qs
<Holly> I do, actually.
<Fredrick_> Or read Sword of Shannara. It will make you feel better.
<CiceroCat> ooh more qs? neat, shoot!
<Anne_Marble2> I once had the characters in my mediation novel try to figure out pricing. I used to edit proposals at the time.
<@SLViehl> Hit us with it, Holly
<Nathan> Thats a good book
<CiceroCat> neat anne
<DragonDancer> haven't read that in years...
<@JimMills> now entering overtime...
<Fredrick_> I disagree. The writing is atrocious.
<CiceroCat> never read his works....
<@SLViehl> Holly's got a question, guys, hang on.
<@JimMills> Still, he sells...
<Holly> I've never written a book without an outline. I'm flying through one right now, and it's going ... well ... I guess, but having no idea where it's going to end up, I'm having a crisis of faith.i
<Nathan> I'm Reading it...good book
<CiceroCat> k
<Anne_Marble2> That's nothing, my scams class transcript was 130 kilobytes.
<Holly> I'm tempted to outline, in spite of the fact that I previously wanted to try this just to see how it went.
<Holly> More than anything, I'd like some opinions from the rest of you.
<Holly> To outline -- or not?
<Kaelle> You're feeling nervous about doing something different?
<Anne_Marble2> I used to outline, but I have written my most recent stuff from the seat of my pants.
<Robert> Holly, ahh... you're trying the 'not outline' - just keep going and keep giving em trouble. That ruthless questioning "what can I do to them now? What did they set themselves up for?"
<Dani2> thanks for posting the excerpts, btw!
<Anne_Marble2> And it works. I know I can always go back and change things.
<@SLViehl> No outline is like working without a net, for me. Scary. But a good challenge, too.
<James> If you wanted to try it out, and it's gone well so far, I'd keep going until it felt as if something concrete had gone wrong.
<BarGnat> How far along are you?
<CiceroCat> well, do you have a vague idea where it is heading? you could try that just very vague ideas not nearly as structured as full outlining
<Robert> I'm beginning to think the plotting process is the same and some do it first and some while it's going, but it's still just plotting.
<Dani2> it maust be hard to keep from mentally planning it out anyway
<@SLViehl> Thing is, after you write enough books, you sort of mentally outline things -- or at least, see ahead while you're writing.
<James> Otherwise, it'll have an aura of failed experiment about it, maybe.
<Lucas> If you have no idea where it's going, and you don't feel comfortable with this, maybe you should try looking at what you already have. Is it good so far? Good enough to trust that it will come together in the end? Or does it seem impossible to tell, and that's why the sudden nervousness about it?
<Holly> I have over 15,000 words in what will be a 50,000 word YA.
<@JimMills> I'm not sure I could tell a good story without first outlining, Holly... you're the one that said "outline to death."
<Fredrick_> Holly, below your days writing write what you think will happen next. Just ideas.
<CiceroCat> good ideas, follow instinct
<@SLViehl> But for sheer creative serendipity -- it would be a cool experiment.
<Robert> That's far enough to trust you can push toward the ending you more or less decided, not knowing its details.
<@JimMills> I usually find my outlines vary somewhat, anyway...
<Nathan> Don't Outline...Then you have no idea what happens next and you can write whatever you want, without the restrictions or limitations of an outline
<DragonDancer> I don't outline much. more fun that way
<Lucas> If you know it will come together, despite not knowing just how it will do this, that could be enough.
<Holly> This feels like writing in thick fog -- I can see the next day's work pretty clearly, but have no clue what I'll write the day after that.
<Nathan> I agree DD
<Dani2> do you feel you've veered off a track you want?
<Fredrick_> Outline, but do it in moderation. And don't feel that you have to be a slave to the outline.
<BarGnat> Sooner or later the MC takes over and writes some of the story anyhow
<CiceroCat> maybe just have an idea of the ending in mind, that way youcan make up what is the middle
<Kaelle> But is your next day's work going well?
<Holly> Dani -- I have no idea where the track is. It's all unexplored territory.
<Robert> Keep doing Word Wars! They work for you and everyone around you!
<@JimMills> What are your themes?
<Lucas> Unlike a fog, THIS fog clears up after you walk forward. You can see where you've been, just not exactly where you're going.
