Writer's Think Tank #15 -- 05/10/02

<Linnet> Lot of folks didn't like him, either
<Robert> Oh boy. Yeah. lol WHAT?????
<Jehane> minimum of jarjar? ok, i'll go see it then
<Becca> Jar Jar?
<Fredrick> He should be a corpse. I hate Jar-jar.
<@SLViehl> Evening, everyone
<Peg> Welcome, Teacher!
<Nathan> He's actually the one who starts the clone war...in a manner of speaking
<Fredrick> Ebert actually thought he was a unique character.
<@Jim> Becca: JarJar Binx, the animated character.
<Becca> Entertainment Weekly suggested that the opening of the 2nd Star Wars movie should be jumping off of a cliff and dying.
<kaelle> Hey Sheila. Glad you could make it (g)
<BarGnat_> Hi, Sheila
<Linnet> Hiya Teach!
<Robert> JarJar the racial stereotype of "these people are so oppressed they hate themselves" got ELECTED to something???
<Kay> Hi Sheila!
<Jehane> hi sheila!
<Nathan> HI Sheila!!
<Becca> Hi Sheila!
<@Jim> Hi Sheila!
<Fredrick> Which makes me question Ebert's judgment.
<Robert> Hi Sheila, loved Star Lines but you know that.
<Peg> LOL Becca.
<Anne_Marble> HELLKO
<Anne_Marble> Whoops
<Kay> Dont list me, please Sheila -- No question tonight.
<@SLViehl> No problem, Kay
<Jehane> no question tonight sheila
<@Jim> Robert: Yeah, apparently even his own people wanted to get rid of him -- in both movies.
<Linnet> Same here, Sheila... no question either
<kaelle> Pass, for me too, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Thank you Robert
<Fredrick> Hopefully if they make Stardoc into a film, they won't do CGI all the way.
<Peg> No question for me, Sheila.
<Kay> I love watching your fish tank draw! IT's so much fun!!
<@SLViehl> gotcha, Linnet and Kae
<@SLViehl> And peg
<Robert> I'm looking forward to that picture of the white quilt.
<Anne_Marble> I finally got a chance to really get into reading "Vincalis." During lunch. It was hard to get back to those nucleic acid residues afterwards!
<Fredrick> I like older models.
<Becca> Sheila, can I go third or something? I'm feeling shy. (don't want to sacrifice my spot completely, but I'd rather not go first)
<@Jim> Sheila: No questions for me, either.
<@SLViehl> Sure, Becca, I'll switch you around. Hi Jim
<Anne_Marble> Can I go ner the end? I don't know what I wanna say yet.
<Robert> I'm with anne way toward the end don't have a good general topic and don't have a wip.
<Becca> Sheila, I love the fish graphic.
<Steven> no question for me since I don't know how long I'll be able to stay.
<@Jim> ::falls off chair:: Anne??? At a loss for words??
<Robert> We're all shuffling around in line trying to have last place. Innit silly?
<kaelle> lol Jim
<Anne_Marble> Tee ee
<Kay> That's gotta be a catfish down on the bottom thinking "Change the plot twist!"
<Peg> Robert--no WIP? Are you okay?
<Fredrick> Like we're getting lined up to the gulliontine.
<Linnet> lol
<@SLViehl> Okay Stephen. Last call for beverages/bathroom breaks/etc., folks -- go now
<Robert> No, I'm not okay. I'm still having a back crisis and coming down with something and have a novel rewrite coming up.
<Catherine/splodge> BAK - hi sheila!
<BarGnat_> Just toss me in anywhere, Sheila. My question is kinda sappy, but I have it ready.
<Fredrick> I can never spell that word.
<@SLViehl> Hiya Catherine
<Peg> No, the bottom fish is a "vacuum cleaner fish". I'm sure it has a real name--bottom feeder?
<Linnet> Any last calls for the lemonade? Going once....
<Gerri> *realizes that she sorta does have a question...*
<Fredrick> Guillontine. French should just call it big shapr blade.
<Jehane> robert: how did your meeting go?
<Nathan> We got parakeets the other day
<Peg> <comforts Robert> Hugs.
<Fredrick> Nope, still waiting.
<@Jim> Fredrick? what word?
<Anne_Marble> Ooooooh. Tonight's Law & Order: criminal Intent looks really good.
<Fredrick> Guillontine
<Kay> Peg, that's why I think it's a catfish. It's what they do.
<Robert> It didn't happen. They just didn't show up to take me to it so it didn't happen.
<Robert> MOre of this "Hurry Up and Wait" stuff.
<Nathan> frederick: there's actually another name for it
<Fredrick> Some words just don't promote good spelling.
<BarGnat_> ewww, Robert
<@Jim> try dictionary.com
<Jehane> no explanation? how rude
<Kay> WHAT??????!!!!??? THEY JUST DID'NT SHOW UP/???????
<Peg> I'm thinking of one that opens its mouth wide and skitters along the tank wall... blowfish?
<Gerri> www.wordsmyth.net
<@Jim> Nathan: headchopper, right?
<Robert> I don't know where I stand, I don't know where I'll live, I don't know what's going on and they jsut didn't show up.
<Peg> Guillotine.
<Robert> No email with which day yesterday or today it would be, no-show.
<Nathan> Loyalty Enforcement Facilitator
<Linnet> suckerfish, Peggy
<Peg> ROFL Nathan.
<Nathan> Gerri: whats the link
<Peg> Thanks, Linnet.
<Kay> GUILLOTINE SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT -- PITY IT'S ILLEGAL
<Fredrick> Thanks, Sheila
<BarGnat_> LOL>Kay
<@Jim> No need to shout, Kay.
<Nathan> I read it in new york times bestselling left behind series
<Peg> Hi, MBW!
<magicalbookworm> hello
<Gerri> someone said something about dictionaries....that's a really good one.
<Kay> Only about things that deserve shouting Jim
<Linnet> I think she forgot she was in caps...
<Anne_Marble> Uhm, Sheila, never mind, i have a question.
<Nathan> Hi james, MBW
<James> The trick with guillotines is to stage a revolution first, then make them legal. Indeed, compulsory.
<BarGnat_> Hi, Magic
<kaelle> Hi Magic
<Peg> And James.
<Jehane> hello james, magic
<kaelle> Hi James
<Anne_Marble> Howdy magic and James
<Peg> Worked for the French, eh, James? <grin>
<@Jim> Hi Cindy! :}
<James> Hi all
<Nathan> Does anybody like the movie gladiator...I'm finding out a lot about, and I like to show off my knowledge
<Linnet> (Grover Monster style: Helloooo everybodeeeeee!!
<@SLViehl> I'm putting up the rules for those who are just joining us for the first time
<Robert> Haven't seen it
<Peg> Nathan--loved Gladiator, also a semi-Roman History buff. Show away....
<James> Exactly, Peg -- so we should be able to pull it off
<Fredrick> Great French inventions: cuisine and capital punishment
<James> Or chop it off, rather.
<Peg> LOl James.
<kaelle> lol James
<Nathan> Okay...um, let me see if I can remember any of it....
<@Jim> Nathan: just borrowed the DVD from my sister-in-law... haven't watched it yet.
<@SLViehl> I feel like someone should put on party music and break out the cookies
<Linnet> hehe
<@SLViehl> lol
<Becca> I want cookies...
<Anne_Marble> Dad actually bought a copy of Gladiator.
<Peg> Sheila--go ahead and put on the music. We don't mind.
<Jehane> my party music's on - moulin rouge!
<Robert> I'm weird. I can't think of any cuisine that I like all the food in it. I'm just weird. Cookies sound good.
<Fredrick> Actually the guillotine was supposed to be used for medical purposes, IIRCT
<@Jim> They've already been passing around lemonade, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> I'm having a Lunchables. Isn't that sad?
<Nathan> Okay...let me get my lifehouse cassette, Sheila
<Kay> I liked the party graphic on before the tank. That purple dress looks right to me!
<Linnet> lol Jehane! "The Holls are Alive!"
<Becca> My dad is making ribs...
<@SLViehl> (hands on hips) What's in the lemonade????
<Linnet> Hills, even
<Fredrick> Acid?
<Kay> Bourbon.
<Robert> Whiskey, it's also a cold remedy
<kaelle> whiskey
<Linnet> Nothin', I swear! Hot water
<Peg> Sheila--the follow up question is, and how much?
<James> Decapitation is the ultimate cure-all. Except possibly headaches.
<Jehane> hey, i can put that cd on next, if you like
<Gerri> digs out her techno...
<@SLViehl> lol Peg
<Becca> I need a cold remedy...
<Peg> Followed by, and pass some over here....
<Robert> Lots in mine, make it a double
<Anne_Marble> All those fish from that acquarium
<Peg> LOL Anne
<@SLViehl> Oh, Lord, Anne....
<Anne_Marble> <Anne tries to erase spello>
<Fredrick> Too bad HMO doesn't cover it, James
<Linnet> ewww
<Nathan> It's actually mostly just links...I can't really be specific about any of it....
<James> Ah, but we'll get the HMOs in the revolution! First up against the wall...
<Nathan> Theres a possibility for either a prequel or a sequel, within the next ten years or so....um,....
<Gerri> anyone ever play that card game guillotine?
<Linnet> Never heard of it
<Anne_Marble> I bought a copy of Foreign Policy magazine today because I saw a potential fantasy novel plot.
<Nathan> Nope...niver heared of it
<Robert> that's neat, Anne
<Gerri> it's hilarious.
<Jehane> no question for me sheila
<Fredrick> I look at J.K. Rowling and Lucas and all the other people under pressure for sequels/prequels and I want to run the other way.
<Nathan> Is it a CCG, TCG, or just a regualr card game?
<Peg> Ten years? Lord, that's worse than Lucas making us wait three years between each of the first triology.....
<Gerri> it's a regular card game, sort of.
<Nathan> lol
<Anne_Marble> There was a story about how a lot of people (including poor people in the Third World) have been disenfranchised and worse because of misplaced enviromental concerns.
<Becca> I'm surprised J.K. Rowling hasn't gotten backlashed yet.
<Catherine/splodge> <rushes round the house tidying up>
<Gerri> you have 3 days to collect as many heads as you can.
<Becca> Considering all of the HP hype.
<Nathan> It's not definite yet though
<Peg> Anne--wouldn't surprise me.
<@SLViehl> Have I missed anyone who wanted to put a question out to the group tonight?
<Fredrick> Hype is like mayo. Put too much on and it'll spoil any sandwich.
<Peg> LOL Gerri--could make a scavenger hunt out of it....
<Linnet> Ten years on what, Peg?
<Peg> Three years between episode one, two, three...
<Gerri> it's sorta like that....
<BarGnat_> I have one, Sheila.... sort of
<@SLViehl> You're #2, Mary
<BarGnat_> ah. okay
<Peg> Sheila has a question????
<Linnet> As long as they don't do a Jean Auel and spend two or three decades on it...
<Peg> <picks self up from floor>
<Robert> That's neat, hers are usually good ones.
<Kay> this isn't the FIRST time, and she's entitled
<@SLViehl> Sheila definitely has a question
<Nathan> lol
<Catherine/splodge> AAaaaarrgghhh! how'd I get to be number one?
<kaelle> Peg, she asks us every now and then
<Gerri> lol
<Nathan> lol splodge
<Anne_Marble> The magazine compared it to what happened to about 2,000 Anglo-Saxons who were displaced because King (uhm) Thingie wanted to set aside a hunting preserve in 1066.
<Robert> Because you used to be number six.
<Jehane> just lucky, catherine
<@SLViehl> We just stuck you up there when you weren't looking, Catherine
<Peg> Coolness.... hope we can help. (I just haven't seen her ask one before; she usually deletes it from the transcripts)
<Linnet> Because you didn't request a specific spto, Splodge!! lol
<Kay> Well, Catherine, I think it's because you're prepared and organized and all that.
<Becca> Sheila, what is your WIP?
<kaelle> LOL, King (uhm) Thingie. lol
<Peg> Becca--wrong question. It's WHICH wip?
<Gerri> William the conqueror.
<Becca> LOL
<@SLViehl> My current WIPS is the third romance in a trilogy, a fantasy, and a new SF series
<Anne_Marble> Dat's the guy!
<Gerri> grin
<Robert> This is not hte same as Moderator Thingie or Miss Thingie who writes Gorok
<@SLViehl> All right folks, let's get started -- Welcome to the Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<Robert> You doing fantasy I'd love to see! Purr!
<Peg> Robert--patience.... <grin>
<@SLViehl> Just one reminder, remember to keep your questions and answers G to PG-13 rated, as we often have (and do) minors joining us.
<@SLViehl> Catherine, you're up, BarGnat, you'll be after Catherine.
<Catherine/splodge> Well, I'm going to start the evening off by resoundingly NOT having a question!
<Linnet> ROFL
<Gerri> lol
<Fredrick> That's innovative
<Peg> Sheila--we do minors????
<@SLViehl> Okay, no problem, Catherine. If you think of one later, let me know.
<BarGnat_> eek
<Becca> Agreed, Mary.
<Linnet> Ohhh Maaarryyyyyyy....
<BarGnat_> okay, here it comes
<BarGnat_> The large majority of scenes in my book have the MC as the POV character. However, now that I've added several sneaky plot twists, more characters require a POV than before. QUESTION: How many POV characters are too many?
