Writer's Think Tank #12 -- 04/19/02

<@SLViehl> Yes, please type your name in the little name box to the right, if you would, new people
<@James> We're getting all Walton's Mountain again
<Danielle> hi Fredrick, Talith
<Fredrick> Hello, Danielle
<@SLViehl> Hi Talith
<Robert> Only it's Walton's Mountain if John-Boy bred and none of the rest did! (EG)
<Talith> hiya
<Catherine/splodge> hi Talith
<Catherine/splodge> HI Julia
<Catherine/splodge> and everyone else I missed!
<@James> Oh, I'm sure the others scattered offspring all over the mountain -- two headed things in deep caves, that sort of thing.
<Robert and Ari> There, my favorite coauthor's listed too.
<Danielle> I think I came from teh woodshed
<Robert and Ari> We're not two headed, he's just sitting on my shoulder where he can reach the keyboard.
<@SLViehl> If you haven't been here before, welcome to the Writer's Think Tank. I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl. We'll be getting started in about five minutes.
<Robert and Ari> Sort of like those Heinlein Puppet Masters, but furrier and prettier.
<@James> Sounds like a '50s movie blurb, Danielle -- It Came From the Woodshed And Nothing Can Stop it Now...
<@SLViehl> Good time to get coffee/tea/run to the bathroom/whatever
<Sarah> (checking email) Whoa. I got into Clarion.
<Fredrick> Congrats
<@SLViehl> Yay Sarah!
<Danielle> James> except baklava. I brake for baklava.
<@James> Sarah, Congratulations!
<Catherine/splodge> Yay, Sarah!
<Talith> I might have to leave suddenly - is already 2am, have a lot to do tomorrow...
<Sally> yay Sarah!
<Jinx> Congrats, Sarah! How fun!
<Danielle> congratulations, Sarah! wtg
<@SLViehl> No problem, Talith
<@SLViehl> Welcome, Lelinda
<@James> They never tried baklava in It Came From Outerspace. Maybe they should have
<Melinda> Hey I made it
<@SLViehl> Oops, Melinda
<Julia_Pass> Wow, congrats, Sarah.
<Sarah> Thanks. <g> Now All I have to do is figure out whether or not I'm going to go.
<@SLViehl> Hi Mary
<Danielle> hi Melinda, BG
<@James> Not that Lelinda isn't welcome, too
<Sarah> Hi Melinda! Hi BG!
<BarGnat> Hi, everyone!
<@SLViehl> Actually, Lelinda sounds kind of Jorenian....(scribbling it down for the next book)
<@SLViehl> Welcome Ashtal
<@James> Serendipity, eh?
<Julia_Pass> Hi Ashtal.
<Ashtal> Hi.
<Danielle> hi Ashtal
<Sarah> Hi Ashtal
<@James> Hi everyone I've missed.
<BarGnat> What James said.
<Talith> OK! Mustn't touch the Groupboard buttons!!!!
<@SLViehl> Yes, please don't change the board
<Catherine/splodge> Hi Ashtal
<Danielle> Talith, at least we memorised that ifo from having to come up with it twice
<Robert and Ari> Baklava as a way to distract alien invaders. I like it.
<BarGnat> ::drool::
<Talith> lol - I was sooooo embarresed
<Danielle> Must immobilize with sweet sticky goodness...
<@SLViehl> I've put up how it works, to save you all the usual speech
<Ashtal> I'm mostly here to lurk, get a feel for it. Is that okay?
<Robert and Ari> I'll count that as the first silly answer to my prepared, yet unposted question...
<@James> Get rid of all those movie posters with aliens carrying off Earth's women, swap for aliens carrying off Earth's desserts -- much more logical.
<@SLViehl> You are absolutely allowed to lurk, Ashtal
<Ashtal> Thanks.
<Julia_Pass> Mmmm tiramisu
<Robert and Ari> Ooh hi Ashtal! Yeah, sure! Kibitz and jump in on a later one! Lurking is cool. Ask Blair.
<Sally> I'm just planning to listen, too, my first time in.
<Danielle> Take me to your Strudel
<Robert and Ari> mmm tiramisu and baklava... mew...
<@SLViehl> Danielle, you're making me hungry
<Robert and Ari> Hi Sally!
<Danielle> sorry, just burnt my lunch beyond edibility
<Robert and Ari> While we're at it there's also flan
<Robert and Ari> And Godiva chocolates for anyone who likes those...
<Julia_Pass> I had the weirdest tiramisu at the Cheesecake Factory. It had so much rum in it that I was rather tipsy afterwards. I'm surprised they gave it to a minor.
<@SLViehl> (weeping)
<Danielle> :: waves hands frantically ::
<Catherine/splodge> I loooove triamisu
<BarGnat> <pounce!>
<Robert and Ari> Mmm tiramisu!
<@SLViehl> Catherine will sneak me chocolate, she always shares
<Melinda> Ya'll are making me hungry
<Sarah> Rats, I'm still hungry. <sigh>
<Catherine/splodge> I have chocolate pudding, shiela
<Talith> I got popcorn...
<Catherine/splodge> and strawberry jello for anyone else
<Robert and Ari> Godiva truffles, Sheila...
<@SLViehl> (leaving part of the estate to Catherine in my will)
<Fredrick> I had two big charlies, Monday. Delicious
<Julia_Pass> I got, um, soda.
<Catherine/splodge> <will probably spend it on chocolate>
<Danielle> Fredrick -- say what?
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom/whatever
<Fredrick> Big charlie are long crunchy skin hot dogs topped with chili
<Melinda> I can't read this fast
<Sally> gah. I missed dinner tonight. You people are going to tempt me into eating all my chocolate cookies instead.
<Danielle> ahh, wish I hadn't asked, Fredrick!
<Julia_Pass> I'll skip the charlies.
<@SLViehl> I post a transcript on the Transcript boards, Melinda, in case you miss something
<Fredrick> Bourbon chicken and red beans and rice. Mmmm.
<Jinx> Sally, that's not necessarily a bad thing... <g>
<Julia_Pass> Red beans and rice? MMMMMMMMMMM
<Melinda> i've got chocolate kisses mmm.
<Sally> But I got them for breakfast tommorrow! <g>
<Robert and Ari> Double stuff chocolate filling Oreos
<Fredrick> My sister has these soft pretzels with cheese filling in them. Wonderful.
<Julia Pass> Soft pretzels with cheese? Weird.
<Catherine/splodge> I ate all the chocolate bunnies I ate last week
<Danielle> LOL splodge
<Julia Pass> Sheila, I don't have a question. I'm just here. You can take my name off the roster.
<@James> We're going to have to make the entrance to the Think Tank bigger if this keeps up
<Fredrick> I wonder if some people from the Rumor Mill wouldn't mind stopping by
<@SLViehl> What I do now, Julia, is put everyone's name up, in case minds change -- then when we get to you, just say Pass if you don't have a question.
<Catherine/splodge> Well, CVS were having a sale on easter cnaduy, and I made the mistake of entering the store
<Julia Pass> Okay, then.
<Catherine/splodge> I bought a chocolate easter bunnies for 30-40c a peice
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get this show on the road. Once again, welcome to the Writer's Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<Fredrick> I could go for some Spam
<@SLViehl> Tonight we'll be discussing your writing-related questions and coming up with solutions. Please remember to keep your questions and answers G to PG-13 rated, in case we have some youngsters join us.
<Robert and Ari> Anne will fry you some Spam, Fredrick
<@SLViehl> James, you lucky guy, you're #1 on the list -- got a question for the group?
<@James> Well, writing is going very slowly at the moment, so I might put up for discussion what we were talking about a second ago.
<@SLViehl> Good idea
<@James> Which is, my focus is all out the window at the moment -- I just don't know whether to write short or long (see last week's question) or adult or young adult, or what genre. Totally confused, so all input welcome.
<Robert and Ari> When I lose focus I write short, because any idea I get can be finished on the spot and tossed on the Roughs pile.
<Julia Pass> I agree with Robert.
<BarGnat> Ditto
<@SLViehl> James, are you having too many ideas coming at you at once?
<BarGnat> And don't worry about genre... just write something that sounds like fun
<Danielle> I had a thought about short or long -- try thinking of chapters or scenes in a long project as 'shorts' ie. get a sense of completion when one piece is finished
<Robert and Ari> And then you could try different genres and YA v. adult or whatever, just in small bits and still have something to send out.
<Julia Pass> What are you most comfortable writing genre-wise?
<Sally> I'm in about the same spot you are, James, and I'm doing what they suggested, a couple shorts in different genres.
<Sarah> I go shorter than that. I'll find some new characters and write a scene with them, complete break from my usual universe. Then look at the scene and figure out if its part of a short or a novel.
<@James> I'm not sure they're coming all at once, Sheila, but I do have a backlog of several zillion ideas, worlds, you name it.
<Julia Pass> Try that to see if that doesn't help, and then try branching out. It's what I do so I have a bit of transition between genres.
<@James> Fantasy, Julia, generally, with hideously dark overtones.
<@SLViehl> The thing is to find the one that strikest the strongest cord in you -- the one you want to work on the most.
<Robert and Ari> If you're writing long, a lot of them can just be tossed into the same novel as complications too.
<@SLViehl> And I agree with Robert -- sometimes doing shorts in different genres gives you focus
<Danielle> I found if I broke my long ideas into short pieces, like lego, I felt more confident and focused to get one scene written
<@James> It's silly, because I have a novel idea that's the clear front runner, and have had for some time, but when I work on it, I get itchy fingers, wondering if it could be better, or if something else would be better...
<@SLViehl> You also need to feel enthusiastic versus confused, so selecting and concentrating allows you to examine, try out, and keep or discard an idea
<Julia Pass> Just write. Save the editing for rewrites. That's what they're for.
<@SLViehl> I think everyone feels that way -- don't we, group?
<Joel_A> Made it!
<Sally> If it's too many ideas, you might look at what BBOvenGuy posted on the discussion board yesterday, to narrow it down.
<Robert and Ari> Yes! Get it down first!
<Talith> I am tending to work with a long, and have fun with shorts, so there is always a sense of completion once a week or so...
<@SLViehl> Hiya Joel
<@James> Hi Joel
<Danielle> is it that you need to put everything into that one project? everything you love? so you have to focus more, leave some stuff out?
<Julia Pass> Hi Joel.
<@SLViehl> And welcome Kay
<Joel_A> hi, y'all!
<Danielle> hi Joel + Kay
<Robert and Ari> Question - have you ever done a novel before? Finished one?
<Ashtal> Hi J&K!
<Julia Pass> Hi Kay...didn't see you.
<@James> I get anxious when I do shorts -- I want to end in novels, and I fear I'm wasting time away from my main goal, but when I go long, shorts begin to look attractive because they can be finished so quickly.
<Robert and Ari> Hi J&K! purr
<Joel_A> hi, y'all!
<Fredrick> Could you do shorts that lead into novels?
<Catherine/splodge> Hi Joel and Kay!
<Melinda> hi everyone
<@James> No, Robert -- petered out around chapter four or five each time I've tried, but I was writing well outside my preferred genre then.
<Robert and Ari> Sounds like you're beating yourself. Sheila turns short stories into novels later. She's doing that with one now.
<@SLViehl> Then I'd do scenes from the novels, thinking of them as shorts, but working them together into novel length
<Kay> Hi y'all -- James, I feel the same way a lot, and I'm beginning to think that that's just my private harpy shitting on my work
<Danielle> do you get any sense of satisfaction when you're writing your novel?
<Talith> a novel is a long old haul, especially the first one, so i take a break for a short at least once a week
<Julia Pass> James, nothing you write is wasted. Shorts can be a big help for inspiration and can also become parts of novels later.
<Robert and Ari> Okay, do the novel YOU want most to read.
<@SLViehl> Most of my shorts turn into novels. They're like cockroaches, they breed
<Fredrick> ewww
<Fredrick>
<BarGnat> hehehe
<@James> Hi Kay -- that's just how it feels. Like I really just need to put a bullet in the vulture on my shoulder and *write.*
<Catherine/splodge> Lovely image there, Sheila
<Melinda> I know the feeling
<Catherine/splodge> LOL
<Robert and Ari> Oh wow. Cool! Never thought of it like that.
<Kay> I'm beginning to feel that the only way to deal with that is just to write -- YEAH James -- a SILVER bullet
<@SLViehl> It's true, though -- I don't mean to be overrun by them, and next thing you know . . .
<@James> Not sure I need more cockroaches in my life
<Catherine/splodge> I think maybe being disciplined about sitting down and just writing so many words can get you past the temptation
<Robert and Ari> "I can do that in the NEXT one" is a big part of my affirmations now.
<@SLViehl> Good point, Kay -- sometimes sticking to the daily discipline is the best cure for the "what do I write" blues.
<Fredrick> Do you write 1,000 wrds a day?
<Danielle> yes, Robert, great thought
<Kay> Based on this, James,I'm going to try a short on one of my exciting ideas. If it grows good. IF it doesn't, at least I'll have shown the damn' harpy a thing.
<@SLViehl> Hi cherylp
<Ashtal> I don't know - but: If you get an itchy finger for the one your not working on, why not have two 'streams' on the go. One long, and several shorts. When you get stiff on one, you can jump to the other stream, and back again.
<@James> Oh, Fredrick, not even on my good days: I'm slow! 600 per day is my usual goal, and lately I've not been even close.
<Ashtal> Granted, that would take longer.
<@SLViehl> And heya BJ
<Julia Pass> Hi Cheryl.