<Holly> Yeah -- each day, I finish knowing pretty well what I'll be doing the next day.
<CiceroCat> Or, try reverse outlining--if you're about 1/3 of the way through, write chapter outlines on previous chapters--this will help you see any subconscious threads and stuff running through it
<Anne_Marble2> If I have an idea for something that will happen in a scene to come soon, I type it in all caps and stick it at the bottom of the file
<@SLViehl> Is it easier to write this way, or harder on you, Holly?
<Holly> But I have no clue what the themes are going to be -- because I don't know what the ending is going to be.
<Dani2> Are you finding yourself surpressing structuring thoughts?
<CiceroCat> ah
<Kaelle> Ah
<@SLViehl> This is really working without a net.
<Holly> Oh hell, Sheila, after 20+ novels with outlines, I can write a book from an outline about in my sleep. This, on the other hand, feels like murder.
<Holly> Or suicide.
<CiceroCat> maybe instead of outlines--write things on post-it notes -- like a main event you want to happen and post them around your desk or writing environment
<@JimMills> Or stretching your wings.
<@SLViehl> You're trying something new -- it doesn't mean bad, just means work.
<Fredrick_> Look back at the beginning. It can give you ideas on how to end.
<Lucas> I'm wondering what prompted you to try writing without an outline, or even a firm idea of the ending. It sounds like you're trying to stretch yourself a little. (or a lot)
<DragonDancer> and put them in wherever, CC?
<Holly> The thing is, do I look at it as, "If it hurts, it's probably good for me.?"
<Holly> Or if it hurts, am I doing something wrong?
<CiceroCat> yeah--or they could just serve as reminders too dd
<@SLViehl> You're stretching past your boundaries. That's gonna hurt.
<Holly> Bodybuilder approach versus Physical Therapist approach....
<DragonDancer> if it hurts so much you feel like quitting, something's wrong
<Fredrick_> Growing pains.
<Anne_Marble2> Listen to Glenn Gould. :->
<BarGnat> any challenge is going to give you a little pain ... maybe a lot... but think of the satisfaction
<@JimMills> Something to put in your memoirs, Holly.
<Anne_Marble2> (That worked for me!)
<CiceroCat>
<Robert> Sometimes when it hurts it's when I'm doing it right.
<@SLViehl> Sometimes we push ourselves to do more than what's comfortable for a reason we don't always understand, right?
<Nathan> What Iike to do is start a story with the end in mind (Hoping don;t get some kinda memory disease) and then write the beginning off f that
<@JimMills> It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.
<James> If it hasn't stopped you writing, then it's only pain. Are you still getting any buzz from doing it without a safety net?
<Kaelle> I think that as long as you know where you're going for the next day, I wouldn't worry about it until you get stuck.
<Nathan> f=of
<Holly> I figure there has to be some subconscious reason why I decided to try this now.
<@SLViehl> Gut feeling -- keep at it. Even for just this one time. If it totally sucks and bombs, then you'll know.
<Robert> Yeah. If you know what's up next that's going good for 'no outline method"
<Fredrick_> Do you take daily walks, Holly? They help.
<@SLViehl> If you don't try it, you'll never know.
<Holly> I just haven't been able to dig out what it is.
<Lucas> That's a point Kaelle, it's only when you *don't* know what to do the next day that you're really in trouble.
<Fredrick_> You might be pushing yourself too hard.
<Dani2> would writing an outline deprive you of any pleasure in the story?
<Nathan> Watch a lot of movies...who knows, you might get inspiration
<Robert> Even then usually rereading the last chapter gets it going.
<CiceroCat> you could keep a mental outline--remember main events and happenings in previous chapters--if you can recall them in your head, then you know your readers will too... just a sentence or so
<Robert> I also keep an ending loosely in mind.
<Holly> I'm not short on inspiration, and I can drop 2000 words on it in an hour pretty much every time I sit down with it.
<Holly> It's just that ... I think it's the control freak in me. I like to have things planned.
<BarGnat> then try to ignore the pain and keep going
<Holly> I like to be early.
<CiceroCat> ah
<Lucas> It's just uncomfortable to be taking a trip with no map.
<@SLViehl> (polishing the control freak sign on my desk) Yep.
