After the First Draft, Class 4

Pre-Class Rules:  Please don't chat during class.  Please do not post until you see the word QUESTIONS, and stop posting question when you see CLASS.  I'll be glad to discuss any of this material later if there are any questions.

This is the last section of the official class, and it's going to be short. After this we'll talk about individual problems that you might have with editing.  Future meetings, probably once or twice a month, will focus on any problems you wish to email to me or that you just bring to class.

Since this is the last class, I'm going to quickly go over what I feel are some of the more important aspects of working on material after you have the first draft completed.

I'm numbering the points in this class starting with one and going on from there.  It will not match up with previous classes in that respect.

1 -- Attitude.  There are two things that can make editing and rewriting difficult, if not impossible. The first is believing that you've written a perfect first draft.  The second is dreading the work.  Rewrites are a part of the writer's work and one of his best tools.  Use it wisely and well.

I've often had Heinlein's supposed rule 'Never rewrite, except at the direction of the editor' waved at me as an excuse for not rewriting.  What people don't realize is that this was taken out of context.

He never advised against rewriting, only not to do it between the time a story is sent off and you hear from the publisher.  Once out of your hands, stop rewriting until you hear from an editor.

2.  Do a first read and fix big problems.

That covers all the major 'leap out at you things.'  Fix plot holes, write sub-plots, shorten works etc.  Don't linger over the irritating little problems in sentence structure and such.  If you can fix something quickly, do it.  Move on.

3.  Nitpicking.

Grammar, sentence structure, etc.  I print out a copy at this point and start working my way through the story. This is my least favorite part of the rewrite because it's the one I'm most likely to mess up.  But it still has to be done.

And now we're going on to the final steps in how I do a rewrite.

Step 4 -- One more time, with feeling

So, I've gone through the earlier steps and I have a nice, clean manuscript.  I think I've fixed everything I can, and whatever other problems exist are beyond my ability to see.  I'm ready to send it out...

Well, not quite.  I have one very specific problem that I always leave until last to deal with. When I write a story, of whatever length, I see it in my head.  When I read and edit it, the story still plays out in the same way.

What I don't notice is that the details I 'see' are often not on the paper or screen. They are in my head. So after I have made all the other corrections, I go back and start adding the little sensory details that make a story come alive for others.

Why wait until the last run?  For me it's the 'carrot' approach.  I dislike line editing for grammar, punctuation and such. But I know when I get it done, I can go back and add in the new details. 

Also, I've found that it's easier to add details when I have the rest of the story in finished form.  I can see the whole, and not worry about whether this section is going to be cut later, and details here will be lost to the overall story.

I have occasionally written in an important piece of description and lost it later in cuts.  Be careful. 

Also, of course, be consistent.  Use like words to describe the same person -- don't, for instance, describe someone with auburn hair in one moment and dark red in the next.

There is a specific way to do this rewrite that stops me from seeing the story in my head.  I start at the very last page and work forward, putting some bit of description on every page.  Sound, scent, touch, taste, sight -- whatever.

When I do this sort of rewrite (and I don't do it often enough), I try to add some sensory material to every page.  By starting at the end I don't follow the story scene-by-scene, and see things in my mind that are not on the paper. 

Detail needs to be used in fine amounts to add color and texture (etc), but not so much that it overpowers the story.   Don't use it as filler to make a story longer.

Be certain that what your description says is what you mean it to say.  If you find yourself using a word you haven't before, check the meaning.  It won't hurt to be certain, and it will hurt to be wrong.

Descriptions can, of course, add considerable depth to a story.  They can ground the reader in the reality by giving them just the clues they need to make the story real.

Use thesauruses, synonym finders, word menus and dictionaries.  Learn words, even if you don't think you'll use them.  There is a theory about language and experience -- that we cannot truly experience something if we cannot express it.

The more words you know, the more life you'll live.

Step 5 -- Read aloud

No, you aren't quite done.  Take the story and read it aloud.  Yes, the entire novel, if that's what you're working on.  If you stumble over sentences, rework them -- no matter how pretty they may look.

This one is hard.  We read differently in our heads, especially as writers, than we do aloud. This does not mean you should make nothing but short sentences.  Just make certain the lines flow well.

