Writer's Think Tank #13 -- 04/26/02

<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get this show on the road. Welcome to the Weekly Writer's Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<Anne_Marble> Linda Turner
<@SLViehl> Since we have a number of new people joining us tonight, does anyone have any questions about how the think tank works?
<Becca> Should I avoid any comments that don't relate to answers?
<James> Lord, Becca, if we have to do that, I'm sunk, and good
<CiceroCat> lol
<Peggy_Kurilla> Why, Becca? None of the rest of us do.....
<Rob> Do the questions have to be about specific projects, or can they be general writing questions?
<@SLViehl> We're very informal, Becca. Have fun
<Peggy_Kurilla> Either, Rob.
<@SLViehl> General writing questions are fine, Rob
<Becca> Will this close if I close the web page that's supporting this? (does that make sense?)
<Steven> What about colonel writing questions?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Becca--I think so.
<Steven> grin
<Robert> Yes, it does. But you can minimize it.
<@SLViehl> Yes, I think so, Becca
<Lucas> Yes, Becca, leave the gray square there.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Ouch, Steven.
<Rob> Steven: smarty...:)
<@SLViehl> cute, Steven
<Robert> If you hit the little _ instead of the X it will go sit on the Start bar and not bother ya
<Kaelle> oy, Steven
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get moving. Lucas, you're up, then Linnet, you'll be after Lucas
<Steven> thank you for all the nice reactions. It's nice to feel appreciated.
<Nathan> Anything on the start bar bothers me
<Peggy_Kurilla> hehe
<Lucas> My question:
<Lucas> What are good ways (for a person who wants to sow dissent) to use in order to convince people that their rulers are parasites, even though the rulers (who are some of the more learned people in the nation) play a vital part in keeping the society organized and running?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Disinformation.
<@SLViehl> Bad press
<Robert> Pick out one heartbreaking example of tyranny and publicize it.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Ugly rumors.
<Danielle> Draw attention to the luxuries of the rulers
<Fredrick> Do you mean literal or figurative parasites, Lucas?
<Kaelle> Rumors
<Robert> The kid that got raped by a noble.
<Becca> Religion?
<Danielle> lol Fredrick
<Lucas> Well, figurative parasites, Fredrick.
<Robert> Religion, blast em for any violation of religious strictures.
<@SLViehl> Expose stuff -- exaggerating the bad, downplaying the good.
<Peggy_Kurilla> (In this group, that's a valid question)
<Fredrick> Oh, I thought you meant like Heinlein Puppet masters.
<Kay> complain about anything and everything that hasn't been fixed yet.
<Danielle> lol Peggy, exactly
<Peggy_Kurilla> Set up a better looking alternative
<@SLViehl> Compare the noble's lifestyle with one of the common people. Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous versus Ma and Pa Kettle
<Robert> Point out to people doing heavy physical labor that nobles get paid for apparently doing nothing.
<Peggy_Kurilla> If we were in power, then....
<Kaelle> there you go, Peggy
<Kay> There are always problems and people are always very ready to believe that even the most diligent leaders could fix more problems than they are fixing
<Anne_Marble> What tech. level? Are there newspapers? Town criers? People singing ballads?
<CiceroCat> i agree--expose
<@SLViehl> good idea, Peggy
<Fredrick> Send in someone like Lenin
<James> Incite a war, which usually leads to higher takes to pay expenses -- taxes always create resentment.
<Peggy_Kurilla> And come up with a catchy slogan.
<CiceroCat> find conclusive evidence to show
<Danielle> draw attention to places where bureaucracy has let someone down
<@SLViehl> Entrapment? Set up the noble to take public fall?
<Anne_Marble> Troubadours could spread both information and misinformation.
<Lucas> Right Peggy, make a better looking alternative - The trick I'm working with is how to make a better looking alternative that is actually worse.
<Steven> ah, bureaucracy. show how bureaucratic "bloat" is making things worse.
<Kevin> find a very charismatic person to champion your cause
<Robert> Try looking at history of Bolshevik revolution.
<CiceroCat> If they are very religious uhm related rulers -- rule by the will of God, or whatever-- if they are doing sacrilege stuff--that'd be a biggie
<Peggy_Kurilla> Lucas--that's not difficult. STudy our own advertising campaigns.
<Danielle> Lie!
<Lucas> Good, entrapment. That 's always handy.
<James> Whisper in the ears of the nobles that they deserve more of everything, should have more of everything, seduce them into acting like parasites.
<Rob> Look to local and presidentail elections for ideas. There's tons of material there. <g>
<Robert> Lumping priests in with nobles gets you totalitarian the revolutionaries are in charge.
<Lucas> Right Peggy. That's true.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Look how they make alcohol look appealing, when too much of it can kill you.
<Nathan> have a bombing rigged so that it looks like one of the rulers bombed something important to that culture/planet i.e. food stores, a public place where there are a lot of innocent people etc.
<@SLViehl> Hitler got the trains running on time, Lucas, and everyone had jobs. People thought he was wonderful -- in the beginning.
<Danielle> Hire actors to help you frame them
<Kaelle> good one, James
<Fredrick> Have the nobles impregnate peasant women, then refuse to support the children/
<Peggy_Kurilla> Very good, James.
<CiceroCat> get a gathering or go to a tavern and offer free food and refreshment for coming to a meeting
<Robert> Hitler did that to start WWII - sent German troops in Polish uniforms to "invade" as an excuse to invade Poland!
<CiceroCat> lots of people may go to meetings and then they'll believe what the speaker says maybe if he's a good speaker
<Nathan> Politics: it's the downfall of half the places that I can think of
<Peggy_Kurilla> Robert--excellent example.
<Anne_Marble> Rumors are good. People used to hire professional rumormongerers. (That's now illegal.) However, it often backfired. You see, when rumors spread, the details are sometimes twisted. The rumor that Joe's Tavern waters down the beer might be about your inn next week.
<Robert> Yes. Charismatic leader very simple slogans.
<Lucas> That's an interesting point Robert!
<Lucas> Something similar could play in quite well.
<Fredrick> Have leaders who pass laws that make no sense.
<@SLViehl> Enciting the bottom rungs of society isn't difficult -- no one likes living in poverty
<James> Look into the way the Church went after Mary Queen of Scots -- it's a nice glimpse of a pre-tech society using propaganda against a reigning monarch.
<Kay> Go back and find out what Nixon did and do that -- lie saying that the rulers have called important constituencies bad names
<Danielle> Accuse them of something illegal
<@SLViehl> Nice example, James
<Robert> Accuse them of something unthinkable - hence child abuse. Get an urchin to cry rape.
<Nathan> What type of Parasites?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Think of how the Inquisition operated, too.
<CiceroCat> or set up something -- like an attempted murder on someone important and frame the ruler
<Fredrick> Or worse, steal the peasants' food.
<Rob> How about a false prophocy of some kind?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Get a few false plants to admit horrible stuff, and that's all she wrote.
<Robert> Yes. It helps to set up a proto KGB
<Danielle> Turn around their greatest triumph so that it looks hollow, or pointless, or wasteful
<Anne_Marble> Hire crowds to riot, just like the Iranians
<@SLViehl> Actually, Robert, child abuse has never been decried much throughout history.
<CiceroCat> god one robert-- especially if the urchin has a kid they can claim is the ruler's
<Robert> That's true, that's more a modern phenomenon.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Neither, for that matter, spousal abuse or elder abuse.
<CiceroCat> ah
<Fredrick> Elect puppet officials.
<@SLViehl> Child homicide, on the other hand . . .
<Fredrick> Then have them pass terrible laws.
<Robert> But nobles taking commoners wives will incite, and yes, child homicide.
<Steven> yeah. if it's the bad people making trouble, they won't mind killing a few street children.
<Peggy_Kurilla> The old Prima Nocta idea, eh, Robert?
<CiceroCat> ooh, i thought of a novel i bought--claim the ruler is a pedophile or something
<Kevin> or accuse them of something taboo in that particular society or culture
<Fredrick> Want to P.O. the people fast? Shut down all the brothels.
<@SLViehl> Convince the nobles to tax the poor, then tell the poor they're been unfairly taxed. Tag team them.
<CiceroCat> that he molests his own children
<Anne_Marble> Have a ruler get sick (like the Russian premiers used to do) and have them cover it up but be obvious about it.
<Danielle> Do you want them to look like parasites or criminals? Or both?
<Peggy_Kurilla> LOL Fredrick
<Robert> Generally most of history if the noble allegedly did it to a boy it would be that decried.
<@SLViehl> ouch, good one, Fredrick
<CiceroCat> LOL fred
<Kaelle> lol Fredrick
<Lucas> I suppose that if the spy could get himself into a semi-ruling position, he could do all kinds of things and pass them off as official directives and end up leading a revolt himself because all the blame had been foisted off.
<@SLViehl> food, sex, alcohol, and religion are all stuff people want. Deprive them of two or three
<Robert> That and noble murdering preist or desecrating church will get them if your revolutionaries aren't Atheists.
<CiceroCat> oh yeah, outlaw sex and alcohol
<Fredrick> Unless they're Puritans, then just claim the rulers are possessed by demons or the Devil.
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Lucas?
<James> Attack they social assumption which gives the rulers power. If there's an assumption that God gives them their authority, find theological arguments that call that into question.
<Anne_Marble> How are positions passed along? Are they inherited? What if someone who is retarded becomes the ruler? (It did happen in history. It was covered up.)
<CiceroCat> (er prostitution, not marital sex or anything)
<Robert> Pick a few worst case nobles and start a hate campaign.
<James> they = the
<Robert> Then some public heroes and martyrs.
<Becca> Have someone cry racism.
<@SLViehl> I like attacking the poor and blaming it on the nobles. The poor are great revolutionaries
<Robert> Only work in a modern world, Becca
<Kay> CJ Cherry has a good disinformation plot in Cyteen, where one candidate is alleged to be against a retirement bill at a time criticalmoment so that denial can't bee effective
<Becca> True, Robert.
<Robert> Those organizing should at least claim to be poor.
<Fredrick> Not always, Sheila. If they can't afford guns and food.
<CiceroCat> that'd be really good becca, especially if the ruler is shown as an advocate of a "color blind" society
<Anne_Marble> They used to practically have to prop the ruler up and show him how to wave, then get him out of view. What would they do if that was discovered?
<CiceroCat> hey-- what if he's stealing funds
<CiceroCat> the ruler
<Robert> Hitler got in on "The govt isn't racist enough!
<Nathan> A crazy dude runs around the streets sayng thet the rulers are bad
<CiceroCat> they people would hate that
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all you upstart rebels for some great ideas -- Linnet, do you have a question for the group to discuss tonighttonight?
<Lucas> True Robert, Racism might only work in the modern world, but it has always been easy to incite war/rioting along racist lines.
<Nathan> nobody will beleive him at first
<Linnet> <<utterly awed>>
<Lucas> Thanks to everyone for the ideas.
<Fredrick> Slave rebellions.
<Nathan> Your welcome
<Robert> Are the revolutionaries bad guys or good guys? If they're good guys, show martyrs and incidents of provocation that are real.
<Linnet> lol Nathan> Heres your brain back
<CiceroCat> lol
<Nathan> Thanks
<@SLViehl> Linnet, do you have a question for the group?
<Nathan> I'll need it
<Robert> (Sorry, just read Vincalis)
<Linnet> Umm, not right now, no
<@SLViehl> Okay, then Fredrick, you're up, and Catherine, you're after Fredrick
<CiceroCat> man, i have to read that book soon, robert-- i bought it, but i decided to try Brooks book first
<Fredrick> I have a future society where people aren't allowed to bring gender into the workplace.
<CiceroCat> mistake-- i rather read Vincalis now
<Peggy_Kurilla> As a hiring criterion?
<Fredrick> And someone exposes two employees who bring gender in, only it [she] is punished for it.
<Steven> what do you mean, "bring gender in"?
<CiceroCat> so you mean--a work place is one gender only?
<Anne_Marble> Do you mean they have to be androgynous? Or pretend to be?
<Fredrick> You literally leave your gender at the door.
<@SLViehl> They break unisex standards of dress, appearance?
<Rob> You mean people can't tell what gender they are?
<Lucas> Do they turn into neuters from 9 to 5?
<CiceroCat> oh so you pretend you are neither male nor female
<Robert> I gather they're supposed to.
<Danielle> What's the question, Fredrick?
<Lucas> Detachable organs?
<Kaelle> Dress code? DNA thingie?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Lucas--OUCH. No thank you.
<CiceroCat> oops maybe we're flooding fred lol
<Anne_Marble> Imagine what the lost and found looks like. ;->
<Robert> Bulky clothing and formal androgynous behavior would do it.
<@SLViehl> Hang on, everyone, let's get to Fredrick's question
<Fredrick> Yes, flooding, hang on a sec
<Fredrick> How can my employee get back at the people who set her up?
<Becca> Expose them as bringing gender into the workplace.
<Rob> ditto becca
<Kaelle> Any other rules that they could be set up for in breaking?
<Fredrick> In other words, when she tried to expose them for bringing gender into the workplace, how can she beat them?
<@SLViehl> Do the same to them at a really, really important meeting
<CiceroCat> you said two brought gender in, but only one is punished?
<Anne_Marble> Put something in the water that makes them show up their gender.
<Nathan> Linnet: are you sure this isn't a fake version of my brain?
<Robert> Do you mean they romanced at work?
<Fredrick> No, the exposer is punished and told that she is making false claims.
<Fredrick> When she isn't.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Set up a situation in which the Bad Guy is exposed for something at least as bad, if not worse. Say, funneling corporate funds?
<Anne_Marble> Maybe little wireless cameras all over the place...
<CiceroCat> ah thnx for clarifying..... hmmm.... do the same back to him
<BarGnat> I want to know HOW they brought gender in.... what did they do?
<CiceroCat> get him exposed for doing something "gender-ery"
<Rob> Somehow FORCE them to bring up their gender at work. Make it so they have to do it on their own, though.
<@SLViehl> Let's clarify something -- Fredrick, when you say "leave your gender at the door" do you mean physically transform yourself into a unisex creature, or assume the appearance of an "it"?
<Fredrick> I was thinking pulling the boss's pants down at an apology meeting.
<Robert> This world building question hangs a lot on what you want to do with the level of penalties for the problem.
<Linnet> ...A psyche report on how men's and women's minds work differently
<Anne_Marble> Change the law when they're not looking.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Anne--retroactive laws? That could be nasty indeed.
<Nathan> Hi JamiJo
<Kay> Set up a rival business and run them into the ground
<Fredrick> You step through an androgenizer field when you enter work.
<Robert> Hi JamiJo
<Peggy_Kurilla> De-activate said field.
<Danielle> Hi JamiJo
<Peggy_Kurilla> Make EVERYONE break the rules.
<Fredrick> And you step through a deandrogenizer field on the way out.
<Robert> Ick, does that have physical effects? Or psychological?
<Robert> Does the deandrogynizer occasionally screw up and assign the wrong sex?
<@SLViehl> So if you put something on the boss that neutralizes the androgenizer, wouldn't it turn into a he/she when triggered by a remote device?
<Anne_Marble> Hire somebody to mess up the field. Some go through it and get their own gender, others get another gender instead. Sit back and get some popcorn. ;->
<Danielle> Tinker with the machine and hold bosses' genders hostage!
<CiceroCat> she could do a protest -- not let anyone into the business unles they start revising policy
<Fredrick> Also sex is completely forbidden and she discovered the couple having a quickie in the bathroom.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Twisted and perverted thought--send someone still female (or male) through the deandrogenizer... would make her/him MORE OBVIOUSLY her/his gender.
<Nathan> Go on strike against said workplace
<Steven> prove how the two got around the androgynizer.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Show porn films in the break room.
<James> If androgeny is one end of the spectrum of what the machine can do, maybe the other end is to ultra-genderize people passing through it, wildly exagerrating their sexual characteristics.
<CiceroCat> a strike or a picket-- I'm sure someone will do that.... or, if she's a business-y person-- she can set up a rival company and drive the other's out of business
<Peggy_Kurilla> When the bad guy is watching...
<Peggy_Kurilla> James--GMTA
<Fredrick> The couple have a device which can change gender outside of a field, plus the supervisor helped them.
<James> They do, Peggy
<Peggy_Kurilla> Oh, then I'd go for the supervisor.
<Fredrick> In my society anti-sexual harrassment laws have gone basically berserk.