<DragonDancer> put control freak in box and hide the key for a while
<Holly> Lucas -- yeah.
<CiceroCat> lol sheila
<Dani2> fight off the control freak... if just for this one book
<Anne_Marble2> Maybe you need a dart board. Or a stress ball.
<Holly> I don't want to end up out in the desert with no way back.
<Fredrick_> Put control freak in a straightjacket.
<Robert> I'm going to be trying writing with a full mutable outline for the first time this summer and I don't assume it'll work, but I'll give it my best.
<Fredrick_> And remember, even deserts have oases.
<@SLViehl> It's a gamble.
<DragonDancer> you can find your way back-- you've still got your steps laid out
<CiceroCat> then take a long someone for the ride--at least you won't be al one--show it to someone as you write the novel
<DragonDancer> (behind you, I mean)
<Dani2> then at least you can say, I tried it, it's not for me
<BarGnat> but one that's worth a try!
<James> So you're only 17 hours from the end? You can stand anything for seventeen hours
<@SLViehl> Based on what I've read, it's worth the risk.
<Robert> If you hang way out there it usually means that a better ending is ahead than the one planned.
<Lucas> I know how that feels. I'm always more comfortable when I know what's happening next, and after that, and after that...
<Robert> Go, Holly, Go!
<Holly> James -- that may be the weirdest way to think of it I've ever come across ...
<Holly> But it works.
<@SLViehl> If you don't, you'll always wonder....
<Dani2> ask yourself - did you want us to say, write an outline? That'll tell you something.
<Holly> Yeah. Seventeen more hours in the fog. We had worse days than that in Ohio.
<CiceroCat>
<@SLViehl> Yeah, I'm like the Outline Queen, right? <g>
<James> I'm known for my weird
<Kaelle> I like your wierd, James
<CiceroCat> can i be the queen procrastinator then lol
<Kaelle> wierd = weird
<@SLViehl> CC is the queen's procrastinator.
<DragonDancer> (starts handing out crowns)
<Fredrick_> Dark Lord of the Wait
<CiceroCat> thank you bows
<James> Why, thank you, Kaelle
<Robert> I've been procrastinating on my procrastination.
<CiceroCat> another suggestion from a Libra to a Libra--try a happy middle road Holly
<Kaelle> De nada, James
<Nathan> Lol Robert
<Holly> Thanks, guys.
<Holly> Very helpful.
<Nathan> Personally, I would procrastinate...But I don't have the time
<CiceroCat> that's good
<Kaelle> You are entirely welcome, Holly. Glad to help.
<CiceroCat> lol nathan
<Nathan> You are Velcome
<Robert> If you still know what's in the next chapter you're not lost. Have FUN with it, Holly! Roller coasters are supposed to be fun!
<@SLViehl> And I think that will wrap up the session for tonight -- thanks to everyone for a great TT
<Lucas> This is one of those (possibly the only) things that round-table stories are good for. They can help a person loosen up. You can't possible know what is going to happen next, so either you wack out, or you smooth out some anxiety.
<BarGnat> ah-choooo! yes, indeed, most welcome
<DragonDancer> bless you
<BarGnat> 'night all
<Nathan> Gerzunteit
<James> Good luck with it, Holly!
<BarGnat> thx.
<Holly> Thanks, Sheila, folks.
<Kaelle> Night!
<Nathan> Bye BG
<DragonDancer> good night, BarGnat
<Holly> See you all later.
<CiceroCat> great TT guys, as always
<Dani2> thanks!
<CiceroCat> night all
<Nathan> Bye Kae
<Robert> Night, everyone who's leaving! Happy writing!
<Nathan> Bye Holly
<Anne_Marble2> Night
<Lucas> At two thousand a session, it will be there before you know it Holly.
<DragonDancer> bye, all!
<Nathan> Bye CC
<@SLViehl> Stop by next week if you get a chance, all -- I'll have a transcript up shortly.
<DragonDancer> I'll be in chat later
<Kaelle> Night allQ
<James> I'm only sorry I missed the first half, Sheila, but the second half was worth the trip! Thanks all.
<Kaelle> !
<Robert> I'll do one as soon as it stops scrolling
<@SLViehl> Making it now, so take care and see you around the site -- bye!