<Robert and Ari> James, try the next Extreme Writing Marathon too. That helped me realize a novel CAN come out that fast.
<Catherine/splodge> Hi Cheryl!
<Ashtal> Hi Cheryl&BJ!
<cherylp> Hi, everyone.
<BJ Steeves> Evening All!
<Julia Pass> And BJ.
<Sarah> I've listened to the same CD so often when I write that it's programmed me. I put it on now and end up sitting down and typing whether I mean to or not.
<Danielle> hi BJ, Cheryl
<Fredrick> Still 500 words times 365 days is a lot of words.
<@James> That's kind of how I go these days, Ashtal, but I feel I'm wanting to settle down.
<@SLViehl> nice suggestion, Sarah -- music helps a lot
<Robert and Ari> It sure is and if you get to 500 words an hour, marathons are sticking for a lot of hours.
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, Sarah, thanks. I'm doing that with "Quest"
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for James?
<Danielle> thanks, this is a useful question!
<Fredrick> First drafts don't have to be perfect. They just have to be done.
<Kay> Write. I'm with you, guy. I'll be doing it, too!
<Robert and Ari> Set a daily novel quota like 500 words and then if you want to do more, do a story.
<Julia Pass> Write what you want when you want to.
<Julia Pass> Within reason, of course.
<@SLViehl> I'd pick on novel idea -- the best of the bunch -- and set daily goals. Try to meet them if you can. Ignore everything else.
<@SLViehl> on=one
<@James> Reading everyone's thoughts, I think I really do need to make a choice, and apply it with some discipline. Should be easy
<Jinx> And keep that internal editor quite .. perhaps with chocolate, or something.
<Danielle> oh yeah, writing is easy
<Robert and Ari> Writing every day is the biggest choice, eventually you get used to it and it's "choice of that day"
<Jinx> er, quiet <g>
<@SLViehl> thanks to all for some great ideas -- Robert, you're up, then Danielle will be after you.
<Robert and Ari> I'm on version 3 of Chapter 19 of "Quest" and I'd like help thinking of a nice "first of a trilogy" ending that lets me save blowing up evil castle Karactis for end of trilogy. Blade won't die doing it because of the romance plot, but he'll be hurting and he'll think he will. Ysildre will save him by calling back his soul from the Abyss.
<@James> Thanks all -- I found that useful.
<Robert and Ari> "Quest" will probably have 21 chapters or 21 and an epilogue that's shorter.
<@SLViehl> Can Karactis shift location or form, Robert?
<Kay> Sheila, you are EEEEVIL!
<Robert and Ari> I want to save "Karactis flies" for right near the "Karactis go boom boom" point and it already changed forms from small keep to big castle.
<Talith> is it sentient?
<@SLViehl> (prim smile) thank you, Kay
<Julia Pass> What are his/her/its special powers? Specifically. How can it protect itself?
<Danielle> Is the union between Karactis and its mate successful in the terms you've previously described?
<Robert and Ari> It tried forming a projection of a woman to seduce Blade away from the good guys and did NOT know how to act in drag, poor thing.
<Fredrick> Maybe the old switcheroo. Replace Karactis with a false double?
<@SLViehl> good thought, Fredrick
<Robert and Ari> It's very sentient. It's the Dark Lord in that particular world specific War of Good and Evil
<Sally> Would you be able to just make the destruction of its current pet into a satisfactory ending?
<@SLViehl> Maybe Karactis makes a golem of itself -- as Fredrick says, as a distraction
<Robert and Ari> It is and Blade might live through that but only if Ysildre gets his soul back, otherwise soulless mortal body in coma.
<@SLViehl> You could demolish the castle and have it rebuild itself, stone by stone
<Danielle> Could it come back as one of its own children?
<Robert and Ari> Oooh, hadn't thought of conventional explosives! Cool!
<@James> Could the sentience move to another castle/building temporarily, ordering itself rebuilt in book two?
<@SLViehl> or have it appear ruined, ala the Death Star
<Julia Pass> Ooh. I like that, Sheila. Creepy. Could it work, Robert?
<Talith> or have someone rescue it's soul before the destruction, to rise once more
<Kay> Following out her evilness, Karactis could do a tai chi type move in response to the attack that knocks the hero into the abyss, and make it self LOOOK like something harmless or look ruined or look not there.
<@SLViehl> I flashed on Stephen King's Cristine car, banging out its own dents . . .
<Robert and Ari> I have a big army lined up in Gerlenna and want Gerlenna a lot more powerful with Karactis in book2
<Robert and Ari> Oooh too neat!
<Robert and Ari> Like, they try that and it fails
<Talith> readers may feel cheated tho, if you do that...
<@SLViehl> Because you have an entity that's architecture, none of the normal bio rules apply, right?
<Robert and Ari> Actually if it does survive that means the consummation wasn't complete enough. It's survived raping smaller members of its kind.
<Jinx> Does it have the ability to hide itself?
<cherylp> What's the first thing you do to a "dangerous" building? You isolate it.
<Danielle> could someone evil rebuild it? or does it rebuild itself? are its structural plans evil?
<Robert and Ari> It accretes them as if it were a young one.
<@SLViehl> Someone rebuild it -- cool, Danielle
<cherylp> Then perhaps it finds someone it can use.
<Julia Pass> If it can change itself into a big castle from a small keep, could it change itself into, say, a small stone and then make someone carry it around?
<Robert and Ari> You're saying do the centuries jump between volumes and let the big blast happen NOW.
<Kay> It's attractive -- it sends out vibes -- it has its plans. an archeologist finds it, starts a dig reconstructis it and is taken over by it
<Danielle> Julia> yeah, like a souvenir
<cherylp> I got this picture, Robert, of a huge ditch dug around your building and nothing living near it.
<Robert and Ari> I flashed on what I'd do with the romance plot in that case. End on a minstrel's song of an ageless sorceress seeking ONE stone that has the soul of her true love to reforge Perilous Blade.
<@SLViehl> the first big blast, anyway -- weren't you going to have breeding be the ultimate destruction, Robert?
<Robert and Ari> Stick the dude into magical coma. For centuries.
<@SLViehl> Key stone
<Sarah> What happens if bits of it are used to build/repair other castles scattered across the land?
<Danielle> someone takes a stone from the rubble
<BarGnat> You can always do the big blast and have a short epilogue where Karactis begins to rebuild himself with a small piece of stone that's left.
<@SLViehl> Robert, if you remove the key stone, the building collapses
<Robert and Ari> It's been doing that to infiltrate most of the region and most of its extensions got destroyed. It pulled back and built itself big. Oooh key stone. Wow. Yeah.
<@James> Or, Sarah, bits used to build buildings in one city -- next volume Karactis is the entire city.
<BarGnat> Still have the sense of completion when the MC is saved from the Abyss
<Kay> Right, all buildings have keystones! And i like the epilog thing from BG
<Danielle> ah, the whole city, cool!
<@SLViehl> It could be the equivalent of a heart
<BJ Steeves> Robert, it sounds like that your castle's mortar is a little cracked!
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<cherylp> hehehe
<Fredrick> Is Karactis like a starfish? You cut her into pieces and each one regenerates into a new being.
<@SLViehl> I like the keystone idea, and Fredrick's switcheroo, either would work really well
<Danielle> cut off a tail, two tails grow back
<Fredrick> Or the hydra
<BJ Steeves> That's one way to add on an addition!
<Robert and Ari> Yes and they will also conjugate while breeding. Blade has a lot of ghosts haunting him and a lot of precious gems, so the offspring, he could conjugate in that form. Like paramecia. The ghosts reborn as little Karactises - not all of them evil.
<@SLViehl> Imagine getting permits on this world....(shudder)
<Danielle> LOL
<cherylp> <giggle>
<Julia Pass> lol
<Ashtal> hee!
<Catherine/splodge> lol
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for some excellent construction/destruction ideas -- Danielle, have you got a question for the group?
<Robert and Ari> Subsentient spawn of them actually make good magical stones.
<Danielle> yes, here goes
<Danielle> Sometimes it seems that the most common way to show up your villain is by making them kill or maim someone, a minion or innocent passer-by. Has anyone got any other suggestions for showing (not telling) that your villain is Bad, capital B?
<Fredrick> Ever read Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House?
<Danielle> yes, many times
<Fredrick> That had an interesting evil place.
<Robert and Ari> I had the sorceror Taheidir abuse a child for years in a closet just to use him as a sacrifice and that wasn't the worst sacrifice, he killed his own guardian spirit as the final one.
<@SLViehl> Cruelty is sometimes more telling that outright violence. Think cat with a mouse
<Catherine/splodge> The secret is to show they are utterly selfish
<Fredrick> But does the cat think it cruel?
<Robert and Ari> Cruelty to animals. I know that's trite but it hits in the gut.
<cherylp> Yeah, Danielle, have them do mean-spirited things but not necessarily illegal things.
<Catherine/splodge> their own pleasure is worth any amount of suffering to others
<Robert and Ari> I mean human style. Like burning wings off flies or torturing lab mice for FUN, show the sadism.
<@SLViehl> Cats are natural predators, and they take pleasure in stalking -- doesn't make them evil, but it is kind of horrifying to watch
<Sarah> Have them witness some kind of torment and not react to it.
<James> You can have them fail completely to understand the pain in someone else's life (making it plain that they're sociopathic).
<Sally> Show emotional cruelty to minions and prisoners, lying and betraying them for fun
<Fredrick> You have to be careful, though. Too much meanness can make a villain into a caricature.
<James> Oops, snap Sarah
<Robert and Ari> or they understand it and like causing it. Gratuitous small cruelties.
<Fredrick> Except maybe like Count Rugen in The Princess Bride.
<Joel_A> Have the MC's paramour fall in love with the Big villain
<@SLViehl> Vanity is always a bad sign to me.
<Danielle> oh Joel, nice!
<Kay> They reprimand a subordinate for showing compassion
<BarGnat> Have the villain keep a scrapbook of clippings/photos/etc. of all the really evil things that show up in newspapers...e.g., that skinned puppy just recently
<Sarah> Someone threatens to kill a relative if the villain doesn't cooperate, and the villain walks away....
<Joel_A> Test 123
<Danielle> if I'm quiet, I'm just admiring the general nastiness, this is great!
<@SLViehl> we see you, Joel
<Robert and Ari> Vengefulness, extreme vengeance on petty irritations (something most of us would like to do, larger than life, blow away stupid clerk)
<Jinx> The villian could just be, say.. greedy. But it's what he does for that greed that will show the type of person he is. Or can become.
<@SLViehl> We're all very twisted, Danielle.
<Julia Pass> To prevent meanness from getting too much like a caricature can be prevented by making sure that the reader can still identify with them. Mine are homicidal maniacs, but they've got qualities that most people can identify with.
<Melinda> Greed is also a good way to show the nastiness in someone
<@SLViehl> Miserly ways -- penny pinching -- I hate that
<Robert and Ari> Villains can overreact and kidnap and torture that second grade teacher that marked them down.
<Talith> have him / her laugh when their lover dies
<Fredrick> Louie de Palma from Taxi was a great antagonist.
<Robert and Ari> Have them enjoy it erotically when lover dies.
<Fredrick> He was evil, yet he had a heart.
<Catherine/splodge> Often evil characters are idealogues - who honesrtly care about an idea so much they will pursue it at any cost
<Fredrick> Some episodes showed him as human.
<Sally> Ignoring pleas for mercy or help
<Julia Pass> Ewwwww, Robert. <shudder>
<@SLViehl> Ambition -- ruthless is always good
<James> My favourite villain quality (i.e I use this as a criterion in real life) is total lack of humour, particularly where they're concerned.
<Fredrick> Sometimes protagonists can be ruthless.
<@SLViehl> good one, James
<Kay> Very gently, in a "you know better than to mess with the bottom line, John" they demote someone who makes a long term investment that might not pay off
<Robert and Ari> Hey, thrill killers are stock in trade and that as a minor quality in a villain where like a ROman emperor he can get away with it, really establishes evil.
<cherylp> Sometimes its just the sheer fact that anyone not connected to them is not worth their time.
<Fredrick> Caligula?
<Danielle> oh, this is so good! plenty of excellent ideas to run with, I knew I could rely on your innate twistedness!
<James> Oh, and certainty. I think a lot of evil begins in certainty. If you can't see there are alternatives to the way you see things, you're on the road to evil, in my opinion.
<Robert and Ari> Villains can overreact and get away with it. If the gas staion guy gives them trouble, the Mob shows up to blow up the gas station on his watch.
<@SLViehl> Or quiet menace -- a villain who stands over a baby's crib, staring down at it while caressing a small pillow -- but actually does no harm.
<Melinda> Henry the VIII
<Fredrick> Sometimes I think readers will forgive a character for anything as long as he or she is charming.
<cherylp> You know how we can ignore the troubles of people half the world away? It's not that we don't care, it's that they don't impact our lives.
<Robert and Ari> Even kindness can be creepy. Giving a tip to the palace torturer for a really good show and patting him on the back is scary!
<cherylp> These people mean nothing to your villain.
<Fredrick> Case in point. I had a protagonist in a recent story named Melina Fairwald who was arrogant to the nth degree and practically everyone hated her.
<Danielle> feel free to stop anytime, I think I already have enough ideas to fuel villains for an open-ended series
<Robert and Ari> Then there's the Control Freak. Villain Knows Best - not just ideologue but how you should wear your hair.
<@SLViehl> Or kindness used to cultivate lackeys -- another twist on yours, Robert
<Melinda> Showing any of the seven sins would work
<Fredrick> What about gluttony?