<@SLViehl> Security cameras -- she pulls tapes that show the couple being indiscreet in several places, then switches the tape for their sales presentation
<Peggy_Kurilla> Get the supervisor in hot water so he has to blame someone else or lose his own job.
<Fredrick> Which is why they don't allow gender.
<Robert> Will they ultimately change the forced androgyny law?
<Becca> Can they change to a gender different than their original?
<BarGnat> I'd go over the supervisor's head and do a stake-out on all three of them
<Danielle> Use the device inside the workplace, since they've got it
<Peggy_Kurilla> LOL Sheila
<CiceroCat> god one sheila
<Fredrick> Also studies have shown that non-gendered workers perform better.
<Robert> rofl Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Fredrick?
<Becca> I love the idea.
<Fredrick> Good idea, except tapes would be guarded and she is suspended, so no access.
<Robert> Sounds like "devolution toward the Hive" and a countergroup might want only a few fertile females bearing all the kids, while drones are supported...
<@SLViehl> I'd go with showing them as the hypocrites that they are. Expose their gender activities.
<CiceroCat> it's a neat idea, fred....
<James> Just that Fredrick comes up will killer world ideas!
<Linnet> "Gattica" comes to mind
<Fredrick> I also have a Sexual Orientation Selector in the story.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Fred--SO? Enterprising people could get the tapes anyway.
<CiceroCat> neat
<Fredrick> So you can be gay one day and striaght the next.
<Robert> If neutered workers are more efficient it's restructuring humanity toward a wasp lifestyle and might be rejected at the... oooh like that Fredrick!
<Becca> Can you change it?
<Nathan> Chalenge the bad guy to a fight...whoever loses/wins is right
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some interesting ideas. Catherine, you're up, and Becca, you'll b after Catherine
<Anne_Marble> Does she suspect something might go wrong? Maybe she planted her own wireless cameras "just in case" she is fired. Then she can activate them later.
<CiceroCat> she could have a friend who would be willing to help her-- one who works there or willl get hired to do this expose thingy
<Fredrick> Also people have neuter names like J.A. 79,
<Fredrick> No real names are allowed.
<Catherine/splodge> Ok, this week I do actually have aquestion...
<Fredrick> Shoot.
<@SLViehl> Sock it to us
<Robert> Do some people decide they're happier neuter and keep it aafter they leave?
<Catherine/splodge> Its about the end of my novel
<Catherine/splodge> I've broken the novel into two, and need to decide how much of a cliffhanger to leave for the next one
<@SLViehl> Can you give us a short description of the ending as it now stands?
<CiceroCat> will there be more than two books in this series, splodge?
<Robert> Catherine - I know it's your first book, I'd really recommend against the cliff hanger because if they don't buy part two, readers are stuck on the cliff hanger.
<Catherine/splodge> There are two at the moment, but I have at least one more in mind
<Peggy_Kurilla> I'd suggest wrapping up as much of the main storyline as possible in book one.
<CiceroCat> I dunno--cliffhangers make me buy-- i bought Maggie Fureys books for that reason
<Fredrick> Personally I dislike cliffhangers.
<Linnet> i.e.Linda Evans
<Catherine/splodge> Ok, let me describe the ending.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Because of what Robert said.
<@SLViehl> hang on all, let Catherine give us a rundown on her ending.
<Becca> Make them interested in the next book, but with some amount of conclusion.
<CiceroCat> How bout a minor clifhanger... a semi resolution, but that it could really go another way too
<CiceroCat> eep sorry
<Robert> They won the battle... but not the war...
<Catherine/splodge> Femal Mc has been held prisoner in this country, and she has been in a relationship with the King
<Catherine/splodge> She finally decides that she has to leave this realtionship and try and go home
<Nathan> Hi Emily
<Catherine/splodge> Unbeknownst to her, she is pregnant with the child of the King
<Catherine/splodge> and the King finds out about her escaping and sends one of the other characters after her to get her back
<CiceroCat> hi jami , emily
<Peggy_Kurilla> I'd end with her escape.
<Becca> THAT could easily be the cliffhanger. She could leave and have resolved everything mentally, but then give some indication that she's pregnant and leave there.
<Peggy_Kurilla> It wraps up the story, but you can easily pick up with her discovering her pregnancy in the next book.
<Kaelle> ditto, Becca
<Robert> Now that's a cliffhanger that's not too bad. Makes me want book next but her discovery's a good opener!
<Anne_Marble> Janet Evanovich solved the mystery at the end of one of her books but left in a "relationship cliffhanger." It had people talking. (But the second & third time, this wasn't as popular.)
<Catherine/splodge> The novel has a real climax in her decision, but there is more to come in that you see the other MC come after her
<CiceroCat> oh yeah-- she discovers she's pregnant in the end of the novel
<BarGnat> Does she love the King?
<Catherine/splodge> and you get the fact that she is pregnant
<CiceroCat> (novel no 1)
<Fredrick> Right at the end, the hunter traps her and tells her she is pregnant.
<Danielle> Perhaps if the pregnancy has some 'meaning' within the context of the first book, readers will feel that its a conclusion of sorts, but still be curious.
<Becca> It seems like the "going after her" part is a big part of the cliffhanger because that puts her in physical danger.
<Catherine/splodge> BG - yes. But there is no way she can have a relationship with him
<CiceroCat> would hte King know before the herself, though, fred?
<Fredrick> Does she give birth at the end?
<Fredrick> Of the first book.
<Catherine/splodge> pregnancy is massive complication for her, and for almost everyone else
<Linnet> Good one, Danielle.... the seventh son of the seventh son, and she's carrying number seven!
<Catherine/splodge> the child is potentially the kings legitimate heir
<Fredrick> Why potentially?
<@SLViehl> I'd end a story like that with her knowing she's pregnant, and on the way home. Then bring up all the complications in the beginning of book two
<CiceroCat> well, you could add something like-- make it a delimma--show her thoughts about her indecision in the end so it's more than just a resolution, but a mini cliff hanger
<Robert> That would certainly improve her chances of a legitimate relationship with the King then!
<Danielle> The book as it stands will end on the feeling that surely he will drag her back, if she's carrying an heir
<James> I'd go with letting her leave, but cut to the King, entirely off subject, hearing that he's lost altogether different and minor, monstrously overreacting and saying nothing he hates more than losing what's his...
<Peggy_Kurilla> Would be the king's heir if the king sired no other children, right?
<Robert> I like ending on the escape. You could even save "send the hunter" to the next volume.
<Catherine/splodge> Well, I already know what is going to happen in book 2
<CiceroCat> would your novel be long enough if you ended it with her knowledge of her state?
<BarGnat> Sort of internalizing the "I must leave you, my love, but I carry part of you with me".... the end
<Fredrick> End at a literal and figurative crossroad.
<@SLViehl> The one thing you have to be careful about is not having too much of a cliffhanger. The novel needs to be standalone to sell to an editor.
<Catherine/splodge> Isabel was living as the King's concubine, but not as his wife
<CiceroCat> if you do multi points of view you could end it with the King deciding to send the hunter
<Danielle> I think bringing in the character hunting her may make the ending feel anti-climactic, it's the beginning of a new set of events
<Becca> I agree with Sheila. I
<Catherine/splodge> which by the law of that country means he can make the child legitimate
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Catherine?
<Robert> Yeah. I'd save both the hunter and the discovery for opener of Book Two, they're great hooks!
<Rob> I agree, Daniell
<Catherine/splodge> ithe King has no other children
<Becca> IMO it should end with the reader (but not her) finding out about the pregnancy.
<Robert> But leave the king sad.
<CiceroCat> neat--splodge.... I like the idea
<Peggy_Kurilla> I'd still say have her discover the pregnancy and everything following from that in book two.
<Fredrick> Best cliffhanger offhand, Best of Both Worlds, ST: TNG. Everything was at stake.
<Robert> Show the King's feelings about her being gone but not the order for the hunter.
<Lucas> I'm still wondering along with CiceroCat - How would the king know she was pregnant if she didn't? I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it should be addressed.
<@SLViehl> I'd focus on the relationship between the King and your MC as the standalone story for the first novel. In the second, focus on how the child changes them and forces them back together (or whatever happens)
<CiceroCat> but dont' forget to drop hints of what will happen in book two in book one-- subtle ones, but ones the reader will look back at and say *doh! i should have seen that*
<Anne_Marble> "Black Sun Rising" ended with the hero and the anti-hero defeating the evil but then realizing there was something behind it. The last chapter had them meet again later to find it.
<Fredrick> That's good, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Hi Katherine
<Fredrick> Life after flight.
<@SLViehl> thanks, Fredrick
<CiceroCat> hi katherine
<Robert> Hi Katherine!
<Danielle> Hi Katherine
<Katherine> <slips into empty seat in back row>
<Catherine/splodge> Hi Katherine
<CiceroCat> ooh that is a good idea sheila
<Catherine/splodge> Ok, so leave out the chase?
<Nathan> Hi Katherine
<Fredrick> Is the King a good man?
<Katherine> Sorry I'm late. Was finishing something.
<Becca> I think so.
<Danielle> Catherine, personal opinion, I think so
<Kay> Hello Katherine
<Catherine/splodge> Fred - in his own way. None of them are perfectly good or bad
<@SLViehl> I would, Catherine -- wrap it up with her leaving for home, no chase until book 2
<CiceroCat> yeah, i'd go with something like sheila's suggestion, splodge
<Kaelle> I think so, too splodge
<Robert> I'm with Sheila on it.
<Fredrick> And does she love him at all?
<Nathan> Either I don't count very good, or there is 26 people here
<Linnet> yes she does
<Becca> Chase would be a good way to quickly get the action going in Book 2
<CiceroCat> the king sounds kinda obsessive
<Robert> Her decision is something interesting as an end to the book. Duty over love. Sad but admirable.
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some solid ideas -- Becca, have you got a question for the group tonight?
<Danielle> Start with the hunter in Book 2, sinister!
<CiceroCat> if so, that may be a god thing to add in first book-signs of obsession
<@SLViehl> good point, Danielle
<Catherine/splodge> Yes, she does love the King - yes the King is getting a bit obsessive (which becomes important later on)
<Becca> Yup. Hang on, this could get a little long because I have to give background.
<Rob> 24
<CiceroCat> god= good lol
<@SLViehl> You've got about 7 minutes, Becca
<CiceroCat> lol
<James> 24, by the groupboard count, Nathan.
<Fredrick> No pressure.
<Becca> I have a supporting male character whose father has gone missing several years ago. He wants to find him. How can I do this so it's not cliched?
<Fredrick> Is this SF or F?
<Fredrick> Or H?
<@SLViehl> Can you give us a little background on your novel, Becca?
<Katherine> Why does he want to find him?
<Peggy_Kurilla> I'd say change his motivation for wanting to find his father.
<Robert> I don't think that's cliched. I think people with missing relatives do want to find them.
<Becca> Fantasy.
<Becca> The father disappeared by supernatural means when assassinating a girl. He is generally a good peson, loves his son, and he killed the girl because he thought she would be harmful to the world (she is also supernatual). The male character doesn't know any of that. The father will reappear during the course of the story. Lastly, the supporting male character is slightly psychic
<Robert> Characterization is why it can go beyond cliche.
<Nathan> Cliched?
<Becca> He cares about his father.
<Lucas> Do you mean that you want the character's reasons for looking for his father to not be common?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Instead of trying to find him because he loves his father so much, maybe he has to find his father only because somebody else wants the father.
<Fredrick> Psychic echoes.
<CiceroCat> what if the father is ill or has alzhemiers.. . add a twist to why the father leaves would make it not quite so cliche--but i didn't seem cliche to me anyway
<Fredrick> A variant on what Sheila did with Maggie in Stardoc.
<Robert> Okay. Then that's fairly deep. They had a good relationship, Dad did something incomprehensible apprently against character, then he wants to find him and find out why - makes sense.
<Danielle> How much does the main character know about the father's disappearance? Nothing at all, or a false version of events?
<Becca> Partially, Lucas, but partially just do more than the typical "my dear dad disappeared." What could have happened to this guy, and how could he reappear?
<Becca> Is that too general of a question?
<Peggy_Kurilla> I think Robert hit it--
<Fredrick> Sorry if I got the name wrong, Sheila.
<Robert> It already is. "My dad went crazy and killed this woman and disappeared. I need to know why. "
<Becca> Me too.
<CiceroCat> neat becca, i just reread what you posted on background
<Fredrick> maybe a clue at the girl's grave.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Yep, Robert. Something like that.
<Lucas> The dad could have told everyone he was going to vanish. Announced it for years ahead of time, but no one believed him, until one day -- Poof!
<Katherine> Give him a bigger reason to go looking for Dad.
<@SLViehl> I think one uncovential approach is to have your MC search for the father by listening to bard songs
<Peggy_Kurilla> Oooh, Lucas, good one!
<Danielle> Why now? Why's he looking now?
<CiceroCat> hmmm, what if someone is hunting the boy-- revenge agiainst the son for the sins of the father
<Peggy_Kurilla> Sheila--that's good.
<CiceroCat> and now, the son doesn't know what's happening and he's gonna find his father to find out why
<Fredrick> What if the father left residual magic in every woman he sired?
<James> I think there needs to be a contemporary reason for the search -- some present day accusation against the father by the girl's family, or pressure from his family, something to up the motivation slightly.
<Robert> If the boy's been looking all along then his finally finding him is a payoff. He'd have been looking from the day it happened.
<Katherine> Exactly, CC. Or maybe father was witness to something and son needs to know what really happened.
<Becca> Danielle-because now he's gotten some kind of evidence that his father is around or a message from him.
<Katherine> (I'm using that in my WIP.)
<CiceroCat> or maybe, someone kidnapped a close one to the son and now he has to find the father or else the person dies
<Linnet> If the father was able to assassinate someone, he's probably got connections and can hide effectively until the furor dies down. If your MC finds clues suggesting that the father did this thing, he would want to find him to discover what would drive him to do such a thing in the first place
<Robert> Introduce the search along with the secondary male char. right off. New evidence brings it foreground.
<Peggy_Kurilla> And if the boy's been looking all along, then it seems to me that finding him should set off something else.
<@SLViehl> If he's a criminal, he's going to live the life of a criminal, even in hiding -- so the travelling bards might carry tales of him (a significant scar, etc.)
<Nathan> How old is the boy "now" and how old was he "then"?
<CiceroCat> ransom type thing
<Danielle> Becca, make that evidence scary, incomplete, misleading or mysterious
<Peggy_Kurilla> Or all of the above, Danielle.
<CiceroCat> oooh, what if the son has the same "curse" or whatever hte father seen as dangerous
<Fredrick> A magic tattoo.
<James> Perhaps his father shows up -- he doesn't believe it's him, decides to find the real one.
<CiceroCat> and his father studied it, and he wants help from dad
<@SLViehl> Or have someone who wishes to get revenge on the father use the boy to go after him.
<Danielle> Cool, James!
<Robert> I'm weird. Ever since I heard Les Miserables and realized it was a classic, I realized cliches can work if you raise the stakes on them.
<Fredrick> Good one, Sheila.
<CiceroCat> neat robert
<BarGnat> Since the MC is slightly psychic, have him with recurring dreams that his father is calling for him...
<Peggy_Kurilla> Robert--weirdness is a good thing.
<Becca> I don't know if he's even alive completely. The girl who he killed (it didn't completely work) is supposed to bring the apocolypse, and when she disappeared into magic, the father disappeared along the same time.
<CiceroCat> neat idea james
<Katherine> Perhaps his father is looking for him instead of the other way around, which gives son a psychic compulsion to go looking.
<Danielle> Someone is actually using the boy's hunt for their own ends, but on the way he actually DOES find his father
<Fredrick> He left a piece of himself inside the boy.
<CiceroCat> maybe he's being haunted by the father--psychic impressions
<Peggy_Kurilla> Hm. Then maybe the son finds the girl instead of the father...
<Robert> That's anything but cliche. Also psychic connection parent child is well known.
<Anne_Marble> OOoh, that's good Sheila. Didn't the plot of the first Andrew Vacchss novel involve a molestor who used the private eye to find the daughter who ran away?
<@SLViehl> You have to decide those issues, Becca, before you plan the hunt, I think
<Lucas> Just because someone has the resources to kill someone, doesn't mean he can anticipate everything that might be done in retaliation. Even a clever crime can be turned upside down by a bit of bad luck.