<@SLViehl> What that means, Peg, is we have persons under the age of 18 with us, so we need to keep our discussions appropriate.
<Becca> Meep...am I that obvious?
<@SLViehl> Good question, Mary
<Gerri> when you have POV characters wh don't add anything to the story.
<Catherine/splodge> errrmmm - 200?
<Nathan> {Proudly shows himself as example of a minor}
<@Jim> Mary: general opinion is that more than three or four is too many.
<Fredrick> I'd say more than five.
<@SLViehl> James and I were just discussing this -- are you writing in third person?
<Fredrick> Three is the right number IMHO.
<Becca> Did you ever read the Renshai spinoff series? That has a lot of POV characters and still works.
<Peg> (Just thought that it was a strange choice of phrasing. "do" in that context sometimes has...naughty...overtones.)
<Fredrick> Didn't John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar have many POVs?
<Catherine/splodge> I have about six. Doesn't seem to many to me.
<Linnet> I agree... more than four would be confusing.
<@SLViehl> Oh, I see. I meant "do" as in "do have with us tonight"
<Gerri> I just got through w/ a book that had 10 or so...
<James> I suspect the answer is: as many as the story needs and thewriter can credibly handle. Which isn't helpful, of course.
<BarGnat_> Some only have the POV in a single chapter where they are featured. For example, a spy for the villain has the POV in two scenes (maybe three...who can remember?) in one chapter. It is vital that she have the POV while concocting and executing a scheme that will eventually backfire on her.
<Peg> Mary--how many are ESSENTIAL to telling your story, and how many are just nice to have?
<Catherine/splodge> It's a matter of allowing the reader to keep up with the story
<Linnet> Well, if you have a bad guy and a party of several people, if they get separated, how easy would it be to keep track?
<Robert> I think it's "as many as needed and the right ones for the scenes"
<@SLViehl> Remember that the more POVs you have, the more head hopping the reader does, and the less intimacy they establish with your characters.
<Fredrick> If you have too many POVs, it becomes like the Marx Brother's A Night at the Opera.
<Becca> You might want to look at exactly what each POV is contributing, and if maybe those scenes can be told from someone else's POV
<Anne_Marble> Sometimes it dpeends on degree. Some characters won't need a lot of POV space, so they would get fewer scenes. But sometimes, giving POV to overly minor characters hurts the story.
<Gerri> however, they all provide a point of view necessary for the story to take place...providing a rounder picture.
<Peg> Right, Robert--I was just trying to give her a guideline.
<Kay> I just read the prologue and first few chaps of D Weber's new Honor Harrington. He has 3 POVs in the prologue before he gets to the MC in chapter one. That was more than I was comfortable with, and if it hadn't been a series I was following, or if it hadn't become so well established, that would have been too many too fast.
<BarGnat_> Actually, I consider them all essential... and their scenes are needed to move the story forward
<@SLViehl> Balance is important, Gerri, you're right
<Anne_Marble> I've read stories where I end up thinking "I don't care what the porter thinks of her dress!" :->
<Catherine/splodge> But you can handle sympathy by the proportion of scenes you give to different characters
<James> I'd also look at giving the villain's spy the viewpoint in other scenes if it's remotely feasible, so that she doesn't feel like a throwaway viewpoint.
<Peg> How many are you looking at now, Mary?
<Anne_Marble> Kay> Is that the Weber that got the bad review on the CNN web site?
<Kay> How many do you think you might need?
<Gerri> and I did spend over half the book in the MC's POV
<Robert> A corollary might be that the more POV's are necessary the more skill is needed to smooth it
<Fredrick> As long as the POV contributes to the plot, characterization of the story, then you should leave it.
<Linnet> Yeah, that's him, Anne...
<Kay> Shouldn't be, it isn't out yet. I got it off Baen's Bar's sneak peeks
<@SLViehl> No matter how many POVs you choose, you need to be consistent with them throughout the book.
<Nathan> However many are relevent to your plot...one suggestion though....try not to give them all names that sound alike or start with the same letter...it gets really confusing...I'm reading a book called *The Great Devide*, and the writer deals with about 8 or nine "good guy" characters, and about 5 "bad Guy" characters, a lot of them all have name the start with letters that are the same, or their na
<Becca> So is it bad, Sheila, to have a POV that's used only once?
<@SLViehl> Good point, Robert
<BarGnat_> You're talking about DW's infodump marvel?
<Robert> There was something I read that had a dead character and about 20 different characters' views of the dead character and it really worked.
<Linnet> Kay, CNN slammed Excalibur Alternative.
<Fredrick> Terry Prachett uses a lot of POVs. And I've noticed that fantasy usually uses more POVs than SF. Not always, but often enough.
<Peg> Mary--how many POVs do you have now?
<Kay> BG, probably.
<James> If you're in first draft, it might be useful to just use a new viewpoint whenever you feel you need one, regardless of the number, then see how many viewpoints you can cut in second draft when you can see what the novel needs.
<@SLViehl> In a novel, Becca, I think it jars a bit to have only one scene with one POV and never see it again.
<Robert> The dead character was the focus of all the one off POV scenes.
<Anne_Marble> I've heard about a book that gave a POV scene to a horse!
<Kay> At a guess, Mary, I'
<BarGnat_> I'd have to count
<Fredrick> Good idea, James. I like that.
<Gerri> it depends on where it's at, though....
<Peg> More than ten? Less than ten?
<Robert> So there was something underlying it that connected all the litlte one offs. Common theme.
<Kay> I'd say that more than three is hard.
<BarGnat_> Less than, probably
<Peg> Hard, yes, Kay, but not impossible.
<Gerri> if it's a continuing character, then a simple slip into that POV, and then out as a minor player...it works.
<Robert> And they contradicted each other and had very different views.
<BarGnat_> less than ten, I mean
<Peg> <shrug> then run with it.....
<@SLViehl> I'm like Fredrick -- I like three, unless I need a balance adjustment, then I'll go to four.
<Peg> At least in first draft do what you need to do.
<Becca> Even the Secret Texts had a lot though, and Holly managed to pull it off.
<Nathan> I think, don't totally remember, but I think I've seen books that give POV to a cat
<Kay> See how it goes, Mary.
<BarGnat_> Sigh. That's what I'm doing, Kay
<Linnet> Hang in theah, hon..
<BarGnat_> Just didn't want to break any major writing rules, what with being a newbie
<Gerri> also, you can try switching between first and third person...first person for your MC, third for everyone else.
<Anne_Marble> Well a cat is another thing altogether! After all, Ari asks questions in this chat sometimes.
<Becca> Is that too awkward, Gerri? I've considered using it.
<Gerri> just don't do everyone's pov in first person...it's a pain in the tush to keep them all straight.
<@SLViehl> Are there major writing rules about POV? Anyone heard of some?
<Fredrick> In one book, I used three and a half. The half was the villian
<Nathan> Nope...none that I can think of...
<Gerri> it usually works fairly well, mary.
<Peg> Don't think so, Sheila.
<James> There are no rules, only guidelines, and every one comes down to what works for you and what you can make work, if I can mount a favourite hobbyhorse.
<Anne_Marble> Don't headhop. :->
<Robert> That worked in Dracula though Gerri - it was all letters and the POV's were extremely different but coherence was maintained.
<BarGnat_> Nobody's POV is first person. The whole book is third limited
<Jehane> only the headhopping rule, sheila
<Fredrick> Philip K. Dick headhopped a lot.
<@SLViehl> Ulp, James is getting on his hobbyhorse again . . . (g)
<Kay> I've heard Allikat talk about head hopping, and Anne, too, but Idon't know of any others and don't understand the headhopping one yet.
<Peg> Mary--then go with it. Let the story tell itself how it needs to.
<Linnet> Stay firmly perched on your person's shoulder, not up above their head in the air.
<Gerri> and Elizabeth Hayden does, too.
<Anne_Marble> Read what other people have done. Sean Russell is really good for multiple POVs.
<Becca> I love/hate Elizabeth Haydon's books...
<Kay> Sometimes you don
<@SLViehl> Good example, Anne. Who else does multiple POVs well? Holly, for one
<Jehane> guy gavriel kay
<Robert> Linnet - you just explained for me why I never really do Kynan's POV - he runs the mind meld.
<BarGnat_> But the only comedic novels I've read are the Terry Pratchett kind of thing... and that's not how I write
<Gerri> don't get me going on Haydon's third book. We'll be here all nite w/ me foaming at the mouth.
<Anne_Marble> Headhopping is when the POV switches back & forth during a single scene. Noticeably. Even though it's supposed to be limited and not omniscient.
<Becca> Anyone read Mickey Zucker Reichert?
<Linnet> Robert> That WOULD get kinda confusing, eh?
<Fredrick> Personally I dislike headhopping. When I write, I like to keep my train of thought on one character's mind primarily...unless it's a telepathic conversation or some kind of mind to mind exchange.
<@SLViehl> (patting Gerri on the shoulder) There, there. We won't talk about her anymore
<BarGnat_> Anne... whew. I'm not guilty of headhopping, then.
<Gerri> John(?) deChance....Piers Anthony...those are good comedic authors.
<Becca> Gerri-withot making you foam, should I read it?
<Jehane> if you're looking for comedy, there's douglas adams, tom holt, robert rankin, harry harrison
<Kay> Sometimes you don't have to show WHAT the other people are doing when they're doing it. Sometimes it's enough to show the effect it has on teh "best laid plans" of the POV characters you ARE using.
<BarGnat_> I've read Harrison for years. Love him.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Mary?
<Gerri> excepting one very badly used subplot, it's pretty darn good stuff. however, the subplot is just HORRID.
<Gerri> and destroys all story continunity.
<Becca> Gerri-the romance one?
<@SLViehl> I'd go with what feels right during the writing, Mary. Sometimes your instincts as a writer are the best guides.
<Linnet> Remember to stick to just what your person sees or hears. No omniscience allowed when you're in the POV
<Gerri> the one at the end, about how she believes she's pregnant...
<BarGnat_> thx, everyone
<Gerri> *bites something. feels foam coming on*
<Lucas> I keep thinking of those recently published big fat books about the cyber-world thing. Unfortunately, I have no clue what they were called. It was a four books set, something like the Glass Mountain was one of them? Sigh.
<Becca> I vaguely remember that. Sorry for the foam, Gerri!
<Nathan> Yur Velcome
<Gerri> Tad Williams.
<Anne_Marble> Tad Williams?
<Fredrick> Otherland
<Anne_Marble> Woohoo!
<Lucas> Yes, those.
<Fredrick> Haven't read it yet.
<Lucas> Those had multiple viewpoints.
<Anne_Marble> I didn't call him Thingie!
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all for some interesting POVs on POVs (g). Becca, you're up, then Nathan, you're after Becca.
<Gerri> lol
<Linnet> Yay Anne! rofl
<kaelle> Yay, Anne
<Kay> Good for you, Anne!
<Becca> Okay, as usual, I'm long winded so bear with me.
<Gerri> (Read Sharon Greene for good POV training)
<@SLViehl> We love long winded questions
<Becca> My story involves a girl who will somehow bring about a lot of doom and gloom (she's not the MC, will eventually become the villain, and for those who remember my question a couple weeks ago about a disappeared father, this is the girl he tried to kill). I want to do something more interesting than "she'll destroy the world."
<Peg> And we provide equally long-winded answers.
<Becca> It has to involve magic on a large scale (ie. bigger than just a war or something). She was "killed" a couple of years ago because someone feared what she would do, but all that has actually happened is that she's reverted to a state of magic. Now she's starting to return (by possessing my MC-but that's for later).
<Becca> And the reason that she's stuck to this destiny is a spirit inside her.
<Becca> <end long-windedness>
<Robert> She might destroy a culture or change it beyond recognition
<Peg> Becca--how about instead of destroying the world, she decides to destroy the magic in the world?
<@SLViehl> Nice idea, Peg
<Anne_Marble> Maybe instead of killing the world, she can subtly change it so that people succumb to her will. Like the kid in that spooky Twilight Zone episode! :-/
<kaelle> Oooo Peg
<James> Alter the environment to make it more suitable to beings of the sort that's possessed her?
<Kay> Patricia Kenneally (Morrison) has a character use magic to slag a world from space in The Silver Branch
<Becca> People would be happy about that though, Peg. Magic is a nuicance.
<Gerri> there's the "end of an era" trick.
<Kay> Burns it right down to the bedrock
<Becca> How so, Gerri?
<Fredrick> Deprive everyone of emotions
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, oooh, she can give magic to everyone.
<Peg> K, Becca, didn't know that--most people think magic is a good thing. )
<@SLViehl> Seems like this girl would want to be more in control of things than going out destroying them. What if she could somehow enslave the population to her will forever?
<Peg> There you go, Anne--turned my comment upside down.
<Kay> Oh, ANNE, that's GOOD
<Fredrick> Deprive the world of music. That would be bad.
<Gerri> she changes the world in such a way that one era, like the bronze age, ends, and the next begins.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe she wants to bring equality, and she did it by giving everyone powers.
<James> Destroy time so that there's no causality or duration or history, just a grim, horrible present moment.
<Peg> Or what if she could simply control one aspect of the world.....