<Robert and Ari> Being kind to lackeys makes sense too. I like smart villains.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Danielle?
<Robert and Ari> Petting the dog while torturing the human is a nice contrast.
<Robert and Ari> Blofeld's Cat
<Fredrick> Dr. Evil
<Melinda> Psychological torture vs. physical
<Danielle> thanks, this is excellent mulch for some nasty toadstools
<@SLViehl> Another nice idea, Robert -- contrasting the evil with a small act of kindness or decency
<Talith> remember - as heroes must have traits, villains must have something to like about them...
<James> Eating the dog while torturing the human is eviller
<Robert and Ari> Feeding the pampered dog on victims is another good one - and then really enraged when the killer dog's killed.
<Fredrick> Give a piece of candy to a child before you shoot his parents.
<@SLViehl> You're evil, James
<Melinda> ewwww
<@SLViehl> And so are you, Fredrick
<Robert and Ari> So's Fredrick. <G>
<cherylp> Okay, James, that's just wrong! <g>
<Catherine/splodge> LOL
<James> Only on alternate Fridays, Sheila
<BarGnat> Remember the great contrast for the villain in Silence of the Lambs?
<Catherine/splodge> Ask Damon about eating Dog
<Fredrick> Or give the child a piece of candy if he agrees to shoot his parents. That's worse!
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks all you sick people for some wonderful villainous acts -- Julia, do you have a question for the group?
<Julia Pass> Yes, I do, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Hit us with it.
<Kay> Julia types furiously
<Joel_A> back
<Danielle> wb Joel
<Joel_A> there was a connectivity problem
<Julia Pass> I'm currently in the middle of rewrites, and I was wondering a) ways that actually work and b) how to keep the plot remotely consistent with the other plot because only 5k in the plot has completely changed.
>James< Are you having problems staying with us?
<Julia Pass> wb Joel
<Fredrick> How so, Julia?
<Joel_A> thanks, y'all
<cherylp> BRB
James I've dropped out once so far -- fingers crossed I last til the end
<Robert and Ari> Write one of Holly's scene by scene one sentence descriptions of scenes for the rewrite pass
<@SLViehl> Are you looking for ways to control changes, Julia, or make them? Or both?
<Julia Pass> A good character is now completely evil, an evil character is now completely good, and the entire plot's just getting all messed up.
<Talith> i gtg to bed - cya'll - s'been interesting
<Julia Pass> Control them, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Night Talith
<Julia Pass> Bye Talith.
<James> See you, Talith
<BarGnat> night, Talith
<Jinx> Night, Talith
<Fredrick> Good night, Talith
<Ashtal> Bye.
<@SLViehl> It
<Kay> sleep well talith
<Catherine/splodge> bye Talith
<Anon_40> bye Talith
<@SLViehl> It's one of those painstaking pains of rewriting, but this is how I do it:
<Joel_A> night, Talith
<Catherine/splodge> Hmmmm. <immense sympathy fo Julia>
<@SLViehl> I keep a running list, usually by character name, next to the keyboard, with short notes on the major changes.
<Catherine/splodge> Do you like the changes?
<Joel_A> test123
<Robert and Ari> See you Joel
<Julia Pass> I like the good character turned evil, but I really needed that other bad guy to stay bad.
<@SLViehl> Then I check the list before I rewrite a chapter, and make notes throughout.
<Fredrick> Why does he need to stay bad?
<Robert and Ari> Use another color of pen for the second round of changes to keep from getting mixed up
<@SLViehl> It sounds like you're fighting the changes -- are they really working for you?
<cherylp> Back
<BarGnat> wb
<Catherine/splodge> When rewriting, make a new word document - keep your drafts!
<@SLViehl> Amen, Catherine
<James> Can his change to good be only partial? He's acquired a desire for decency, for example, but doesn't quite understand mercy?
<Robert and Ari> Can he backslide? Change and then backslide?
<Julia Pass> He needs to stay bad because his girlfriend needs to die by the end of this book, and she can't do that if he's good.
<Joel_A> test123
<Joel_A> good. i'm still here.
<Robert and Ari> Really more chilling if they reform and then lose that.
<Fredrick> Can't he? Good people sometimes do terrible things despite their nature.
<Julia Pass> And, Sheila, on the whole they're not working for me. The good character turned evil is the only thing I like.
<Kay> Pardon me, but why not? I mean bad things DO happen to good people.
<James> Could his girlfriend die despite his being good, because he make a mistake rooted in his inexperience at being good?
<Fredrick> Maybe his goodness is what causes her death. He didn't act in time.
<Ashtal> Or that the thing that causes her death was an action he took before he changed.
<Jinx> Or he already set in motion her death before he became good?
<@SLViehl> Then hang on, you need to give these changes a really hard look, Julia. That's your writer instinct, bucking at making them.
<Julia Pass> The bad guy turning good is a demon. She needs to die because of her association with him.
<Kay> why?
<Fredrick> Was he always a demon?
<Anon_40> Or maybe he wavered at the last moment and couldn't decide to save her
<Robert and Ari> Ooh I like a demon turning good.
<Ashtal> Well, a demon turns good, still loses the girl, and goes right back to Big Bad.
<Danielle> Julia, isn't that good drama for him?
<Kay> Why does she have to die?
<@SLViehl> What if she dies trying to save the demon guy, or protecting him in another way?
<Robert and Ari> Can't evil people kill her and make it tragic? Then show his struggle to remain good without a girlfriend to motivate him?
<@SLViehl> Good point, Ashtal
<cherylp> I'm skeptical, but that's just me. I usually think of a demon as what someone's become rather than what they are. There would be a lot of terrible history in a demon's past.
<Julia Pass> The demon doesn't need saving. Hell is one of the safest places in this world to be. And the only ones who can kill her are the gods, who made her immortal.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Julia?
<Julia Pass> The girlfriend, I mean.
<Ashtal> Perhaps her death expells him from Hell?
<Kay> Trust your gut, Julia
<Robert and Ari> Then a god does something nasty if he kills her after that because she associated with a demon.
<James> What Kay said.
<@SLViehl> If your instincts are telling you the rewrite isn't working, scrap it and start over. Identify what's wrong with it and concentrate on those areas.
<Kay> what Sheila said!
<@SLViehl> lol
<Julia Pass> Okay, thanks everyone.
<cherylp> What everybody said.
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for some great ideas. Sarah, have you got a question for us tonight?
<Danielle> lol
<Kay> couldn't help myself -- too easy
<cherylp> Sorry, couldn't resist.
<Sarah> Nope. Pass.
<James> If I say "what Kay said" again, do we get an infinite loop?
<@SLViehl> Sally, how about you? Got a question for us?
<Danielle> break! BREAK!
<@SLViehl> no, you get smacked, James
<James> Ouch. Rubs cheek.
<Sally> Yes, I came up with one, just a second.
<@SLViehl> We break at 10pm, Danielle
<Sally> Okay, I need to pick a POV for my current short story, which only has two characters.
<@SLViehl> but go ahead if you need to
<Danielle> no, I was trying to break the loop
<@SLViehl> oops, silly me
<@SLViehl> SF, Fantasy, or other, Sally?
<Robert and Ari> Who are they and what happens?
<Sally> Summary: Two mages, suddenly trapped together, were lovers before she turned to the Dark years ago. She's trying to escape, he's trying to convert her to Good and win her heart back.
<Robert and Ari> Show it from her point of view.
<@SLViehl> Third person, both characters POV alternating would be my pick
<Sarah> Why can't you use... oh, what Sheila said.
<cherylp> Depends on the "moral" of the story, Sally.
<Fredrick> What about telepathy?
<Fredrick> Saves a POV
<@SLViehl> (admiring Fredrick) You always come up with such ringers
<cherylp> Theme would be a better word.
<Sally> I'm afraid switching will be too much in a story this short . ..
<Robert and Ari> Third person omniscient. You can show the magic's actions too that way.
<cherylp> If the point is saving her, then his POV.
<@SLViehl> Then I'd go with the POV of the person who is most clueless. They're more fun
<Robert and Ari> Telepathy I have to stay closer to POV believe it or not - even if it doesn't seem that way.
<cherylp> If the point is she's really good underneath, then hers.
<Fredrick> From James Blish: "Who hurts the most?"
<Ashtal> I think you should pick the one that will 'lose' in the story.
<Sally> Theme is basically learning to cooperate
<cherylp> Gut feeling? I'd go with hers.
<Catherine/splodge> I'd choose the woman. The conflict is hers, internally
<Robert and Ari> Her personal growth is interesting.
<Danielle> hers has more potential drama
<@SLViehl> I always like the grouchiest characters. They're more fun to write, too.
<Fredrick> Whoever hurts the most is the one you should focus the story on, or whoever has the most to lose.
<James> Omniscient first person -- possibly in a fairy tale kind of way (i.e. the teller of the story is a clear third character, though he/she doesn't participate or exist inside the tale).
<@SLViehl> neat, James. Don't see that very often
<cherylp> That's kinda distancing, James.
<Danielle> is she trying to convert him back?
<Anon_40> I like that because you see everyone's growth/pain
<Sally> Hmm, the telepathy/omniscient sound cool, but I doubt I could pull it off at this point.
<Robert and Ari> Oh you could have the twist revealed at the end by narrator "and that's how my parents married"
<Sally> Danielle, she basically just wants him to stop stalking her.
<@SLViehl> Like the Princess Bride. Grandpa tells the story to his sick grandson, yet you could get into the characters
<Fredrick> I think third person limited, his POV is the best way to go.
<cherylp> LOL, Sally.
<Danielle> who changes the most from start to finish?
<Sarah> Or Jim Henson's The Storyteller. Great series.
<Catherine/splodge> My opinion...is that the woman's POV is the most interesting
<Catherine/splodge> If she is going to change
<James> It can be distancing -- but if you're tale teller's "voice" is strong enough, it can still work. Also allows you to have the tale teller relate to the reader elements of the relationship the lovers themselves aren't aware of.
<Robert and Ari> Amusing if she reforms and doesn't go out with him!
<Sally> I think she's most dynamic, but neither of them actually converts.
<Fredrick> But she is evil, the antagonist. He has more to lose.
<Danielle> go with her!
<Julia Pass> I'd probably be more interested in seeing this from the guy's perspective, personally. Third person limited is what I'd do.
<Anon_40> Interesting twist if they convert eachother and are in reversed positions
<Fredrick> What about a third character?
<Fredrick> A father, a mother, a sister?
<Joel_A> back
<cherylp> Again, I think it relates back to your theme.
<Sarah> Can you write it twice and then pick which POV reads better?
<Fredrick> Someone who has a vested interest in seeing them get together.
<@SLViehl> Joel is popping up like toast tonight
<James> Her unborn child to him -- that won't exist if he doesn't win her over, Wizardly women getting pregnant in four dimensions
<Sally> Third character wouldn't work with plot. Sarah, that's basically what I'm doing as I write the rough!
<Joel_A> don't spread jam on me, sheila
<Sally> James, that's in the novel sit in the same universe. <g>
<@SLViehl> I'll try to restrain myself, Joel.
<Joel_A> LOL, sheila
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Sally?
<cherylp> Don't get burned, Joel.
<James> I eagerly await it, Sally
<Joel_A> ouch!
<Fredrick> How do wizards pay child support?
<Izunya> I'll try not to make any comments about buttered Joel.
<Catherine/splodge> ow ow <puts hands over ears at awful jokes>
<@SLViehl> I like alternating, contrasting POVs, but if you have to pick one, I'd say the woman. She sounds cool.
<Robert and Ari> Fairy gold, which annoys judges no end
<cherylp> A spell a birthday, Frederick.
<Joel_A> oh, boo, Izun
<Fredrick> Is that tax deductible?
<@SLViehl> Hi Izunya
<Izunya> Hello.
<cherylp> Nobody cares, Frederick! <grin>
<Catherine/splodge> Yep, his Izunya
<Ashtal> Hi Iz&Ka!
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for some great suggestions. We're going to take a five minute break now
<Fredrick> I do think the man is better because he has not turned to the dark yet.
<Sally> Cool. This has really helped.
<Kaelle_> Arrrggghhh!!!
<@SLViehl> Time to run for the tea kettle, brb
<James> Excellent. Need More Caffeine...
<@SLViehl> Hiya Kaelle
<Catherine/splodge> hmmmm. Chocolate break...heheh
<Kaelle_> Hi everyone!
<BarGnat> How many total words do you expect the story to run, Sally?
<Izunya> Since I'm actually (more or less) gainfully employed now, it seems like forever since I've been to one of these.
<cherylp> You can't write this, Frederick. Anybody who thinks of the IRS....well, I'm just telling you.
<Kaelle_> Finally!!!!!
<Robert and Ari> Since he's stalking though, there might be ambiguity about what's evil.
<Julia Pass> I'd like to see the man personally because I always seem to identify more with evil characters and I'd like to be able to see both sides in a story like this.
<Danielle> hi Kaelle
<Joel_A> hi, kae
<Julia Pass> Hi Kaelle.
<Ashtal> Yeah, I'm a little wigged on the stalking angle. Puts me in the woman's camp now.
<Catherine/splodge> Hi Kaelle
<Sally> Robert, that's a running theme in this universe. The "good" and "evil" are treated more like political parties.
<Izunya> H'lo, Kaelle.
<cherylp> Good evening, Kaelle.
<Kaelle_> I have been trying for an hour and a half to get in here <puff, puff>
<Sally> Story should run around 7000.