QUESTIONS

• Nonny --  Another reason for reading aloud is to catch typos.
• Peggy --  Do you line-edit whatever you add in the "One more time" section?
• Nonny --  I read my stuff aloud and I catch typos I would *never* have caught otherwise. I have a tendency to transpose words when I write -- "bear" to "bare" and vice versa -- and reading aloud helps tremendously on that.
• @zette --  No, I usually don't Peggy.  By then I have the lines the way I want them, and if I do this properly, I'm not adding huge chunks of material, just sprinkling a few words here and there.
• Peggy --  Ah, okay, zette.  I see.
• @zette --  I don't catch those aloud, Nonny, but I can see where it would help.
• Julia --  I love the tip for adding detail during rewriting! That will help me a lot
• Nonny --  Me too, Julia.
• Peggy --  nods head vigorously --   What Julia said.
• @zette --  If I do find I'm adding a huge chunk of something, then I will line edit it.  But since I do the read aloud last, I'll generally catch anything really bad there.
• Nonny --  I have very little description in my book. I know I'll have to add a lot, because I don't think I have hardly any at all.
• Peggy --  Define a "huge chunk," zette.  A paragraph?  A page?
• Nonny --  Am I the only one who finds line edits to be really easy?
• Peggy --  Nonny--I don't have a problem with the line edits, either.
• @zette --  Anything from a paragraph on.
• BarGnat Mary --  Nonny --  Nope.
• Steven --  Is this also the stage where you submit to a crit circle or whatever (assuming you belong to one) for a final review?
• @zette --  Description is a problem I have.  And far too often I skip this section when I shouldn't.
• BarGnat Mary --  I don't know if it's good or bad, but I've been putting the "big chunks" of my rewrite in red, rather than black like the rest of it
• @zette --  Steven, I'm covering crit circles and when to post in the next section or the one after.  (grin)
• Steven --  ah. okay.
• @zette --  Yup, next section. We'll be to it in a moment.
• Nonny --  After I do the initial run-through revision for *Sanctuary* I plan to post it to the Circle or do a swap; however, after I finish the second revision based on critiquer's responses, do I have it critted again, or do I figure it's good enough and send out?
• Nonny --  Oops. Sorry.
• Nonny --  I posted just as you did.
• Catherine/splodge --  Nonny - I'll do a novel swap if you want.
• @zette --  LOL.  That happens a lot, Nonny.
• Nonny --  That'd be nice -- I want to do the initial revision first, and that'll probably be next month.
• Catherine/splodge --  Ok - sounds good to me
• Nonny --  How long is long enough, generally, to wait before starting revisions?
• Nonny --  On short stories, a couple weeks is usually good, but it's different with novels.
• @zette --  We do, by the way, have a novel swap group.  However, it's for final drafts -- the ones where you think the manuscript is ready to go out, but you want one last reading.
• Nonny --  Cool, Zette, that'll be what I'm looking for *after* I get the thing revised.
• @zette --  We covered that in the first class, but... novels are really not any different from short stories in that respect.  Especially since you will have written the opening a long time before you get to the end.
• Gayle --  How do I find out about the novel swap group?
• @zette --  It's listed in one of the boards. We are preparing for another round -- people are teamed up with others who join.  I'll post on the discussion board when we're ready to ask for people.
• @zette --  It generally runs for a couple months at a shot to give people plenty of time.
• Gayle --  okay...thank you
• Catherine/splodge --  sounds cool, Zette
• Peggy --  wishes she had her novel ready for a swap --
• @zette --  We'll be there when you are ready, Peggy.
• @zette --  Okay, on to the next section!  But before that... none of you are to take anything I say in this section personally!  I know some of you do the things here that I say not to do, but just keep in mind the reasons I say it's not good.
• @zette --  Okay?
• BarGnat Mary --  k
• Nonny --  OK.
• Catherine/splodge --  ok
• Gayle --  yes ma'am
• Catherine/splodge --  is worried now --
• Peggy --  k
• Julia --  ::toughens skin:: sure
• @zette --  (grin)  Don't worry.  It's not that bad!
• Nonny --  Can we ask questions on why we're not supposed to if we don't understand?
• @zette --  Absolutely.
• @zette --  Now, on to the class!
•  

CLASS

The last few sections will cover special rewriting circumstances.

Step 6 -- Rewriting and Critiques

You've written your story.  You want critiques.  You write The End, save, and go post it to your critique group.

Bad idea, and for several reasons.

First, you are looking for others to do the basic work you need to do for yourself.  Even though you may ask for a 'just tell me what you think' critique, you are not going to be too upset if someone corrects some grammar and punctuation, right?

Why are you wasting the time of other writers for things you can and should do for yourself?  Always keep in mind that everyone at this site has their own material to work on.

You are likely going to post several versions of this story if you start with your first draft.  Don't wear your critiquers out with early drafts.  Learn to do the work yourself, and you'll write better for it.  You'll find yourself doing far fewer drafts, too.

And one last important point -- in the past Forward Motion has been visited by professional editors and agents, including Russell Galen.  Do you really want your first draft 'hot off the presses with every error still there' to represent you to these people?

Critique circles should be for the very BEST version you can turn out.  Then let others find the problems that you absolutely can't find.  If you want to have people read your first draft, do it through emails and privately.

Now, what do you do once you get a critiqued story back? There are going to be several types of critiques that you might possibly get.  And the more critiques you get, the more likely you are to get some of each of them.

Some will be incredibly helpful. You might recognize the problems the moment they are pointed out to you.  This is, of course, the best kind of critique to get.

You won't always know a good critique the moment you see one because quite often your embarrassment factor has kicked in to shield you from feeling stupid.  You might get angry at the points the critiquer makes.

If you find a critique like that, set it aside.  Look at it later.  Read pieces in it out of sequence.  You may find that you agree after all.

