Writer's Think Tank #16 -- 05/17/02

<@SLViehl> All right, welcome to the Writer's Think Tank. I'm your tardy moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl.
<Erik and Jasper> Jasper'll take over for me at the keyboard while I'm gone
<@SLViehl> Looks like Anne is our first victim, then magic will be after Anne. Anne, hand us a question.
<BJ Steeves> I don't know if I have a question yet, so that's no problem.
<@James> You're not that tardy...
<Nathan> Tardy?
<Anne_Marble> Typing it now. This time, I have a question about my romantic suspense novel, in limbo till I decide what to do about it. The plot is much like the classic Rebecca plot -- the heroine has to decide if she can trust the hero, whose wife died under mysterious circustances.
<Nathan> Rebecca plot?
<Fredrick> Daphne du Marnier book, I believe.
<Jehane> du maurier
<@SLViehl> Rebecca is a classic book, Nathan, ask Mom about it.
<Anne_Marble> The big question isn't the wife's death -- that turns out to be suicide -- but who drove her to suicide and who got her pregnant. In the original draft, the wife's brother got her pregnant. But I think he might be too obvious. Should I try another suspect?
<Fredrick> Thanks. I always get that name wrong. Haven't read the book yet, but I recall it from Ken Follett's The Key to Rebecca.
<@SLViehl> What size cast of characters have you got, Anne? Number wise?
<Robert> What if she wasn't a nice lady and had a lover and was guilty hence suicide? Not an innocent.
<BarGnat> Got another suspect around who's been hitting on wife #2?
<Anne_Marble> And should I made the heroine able to see ghosts, or skip that part? The story already has some twists on its own.
<Danielle> Depends, who are the other male characters?
<Fredrick> No, actually the brother might be one of the least likely suspects.
<Robert> I like the heroine seeing ghosts.
<Kay> And since it's a romance, the hero is, of course, blameless, right?
<BarGnat> wife #1 could have suicided because he dumped her
<Fredrick> The butler did it.
<@James> The incest taboo will still play in your favour -- people will hesitate to suspect him.
<Jehane> you could make it the brother, but make him seemtoo nice and blaming the husband for it
<Anne_Marble> She was an innocent, though -- that's one of my twists. The twist of the original Rebecca was that the husband turned out to hate her because she was evil. I wanted someone more sympathetic.
<Fredrick> Maybe someone did it with the brother's sperm.
<BarGnat> ahhh
<Anne_Marble> Let's see... her brother; her mother; Stanton; three young artists in the husband's program; heroine's brother...
<Fredrick> To implicate him.
<BarGnat> then have the pervert brother rape and impregnate her
<Robert> Okay, if she's sympathetic what if it's the village priest? Fuse it with Scarlet Letter and she dies of shame not knowing if that pregnancy's her husband's or this rapist...
<Fredrick> Is this a contemporary novel?
<Anne_Marble> The thing is, I portrayed the brother as very very troubled.
<@James> If she sees ghosts -- maybe possession could be an element. Impregnated by her dead father possessing her brother?
<Anne_Marble> This is contemporary
<Fredrick> Then you might have to make the brother saner and more credible.
<@SLViehl> She really can't be innocent and get pregnant by someone else unless she's unconscious during the conception, Anne.
<Jehane> the brother was possessed?
<Robert> Might make him a good red herring if the real nasty is someone who can keep up afront.
<Anne_Marble> She was unconscious during the conception.
<@SLViehl> Hmmm.
<Fredrick> What about DNA testing?
<@SLViehl> Mother's boyfriend. That's who'd I'd go with.
<Anne_Marble> She was troubled, a victim of abuse. So she let the guy have sex with her.
<Robert> If she was raped she's innocent, didn't want it. Ooh nice, Sheila
<@James> I figure if the father molested her, and she thought his death freed her, then he comes back, possesses the brother and goes on doing it, convinced there's no escape, she might kill herself.
<Kay> Give the 1st wife an older brother who had abused her during their childhood, and make him the villian.
<Anne_Marble> Oh. good idea. Give mother a boyfriend. Yes!
<BarGnat> She suicided while pregnant, not after the birth?
<Fredrick> What if it was a woman who raped her?
<Erik and Jasper> ??
<Kay> Then she wouldn't be pregnant.
<Anne_Marble> Then she wouldn't have gotten pregant.
<@SLViehl> You don't want to stack the deck with too many extremes, that's why I'd go with the mother's boyfriend.
<Erik and Jasper> unless... don't wanna get explicit, but i'm sure there are ways
<Nathan> Hi Blair
<Robert> She knows it's not her husband's kid by blood types and she does know who took advantage of her.
<Fredrick> Not necessarily. If she had the right tools, that is.