<@SLViehl> back -- opening my fortune cookie -- ack, computer problems, Kae?
<Sally> Hello, Kaelle!
<Danielle> yay, you're here!
<Kaelle_> Server connections!
<Robert and Ari> Her POV would show more of that yin yang flavor. POV char always more sympathetic, well usually.
<Izunya> In universes where Good and Evil work that way, I almost always find myself rooting for at least a few of the baddies.
<Julia Pass> Tonight my fortune cookie said "A nice cake is waiting for you."
<Danielle> .
<Kaelle_> lol Julia
<Izunya> It's called Burned Out on Dungeons and Dragons, or BODD.
<@SLViehl> Fortune reads: Fortune truly helps those who are of good judgement." (tossing out the fortune) Well, that's not me.
<BarGnat> That's long enough for third limited... and if you use Anon40's idea of having them both convert at the end so they're still on opposite sides, you've got a great O.Henry type twist to end the story
<Jinx> .
<Robert and Ari> Two cop cars outside my building lights flashing many cops in street
<cherylp> Fortune cookies have writing in them?
<@SLViehl> Where do you get your Chinese food, Julia? I wanna go there!
<Sally> lol, cheryl.
<Anon_40> Just got kiddies to bed, yea!
<Jinx> Oh, good. I'm still here. Sometimes I'm not so sure. ;-p
<Robert and Ari> Sheiala a friend told me the secret to making any cookie fortune come true. Add "in bed"
<cherylp> I guess that accounts for that slightly papery taste.
<BJ Steeves> Robert, what did you do now?
<Sarah> Ice cream... yum...
<@SLViehl> Not if I'm really hungry, cherylp
<Kay> what's the scoop robert? are you safe? gunshots? shouting?
<Julia Pass> Peking Delight. <g> It's in Burtonsville, Maryland.
<Kaelle_> lol cheryl
<Izunya> Cheryl: "I just got a secret message--from my teeth!" </Tick mode>
<Ashtal> Hee!
<Julia Pass> lol
<@SLViehl> I don't want to disturb all the cats, Robert. lol
<Anon_40> I need to get here sooner next week
<@SLViehl> Anons, sign in for us in the little name box up there if you would.
<Sarah> My favourite forturne ever was "Because of your melodic nature, the moonlight never misses an appointment".
<@SLViehl> oooh, nice, Sarah
<Robert and Ari> They're standing by this car down at the bottom of the hill.
<Dani> sorry, that's me, got bumped
<@SLViehl> (kicking Cato)
<cherylp> Robert, you couldn't possibly be rubbernecking, could you?
<Izunya> I always get slightly ambigious fortunes. "You are your own wisest counsellor." Yes, but that may not be saying much . . .
<Sarah> I have yet to figure out what it means, but it was cool (it's taped to my monitor)
<Kaelle_> Oops, sorry if I brought the internet jinx with me.
<@SLViehl> Nope, that's our Jinx
<@SLViehl> lol
<Julia Pass> "Be prepared for the truth" I got once, and another time I got "Your skill will accomplish what the force of many cannot."
<Jinx> <g>
<Anon_40> It rubbed off on me too
<@SLViehl> brb, kettle is whistling
<Kay> I'll be "passing" on my turn Sheila, so don't plan on time for me.
<Robert and Ari> No, just peering through curtain to see if they come up. Cops are scary.
<@SLViehl> No problem, Kay
<@SLViehl> brb
<Dani> don't get fortune cookies here
<Anon_40> Test 123
<Julia Pass> That's horrible, Dani.
<Dani> we make our own up!
<cherylp> Don't get cheeky with them, Robert. They might blackjack first, ask questions later.
<Izunya> Anon 40: You show up, but you don't have a name.
<Anon_40> ok I'm annonomous, It's me Melinda
<Dani> hi Melinda!
<Kay> concentrating on car at bottom of street sounds relatively okay Robert
<Kaelle_> One place I went to in St Petersburg Fl, had chocolate, orange and vanilla flavored fortune cookies. Not bad
<Izunya> Hi, Melinda.
<Fredrick> Sometimes I seem to get defective fortunes or half-true ones.
<Dani> wow, Kaelle
<Julia Pass> I've had those before. They're so weird.
<Fredrick> Perhaps I should sue.
<James> Somewhere there is Dani's cookie: You Will Never See This Fortune...
<@SLViehl> Mine are kind of lemony tasting. Animal cracker/fortune cookies
<Sally> I've had chocolate. It's pretty good.
<Julia Pass> The different flavored ones, I mean.
<Dani> hey, someone else got my future!!
<Fredrick> Yuck.
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages, bathroom, whatever
<Izunya> I thought the lemony sort was all there was. Waah. Deprived.
<Fredrick> Maybe they should put fortune's in the Sesame chicken.
<@SLViehl> I get mine from the Chinese market. The box isn't even in English. These could really be like dried octupi flavored and I wouldn't know it.
<James> Oh no, my responses have slowed down again -- so I'm suddenly going to stop making sense. Even more than usual, I mean...
<Dani> McFortunes?
<Kaelle_> Yum, Sesame chicken.
<Joel_A> I've updated the groupboard by crossing out those names of people who have already spoken. how do I make sure everyone else sees it?
<Fredrick> Big Maxim
<Kaelle_> lol Sheila
<Sarah> Ooh, man, I jjust found my next writing CD...
<cherylp> Ewww. Pox on Sesame Chicken. Hate it! Ptuii!
<Dani> lol Fredrick
<@SLViehl> Everyone can see it, I think, Joel
<cherylp> We can see it, Joel.
<Dani> Sarah, what is it?
<James> If there's pox on your sesame chicken, no wonder you didn't enjoy it...
<Joel_A> wow. it's automatic. coolness!
<Izunya> I can see it. We're at seven, on my screen.
<@SLViehl> All right, troops, time to move on.
<@SLViehl> Catherine, got a question for us tonight?
<Sarah> Dani> E.S. Posthumus - Unearthed
<Catherine/splodge> erm, no thanks, I'll pass
<@SLViehl> Jinx, how about you?
<Jinx> Pass, please.
<@SLViehl> Fredrick, you're up then.
<Fredrick> All right, a moment.
<cherylp> NOW, Frederick! <g>
<@SLViehl> lol cherylp
<Kay> (Frederick types furiously, trying to catch up with all the passes)
<Fredrick> I had an idea about a form of sentient, gender-restrictive hyperspace.
<Fredrick> In other words, it only allows one gender to pass through.
<James> Oh, interesting!
<cherylp> I like you, Frederick. You're such a card! <grin>
<@SLViehl> Can I send my ex there?
<cherylp> LOL.
<Kay> Lots of excellent examples in realspace
<Robert and Ari> Interesting. Does it come in two or more varieties leaving them going to different destinations?
<Dani> which gender?? this is important
< Melinda> interesting, what happens to alternate sex
<cherylp> What if it only allows females, Sheila?
<Izunya> Sheila: that's only useful if it's one-way.
<Joel_A> Hmmm. sounds like Macy's during a major sale. Or Superbowl sunday
<Fredrick> So, which should it be? Male, female, andro or transsexual. And furthermore, why does this space restrict gender? Is it artificial? Ideas please.
<Robert and Ari> And if a woman's pregnant with a male fetus will she get effects or lose her baby?
<Dani> is the story set in the hyperspace, or outside?
<cherylp> Oh, artificial, my dear sir.
<Jinx> It might not be the space itself, but the portals to it?
<Fredrick> En route through gynospace
<cherylp> I'm thinking a species with a terrible sense of humor.
< Melinda> Ancient semi-sentient being once used for a wierd form of population control
<Sally> Is it voluntary, a power the gender has, or something the hyperspace controls?
<Kay> It's like Vjur- it only allows in people of the gender it would like to mate with because it wants to mate
<@SLViehl> Hyperspace being pretty much anything you want it to be, I'd go for hormonal differences.
<Julia Pass> Maybe some man-or-woman-hating person set it up so he/she could have some peace and quiet.
<BarGnat> Is it controlled by a misogynist?
<Dani> extreme segregation
<Robert and Ari> Okay, so women can travel so all colonization being by women who then carry sperm samples.
<James> Gynospace? Vision of God asking the cosmos to put its feet in the stirrups...
<Fredrick> Allergic to the y chromosome?
<@SLViehl> Chromosomes are good.
<Ashtal> .
<Robert and Ari> Could change women's economic positions mightily.
<Sarah> If it fixes on chromosomes to allow passage, it'd explain most gender specificity.
<Joel_A> I'd go with the genetics.
<Fredrick> Or maybe it taxes genders.
<Izunya> Hmm. And what happens to transsexuals?
<Fredrick> They slip into comas.
<Kay> depends, Frederick -- if it's female hetero, it wants men.
<Dani> is gender biological?
< Melinda> vaporization?
<Fredrick> Men die.
<James> Perhaps it previously allowed a particular gender to pass freely through it, and they committed terrible acts of evil. It won't allow that to happen again.
<Robert and Ari> Does sexual preference affect it at all? Do bi or gay women have problems?
<Kay> If it's male hetero, it's trying to assemble a harem
<Fredrick> No, it's gender. Not sex orientation.
< Melinda> Guarding the Garden of Eden maybe
<Fredrick> It's not religious.
<@SLViehl> It strikes me as something artificial -- all life being biogenetic, why would it bar one gender?
<Joel_A> And what about homosexual men? There are marked differences enough to create a virus to kill all heterosexual men but leave straight women and gay men alive
<Dani> but is gender biological?
<Ashtal> Nuts...missed a bunch.
<@SLViehl> Unless it was on purpose
<Fredrick> That's what I need a reason for?
<Joel_A> got it, fred.
<Fredrick> Why would it bar men?
<Sarah> Generally, "sex" refers to biology, "gender" refers to identity.
<Dani> sarah, that's what I thought
<Fredrick> Some men try to pass through with sex changes, but the wormhole nails them everytime.
<Robert and Ari> If gay women go through as easily as straight it wants settlements that are woman dominated and possibly less expansionist.
<Izunya> Set up as an ancient defense system. Race Y wanted to exterminate race X, and race X was powerful enough to mess with hyperspace. Unfortunately, human males share the same brain patterns as Race Y . . .
<James> Perhaps an all male research team once nearly destroyed it, certainly hurt it, trying to work out what it was.
<Joel_A> maybe it looks like it it's barring men but the hyperspace was originally created for another purpose
<Fredrick> You mean kill all the y chromosomes?
<Dani> so 'it' is definitely sentient and making that choice for some reason?
<@SLViehl> It almost sounds like a trap -- let's set this up so we can catch some women. Breeding purposes.
<Fredrick> Maybe it's a gender sifter.
<Robert and Ari> Studying human patterns, women fight more defensive and men more aggressive so it's selecting for that.
<BJ Steeves> Or female slaves.
<@SLViehl> You know, hunters use traps that don't work on smaller game.
<Fredrick> No, not a trap.
<@SLViehl> Okay, not a trap....then an origin point?
<Robert and Ari> Or by feminist ideas because it wants to "civilize" humans toward matriarchy by founding female run colonies.
<Sally> Maybe it was raised by a coven of ultrafeminist sorceresses . .
<Kay> Sex, not gender, under your definition Frederick. Gender includes orientation, and if I understand you, it's neutral on that. Lesbians are fine with it.
<Fredrick> No, no magic
< Melinda> I like the idea of the race that created it needing new genetic codes?
<Fredrick> Yes, lesbians are fine.
<cherylp> So, we have a machine-like wormhole that targets male vs. female. Has to be a chromosome thing.
<Fredrick> No, not mechanical. Organic, sentient.
<Fredrick> It's like an AI.
<Fredrick> But organic AI
<Robert and Ari> And recognizes chromosomes, what about a natural hermaphrodite
<Dani> does it have a gender or sex?
<cherylp> Yeah, but its not religious nor emotional. Machine-like.
< Melinda> A living wormhole that targets only women
<@SLViehl> If the portal to this hyperspace were sentient, maybe it would only recognize others of the same sex.
<Jinx> Maybe certain chromosomes are like poison to it.
<Fredrick> No, it's sexless.
<Ashtal> Wasn't there a few studies out there that said the Y chromosome was sort of like a deficient X? Perhaps it's excluding them based on that, wanting a 'pure' strain, not a mutant or deficient one.
<Joel_A> maybe it's screening out newer mutations? remember that men are basically a modified female. thus, men are "newer" mutations of women and the barrier only wants originals
<Izunya> Good one, Ashtal!
<Dani> nice Joel
<@SLViehl> We all start out as boys in the womb, as fetuses.
<Kay> Then it's set up by horny men stranded somewhere without women or Coors.
<Robert and Ari> That's cool Ash, so it would filter for other chromosomal defects.
<Joel_A> I thought it was the reverse, Sheila
<Dani> LOL Kay
<Ashtal> I thought we all started as women, and then males developed secondary.
<Julia Pass> All boys? I thought it was all girls.
<Dani> I thought all girls too
< Melinda> There is a school of thought that holds that the"original" sex for all life was female. Maybe it wants to restore that.
<Fredrick> Or maybe it could turn all men into women on the way out
<Kaelle_> I thought it was frogs first. <g>
<@SLViehl> Gender indentification-wise, we all start out with the same equipment.
<cherylp> Oooooh. I like that one, Frederick
<Julia Pass> That would be interesting <g>
<Sally> Fredrick, that's wonderfully cruel. I like.
<@SLViehl> And girls shrink.
<Robert and Ari> Fredrick, if it altered men in short order only women would go and transsexuals.