<Kay> That
<Fredrick> Good one, James.
<Becca> She's not evil, though, at the start. It's more like she's possessed.
<Peg> Very nice, James.
<Anne_Marble> <preen> I know, I might just use it for one of my stories.
<Robert> Found something like the Hars Ticlarim...
<Gerri> there's some great inspiration in the first book of Ovid's Metamorphosis...
<Peg> Becca--you don't have to be evil to do evil things. You just have to believe that you're right.
<@SLViehl> Or alternately put everyone where she was for random periods of time. Sporadic enslavement.
<Becca> I've played around with the idea that her original purpose is good, but if it happens, a lot of people will be screwed over.
<Kay> Barbara Hambly wizard thing that caused worldwide depression when it went online -- her first big breakout book -- what was it called?
<Fredrick> Send plagues that are not fatal, but cause horrible suffering.
<Robert> I like that, Becca. If she starts a rrevolution it can turn nasty
<Nathan> Okay..I do not comprehend the question...what's the question in a nutshell ?
<kaelle> Acts as a catalyst, then. Changes the world around her. Lots of turmoil without destroying the world.
<Linnet> She gives power to anyone who can accept it, and anyone who couldnt' would be killed
<Peg> Kaelle--catalyst. Good one!
<@SLViehl> Nathan, what Becca wants to know is what this character can do besides destroy the world when she comes into power.
<Becca> Yeah, I like that, Kaelle.
<Anne_Marble> I almost created someone like that. She tried to make an environmental "point" with a protest, only she unleashed a horrid virus by accident.
<Kay> Q in a nutshell: How can somebody destroy the world with good intentions in a creative way.
<James> Drains all the empathy from the world, leading to endless conflict from the lowest to the highest.
<Kay> ?
<Fredrick> Give people false memories of a better time, then deconstruct them.
<Becca> LOL, thank you, Kay.
<Peg> It's the backlash that gets you, every time.
<Nathan> Hmmmm
<BarGnat_> Ask PETA, Kay
<Kay> PETA?
<Fredrick> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
<Kay> o
<Becca> Oh yeah...
<Catherine/splodge> idealogues often make the best bad guys - she wants seomthing good for the world but will use bad means to get it
<Peg> If she's being possessed, Becca--is it her or the possessor that wants to do the evil thing / thing that becomes evil?
<BarGnat_> aka People Eating Tasty Animals
<Lucas> She could cause a lot of problems by using magic that gives great power to inanimate objects which procede to use it in ways dictated by the intentions/emotions of the creatures nearest to them at the time of the empowering.
<@SLViehl> Turning society upside down would reek havoc -- putting the serfs in charge of the nobles, the animals in charge of the humans, etc.
<Peg> ROFL Mary
<James> Eliminate death -- but end the generation of all new life?
<Fredrick> There's an idea. Get rid of ethics.
<Anne_Marble> She freed the fruit flies, only they turned out to be carrying a disease or something.
<Kay> LOL Mary!
<Nathan> [scracting head]Maybe she turns everybody into some sort of animal that lives on that world
<Becca> Peg-yes.
<Gerri> there's another book where they almost wiped out evil...and good got so strong that the planet almost exploded.
<Fredrick> Make everyone in the kingdom vampires.
<Peg> Becca--yes to her? or Yes to the spirit?
<Fredrick> Who have no blood to feed on.
<Gerri> so the last remaining evil people had to go open the evil portal and let evil back into the world to keep the balance.
<Fredrick> Hunger.
<Kay> Frederic, that would WORK
<Fredrick> Hunger's real bad.
<Kay> it woudl be cruel, but it would work
<Kay> yes, hunger stinks
<Fredrick> Just look at the concetration camps during WWII.
<Nathan> In said world, is there some form of money, or does society rely on barter
<Nathan> ?
<Becca> There's money, Nathan.
<James> As a spirit, perhaps it wants to put an end to flesh-life -- reduce everyone to angry, miserable spirits wandering the ruins of the world.
<Kay> (how PG-13 do we have to be? Is it okay to use swear words?
<Lucas> There is the balance issue, as Gerri mentioned. If certain forces increase, even good ones, they might cause much difficulty.
<@SLViehl> By depriving the population of something harmful -- say, magic -- she might drive them to get it from less than savory sources. That would work for me.
<Nathan> Coins or paper?
<Fredrick> Deformed children.
<Becca> Kay-I think I'm the only minor, and I don't care.
<Kay> Ohhh, Sheila -- VErrrry Evillllllll
<Becca> But it's Sheila's conference.
<Gerri> what if it's about (nathan, look away) sexual control?
<Peg> Or she does something that has a delayed reaction...say, next generation.
<Peg> Becca--Nathan's also underage.
<@SLViehl> Mild swear words are okay. No eff words, please.
<Becca> Oh, okay.
<Kay> Thanks -- just wanted to know
<Robert> Magic for the masses results in magical terrorism from the underclass
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Becca?
<Lucas> Everyone could get addicted to some kind of drug that, when they have it, doesn't do anything bad, but it's in such short supply that everyone fights for it.
<BarGnat_> Shuckie-darn. (Just practicing)
<Kay> LOL BG!
<Fredrick> Blot out the sun. It's cliche, but it could work.
<Becca> Thank you, everyone.
<Gerri> what if when a body dies, the spirit has to go into a newborn immediately, so there's a whole market for baby farms...or she creates this imbalance...
<Nathan> Maybe she changes all the trees (not all, but all) the trees into money trees
<Gerri> and sex becomes about control...progenity and all that in a literal way.
<Peg> oooh Gerri.... and Nathan that would seriously warp the economy.
<Kay> There was a WONDERFUL story set on Venus, where a kid got put in the closet during the only sunshine for 40 years as a time out for talking in class
<Kay> I hated it
<Fredrick> Put a magic toll on the kindgom.
<@SLViehl> I'd like to see your character solve what she sees as a great harmful thing, like magic, by taking it away, Becca -- and driving the people crazy for it in the process. I think that's a neat alternative to outright destruction, and sticks to your plot goal.
<Robert> I remember that story, Kay
<Gerri> that story was soooooooo powerful, Kayl
<Kay> Do you? Do you remember who wrote it?
<Gerri> no, I don't.
<Robert> Ray Bradbury
<kaelle> I read that story, Kay. Don't remember the author.
<Nathan> Yeah...isn't it crazy how all my briliant ideas aren't so brilliant
<Kay> I've wondred for years. Sounds Bradbury, makes sense.
<Becca> It's okay, Nathan, mine are the same way.
<Peg> Nathan--I didn't mean warping the economy as a side effect was bad. It could well be what Becca's lookng for.
<Fredrick> Any idea can be brilliant, it just takes the right kind of perspective.
<Peg> It would also be something completely different from what most people would expect.
<Kay> I actually rather like the money grows on trees thing. Just THINK about eh inflation!
<Nathan> and isn't briliant how all my crazy ideas are briliant?
<Becca> Hmm...so what about a "we're trying to make heaven on earth" kind of thing and a lot of people get killed in the process? Is that cliched?
<Lucas> People would quickly find another exchange medium.
<Becca> Ack, sounds bad even as I type it.
<Gerri> not really, becca.
<Robert> Not really when I think about Bolshevick revolution or French
<Fredrick> A world where actions have no repercussions and nothing you do matters.
<Peg> Becca--anything can be cliched if it's done badly. If done well, it transcends the cliche.
<Nathan> Or she turns the streets into gold
<@SLViehl> thanks all for some great ideas -- Nathan, you're up, then Fredrick is after Nathan.
<Becca> I REALLY like that, Frederick. Cause that fits some of my themes.
<Nathan> I m in the process of rewriting one of my short stories...is there anything I should keep in mind while doing this? Also, are there any suggested subplots that I might add?
<@SLViehl> Can you tell us a little about the story, Nathan?
<Peg> Go read the transcripts of zette's After the First Draft classes, Nathan.
<Linnet> Could you be more specific?
<Becca> Check out Holly's article on one-shot revision...she has a point about not revising something to death.
<Peg> Bunches of good info there.
<Nathan> Anybody remember my winterfest tale?
<Gerri> not sure short stories require subplots.
<Kay> It helps me to give it a little time, so that i'm not so deeplly into the story when i do the rewrite
<Kay> Also, I like to go through and make sure the dialog sounds natural.
<Fredrick> Short stories don't really have time for subplots, I think. Could be wrong, though.
<Peg> Gerri has a point. A short story is about THE moment that change's the character's life. There really isn't room for a subplot.
<Fredrick> No, not always.
<kaelle> When I write a short story, there's usually only one plot.
<BarGnat_> Depends on how short the short story is, too.
<@SLViehl> You can put lots of twists in the plot, though
<BarGnat_> IMO, of course
<Fredrick> Hemingway's stories didn't always have character change.
<Nathan> well, it's basically the same story , just with a sorta different plot
<Kay> I'm sorry, but I don't happen to. Still, that sounds like it would have "aged" enough to give you enough perspective to see it more as your reader will, Nathan.
<Nathan> like what kinda twists?
<Fredrick> The old double cross
<kaelle> And I try to keep in mind just what did I want to say with this story, and did I do that?
<Robert> Summarize the plot you have and I can try to come up with something.
<Peg> Nathan--no real way to answer that without having read the story. Which I haven't.
<Fredrick> Smile on the face and knife in the back
<James> Sorry, Nathan -- I missed most of the winterfest entries. Could you thumbnail it?
<Linnet> Put a person in there who's mildly annoying and keeps throwing wrenches in little plans
<@SLViehl> If you've seen Holly's plot thread drawings, the best plots are the ones that aren't straight and linear, Nathan. Don't do what the reader expects you to do. That's what I mean by twists.
<Nathan> I'm thinking of putting it up on crits
<Nathan> thubnail?
<Kay> Have you gotten any crits on it, Nathan? I found that crits really helped me on the only short story I have ever finished the rough draft of.
<Becca> You should, Nathan.
<@SLViehl> A thumbnail is a short description of the story plot, Nathan
<Robert> Just say what happens in a sentence or two.
<James> A very brief summary, Nathan.
<Nathan> I haven't posted it yet, kay
<Fredrick> Damon Knight said that you should have at least three characters, so that the third could take the story in a different direction.
<Kay> It really helped me a lot to get crits.
<Nathan> uhhh...sure
<Fredrick> Or something like that.
<Robert> If you don't intend to make it longer don't tinker with the plot much.
<Kay> The people who read it used Holly's crit form mostly, and seeing what they said showed me ways i could make it tighter.
<Fredrick> Watch Memento. Great plot twists. The more info you learn, the more the story changes.
<Becca> Is there such thing as twisting a plot too much?
<Kay> Are you in a crit circle Nathan?
<Linnet> Just please, no Robert Jordan
<Fredrick> Yes, definitely.
<Peg> Becca--absolutely.
<@SLViehl> Yes, Becca, when you lose the reader in the process
<Fredrick> You can twist a story till it snaps .
<Becca> Amen, Linnet.
<Robert> Boy meets girl. Girl has fleas. Boy seeks solution. Boy gets neutered. They were cats.
<Nathan> When the winterfest, a anual fest, that helps the alderrarians unite, coincides with the light, the Demararians see the perfect chance to invade
<@SLViehl> perfect analogy, Fredrick
<Fredrick> :), Robert
<Jehane> lol robert
<kaelle> lol Robert
<kaelle> Hi Sophie!
<Nathan> No, I'm not in a crit circle
<Nathan> Hi labloch
<Fredrick> A little twist can go a long way, Nathan.
<James> Does the story end on the invasion, Nathan?
<Catherine/splodge> lol, robert
<Fredrick> What if their own people set up the invasion?
<Becca> Does anyone here watch Buffy? There have been some beautiful plot twists over the years.
<Kay> That's a catchy intro Nathan.
<Labloch> (hi all! Staying under the flow of ideas. )
<Nathan> no...the story ends when...SPOILER...the Alderrarians defeat the Demalarians...for the third time
<Becca> What if the invaders are saviors in some way?
<Fredrick> What if they save the people by defeating them?
<Fredrick> In defeat lies salvation.
<kaelle> Yes, <echoing Becca> what if the invasion would have helped the people?
<Kay> I like that, it fits with Winterfest/ Sunreturn, etc
<Peg> Or, changing Becca's question, slightly, what if the invaders are somehow necessary for the continued functioning of the basic culture?
<Robert> Yeah
<Nathan> it wouldn't have
<Kay> Like competition for a good athlete
<Linnet> Pride goeth before destruction?
<Kay> except i don't like killing people
<Peg> You were looking for a twist, Nathan, and that's a good one.
<Fredrick> A Wag the Dog scenario--what if the invasion is a publicity stunt to draw attention away from a bigger issue?
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nathan?
<Peg> Good one, Fredrick.
<Kay> Crit for the people you want to crit for you.
<Nathan> The alderrarians would then be put into slavery, and the whole galaxy would be controled by the Alderrarians
<Robert> The invaders are defeated but they had fleas and a plague hits hte land...
<Kay> Ask people you liek and respect to crit for you.
<Nathan> lol
<James> Twist-wise, the Alderrarians could allow the Demalarians to think they've successfully invaded, but they
<@SLViehl> I'd have the invaders be conquered by their victims -- who planned the fest as bait.