Another kind of critique is the one where the person really just didn't get it. Beware of any critique that starts out with "I don't read fantasy, but I'm critiquing your piece anyway."  As long as they stick to things like grammar and punctuation, they'll do fine.

However, if they start covering things like story tropes, the use of magic, etc., look twice at the advice.  Sometimes they can offer something truly unique and helpful. Sometimes they just don't get it.

Remember one important thing when you get critiques and start applying them to your own work:  We are all writers here and we are all going to bring our own vision of how we would have written the story to the critique.

Don't rewrite the story to suit someone else's vision of it.  You know your story.  If someone tells you a plot problem, look carefully to make sure they are not suggesting a change to suit their tastes, not your story.

QUESTIONS

• Nonny --  jaw drops --  Russell Galen cruises the crit circles?
• Peggy --  That's the best advice on critiquing I think I've ever seen.
• Nonny --  What Peggy said.
• Nonny --  Truthfully, I think the negative crits are the most helpful.
• @zette --  He did come by back when we first moved to this site.  He spent hours here.
• Nonny --  Wow.
• Julia --  wow. that's scary... and really cool at the same time
• BarGnat Mary --  Once you've posted something to a crit circle, and due to good advice have made a major change in your novel, is it difficult to get your posts removed?
• @zette --  But the truth is, we don't know who some of the people are.  They could be ANYONE using an on-line name.  Keep that in move.
• Peggy --  I've been the blessed recipient of one of those on-point crits you mentioned.
• Robert --  That could happen more and more too as more members get published and gain good reputations.
• @zette --  It's easy, Mary.  Just post a note to it asking to have it remmoved.
• Peggy --  Boy, does that help!
• Catherine/splodge --  I've had some good crits, too
• Nonny --  Mary, you just edit the message with "MODERATOR--PLEASE DELETE" as the subject.
• BarGnat Mary --  thx
• @zette --  Yup, that does it, Nonny.
• Catherine/splodge --  I think I may be too harsh as a critiquer, though
• Nonny --  Catherine, how so?
• Peggy --  Catherine--then you can crit me anytime!
• Nonny --  (ditto Peggy!)
• BarGnat Mary --  Your crits are extremely helpful, IMO, Catherine
• Robert --  I know I tend to critique when asked nicely (if I have time) or to cruise looking for things in my favorite genres and subgenres.
• Julia --  I'd rather too harsh than too lenient, really. It'd hurt, but it would help enough to be worth it to me.
• Catherine/splodge --  I tend to be very picky, and ask fundamental questions about the story
• @zette --  Helpful crits are good.  Nothing wrong with picky and fundamental questions. Those are good crits.
• Peggy --  But Catherine--that's essential.
• Nonny --  Catherine --  That novel swap is looking even better ...
• Catherine/splodge --  Sometimes I've been opinionated and wrong
• Robert --  Catherine, if you're asking *questions* you can't offend me. You'll show me where I didn't make something clear.
• Peggy --  Nothing wrong with either of those, Catherine.  No one is perfect.
• @zette --  Hey, that happens to hall of us, Catherine.
• @zette --  I can not type tonight.
• Peggy --  Ditto Robert.
• @zette --  On harsh crits though.... I did write an article, I think back in the first issue of Vision, about how you should try to mold your crits to the level of the writer.
• BarGnat Mary --  Even if you tell me something really sucks, it won't offend me if you tell me WHY
• Robert --  Nonny critiqued my first chapter and highlighted two different spots where insufficient infodump made it jarring.
• @zette --  If you have someone who has posted their very first story, and you take a hatchet to it (even if it needs it), you are likely to stop that writer from tying again.
• Robert --  I was too close to the *series* to know what  a reader needs to know about the special physics and nonhuman races.
• Peggy --  (That may be the first time I've ever seen the words 'insufficient' and 'infodump' used in precisely that order.)
• Nonny --  I had a critiquer on Critters that wrote a 6k critique for me. I didn't agree with everything he said (as in, unsympathetic character, everyone else had liked her), but that crit helped me a ton.
• Catherine/splodge --  I can usually tell where a person is, though from the story.
• Catherine/splodge --  Most of the people I've been mean too are good writers
• Robert --  I was profoundly grateful for that, Nonny. I literally couldn't have seen it. But if I get that bit right, a new reader if that's my first pro book may like the series and want the prequels!
• Nonny --  You're welcome, Robert!
• @zette --  I had a Critter tell me that one of my novels was entirely wrong, I had the wrong main character, I should be telling her brother's story (and detailed it in a few paragraphs), and drop her.  She wanted an entirely different book.
• Catherine/splodge --  Robert operates by the principle "the reader doesn't need to know" which is true most of the time
• Peggy --  Wow, zette.  I did not know that we had true psychics who knew what you meant even when you didn't.
• Robert --  Robert used to have a bad case of Herbert's Duneitis, make sure the lecture on planetary ecology takes the whole chapter.
• BarGnat Mary --  hehehe
• Julia --  lol @ Peggy
• Nonny --  Zette --  I've had crits like that, too. The critter mentioned that from the beginning, it seemed like the side character was the main character. shrugs --
• @zette --  Yeah, it was amazing.  But that's how far off critiques can be.  She didn't like the main character.  I found out later she just didn't like strong female main characters.
• Nonny --  * that the side character SHOULD BE the MC ...
• Nonny --  Zette --  Those kind of books are my favorites.
• Robert --  If I get something where I see myself reacting that way, I try to say that in the critique.
• @zette --  Okay, we have one last short section to get through, and then we can discuss critiquing and rewrite horror stories.  (grin)
• Robert --  And in my head I'll have a character who is the type of person who'd LIKE the story.
• Nonny --  LOL Zette
•  

CLASS

Step 7 -- Rewriting with an eye toward a specific market.