<Becca> Danielle-that works with my story, considering his powers.
<Fredrick> Hamlet's father haunted the prince.
<Nathan> How old is the MC "now" and how old was he "then"?
<@SLViehl> Never read that one, Anne, sorry. Chinatown the movie was like that, though
<Becca> Which issues, Sheila? I'm getting lost in the chat.
<Becca> He's 18-20, was 14-16 then.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Becca--no sweat. Check the transcript tomorrow.
<Anne_Marble> Vacchss makes Chinatown look like a romp. ;->
<@SLViehl> What I meant was, you need to decide who, what, and where the father is before you start the hunt for him.
<Danielle> He may meet his father but not be able to bring him back, if he's in an underworld, or trapped somewhere
<Peggy_Kurilla> We ALL get lost in the chat.....
<CiceroCat> lol, it does go by fast the chat does-- i never get the chance to answer everyone's qs on my q
<Becca> Okay, true.
<Robert> Becca, that makes it even more plausible - that's search for identity on son's part.
<Rob> Vacchss is pretty gritty. But almost laughably so, I think. I just couldn't finish that book.
<@SLViehl> Define the goal and then figure out how to get to it.
<Robert> He may think he hates him, but he really wants to know why and see father vindicated. Love-hate is not dull!
<CiceroCat> hmmm... he'd need a strong motivation to leave suddenly now... so many years afterwards....
<Nathan> I tend to transcribe the answers to my questions...thats when I Reaaly read them
<Nathan>
<Fredrick> Does the father feel any remorse at killing the girl, despite her evil nature?
<James> The girl could be somehow egging him on -- figuring if he gets his father out of wherever they are, she can hitch a ride.
<Becca> There's admiration, but probably some resentment because he disappeared.
<CiceroCat> what if, in your society, if the father can not be punished, the son will for the crime and the boy believes dad is innocent
<CiceroCat> so he's off to go get dad to prove theya re innocent
<Katherine> Maybe his father's sins are affecting his life in some way.
<Nathan> reaaly=really
<Robert> CC that's neat!!
<Becca> A lot, Frederick. This girl doesn't have any clue about her evil nature and is a really good person.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Becca?
<Danielle> CC, that's great
<Kaelle> cool, CC
<Robert> I've gotta use that in a culture sometime too!
<CiceroCat>
<Fredrick> Could her evil have be purged? What if the father found a better way after he killed her?
<CiceroCat> hey they have that eye for an eye thingy so... why not
<Becca> (the subplot is that the girl he "killed" was my MC's best friend. She has little sympanthy for Dad, or even Rouan once she finds this out)
<@SLViehl> I'd have the father alive but lost in a kind of limbo -- only able to materialize at night or under special conditions. Then I'd have a vengeful enemy of the father send the son after him, and use bard songs as clues to where he (the father) manifests.
<Danielle> What if he went with her to save her after he killed her?
<Becca> Maybe, Frederick. That's another possibility.
<Katherine> Try writing the reason for the assassination from the father's POV. Truth and what he told son may differ.
<Fredrick> Or maybe in an insane asylum.
<Robert> And what others told son too
<Kaelle> neat, Sheila
<Becca> Great idea, Sheila!
<Peggy_Kurilla> Katherine--and what the Official Story is, too.
<CiceroCat> neat-- like limbos
<Katherine> Exactly, Peggy.
<@SLViehl> Really sounds like a fun story, Becca, run with it.
<CiceroCat> neat ideas becca about the friendship/relationship
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for a plethura of great ideas -- Nathan, you're up, James, you're after Nathan
<Nathan> This is a little long
<Becca> Wow...thanks so much to everyone.
<Nathan> Would it be realistic for about four or five guards to go into a wine celler where there are approx. 190 Siuqam - people rebeling against what the guards stand for - get knocked out, then have the Siuqam take the armor and put it on as a disquise, then roam around the castle claiming that they had taken approx. 185 Siuqam prisoner? Would there be 190 people in the wine celler in the first place?
<CiceroCat> the boy could find a diary of the father btw ...
<Nathan> You are welcome becca
<CiceroCat> ok.... cool either fast typer or copy and paster nathan....
<Peggy_Kurilla> Nathan--No way could five guards hold 185 prisoner.
<Katherine> 190 people is a heck of a wine cellar.
<Peggy_Kurilla> And what Katherine just said.
<Robert> Nathan, it would not be that likely with most wine cellars. 20 or 30 maye.
<Becca> BRB, emergency cleaning of car
<Robert> maybe
<Nathan> That's what I was thinking
<Fredrick> I don't think it would work, Nathan.
<@SLViehl> That's a pretty packed wine cellar. I'd make in a dungeon, Nathan
<Catherine/splodge> It would get very hot
<Danielle> They could take a handful as pretend prisoners, though
<James> They could with magic.
<CiceroCat> what if it had a secret tunnel?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Unless those 185 were REALLY timid or the 5 had REALLY BAD weapons.
<CiceroCat> they could be in the secret tunnel most of them
<Danielle> lol Peggy
<Peggy_Kurilla> BAD = BIG. Oops.
<Steven> most wine cellars are pretty small.
<Nathan> It does..that how they got there
<Anon_27> an aqueduct
<Anne_Marble> Black Hole of Calcutta
<@SLViehl> They could smuggle out 185 people through a secret passage, and set up straw dummies to look like the prisoners.
<Robert> If the gang conceal most of them it could work.
<CiceroCat> yeah-- make the guards have majorally strong weapons or the prisoners be emaciated or something
<Robert> Ooh like that Sheila!
<Fredrick> Are they starving or drunk on the wine?
<@SLViehl> One thing they have a lot of in dungeons is straw.
<Nathan> Who? the guards
<Katherine> Does the castle know how many prisoners there are? Could claim the number was less than 190.
<Robert> Or they could escort them out in groups of a dozen at a time with the uniformed false guards doing many trips.
<Fredrick> No, the people.
<Danielle> Do you need there to be 190 of them?
<Robert> I take it the wine cellar connects with catacombs or something.
<@SLViehl> oh, Robert, yeah, catacombs connected to the cellar.
<Peggy_Kurilla> And, oh, yeah, remember to knock out the old man in the wine cellar whose job it is to rotate the bottles.
<Fredrick> At least it isn't the privy.
<CiceroCat> ooh what about danger of a fire
<@SLViehl> one way to fit more people in there
<Robert> But naturally more parties means more risk real gards will step in to help ...
<CiceroCat> the prisoners are doused in oil, the guards have fire
<CiceroCat> i wouldn't get near the guards
<James> Turn the 190 in wine bottles
<Fredrick> Ooh, wicked, CC
<Robert> though if they win again that gets them more uniforms!
<@SLViehl> You could also use dead bodies from the catacombs as dummies for the escaped prisoners
<Peggy_Kurilla> And alcohol is majorly flammable.
<Nathan> I dunno...would it be an effective force with less...would it be an effective idea if I were to have ha;f go in a first then the other half later?
<Becca> Back...thank God, Mom didn't decide to take the Camry...
<Peggy_Kurilla> Sheila's getting good.....
<@SLViehl> Twisted, CC
<Robert> Casks. The big casks wine's stored in could hold a couple of people each.
<James> Ahem, into wine bottles.
<@SLViehl> I'm evil, Peggy
<CiceroCat> i try my best... snickers to herself evilly
<Peggy_Kurilla> Sheila--that's why I like you. <g>
<CiceroCat> i like that--hide them in casks
<Fredrick> What if the wine held the people's souls?
<Anne_Marble> How about a spell that magically moves the wine into the prisoner's bloodstreams? ;->
<CiceroCat> and they drank the wine? lol neat
<James> Drink, and their life flows through your mind.
<Peggy_Kurilla> CC--when the casks were moved, they'd move differently with people in them vs. wine.
<Robert> Widespread alcohol poisoning ends the revolution...
<Peggy_Kurilla> LOL Robert
<CiceroCat> true....
<Lucas> I feel lost. Why do the Siquams want to impersonate guards?
<Nathan> LOL Robert
<Robert> Which is why some of the escappes arre dreassed as servants...
<Fredrick> lol, Robert
<CiceroCat> to escape?
<@SLViehl> If you want a flammable substance, wine can be, with a high enough alcohol content
<Robert> You have uniformed guards, liveried servants and casks moving out.
<Katherine> Massive hangovers inspire berserk rage. Revolution reborn!
<CiceroCat> true
<@SLViehl> and that homemade peasant wine was very high in alcohol
<CiceroCat> bonfire time
<Robert> "We are taking this shipment of wine to X castle for Lord Whoozis.
<Robert> roflmao!
<Peggy_Kurilla> Sheila--even with a relatively low alcohol content, it will burn. Burns out fast, but will burn.
<James> Lord whoozy, surely...
<Anon_27> If there was massive recruitment for the revolution, then I could see a large meeting that a few guards stumbled in on...
<Danielle> Nathan, are they invading the castle?
<Peggy_Kurilla> LOL James
<Lucas> It could be for escape, but I don't really know. What about it, Nathan?
<CiceroCat> LOL lord Whoozy
<Anne_Marble> Been making Molotov cocktails, Peggy? ;->
<Peggy_Kurilla> No, cherries Jubilee.
<Robert> Yes, what's the goal after this scene, Nathan? To get into the castle or out of it?
<@Jim> It's actually the alcohol fumes over the liquid that burn.
<CiceroCat> lol
<Nathan> That would be a bad ending...I mean seriously <Sarcasm> With such a large build up people are going to be on the edge of their seatswaiting for the ending</sarcasm>
<Anne_Marble> :->
<@SLViehl> I'm going over to Peggy's house for dessert
<Nathan> To kill the evil oppressor
<CiceroCat> lol
<Robert> If they're attacking the castle, Molotovs with brandy and rags might be a GOOD idea.
<Peggy_Kurilla> (And Jim has to go get technical.... <g> and <hug>)
<Nathan> Yes danielle
<@Jim> lol Peggy!
<CiceroCat> neat--but if someone recoginizes teh guards aren't their buddies....
<CiceroCat> do they have helmets to wear?
<Anon_27> So go at night...
<Fredrick> What if the guards have hostages?
<Danielle> Once they're in the wine cellar, they're in the castle, why don't they just invade from that point? Why dress up?
<@SLViehl> are we still trying to get 190 people out of the cellar?
<Robert> And would also create a diversion. Explode the castle granary. Toss a molotiv in that and you'll have many guards containing that explosion and rescuing folks.
<Peggy_Kurilla> (Cringes at the thought of feeding 190 people cherries Jubilee)
<Fredrick> Magically shrink them.
<@SLViehl> fire was a huge hazard.
<Nathan> Yeah...that's another thing I was thinking...with nly 20 guards and the same number of archers though...
<Robert> Yeah, they could just overpower any bands of guards they encounter - fast and trying to do it soundlessly if they can.
<Nathan> yeah...I thiink so
<CiceroCat> maybe beyond the cellar it's majorally guarded-- they want in and out with minor casualities on the rebels side
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nathan?
<Robert> They get more weapons every encounter.
<Fredrick> Less people, more guards maybe
<Robert> Use the enemy's resources, Nathan. Anything is a weapon.
<Peggy_Kurilla> The Ever-full Quiver.... steal it from Legolas.
<CiceroCat> if the castle is as hard as a prison to break into and out... it might need that many
<Anon_27> I would think you'd only want to take a few folks at a time and sneak them up around the other guards.... garotte them or snap their necks, but quietly. A large, mad rush would be a bad idea
<Fredrick> Alcatraz?
<@Jim> Legolas ran out of arrows in the book.
<CiceroCat> hi anon
<@SLViehl> it's pretty hard to move that many people out from under guard -- but if you have a secret passage, you can do it, Nathan
<Nathan> and about five of the guards are plants if you know what I mean
<CiceroCat> wb james?
<Peggy_Kurilla> True, Jim--was thinking of the movie. <g>
<Robert> Archers should hold fire after the first capture, stick to knife and sword infighting if you can to conserve ammo.
<Fredrick> What if there were multiple wine cellars?
<Katherine> Jim, not until Vol. 2 I don't think.
<James> Thanks, CC.
<CiceroCat> lol -- what's that movie with the guy from herules the th ethief
<Anne_Marble> Plants = spies? Or gardenias? ;->
<Lucas> Yeah, they're green and have these flowery... Oh, wait, never mind...
<Nathan> yes anne
<CiceroCat> he never ran out of bullets int he movie where his hand was cut off
<@Jim> Katherine - true.
<Robert> Obviously gardenias, the deadly combat variety.
<CiceroCat> lol
<James> Guardenias?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Venus flytraps.
<Nathan> they are spies (the five)
<Peggy_Kurilla> Or snapdragons.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks all, if I ever need rescuing from a wine cellar, I'm calling you guys. James, would you mind if we take a five minute break before we tackle your question?
<CiceroCat> man eating gardenia's -- lean over to sniff thema nd crunch crunch
<Katherine> <groan>
<Danielle> oh, James, that's terrible
<Lucas> Depending on the arrows, they might be retrievable after use if it's close up.
<James> Not at all, Sheila. I need a drink
<Anon_27> Not multilple cellars, but maybe a storage cellar for food
<Nathan> thanks all - thanks so much
<Kaelle> <groan>
<Fredrick> Arrows with return receipts
<Peggy_Kurilla> A little wine after all that talk of wine cellars?
<Robert> roflmao
<@SLViehl> We're going to take a five minute break now. Good time to get a drink, hit the powder room, etc.
<Anne_Marble> I need a break, I'm laughing too much about the gardenias
<Rob> Anyone have coke. I have rum, but no coke. <sigh>
<Fredrick> Where are the whiskey cellars?
<James> A stimulant, I reckon, Peggy.
<CiceroCat> booma rang arrows -- the come back to you -- or do the thing on zelda -- what was it , a hook shot?
<@Jim> magical returning arrows that come back to the archer if they miss... ouch.
<Nathan> what are gardenias?
<Peggy_Kurilla> Rob--I have diet coke.
<Danielle> Argh, Rob, I have coke but no ruM!
<CiceroCat> flowers
<@Jim> gmta CC
<Kaelle> I've got diet Coke, Rob.
<CiceroCat>
<Peggy_Kurilla> James--THIS GROUP DOES NOT NEED STIMULANTS. Lol
<@SLViehl> brb -- putting on the kettle
<Fredrick> I've got coffee.
<@SLViehl> Amen, Peggy
<CiceroCat> lol
<Kaelle> roflmao, Peggy
<Rob> Is FedEX still delivering? <g>
<Lucas> "If you find this arrow, it's probably because you've been shot with it. Please remove it before you die so your conquerors can pick it up and continue to demolish your people with maximum effeciency."
<James> Everyone needs stimulants
<Kay> (passing Pepsi to Rob) Sometimes you have to "make do" with what you've got...
<Rob> LOL
<Fredrick> You people are organic stimulants.
<Robert> rofl Lucas
<Danielle> Rob, do you ship internationally? <g>
<Kaelle> snarf, Lucas
<James> brb
<Rob> Actually, I prefer Pepsi. Thanks Kay
<Kay> YW
<CiceroCat> Coke gal
<magicalbookworm> well, got to go...
<CiceroCat> cya mbw
<@SLViehl> night magic
<magicalbookworm> bye everyone
<Danielle> bye mbw
<Fredrick> I like Slurm
<@Jim> Bye Cindy!
<Anne_Marble> Puff puff puff
<Robert> See you later, magical!
<Kaelle> Bye, Magic
<Rob> bye magic
<BarGnat> night, Magic
<CiceroCat> stay away from man eating gardenias
<Nathan> Bye MBW
<@SLViehl> stop by next week if you get the chance
<Kay> G'night Magical
<Catherine/splodge> bye MBW
<Danielle> No, CC, we're fine, it's the guys that have to worry
<CiceroCat> LOL
<Fredrick> goof night
<Fredrick> I mean good night
<Peggy_Kurilla> LOl Fred
<Danielle> LOL Fredrick, that's so RIGHT
<Robert> Think you got it right on the first one Fred!
<CiceroCat> lol
<Anne_Marble> Do we still have time, I need something to drink
<Fredrick> many a slip twixt keyboard and screen
<@SLViehl> definitely goof night, Fredrick (g)
<Becca> Yes, please!