<Robert and Ari> Transsexuals would go to get the change and no other man would want to.
<Julia Pass> Well, if the portal was only 1-way then nobody would know that, Robert.
<Joel_A> ouch, frederick. it's a lot easier to change a woman physically into a man then the other way around
<Fredrick> Or maybe it wants only andros because that is the race that originally traveled it. Maybe it's bio-coded only to take andros.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Fredrick?
<Sarah> Chromosomes produce proteins -- maybe it's sensitive to proteins produced by the Y chromosome. (and that's specifically human -- chromosomal sex determination gets screwy when you branch out into different species)
<Sally> Yes, Robert, but Sheila could still send her ex through. <G>
<Fredrick> And it attacks non-andros because they are not bio-coded.
<Robert and Ari> But if women can come and go and return with cargoes the women have an extraordinary economic hold on society.
<Fredrick> Yes, men are worthless.
<@SLViehl> Let me dream, Sally...lol
<Izunya> Perhaps the women go through normally, and the men just . . . disappear. Perhaps they aren't dying, just being diverted to elsewhere.
<Dani> didn't want to say it, Fredrick <G>
<Kay> only to other men, Frederick
<Fredrick> They try to sneak men through, but fail every time.
<Fredrick> I wonder about clones.
<Fredrick> Could they get through?
<Izunya> Where and why, of course, is a whole other discussion.
<Robert and Ari> The all male super Dorsai aggressive expendable male soldier caste camp.
<Fredrick> Or maybe it's just one hole that's gender specific.
<cherylp> Nope, Frederick. Identical gene print.
<Robert and Ari> Why wouldn't clones go through?
<@SLViehl> I'd say due to the restrictions of your plot, you might want to go with DNA or chromosomes, whatever sex is allowed through is the originator-type sex.
<Dani> maybe there's another one out there that works the other way
<Sarah> Cheryl> Identical except for telomeric shortening.
< Melinda> My head hurts
<Ashtal> Hee.
<Fredrick> Maybe they could have gender smugglers.
<Joel_A> <gives aspirin to Melinda>
<Fredrick> Smuggle femaleness.
<Joel_A> LOL, fred
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for some interesting twists -- Melinda, do you have a question for the group?
<Izunya> One that almost seems designed to prevent expansion: only females one way through the wormhole, only males through the other.
< Melinda> yes I do
<cherylp> Hmmm. That would be very specific, Frederick.
<Fredrick> Yes, Izzy
<@SLViehl> Throw it at us.
<Fredrick> Great idea, Izunya
<Izunya> Hey, thanks.
<Fredrick> I didn't think of that.
<Robert and Ari> What happens to frozen sperm a woman takes through?
<Dani> robert, that's what I was going to ask!
< Melinda> I have the main character done and I know that she winds up in a alternate reality. I need a catalyst to get her there. any ideas?
<Dani> is the MC on earth?
<Joel_A> and men can take frozen ovums and artifical wombs with them. Or animals to carry the human fetus.
<Izunya> What kind of alternate reality?
<@SLViehl> Do you want traditional or unconvential means, Melinda?
<Robert and Ari> Congruent events on both parallel worlds.
<Sally> fantasy or sf?
<cherylp> LOL, Melinda. The possibilities are endless!
< Melinda> yes, our earth
<Julia Pass> Maybe an injury where her spirit got knocked out of her body? Sort of like "it was all a dream," but with astral travel.
< Melinda> more fantasy
<Sarah> Can you give us a little background on the character?
<Joel_A> oh, boy, melinda. there's a lot for that idea!
<Izunya> If she comes to our earth, where does she come from?
<Robert and Ari> Perfect congruence for one instant and she falls the wrong way.
<Dani> someone from the alternative world comes to get her
<Fredrick> What if every cell in our body had its own subjective reality?
<Anne_Marble> <sneaking in after seeing The Scorpion King>
<cherylp> Maybe she can see the "thin spots" between realities.
<Fredrick> Then every piece of you would have in turn its own reality.
<Julia Pass> Hi Anne.
<Robert and Ari> Congruence would mean she'd only see it after the congruence broke up -
<cherylp> Oooh, was it good, Anne? I've heard it was.
<@SLViehl> A portal to another reality can take the form of anything, when you think about it. Holly does mirrors.
<Ashtal> Is her transport accidental, or on purpose? A choice that is made, or an accident, natural or otherewise?
<Dani> doorways
<Fredrick> Sink drains.
<Izunya> snork!
<Kay> time machine, through the looking glass, ceremonial magic, tesseract, archway in temple
<Fredrick> Heinlein used hypnosis in one story
<Catherine/splodge> Was it good Anne?
<Dani> misty night, strange alleyway
<cherylp> Cool. I wanna go see it.
<Robert and Ari> It's a gate in a weird spot in the air, fall out of a plane the right way and you hit grass.
<@SLViehl> I like structures -- houses, temples, churches, pyramids, etc.
<Ashtal> <slaps herself as she repeats herself. Whee, I'm tired.>
<Dani> ruins
<Sarah> Mirrors, regular doorways acting funny, strange ripples in space
<Fredrick> Reality lounge.
<Izunya> One of my stories, I have a guy who knows how and walking a spiral widdershins.
<Fredrick> Alternate reality bars.
<Kaelle_> doors, windows, gates, books, rings, fairy rings
<cherylp> <giggle> @ Frederick
<Kaelle_> lol Fred
<Sally> Drinking from a bottle labeled "drink me"
<Joel_A> a holodeck.
<Melinda> Sorry I got bumped
<Kay> leaps from the end of a labyrinth
<Dani> is she summoned?
<Julia Pass> Eating something that says "Eat me"
<Joel_A> wb, melinda
<@SLViehl> Out of doors, forests, sacred grounds, caves, tunnels, hollow trees
<James> A spot near her home through which random alternate realities intrude. Stand there, t he change happens, you're whisked into that alternate.
<Dani> wb Melinda!
<Joel_A> her cell phone
<Kay> dives into the reflecting pool
<Sarah> Lakes
<Robert and Ari> I have one type that takes three strong sources of magical energy that all agree on same goal and one must be evil.
<Dani> a new room appears in her house one day
<Kaelle_> Turn a corner somewhere specific...
<@SLViehl> We're coming up with lots of alternatives for you, Melinda
<Dani> lol Joel
<Izunya> I also, in a very nonserious story, had a giant beauracracy do it.
<Julia Pass> Some religions think that trees that form perfect arches are gateways to other dimensions.
<@SLViehl> Windows haven't been done, that I can think of.
<Fredrick> A coma.
<Joel_A> a CD that, when she put it in her computer, the monitor flashed and transports her
<Melinda> I know I'll need the transcripts
<Sally> finds an odd ring in a Dumpster- one of my mc's does somethin like that.
<Fredrick> She slips into one and wakes up in an alternate reality, sort of like Thomas Covenant.
<Sarah> Ooh, yeah, odd pieces of jewelry
<Kaelle_> Windows have been done, but I can't think of his name
<@SLViehl> I'll post a transcript right after we're through here, Melinda, no worries.
<Joel_A> really, dani! cell phones make great interdimensional transporters
<Melinda> I kinda like that one
<Dani> legacy - key to strange door
<BJ Steeves> Bill Gates
<Melinda> How bout a car wreck?
<James> Eaten by a multidimensional beast. Eats you here, cut your way out of its stomach in some other dimension.
<Fredrick> An elevator.
<Joel_A> BJ!
<BarGnat> Parallel universes... MC's doppelganger suffers accident same time MC does and they get switched during comas?
<Fredrick> Each floor has its own realirt.
<@SLViehl> Stephen King used back roads in one short story
<Robert and Ari> Car crash but she goes right through the other car like a hologram but hers doesn't work on the other side.
<Sally> Eww, James.
<Joel_A> I like that, James. Messy
<@SLViehl> Elevators
<Sarah> People (my Fiona is a Gatekeeper)
<Dani> cool, Sheila!
<Fredrick> An alternate reality located on a brain tumor.
<Ashtal> Plus during the crash, she would be wounded, disoriented. You could disguise it from the readers a bit, as she's tryign to figure it out.
<@SLViehl> Ick, James
<Izunya> I guess in a lot of my stories I've used "the guy who knows the magic," mostly so that there will be someone who can explain a few things on the other side. And it's not always a guy; once it was a woman who was half made of tattoos.
<Joel_A> her hair. when she cuts it or it grows from a certain length, she travels to different dimensions.
<Melinda> elevators good, gets off on thirteenth floor in another world
<Julia Pass> lol joel
<Sally> strange angles in the attic room . .
<Kaelle_> Izunya, I have a tattoo lady!
<Sarah> Following strange animals...
<James> I've a messy mind...
<Joel_A> it's a cool idea, julia
<Fredrick> Bacterial realities.
<Kay> steps through an archway in an old used bookstore
<Izunya> A maze in the back of a theater.
<Robert and Ari> Car crash she goes through like a ghost, confusing her that she's dead (when it was the person in the other world who died)
<Izunya> Cool, Kaelle!
<Sarah> Three left turns that don't take you back to the start
<Fredrick> A merry-go-round.
<Sally> A strange person in chat <g>
<James> Oh, Like that, Fredrick
<@SLViehl> Spiral staircases
<Dani> fridge, like in Ghostbusters
<Kaelle_> Her tattoos do different things, magically.
<Fredrick> Only it ain't that merry when she wakes up
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Melinda?
<Fredrick> Movie posters.
<Robert and Ari> Helter Skelter, you have to walk into the scene of the mass murder and try to run away when the killer locked you in.
<Melinda> The tatoo idea is interesting
<Sally> I have it! Fortune cookie!
<Joel_A> someone in the chatroom gives her the spell to transport to the other world...
<@SLViehl> I like elevators, windows, or other ordinary stuff.
<Joel_A> coolness, sally
<Fredrick> Injectable alternate realities.
<cherylp> Do you think almost everything reminds us of an alternate reality? <grin>
<@SLViehl> neat, Sally
<Julia Pass> I like it, Sally <g>
<Ashtal> On the merry-go-round vein...what about she travels to a place that travels...like a carnival, and she stays too long and finds herself gone with them.
<Izunya> Cats. Someone had to suggest cats.
<Fredrick> Libraries.
<@SLViehl> Thank you, Izunya
<Joel_A> bookstores!
<Melinda> Thanks guys a lot to think about.
<Robert and Ari> Thank you Pratchett and Joel. <G>
<Fredrick> Toilet--ugh!
<Joel_A> gross, fred!
<Melinda> no plumbing, plumbing bad
<Sarah> Strange keys that turn normal doors into doors to alternate realities
<Kaelle_> Cars, this gear to alternate world
<Julia Pass> Ooh, that's cool, Sarah.
<Izunya> I agree with Melinda, plumbing bad.
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for some really inventive stuff -- BarGnat, do you have a question for the group tonight?
<Melinda> bye everone gotto write
<BarGnat> yes, although it's rather simplistic
<@SLViehl> We love simplistic. Sock it to us.
<BarGnat> How bad is it to have a surprise twist at the end of a novel? As long as it still gives the reader a feeling of completion -- i.e., not a cliffhanger of any kind, but the kind that gives the reader that "I'm so smart" feeling from having suspected something was going on behind the scenes -- and leaves the door open just a bit for a second book, but doesn't in any way yell "I need a sequel"?
<Joel_A> night, melinda
<Jinx> Night, Melinda
<Ashtal> Night.
<Julia Pass> Night, Melinda.
<Fredrick> Good night.
<BarGnat> night, Melinda
<Kaelle_> No, that's good, BG. I like those kind.
<James> See you, Melinda.
<@SLViehl> Well, I can tell you that springing one of those on readers will get you a considerable amount of disgruntled e-mail, lol
<Joel_A> I hear they're very hard to do, Bar
<Robert and Ari> Those are great! Especially when every step to it is set up and I didn't see it coming!
<Julia Pass> It really depends on how it's done, BG.
<Izunya> G'night, Melinda
<Fredrick> To be honest, I dislike surprise endings.
<cherylp> Usually in short story, not novel.
<Sally> If there's enough set up that the reader could have gotten it, it's all right.
<BarGnat> The first clue is in the prologue, before the MC ever appears in the book
<Kay> It isn't bad at all BarGnat. The critics scream, so do some other people, but then you're venerated for your originality.
<cherylp> Excepr whodunnits
<Catherine/splodge> I like twists. Personal taste, i guess
<Julia Pass> But make sure that after it comes readers can use little things throughout the book and then smack their heads against walls for not figuring it out.
<Fredrick> Especially in a novel. I don't mind plot twists, but surprises have a sort of a-ha, now I got you.
<@SLViehl> I love surprise endings, in contrast
<Kay> Just remember the Murder of Roger Ackroyd!
<James> Mostly, I enjoy that sort of thing, but you need to be careful with exactly how you leave it open for a sequel: if that feels forced, it would be a problem.
<Sarah> I love them, especially when you can re-read and say "oh, THERE it was!"
<Sally> Actually, if you're spreading the hints liberally, it might not be as much of a surprise as you think.
<Robert and Ari> Welll you pulled that whopper in Beyond Varallan, Sheila!!!
<Fredrick> Oftentimes it's easy to see the surprise coming from a mile away, like in 6th sense.
<@SLViehl> Yep, and I got a ton of grief for it, too, Robert
<Sarah> <nearly went insane waiting for Endurance>
<Kaelle_> Huh, not from me,
<Sally> I freaked out someone in my first crit group by guessing the surprise ending after the first chapter.