So, you've been reading all the big name magazines in your genre, and you see that suddenly there is a plethora of cats controlling civilization stories.  Wow.  You can write that and get in on it, right?

Wrong.  Print magazines buy up to a year in advance of what we see on the stands. What you see is not only old news to the editors, who have happened on their next big trend already, but you are not alone in thinking you can write this story.

Over the next few months they are going to see hundreds of cats ruling the world stories.  They're going to be so sick of cats ruling the world, that one hint that you've sent them something like that will be an instant rejection.

But I really do have a GREAT cat ruling the world idea! 

Excellent.  Write it.  Don't send it to the places that already had all those stories. Try different markets that might be on the tail end (so to speak) of the trend.  Or hold on to it.  Next year the editor might look at it with nostalgia rather than disgust.

Now, what if you have a story that you want to send to a magazine, but it's too long.  They're guidelines say they don't want anything over 5,000 words and yours is 6323 words.

Don't ignore the guidelines, no matter how wonderful and perfect you think the story is.  And whatever you do, don't write in a cover letter that you've ignored the guidelines because the story is wonderful.  That is a very bad impression. 

Either start ruthlessly editing, or find another market.  I'm for the ruthless edit, myself.  I take the story (about 26 pages) and see that I have to cut about 50 words per page.  So I print it out and start scratching out words.

Also remember that print magazines are more likely to take a shorter work by a new writer than a longer story.

ALWAYS read AND FOLLOW the guidelines. They apply to you. Don't send werewolf stories to a magazine that doesn't print fantasy.  If you have something that borders on the edge of what they take, give it a try.  They can only say no.

Study the markets.  Read as many of the magazines as you can.  That goes for both print and ezine.  Take your work seriously, no matter where you send it. 

QUESTIONS

CLASS

Step 8 -- Rewriting after rejections

A story goes out.  It comes back. Form rejection.  Hmmm....  So you send it again.  Form rejection with a checklist, which is only nominally better.  But it might help.

Look it over.  Consider what it says.  It may be that the story has been away from you long enough that you can see what the editor is saying.  Rewrite if you think you've found something.

Otherwise, just send it off again.  If you keep getting rejections that say the same thing (The opening is flat, or the ending didn't make sense, etc.) then be sure to look specifically at that problem.

If a manuscript keeps coming back because it doesn't quite fit the publications to which you send it, consider changing from print to ezine... but not because it's easier to sell to ezines. 

Print publications have to look at every story with an eye to the larger market.  They won't material that will appeal to the greatest number of people.  That means they can rarely go out on a limb with something very unusual.

Ezines have the ability to create niche markets that are not available in print.  Yes, the market might have very few readers and the money low or nonexistent, but it is available for the story that just will not sell.

If you love vampire stories set in the old west, chances are you're going to be able to find a market on the Internet.  I've heard that there is a growing novel market in ebooks for that sub-sub-genre. 

I suspect you might find an ezine for a shorter piece on the same subject.

And that is the end of class material!