<@SLViehl> go Anne, plenty of time
<Danielle> brb
<CiceroCat> is it strange to be happy that my mom found me a baby name book at a yardsale-- actually two of them.. one has 20k names in it!
<Catherine/splodge> guess what I have for my break food?
<Anon_27> How long do the Think Tanks run for usually?
<Robert> Way cool, CC!
<Robert> Two hours
<Lucas> CiceroCat - I never even played that game, but... Yes, the zelda game had a hook-shot. It seemed like one of the more useful items to me, since it never ran out of ammo.
<Becca> Do I look really bad if I leave early? I have to go to the grocery in half an hour...
<Kaelle> CC, that's great.
<CiceroCat> i now have 4 baby name books
<Peggy_Kurilla> CC--that's fabulous.
<@SLViehl> We usually run two hours, but with a full house like tonight, sometimes 2-1/2 hours
<Peggy_Kurilla> Think Tanks usually last two hours, and people leave when they need to.
<CiceroCat> cool so i'm not weird... mom got it for me cause she knew i alway need names for characters
<Katherine> About one more hour, Anon_27. If you type your name in the box, we can see who you are.
<Fredrick> I love the old Legend of Zelda and Metroid.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Becca--leave if you ahve to.
<Robert> You have a cool mom!
<Lucas> No problem Becca. Obtaining food is a viable reason for leaving early.
<@SLViehl> Yes, you don't have to stay.
<Kaelle> CC, nice mom you have
<James> Back.
<CiceroCat> oh, i love zelda-- can't defeat the N64 version tho
<@SLViehl> James, are you having problems getting bounced?
<CiceroCat> yup good thing sheloves yardsales
<Anne_Marble> Henry Winkler is on "Law & Order: SUV" I mean "SVU"
<James> Just the once, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Don't make me send in the Marines, now
<Becca> Ack, why isn't my text showing up?
<Fredrick> Law and Order has too many shows
<@SLViehl> we see you Becca
<CiceroCat> nah becca if you have to leave, you have to leave
<CiceroCat> hope you come back ot many a TT
<@SLViehl> brb -- must retrieve my tea
<Danielle> BAK
<James> The more the merrier, I say, Sheila. Just give me warning to put another kettle on
<Nathan> What's Law & Order...my next door neigbor watches it alot but waht is it
<Nathan> ?
<Anne_Marble> I like the new one. It has Vincent D'Onofrio in it. But if they come up with a "Law & Order: Parking Violations Department," I'm giving up.
<CiceroCat> in the supernintendo version, i loved being mean to the Cuccos (chickens)
<Kaelle> lol, Anne
<Nathan> waht=what
<Anon_27> <struggles mightlily>
<CiceroCat> eventually dozens of Cuccos would fly at ya
<James> Oh, I love the new Law and Order: Criminal Intent. Fun. Like Colombo.
<Fredrick> Next thing you know they'll have Law and Orde meets Worlds Scariest Police Chases
<Anne_Marble> It's actually three shows. They're all about crimes, the first part from the POV of the cops, the second from the POV of the attorneys
<Anne_Marble> And it has Vincent D'onofrio in it.
<@SLViehl> back -- is everyone ready to move on?
<Robert> Yep
<Fredrick> Law and Order: Just the Facts
<Peggy_Kurilla> Ready
<James> Ready to go.
<CiceroCat> ... freaky when they wre skeletons... then there was a Cucco you could magic-dust powder and she'd turn into a human and say she and the duck that flies you everywhere knows what we're doing to the cuccos
<Danielle> Law and Order meets When Good Animals Go Bad
<@Jim> Anne: You should write a story for the Parking Div and send it to them... they might buy it.
<Kaelle> GTG
<@SLViehl> James, you
<Robert> Actually framing my question while waiting...
<Nathan> Who's Vincent D'onofrio
<CiceroCat> i loved zelda it's so fun
<@SLViehl> Try that again -- James, you're up, Danielle, you'll be after James
<CiceroCat> and i got hte 65 bit version because you can ride a horse!!!
<James> Okay, mines another cliche question, oddly.
<Nathan> Bye Kaelle
<Catherine/splodge> yep - lets see if I can follow the next conversation
<Peggy_Kurilla> Vincent D'Onofrio played Edgar in Men In Black.
<Anne_Marble> I used to work in the Parking Violations department!
<Becca> Testing...
<James> For a YA fantasy novel I would like to use a race of giant, intelligent, fairly malevolent trap-door spiders. I'm worried about giant spiders being cliched, but really want to use them. Are they cliched? If so, any tips for tweaking them to weaken the cliche?
<Nathan> Whats men in black?
<@Jim> Anne: You have qualifications!
<Danielle> The intelligent part usually gets left out of giant spiders, imo
<Robert> Use a lot of realism in trapdoor spider habits. Develop their intelligence and society in depth like SF should. Then it's not cliche but interesting.
<Fredrick> Movie with Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones.
<@SLViehl> I used spiders and avoided the cliche by making them benevolent miners (g)
<Catherine/splodge> James: ask Yvonne. She has a prediliction for giant spiders
<Danielle> What Robert said
<Fredrick> Seamstress spiders
<CiceroCat> (zelda really made me like fantasy lol)
<Peggy_Kurilla> Seamstress spiders--webmistresses?
<@Jim> James: You have to find a new twist to make them interesting.
<Robert> Really ask all the culture questions as applied to spider lifestyle - how do solitary intelligent beings develop a civilization at all? Why do they use language? At what distance do they cooperate instead of compete?
<@SLViehl> Can you alter the biology to make them arachnid-like without the cliche spider body?
<Anne_Marble> Webmistress! I love it!
<CiceroCat> ooooh i like the trap door spiders james
<Katherine> Spiders hate each other almost as much as MC. So distractions work well.
<Anne_Marble> Land Lobsters
<Anon_27> any characteristics of humans you'd like to give them? Sociopaths, for instance?
<Catherine/splodge> trap door isn't cliched
<CiceroCat> i don't think it is cliched at all!!
<Catherine/splodge> LOL anne
<James> One thing I'm doing is making them slaves (sort of) of a spider-like demon. They're a bit restive about it.
<@SLViehl> I haven't seen anyone do trap door yet
<Robert> Perhaps they DO cooperate and develop more intricate traps. Perhaps their society is highly status and competition driven but respectful of physical boundaries.
<Fredrick> What if the webs were sentient, but the spiders weren't?
<CiceroCat> what will you use them for? they could be a danger that everyone has... oh no, i've fallen into this pit.... and the spider opens the door
<Fredrick> Webbrains
<Danielle> If they have anything beyond mindless menace, they're not cliched
<Becca> Wow...my browser is pathetically backed up. A message I typed five minutes ago just showed up. In any case, I have to make a run to the grocery store. Everyone, thank you so much!
<@Jim> James: Give them some quirks, maybe some redeeming traits... make them poets and singers or something.
<@SLViehl> (admiring Fredrick) I love the way your mind works.
<CiceroCat> hey maybe instead of dragons guarding riches and treasure, the spider can
<Katherine> What Robert said. Maybe they build mazes instead of simple traps.
<@SLViehl> night Becca
<CiceroCat> night becca
<@SLViehl> Oooh, mazes. I love it.
<Robert> But they won't have language and intelligence without reason to speak to other spiders and they WOULD develop a MOrselike web tapping communication mode for long distances, like African drumming.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Bye, Becca.
<Catherine/splodge> bye Becca
<@Jim> Bye Becca!
<Robert> What one spider knows, they all do.
<Robert> Night, Becca!
<James> Wow, this place does ideas fast These are great!
<Fredrick> Thanks. This board is like liquid Drano for my idea blocks.
<Anon_27> Bye Becca
<Danielle> Maybe they're intriguingly boastful about their dessicated kills - kill art?
<James> See you, Becca.
<Anne_Marble> See ya Becca
<Robert> Culture is what's going to make them stand up.
<Peggy_Kurilla> Maybe their webs are their communication? Different patterns of weaving mean different things?
<CiceroCat> Green used strange spider webs that fell down and acid-ate people
<Nathan> Bye Becca
<Robert> Their webs are also a primary art form.
<Catherine/splodge> Maybe web making is art
<@SLViehl> I really like the sentient webs Fredrick suggested. That's totally non-linear, non-cliche.
<Robert> That too can be competitive - in mating competition.
<Catherine/splodge> snap, robert
<Robert> Sure is, Sheila!
<Katherine> Webs are a form of competitive display. Less function, more beauty.
<Anne_Marble> Spider webs that say "Some Pig." ;-> (Sorry, somebody had to mention it...)
<Peggy_Kurilla> LOL Anne.
<@SLViehl> lol Anne
<Fredrick> Anne
<CiceroCat> look into real trap-door spiders, see what traits you can use for your species
<Danielle> Anyway, trapdoors don't have webs, do they?
<James> There's so much good stuff in this, Sheila, that I'm a little awed.
<Catherine/splodge> webs are a means of communication
<Lucas> There could be a lot of depth put into the relationship between the spiders and their demonic ruler.
<CiceroCat> i got my idea for a creature by a cross between a doppleganger and a cowbird
<@SLViehl> We do nice work, don't we, James? (g)
<@Jim> Sentient webs might really resent someone hacking their way through the webs with a machete.
<Robert> Extrapolate all the species behavior to sentient complexity.
<Danielle> Decorated trapdoor like hobbit holes
<Lucas> Just how "bad" would they be if not for this ruler?
<CiceroCat> so cross animals over for the spiders
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that Catherine. And if you break the webs, they can't communicate.
<Fredrick> What if spiders could only produce werbs once a year?
<CiceroCat> if you wish
<Fredrick> Or when they breed?
<Robert> Whatever's instinct they will still want - elaborated and possibly symbolically.
<Fredrick> Lifewebs.
<@SLViehl> You could make the spiders the bodies, and the webs the brains.
<CiceroCat> I think trap door spiders are fairly uhm loners
<Anon_27> And Trap door spiders can dig, can they not? How far underground are you going to make their civilization?
<Rob> There ya go.
<Robert> Do they have any form of herding? Do they breed their prey and thus have economic security for invention?
<Fredrick> Or the webs could be racist towards spiders for being real bodies.
<James> Cranky more than bad, Lucas. Defensive to the max.
<Catherine/splodge> If you break the web, you kill the spider
<CiceroCat> they need a way to attract prey to themselves....
<Peggy_Kurilla> There's a good one, Catherine.
<@SLViehl> yeah, Catherine, that's it
<CiceroCat> if they are intelligent instead of waiting like a croc
<Robert> Sentient webs coexisting with sentient spiders is an interesting "life stages" life form
<Lucas> Then they will very much resent some demon trying to take them over.
<CiceroCat> ooh good one splodge
<Anne_Marble> That's a scary idea, Robert. Maybe they are trying to trap the humans into a corrall. And there are the husks of other adventurers in there.
<Robert> Webpeople must have spiders to breed, spiders will create them only if there's some benefit to them.
<Lucas> That makes for lots of good things that could happen.
<James> Oh, yes -- the web is the demon which dominates the spiders -- I love that to death!
<CiceroCat> or maybe the spiders metamorph like catepillars into butterflies..... so spiders into webs?
<Robert> Yeah. They might even have agriculture for food animal fodder.
<@Jim> Combine the sentient webs with some ideas from venus flytraps... and the spiders sacrifice victims to them.
<@SLViehl> you could have a symbiotic relationship between the spiders and the web-entities
<Catherine/splodge> The web is like the central thingy in the borg
<Fredrick> Webs as gods and the spiders as worshippers--they literally makes their own Gods.
<Catherine/splodge> it controls what the psiders do
<CiceroCat> what if the people sacrifice their own occassionally to appease the spiders
<Rob> How about, the spiders have to provide food for the webs or become food themselves.
<Danielle> Oh, Catherine, psiders, cool typo
<Robert> And the mind of God grows greater when they add to it.
<Catherine/splodge> allows them to negotiate their actions
<Lucas> Or the webs/burrows could be like the circuit pathways in a computer, and the spiders are the electrons.
<@SLViehl> I love that Catherine -- was that deliberate, or a typo?
<Nathan> Instead of a spider with 8 legs, see the new 16 legged spider
<Robert> Psiders is a good idea, give them some psychic ability.
<CiceroCat> LOL
<Robert> They then have the telepathic lure, illusion of heart's desire to draw humans or anything into webs.
<Fredrick> Psiders, yes, I love typos
<Catherine/splodge> psiders was a typo
<James> Oh, Anon, missed you question -- they're a couple of dozen feet under, and extending a long way down.
<CiceroCat> wonderful world of typos
<@SLViehl> psyders? Nope, I like psiders better
<Anne_Marble> Maybe the webs act like fiber optics. They can see around corners, etc.
<Catherine/splodge> but a nice one:)
<Lucas> The spiders and the webs are parts of the brain, but not concious themselves.
<Kaelle> Dizzy at the rapid pace of ideas>
<CiceroCat> or they could be like--trip wires
<Anon_27> Gotcha...
<Robert> Even if they're only string - remember that string phone from grade school? Communication between communities is by web drumming.
<Nathan> lol Kae
<Danielle> Do trapdoor psiders have webs?
<@Jim> psiders = psionic spiders?
<CiceroCat> lol
<CiceroCat> oooh neat, robert
<Catherine/splodge> the web is like an extend3ed consciousness that connects the spiders together
<Robert> Yep Jim
<Fredrick> Webs are the parasites and spiders are the host.
<@SLViehl> I believe the trap door is the web part of their construct, Danielle
<Anne_Marble> And maybe the humans try to harvest those webs to build magical viewing thingies or something.
<Anon_27> They're strong enough to not need them. They dig and cover the hole with camo
<CiceroCat> i love symbiosis
<Danielle> thanks Sheila
<Fredrick> And what about venom?
<Lucas> Trap door spiders make trap doors - They line burrows with webs and then pop out to grab things.
<Fredrick> Not the Spider-Man villain.
<Robert> Okay. Camouflage may include entire human huts or houses then.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for James?
<Robert> Elaborate to sentience. You walk in. The kitchen smells nice and bread's baking, the furnishings are human looking, you sleep there, spider take you down.
<Katherine> Camo might include preserved human husks, too. <yech>
<CiceroCat> yeah they do... i thought they lived in a ditch and threw things at ants that walk around the edge to make themf all in, but i think i'm confusing antlions with trap-door spiders
<Lucas> Though if they were intelligent, they could always adapt to making pitfalls rather than using the traditional hunting methods.
<@SLViehl> I really like the sentient web idea Fredrick suggested, totally works for me.
<Fredrick> Venom is at war with the webs and the spider body is caught in the middle.
<CiceroCat> btw, will they have all those eyes of a real spider?
<Lucas> CiceroCat - Those are ant-lions I think.
<Fredrick> Or what if the webs were cancerous?
<CiceroCat> maybe they have magic-- they can make webs if needed to tie up victims or lasso them when they come nearby
<Fredrick> Or cancer causing.
<James> Thank you, everyone, that was absolutely amazing -- I'm sorry if I missed any questions in the rush, but again, wow, and thank you!
<Robert> Or one of the spider people has cancer - sympahty for the villain.
<CiceroCat>
<Peggy_Kurilla> Wow--serious lag. And my game group is starting to arrive. I need to log. See you around!
<@SLViehl> This is going to be one heck of a transcript tonight, lol
<Catherine/splodge> bye peggy
<Nathan> you're welcome James
<Danielle> See you later, Peggy
<Anon_27> Bye PK!
<Robert> See you later, Peggy! Happy writing!
<James> See you, Peggy.
<@SLViehl> night Peggy
<Kaelle> bye Peggy
<Fredrick> World Wide Web
<Rob> nite peg
<Nathan> LOL sheila
<Nathan> Bye Peggy
<CiceroCat> ah, thanx lucas-- i hate antlions evil things are always making all these wholes around the gravel drive
<@JimM> Bye Peggy!
<Danielle> Sheila, before you ask, pass! thanks
<Kaelle> lol Fred
<CiceroCat> who would be hte enemy of the spiders i wonder
<CiceroCat> bird-people?
<Fredrick> Flies
<James> Gemstone golems, in this novel, CC.
<CiceroCat> ah neat
<Robert> Coolness!
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all you spider men and women for some awesome suggestions -- thanks, Danielle, BarGnat, you're up, Anne, you're after BarGnat
<Danielle> Things that come up from below?
<CiceroCat> lol flips a web and hangs upside down from ceiling
<Lucas> Really ticked off worms...