<BarGnat> Yup, therre's something in most of the chapters that you can look back at and say "ahah!"
<cherylp> Frederick, I got 6th sense nearly at once, but my husband and several of my friends didn't.
<Robert and Ari> Nor from me, Sheila.
<Julia Pass> Yes, Fredrick, the ending was thinner than a piece of paper after rubbing a hamburger on it.
<@SLViehl> Mary, do you like surprise endings?
<Anne_Marble> I like twists, as long as they're good. I loved "Usual Suspects." Hated the obscure "Nature of the Beast" because the twist seemed illogical and forced.
<@SLViehl> Anne, did you read Linda Howard's Open Season yet?
<Joel_A> and what the "twist" ending in the movie, planet of the apes? ugh
<Sarah> OOh, yeah, movie-wise think Sixth Sense or Unbreakable.
<Kay> You just have to be ready to put up with the grief for the sake of your art. As long as reviewers WRITE about it, who cares if they complain about the surprise ending as long as they don't give it away?
<@SLViehl> Like Kay says.
<Izunya> Personally, I like many surprises. If I can't find the clues on my second reading, I get a little bit ticked, but it sounds like you've got that covered.
<Julia Pass> I just thought the characters weren't acting realistically in 6th sense. If you do it, BG, make the characters act real.
<Fredrick> People will give it away, unfortunately.
<James> I still think Usual Suspects was a rip-off of the original Foundation trilogy (i.e. the Mule). But I try not to hold it against it.
<BarGnat> I like books with them, but only if there's enough handwriting on the wall
<@Jim> Sheila, why did you get a ton of grief? From whom?
<Sarah> Shyamalan = good twists, Planet of the Apes = bad twist.
<Robert and Ari> It should still be a good read if someone drops a spoiler
<Sally> Make sure the plot is good even if the surprise isn't a surpise.
<Anne_Marble> Not yet
<@SLViehl> I set up the ending of my second book very carefully -- all the clues were there, if you looked for them.
<Sally> Umm, what Robert said. <g>
<Julia Pass> The POTA twist didn't really accomplish anything, IMO.
<Fredrick> The Demolished Man tells you the killer right away, but it doesn't take away from the story.
<Fredrick> In fact, it helps it.
<Anon_39> POTA infuritated me to no end.
<Robert and Ari> I was more impressed that you managed to get to the end of Endurance after doing it - and you had the same meticulous setup!
<@SLViehl> But people just didn't see it coming. Which was what I wanted. Some people resent that, because they want to be told everything or guess everything first. I like surprises better.
<Anon_39> Anon_39 = Ashtal, BTW.
<BarGnat> This is a little old lady from West Texas who craves adventure to liven up her lonely and boring widowed life
<Izunya> aol; tricks should be for the sake of the reader, not to show how smart the author is.
<Robert and Ari> That was the most brilliant bit of "You have judged without knowing all the facts" I've ever seen in a book.
<@SLViehl> Yeah, it was definitely a double-whammy twist, Robert
<cherylp> C.J. Cherryh gave me some advice about twist endings once. She said never hide things from your reader. They'll hate you for it.
<Julia Pass> I don't like totally random twists like POTA.
<@Jim> Ashtal... put a "2" after your name and you'll be on the list.
<Robert and Ari> You caught me twice and proved a chilling theme point about witnesses.
<Ashtal2> Thanks.
<BarGnat> At the end of the book she's the only one who still doesn't know she's been part of Terra's biggest Big Adventure all along
<Sally> I liked POTA . .
<@SLViehl> It's basically up to the writer. There are people on either side of the camp.
<Kay> worked like a charm!
<Fredrick> I think a twist like Empire Strikes Back Vader/Luke work well
<James> In Endurance, you were more likely to get a nasty email from me over that wretched slave number tattoo. By the end I was practically shouting, "Oh, please, just let her be!"
<Ashtal2> The original was great, the remake's twist for the sake of twist was painful.
<@SLViehl> That was a personal metaphor, James. Sorry
<Izunya> I loved Endurance--because I guessed the ending the moment Cherijo referred to Zorro, and then second-guessed myself and said, "Naah."
<Dani> a twist like Ender?
<Kaelle_> Which was why I thought Endurance was an excellent title
<BarGnat> This is a lighthearted romp, by the way
<Sally> Ah, haven't seen remake.
<James> I forgive you, of course
<Fredrick> Ender's twist didn't work for me. It was too obvious.
<BarGnat> No melodrama, per se
<Joel_A> but the torture in Endurance <shudder>
<Ashtal2> You haven't missed a thing, Sally.
<Fredrick> But I still thought Ender was a good book.
<Joel_A> Same here, Fred.
<Dani> Ender, as in, readers may know/guess, but character doesn't?
<@SLViehl> Light hearted romps should stay light hearted, Mary. I say, don't mow them down with a total shocker.
<Kay> Surprise ending with adequate clues even MORE acceptable in lighthearted fiction.
<Kay> right, provided twist, too , is lighthearted
<Sally> Suprise might actually work better if it's humorous. Don't get so upset about the characters.
<BarGnat> It's a lighthearted surprise
<Robert and Ari> This is BarGnat - a twist that's the gag will get MUCH appreciation.
<@SLViehl> Ender as in Ender's Game by that Card person.
<cherylp> Geez! Everyone's talking too fast!
<Anne_Marble> Light hearted romps can have lighthearted... argh, beat me
<Anne_Marble> How about the movie Clue? The last ending was funny!
<Kay> then quit yelling at yourself and send it out
<Fredrick> The problem with a lot of surprise stories is that the writer tries so hard to hide the surprise that they neglect to tell the story.
<Fredrick> Yeah, I thought Clue was great.
<Julia Pass> Clue was a laff riot.
<Ashtal2> Clue was so funny and goofy! I loved it.
<James> Exactly, Joel. By the time they decided they were going to try carving the number on, I was just about cross-eyed with horror. In a good way, Sheila, I swear
<Fredrick> And Death on the Nile by A. christie had a great solution.
<@SLViehl> Well, now you know what my divorce was like for me personally, James.
<Kay> ooo, YUK
<Sarah> Clue is even more fun to act in. <g>
<Kaelle_> Whoa, Sheila
<Anne_Marble> You can always get clues by reading an Agatha after knowing who did it.
<Joel_A> ouch, ouch, OUCH! Enough! I would have started a fight to get killed!
<James> Boy -- you needed a better lawyer
<Joel_A> that was great, Fred!
<@SLViehl> and Time -- any last comments, suggestions for BarGnat?
<Izunya> Joel: for Sheila's character, that's a little difficult. But I shouldn't ruin the surprise.
<Joel_A> do it, Bar!
<Fredrick> What was, Joel?
<@SLViehl> I'd go for a lighthearted surprise. Have fun with your readers.
<Joel_A> Death on the Nile, Fred.
<BarGnat> Already did it... just worried if I should change it during the rewrite
<Izunya> Hey, I've never heard that sending a story out can *hurt,* so long as it's not a pink-pen-purple-paper job.
<Kay> Seriously Mary, quit yelling at yourself and send that book out somewhere and see if you can sell it. It's FINE to have a lighthearted surprise at the end of a lighthearted book.
<Kaelle_> Go with it, BarGnat.
<@SLViehl> Maybe post it for critique? Would that help?
<James> Certainly as a reader I'll forgive just about anything for fun.
<Sally> Go for it, BG.
<BarGnat> Prologue is up
<Robert and Ari> Yeah, you're in a crit circle. Shoot it through us.
<Fredrick> I can't even remember the last story I wrote with a twist ending.
<BarGnat> It's in Nonny's Circle
<@SLViehl> What's the title of the story, Mary, so we can check it out?
<Robert and Ari> BG - post a synopsis next. Of the whole book, ending included.
<Julia Pass> Never written a story with a twist, personally.
<Kay> yes, Frederick but you're serious
<BarGnat> Little Old Lady from Lexicon
<BarGnat> I'm not good at titles
<Sarah> I tend to end most of my shorts with twists..
<@SLViehl> I like it
<Fredrick> That would explain it, Kay
<Sally> lol, Bargnat. That's great.
<Robert and Ari> For one thing a synopsis itself should get critiqued and rewritten till perfect for submissions.
<Fredrick> But I can be funny as well
<cherylp> Love that alliteration!
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for some great suggestions -- Ashtal, do yo have a question for the group?
<Izunya> I think the biggest twist I've done recently was the dark elf who turned out to be a high elf who died his skin to get some nookie.
<Ashtal2> Nope.
<@SLViehl> Joel, you're up
<Kay> I can identify, Frederick. I'm not allowed to tell jokes without an Act of Congress.
<BarGnat> Believe me Robert, the synopsis (300 words) was harder to write than the danged book!
<@SLViehl> lol Kay
<Joel_A> how'd you know I had a question, sheila?
<James> Screams to be first line of a limerick.
<Dani> lol Izunya
<@SLViehl> I can read your mind, Joel.
<@SLViehl> Stop thinkin about chocolate so much.
<Joel_A> hey!
<Joel_A> here's my question:
<Robert and Ari> Sheila's always reading minds <projecting godiva>
<Izunya> <g> if anyone's curious, it's still back there under the January genre challenge.
<Joel_A> YUMMM
<Fredrick> Aren't there any telepaths around here that just skim minds?
<Joel_A> now, what was my question...there it is! behind the See's candy!
<cherylp> That's your question, Joel?
<@SLViehl> (wail) not See's. Oh, stop.
<Joel_A> uh, no, cheryl
<Joel_A> See's = YUM. Especially with nuts and chocolate
<@SLViehl> (I have to go to California to get See's)
<@Jim> The answer to Joel's question is... 42.
<Jinx> Oh, geez .. I love See's.... <drools>
<Jinx> You can get it online, Sheila.
<cherylp> While we're still young, Joel! <g>
<Robert and Ari> Never had it.
<Joel_A> I live in CA. A See's shop is down the street....
<Fredrick> Is 42 your final answer?
<Kaelle_> lol Jim
<Joel_A> well, just because you are young, cheryl
<Izunya> Joel wants to know <puts fingers to head> how much wood a wood chuck would chuck . . . wait.
<Robert and Ari> I bid 43
<cherylp> LOL, Fred
<Kay> Joel, stop chatting and type the question before I die of suspense
<Sarah> Thanks to a certain someone I'm now suffering periodic cravings for Kilwin's...
<Joel_A> here's the question: (stop it!) What actions are considered especially heinous if committed by a woman? (e.g., deliberating killing her children, etc.)
<@SLViehl> strangling her own newborn
<Dani2> cato, you fiend
<Anne_Marble> Serial killer
<Kay> cheating on her husband
<Fredrick> Depends on the culture.
<Robert and Ari> Medea killed her children and then stewed them and fed them to their father.
<Sally> Killing spouse for adultery
<@SLViehl> ick, Robert
<Kay> being promiscuous
<cherylp> Hiring a hit person to kill her family
<Julia Pass> Ewwww, Robert.
<Robert and Ari> The ancient Greeks were icky, huh? <G>
<Fredrick> Getting your belly button pierced.
<Kaelle_> <stomach churning>
<Robert and Ari> Oedipus's mom
<@SLViehl> Pedophilia. They should all die.
<cherylp> Note the political correctness.
<Kay> leaving her children behind when she tries to escape the batterer she's married to
<Jinx> Anything awful with children, especially her own.
<@Jim> Doing a Bobbit on her husband.
<Sally> Depending on culture, speaking up for herself.
<Joel_A> LOL, cheryl. Fred!
<@SLViehl> Ack, Jim.
<Julia Pass> Bobbit?
<Robert and Ari> Oddly in some courts, killing the abuser.
<Izunya> Most of the same for a man, I would think. Killing children. Killing people, in general. Sexually assaulting children. Raping someone, man or woman, which would be difficult and would probably involve an object, but could, I think, be done. Mutilation of others. Torture.
<cherylp> aka Lorena Bobbit.
<James> Dating Russell Crowe.
<Julia Pass> Ahhhhhh
<Robert and Ari> Men killing unfaithful wives gets less penalty than women killing abusive husbands.
<@SLViehl> renting her children out for R-rated purposes
<Joel_A> LOL, James!
<Kay> child abuse of any kind
<Fredrick> Not binding her feet
<@Jim> Julia: Mrs Bobbit cut off a certain part of her husband's anatomy and left it lying in the road.
<@SLViehl> No dissing Russell, now.
<Fredrick> Leaving her elderly mother to die alone.
<@SLViehl> I have this one friend who did something completely terrible to her ex.
<Robert and Ari> Promiscuity or sexual violation of any custom. Heavily enforced.
<Kay> oooo, yes, sheila --- prostituting her children to pay for her drug habit
<Robert and Ari> Prostitution
<Sally> Acting as a procuror.
<James> I would have thought a woman would get leeway for that, Sally.
<Anne_Marble> Cheating at cards
<Ashtal2> I think the biggies are still the biggies, regardless of gender. But anything children related would be tops on the list.
<BarGnat> Jim> But she put it in a sock first.
<@SLViehl> It involved a certain portion of his anatomy, and superglue.
<Izunya> It depends, really, on whether you mean "What is genuinely horrible for a woman to do," or "What does a cross-section of cultures find horrible in a woman."
<Dani3> not cooking dinner... depends on the customs
<Joel_A> Anne!
<Fredrick> Ouch!
<Sally> James- not as much as a man.
<Jinx> Ewwwww
<@SLViehl> He had to have skin grafts.
<cherylp> Definitely cheating at cards. <g>
<Julia Pass> omg that's horrible sheila
<@SLViehl> Women can be extremely vicious that way.