QUESTIONS

• BarGnat Mary --  One comment, zette: WELL DONE!!!
• Peggy --  That was pretty thorough, especially for being (relatively) brief, zette.  No questions here.
• Nonny --  Ditto Mary!
• Robert --  Zette, you did once tell me in chat to do at least a read through and check on a story before resubmitting - and you were right!
• Catherine/splodge --  Sounds good to me, Zette!
• Julia --  this has been a huge help (and inspiration) to rewrite my monster! ::claps:: THANK YOU!
• Robert --  I found a tiny blooper in Incident at Clermont that I didn't see, the editor didn't see that rejected it (or didn't mention) and the critiquer didn't see when I asked Kay to crit it.
• Nonny --  So ... let me go up and get my question ...
• Robert --  Thank you!!! This is so helpful.
• @zette --  I'm glad people liked the class.  Good.
• Peggy --  tosses a rose on the ice for zette --
• @zette --  (zette slips)  Ice?
• Peggy --  In a rink, zette.
• Robert --  But I wanted to slip that in because there are never enough proofreaders or proofreads on anything.
• Julia --  like ice skating, Peggy?
• Peggy --  That's it, Julia.
• @zette --  It's still ice.  I'm still going to slip.  And I live in Nebraska.  Winter is such... fun.
• Nonny --  After I do the initial run through for *Sanctuary* and get it critted, do I post it for a second run through on crits to make sure I've changed it well enough, or do I just hope for the best and submit it?
• Peggy --  zette--you need to move out here to Las Vegas.  No ice, except in the cocktails.
• Julia --  ::slides a big fluffy pillow under Zette::
• @zette --  You can if you want another reading, Nonny.  If you have people willing to check it over again, go for it.
• @zette --  It never hurts to have a last reading after changes.
• Gayle --  yeah...but the dessert get a little hot during the summers
• Nonny --  Thanks Zette!
• Robert --  Nonny, you make a valid point there. Sometimes on critiques I go ahead and say "send it in" if that's my immediate impression.
• Peggy --  Gayle--so far this year, it's been quite cool.  Haven't topped 100 yet.
• @zette --  I love the desert. Grew up in LA.  I miss the Mojave.
• BarGnat Mary --  Snowed all day today here. Sigh.
• Gayle --  where in the Mojave?
• Robert --  I know after the sentence in Incident at Clermont that a last read could turn up a change that left a fossil change problem.
• Gayle --  my first ex grew up in 29 palms
• @zette --  Used to spend time east of LA -- Barstow, Bakersfield, heading toward Vegas.  I know 29 Palms.
• Robert --  I'll never forget when Georgia proofread Raven Dance and asked "Who's Rick" and I'd changed hundreds of instances of his name to James but left one in.
• Peggy --  My big problem is that first (zero) draft came in at 45k.  In revision, I've noticed that two characters need to be cut--which will take the zero draft to about 35k.  Gotta triple my word count.  SCREAMS IN HORROR --
• Robert --  Add subplots and new characters?
• Nonny --  Is it possible to combine it with a sequel, Peggy?
• Peggy --  Robert--looking for subplots as we speak. grins while checking under the bed for a stray subplot --
• Gayle --  you can do it Peggy.
• Peggy --  Nonny--I've been thinking about a sequel... hm....
• Steven --  this window is flickering for me. Lemme leave and come back...
• @zette --  You have some options, Peggy. The big one is adding subplots, of course.  And yes, combining into a larger story if you have a sequel in mind can work very well.
• @zette --  I've done that with a couple novels.
• BarGnat Mary --  LOL, Nonny: I went at it backwards... my novels is now split into two novels and I'm having to do major fleshing out on both.
• Steven --  okay. back.
• BarGnat Mary --  wb, Steven
• Peggy --  wb, Steven.
• Steven --  better.
• Nonny --  Hehe, Mary, I wish I had that problem ...\
• @zette --  I've gone both ways.
• Peggy --  I'll have to play with it some more.  Luckily, I have almost all day Thursday to do nothing but rewrites while looking after a girlfriend after she has day surgery.
• Robert --  I also reached a point with a suggestion Kay made that would have worked equally well but changed its genre.
• Peggy --  With luck, I can find a few subplots and maybe figure out how to add in the sequel.
• BarGnat Mary --  Kay makes GREAT suggestions, Robert!
• Robert --  I sort of flagged it for thought, Zette. If I publish a nice little short story one market, let it sit, then go back and double the length and send it to the related market, is that valid?
• Robert --  Vampire story to Vampire Romance - it would take much more h/h stuff in the Romance version but there's a Romance backstory.
• @zette --  Here's an idea, Peggy -- write out a couple lines for each chapter on note cards. Then look where you can insert new chapters or expand what's going on, and add those in to the pile.
• Robert --  Kay does, BG - she improved it enormously.
• Gayle --  I have discovered in the novel I'm editing/rewriting that I have several sub-plot holes that will need fixing...but at least I've gotten back on track a little bit...
• Peggy --  zette--great idea!
• Peggy --  Thanks!
• @zette --  I've been doing something like that with the novel I'm working on right now, only I did a card for each page of the novel.  It is an old copy, small print, single spaced and only 85 pages long.
• Nonny --  .
• @zette --  In the new version I'm on page 12 of the original and page 73 of the new version.  As you can guess, almost all of it is new.
• Robert --  I know the extreme version - expand the short story into a novel and use the short story as one turning point in a novel sized novel, is very legitimate.