<@SLViehl> Heya Blair
<Anne_Marble> She died before giving birth. She knew it wasn't her husband's child because they had stopped having sex.
<Blair> 'ello
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, sort of like Presumed Innocent but one step further. Ick.
<Fredrick> I was also thinking about Presumed Innocent.
<@SLViehl> Mom's boyfriend can be marrying her to get at the suicide girl.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, and her mother was nutz, too. Classy but nutz. Faye Dunaway type.
<BarGnat> Then the perverted "kindly 'uncle', aka Mom's boyfriend" can be the guilty party
<Kay> The first wife's mother had a boyfriend, Anne?
<@SLViehl> Make him really nice and kindly and no one will suspect. Especially if you have a red herring with the brother and the husband.
<Anne_Marble> That would be cool, I could make him the only normal character on that side of the characters.
<Fredrick> Does it have to be a family member? Could it be a stranger?
<Anne_Marble> No, but he will now.
<@James> The mother's boyfriend seems more obvious than the brother, to me -- you'd need to red herring your brains out.
<Anne_Marble> She will now. (Ooh, there's a twist, Mom was reallly a man! <wink>)
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Fredrick> Anne
<Kay> If he's kindly enough and well enought thought of, that can be done. Esp. if others have troubled histories.
<@James> So it's a reverse Rebecca with a Psycho twist
<Anne_Marble> That's true, I could always make the mother's boyfriend nice but too charming, and then have the brother be the creep.
<Erik and Jasper> what profession is the uncle guy in/
<@SLViehl> Or Mom's best friend is a man disguised as a woman. Wait, drifting off into extreme territory again...
<@SLViehl> That would be pretty twisted, tho.
<Anne_Marble> I don't know yet, I haven't created him yet. :-> Probably not an artist, because she hated artists. Her perverted husband was an artist.
<Fredrick> I think it would be harder to fool readers nowadays.
<@SLViehl> A nice church lady on the outside, a lech in the inside...
<Fredrick> Borgiaesque
<Erik and Jasper> anne: Give him a really professional and upstanding position...
<BarGnat> If the husband and brother suspect each other drastically enough, the red herrings should work
<Fredrick> Community leader.
<Anne_Marble> Artist and writer are out. ;->
<BarGnat> Make it the kindly "uncle" b.f.
<Danielle> Don't you always suspect the upstanding ones, though?
<Erik and Jasper> lol anne
<Erik and Jasper> something in a position of leadership
<Fredrick> What if the brother tried to help the sister by impregnating her?
<Erik and Jasper> danielle: not if they're sincere
<@SLViehl> You mean (gasp) we're not respectable???
<@SLViehl> lol
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Anne_Marble> The brother spent most of the book accusing the hero. That was fun to write.
<Kay> One of the kindliest old men I met when i first came to town turned out to be an abuser of women. He was related to a judge, and it took a lot of evidence for the community to realize what was really going on.
<Fredrick> If you put on your finery, sure.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Robert> It looks good. Since you first planned the brother, he's a good candidate for 'crazy but it's not him'
<Kay> i agree
<Fredrick> Relatives are often prime suspects, so you may want to go outside the family.
<@SLViehl> I seem to remember a semi-famous jazz musician guy was discovered after his death to be a woman. In the last ten years or so. He/she pulled off the ruse for most of his/her life. I like that, or the mother's boyfriend being a nice upstanding guy.
<Erik and Jasper> aye, and a possible scapegoat.
<BJ Steeves> The butler did it!
<@James> What if the pregnancy was never real: her imagination leading to years of terrible consequences and suspicion.
<Erik and Jasper> lol bj
<Anne_Marble> And the brother looks like Leonardo DiCaprio. ;-> Even better, the hero looks like a young Glenn Gould.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, James, you're wicked. ;->
<Fredrick> Hysterical pregnancy, James?
<@SLViehl> Oh, James, you fiend
<Jehane> there was a doctor during one of the word wars who was a woman, only discovered after death
<@James> Or a Queen Maryesque abdominal tumour.
<@SLViehl> There are medical conditions that mimick pregnancy....
<Fredrick> Word wars?
<Anne_Marble> Elizabeth Barry?
<Anne_Marble> Our word wars took their first casualty! ;->
<BarGnat> (g)
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for your suggestions -- Magic, you're up, Erik, you'll be after magic
<magicalbookworm> okay, short question: How evil does the Villan have to be?
<Erik and Jasper> ok
<@SLViehl> What's your genre, magic?
<magicalbookworm> fantasy
<Fredrick> How evil does he or she have to be for what specifically?
<Anne_Marble> That depends on the story. ;-> I've read books where the villain became the hero in the next book. Those are often cool.
<Robert> Depends on what you're writing. It can go all the way to homeric, two sympathetic heroes in inevitable tragic conflict.