<Kay> Get at least 4 crits before revising
<Gerri> steals Ari and pets him
<Robert> <snuggles Gerri and purrs a lot>
<Kay> crits are good
<James> oops -- but they've only let them invade what amounts to a zoo -- a place where the enemy can live forever in eternal enjoyment of their false victory.
<Robert> Crits are good. You've got a straightforward action tale, Nathan and reading some military fantasy will help.
<Robert> Nice, James.
<Peg> Good, James.
<@SLViehl> thanks to all for some good ideas on plot twists. Fredrick, you're up, Gerri, you're after Fredrick.
<Nathan> Okay....thanks all
<kaelle> James <admiringly> you are a mean one.
<Fredrick> I have a idea for a science fiction story where only vegetarians are allowed to be literate while meat eaters are illiterate. They have to give up meat in order to be able to read.
<James> I don't like invaders
<Fredrick> Question: how could I make this idea play? I was thinking maybe humorous. Any scientific angles?
<Becca> Is this by law or genetic?
<James> Fredrick, you come up with the most amazing worlds...
<Peg> Is this a future Earth story?
<Fredrick> Too much protein makes them illiterate.
<Catherine/splodge> Fredrick - your scenarios never fail to amaze me LOL
<Fredrick> Yes, future Earth.
<Catherine/splodge> There are contaminants in meat?
<Fredrick> Psycho vegan attack!
<kaelle> There would be some who would want to and some who wouldn't care, I'd think.
<@SLViehl> Cholesterol blindness. I could smirk over that.
<Labloch> Or economics--money for either meat or literacy
<Peg> Erm--then you'll probably do well by playing it more or less humorously and have a Radical Green group get into power.
<Becca> Agreed, Catherine. Makes me think twice before eating the steak downstairs...
<Linnet> So are the animals smart, too?
<Catherine/splodge> A genetic shift that makes you unable to digest meat properly, leading to improper nutrition?
<Fredrick> The more beef you eat, the less you read. I'm not sure about fish.
<Anne_Marble> This could be a great satire.
<Lucas> Meat isn't the biggest source of protein is it? What about wheat gluten flour? That's 70 to 80 percent protein.
<James> The problem is making it seem reasonable that people would choose to eat meet when there were dreadful penalties against it.
<Peg> They tried to outlaw meat-eating completely, but a strong Midwestern and Texan contingent refused to give up their barbecues.....
<Robert> Catherine's got a basis for it.
<@SLViehl> Actually, you can have a chemical imbalance induced by meat proteins that induces a form of dyslexia
<Fredrick> Yes, good, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe meat is addictive.
<Peg> Very good, Sheila.
<Linnet> Are they fed meat on purpose?
<Becca> Are humans drawn to eat meat?
<Gerri> is that's what's wrong with my soon-to-be ex?
<Robert> I am, I don't know about you
<Fredrick> You can eat meat all you want, but you won't be able to read as a result.
<@SLViehl> The humorous part would come in when vegans sneak some meat on the side, and go word-blind.
<Labloch> lol
<Fredrick>
<James> Addictive is interesting. Fun in that, I think.
<Nathan> Are the carnivores fruitarian or sumpthin?
<Lucas> Is it that you aren't capable of reading? Or just not allowed?
<Fredrick> You could have meat markets.
<Catherine/splodge> Or the psyhcological evolution of the species hasn't kept up with the genetic shift
<@SLViehl> Since the vegans are the literate folks, they'd be the merchants, record keepers, and civil servants
<Becca> How many times does it take? Does it wear off?
<Anne_Marble> Animals leak out certain weeds that make people get high, and you want more meat. You have to go through withdrawal to become a vegetarian. And vegetarians (even the most fervent) are all recovering addicts.
<Labloch> You could also have a warrior class of meateaters and ruling/lawmaking class of vegs
<Catherine/splodge> People want to eat meat even though they can't
<Fredrick> I'm not sure about soya, though.
<James> Underpaid authors picketing meatworks...
<Fredrick> Fahrenheit 451 with beef
<@SLViehl> Oh, James, lol
<Peg> LOL James.
<Robert> What you have with that is something that mad scientists cooked up to make vegans a ruling caste.
<Linnet> lol Fredrick
<Anne_Marble> And if you wanted to mess up an enemy's career, arrange to have his fooded fried in beef fat instead of veggie oil!
<Gerri> what about lacto-ova vegetarians?
<@SLViehl> I can tell you as a vegetarian, sometimes the craving for meat is intense -- especially when I smell it.
<Nathan> Are the carnivores fruitarian or sumpthin?
<BarGnat_> Researchers could have found a cure for the genetic problem... but the veggie folks in control sit on the info because they don't want to lose power
<Peg> Carnivores eat meat, Nathan.
<BarGnat_> or have competition for literacy
<@SLViehl> Ooooh, Mary, I like that
<Fredrick> Someone tries to make it both ways, but is hunted by the Vegan Police.
<Gerri> I've been a lacto-ova for almost 33 years now, (and I turn 33 in less than a week)
<Becca> I agree with whoever said this would work wonderfully as satire.
<Robert> Yikes, that's scary
<Fredrick> Lunch hour in the library would be bean sprouts.
<kaelle> Happy coming Birthday, Gerri
<Fredrick> Ugh.
<Gerri> thanks
<@SLViehl> Imagine spiking some politician's salad with beef-saturated dressing.
<Peg> Just think though--vegetarian food fights....
<Labloch> ooh, meat tasters for the powerful folks
<Fredrick> As a lifelong meat-eater and reader, I'd probably go nuts in this society.
<Nathan> Happy pre Birthday Gerri
<Labloch> lol same here
<Gerri> lol, fredrick
<Robert> I would too, Fredrick, no doubt why you're writing it!
<Fredrick> Which is why the idea occurred to me.
<Nathan> I could probably live in this society
<Linnet> What type of withdrawals would there be? Would there be a drying-out period?
<Fredrick> I was also thinking a 12 step program for meat eaters. Carnivores Anonymous.
<Linnet> My husband is remarking that vegetarian noses are more sensitive to meat smells... the spiking wouldn't work
<Nathan> My moms a sort-a vegetarian...she'll eat chicken, turkey, and fish...
<kaelle> I could live without meat easily as long as I was able to read!
<@SLViehl> Well, if you consider it takes seven years for the human body to completely replace its own cells, and if your meat-dyslexia affects the brain on the cellular level....
<Gerri> yeah, you know real fast when there's meat involved...one taste and it's spitting out time.
<@SLViehl> Eating a hot dog would bring you seven years bad luck.
<Nathan> and just so I can't have it all, when we have some...london broild an/or chaeteu briano(sp?)
<Linnet> no, Sheila REAL meat!
<Fredrick> There could be a scandal when it's found that ground beef is being slipped into the all-vegetable meals.
<Peg> Stock in Boca would go through the roof, though....
<@SLViehl> I was thinking Hebrew National, Linnet, lol
<kaelle> lol Linnet
<Robert> Yep, Fredrick
<Linnet> (buries face in hands)
<Lucas> The meat could be only a chemical effect. Some kind of symbiotic organisms adopted by the human race in order to obtain something (superior intelligence, long life, etc.) could have a strange reaction to meat that affects the chemical balance of the brain.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Fredrick?
<Fredrick> Could people also lose their capacity to speak maybe. Only veggie speakers and meatmutes.
<@SLViehl> Nice idea, Lucas
<Nathan> these people who only like to eat meat...are they frutarian?
<James> Like that, Lucas.
<Robert> Right, something makes iit WORSE
<Nathan> (for the third time)
<Fredrick> They can eat fruit. I'm not sure about cheese.
<Peg> Sorry, Nathan. Carnivores eat meat, fruit, vegetables. Only Dr. Atkins eats all meat.
<@SLViehl> No, Nathan, people who eat meat are considered carnivores.
<Peg> And he had a heart attack. Go figure.
<Becca> Maybe cheese does something different?
<Lucas> Human digestive systems most closely resemble herbivores, not carnivores of even omnivores.
<Fredrick> Gives you aphasia?
<BarGnat_> omnivores eat anything
<@SLViehl> thanks all for some interesting spins on diet and effect. Gerri, you're up, then we'll take a five minute break.
<Fredrick> There could be a program: Vegans for Literacy
<Peg> Mary--as long as it doesn't eat them first.
<Linnet> Then what's the appendix for, Lucha?
<Gerri> ok..this has 3 parts...please wait until they're all up
<BarGnat_> hehehe, Peg
<Gerri> My writing partner and I are working on a novel done in the style of Japanese Anime. Would you be attracted to this concept, neutral, or dislike it b4 reading? (just trying to get a gague of an audience).
<Gerri> The novel is a quest; five misfits must find the five stars of oolah in order to change the Prince from Aquarian back to human, a condition he got when he kissed the water nymph. However, the oracle who sent them on the quest isn't all that he seems....
<Gerri> We're working to make the story imitate a season of anime, 24 chapters of approximately the same length, and we intend to write very visually, almost screenplay like, with little to no inside head time. Just what you see/hear on the screen. Comments/suggestions?
<Nathan> Fruitarians isn;t just fruit...they don't eat anything that grew on a plant, unless it has fallen off, because otherwise, in their perspective, the fruit/vegteble has been murdered
<Nathan> oh...sorry Gerri
<Gerri> isok all parts are up now.
<Peg> Gerri--I might not be interested, but that doesn't mean the concept isn't good. This a Y/A thing or adult?
<Robert> Gerri, I think people who like anime will enjoy it.
<Lucas> How can you do a novel in Anime? That's a drawing technique. Do you mean it would be a graphic novel?
<Fredrick> Is it like manga?
<Linnet> Ooh la la!! (giggling) Sorry, couldn't resist
<@SLViehl> I think that's more a long the lines of a graphic novel, Gerri
<Gerri> it's like a manga....
<Gerri> we don't have the skills to make a graphic novel
<Robert> I think if you can pull iit off with descriptions it may work. Neverwhere reminded me of that a bit, by Neil Gaiman. As writing technique it can be done.
<@SLViehl> My first concern would be your market -- where are you going to sell this novel?
<Nathan> I have a friend who draws jap. anime
<Fredrick> It might work, though it might help to show thoughts. Comic books and graphic novels often show thought balloons.
<Fredrick> Is this book violent?
<Nathan> It definitly sounds interesting
<@SLViehl> Or you could adapt it into screenplay format
<Fredrick> Very violent? Not too violent?
<Gerri> that's part of the question, Sheila...will mainstream fantasy publications be interested in something like this?
<Peg> Gerri--what's your target audience?
<Lucas> Strange. Why do think you'd like to do this? What attracts you the most to the idea?
<Fredrick> Yes, there's an idea, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> As a media tie-in Gerri, yeah, I think so -- as a new concept, hmmm. Not sure.
<James> I can't see it failing just on the basis of what you've described -- it would come down to execution.
<Fredrick> The only problem with screenplays is that even if they get accepted, someone will come along and rewrite it, probably badly.
<@SLViehl> It would have to have an extremely strong proposal, I think.
<Robert> It would depend for me on the characters of the misfits, a lot on the particular characters.
<magicalbookworm> well, i have to go... bye everyone
<@SLViehl> Night Magic
<Peg> Bye, Magical.
<Linnet> bye MBW!
<kaelle> bye magic
<Robert> See you later, magical
<BarGnat_> Bye Magic
<Kay> (sorry, migraine's worse gotta go. No fuss please)
<Gerri> yeah, we're actually writing each chapter in the book as a script just to get the timing down.
<@SLViehl> Bye Kay
<Robert> The experimental style wouldn't bother me if it's done well.
<Peg> Bye, Kay
<kaelle> bye Kay
<Labloch> bye kay
<Jehane> bye magic, kay
<BarGnat_> Bye Kay
<Robert> Mew, take care Kay, hope you feel better.
<Lucas> "The Last Unicorn" screenplay was written by the author...
<Fredrick> Good night, kay.
<Catherine/splodge> bye kay!
<James> See you, MBW.
<Peg> Lucas--that's extremely unusual.
<Lucas> Though it was admittedly unusual.
<Peg> Most novelists just don't have a feel for screenplay requirements.
<@SLViehl> What you might do, Gerri, is three chapters, then send it out and see what kind of reception you get from the publishers
<Catherine/splodge> bye mbw
<Fredrick> William Goldman does.
<Gerri> I write both.
<Labloch> William Goldman's books on writing are good
<Gerri> would they react to just 3 chapters?
<Peg> Goldman was a screenwriter frist, Fredrick.
<Fredrick> And he is an excellent writer.
<Labloch> for screenwriting tips, that is
<Robert> Screenplay experience would help
<Fredrick> No, he was a novelist first. Peg. The Temple of Gold back in the 50's
<Gerri> without knowing if the rest of the book is there or not?
<Linnet> Helllo Hugh
<BarGnat_> Hi, Hugh
<Fredrick> He wrote Butch Cassidy later.
<Peg> ?? That's a rare one, Fredrick.
<@SLViehl> You can work on the rest of the book while the submissions are making the rounds -- and it limits your time investment.
<Fredrick> As well as others.
<James> Have you read the books by Pat Cadigan which explicitly pretend to be books by Max Merriwell (I think) or by one of Merriwell's pseudonyms?