• Nonny --  Did I get kicked off?
• Julia --  that's a big change. ::impressed::
• @zette --  I can see you, Nonny!
• Peggy --  Hm.  That may be a big help, zette.  No, Nonny, you're still here.
• @zette --  It is a help.  I'm really amazed at it.
• @zette --  Oh, by the way... read this issue of Vision.  There are a lot of good ideas there on rewriting and critiquing.
• Julia --  I
• Emily --  What's a big help? got kicked --
• Peggy --  I've read part of it, zette, just not the whole thing.
• Julia --  I
• Robert --  Or should I carefully peel the love story off and do that as a separate short story that refers to or synopsizes this one?
• Julia --  I can't type, obviously
• Nonny --  I got kicked.
• BarGnat Mary --  I can't use the note cards, but couldn't I print out the same info on separate pages and shuffle them?
• Nonny --  Nothing was loading.
• @zette --  We could still see you posting, Nonny.
• Peggy --  Don't see why not, Mary.
• Julia --  I have bookmarked Vision to read ASAP
• BarGnat Mary --  This issue is just loaded with good stuff!
• @zette --  Sure.  IT's just easy to use the cards.  I have a special notebook for them, and hole punch the top.  One section for characters, the rest for story.
• @zette --  Works very nicely.
• BarGnat Mary --  Can't see to write on them, much less read them
• BarGnat Mary --  But I can print out the same info in large font and that should work
• @zette --  No reason why print outs won't work.
• @zette --  I like the cards because I don't have to do the work at the computer.  That helps sometimes.
• BarGnat Mary --  I never would have even tried to write if Rex hadn't built me a computer last summer
• Steven --  Just wondering - what was the one critique that toughened your skin to all others?
• Gayle --  I've done what Holly suggested and printed out the whole novel and use colored pens and post it notes for this rewrite
• @zette --  I never had ONE.  I just gradually got used to them.
• Steven --  For me, it was when I was a senior in high school and I wrote this story for a creative writing class and my sister was home from college and by the time she got through with it, there was red ink all over it.
• BarGnat Mary --  lol
• Robert --  For me it was from Critters and it was about this story, Incident at Clermont. The reader loved it.
• Nonny --  When I joined Critters, I resolved that I'd lock my ego in a closet and never let it out.
• Julia2 --  Steven: a series of harsh ones from a writer's group in high school. And my mom's ruthless edit of a paper in 9th grade.
• @zette --  Hey, I've had Holly do critiques for my material.  It never bothered me if she found a lot of problems.  I've always asked for critiques to learn.
• BarGnat Mary --  For me, it was when Silverdrake did a number on the second story I ever tried to write. LOL
• Nonny --  Crits don't seem to have bothered me.
• Nonny --  I'd _love_ to get one of Holly's crits.
• Robert --  And then pointed out something so dumb I laughed out loud. I hadn't described the vampire. The critter said "You could say raven haired or ivory skinned or something like that."
• Peggy --  Zette--I always thought the point of a crit was to learn.
• @zette --  For some people the point is to be told that they write well.
• @zette --  Oh, and let's cover that real fast!
• Robert --  It wasn't a critique that was wrong. It was a critique that was right, but suggested a fix not as good as I could do it.
• Peggy --  Oh.  Well, I knew *that*..... grin --
• Nonny --  That's part of what I want to join BN -- I want to know what I'm doing right, what I'm doing wrong, what I could do better. And if my stuff is publishable or not.
• Steven --  After that, (and it did help the story a lot) critiques just never bothered me that much.
• Robert --  I am still working on an article about how to ask for support and how to ask for critique. I think support is important. I think it's okay to need it. I think that's not the same thing.
• Peggy --  Good distinction, Robert.
• @zette --  You do a critique for someone, and the next time they post something, they are making EXACTLY the same mistakes.  That means they are either not reading critiques that tell them they have a problem, or they just don't care.
• Nonny --  Zette --  Want a great example of that?
• Gayle --  I've learned a lot from Holly, Sheila and you, zette...and have seen my writing improve since I've been here
• Robert --  Or they have a bad habit that takes some work to break, Zette. There's that too.
• BarGnat Mary --  Amen to that, Gayle
• Nonny --  When I was in Critters, I wrote a 3k critique for a guy. Never heard back from him.
• @zette --  In critters I knew at least one person who said she just couldn't stand to look at the critiques because they bothered her so much, but here's my new story.
• Nonny --  About eight weeks later, he reposted the story.
• Nonny --  I was really excited to see what he'd done with it, but he'd changed absolutely NOTHING. It was the exact same story.
• @zette --  None of us have time for that kind of time wasting, Nonny.
• Robert --  No, this is a fast paced critique group and a fast growth writer's group.
• Nonny --  That's what I've found, Robert.
• Nonny --  And it's a community, not just a crit group.
• Gayle --  Yep
• @zette --  We've had a little of that here at Forward Motion, but I think the fact that the material (both story and critiques) is posted for others to see makes a difference.
• Steven --  yep. other readers can see if someone's blatantly ignored a crit.