<Robert and Ari> Selling her kids into slavery
<Joel_A> ouch, sheila!
<@SLViehl> We're no longer friends, btw
<Robert and Ari> Selling her mom or sisters into it.
<Fredrick> Psychological torture.
<Kay> but worse if it's her children
<Joel_A> examples, fred?
<Dani3> violent crimes
<Sally> Beating a man at anything.
<Joel_A> those are insecure men, sally....
<Fredrick> Telling your children from day one that they won't amount to anything.
<Anne_Marble> Smoking a cigar
<@SLViehl> what about physically abusing a man? That's not all that uncommon, actually.
<Fredrick> Or worse, Andrea Yates.
<Robert and Ari> Sacrificing your kids to evil deities.
<Dani3> arson
<@SLViehl> like the battered husband thing.
<Julia Pass> You're right, Sheila.
<Sarah> Joel> Is this in a fantasy or SF setting?
<Julia Pass> About the abuse of a man, I mean.
<@SLViehl> Or abuse of the elderly. That does happen a lot here in S. FL.
<Fredrick> Manipulating a man's memory to make him think he once loved her.
<Joel_A> the women who committed all of these abuses are from myths and real world, Julia
<Anne_Marble> A Maryland politician recently said his wife threatened him and hit him, and that's why he hit her.
<Julia Pass> Yeah, Robert, sacrificing your kids to evil deities can't win you many points with the good guys.
<Robert and Ari> Blackmailing a man with sex
<James> It's now taking dozens of posts for my posts to appear, so I'm going to deliberately log-off/on. BRB.
<Fredrick> Blackmailing another woman with sex
<Robert and Ari> Tying them up for the abuser and helping
<@SLViehl> Getting infected with an STD, for the sole purpose of infecting her significant other.
<Anne_Marble> But he was the one arrested because she was bleeding.
<Joel_A> night, james
<Julia Pass> Which one, Anne? I hadn't heard about that.
<Kay> false accusation of rape
<BarGnat> Got a couple of true horror stories from Texas, Joel
<Fredrick> Yes, that's very bad.
<Izunya> If you have genuine demons in this world, consorting with them would probably be on the list. Genuine demons generally need genuine demon kibble, which isn't sold in most stores.
<Ashtal2> It's kind of ironic. If the culture wasn't still thick with our gender preconceptions and identies, then abuse on men would be taken more seriously.
<Joel_A> i'm ears, bar
<Fredrick> The false accusation of rape, I mean.
<Anne_Marble> I think it was a county official thingie. She was a professional boxer. NOW excoriated him but said nothing about her.
<@SLViehl> Black widows -- the ones who poison their rich husbands and marry again for the same thing.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Joel?
<Robert and Ari> Souring the milk and giving peole the evil eye.
<Kay> not nearly as bad as prostituting your own chlidren to support your drug habit, though
<Sarah> If it's fantasy or SF, changing her unborn child (via magic/genetics) into something else for the purposes of creating a warrior/science project/etc.
<@Jim> Iz: You don't have demon kibble in your stores? Really?
<Joel_A> thanks, y'all. great stuff here.
<Anne_Marble> Appearing on the Jerry Springer show!!!
<Izunya> (Not that I believe in demons, having never seen one, but most stories about them involve a bit of blood or flesh or both.)
<Robert and Ari> Gossiping and hurting people
<Kaelle_> lol, Izunya
<@SLViehl> I'd go with what most horrifies you, Joel -- you'll be able to channel that into your writing.
<BarGnat> One woman killed her three children, cut them up, and put them in the freezer wrapped like they were roasts, or whatever
<Anne_Marble> Saying no to Broud ;->
<Fredrick> Making her sister commit suicide
<Joel_A> ugh, sheila. you know how to hurt a person
<Ashtal> There are unfortunately a lot of examples that be ripped from the headlines of the papers.
<BarGnat> Another (about 19) was jealous because her husband paid too much attention to their new baby
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for some horrific ideas -- cherylp, have you got a question for the group?
<BarGnat> She baked the baby and brought it to him at the dinner table and put it in front of him
<Anne_Marble> Poisoning the teacher
<Izunya> Unfortunately, women do as many nasty things as men do; comb the news, and you're likely to find something that'll squick you sufficiently, or excessively.
<cherylp> Yes, I do. Hoping it generates discussion but not dizziness.
<@SLViehl> We'll do our best
<Fredrick> I don't think you could use some of these things in fiction. They're too awful.
<Fredrick> Too unbelievable.
<cherylp> Well, crap. Cut & paste don't work here. My question is this:
<James> I'm back. So let's see if my posts get through...
<Anon_72> Medea revisited always flies and Vincent Price did a funny version with two poodles as the victims.
<cherylp> How do most of you write?
<James> Ah, they get through a treat
<Kay> The baked baby is too sick to be anything but horribly, pitifully true.
<@Jim> Cut and paste will work if you paste with Ctrl+V
<@SLViehl> we see you, James
<@SLViehl> How as in the method, time?
<BarGnat> Both are true
<cherylp> In scenes, whhich you block out beforehand, or just start with word one and let the work flow.
<Joel_A> OH, dear, cheryp
<cherylp> Or with the ending and then work toward it?
<@SLViehl> I outline, then I think the scene through until I can watch it like a movie, then I write.
<Joel_A> all of those, cherylp, depending on mood and intent
<Anon_72> I start at the beginning and by the time I'm done wtih the beginning I've got a good idea of the end.
<@SLViehl> I outline the whole novel first, though.
<Kay> word one and let flow is working VERY badly for me cherylp, so I'll be interested in the answers, too
<@Jim> I outline each scene with a one-liner and write from that, tho sometimes the story takes me elsewhere.
<Sarah> I have an outline of the book (about 11 pages long) that I work around. It's the thread running through constantly, but the actual scenes wander around that thread as the characters take control.
<Kaelle_> A combination. I use the workshops from the site to get info & background, and sketch out a plot then start.
<Julia Pass> I write the scenes in order. I always go from beginning to end. Depending on how clear the book is in my head, I might outline on paper or in my head.
<Izunya> Any way that works on the particular day that I happen to be trying to write, depending heavily on whether I'm at home on my leisure or following the World's Most Stubborn Student from class to class or . . .
<Catherine/splodge> I play it out in my head, nd then write it, outlining if I get stuck
<Joel_A> started out with free writing, then went back to outline
<James> In a perfect world, I outline broadly, then do detailed outlines of each scene before I write it.
<Fredrick> I do an Indy Jones. I make it up as I go.
<Julia Pass> I normally do it in my head, though, because outlines can get kinda restrictive for me.
<Dani3> I use Holly's suggestion of one line summaries and then plan it out in my head around that, daydream it
<Izunya> I outline a bit. And then I disregard the outline. Shockingly.
<@Jim> Dani - same here.
<@SLViehl> cherylp, is there one way that works better for you? Free style or planned?
<James> In the real world, I outline, write, chuck it out, change projects, take a fortnight off, change projects, outline again, write, rewrite, quit, change projects...
<@SLViehl> Both have their merits
<cherylp> Nope. I'm thinking that I should plan more.
<Dani3> why?
<Fredrick> Outlines can often do more harm than good IMHO.
<Ashtal> I need to trick myself into thinking there is a plan. If I have no plan, I fumble, I freeze. If I have a plan, I'm freed up to follow it, or disregard as necessary.
<Julia Pass> Also, I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but it sort of applies too. I don't edit anything I've done unless there's a name change (like a character with the same initials as the Dow Jones Industrial Average)
<@SLViehl> What does everyone hate about outlining the most? Honest answers, now.
<cherylp> Because I have trouble finishing novels.
<@Jim> Cheryl: Then you probably should. Try it and do what works for you.
<Joel_A> oh dear, james.
<Sarah> Elysium has had more of a plan than any of the others, and it has been the easiest to write...
<@Jim> Sheila: I don't hate outlines at all.
<Sally> The middle, Sheila.
<Anon_72> Because the book feels done before it is an it's not as much fun
<James> I know, Joel, it's a shocking confession You should see how I do it in my bad weeks...
<Catherine/splodge> too much extra work
<Izunya> I also outline "long thingies," defined as something that I think will have "chapter thingies." "Short thingies," which finish in a few scenes, I sometimes do in only a few sittings, free-writing.
<Anne_Marble> Sometimes I write a quick early draft as a very condensed short story.
<Fredrick> Because it's too restrictive for me. It makes a book like a fill in the dots. I want to be free to make changes and take different paths.
<Joel_A> LOL, james
<Julia Pass> I hate outlining because I'm bad at actually finishing the outline if it's on paper. School has ruined outlines for me.
<BarGnat> I only hate the idea of having anyone else see how messy my outlines are
<Dani3> If all my enthusiasm goes into planning, I don';t need to write the book, it's gone
<@SLViehl> If you go on a road trip, and you don't follow a map, or at least glance at one, you're going to get lost. That's how I look at outlines
<Catherine/splodge> especially since i often end up doing something differently
<James> To the extent that I don't like outlining, it's because it's hard. And it's where I most often find mistakes in my plot, and I want to shoot the messenger (i.e. the outline).
<@SLViehl> And you can do outlining differently -- make your own system.
<@Jim> Fredrick - I don't always stick to the outline. I take different paths when they seem to better the story.
<Fredrick> Sometimes it's better to go where the wind takes you.
<Robert> Maass got me over the fear of it though, since I outlined this trilogy
<cherylp> Somehow I have to hit a happy medium between planning and taking all the joy out of the book.
<Julia Pass> Plus, I like handwriting my outlines but my brain thinks differently (if that makes sense) when I'm using longhand than when I type, which is how I do my drafts.
<Kay> No, I'm with Cherylp, I'm thinking I should plan more, and that outlining would help me stay focused.
<Kaelle_> I like outlines, mainly because I need a framework to expand upon.
<Ashtal> I figure I might as well outline: better get stuck on a 10 page outline at some point, then to get stuck after writing 30-60,000 words.
<@SLViehl> As professionals, you will probably be required to submit outlines to publishers. Keep that in mind, all you free spirits.
<Sally> But I'm the kind who just follows the road signs and assumes I'll get somewhere eventually.
<Fredrick> I'm not saying I never outline, I'm just saying I don't slavishly outline or slavishly follow it to the letter.
<Robert> I wrote it like a 300 word pitch for the novel "what's it about" and left it vague
<Izunya> The thing I dislike most about outlining is that my teachers told me to do it in school. The thing I dislike next most about it is that it occasionally traps me, and the thing I dislike third most about it is that I can waste half a day on an outline in order to not put anything else down.
<James> But finding my mistakes is a reason for outlining, not against (it shouldn't matter that it hurts).
<Dani3> The one sentence per scene thing works well for me - plots make far more sense now
<Joel_A> I can envision too many ways to take a story. outlines help narrow them down. Also, what sheila said.
<Julia Pass> I do maybe a couple paragraphs on paper so I get the basic plot and then the rest is more made up.
<Izunya> My priorities may be skewed.
<Fredrick> Also outlines don't necessarily tell you the whole story.
<Joel_A> ...about submissions to the editors.
<@SLViehl> Try writing the outline for yourself instead of an editor. Have fun with it.
<@SLViehl> Holly makes maps. Have you seen Holly's maps? They're incredible.
<Kay> So they are!
<Robert> They're beautiful.
<cherylp> Sheila, I outlined a novel so completely that I almost wrote the thing. Now I can't go back and fill in the blanks.
<Julia Pass> For the Really Long book in the works, I've got a detailed outline because I need it. For the shorter ones like Eldest and Betrayal I can keep most of them in my head.
<@SLViehl> She can tell you all about her world by pointing out things on those maps. And they are outlines of her novels, in a way.
<BarGnat> I do the one sentence/scene thingie.... then I flesh it out with bits of dialogue or whatever comes to mind and call it an outline
<Dani3> Cheryl, sounds like over-outlining
<Sarah> That helped a lot with Elysium. I mapped the world, then Mari's estate, then her house. Made the world a lot clearer and the scenes went much more smoothly.
<Izunya> If one feels one should outline, but doesn't like Roman numerals, there are other versions available. Clustering, bubbles, random scrawls . . .
<Sally> Yep! I always make sure to have a map, even though I rarely use it
<Fredrick> I'm not a big map fan to be honest.
<@SLViehl> I sketch all my characters. As an artist, I suck, but it's fun.
<Robert> I like a loose outline so that it'll be fun to know exactly how that happened.
<Kaelle_> I like maps, Helps me visualize settings for the story.
<@SLViehl> I do floorplans of the different buildings. I draw parks.
<Sarah> I liked your drawing of Squil
<Dani3> lots of my plotting stupidities get cleared up with a skeletal plan and some basic maps
<Joel_A> same here on Squil.
<@SLViehl> thank you, Sarah -- that one didn't suck too much.
<cherylp> Okay, I've lost the thread here, anyway. Thanks, everyone.
<@SLViehl> But it helped me see him, and in a way, hear him.
<Ashtal> I like putting the scenes into bullet points, starting with the big ones and then making bridges. Then I gather them into groups for chapters.
<Fredrick> Oftentimes if I try to make, I'll be forced to use cliches like Big Hills, Small Valley, etc.
<James> Which raises Mind Maps -- a visual outlining method where you write ideas in bubbles and link them to related ideas in other bubbles. I tried it once, found it a loose method of outlining, but I liked it.
<@SLViehl> Transcript will be posted after the session, cherylp, so you can check out all these ideas at your leisure.