<Robert> Lovecraft wrote about a lot of those, in layers of increasing ickiness... cool!
<Lucas>
<Anon_27> LOL Lucas
<Danielle> LOL lucas
<CiceroCat> LOl lucas
<Fredrick> Old ladies.
<Nathan> lol fred
<BarGnat> The only question I have is too mundane for the Think Tank... sorry, but it's all I can think of these days and it's driving me crazy
<Fredrick> They always complain about spider webs.
<Lucas> Fredrick - Old women from below the earth?
<BarGnat> crazier, that is
<Danielle> Maybe they live amongst the hobbits and eat the visitors who open the wrong door?
<@SLViehl> We take mundane, Mary
<CiceroCat> nothing is too mundane, bg!!
<Anne_Marble> That's OK, ask anyway.
<Robert> Yeah, ask!
<Nathan> toddlers
<Kaelle> Nothing is too mundane
<BarGnat> Is there some rule of thumb regarding word length for a synopsis? Does it vary depending on length of story? Does it vary depending on the publisher? All of the above?
<James> We take mundane, and break it!
<Fredrick> No, my mom doesn't like spider webs
<CiceroCat> we live in mundania anyway, according ot Piers Anthony's books
<Nathan> Mundane...what is....mundane?
<Fredrick> One to two pages.
<Robert> One or two single spaced pages, BG, that's what "Breakout Novel" suggests. One is better than two.
<Fredrick> The shorter and more concise, the better.
<Robert> Single spaced, third person present tense, include the ending.
<BarGnat> How many words would that be?
<Nathan> I have no clue
<Fredrick> 500?
<CiceroCat> shorter the better, i heard.... couple of pages---i'd check out with the publisher if they have any specifics on them...
<Robert> 500 words if a double space is 250
<@SLViehl> It depends on the publisher's guidelines, but I do a one-page, a three-page, and a ten to fifteen page synopsis
<CiceroCat> if they do that'd really please them
<@SLViehl> figure 250 words per page, Mary
<Fredrick> Read TV guide
<BarGnat> thx
<Robert> Oh nice fine point, Sheila!
<Nathan> but I'd probably place a safe bet that mabe you want it to be a paragraph or so
<Robert> Thanks for answering what I should have asked! Purr!
<CiceroCat> if they don't have a guidelines yeah, just do try a sthort one.... I heard you could do double speace
<Anne_Marble> Is it true that you have to capitalize the characters' name each time you use it? :-/
<CiceroCat> space
<James> A short as you can make it, but as long as you need it to be to be absolutely clear, would be my guess.
<@SLViehl> I don't, Anne, and I think it's distracting when you do.
<Nathan> I try
<CiceroCat> oh and i heard, to use one name for your character--like mine is Bek Wetherley -- I wouldn't use the whole name, but only Bek cause he's most called that
<Fredrick> And read the back of published books. They can help you condense.
<@SLViehl> You absolutely do double-space a synopsis
<Kaelle> I've heard all caps first time, Anne
<@JimM> Anne: If you mean all caps, no.
<BarGnat> So, 300 words or less, 500-750 words, and maybe even 3-4K?
<CiceroCat> hi kevin (btw)
<CiceroCat> ah sheila
<@SLViehl> That's about right, Mary
<Nathan> of course when I do first draft every word is capital
<@SLViehl> Have you got any examples to follow?
<Robert> Oh! Okay, I'll double space it then. 250, 750 and 2,500 or so for levels of synopsis.
<BarGnat> k. And get rid of the "to be" words, right?
<Fredrick> ALL CAPS first time is a screenplay, not a synopsis.
<Robert> THat will seriously shorten it anyway, BG!
<Anon_27> "to be"? Mary?
<CiceroCat> also, isn't it written in present tense, shiela?
<Nathan> "To Be" words?
<@SLViehl> Synopsis should be written in present tense.
<CiceroCat> He wants to be happy etc
<BarGnat> Yes, present tense
<CiceroCat> he wants to be a goblin etc
<James> That would ruin a synopsis of Hamlet
<CiceroCat> lol
<@JimM> Yes, minimize use of was and were. Use more active verbs.
<CiceroCat> like that "to be" words or something, right?
<Anne_Marble> OK, I'll throw out that writing book. ;->
<Fredrick> Try and summarize War and Peace
<@JimM> Or is, to use present tense.
<Anon_27> ouch
<@SLViehl> I.E. "Sean Delaney doesn't want to be sucked back into the intelligence world, but when his old flame comes to kidnap him, he has no choice."
<Nathan> I've never read it
<CiceroCat> lol james
<Robert> I want to read that one!
<Fredrick> How about Stardoc or Fire in the Mist.
<Fredrick> Maybe you could practice with them.
<BarGnat> Good point.
<@SLViehl> I had to submit a fifteen page synopsis on StarDoc. These days they accept a one page for the contract, but I'm still required to turn in a full 15 -20 page synopsis
<Nathan> Hi Melinda
<Melinda> Hey took a break thought I'd sit in
<Fredrick> In Hollywood they do pitches for projects. Maybe you could pitch your book to your family.
<BarGnat> Thx., everyone
<CiceroCat> and share your synopsis with the boards, bg, when you write it and if you need help on it
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Mary?
<CiceroCat> really, sheila? so the best policy i guess would be to ask the publisher what they want
<Danielle> Thanks for asking, useful question!
<Lucas> CiceroCat - What's the rest of his name? I have a character I'm working with who is called something similar: Beck, for Beckwith.
<James> Just about to say that, CC .
<Robert> Yeah. There's a post on Heroic Fantasy for posting synopses.
<@SLViehl> Always, CC
<BarGnat> My cat couldn't care less, Frederick. <G>
<CiceroCat> they'd may be more likely to look at yours over ones that are erronous
<Rob> 15 page synopsis. <big sigh>
<Robert> Sheila, if I'm just tucking an extra page in with queries, the one page version is best, right?
<@SLViehl> Mary, if you want to see an example of one of mine, e-mail me and I'll send it to you.
<BarGnat> 15 pages would be easier than the one-pager, Robert. Believe me!
<@SLViehl> Depends on the guidelines, Robert.
<BarGnat> Thanks, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> I'm actually getting pretty good at synopses. Finally
<Robert> I'm querying agents cold out of the blue so I can get one so I can get off Welfare.
<BarGnat> I know it silly and trivial, but it is really bugging me
<Fredrick> Yeah, it takes practice.
<Anon_27> Practice makes perfect!
<CiceroCat> yuppers i bet
<Fredrick> Maybe not perfect, but it does make you better
<CiceroCat> but i can't summarize so I'm up a creek once i get to that point
<James> Nothing's trivial if it's slowing you down.
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for your suggestions -- Anne, you're up, Kevin, you're after Anne.
<CiceroCat> i heard a suggestion is to write it before you finish, if you have an idea of what you want to write
<Kevin> ok
<@SLViehl> Would it help to post a synopsis of mine somewhere on the boards?
<Nathan> I been practisin for twelve years, and I'm still not perfect -Nathan Garrod, on being himself
<Fredrick> Yes, please.
<Robert> Please pretty please? <Ari purrs and looks cute>
<Danielle> Sheila, yes, definitely
<Rob> Shelia: Big YES!
<@SLViehl> I'll check with Holly, see if I can put one up on the Classroom board.
<Anne_Marble> Gorok and Wulf are now officially a couple. Wulf is a respected mage, so most of the other mages accept this. But would they understand, at this point? (They don't mind the gay part, they mind the original, violent... encounter.) Can anybody come up with some "random encounters" for their first morning among the other mages? ;-> Both funny & serious. But G -- PG-13!!! ;->
<Kay> Yes, that would be WONDERFUL, Sheila!
<BarGnat> It would cut down on your email.... <G>
<James> Samples always help -- I fall on every sample I see and devour it.
<Nathan> {Jumps up several feet in the air} YES SHEILA!
<Robert> I think some of the other mages would be horrified Wulf is going out with an ugh, Non Mage, a barbarian BRUTE!
<CiceroCat> neat sheila!
<Fredrick> Breakfast at Gorok's?
<Robert> And would patronize Gorok and put him down.
<@JimM> Sheila: I'll see if I can pop the Query/Synopsis Crit Cicle up to the top on the Gen Fic board... you can post it there. Wanna moderate it?
<Katherine> Does Wulf have prior, uhm, attachments who might be surprised and jealous?
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, never mind how they, uhm, met. He's a barbarian!
<CiceroCat> are Gorok and Wulf two males?
<@SLViehl> I think a mage who tries to attack Gorok and finds himself with Wulf in his face would be funny
<Anne_Marble> Yes, they are.
<Robert> I think they'd try to talk over his head. Think of a bunch of garrulous stuffy professors meeting a ditch digger.
<CiceroCat> k
<@SLViehl> Jim, I got lost -- moderate what?
<Anne_Marble> Yes, there's an evil mage who used to "date" Wulf.
<Danielle> Anne, they'd exploit the fact Gorok doesn't speak much of their language by calling him petnames like 'Cupcake' in their own language
<CiceroCat> i thought i remember you saying so.....
<Fredrick> Maybe they find that a number of mages are gay or bisexual.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, these are good.
<Kaelle> lol, Danielle
<Robert> They'd make fun of his accent - and one learned in Gorok's tribes customs could do a flaming nasty "anthropology" dissection of it claiming this is just research.
<@SLViehl> A gay mage who tries to seduce Wulf away from Gorok
<Danielle> They'd ask Wulf about barbarian techniques
<Robert> "is it true your tribe eats every other child born?"
<Nathan> lol Robert
<CiceroCat> what if one has to answer the door andhe's naked
<Rob> Wulf has to meet Gorok's parents
<CiceroCat> lol and the lover comes up behind him wrapped in asheet or vice versa
<@SLViehl> Well, how would we feel if a friend of ours got into a relationship with a rapist? I'd want to kill the guy, myself.
<Katherine> I'm thinking something like the classic "ex-friend encounters new friend in hallway" scene.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, imagine if someone took some church rituals literally? ;->
<Nathan> meet the parents all over again
<@JimM> Sheila: the Query/Synopsis Crit Circle on the General Fiction Board.
<Danielle> Sheila, you'
<CiceroCat> oooh ex like that
<Kay> That is a really great idea Nathan!
<Anne_Marble> Gorok's parents are dead. Poor thing.
<@SLViehl> To get into the more serious side, I'd expect some of the mages to try to break them up
<Robert> Well, the mages' perspective would show more that Wulf turned the tables in a big way.
<Danielle> (oops) you're right, they wouldn't be friendly at all
<@SLViehl> Is that public access, Jim?
<Kay> Naturally all Wulf's friends are wanting to be satisfied taht Gorok is "good enough" for Wulf
<@JimM> No... limited to members.
<James> A good necromancer could still arrange a meeting, Anne.
<Lucas> Some of the mages might want to befriend Gorok for some reason. Several of them might not like him, but there could be the unexpected interest on someones part.
<CiceroCat> well he can have ghostly vistors -- or like on the TV show Providence the parents check up on him in his day drams and dreams -- they have their say
<@SLViehl> okay -- let me ask Holly about it.
<Danielle> Anne, do they know about the original encounter?
<Katherine> The other mages might be really impressive with Wulf for having such a dangerous pet.
<Robert> Someone pretending to be Wulf's lover could grab and kiss him in front of Gorok or make snide remarks like he's just waiting for the barbarian to leave. Imply infidelity to create it.
<James> As a barbarian, Gorok should have physical power equal to the mages power -- he should use it and compel some respect.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that Robert. And Gorok would probably yawn. :->
<Catherine/splodge> Would they try to haze Gorok and get rid of him?
<CiceroCat> maybe post it on the discussion board, sheila--asking others to post their samples
<Anne_Marble> They might.
<CiceroCat> or ideas on how to write one
<@SLViehl> Or simply have someone attack Gorok, meaning to kill him. I'd take the direct, in your face approach if I felt one of my friends was in danger
<Robert> That might be what some of the mages fear anyway, James. Mages lashing out at Gorok because they fear he'll beat them up.
<CiceroCat> ooh that might happen
<Catherine/splodge> mages putting nasty little irritating spells on Gorok?
<Melinda> Yea, small demeaning meanial acts to drive him away
<James> Is he trying hard to "fit in" with them, Robert?
<Catherine/splodge> trying to force him out?
<CiceroCat> disappearing clothes trick
<Fredrick> A dance where some of the mages try to steal Gorok away.
<@SLViehl> Or try to provoke Gorok into another rape.
<Kay> "Wulf is a good friend of mine, and I don't want him hurt. Make him sad and you'll WISH I'd only turned you into a three toed sloth!"
<Robert> I have no idea, it's Anne's story.
<Anne_Marble> It might be fun if it was obvious from the little things that Wulf was really the one in power....
<CiceroCat> ooooh
<@SLViehl> to show Wulf what a louse he is.
<Anne_Marble> Then some mages would be really impressed.
<@SLViehl> lol Kay
<CiceroCat> someone puts fleas in their bed
<Danielle> Depends what the cultural feleling is about sexual violence
<Anon_27> The disappearing clothes thing I could see backfiring in some ways
<Katherine> Yes, that's what I'm thinking, Anne. Which would make them more patronizing toward Gorok.
<James> Ack -- somehow I thought it was Robert's question, and, damn it, I knew these were Anne's characters. My memory is a shocker!
<Anne_Marble> That Wulf had managed to take control of this powerful barbarian.
<Danielle> feleling=feeling
<CiceroCat> and they itch all day long..... LOL anon
<CiceroCat> true
<Fredrick> Are they still in prison?
<Robert> Itching powder and other practical jokes. Haze Gorok.
<@SLViehl> (patting James on the back) there, there
<Kay> Mocking Gorok's accent and lack of cultrual knowledge
<Anne_Marble> Gorok has some tricks up his sleeve anyway.
<CiceroCat> hazing good idea robert
<Anne_Marble> Yup, they're still under the yoke, etc.
<@SLViehl> An impotency spell would be rather nasty
<James> I told you I needed a stimulant...
<CiceroCat> lol james-- my mind is a seive, don't worry
<Danielle> lol
<Kay> Serving artichokes or something else hard to eat taht Gorok wouldn't know about
<Anne_Marble> Oh, and Gorok and Wulf were... (Nathan, don't look) noisy the night before.
<Fredrick> Have a frat party.
<CiceroCat> someone puts something in their food or drink
<CiceroCat> like hot sauce or equivalent
<Anne_Marble> Did anybody read "Barrayar"? The part where the count told Cordelia that Aral was bisexual?
<Danielle> Use magic to play pack the noises during the meal
<Fredrick> Sit around sucking beer and lighting farts. Really manly stuff.
<Katherine> Funny how the clumsy barbarian is always tripping over things. Even more so thanks to the tripping spell.
<Lucas> A mage, guessing that some mages will eventually try to "do something" about Gorok, and thinking that Gorok is tougher than they realize, decides to stop a possible deadly fight before it starts by provoking numerous smaller confrontations to show the barbarians strength.
<CiceroCat> or they write things all over their possessions or house or uhm horse
<Anon_27> I did Anne... that was wonderful! Could you do something along those lines?
<Kay> Cool Katherine!!
<Nathan> I don't know what you mean anyway Anne
<Katherine> Anne: Heckling!!!
<Anne_Marble> Yes, I would love to do that.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> Yes, Katherine, I should go back and add heckling!
<CiceroCat> sounds intersting anne
<Nathan> No...none here
<@SLViehl> I'd go with true friends who are furious, trying to split them up with magic. And a few comic relief incidents, like seductions
<Rob> Have one of the mages expose them while they're being intimate. Embarras them.
<Katherine> Magic eye wanders into bedroom, spouts scathing critiques.
<Anon_27> Then I'd suggest some insinuating comments from Garok.... to the other mages. Turn them agaist each other
<Fredrick> Stick a squirrel down Gorok's pants.
<@SLViehl> ouch, Katherine
<CiceroCat> oooh neat kat
<@JimM> Rob: Sounds like the scene in Mash the movie.
<Danielle> LOL Katherine
<CiceroCat> then Gorok can poke it in the eye
<@SLViehl> double ouch, Fredrick
<CiceroCat> or Wufl
<Rob> Right.
<James> Like Rob's idea -- trick them into a public intimacy.