<HughSider> Hello all. Mostly auditing
<Gerri> true....
<Robert> Hi Hugh
<Linnet> Feel free to throw your two-cents' worth in any time Hugh
<Labloch> The dude who did Babylon 5 has excellent advice on writing/screenwriting, too..JMS?
<Gerri> I've just been wondering about how approachable publishers would be with something different...
<Fredrick> Neil Gaiman did Sandman in a graphic format.
<Fredrick> Yes, JMS, good writer.
<@SLViehl> If you send out a three chapter proposal, you'll find out. Or send out query letters now.
<Gerri> of course, execution is everything, but with a built-in audience.
<Robert> A proposal might also lead to lining you up with an artist who draws well for a graphic novel treatment.
<Nathan> Hi Hugh
<Peg> JMS has a book on screenwriting out that covers all formats.
<Gerri> that's true, robert.
<@SLViehl> Publishers want original novels they can market.
<James> You could do something similar: pretend your book is a novelization of a great anime series, and be terribly self-aware about it.
<Gerri> that's what we're doing, James
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, I like that James.
<Labloch> I second all the "send out feelers", Gerri.
<Fredrick> I think that Americans are becoming more interested in Eastern art forms, including manga and anime, so it could work.
<Fredrick> If not, you could always turn it into a straight novel.
<Robert> I think it's extremely popular but there are some mostly visual things about it that I dont' care for.
<Linnet> I agree.. I know I'd be interested, anyway
<@SLViehl> Media tie-ins represent 50% of all SF/F being published today, so it's worth a shot.
<Gerri> we're not going to do all the "breaks" and head spins and sweat drops.
<James> I've slowed down to the point where I've stopped making sense, so I'm going to pop out then back in again. brb.
<Gerri> it'll be less...anime in those terms.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Gerri?
<Lucas> I don't know enough about to know how a book written like anime would differ from a normal one.
<Fredrick> As long as it's not endless fight scenes and fireballs and low cut shirts, then it could play.
<Gerri> it's really got a good plot...we worked hard on that.
<Robert> Are all five characters adults?
<Gerri> and lots of sexual innuendo...
<BarGnat_> The story premise you gave us to start with is fascinating
<Gerri> nope. one is a little girl.
<Gerri> a Kat girl.
<kaelle> I can't offer any advice as I'm not into anime. Shucks. But the story sounds good.
<Anne_Marble> Someone once said that the best possible popular SF novel would be something that managed to combine the feel of media fiction with the feel of a regular novel and managed to have additional layers as well.
<@SLViehl> I'd query publishers who already work with anime tie-ins, if possible.
<Gerri> has a scouting mission now
<BarGnat_>
<James> Then immerse your text in existing anime. Anime quotes for chapter headings, anime cover, whatever you can come up with.
<Lucas> An anime tie in with no anime to tie into. See what you can do and report back.
<Gerri> I like that quote, Anne.
<@SLViehl> Check out the spines of graphic novels and anime novels at the bookstore. Make a list. Check them out.
<Fredrick> Cowboy Bebop was not just great anime, but really good science fiction too.
<Gerri> we're hoping to do the novel and then get a media tie-in
<Fredrick> Scientific inaccuracies aside
<Linnet> Go for it!
<@SLViehl> thanks to all for some great ideas -- let's take a five minute break now.
<Gerri> and then hand them the scripts all innocent-like
<@SLViehl> I'm running for tea, brb.
<Fredrick> BRB
<Linnet> Lemonade! Get your hot hot lemonade here!
<James> Ahah, a break -- brb
<Gerri> potty.
<kaelle> afk
<BarGnat_> off to the fridge
<Nathan> How much, Linnet
<Linnet> (streeeeeeetch
<Nathan> ?
<Linnet> on da house! (pours him a cup)
<Robert> brb
<Nathan> Cool, thanks....
<Anne_Marble> pitter patter pitter patter...
<BarGnat_> (g)
<Linnet> Hey Hugh... sorry we haven't seen you in chat!
<@SLViehl> Hiya Hugh, welcome to the TT
<Nathan> [takes a sip] ouch! what are you trying to do...burn my tongue!?!?
<Linnet> silly! Blow on it!
<@SLViehl> No getting the youngsters sauced on spiked lemonade, now....
<Nathan> oh....
<Linnet> (pouts) Ain't spiked!
<Peg> BAK
<Linnet> I swear!
<kaelle> bak...It's good for any head thingies. (g)
<@SLViehl> Okay, I'll trust you this time....lol
<BarGnat_> Fredrick> thx for your question... gave me a sort of tangential story idea!
<Nathan> BRB...going to get some hot Lemon/Lime
<HughSider> Sorry everyone, I'm distracted, working late.
<@SLViehl> No problem, Hugh.
<Fredrick> I'm back
<Linnet> Know the feeling
<Fredrick> You're welcome, Bar Gnat.
<Nathan> back for a second
<Linnet> Stick out your tongue... I got some ointment! LOL
<James> Back. Refreshed and caffeinated...
<Fredrick> Sometimes I wonder if there isn't idea gnomes crawling around my head, leaving little nugget and then bolting
<Gerri> *sighs w/ relief*
<@SLViehl> (taking James's pulse) Too much caffeine, I send over the Marines....
<kaelle> lol,. Fredrick
<Nathan> {way}What type of ointment?
<Nathan> way=wary
<@SLViehl> Fredrick, I like the way you plot. You come up with the most original ideas.
<Linnet> oh don't worry... your tastebuds are numb anyhow
<James> I passed too much about three hours ago, I'm afraid. Vibrating so hard now I'm barely visible
<Nathan> is it a hot ointment, or a cold ointment?
<@SLViehl> You are not allowed to warp into another dimension, James.
<Peg> LOL James. Careful not to fall through the floor.
<Lucas> Idea gnomes. They don't even have to carry nuggets. They just come in and stir up what's already there. I would imagine that is usually enough.
<kaelle> lol, James
<Gerri> look out, James! Coming Through!
<Fredrick> Thanks, Sheila.
<Gerri> vibrates in from the other angle
<@SLViehl> brb, kettle's calling
<Nathan> Anybody ever tryed to eat a Lemon/Lime like you would an orange?
<Fredrick> So they just takes what's in my brain blender and hit frappee
<James> I shall make myself a red spandex costume and call myself the Flash. Actually, I might not...
<Nathan> Or how about a grapefruit?
<Fredrick> Maybe The Bulb
<Jehane> lol james
<Robert> bak
<Nathan> What about vice versa
<Linnet> I've seen someone eat an onion that way
<kaelle> Nathan, yes, I peel a grapefruit and eat the pulp.
<BarGnat_> Nathan> That is exactly how I eat grapefruit
<James> The bulb is too tulipy...
<Robert> Not me
<Fredrick> But it could flower into a good idea
<Nathan> really...hows it taste?
<Linnet> rofl Fredrick
<Jehane> lol fredrick
<Nathan> What about a lemon/lime
<kaelle> The pulp is good, just don't eat any of the stuff it's in. Bitter
<James> Hey, I'll do anything for a good idea, even bury my head in a field in Holland...
<@SLViehl> James in Spandex...?
<BarGnat_> Never tried it... doubt I ever will
<Fredrick> You know how these things bloom.
<Linnet> I gotta put the heathens to pasture.... g'night folks!
<BarGnat_> hehehe
<Fredrick> Superhero costumes designed by Armani.
<James> I know, Sheila, it's a grim mental picture. Still, it'd stop badguys in their tracks
<@SLViehl> Night Linnet
<BarGnat_> Night, Linnet
<kaelle> Bye Linnet
<Jehane> bye linnet
<Nathan> and speaking of Lemons and Limes my Mom and I are the proud new owners of two (we're getting a third soon) parakeets
<James> See you, Linnet
<kaelle> snarf, James
<Labloch> night linnet
<Peg> Night, Linnet
<Nathan> Bye linnet...thanks for the hot klemon
<Robert> Night, Linnet
<Fredrick> Why is it that every other superhero looks like he or she bought their costumes at the Salvation Army?
<@SLViehl> Yay, Nathan!
<@Jim> Night Linnet!
<Nathan> even though it burned my tongue
<Jehane> perhaps because they did, fredrick
<@SLViehl> It's because they were dressed by MEN, Fredrick. Colorblind MEN.
<Fredrick> Superheroes and fashion sense just don't mix.
<Peg> Fredrick--cause except for Batman and Iron Man, they're all broke working stiffs. They can't afford anything else.
<Linnet> (blows him a playful raspberry and vanishes)
<Nathan> There names are...yep, you guessed it Lemon and Lime
<James> No excuse for Spiderman, he had a widowed aunt who could have run him one up...
<Fredrick> What about Wonder Woman? Who designed her costume? Betsy Ross?
<Nathan> lol
<Peg> Oh, yeah, like he was going to tell her who he was.....
<Labloch> lol sheila
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom/snacks/whatever
<Peg> GTG, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> her costume was definitely designed by a man.
<Nathan> BRB
<@SLViehl> A man designed Wonder Woman. Sheesh, you don't think a WOMAN would wear a bra made out of metal.
<Lucas> There just aren't superheros who wear normal clothing are there?
<James> I'm sure she wouldn't have suspected a thing, Peg...
<kaelle> ready. Anybody remember Isis?
<Labloch> I'm just surprised WW didn't get an invisible outfit, too.
<@SLViehl> The Shadow. He was a snazzy dresser.
<Fredrick> What about Madonna?
<Peg> Kaelle--Yeah!
<Anne_Marble> Although after his death, I believe his wife took over, and her costume changed.
<Fredrick> Yes, he was. But then he could afford it.
<Peg> Sheila00true.
<kaelle> Peg, cool costume right?
<Robert> You have a point about Madonna
<Peg> Simple and elegant, kaelle. I liked it.
<Fredrick> A nudist superhero might be fun
<@SLViehl> And Wolverine was cool, even in yellow Spandex
<James> Madonna was probably commenting on the whole pointy bra thing.
<@Jim> The Streak!
<BarGnat_> lol
<Fredrick> Yes, Jim
<Robert> I liked Dr. Srange's cape and medieval tunic, it really went with the tights.
<kaelle> rofl, James
<Robert> He was well dressed.
<Lucas> I'm thinking about a comic book that made fun of that by having the main character a get stuck in an invulnerability suit. The trick was that, in order for it to be really invulnerable, she could never take it off.
<@SLViehl> Thor looked pretty good.
<Anne_Marble> Actually, IIRC the skirt got shorter when the guy's wife took over -- because she said "how could she do anything in that long skirt?"
<Peg> Fredrick--I always thought stretchy super-heroes would be nude. Don't know any fabric that can stretch as far as Mr. Fantastic or Plastic Man.
<Fredrick> The real Flash
<Peg> Anne--the skirt went away quickly.
<Peg> They realized that unless they were very careful of the angles, they'd be showing her crotch.
<Nathan> You know what I think is weird about spideyman
<Anne_Marble> I liked Kazar. He kept it simple. Long blond hair, muscles. Loincloth. Sabertooth tiger.
<Fredrick> Joan Rivers as superhero
<Peg> LOL We know Anne's priorities in a super-hero.....
<@SLViehl> Anne always goes for the basic primal male barbarian look....
<Fredrick> Captain Crunch had a nice outfit
<Nathan> His ability to shoot webs
<Lucas> To be invulnerabe, as the extra-dimensional aliens put it, wasn't just something you could be sometimes, you either were or you weren't.
<@Jim> Peg: that's why Marvel invented monomolecular fabric or something like that... same thing for when the human torch lit up... when he unlit, he'd be nude.
<Robert> That solves the stretch hero problem too. Gee string and leave off the rest.
<Anne_Marble> Tee hee
<Peg> Nathan--in the comic it's a gadget that does it. In the movie, it's a mutation.
<@SLViehl> Okay, folks, let's get back to work. Lucas, you're up, James, you're after Lucas
<James> I always forgave the web-shooting, 'cause the idea is so appealing.
<Robert> Asbestos shorts and have his clothes burn off every time.
<Peg> Jim--nope. Asbestos costume. )
<Nathan> oh...what do you mean it's a mutation?
<James> I might skip, Sheila, as I won't have a question til I actually write my wretched beginning later today...
<Peg> Just go see the movie, Nathan.
<Lucas> Ok, question coming up...
<Nathan> okay
<@SLViehl> No problem James.
<Robert> You would think though that people would notice spinnerets handshaking him...
<Lucas> I need a physical manifestation of a bond between two people (male and female in this case), preferably something that can be used in a bonding/tying/pairing ceremony of some sort.
<Fredrick> His web shooters are organic, they pop out of his wrists.
<Lucas> It would work ideally if the item was something that could be used in a formal ceremony but, with a minor re-arrangement or alteration could be turned into something rather "suggestive". I know we're PG-13 here, but so is the story, so that should be fine.
<Robert> Traditional would be a cord or ribbon.
<Gerri> nod.
<Anne_Marble> Jump over broom.
<Labloch> Um, a baby? (g)
<Fredrick> A ball and chain
<@SLViehl> handcuffs
<Peg> LOL Fredrick.