<Kay> the thread is how do we write
<Sarah> That's why I had to design Mari's presentation gown.
<Dani3> Mind maps are great for brainstorming alternate plot possibilites
<Joel_A> I like mind maps. I write, "MC does this" and radiate ideas from them
<Fredrick> I'd rather make it up as I go.
<Robert> Bulleted paragrpahs would freeze me faster than anything but roman numerals.
<Jinx> Cheryl, I think the big thing is to find what works for you. That may take many takes of different variations until you find the style that you like best.
<Julia Pass> Da Vinci used mind maps all the time. They really work. (Insane da Vinci worshiper here <g>)
<Fredrick> Inspiration is underrated.
<Izunya> I tend to write down main character conflicts, internal and external. If I'm doing a fantasy world, I also do a little linguistic design (which 98 percent of the time I don't use) and it gives me a feeling of how the cultures go.
<James> That's their strength, I think, they allow explosive bursts of creativity (I thought).
<@SLViehl> I've made quilts that are color-coded to certain scenes. I can't explain it, but when I look at the design and color, I see the scene. That's about the weirdest thing I do.
<Ashtal> Really? I love them, because to me they don't feel permenant. Just fragments. I haven't even committed to the idea enough to give it sentence status yet.
<Robert> Oh that totally makes sense, Sheila
<Joel_A> as jinx said, cheryl. there are so many methods. try them all before you get published (nods to sheila). you then won't have time
<@SLViehl> and Time -- any last comments, suggestions for cherylp?
<Joel_A> that's interesting, sheila
<Sarah> OOh, I put the soundtrack together too. "Now I'm at this scene, must put this song on continuous repeat".
<Robert> Someday I'm doing all my fantasy characters' heraldry as banners.
<Fredrick> Once I made a map on the back of notebook paper, then I threw it away. It was very freeing.
<@SLViehl> absolutely -- soundtracks are wonderful.
<Fredrick> Go with your instincts.
<Julia Pass> Read about da Vinci. The guy had great ideas and a lot of them are good for organizing your thoughts.
<Julia Pass> I recommend Michael J. Gelb's "How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci."
<cherylp> thanks!
<Fredrick> Of course it was a bad map
<Dani3> try not to kill the story-passion before you write
<Fredrick> This is why I never became a cartographer.
<@SLViehl> thanks to all for some great views -- BJ, do you have a question for the group?
<Julia Pass> At least, I think that's what it's called. Could be wrong...search under Gelb in case I am wrong.
<Robert> I'd be too distracted by things like that. like the trying to think different thing
<Izunya> You could also use other-than-paper mediums, like dry-erase boards, or beads with flags.
<Catherine/splodge> I have a soundtrack
<BJ Steeves> No Question, Mine was similar to Melinda's.
<@SLViehl> I use a dry erase board, works great, too.
<Robert> Quest is Blue Oyster Cult
<Fredrick> I use Jerry Goldsmith. Great composer.
<@SLViehl> Izunya, do you have a question for the group?
<Robert> But I like colored sticky notes and index cards now.
<Izunya> Actually, yes, I do, a short one.
<James> Noted, Julia. I'll check it out on Amazon -- 'cause it sounds interesting.
<@SLViehl> Hand it over.
<Joel_A> cross out Jim's name?
<Catherine/splodge> starting to use more index cards
<Dani3> I use think tank for plotting
<Izunya> Anyone know any good markets for funny and rather weird science fiction?
<@SLViehl> there you go, Danielle
<JimM> ((Don't cross out Jim's name... Jim will be cross if you do!))
<Fredrick> Planet Relish, but it's on hiatus.
<Izunya> Short story, about five pages single-spaced.
<Kaelle_> ditto Danielle
<Fredrick> Mag of F+SF
<cherylp> Try Asimov's. Hey, dream big!
<Joel_A> (bows to Jim
<@SLViehl> I think most SF publishers would love funny/weird SF
<Julia Pass> go to www.ralan.com and look under sf and humor and stuff. There are some markets there.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe some of the DNA Publications magazines? Not Absolitude Magnitude, though
<@SLViehl> F & SF magazine
<Fredrick> Elysian Fiction
<James> There's the Wizard of Odd anthologies, though I don't know if they are continuing or how to get in touch with them, or anything remotely useful.
<@SLViehl> DNA publications is good too
<Kaelle_> Realms of Fantasy
<James> Interzone, the British mag, does some, I think.
<cherylp> No, that's dream big, Kaelle, not impossible! <grin>
<Fredrick> Raven Electrick
<@SLViehl> You want to stay away from the more techno-scholarly mags, like what? Help me out here, group.
<Fredrick> Analog is out
<Izunya> Like Analog. I already ruled out Analog.
<Fredrick> Unless it's funny hard SF.
<Robert> Unless it's techno funny
<@SLViehl> Asimov's I imagine wouldn't be too receptive
<Fredrick> Weird Tales is out.
<Anne_Marble> I've read funny hard SF in Analog. Well it tried. ;->
<Joel_A> how about scifi.com
<Fredrick> Peridot Books possibly
<Fredrick> Alternate Realities
<Fredrick> Nuketown
<@SLViehl> Ellen Datlow seems to like eclectic stuff, she's at SciFi.com
<cherylp> Is that still going, Frederick?
<Fredrick> Which one>
<cherylp> Alternate Realities.
<Sarah> And she gives really nice rejections.
<Fredrick> Yep, just sent them a story a while back
<Fredrick> NFG, new mag
<Fredrick> Lots of comments. <a href="http://nfg.ca</a" target=_new>http://nfg.ca</a>;
<@SLViehl> You can check out the listings in Locus magazine or Locus online, <a href="http://www.locusmag.com</a" target=_new>http://www.locusmag.com</a>;
<Joel_A> Canadian mag?
<@SLViehl> Sarah, any CA mags up there?
<Robert> Some humor markets may not care if its' SF as long as it's funny
<Sarah> On Spec is pretty good
<Fredrick> Palace of Reason maybe
<Fredrick> Harpur Palate when they reopen
<Fredrick> Speclon
<Fredrick> Speculon
<Joel_A> Does Playboy still have story section?
<Sarah> You can also check out www.spicygreeniguana.com
<Fredrick> On Spec for canada
<cherylp> Playboy is faltering.
<@SLViehl> No skin rags, Joel
<Fredrick> Rogue Worlds
<@SLViehl> You don't want your work in that kind of trash
<Sarah> I have to cut all of my stuff if I want to submit to On Spec though... I just met the former Playboy fiction editor. She was really nice.
<Fredrick> I miss Digital Catapult
<cherylp> Even if they do pay good.
<Joel_A> Won't look good on the writing resume?
<@SLViehl> Well, no, it's a choice. Some skin rags do pay very well. It depends on if you have to show it to your mother, like me. Then it's out.
<cherylp> Not unless you're Big Name.
<Sally> I would enjoy being able to say I've been in playboy. Not on resume, of course.
<Fredrick> Full Unit Hook Up, run by Mark Rudolph
<Joel_A> Oh, dear, Sheila. Understood
<Ashtal> There is always the psuedonym option.
<Joel_A> Sally!
<Fredrick> And Dave Felts at SFreader.com maybe
<Robert> Gotcha. My mother hates my writing but likes Playboy, I'm in reverse situation. That could be the only thing that ever impresses her.
<@SLViehl> My mother, aka God's Inspector General.
<James> I once tried to sell a story to a naked men magazine (it really suited their fiction section): sent a female friend out to buy it for me. That's how I know she's a friend
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Izunya?
<Catherine/splodge> LOL sheila. Sounds like my mother
<Julia Pass> Dang, I gtg. Bye everyone.
<Joel_A> LOL, sheila. Hmmm. Spicy Green Ig would be a good place to start (as someone stated)
<Joel_A> night, julia
<@SLViehl> Night Julia
<Anne_Marble> Still trying to figure out how I will explain the Gorok/Wulf story to Mum
<cherylp> I'm curious, Sheila. How does she and you deal with the writing?
<Izunya> My mom would be cool with it, but my grandfather would rib me about it for the rest of my life.
<James> See you, Julia
<Fredrick> Start at the top
< Jinx> Night, Julia
<Kaelle_> Night Julia
<Izunya> <g>
<@SLViehl> I'd research the markets, see what you come up with, Izunya.
<BarGnat> night Julia
<Ashtal> Night.
<Catherine/splodge> bye Julia
<cherylp> Sheila?
<Joel_A> say Gorok was a woman in a prior life, Anne
<@SLViehl> We've already had some battles, cherylp. The fact is, it will always be a battle, but I try to stick to the writing
<Izunya> I'll look on spicygreeniguana, first; I'd known there was some good site involving reptiles, but I didn't remember what.
<@SLViehl> You can't let your family tell you how to be a writer. You'll end up at Hallmark.
<Joel_A> LOL, Izun
<cherylp> Shuddering when I think of showing some of my work to my Mom....
<Joel_A> Boo, Sheila!
<Fredrick> Argh. A fate worse than writer's block!
<Joel_A> LOL, Fred
<James> For the record, they rejected it. They liked it but thought their readers might find it too disturbing. Just to show how disturbing I can get...
<@SLViehl> Mom and I agreed she won't try to read any more of my SF, anyway . . .
<Joel_A> speaking of Hallmark: what's the news about you writing for B:tVS, Sheila?
<Izunya> So far, the only work I've ever published was called "Demonlover," thus torpedoing any and all family careers as Religious Right political candidates.
<@SLViehl> And that wraps up tonight's Think Tank. I'd like to thank everyone for a very creative session tonight, whew, you singed my eyebrows.
<Anne_Marble> I once showed a fantasy story I'd written to my cousin. She enjoyed it but then told me there was no market for that sort of thing, so why couldn't I write little stories like the ones in Redbook.
<@SLViehl> writing for who, Joel?
<Fredrick> My mom loved some of my more ribald stories.
<Izunya> And probably ruling me out of Chicken Soup anthologies for life. Not that I mind.
<Kaelle_> Buffy, he's asking, Sheila
<cherylp> LOL, Anne! Been there, done that.
<Joel_A> B:tVS = Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. Weren't you planning to write a novel?
<Anne_Marble> She couldn't understand when I told her that I wanted to write that! That's why I wrote it instead of a Redbook story.
<@SLViehl> Ah, no. Buffy is definitely not for me.
<Kaelle_> Spike is, though <g>
<Joel_A> Hmmm. Maybe it was Holly, then...
<@SLViehl> I bow to much younger, hipper writers to deal with Buffy and her bunch.
<Sarah> I still say you should have started with season one, not season five. I miss Oz.
<Jim> LOL@Kaelle
<Fredrick> I've got Anita Blake I want to try. Just bought Guilty Pleasures.
<Robert> That's the magazine I was trying to think of - Alli's story that I critted, if she bashed it up would be a Redbook story.
<Dani3> me too Sarah!
<Joel_A> LOL, Kae. She does have a pic on her website
<Izunya> *Someone here is writing for Buffy?!?* <bounce, bounce, bounce>
<@SLViehl> I like Spike though. If they ever make him the lead, somebody e-mail me.
<Kaelle_> Joel, saw it. Hmmmyum
<Izunya> <wide-eyed glow of hero-worship>
<Sarah> They did it with Angel already.
<Izunya> Okay, I'm through, now.
<Joel_A> Izun, I thought I remember Sheila has planned to try to write a novel based on the series.
<Joel_A> $$$$$$$$
<James> There's been a Spike novel -- he and Dru killing protoslayers during World War II
<@SLViehl> Nope, sorry Joel. Not for me.
<BJ Steeves> Sheila, I gotta run. Second week at the new job and the second weekend of over time. "Tanks" again for the good show!
<James> Pretty Maids All In A Row, I think was the title...
<BarGnat> Thanks for a really helpful session, Sheila and everyone... Good night
<@SLViehl> Night BJ
<Dani3> Dru must be fun to write!
<Sarah> I liked the Spike's origin crossover.
<Joel_A> Night, BJ
<@SLViehl> Night Mary
<Fredrick> Vampire cryptographers working at Bletchley Park
<Joel_A> Night, Bar
<Izunya> G'night.
<James> See you BJ, Izunya.
<cherylp> Night, everyone.
<@SLViehl> I'm going to make a transcript and get it posted -- thanks again all, and hope to see you next week.
<Kay> Thanks, Sheila, everybody!!!
<Kaelle_> Night one and all
<BJ Steeves> 'Night All!
<Ashtal> I'm fleeing too. Thank you for letting me lurk!
<Dani3> thanks Sheila!
<Joel_A> Night, Sheila.
<cherylp> Thanks, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Thanks and good night
<Ashtal> Night everyone.
<Joel_A> Night, y'all!
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<Joel_A> Time for FOOD
<Catherine/splodge> Good night everyone, thanks Sheila!
<Izunya> Really fun, everyone! I'll be here next week if I can.
James Good luck with everything, Sheila. I'll drop you an email shortly.
<Sally> 'Night, all! It was fun"
<Dani3> g'night
<Robert> Thanks, Sheila - transcript to go
<Anne_Marble> BTW Scorpion King was fun. Better than I'd hoped.
<Catherine/splodge> bye
<Kaelle_> Til next week , then. TTFN
<Anne_Marble> Not serious, not necessarily logical, but what do you want?
< Jinx> Night, all!
<James> See you all. Have a great evening, day, or whatever it is wherever you are
<Fredrick> See you space cowboys
<James> Space cowpeople?
<Jim> cowpokes?
<James> Cowpoking always sounded unsavoury to me...