<CiceroCat> ooh good one
<Kay> Someone plants evidence that Gorok has been chasing another mage behind Wulf's back
<CiceroCat> LOL fred
<CiceroCat> oooh nother good one kay
<@SLViehl> Okay, thanks to all for some wicked ideas. Kevin, have you got a question for the group tonight?
<Anne_Marble> Gorok knows Wulf's language, the others might not know this and can try plotting in that language. ;->
<CiceroCat> neat
<Anon_20> I do
<@SLViehl> Throw it at us
<Kevin> I'm starting to write a SF novel about a generation spaceship on which many people will live their lives before the ship finishes its 400 year voyage. I'm having problems coming up with characters for this story because, personally, I would not want to leave Earth, so I'm having problems imagining the type of people that would.
<Melinda> Gotta run have fun.
<Fredrick> Karoke?
<Anon_27> Bye Melinda
<@SLViehl> Rob, you're after Kevin. Night Melinda
<Nathan> Bye Melinda
<James> See you, Melinda.
<CiceroCat> night melinda
<Fredrick> Entrepreneurs
<Kevin> Night
<James> If Earth's conditions were awful, people would leave.
<Robert> SF fans. Poor people who want land. Political refugees.
<Katherine> Make earth a political and/or environmental mess.
<Rob> Give them a reason to want to leave earth. Bannishment, perhaps?
<Danielle> Someone with a strong urge to 'create the future' if not see it
<@SLViehl> Scientists who need isolation to carry out experiments.
<CiceroCat> Pioneers--they leave for a cause like religious freedom
<Kay> The same kinds of people who volunteered immediately in WWI,
<James> If the people weren't wanted, they might be made to leave.
<Lucas> Interesting difficulty, you have to write about characters who would do things you wouldn't want to do.
<Kaelle> Explorers, scientists, theorists.
<Kay> Adventurous types, who want the wild frontier
<CiceroCat> or they *didn't* have a choice
<CiceroCat> random selection or lottery
<@JimM> Kevin: you'd have whole families go... planning to make the worldship their home with the dream that their descendants would see the new world.
<@SLViehl> ah, good twist, CC
<Katherine> Religious cultists.
<Robert> Refugees of any kind.
<Rob> A whole family forced to leave earth. Mafia, maybe?
<Kay> Check NASA for info on astronaut profiles
<James> Cultists, who want the journey, not the arrival.
<Lucas> It might help to think of what would have to happen before *you
<CiceroCat> is there something going ot happen to their home planet?
<Anon_27> Folks who had bad enough memories of earth that staying would be almost unbearable...
<Kevin> I'm thinking maybe just individuals and hope they marry onboard
<Robert> Think of Vietnamese families coming to America
<CiceroCat> is it heating up too much? World wars?
<Katherine> Prisoners. Society doesn't care if colony survives or not.
<@SLViehl> What about physically handicapped people who are able to live relatively normal lives in space, but not on land?
<Nathan> Why are they leaving? where are they going? What year is it? What planet are the leaving?
<Fredrick> Clone the people onship?
<Danielle> Lonely hearts
<@JimM> Or they could be like those originally sent to Australia... criminals sent into exile.
<Robert> Generation ship, Sheila - works if it's from injury but not for birth defects.
<Rob> Sentenced to life as far from Earth as possible.
<Lucas> It might help to think of what would have to happen before you could be convinced to leave the planet, and make some of the characters be in the same situations.
<Danielle> A massive galactic personals ad
<CiceroCat> oooh that's neat fred-- what if they are clones --used like blood in a blood bank for people
<@SLViehl> good point, Robert
<CiceroCat> oh neat, criminals!
<Danielle> The ultimate in Live TV - screened back to Earth
<James> Incentives: people who agree to go get extended life treatments.
<Fredrick> Survivor in Space
<Nathan> polution
<Nathan> lol Frederick
<CiceroCat> neat, you mean like Big Brother, danielle?
<Danielle> Big Brother
<Rob> Nice, Fred.
<Danielle> lol CC
<Robert> Illegitimate people. Who face a stigma on Earth and not on the colony and don't have reason to want contact with family. Abuse victims who want to put family as far behind as possible!
<Kevin> The year is 2080, they are going to keep the species going. Nothing wrong with Earth, just exploration and colonization.
<@SLViehl> or, working off James's theory, people whose families benefit from them volunteering.
<Danielle> Make it a media circus, people would flock to be famous!
<CiceroCat> that's good ones that are outcasts already
<@SLViehl> Have people born and bred for the mission on Earth
<Fredrick> What if there are mutants who are born terratoxic or severely allergic to Earth's atmosphere?
<CiceroCat> are what if theya re gypsy like folks-- they are rootless lol
<Robert> Yes. Some bullied into it by parents who want the incentives. I'll go so Sis can go to college.
<Nathan> So what? Do you need character names or something?
<Katherine> Younger sons with no inheritance to look forward to.
<Rob> Maybe a group of missionaries on their way to spread "the Word?"
<Lucas> How people are chosen to go on this voyage will (obviously...) make a difference as to who goes.
<Danielle> You get corporate sponsorship.. introduce a competitive element to survival on board
<Robert> Heh. I don't know if anyone has inheritance to look forward to these days.
<CiceroCat> ah... well, wouldn't some be like scientists and stuff.... they'd get to discovern new thigns on the next planet, make the find of the century in medicine stuff like that
<James> Message from aliens: All species -- multi-species colony being set up on Planet X for peace and understanding, please send one colony ship to participate.
<Robert> Bigamists avoiding prosecution. Anyone avoiding prosecution when the law's a little too close.
<Fredrick> Send only orphans into outer space.
<@SLViehl> Everyone who works for NASA has to go. Wait, that's a personal fantasy, not a plot....
<Danielle> Amnesty of some kind
<Rob> LOL
<Nathan> yes, but wouldn't it cost twice as much for the trip as for sis to go to collage
<Anon_27> lol Shiela
<Lucas> CiceroCat - If it's a 400 year mission, the scientists who leave will never see the new planet.
<CiceroCat> Maybe it's like... what is that thing where they force people to join the army in time of war?
<CiceroCat> draft?
<Katherine> Not if the colonists are paid, Nathan.
<Anon_27> conscripts?
<CiceroCat> or something, maybe they are drafted to do this
<CiceroCat> yeah anon thanx
<Robert> More people will want to go than will fit on the ship. Many people have reasons to throw everything away and try something else.
<Kevin> draft is a good idea
<Anon_27> yw...
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Kevin?
<Danielle> They go, people left behind get a chunk of land
<Robert> Draw off Welfare and you'll get volunteers.
<CiceroCat> i told you all i have a seive like mind
<Nathan> None that I can think of
<Kevin> great ideas! thanks
<Robert> Single mothers might want to go on odds of finding husband or economic security for child.
<Katherine> <slipping out back door>
<CiceroCat> maybe they'd get to own a whole country-- new land, the motivation of some people to UA
<Danielle> bye Katherine
<CiceroCat> UA = USA
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of volunteers whose families are compensated -- then it hits them once they're ten years from earth, what life will be like for them.
<Anon_27> bye Katherine!
<Nathan> You're welcome
<CiceroCat> bye kat
<@SLViehl> night Katherine
<Fredrick> Send animal-human hybrids
<Nathan> Bye katherine
<Robert> See you later Katherine!
<@JimM> Robert: especially if # of men going outnumber women.
<Robert> Yep, just what I was thinking, Australia
<@JimM> Night Katherine!
<CiceroCat> what wre those people who were given money as incentive for breaking in new territory in the west in the USA
<Catherine/splodge> bye Katherine
<CiceroCat> or given the land
<James> Greenhouse causes ocean rise -- islands full of people go in lieu of being drowned.
<CiceroCat> as much as they could claim
<Fredrick> Racial reasons maybe? Send away only blacks or Jews? Terrible, but possible.
<@SLViehl> sod busters, CC
<Robert> Homesteaders
<CiceroCat> overpoplulation too might cause it
<James> See you, Katherine.
<Rob> sob busters. That's good, too.
<CiceroCat> oooh good oen fred..... thanx shiela, robert on the name
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for great suggestions. Rob, you're up, CC, you'll be after Rob.
<CiceroCat> whoa, time flies lol
<Rob> Okay::::
<Rob> When outlining a novel, how do you know when you have enough "stuff" to make length? It's my biggest problem when I try to do outlines, and the reason I usually give up on them. I just don't know how much I need. Usually, I'm afraid of coming up short. Help.
<Nathan> If someone creates a water bubble then overpopul;ation isn;t a possiblitie for a couple hundred years
<Danielle> Holly seems to work her outlines out by words per scene
<@SLViehl> There are a couple of different approaches, Rob. I use plot to outline first, then fill in.
<Fredrick> I don't. I just stop when I think I have enough and go from there.
<CiceroCat> that's my problem too... Maybe try a general out line, then try a chapter outline or a character outline
<@SLViehl> I have a general plotting outline up on the Class board, I think -- is it still there, guys?
<Rob> Sheila: What do you mean, plot to outline first?
<Kevin> chapter or scene outlines could help by whittling it down
<Nathan> I generally don't do outlines...gives me a lot more freedom with the story
<Robert> My outlines aren't fit for man or beast.
<CiceroCat> sometimes, tho I don't come up short, outline the main points and I usually end up splitting up a proposed chapter into like two
<CiceroCat> think of subplots too
<Robert> They're a general idea of the novel, then random important high points jotted at the point I see them.
<Rob> Then fill in?
<@SLViehl> I do all the action first -- what happens in the story. Then I flesh out with running threads, setting, characters, etc.
<Danielle> Sheila, there's some transcripts on the subject on the class boards
<Fredrick> Trust your instincts. Use the force, so to speak.
<Kay> Sorry gotta go - let the good times roll y'all
<@SLViehl> night Kay
<Danielle> Bye Kay
<CiceroCat> night kay
<Nathan> bye kay
<Anon_27> night Kay
<Robert> See you later, Kay! Happy writing!
<Anne_Marble> Bye Kay
<@JimM> Bye Kay!
<Catherine/splodge> bye Kay!
<James> Bye, Kay.
<BarGnat> Night Kay
<Fredrick> Goof night, Kay
<Lucas> I am becoming increasingly convinced that the number of things that happen in a novel/story makes almost no difference to its eventual length, just the elaboration given to each event.
<Kaelle> Night Kay
<@SLViehl> And there's a pattern to plotting that you fall into -- like when someone says beginning, middle, end.
<CiceroCat> true lucas
<James> I dropped out again, could I be a terrible pain and ask for a recap of the question?
<@SLViehl> With me it's disaster, bigger disaster, huge disaster
<Robert> Nice, Sheila!
<Catherine/splodge> lol
<@SLViehl> Rob was asking about how to plot effectively
<Lucas> Roy said this: When outlining a novel, how do you know when you have enough "stuff" to make length? It's my biggest problem when I try to do outlines, and the reason I usually give up on them. I just don't know how much I need. Usually, I'm afraid of coming up short. Help.
<Anon_27> James, how did you get your name back when you returned? I can't seem to drop the Anon
<James> Ah, thanks Sheila!
<@SLViehl> thank you for the repost, Lucas
<Danielle> Lol, Sheila, just read Stardoc, that explains a lot
<@SLViehl> Type Kevin2 in the name slot, Kevin
<Rob> But say I'm trying to write a 100,000 novel...how will I know there's enough plot to get that length. As opposed to say a 80k novel?
<Fredrick> Outlines are heavily overrated IMHO.
<James> I'm not sure, I just typed my name and it accepted it.
<@JimM> Anon: use your name with an extra letter or last initial or something.
<@SLViehl> Ah, I see what you're saying
<Catherine/splodge> work out your average words per scene
<Linnet2> Test test....
<CiceroCat> well, what is your usually length of chapters?
<Linnet2> oh thanks!
<@SLViehl> Split it into four parts, Rob.
<CiceroCat> 4000 words?
<Danielle> Rob, break that into scenes, and work out how many words per scene, then make sure each scene has enough stuff going on in it
<Robert> You'd have to know yourself and how much deetail you use in your outline. And how much elbowroom you give yourself for "Okay, cool, I see it, I can do that now!"
<Catherine/splodge> then divide 100000 by the words per scene
<CiceroCat> i don't think you can know that Rob , not easily
<Fredrick> I just finished the 1st draft of a 100,000 word novel and all I used was a few pages of notes, less than five.
<Catherine/splodge> and you have the number of scenes you need
<James> I've just finished an outline -- it went from a mind-map to a Hollyesque scene list, to the finished, fleshed out outline.
<Nathan> CC: you put that many words into yours scenes?
<CiceroCat> usually if you know your average words per chapter, then you have an idea of how many chapters you will need for your story and you work around that, adding more ideas to each chapter
<Robert> I plot by chapters. I know what chaper I'm in and my chapters are roughly equal. If it's Chapter 19 it's the beginning of the end.
<Catherine/splodge> I guess mines about 1500
<@SLViehl> I plot in stages versus chapters. Chapters are the last thing I do. Hmmm.
<CiceroCat> usually my chapters have 3000 words, and usually a couple scenes in it (divided by # things)
<Rob> Split into four stages then, of say, 25k each?
<Nathan> If you heard a thud just now, it was probably my jaw hitting the desk
<@SLViehl> If that's manageable, Rob. Or smaller if you need to get a handle on it.
<CiceroCat> ah, sheila-- that's a nother good point--what are you most comfortable with ploting and writing? If you are like Shelia, chapters less, my suggestions won't help much
<CiceroCat> less = last
<@SLViehl> getting the bandaids for Nathan's chin
<Lucas> I find my outlines don't always have consistent density, (a sentence could be 2 pages, or twenty) so even the length of outlines aren't always a sure gauge of eventual length. Of course that can be dealt with by just being a little more consistent in the outlining, but, err... One of these days maybe.
<Danielle> Think about any natural divisions in the story and work out how much weighting you want to give to the different parts
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Rob?
<Rob> Well, like your template on the board...it's ten stages, right? So you just have to sort of "guess" how much will make up 10k for each stage?
<Fredrick> A story is like rope. Remember to pay off slack while you're writing it.
<Catherine/splodge> I have finished my novel - still haven't decided on all the chapter breaks
<Nathan> yu won't need many sheila...it's a hard chin
<Nathan> yu=you
<Linnet2> Where do your cliffhangers lie? Would using them as suspense-markers help you realize where you are and what needs to happen next?
<James> It might be something you learn by doing. Have a good crack at it, but try to build in subplots you can add if you need to add length when you finish the novel?
<CiceroCat> trust your instinct --look okver failed ones that you mentioned and see why they wnet wrong... or maybe combine ideas if needbe to lengthen it
<Fredrick> The more rope you have, the more room you have to work with.
<CiceroCat> don't be afraid of rewrites to add length
<@SLViehl> I'd break it down from beginning to end. See if you can manage the plot in small ncrements. If it seems hollow, or predictable, you need more. Opposite if it seems too crowded.
<Linnet2> LOL That's scary, Fred
<Lucas> There are usually things that can be elaborated on in rewrites, as some people have suggested.
<CiceroCat> good idea-- and try that suggestion of Holly's write the ending scene
<Rob> Thanks everyone.
<CiceroCat> so you know what things to weave throughout
<Emily> I'm looking around on the class board but can't find the template. Can someone give me the link?
<Nathan> for what Emily?
<@SLViehl> Actually I think it's on the transcript board, Emily, sorry
<@SLViehl> if you're looking for the plotting template for the novel I posted
<Fredrick> And don't worry about the first draft. It is not supposed to be good. It just needs all the story to be there.
<Emily> Yeah. I'm looking on the transcript board, but which class is it under?
<Robert and Ari> Yeah. Expanding from 80k to 100k wouldn't be as rough as 37k to 90k
<@SLViehl> Mine -- S.L. Viehl
<James> I've used Sheila's template to plot an SF novel -- it's great for seeing how your subplots and characters intertwine!
<CiceroCat> oh yeah, robert
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some great suggestions -- CC, you're up, Steven, you're after CC
<@SLViehl> thank you, James
<Catherine/splodge> brb
<Lucas> Yeah, like a rope, too short and it doesn't break the neck, too long and... Ahh, maybe that's not a profitable way to continue that analogy.
<James> Well it's true, Sheila
<CiceroCat> oh, cool, lol myturn... i'm gonna background dump ya first all, then pose a q
<Nathan> WB Jim
<CiceroCat> wb jim
<@SLViehl> Dump away, CC
<CiceroCat> okay, tyring to copy and paste here...