<Labloch> handcuffs
<Robert> lol Sheila
<BarGnat_> Loop their hands together with gold cords, which they keep forever
<Gerri> in my wedding, we used a strip of cloth left over from my wedding dress.
<Peg> Bracelets....
<Robert> Sheepskin lined handcuffs.
<kaelle> A pierced earring for each of them
<James> Slow moving tentacles of light that explore every inch of the betrothed's body before tangling unbreakably and disappearing.
<Fredrick> A lock of their mother-in-laws hair to let them know they'll always be watched.
<@SLViehl> A single garment slipped over both of them.
<Peg> James--good stuff.
<Labloch> ceremonial chains, light metal?
<Anne_Marble> One of those little lockets that comes apart.
<@SLViehl> braiding their hair together
<@Jim> I have magical bracelets in Battle Dragon... they bond to the skin and glow when held next to its mate.
<Robert> Take a chunk of hair from each and braid intoo the other's hair.
<Peg> A cord that wraps around their wrists for the ceremony--and then one's wrists later....
<Labloch> ooh, braids
<Fredrick> A prophlactic
<Robert> lol Fredrick
<Gerri> coughs
<@SLViehl> Caution, keep it clean, people
<Fredrick> Hey, that's PG-13
<Nathan> sci-fi or fantasy?
<Lucas> Fantasy.
<Robert> Clip their armpit hair together.
<Fredrick> A bearskin coat
<@SLViehl> That's why I'm just warning, Fredrick.
<James> But you're tempting us to responses that aren't, Fredrick
<Labloch> lol robert
<kaelle> rofl, Robert
<HughSider> From my first marraige, actually - the canopy (chuppa?) was a quilt, later used on our bed briefly.
<@SLViehl> Ouch, Robert
<Lucas> There is a magical bonding situation involved, besides just the obvious event that takes place.
<Fredrick> Windex
<Anne_Marble> Matching Tattoos or tribal scarring
<Gerri> maybe they grow little sockets on the back of their hands...and they have to match them up.
<Robert> The cord will not untie until it's consummated.
<@SLViehl> Flowers woven into their hair.
<Lucas> Windex?! Do I want to know what you mean by that?
<Gerri> lol
<Fredrick> It just came to me
<James> Sipping a from a cup of herbed liquid. Later, repeating, not necessarily from a cup.
<@SLViehl> Oh, there's an Indian thing -- piercing the wrists with a ring.
<Fredrick> Ouch!
<Labloch> ow
<@SLViehl> one ring between the two wrists.
<Robert> Yep some customs can get painful.
<kaelle> owie
<Nathan> uhhh...maybe...uh....hang on...I...uh...got an Idea....
<Anne_Marble> Hey, what about a symbiotic relationsship, like the little tentacles in the Sime-Gen books.
<James> I would never love someone enough to go through that.
<Nathan> uh...I...uh...think...uh....yeah
<Fredrick> Implant music onto their bodies
<@Jim> Everyone stand back... Nathan's gonna explode!!
<Peg> Crows/tiaras/headbands....
<@SLViehl> or they have to tatto each other with their names.
<Lucas> Ohh, that's painful and strange Shiela. I've heard of a lot of strange mutilations people have done, but pierced wrists were not among them.
<James> If I did, I wouldn't admit it.
<Nathan> LOL Jim
<Peg> Each would maniftest one for the other person....
<Nathan> or should I say...
<Nathan> uh...LOL...uh...Jim
<Fredrick> Moose antlers
<Robert> Their nose rings are clipped together.
<@SLViehl> I'll have to haul out Turner now and see which tribe did that . . . .
<Anne_Marble> Moose would be good. Maybe the smell of musk is symbolic!
<kaelle> Fredrick, did you have the hot lemonade?
<Fredrick> No, just coffee
<BarGnat_> You say there's magic involved in the ceremony?
<Lucas> You just keep making less sense Fredrick...
<@SLViehl> You could do a lock-and-key mechanism. I'm not going to get into details, but you get the idea.
<Fredrick> Ah, but the night is young, Lucas
<BeccaS> And I'm back...connection problems. Who are we on?
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, they could have someone blend a customized "scent" for them to wear.
<Lucas> Yes, it's a magically created being which is, during the ceremony at the moment of its birth (fully grown from a plant), bonded to another person.
<Fredrick> They could give each other their best life memories to share.
<Peg> Anne--pheromones?
<Robert> They are sewn into the honeymoon tent until they consummate it.
<@Jim> Sheila - you remind me of the chastity belt in Robin Hood Men in Tights.
<@SLViehl> Lucas, Becca -- we're trying to figure out an unusual bonding item to be used during a marriage ceremony.
<James> Like that, Fredrick!
<Nathan> weeellllllllllllllllllllll mebbe there could be chips implanted into said people.....and they uh....i dunno....{scratches head}
<Anne_Marble> Either their own pheromones or borrowed pheromones from strong animals.
<Fredrick> Or they could trade mother-in-laws and see which ones the worst
<Nathan> LOL
<BeccaS> Owch, Fredrick!
<Peg> ROFLMAO Fredrick
<Robert> They exchange the skulls of dead ancestors.
<Gerri> lol
<@SLViehl> Personal totems are good -- work off that direction
<BeccaS> A part of their body? (are they human?)
<Robert> Signifying the joining of the tribes. The oldest ones they can get.
<Lucas> Human.
<James> Their hearts, Becca? Literally...
<Fredrick> All right, unfair, I like my brother-in-law's mother. She's nice.
<BarGnat_> I was thinking of something like the magical item transferring their eyes into each other's heads
<Lucas> Or mostly anyway.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Lucas?
<Fredrick> They could give cigarettes.
<Nathan> I KNOW...I KNOW!!!
<Robert> Each one has a tooth pulled and given to the parents of the other.
<Anne_Marble> Actuallly smom tribes banned mothers-in-law because they feared the men would be lured away by the more experienced woman.
<@SLViehl> Lucas, I'd go with something that has to be used on the body, and later removed. Your choice of object and location.
<Fredrick> Ouch!
<Nathan> The people could be switched around for a day or two to see what it's like in the life of the otehr
<Fredrick> Toe rings. A bit cliche.
<Robert> The Underwear of Perpetual Cleanliness
<Nathan> or they could have a tattoo
<Peg> LOL Robert
<BeccaS> LOL, Robert.
<Nathan> or something
<kaelle> rofl, Robert
<Robert> Tattoos are really nice
<Labloch> lol
<Anne_Marble> But back then, the mothers-in-law weren't that much older!
<Fredrick> They could trade genders for a brief time, give a gender gift
<BarGnat_> I like the eye switching... they could see through each other's eyes as long as they were faithful
<@Jim> Robert: Bedsheets of perpetual cleanliness...
>James< Are you sure you don't want to pitch something to the group?
<Robert> Oooh useful, Jim!
<BeccaS> See through?
<BarGnat_> See with?
<kaelle> good one, Jim
<Labloch> eyes? wow, weird but might work
<Fredrick> Alimony payments in advance, in case the marriage doesn't work
<@Jim> I've actually used them in one of the planned sequels to Lord of Change...
<Labloch> imagine the prenupts for eye-switching
<Nathan> Or they could turn invisible to everybody except each other for a short period of time
<Fredrick> I like that, Nathan
<Robert> Nathan that could be done socially.
<Peg> Ok, now the youngster's threatening to up the rating of chat....
<Robert> No one speaks to either till three days afterr the wedding, allt hey have are each other in the world. That's cool.
<BarGnat_> (g)
<Nathan> No I'm not....
<Fredrick> What if they could conceive and have the baby during the wedding ceremony?
<Lucas> Eye switching is strange and very similar to an idea I had considered for something else, though that was an empathic situation where anyone could be bonded but if the pair wasn't in love the empathy extended only to negative feelings.
<BeccaS> Talk about starting a marriage!
<@Jim> Nah... turn 'em invis and you have to worry about bumping into people.
<Robert> Fredrick, that's one dang long wedding!
<@SLViehl> thanks all for some cool bonding items/ideas -- James is passing, Magic has scrammed, so Anne, you're up, and Robert, you're after Anne.
<Fredrick> It would probably be a long ceremony
<Nathan> Uh-oh...I think one of my crazy ideas is brilliant
<Lucas> This will give me lots of things to work with. Thanks everyone!
<Nathan> Yur Velcome
<Nathan> ving?
<Anne_Marble> Oh I'm up!
<Anne_Marble> Sorry
<Gerri> lol
<@SLViehl> Anne, got a question for us?
<Robert> <ari pokes Anne with his cold kitten nose>
<Anne_Marble> Lots of romance novels have what's called the "big misunderstanding." It can be well done -- but more often than not, it's silly. I know it's only natural that Wulf and Gorok will have arguments... But how will they do so without getting into Silly Big Misunderstanding territory? (Oh, and let's keep it clean, folks! <wink>) Or... should they just get along and annoy everyone?
<Fredrick> No pressure now
<Nathan> Vou vist vorgiven
<Robert> Anne - they are both guys.
<kaelle> I like annoying everyone else.
<BeccaS> Sometimes bickering can be more fun...what if it's like Much Ado About Nothing
<Nathan> maybe not
<BeccaS> Except that involved a misunderstanding, never mind.
<Robert> The Big Misunderstanding is a very hetero plot. Women are incomprehensible. They myssteriously expect us to understand.
<@SLViehl> I think Wulf and Gorok have enough differences between them to keep it lively without the "big misunderstanding"
<James> So long as the arguments are grounded in their character, I wouldn't have a problem.
<Labloch> As long as the issue's not trivial and not too drawn out
<Fredrick> Annoy their gay friends, but get along well with their straight ones.
<Peg> Anne--just don't let them keep blowing the misunderstanding out of proportion when any rational person would be saying "Look, you idiot, just SAY IT..."
<Robert> There are embedded real conflicts between their cultures, there is a certain amount of male bonding as friends elemental to the relationship.
<@SLViehl> The contrasts between them are the contention points -- magic, barbarism, force and pacifism
<Anne_Marble> Hee hee, I'm going to have to start charting which characters are what.
<Nathan> Okay...uh...no offense Anne, but don't mind if I ignore this question.
<Robert> They're guys. They will get to the point. If they still disagree their arguments will not go into mysterious stuff but be fairly intense.
<Peg> Good point, Robert.
<Fredrick> I have an idea. Write the idiot plot, then break it down and go directly against it.
<Peg> I wouldn't expect them to let a problem simmer unresolved for ages and ages.
<Gerri> I keep thinking of that episode in The Tick....where all the superheros around them thought that Tick and Arthur should be fighting...
<Anne_Marble> Good, they'll be more fun to write about than Diana Palmer heroes and heroines. They always fight over stupid things.
<Peg> One of them would bring it up.
<Robert> Their arguments will not be that hard for each other to understand, but when they disagree they will fight.
<Peg> LOL Gerri--that was a good one.
<Fredrick> Sometimes the people who are most in love fight the worst.
<Gerri> and they ended up arguing w/ their counterparts that th ey didn't have these problems, and they weren't about to develop them just to please everyone else....
<Lucas> Unless males in this world (or even just one or the other of their societies) have prohibitions against talking about things.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe their friends will be upset that they don't fight with each other.
<@SLViehl> Another contention point is how each reacts to a given situation -- they can fight about that, too.
<James> But no unreasonable grudges. Fight, acknowledge their differences and over it as quickly as possible.
<Robert> Yeah. Like James said.
<HughSider> Anne, how does honest disagreement figure in as a romance cliche, as opposed to "big misunderstanding?"
<@JimM> They know each other well -- know how to push each other's hot buttons.
<@SLViehl> Men tend to be more straightforward about problems, I think. I'm with James on this one.
<Robert> They probably agree on what issues are important. Even when they disagree on them. They will be working on learning to negotiate better.
<Fredrick> Not always, Shiela
<Fredrick> Sheila
<Anne_Marble> Big misunderstanding is like the plot where the guy thinks she's sleeping around because he sees her hug another guy. Then he finds out it's really her brother.
<James> But none of those, we have fought physically and are now strangely aroused, let us consummate our anger amid the wreckage things.
<Lucas> Men don't have to be anything. Men in Anne's story are what ever she says they are. That's something to keep in mind.
<@SLViehl> Disclaimer, Fredrick -- the men I know
<Robert> Some things that make women angry will probably not bug them.
<@JimM> Men can be evasive if they have a hidden agenda...
<Fredrick> Raging Bull had a lot of tension when it came to the marriage.
<Anne_Marble> Then the heroine always flounces off for 20 chapters instead of staying and yelling back.
<Robert> But if Gorok's culture says "men make the cheese" and Wulf's says "Men don't mkae cheese" they will have trouble.
<kaelle> There will be issues they can agree to disagree with, that their friends might think they should fight about.
<HughSider> I was wondering if it's cliche. What if you find something for them to fight about that is real, but they both feel strongly about?
<Fredrick> Couples can argue about the silliest things, like where the road map on a trip is located.
<Anne_Marble> I'll figure out what to do when I figure out what they should fight over. ;->
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Fredrick> And then turn a simple argument into an all our fiasco
<Robert> That first fight in a couple gay or straight starts to define how they solve disagreements. That's important - but it's not necessarily misunderstanding.
<Fredrick> our=out
<Robert> It can be flat out disagreement.