• Robert --  Right. In fact in chat it's okay to ask for support and whine "I hate my story!" and everyone there will go "First drafts are crud, relax, enjoy it"
• Peggy --  I think so, zette.
• Nonny --  Exactly, Robert!
• Peggy --  Robert--we did just that earlier for Orion.
• @zette --  There's a big difference between a bad habbit and blind spot, and not ever changing ANYTHING they do wrong, Robert.  That means bad spelling, bad grammar, bad punctuation, etc.
• Robert --  Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that!
• cherylp --  Yeah.  I've got a really bad habit -- ly words.
• Peggy --  .
• Nonny --  Cheryl --  Yeah, I had that problem, too.
• Peggy --  Cheryl--try doing a search for *ly
• Robert --  I know that punctuation is a blind spot of mine. I can use Word to filter it to some extent, but my punctuation is like some people's spelling who will put bare for bear the fifteenth time. When people help with it I am so grateful.
• @zette --  There's another type of writer you need to think about who will waste your time. The one who wants critiques, appears to be serious about them, goes at the work... and then suddenly announces that they've tossed the stories out because they are no longer what he likes to write.
• Nonny --  It took me forever to cut them out.
• Catherine/splodge --  I've given someone a suggestion, they've taken it, and made the story worse.  sigh --
• Nonny --  Oh, Robert, the line/punctuation edits helped, then?
• @zette --  And then starts over again, in the exact pattern.
• cherylp --  Yeah, Catherine, but that's not your fault.
• Peggy --  Zette--So far, I haven't seen anyone at FM do that.  (Then again, I haven't critted a lot...)
• @zette --  That can happen, Catherine.  That's not your problem.
• Robert --  Immensely, Nonny. Most of those as soon as you pointed it out, it was "Whew! An editor didn't see that!"
• @zette --  There were a couple people early on who did it, but I think people just stopped falling into it, so they left.
• Peggy --  I would think that would happen--this group is pretty sharp.
• Robert --  I've let some critiques stew for a very long time to understand them and to want to work on that story again, but I've got a huge backlog of stories to ship out and which one I rewrite is on mood.
• Robert --  If I don't use it right away, doesn't mean it's wasted - means that I'm warming up to fix it and might not yet know how.
• @zette --  Yup.  What most new writers here don't often consider is that people who take time to critique and help are taking time from their own work.
• cherylp --  Yeah, I'm sitting on a bunch of critiques right now.  Put work on the back burner, but never tossed out.
• Robert --  I just wanted that up for the record that even if I'm slow and chicken about sending things out, if I put it for crit I mean to send it out when I get it right.
• Peggy --  I need to log and make dinner.  (Hubby just got home.)  Thanks again for a great class, zette.  See you on the boards!
• Nonny --  Bye Peggy
• BarGnat Mary --  bye, Peggy
• @zette --  I understand Cheryl.  It isn't the 'sitting on them' that bothers me.  It's the ones that just waste your time. Toss the story out.  Now lets do a new one.
• Julia --  bye, Peggy
• @zette --  Bye Peggy!
• Robert --  See you later, Peggy!
• Gayle --  night Peggy
• Catherine/splodge --  Bye Peggy
• Nonny --  I've trunked stories, but not after crits.
• @zette --  It's just an attitude problem, really.  But like I said, they usually don't do that often.
• @zette --  Trunked is entirely different, Nonny. Some stories just will not work, but you are giving them a try. We all write stories that won't sell.
• Nonny --  I have stories so bad I never want them to see the light of day again, but I never bothered sending those for crit because I *knew* they were that bad!
• Robert --  I've almost got an opposite view of my trunk - that everything in it is potentially very cool at least as a subplot in a novel, but it's still raw or rough.
• cherylp --  Well, if it serves as an example, I just sent my short story on the boards to the ConQuesT writer's seminar.
• Nonny --  Actually, Robert, the stories in question would make a good novel if I wanted to take the time to redo them.
• @zette --  That's great, Cheryl!
• Gayle --  but even if THAT story is bad...there is something you can find useful in it for another story down the line.
• Nonny --  But that would be trashing the story completely and rewriting it without even the old version.
• Robert --  Yep, that's the sort of thing I was talking about. For a long time I did novel excerpts and called a chapter a story because it was the right length.
• BarGnat Mary --  Way to go, Cheryl!
• Julia --  yay, Cheryl!
• Nonny --  Huzzah for Cheryl!
• Gayle --  great Cheryl!!!!
• Catherine/splodge --  Yay Cheryl!
• Robert --  Go Cheryl!
• @zette --  I'm really not talking about trunking stories, or deciding they don't work, or anything like that.  I'm talking about wasting other people's time because that person was never serious about the stories to begin with.
• Robert --  Right.
• Nonny --  Okay, I gotcha, Zette.
• Nonny -- 
• @zette --  Part of it as the sort of 'artist angst' I see sometimes -- I can't be good unless I burn my work.
• Nonny --  I might burn the characters, but not the work ...
• @zette --  Another is just wanting the attention of the group, but not really understanding what they're doing.
• Robert --  That gives the image of this great tragic opener with the MC's at the stake