<Nathan> Kewl CC
<@Jim> (Thanks.)
<Nathan> Your welcome
<Emily> Sorry to be annoying, but which of Shiela's classes is it? I think my brain's not working right now.
<CiceroCat> In my Anti/Mage/Buffer story--My Tribes are all getting together for an All-Tribe Gathering ; happens every 9 years. Each time, a new Tribe hosts it
<Nathan> WB Steven
<@SLViehl> Let me e-mail it to you after the session, Emily.
<CiceroCat> They do have a city, where it will be held (they are slowly being "rooted" in place). And each will bring the animal their tribe is named after--they Call the animal, asking it to come. And so none of the animals fight at the Gathering.
<Emily> OK, thanks. Sorry about that.
<@SLViehl> no problem
<CiceroCat> Each tribe sends about 50 individuals, including some of the strongest mages, buffers, and antis. (several of these will be mages, but at least one anti and one buffer too)
<CiceroCat> and there' are 13 tribes
<CiceroCat> An Anti is an Anti-Mage btw, who feds on the magic of Mages. Mages's magic will fester and they will combust otherwise. Buffer is the one who helps modulate the feedings.
<Fredrick> 13's an unlucky number.
<Rob> Sorry, everyone, I have to eat dinner. Forgot about that. Thanks again for all the help.
<@SLViehl> night Rob
<CiceroCat> Question: Any ideas of events for my Gathering? Food, contests, etc?
<Nathan> Bye Rob
<Fredrick> Good night (not goof)
<James> No worries, see you Rob.
<BarGnat> Sheila: could you add my name to the recipient list when you email that to Emily? Please?
<Danielle> Songs, puppet shows, histories
<Robert and Ari> Thirteen's a great number, small enough for effective discussion and there's a tiebreaker.
<@SLViehl> Tests of skill, strength, endurance -- all pitting like to like
<@SLViehl> Sure Mary
<@Jim> Night Rob!
<Fredrick> Sex contests
<Nathan> Not to those who don't beleive in luck Frederick
<James> Mages going without being drained, see who holds out longest without going up in flames?
<Lucas> Is the gathering in celebration of something? If you know the theme, you can figure out a few of the events.
<Robert and Ari> Each night of thirteen nights, one of the tribes will host the entire event, feed them, entertain them, et cetera.
<Fredrick> Beer drinking, caber toss
<Robert and Ari> And give many gifts like a potlatch.
<CiceroCat> sex contests-- i did consider a sex magic rite to help make more mages and antis and buffers in the tribes
<@SLViehl> Good one, Robert
<Fredrick> Arguing--popular at family functions
<Danielle> Swapping things
<@SLViehl> sings -- spell sings where they combat each other through magic
<CiceroCat> hey they're happy with the number too, 3 is a major important number to the rovers
<James> That sounds good, CC.
<Anne_Marble> Playing Pokemon
<Fredrick>
<Robert and Ari> Each tribe will give a bride to marry into another tribe. Or must have a marriage with each of the others.
<Steven> lol Anne
<Fredrick> Pie eating.
<CiceroCat> also magic contests, any ideas on them?.... ooooh neat idea robert
<@SLViehl> arranging marriages is something that happens in a lot of tribal gatherings between clans
<Robert and Ari> And the bride prices are compared for status.
<CiceroCat> pie eating
<James> Chanting of highlights of previous gatherings.
<Anne_Marble> Actually, they could have something like Pokemon, a complicated contest involving little tiles
<Danielle> Ritualised boasting
<Fredrick> Or try to keep the pies from eating the tribe members
<Nathan> and mine too Sheila
<Kaelle> Good one, Robert. Contests for mates.
<@SLViehl> ghost stories around the fire -- or the equivalent thereof
<Robert and Ari> Each totem has some qualities so there will be some particular thing specific to that tribe that it must do for everyone.
<Nathan> LOL Anne
<Fredrick> lighting farts
<James> Rewards for services to the tribes done during the last nine years.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, evil mage stories around the fire
<CiceroCat> i can't remember if i mentioned it, but this gathering lasts 3 days
<CiceroCat> lol farts lol
<Steven> Too much sugar tonight, Frederick?
<James> Opening and closing displays, ala Olympics.
<Fredrick> Porbably
<CiceroCat> so sports, i tink someone mentioned strenght things might work....
<Danielle> Renewals of friendship vows
<Robert and Ari> Then perhaps the camp feasts are continuing in all 13 camps and so are all the contests and competitions.
<Lucas> There will probably be pranks. For that matter, there might be a running competition (unofficial, of course) as to who could pull of the biggest practical joke on all the tribes. It would be typical festival behaviour. With magic, this could get strange.
<CiceroCat> neat....
<Danielle> Drugtaking
<Robert and Ari> Adoptions of person from one tribe to another take place at a Gathering.
<@SLViehl> negotiating territorial treaties -- hashing out complaints
<Robert and Ari> Drugtaking among the high rank shamans.
<CiceroCat> never consider humor in the contests, that might be interesting
<Fredrick> Yes, drugs. Like Woodstock
<Robert and Ari> I was thinking more ceremonial
<Fredrick> Magic drugs.
<Fredrick> Oops.
<CiceroCat> sex, booze, and rock and roll?
<Robert and Ari> vision questing by a mage shaman
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for CC?
<CiceroCat> lol
<Lucas> Yeah, except in this case they would actually be rolling rocks...
<Danielle> So was I - heightened perceptions, prophecies of the coming year
<CiceroCat> LOL lucas
<Fredrick> Disco.
<CiceroCat> ooh prophecies, that might be neat
<Robert and Ari> At the end they must leave in thirteen different directions at a closing ceremony, not speaking to the others, each tribe gets a prophecy.
<Nathan> Love, liberty, Disco
<@SLViehl> group activities are good, but I like Robert's idea of featuring hosting tribes -- maybe you could have three of them each gathering do that, CC
<Robert and Ari> Top three tribes of last year's competitions? <G>
<Danielle> Like a spoken fortune cookie
<Fredrick> A communal dance that invokes magic
<CiceroCat> neat robert, sheliea
<Fredrick> Crop dance or harvest dance
<CiceroCat> sheila (sorry on the misspell)
<Robert and Ari> Hunt dance
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for terrific ideas. Steven, you're up, then Jim will be after Steven.
<CiceroCat> dances might work-- it's in the spring
<Fredrick> boogie woogie
<CiceroCat> yup thanx all! now i have some ideas
<Robert and Ari> Think African dancing where it's most of the people there doing same moves, by gender?
<Kaelle> Actually CC, Sheliea is a neat typo.
<Nathan> Your welcome CC
<CiceroCat> lol
<@SLViehl> Not bad. I like that better than my spelling. (g)
<Steven> Okay, my question has to do with novel structure. I have events happening in 2 places primarily. Is it best if i switch chapters when I switch locations or can I just have scene breaks within chapters?
<Fredrick> River dance
<CiceroCat> lol
<CiceroCat> river dance
<Robert and Ari> I think intercut scenes with scene breaks are fine, that doesn't trip me as a reader.
<Fredrick> No, arrg, bad idea, sorry
<James> I'd not mind multiple settings in the same chapter.
<@SLViehl> how long are your scenes running, Steven?
<Fredrick> Maybe plays
<CiceroCat> i'm in favor of scene breaks myself if the scenes aren't too long
<Fredrick> I'd go with scene breaks too.
<Danielle> Steven, are the events simultaneous?
<James> So long as the transitions are clear.
<Robert and Ari> # is pretty clear.
<Nathan> How long 'til class is over?
<Steven> they're varying so far but around 1000-1500 words per scene.
<Fredrick> Terry Prachett does a good job juggling multiple POV.
<Steven> the events in each location are more or less parallel, yes.
<Kaelle> I think scene breaks. Chapters might take too long.
<Lucas> Steven, I can't say as how it really makes any difference. I would suppose it would just be a personal preference. I've seen it done with swapping back and forth within chapters and with shifting places for each of the chapters.
<Robert and Ari> Then the intercut scenes might be very dramatic!
<Danielle> Scene breaks sound good
<James> I mean, Robert, not ending and beginning on non-attributed dialogue, which might lead the reader to expect they're in the same setting, with the same characters.
<Robert and Ari> Oh right.
<CiceroCat> yeah clear transitions
<CiceroCat> not long, i think nathan
<Fredrick> Or you could do George RR Martin way in A Game of Thrones? Different people, different chapters. Though I found it annoying.
<CiceroCat> that isn't bad, steven
<@SLViehl> The other thing is, what are you more comfortable with, Steven? Some writers like transitioning within a chapter, some don't.
<CiceroCat> i'd say scene breaks especially if htey connect to one another in some way
<Nathan> Do you see anyone named nathan here...my name is Nathan, not nathan
<James> Then you can use setting changes to control your pace. Short scenes between cuts to increase pace, revers for slower pace.
<Linnet2> Eddings got bad with it too... no clue as to who was talking come the beginning of the scene 'till three paragraphs later
<Steven> So far I've been transitioning within the chapter but I was wondering if that was bad or didn't matter. Technically speaking anyway.
<Catherine/splodge> I do both, Steven
<Nathan> thanks CC
<Catherine/splodge> I don''t hink it matters as long as it isn't confusing
<CiceroCat> i don't think it's bad...
<@SLViehl> I transition a lot, for pacing mainly.
<Robert and Ari> That's a good point. Establish who what where why real fast at top of the scenes and bottom.
<Lucas> I'd keep it if it seems to be working for you. It certainly isn't a "technical" no-no.
<CiceroCat> so do i sheila
<@Jim> Whichever way you choose, try to be consistent about it throughout the book.
<Steven> Alright. that's all I wanted to know. I'm done.
<@SLViehl> good point, Jim
<Linnet2> yes
<Danielle> That's a good tip about pacing
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Steven?
<Fredrick> Movies often use transitions to cut to others.
<Steven> thanks.
<Linnet2> <stretches>
<@SLViehl> I've noticed some big, epic fantasies use humongously long scenes, so if it's genre-relevent, you might want to check that out, Steven.
<Steven> Ok, but this is a SF so...
<Fredrick> Anyone read Stand on Zanzibar. It had rapid cutting.
<Fredrick> IIRC
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for your ideas. Jim, you're up, Robert, you're after Jim.
<@Jim> I'm having a plotting problem with my current WIP. I've discussed this with Robert, but I'd like alternate input. This will take a few lines to explain, so please bear with me as I cut and paste.
<Fredrick> Haven't read it yet, but want to.
<@Jim> I'm working on finishing up the final chapters of my current WIP, Battle Dragon, but I have concerns that the ending may be too weak. Spoilers follow.
<@SLViehl> Oh, then in SF I think you can do anything you want, Steven.
<Steven> ok
<@Jim> The MC (Tataki, a dragon who can assume human form) gets to the bad guy, one bad guy mage uses the "Object Of Power" (OOP) to set off a destroy-the-world-and-make-mage-into-God spell.
<@Jim> Tataki yanks OOP out of ground and uses it to kill the 'new' God. (Earlier plants told readers that the reason the OOP exists is to kill certain Gods.)
<@Jim> Tataki yells at Gods, assuming they're watching and listening, accusing them of being false Gods who are committing genocide (they are, kinda-sorta), and demanding that they show up and defend their actions. They do.
<@Jim> This all leads to arguments about the true history of this world, hidden from the people but much has become known to Tataki over the course of the book.
<@Jim> One of the Gods attacks Tataki and she kills him (idiot should have known better than to challenge angry woman with OOP. One down, four to go.). The Gods, of course, want the OOP.
<@Jim> Tataki refuses to give them the OOP. Her Lord curses her to remain in human form, which she defiantly accepts. He tells her that many will come against her to try to take the OOP... that her life will be unending threats.
<@Jim> The Gods then leave, except for Goddess Arra, who stays to chat.
<@Jim> Denoument scene is Arra telling Tataki that she will have a hard time convincing the people that the Gods are false and draining them of life.
<@Jim> Robert suggested having the Eastern God curse Tataki and Valin to wander the world, one in dragon form and the other in human form, then switch places every half-year (too much like LadyHawke, tho).
<@Jim> My plot seems a bit lame to me. What can I do to liven it up? Any suggestions?
<Robert and Ari> Or Arra could grant both of them immortality to use the OOP and guard it from the gods getting thier hands on it.
<Robert and Ari> That was my other suggestion.
<Robert and Ari> Otherwise gods get OOP in random short number of years and it doesn't really matter.
<James> A big, nasty personal sacrifice on Tataki's part (loss of friend, lover, family member, city of birth) might put a bigger sting into her victory.
<@SLViehl> With the OOP being the focus, I'd mix it up. Have it won and lost, switched around, hidden, stolen, etc.
<@SLViehl> Defiance of the Gods also usually comes with more of a price, I think. I'd have your Tataki really pay for her defiance.
<CiceroCat> i dunno, i like the idea-- i liked ladyhawke and other shows i seen it in
<James> Having won the OOP she becomes the OOP? Or herself becomes a god against her will?
<Robert and Ari> Is this something you'd like to do a sequel in, Jim? Or do you want to tie it up for good?
<@SLViehl> If she takes a human lover, kill him.
<CiceroCat> Near death experiences?
<@SLViehl> Good question, Robert -- is this a one shot only?
<Fredrick> Remove the Gods and have mortal humans vying for godhood.
<Linnet> An interesting view would be to hear from all the humans she comes in contact with. Maybe she had precoceptions of them theat get disabused
<Lucas> If a new ability/property/function of the OOP could be (led up to and then) revealed at the end of the book, thus allowing Tataki to win only when this new thing is revealed.
<Danielle> I'm surprised the Gods all leave after she's killed one of them - wouldn't they rush her and try to get the OOP?
<Lucas> Danielle - Maybe they're kind of chicken.
<Fredrick> I'm not sure about the OOPS. It seems a bit contrived.
<James> Perhaps they know the OOP is cursed -- they leave her to it.
<@SLViehl> Or trick her, or otherwise wrestle it away from her, good idea, Dani
<@Jim> No, Dani... the OOP was made to kill Gods.
<Robert and Ari> Arra could do something self sacrificing like "I know you're right, use it and kill me"
<CiceroCat> what if, like a twist on robert's suggestion: curse them so that the female can only be human during hte day or and dragon at night and the other opposite so they can never be together
<Lucas> And they would be able to just out-wait her, after all, as Robert suggested.
<Linnet> all Gods? Or only certain ones? And would the God know he/she was one of the ones it's supposed to kill?
<Fredrick> What if the MC used his wits rather than a weapon?
<Danielle> I'd try to make the Gods scarier than just giving her that much power cleanly over them
<@SLViehl> If she's really going to give the Gods a run for their money, she needs power at least on their level
<Nathan> Maybe someone could steal the OOP and then the MC and his friend would have to search it down, find out who stole it, and get it back
<Linnet> Fred> how novel! lol
<CiceroCat> who made it Jim? the OOP?
<CiceroCat> maybe a tie-in to that
<Lucas> She can have a totall-god-killing-whammie, but does that make her invulnerable to a well thrown rock?
<James> Perhaps in the presence of the OOP the gods are reduced to her level -- they flee to recharge, she must accept that a lot of humans will be drained for that recharging?
<@Jim> Nathan - that's what most of the novel is about!
<CiceroCat> true Lucas
<@SLViehl> Shades of Vietnam, Lucas
<@Jim> CC: Two of the Gods made it to kill the other Gods.
<Fredrick> Too many gods, I think. If you kill a God, then it wasn't much of a God to begin with.
<Nathan> oh...I must not be paying much attention
<CiceroCat> Hmmm.... So maybe, like how programmers put in sneaky things in their products, those Gods put in sneaky things in the OOP?
<Danielle> cool, CC!
<CiceroCat> and the MC finds out about them by accident
<Robert and Ari> It wasn't, that's part of the spoiler, they're self apointed formerly human Gods and only Arra actually bothers to do the job well, Goddess of Healing is actually doing that.
<James> Maybe it can only "kill" one god at a time. She kills one god, the previous "killed" god reappears, in a very bad mood.
<@Jim> Nathan: Well, I didn't exactly point that out here...
<@SLViehl> an OOP virus
<@SLViehl> maybe the OOP has to recharge after one use
<Fredrick> Maybe like in Harla Ellison's work, people forget the Gods.