<@SLViehl> I'd go for differences over problem-solving approaches. They're very different men, they're going to handle problems with contrasting solutions.
<Lucas> Two people who actually disagree about things is much more interesting than the situations where it's just a "big misunderstanding" because then you don't get the "and they all woke up and it was just a dream" kind of endings.
<Robert> And it can be over personal habits. Felix and Oscar thing works.
<@SLViehl> good point, Robert
<James> You could play with the Big Misunderstanding -- set up a classic BM, then have the characters go, "Bugger it, let's do something more interesting..."
<Anne_Marble> Gorok wants to blow up the prison, Wulf doesn't.
<HughSider> Anyone else thinking of "Shockball" at this point?
<Robert> They can agree on all the big issues and be disgusted at each other's habits.
<Peg> Haven't read it yet, Hugh.
<Peg> It's on my shelf, waiting, though....
<Fredrick> Why doesn't Wulf want to blow it up?
<Nathan> Shockball...isn't that the 4th StarDoc book?
<kaelle> lol, Robert, that's my family!!
<Lucas> They can both want the same things but disagree about the methods, or each want different things but agree on how it should be done.
<Anne_Marble> He wants to preserve the artifacts.
<Fredrick> Could they move the artifacts, then blow it up?
<Nathan> And no hugh...I'm not...haven't read it
<Anne_Marble> And he has some buddies in the prison.
<Robert> Maybe a food Wulf likes is completely taboo to Gorok's people.
<Labloch> Sheila, just noticed the groupboard. I don't have any questions today.
<Fredrick> Oh, yeah, killing your mates might cause a marital spat or two
<Anne_Marble> "You're going to eat a bunny?!"
<@SLViehl> No problem, Sophie.
<Robert> And let's nto forget the perennial "Who cleaned the cat box?"
<Robert> this fight begins with the snowcat meowing.
<Nathan> lol Robert
<BeccaS> LOL, Robert.\
<Anne_Marble> "Stop leaving your dirty breechcloth on the floor!"
<Lucas> If it's a question raised only perennially, no wonder it's a problem...
<Labloch> lol
<BarGnat_> lol
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some great ideas -- Robert, you're up, then you all have to listen to me, lol
<kaelle> lol
<@JimM> Robert: the fight begins when the snowcat uses someone's bedclothes because his litterbox is too dirty.
<Robert> Okay... this is a wierd one. I'm having a slight morale problem at the moment. I would like ways to get myself going... oh jim that's so true.
<Lucas> I know the answer to Robert's question! Change the litter more often... Yargh...
<@SLViehl> as in motivation, Robert?
<Robert> when I have a novel rewrite and that's about all that's up ahead of me now, what the heck do I keep up my word count with? Two nonfic articles won't do it but I'm afraid to start a novel before BN class.
<Robert> As in motivation. As in having the energy to keep going.
<@JimM> Do some short stories?
<BeccaS> Maybe a short story idea yuo've wanted to try out?
<Peg> Robert--do you have any books that just make you say, "I wish I'd written that?"
<BeccaS> Whoops, same idea.
<@JimM> Compete with Zette.
<Labloch> take some time off?
<BeccaS> Try some genre you've never done before.
<James> Our outline novels for after the BN class.
<Fredrick> You could write down a list of ten future novels you might want to do.
<@JimM> gmta, Becca. (g)
<James> our = or
<@SLViehl> I'd do something completely different. Write in a genre you've never written in before. Short story first.
<Peg> Read a bunch of mythology, look for story ideas in there.
<@SLViehl> Becca's reading my mind tonight
<@JimM> Do some worldbuilding...
<Fredrick> Yes, Becca, great idea. Do one genre too much and you might end up getting stale.
<James> Mm, something different is a good idea... Refreshing.
<Peg> And mythology of cultures you know little about--say, Chinese or Egyptian?
<@JimM> write some scenes to help define your world building background.
<Fredrick> Have you ever written a screenplay or a stage play? Maybe that.
<Fredrick> Or some poems.
<Anne_Marble> Hey, worldbuilding worked for Tolkien...
<Labloch> Write a children's story...simple, seeking to delight
<@SLViehl> Put yourself in a period of history, Robert -- then change it.
<Fredrick> Or even greeting card verse Writing's writing.
<Nathan> LOL Anne
<BeccaS> I have to do that in Creative Writing this week, Labloch.
<Peg> Try just writing....
<@SLViehl> Imagine Robert as a scribe to the Pharoah, right before Moses showed up.
<kaelle> lol, Sheila
<Labloch> Becca, cuts the crap, doesn't it? (g)
<Robert> The problem with wandering too far out of what I write is that I'm multigenre and it drifts into things I probably wouldn't read.
<Robert> rofl Sheila
<Anne_Marble> Oh, yeah, a children's or YA story would be cool.
<Fredrick> Yeah, do some free writing, like Peg said.
<Peg> I'm thinking of (COOL image, Sheila) Natalie Goldberg/Julia Cameron's approach.
<Robert> Or drifting into the unsalable
<Labloch> Motivation...hm...write to different music
<Fredrick> Watch a bad movie, then write down how you would have done it better.
<Peg> Or, conversely, try writing the single dullest piece of fiction you know how.
<Anne_Marble> Write a children's fantasy.
<@SLViehl> AH is a good market everywhere these days, Robert. And you can have fun with it.
<Robert> AH?
<Peg> Scrape the serial numbers off something you hated and make it better.
<Peg> alternate History
<Fredrick> Or read a bad book.
<@SLViehl> Alternate History
<Robert> Hm. I've put that off a long time because it takes research vs. making it all up.
<Fredrick> Victorian horror
<@SLViehl> You can research on the internet
<BarGnat_> Write a really spooky gothic romance
<BeccaS> Is there some period you're already really familiar with, Robert?
<Robert> But that doesn't refresh my soul the way making it up does.
<Labloch> Read some jokes to cheer you up
<@SLViehl> I did almost all my AH research for Baen on the web.
<Lucas> A note on genre - Even if I don't read a given genre often, it's still useful to look at it from time to time simply because it's a different viewpoint and it might commonly deal with mechanisms/themes that aren't as common in my prefered reading material.
<Nathan> Whats AH?
<Anne_Marble> Leisure is publishing Gothic again...
<BeccaS> Hey, speaking of history, does anyone know any good resources on French feudalism? I have a paper due in a few weeks.
<Fredrick> Just take some time out.
<Labloch> (laughed myself silly at Maxim's daily joke site today)
<Robert> I'm looking at what to write to give me the energy to work on the rewrite, which takes will power.
<James> Once you've done minimal research, you could flip it into a fantasy world that's still recognizable, like Guy Gavriel Kay does.
<@SLViehl> AH is alternate history, Nathan
<Fredrick> Play video games. They sometimes help me.
<Robert> Ahhh now there's a thought.
<Fredrick> Go to the arcade and play Dance Dance Revolution.
<Peg> Solitaire. Lots of solitaire. LOL
<Robert> Do a little minimal research and then distort it way beyond recognition, make it my own and mess with it a lot.
<Anne_Marble> Play video games and then ask "What if the bad guys were sentient and not really all that bad?" ;->
<Fredrick> I love that game, even though I suck at it.
<Peg> That would do it, Robert.
<BeccaS> I think that's what I'm doing tomorrow, Fredrick. That games is addicting.
<HughSider> Robert, what do you enjoy writing most? Write just a candybar scene from that.
<BeccaS> (but it's on the way to get a Mother's Day present)
<James> That way no one can complain about historical errors
<@SLViehl> Gaming can give you ideas, too. I have a whole novel based on one game of chess.
<Jehane> anne: that would be the johnny series by terry pratchett
<Lucas> Anne - I like "Thief" because of that. On expert level, you aren't allowed to kill any of the human opponents.
<Robert> I enjoy doing over the top mythic fantasy with very weird stuff in them, someone called it magepunk
<Fredrick> Or you could play fighting games or first person shooters.
<Fredrick> They work off a lot of tension for me.
<Robert> I like doing bizarre cultures, I like throwing away every custom that bugs me in real life and then throwing human problems at not quite ideal situations.
<Nathan> Whats a candybar scene...a scene about a candy bar?
<James> Well, Robert, follow your bliss is always good advice.
<Anne_Marble> Has anyone done a computer game where you play the creatures the lone warrior in the first person shooter is trying to kill?
<BarGnat_> Starcraft! Brood War!
<Peg> Nathan--the scene you just can't wait to write.
<Peg> That's a candybar scene.
<Fredrick> Or just go to a park and watch people. Observe patterns and behavior.
<@SLViehl> Write a romance, Robert. That always cheers me up.
<Robert> Writing from normally badguy races is a candybar thing for me.
<Fredrick> You can get stories just by watching people interact.
<Nathan> somebody try writing a story based on Grand Turismo 2
<@SLViehl> true, Fredrick
<Peg> I'll have to try that one, Sheila...
<Anne_Marble> Write a futuristic Gothic romance. Talk about cross genre.
<Lucas> If I tried to play many first person shooter games all that would happen would be that I would get so bored (and nervous) that I'd have to write just because it was so much more fun.
<BarGnat_> A spooky one!
<Peg> Put on some music--something you don't normally listen to. Write where the music takes you.
<Sahara> Anne- I can't even begint o figure out how that would work!
<Robert> But would a romance written from the point of view of a dark byronic romance HERO make sense to any reader whatsoever?
<@SLViehl> Rewrite Jane Eyre -- but set it 2000 years in the future.
<Peg> Robert--if you do it right.
<James> Read a comedy western horror once, loved it to death.
<Peg> How about the weird, weird, West, Robert?
<Robert> I have one of those planned and not scheduled soon bc I want BN class first before doing it. Still working on its research.
<Nathan> write a Y/A Horror
<Peg> (Looking for something completely different)
<Anne_Marble> McCaffrey's "Restoree"?
<Robert> Okay I have two Westerns.
<Fredrick> Go talk to someone close, just sit down and talk.
<BarGnat_> oooooh. Loved Restoree
<Lucas> FPS's shake me up to much. "Bang! Bang! Aach, what was that? Oh no what do I do!?" That's why I write, so I don't have to dodge bullets in real time...
<Nathan> I'm sure that you could do it
<kaelle> Or you could keep a journal every day from your POV - just imagine that your life has an added twist and you are chronicling events as they happen to you, like in the books you write.
<Robert> BC one is a vampire western about Malcolm's youth being tricked by a Tlingit shaman. That's starting a planned book.
<Jehane> rewrite fairytales
<Peg> Tlingit? As in Alaskan?
<Anne_Marble> Oh, weird Westerns, didn't DC used to have a series of Weird Westerns? And Weird War stories, too? Maybe you can look at old mediocre comics and mine them for ideas.
<Robert> Yep
<Peg> Cool.
<HughSider> On a completely different tact, try making the rewrite itself more enjoyable. This is the approach I use with debugging - there's a real pleasure in getting something polished.
<Peg> Just remember it's pronounced KLINKit.
<Robert> He got the raven totem by being taught by a nearly atheistic native american shaman.
<@JimM> Fractured Fairy Tales...
<@SLViehl> time -- any last suggestions, comments for Robert?
<James> Vampire westerns, yum. A genre waiting to happen.
<Peg> Faerie Tale Theatre....
<Anne_Marble> There was a book called "The Cowboy and the Vampire"...
<BarGnat_> Read Krentz's synergy trilogy (think she wrote 'em under the Castle pen-name)
<Fredrick> A Fistful of Hemoglobin?
<@SLViehl> You're very witty, Robert -- I'd write something with humor. Make yourself laugh.
<Labloch> When all else fails, dig into that next book.
<Nathan> Look at a picture than write a short story based on that picture
<Jehane> lol fredrick
<Robert> Purr, thank you.
<Catherine/splodge> You can rewrite war with me, if you want Robert
<Catherine/splodge> I am also not enjoying rewriting my novel
<Nathan> Like say liberty leading the people, orwashington crossing the delaware, or somethin' like that
<Sahara> I'm trying to figure out how being a vampire would work in the Wild West. Lots of sun in the desert, not many places to be safe and sleep the day
<Lucas> I sometimes enjoy taking children's stories and rewriting portions of them (or making sequels) on an adult level. If you're good enough, by the time you're finished, I'd guess that very few people could even guess what you started with. It's interesting too, developing on latent themes.
<Catherine/splodge> Almost as much fun as word warring!
<BarGnat_> There must be something wrong with me.... I'm having great fun rewriting my book
<Fredrick> Look at Salvatori Dali's art--today's his birthday. Love his persistence of memory.
<Robert> So maybe I should just freewrite my favorite things till a character shows up.
<Labloch> Write twisted fairy tales
<@JimM> Sahara: Caves.
<Anne_Marble> Google looks cool today
<Peg> Robert--that should work.
<@JimM> Mines.
<Fredrick> Or listen to Mozart's Elvira Madigan.
<Peg> Sahara--going underground.
<@SLViehl> thanks all for good motivational ideas -- and now, a question from your moderator:
<Peg> (meaning be buried in the desert)
<Anne_Marble> Never mind, they changed it.
<Fredrick> A vampire carries an umbrella.
<Lucas> BarGnat - That's good. If you can have fun rewriting you're better off than some people.
<Fredrick> In the desert
<Sahara> Mines.... hmmmm.