• Gayle --  I won't even burn the characters...I'll let them stew for a little bit and comeout in a different way.
• Nonny --  I started writing with the idea that "artist's angst" was complete bullxit.
• BarGnat Mary --  hehe
• Julia --  I consider it more angst-therapy for me to ruthlessly *rework* instead of throw out. But that's just me
• Nonny --  LOL Robert, I have one that starts out that way ...
• @zette --  Good point, Julia!
• @zette --  Well, peoples, I hope this was all helpful!
• Gayle --  I refuse to remain a "starving artist" for very long...right now it's longer than I want, but I refuse to permanently move in here!!!
• cherylp --  You betcher!
• Nonny --  It was, Zette!
• Julia --  it was immensely helpful. Many thanks!
• Robert --  Very, Zette! As usual you've raised my confidence immensely. I'm fighting the willies - and know they're just a fear, just a phobia that will go away when desensitized
• Gayle --  Yes, zette very helpful...especially with the current rewrite.
• @zette --  My husband is off teaching a marketing class tonight.  I'm here talking about editing. We live in a strange world...
• Julia --  lol
• Catherine/splodge --  The whole class has been great, Zette
• Nonny --  It's been wonderful, Zette.
• Robert --  It has. It's great
• @zette --  Glad you guys liked it. We'll get together now and then and talk about problems.  Email me with any questions you think might make a good subject.
• BarGnat Mary --  Thanks, zette.
• @zette --  I just can't come up with enough material for continual classes on this subject. And besides, the problems I have with rewrites are not going to be the same as yours.  Not all of them, anyway.
• Robert --  Your method and Holly's seem very different but both demonstrably work!
• Catherine/splodge --  Could we do a sort of "rewriter's think tank"?
• BarGnat Mary --  Most of the points you've raised have been applicable to my problems, Zette
• Robert --  That would be neat, Catherine
• @zette --  I was thinking something like that every couple weeks, Catherine.
• cherylp --  Here's one unless you've done it recently:   When is a book salvageable vs. when you *should* radically rewrite?
• Gayle --  cool...that sounds great.
• cherylp --  Or is that too unspecific?
• Robert --  It seems specific to me. Holly did a triage article on technical ways to judge it.
• @zette --  No, I think that might be good to cover later, Cheryl.
• Gayle --  I'm sorry...I need to go eat dinner, I no longer allow food in the office.
• Gayle --  night all
• @zette --  It's really what I'm doing with the eight book set from hell.
• Julia --  bye, Gayle!
• BarGnat Mary --  night, Gayle
• cherylp --  Night, Gayle.
• Robert --  Night, Gayle
• @zette --  Bye!
• Catherine/splodge --  Bye Gayle
• Nonny --  A Rewriter's Think Tank would be awesome!
• Nonny --  .
• @zette --  Yes, I think discussing specific spots where people are having trouble, etc. might help. We'll start doing them in a couple weeks.
• BarGnat Mary --  That's wonderful, Zette!
• Nonny --  The regular Think Tank is every week; could this be a bi-weekly event?
• Nonny --  Or could we take the floor every week?
• @zette --  At least bi-weekly, if not just once a month.
• BarGnat Mary --  Yeah, Zette... don't let us nag you into giving up too much of your own writing time!
• @zette --  Once I get past the Culture class (which takes a LOT of work) it might be better.
• Catherine/splodge --  or Zette could designate a sub-moderator...
• cherylp --  Yeah, the old phrase, "Buzz off!" still works!  grin --
• BarGnat Mary --  lol
• Julia --  ::snicker @ Cheryl::
• Catherine/splodge --  yeah, that too, Cheryl g --
• @zette --  I'd like to be in on it, so we'll see how it goes.
• BarGnat Mary --  I have a gnatly tendency to gnag a lot, so just ignore me when I get too overbearing
• Nonny --  LOL Mary
• BarGnat Mary --  strewth, Nonny
• BarGnat Mary --  Ask Steven!
• cherylp --  giggle --  @ Mary
• Steven --  oh, surely not.
• BarGnat Mary --  hehehe
• Catherine/splodge --  wow, my neighbors are apparently attempting to kill each other
• Steven --  how fun.
• BarGnat Mary --  is that a good thing or a bad thing, Catherine? EG --
• Nonny --  Catherine --  Story fodder!
• Julia --  I have to get going. Good night and happy (re)writing!
• Robert --  Won't they be surprised when they wind up in a book?
• @zette --  We had the police next door yesterday.  Must be spring...
• Steven --  now call the cops on them and do research for a mystery.
• Catherine/splodge --  eerrrm - when they're trying to kill each other this loudly, its bad for me
• cherylp --  Yee haw, Catherine, take notes.  You can use 'em in a story.
• BarGnat Mary --  'night, Julia
• Nonny --  Night Julia
• Catherine/splodge --  Night Julia!
• @zette --  Night Julia!
• Nonny --  I'm going to get going myself.
• Julia --  ::waves and ducks out the door::
• Nonny --  Bye all!
• BarGnat Mary --  As am I
• cherylp --  Night, Julia, Nonny.
• Steven --  Okay, this last part says we're writers like nothing else. the predominant response was to take notes and use them in a story...
• Catherine/splodge --  Bye Nonny!
• BarGnat Mary --  good night all
• Nonny --  ROTFL Steven -- too true!
• Robert --  Night, Nonny
• cherylp --  Night,Mary.
• @zette --  Night both of you!  Talk to you in chat... later!
• Catherine/splodge --  Shall we toddle back to chat?
• Robert --  Good idea
• Robert --  G'night all
• Catherine/splodge --  night
• cherylp --  Catch you guys in chat later.  Need to eat something.
• Steven --  yeah. a chatting we shall go.
• @zette --  Good plan.  I have to make dinner yet.  Should start that before Russ gets home!