<Danielle> an OOP easter egg
<Fredrick> And that makes them lose power.
<Lucas> Maybe the other gods are increased in power, like the power of a dead god is redistributed equally (or is up for grabs!) among the surviving ones.
<CiceroCat> lol
<@Jim> Part of the point is that they are all false gods... mages who have way too much power.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Jim?
<Linnet> Would she have to go look for who made the OOP?
<Lucas> So the more gods you kill, the tougher the rest of them get.
<CiceroCat> Maybe everytime the OOP is used, the maker Gods can pin point the locatoin of said weapon
<Robert and Ari> I see potential in a sequel. Though an epilogue where mortal Tataki has managed to end the religion and the gods are powerless by the time the old lady's dead would be ironic... then the dragons come back.. whoops sequel again.
<Fredrick> What if these people had no concept of God or religion?
<Nathan> Maybe whenever someone uses the OOP they lose a memory or something
<@Jim> No she knows who made the OOP... they're right there with her in the fanale.
<CiceroCat> ah
<James> Perhaps it makes her ill -- as if it were radioactive or similar, very, terminally ill?
<@SLViehl> I'd put some kinks into the plot -- get the OOP out of Tataki's hands, and put it up for grabs. Have the false Gods and the MC fight to get it.
<CiceroCat> Or steals a year of her life per use?
<Catherine/splodge> I need to go guys - thanks for a great session!
<Robert and Ari> Can she use it to destroy the system - destroy all the rods that give energy to the gods?
<Danielle> bye, Splodge!
<@SLViehl> I'd also have her fall in love with someone and kill that character in the end.
<Linnet> Take care Splodge!
<CiceroCat> bye splodge
<James> See you, Catherine.
<Nathan> Bye Splodge
<@SLViehl> Night Catherine
<CiceroCat> or what if the weapon is sentient
<Anne_Marble> See ya Catherine
<Robert and Ari> See you later, Catherine!
<CiceroCat> I don't want to kill anyone, it whines
<CiceroCat> lol
<Fredrick> The OOP sounds a bit too much like a plot coupon, I'm afraid, like the Sword of Shannara.
<Robert and Ari> What if she's trapped human because she killed them all?
<Danielle> lol CC
<Linnet> God, what a life... "Another day, another murder>"
<Lucas> Bah, the weapon just wants to kill all the gods so it can take over.
<CiceroCat>
<CiceroCat> lol
<Robert and Ari> And at the end the old red dragon laughs... "It is our time..."
<James> To use the OOP you need to drain a human as the gods do -- completely in this case, and someone she loves is the only human available when she needs to use the OOP?
<@Jim> Ok... that gives me some ideas to consider... thanks, everyone!
<CiceroCat> if you make a twist on the weapon, i don't believe there's anything wrong with it-- look at our own world, we have things that can turn against us
<CiceroCat> sounds very interesting jim
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some twisty ideas -- Robert, you're up, JamiJo is outta here, so Emily will be after Robert
<Nathan> Have a parasite come down and bite one of the MC's so that they can't do anything for a day or two and in that day or two MC thinks that the OOP is lost/destroyed
<Fredrick> Sentient spider webs as a weapon
<Nathan> Er...something like that
<CiceroCat> it could be a Zen like thing too-- do good with it, something bad happens elsewhere
<Nathan> lol Frederick
<Danielle> Gardenias
<James>
<Robert and Ari> I have a website, http://www.selfhelpforwriters.com - which will no longer be on a free host after July 31.
<CiceroCat> lol gardenias sprout from the end of it to munch on the male users
<CiceroCat> robert
<James> Sorry, everyone, I have to make a run for it. Again, thank you all! See everyone at the next one
<Robert and Ari> I need to decide what to do with it - move it or keep it and pay, or adapt it and start using more other things than articles and column, broadening topic to include a little fiction.
<@SLViehl> night James
<BarGnat> bummer
<Nathan> Bye Jame
<@Jim> Bye James!
<CiceroCat> night James
<Danielle> See you, James
<Fredrick> I'd suggest moving it, Robert.
<Linnet> See ya James
<Nathan> Jame= James
<Robert and Ari> If I moved it I'd have a totally free hand and could add fiction. If I don't, I still might since Webseed's rules are loosening.
<Lucas> Good night James.
<CiceroCat> Is it a good service?
<@SLViehl> I'd move it, Robert. Why pay for something you can have hosted free elsewhere?
<BarGnat> Night
<Robert and Ari> It's an excellent service, one of two places I can do things without knowing HTML - the sticker is that I don't know HTML and it will take a lot for me to learn it.
<Nathan> Find another place that does free websites
<Emily> Keep in mind that free services are constantly getting rarer, harder to use, and more limited.
<@SLViehl> How much are they asking for rent?
<CiceroCat> If you can afford it and like the service, you could consider keeping it....
<@Jim> Look at brokewriters design forum... there were some recommendations there for free web hosting.
<Robert and Ari> I've got till July to decide but it's the most popular page I have. They haven't said yet.
<Fredrick> What is the name of the web host? Can you give it?
<Robert and Ari> It may turn out to be cheap reliable hosting. It's been reasonably reliable.
<Robert and Ari> Webseed
<Fredrick> Have other people logged complaints or petitioned to keep it free?
<Robert and Ari> I'm building a steady readership so I don't really want to deep six it.
<CiceroCat> Geocities I think has templates, so does Angelfire? ... Maybe cohost it with someone who knows a lot of HTML, Robert and put it up on a freebie page?
<Robert and Ari> Uh, that debate already took place and they made a final decision.
<@SLViehl> Have you thought about advertising on the site to help pay for the costs?
<Fredrick> Good idea, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Geocities no longer has FTP, though, I believe. Not for free, anyway.
<CiceroCat> does your internet service offer a free webpage?
<Robert and Ari> That's the other route - try to generate some ad revenue and keep it there.
<Lucas> Who's going to pay to advertise to writers? What would make anyone think they have any money?
<@SLViehl> Amazon.com associates advertising helps pay, and the links are non-instrusive
<Robert and Ari> I could try to use Freewebz which gives you 100mb with no ads, but if I stay where I am, I have a free hand with ads.
<Anne_Marble> And they have those Amazon links where you can donate money
<@SLViehl> good point, Lucas
<CiceroCat> ah
<@Jim> Ask Zette... maybe she has some ideas.
<CiceroCat> ture
<Robert and Ari> That's one thing I was thinking of, trying to work out more books links. I've got three months to do this transition and unless they're an expensive one I'd probably rather not have to try to move it.
<Anne_Marble> Can you link to Fictionwise? Do their ads pay well?
<CiceroCat> Isn't there a thread or something on the boards about webpages (how to get them cheeply and stuff?)
<Robert and Ari> There's the Brokewriters Forum
<Fredrick> What about Geocities?
<@SLViehl> There's the brokewebdesigner's board
<Lucas> Do you know how much they might start charging?
<Robert and Ari> where i have to add to my post about Webseed.
<CiceroCat> ah
<Robert and Ari> That's what they have not announced, my guess from all their previous policies is they may try to keep the fee low.
<@Jim> CC: Yes, that's the brokewriters webpage forum.
<Fredrick> How low?
<Robert and Ari> THey took a vote and a majority wouldn't mind a low fee.
<CiceroCat> ah
<@SLViehl> The other thing would be to get sponsors, Robert -- give people personal space to advertise, like Locus online does.
<Fredrick> <Sigh>
<Robert and Ari> They were talking $25 a year when they were first doing it.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<Robert and Ari> That would be cool, Sheila! I'd like to do something like that and links that are relevant to topic.
<CiceroCat> look around, do a search for free webpages with html utilities
<Anne_Marble> From what I've heard, you're better off paying a little bit than using Geocities.
<Fredrick> I still say move. With your popularity, I'm sure you can bring other readers/writers with you.
<Emily> If moving to a place where you'd need to know HTML is a big sticking point, I'd be glad to offer some help in that area.
<@SLViehl> Figure on advertising -- the non-intrusive, no-flashing kind -- and see if you can get that to pay for the site.
<CiceroCat> ones that will help you make one without little or no knowledge --- (online search)
<@SLViehl> Or classifieds.
<Robert and Ari> Yeah... oh classifieds would be nice! I wouldn't have to charge a lot for them. And they wouldn't intrude and they would be organized, like anewspaper's.
<Fredrick> They have online tutorials for HTML.
<Nathan> Gayle> what a lot of my friends are doing are buying domain nmes that are close to what they had with 'the company' and transfering everything right now so that their "customers" will transfer over without any problems
<CiceroCat> I have a page at Geocities, but i can't remember if they are the ones that don't allow freebies to use FTP or not
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for your suggestions -- Emily, have you got a question for the group tonight?
<Nathan> nmes=names
<CiceroCat> true... and there's this neat laminated page thing with HTML how to build it and stuff... i cant' remember the company, but i'll send you link when i do
<Emily> Yeah. How do I decide how to prioritize writing projects?
<CiceroCat> they show exaples and it's only a like 4 pages
<@SLViehl> How many have you got going, Em?
<Robert and Ari> Emily, this may sound silly but I finally managed it using the Dares.
<Fredrick> Ask yourself what do you want to write the most?
<CiceroCat> over other writing projects, over Real Life stuf, Emily?
<Emily> I'm 40,000 words into a novel, and I'm also doing a rewrite of another novel that's almost as bad as writing it from scratch.
<Nathan> Do we want to know how many you are working on?
<Nathan> (Projects that is)
<Robert and Ari> Emily, how easy or hard is it for you to switch gears between writing and rewriting?
<Fredrick> I'd suggest dropping the rewrite and going with the original. That's what I did on my last one.
<CiceroCat> are you the kind of person who likes routine or schedules, Emily?
<CiceroCat> Or spontaneity
<Steven> Didn't Holly say something about how we already had some space at Network54 from being members?
<Fredrick> Rewrites can wait. But it's best to get original first drafts done as fast as you can.
<Emily> When I'm doing rewriting, it's hard for me to get back into writing new stuff.
<CiceroCat> If schedules, schedule in time for just one project for that ime slot
<CiceroCat> neat steven
<@SLViehl> I do my writing when I'm not tired, because that takes the most energy. I edit when I'm too tired to write.
<Linnet> <nods> You forget hooks and plot lines all too quickly
<Fredrick> O.K. Are you usually a project hopper or a sticktoer?
<Emily> I thought that I would be able to rewrite during the day when I had use of the computers, and write new stuff at night and in the early morning, but I don't have the energy for that.
<Nathan> Save the rewrite onto a disk (If it's not already) then put it away somewhere safe until you've finished the new
<Fredrick> Don't worry if you don't get everything done at once.
<@SLViehl> I used to do the same thing, Emily, then I switched and I'm getting a lot more done.
<@SLViehl> New writing in the morning, editing at night.
<Fredrick> Life is too hectic to focus on too many stories at once.
<Nathan> Gotta go eat dinner....see you all later
<Linnet> If the rewrite is as drastic as you're suggesting, then you're almost trying to write two different novels at the same time
<@SLViehl> night Nathan
<Danielle> bye Nathan
<CiceroCat> Yeah give you a lot of time... If not reaching goals are depressing you, try to undershoot your goals and gradually build up-- that will give you confidence and work your way slowly up so less draining on you
<BarGnat> Night Nathan
<CiceroCat> night Nathan
<Emily> That sounds like a good idea to try when I have my own computer again.
<Robert and Ari> If you have trouble shifting gears easily, like I do, do the writing first and get it all done, then concentrate on rewriting.
<@SLViehl> Do you find it easier to work on one project at a time, or can you work effectively on both?
<@Jim> Bye Nathan!
<Fredrick> I'd focus on one novel project at a time. That way I'm clear on what I'm doing.
<Danielle> oops, gotta go too, bye
<@SLViehl> night Danielle
<Robert and Ari> See you later, Daniele
<Linnet> Bye Danielle
<BarGnat> Night
<@Jim> Bye Dani!
<CiceroCat> undershoot your goals, I mean make them smaller than what you think you can
<Fredrick> Auf weidersehen
<CiceroCat> night Dani
<Emily> I'm not sure, really. I tend to work on one project at a time.
<Linnet> My suggestion would be to finish the novel that you're 40k into... then sit back and concentrate more on the rewrites for the two
<CiceroCat> maybe that's the problem, you're not used to working on two
<Robert and Ari> Then finish the writing. It's much easier to pick up a rewrite in progress than a half done novel that's been put down - for me anyway.
<@SLViehl> Then I'd write the novel first, get that out of the way, then do your rewrites.
<Fredrick> Yes, Linett, I think that's the best way to go.
<@SLViehl> exactly, Robert
<CiceroCat> Do you really want to write on one? Maybe use it as a reward system for writing some on the other
<Robert and Ari> Rewriting one and rewriting the other doesn't take much remembering what all's going on.
<Lucas> Emily - You don't have your own computer? Gah! Look around, I've found that people are practically throwing old 166mhz computers at us. That is plenty fast enough to run a word processor.
<CiceroCat> true robert
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Emily?
<Emily> I'm living in Japan. Buying a computer to only use for one year would be ridiculously wasteful.
<Robert and Ari> I just did rewrites on three different stories in one day, different genres at that and it was all the same process - oh what works in this one...
<Fredrick> Having to wait to write is sometimes a great incentive.
<Robert and Ari> Not if it's an old cheap model that's almost out of date anyway, Emily.
<@Jim> Emily - get a notebook PC.
<Robert and Ari> Give it away when you're done with it to someone who doesn't have one.
<CiceroCat> If you could obtain a copy of an OS and other stuff for your computer, sometimes you can get computers real cheap if they have nothiing on them... we had a deal just for ht computer, no monitor, OS, or keyboard for that cheep\
<Fredrick> Or buy a manual typewriter.
<Emily> I think that you're right, and I should get back into writing the new novel.
<Robert and Ari> If you want to learn Linux, that's a free OS
<@SLViehl> can you rent a computer, Emily? Or is it too expensive?
<Linnet> Atta girl
<CiceroCat> notebook is like a laptop, right? That's kinda expensive
<Emily> Would you believe me if I said I didn't even have space in the dorm for a laptop? Anyway, I'm only here for 5 more months or so.
<@Jim> you can find cheaper ones on Ebay.
<Fredrick> Or you can write longhand.
<Robert and Ari> Cheap old computer, used, and get Linux on it with StarOffice which I think runs on Linux
<CiceroCat> ah a dorm
<Lucas> Oh, right, japan. Sorry about that. I have no idea how available equipment is over there. I was just thinking about how it is where I'm at, people just give away old computers that are suitable for word processing.
<Robert and Ari> Get a Visor.
<Emily> That's what I'm doing, writing longhand--but typing the rewrites.
<CiceroCat> Consider writing by hand on paper?
<CiceroCat> or by a typewriter with erasing abilities
<Fredrick> Can you buy a tape record and dictate stories?
<@SLViehl> And thanks to all for your suggestions -- this wraps up tonight's think tank, which was utterly fantastic
<Linnet> portable wordprocessor?
<Fredrick> Then have someone transcribe them for you.
<Robert and Ari> And a free Yahoo account using the briefcase function to store and back up from your Visor
<CiceroCat> there was an add for that somehwere, Linnet
<@Jim> Thanks everyone!
<Lucas> Anyway, it sounds like you're under space and budget constraints. That's rough.
<CiceroCat> in a Writer's Digest magazine... seemed neat
<Fredrick> Yes, I have Yahoo! Briefcase. Great tool.
<Robert and Ari> Thanks everybody! Happy writing!
<Fredrick> http://briefcase.yahoo.com
<Fredrick> Hope that URL is right.
<CiceroCat> Thanks all ; wonderful TT
<Linnet> Goodnight all!
<@SLViehl> I'm going to do a transcript and post it as soon as I get clear here -- thanks to all for a great session, and hope to see you next week
<Emily> Thanks, and good...afternoon, actually.
<@SLViehl> lol Emily
<Lucas> Wow, time to go to bed. Good night everyone! This was a refreshing interlude.
<Kaelle> My head is still spinning from tonight's session. AND my browser is slow. But great to be here once again. Thanks Sheila!! Night everyone!
<Fredrick> Domo arigato goshemitsu
<Robert and Ari> Night everyoone! Thanks Sheila! See y'all in chat!
<Anne_Marble> My browser is preparing for a race against a hare.
<@SLViehl> Night all -- see you around the site -- bye!