<Labloch> go for it, Sheila
<Catherine/splodge> No, I don't think there's anything wrong with you Mary!
<Nathan> A vampire who loves Garlic
<Catherine/splodge> I should enjoy it, but its getting messy
<Nathan>
<Fredrick> A vampire who loves Gaelic
<Nathan> gaelic?
<Peg> <patiently waiting for Sheila's question>
<Fredrick> Old language
<@SLViehl> We're in our fifteen week of the Writer's Think Tank, and I think it's going great. However, I need feedback from you all -- how can I make this better for all of us? Throw out any ideas.
<Nathan> ahh
<Catherine/splodge> offer chocolate pudding?
<kaelle> oh, gee. LOL Catherine
<Peg> Make mine Butterscotch, Catherine.
<Fredrick> Make it longer. Two hours is too short.
<Lucas> Now come a lot of responses like "Ahh, err, umm...."
<Ari> Butterscotch
<Anne_Marble> Help me think of questions when I can't think of one? ;->
<Peg> Sheila, seriously.... aside from making it longer, I don't think there's much TO improve.
<@SLViehl> How much longer, Fredrick?
<Peg> It works fine as it is.
<HughSider> Well, I dropped by tonight to see how they worked, so I think I abstain.
<James> We probably have to acknowledge that Sheila needs some downtime, Fredrick
<BeccaS> I couldn't stay on longer than two hours. Someone else in the family would need it in the meantime.
<Gerri> works just fine for me.
<Fredrick> Three to four hours.
<Lucas> If it were any longer I might be in danger of actually falling asleep at the computer.
<Fredrick> True.
<BeccaS> Plus I have a short attention span.
<kaelle> This works pretty good as it is, I think
<Peg> Maybe three hours... Four is a bit much to ask every week.
<Catherine/splodge> I think its fine. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.
<@JimM> If you make it too long, it'll get to be too long, if you know what I mean.
<Fredrick> Three is good.
<Ari> It's great the way it is, hard to think of improvemetns.
<Lucas> It's already 11pm by the time it finishes for me as it is.
<BeccaS> Maybe have it be more like open hours? (although you need people around to spit out ideas)
<Nathan> Two and a half...thats usually how long we take anyway
<Gerri> maybe start earlier....
<Fredrick> Yeah, that's an idea.
<BarGnat_> The Think Tank is what hooked me on this site, Sheila... don't mess with perfection!
<@SLViehl> I can do a three hour session, but that's about as late as I can stay up on a Friday. Would two two-hour sessions a week be better?
<Gerri> instead of running late, is what I mean.
<Fredrick> And maybe entice a few more professional writers in here.
<Jehane> maybe have a second session
<Lucas> It's advantage is that it's a concentrated session. The chat room is usually open for this kind of activity, but it doesn't have the same concentrated energy as the weekly Think Tank sessions.
<Ari> That would be great!
<BeccaS> Maybe, Sheila, plus that would help people who are usually out Friday nights.
<@JimM> Fredrick: or make professional writers out of who's here.
<Jehane> the other session at a different time to allow for different timezones
<Peg> Erm--my game group just got here. Need to go.
<Fredrick> Yes, that's an idea.
<@SLViehl> Night Peg
<Ari> I agree with Jim ,that's pretty much what's happening.
<Jehane> bye peg
<kaelle> Bye Peg
<Anne_Marble> See ya Peg
<James> See you, Peg.
<Ari> Night Peg
<Labloch> two two hours or an earlier three works for me
<Peg> Sheila--it works fine as it is. Only making it longer or adding a second session cna help, IM(NS)HO
<BarGnat_> Night, Peggy
<@JimM> Bye Peg!
<Nathan> Bye Peggy
<BeccaS> Maybe if someone can't make it have them be able to post a question? (although not more than once or twice. To get feedback you gotta give feedback)
<Nathan> Expanding on Becca's idea: Maybe we could have one or two days a week where as becca said, we have open hours
<@JimM> I agree... I think two sessions would be better that one 3 or 4 hour session.
<Nathan> between certain times
<Ari> That was a good idea, Sheila
<Fredrick> Perhaps a multiple question option if other people waive their question.
<Lucas> I can't really think of any way to improve it. I'm plenty happy with only one session a week, but if folks want more... Well, I just can't gurantee I'd attend both of them.
<James> If we split into two, it might be possible to select a time allowing Europeans and others to join us?
<Catherine/splodge> I need to go, guys
<Lucas> Still, another at a different time could help some people attend who have a hard time otherwise.
<@SLViehl> I was thinking of a daytime session, perhaps on Sunday. Night Catherine
<Jehane> bye catherine
<BarGnat_> 'night, Catherine
<@JimM> Night Catherine!
<Nathan> Bye Splodge
<James> See you, Catherine.
<Catherine/splodge> night!
<Fredrick> That sounds good, Sheila.
<kaelle> If different times, I could only attend on weekends. Night Catherine
<Ari> That would be a perfect time, Sheila. Will catch other timezones
<@SLViehl> Or Saturday. Saturday would actually be better for me.
<@SLViehl> I was thinking of keeping it to the weekends since most of the community have day jobs.
<James> Sounds wise.
<Ari> That's a good idea. Even though I don't, the things where I have to do appts. and stuff are all weekdays.
<Gerri> I'm gonna wander off. thanks for the great session!
<Anne_Marble> Weeknds are cool
<Gerri> wave
<@Jim> That's what I did with the World Building Course, Sheila... 8am Saturdays for Asia-Australia-New Zealand.
<Jehane> bye gerri
<Ari> See you later Gerri
<James> Bye, Gerri.
<kaelle> Bye Gerri
<@SLViehl> And I know some of you need more time with the group than you're getting, so should I limit the number of questions per session? Give a fixed ten, fifteen minutes to each person?
<Nathan> Yeah...even I have a day job
<Lucas> Hey, who said that some people are out Friday night? Who goes out on any night? Does someone think I ever get out? Strange...
<BarGnat_> bye, Gerri
<@SLViehl> Night Gerri
<@Jim> Night Gerri!
<Labloch> bye ger
<Nathan> Bye Gerri
<BeccaS> Bye Gerri!
<BeccaS> Well, depending on how many people show up, Sheila.
<Fredrick> Perhaps we could have an extra grace period of a minute or two to allow people time to input questions.
<@Jim> lol Lucas!
<Nathan> LOL Lucas
<Labloch> Fixed slots, and maybe requeue if more time needed?
<@SLViehl> Sometimes we've had upward of 25 people show, so time can get short
<Fredrick> Yeah, that's a problem.
<Labloch> (like booksignings: get your three, if you want more, go to the back of the line)
<Ari> Anyone that gets dropped off for lack of time can go to front next time? Even if they're not first there?
<James> Longer times would be good, sometimes, when everyone's really firing on an idea.
<@SLViehl> And to be fair, I need to give everyone the same amount of time.
<Sahara> (I just started writing the vampire Western short... SCARY!)
<@SLViehl> Right now we're averaging 5 - 10 minutes per person.
<Ari> Cool, Sahara!
<Fredrick> Is there any way to copy question to the chat box?
<Nathan> Yeah..why don't they just presign the books then when the person comes up personalize the signature
<Nathan> yes, there is
<James> Possibly make it so people can have more time if they e-mail you ahead, otherwise, they get the shorter time?
<Nathan> I do it all the time
<Lucas> Some questions just don't take as long to answer as others but, I've noticed, that the more detailed the questions is, usually the more discussion it generates.
<@Jim> It's awkward, Fredrick.
<Fredrick> I have troubles doing it.
<@SLViehl> Would it help to post questions to the reminder thread ahead of session?
<Lucas> That could be that the more detailed ones really have more substance, or just that more is being communicated, I don't know which of course.
<Jehane> fredrick - use ctrl-c to copy, then ctrl-v to paste
<@SLViehl> (it's going to be hard to get everyone's questions up on the group board)
<Nathan> Ditto Jehane
<Ari> That might be cool, give people time to ruminate on them.
<Fredrick> Oh. Thanks Jehane.
<James> That would give regular participants thinking time, which would be useful.
<HughSider> Sheila, yes, a question preview would be good.
<Nathan> Hey, i just got an Idea
<@SLViehl> sock it to us, Nathan
<@Jim> You'd be erasing and reposting all the time... better to use the groupboard the way we do now.
<@SLViehl> I'd like to keep the roster up on the groupboard, so everyone knows where we are.
<Lucas> Now that might be a good idea. If the questions were posted to a message thread somewhere so that we could look them over prior to the Think Tank, that could work.
<BeccaS> Agreed, Sheila.
<Ari> But sometimes people don't think of them till it's their turn.
<Ari> So that is something I'd like to see as optional.
<Jehane> nathan?
<Lucas> Right, that's the thing. Not everyone know's what questions they'll be asking.
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, I've gone through three questions before picking one.
<BarGnat_> And sometimes, in brainstorming, you lose the spontaneity if you have too much time to study a question
<Lucas> It wouldn't be required, just an option.
<James> And if they're pre-posted, people interested in a particular question might drop in to help with it even if they normally wouldn't come to the Think Tank.
<@SLViehl> Okay, so to wrap this up -- I'll check into doing a second session, during a weekend day. We'll have an option of people posting to the reminder thread if they want to get their questions to us ahead of time.
<Nathan> Maybe when Holly gets back, we could petition her to make us a Think Tank board, where questions are asked 24/7, and answers are given 24/7, then when the person gets all the answers that they need, they could say that they've got all the answers that they need...this would be a supplement to the class, of course
<BeccaS> That would be cool, Nathan. Speaking of which, any word on Holly?
<Lucas> There are lots of boards for that already aren't there Nathan?
<Lucas> I mean, the world building board certainly does part of that.
<Ari> There is aboard like that Nathan: Writing Q &A
<@SLViehl> Holly is working hard and doing fine, btw. She misses everyone
<Fredrick> brb
<Nathan> I dunno...i only pay attention to 2 or 4 boards
<@Jim> Sheila - tell her we miss her, too.
<Lucas> And the Q&A, as Ari says.
<Nathan> oh.
<James> What Jim said.
<Nathan> Ditto Jim
<@SLViehl> Okay, let me sort through all these great ideas. I'll post a notice about future think tank changes this week, so watch the discussion board.
<@Jim> Will do!
<@SLViehl> Thank you all very much -- the Think Tank works because of you.
<Nathan> {jumps up in the air} WHOOHOOOO
<Ari> Purr - thank YOU for hosting it!
<Jehane> no, thank YOU sheila
<Labloch> thanks again Sheila!
<@SLViehl> and thanks for another wild and wonderful Friday night.
<Anne_Marble> Applause! Applause!
<BeccaS> Yay Sheila!
<Nathan> Thatnk you Sheila, for hosting this wonderful resource
<Anne_Marble> "Author! Author!" :->
<kaelle> Great session, everyone. Good writing and good night!
<BarGnat_> Thanks! Waves pompoms for Sheila
<@Jim> Anyone interested -- world building at 8am eastern tomorrow morning!
<@SLViehl> We are getting good, aren't we? (g)
<Nathan> Ditto Anne
<James> The Think Tank is one of the most remarkable things about the Forward Motion site, in my opinion.
<Anne_Marble> am?!
<Lucas> Ok. Don't hurt yourself trying to expand or improve it though! We'd hate for the Think Tank initiator to get a strained brain.
<Nathan> the first one
<Anne_Marble> In the morning?!
<Nathan> {Claps}
<Sahara> Brava and stuff!
<@Jim> Anne: Yes.
<Jehane> yeah worldbuilding - bring your weather and climate questions!
<@SLViehl> Thanks, Lucas, lol
<Anne_Marble> Euwwww.
<Nathan> What time Jim?
<Labloch> good night and happy writing everybody!
<@Jim> 8 am eastern time.
<HughSider> Thanks all. This was interesting - I'll try to be on time sometime.
<Nathan> oh..never mind
<BarGnat_> GTG, folks. Good night. Take care and good writing
<Ari> G'night BG
<Nathan> thats 5 my time
<Anne_Marble> Bye
<@Jim> Night everyone!
<Ari> Didn't Sophie have a question?
<Lucas> I had a good time tonight. Goodbye everyone.
<@SLViehl> Now I'm going to make a transcript and get it posted -- take care everyone, and have a good weekend. See you next week.
<Ari> Night Anne, Jim
<@Jim> Robert: she said to pass.
<Jehane> bye everyone, going over to chat
<Fredrick> I'm back.
<Sahara> Off to chat as well
<Anne_Marble> Hee hee, I hope not! Sophie?
<Ari> Oh cool. G'night all. I'm crawling off to chat myself.
<BeccaS> Goodnight all, it's been fun!
<BeccaS> Prom next week, I'll be elsewhere ^_^
<Ari> Purr, thanks Sheila, purr and thanks everyone!
<Lucas> This recenters me on important things sometimes.
<Fredrick> Good night, everybody.
<Nathan> Bye Sheila
<Ari> I'll be doing them monthly and the time seems to have stuck at midnight on the 3rd but midnight on a Saturday night is actually more what I had in mind. LIke first Sat. of the month not always the 3d
<Nathan> Bye eveybody
<James> Night all!
<Ari> Night all!
<Nathan> Bye all