<magicalbookworm> the villian is a he
<@James> He doesn't need to be evil at all, just certain he's right, certain enough he'll do anything necessary to get what he wants.
<Fredrick> What is the villian's purpose?
<Nathan> How evil do you want him/her to be?
<@SLViehl> I like tragic villains as much as evil ones. More so, 'cause they get to me
<Fredrick> Does he want to conquer the world or take revenge for his lost wife?
<Anne_Marble> Most people don't think of themselves as evil, even if they are. They believe they're right.
<magicalbookworm> revenage mainly... stopping the world he lives in from regaining it's magic again
<Sarah> My favourites are the villains who MIGHT have been heroes, had certain things in their lives gone differently.
<@SLViehl> so a righteous villain, perhaps?
<Danielle> There's a good list of a whole spectrum of evil behaviour on an earlier think tank, from annoying to demonic
<Kay> A good person can act with excellent intentions on the best information and still cause evil consequences. The villian doesn't have to be EVIL at all. He just has to be wrong, mistaken about something crucial.
<Fredrick> Some people know they are evil and relish it.
<Labloch> hypocritical baddies work well as evil evil dudes
<Jehane> oh yes, sarah
<@SLViehl> good note, Danielle
<Erik and Jasper> kay: or he could be the right one, and the hero is mistaken... that'd be an interesting twist
<Erik and Jasper> dont see many of those
<Anne_Marble> Well I guess my ex-coworker who was charged with murder might have known he was evil. :-<
<Kay> possible
<Fredrick> Like Michael Madsen's character in Reservoir Dogs.
<Fredrick> He was evil.
<@James> He sounds like someone who needn't be evil, MBW. Maybe a little obsessive, a little unable to understand the consequences of his actions.
<Nathan> I don't know if this has anything to do with the question, but I've read books wher the villian was the hero
<Nathan> wher=where
<Fredrick> And he liked torture. Remembering the ear cutting scene.
<Danielle> mbw, what's his motivation?
<Fredrick> Ugh.
<Robert> Hypocritical baddies are evil to me.
<magicalbookworm> well, the villain i have is not very nice, and will go to great lenghts to get what he wants. yet won't do the smpile thing to get the magic he needs from the young girl he has...
<Fredrick> What if the villain is less evil than the protagonist?
<BarGnat> But sometimes it's good to give even the most evil villain one soft spot
<magicalbookworm> the young girl is the key to retrun the magic to the world.
<Danielle> Villains are like heroes - a mix of good and bad.
<Fredrick> Or less willing to commit immoral acts, but his cowardice makes him worse.
<Kay> I agree with BG. If you make the villian totally evil, then he becomes a cardboard cutout and not very interesting.
<Fredrick> Or you could have two villians and no hero, just one is less evil.
<Sarah> Ditto BG and Kay. Crispin Sabir.
<@SLViehl> Have you ever met a super religious person who is blind to everyone else's beliefs, but isn't necessarily a bad person by definition? That's what this villain reminds me of.
<Fredrick> It might help to think in terms of protagonist/antagonist instead of hero/villain.
<@SLViehl> Jehovah Witnesses tend to be like that (no offense to anyone of that persuasion, btw)
<Erik and Jasper> good call sheila
<Nathan> Frederick: Whats the difference?
<Danielle> It makes an interesting read, when you hate the villain mostly and then sometimes find them just a touch sympathetic
<Fredrick> Pro + ant don't automatically imply evil or good.
<Kay> Yes, and those people are evil in that they are willing to coerce others and all the creepier because THEY believe in their Goodness -- they're the ones i hate the most.
<@SLViehl> good point, Fredrick -- not evil, just opposition
<Anne_Marble> Gnip Gnop?
<BarGnat> "Good" people, who are too positive they're in the right, can be the cause of many evil results
<Fredrick> Like in my story, A pressing Matter, both pro + ant are good men, have families they love
<Kay> YES, BG, YES
<Nathan> I've noticed that a few villians have a soft spot...
<Danielle> People who want to be heroes can make good villains.
<Fredrick> Hero + villian may work for Star Wars, but it doesn't work for stories where the moral lines blur.
<@SLViehl> Are we helping, magic, or just muddying the waters?
<magicalbookworm> oh this is heloping
<magicalbookworm> err helping
<Fredrick> "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
<BarGnat> Heloping sounds like a good word. Glad you came up with it, Magical
<magicalbookworm> maybe he doesn't have to be as evil as i thought he had to be..
<@SLViehl> It's important not to create a two-dimensional villain, so thinking in terms of this character as an "antagonist" as Fredrick says is great.
<@James> As someone else said, as it can go either way, this one may come down to what would you enjoy writing? Stone cold evil, or flawed person with good intentions?
<Kay> I agree
<Nathan> {walks over to some mud, picks it up, walks over to nice clear lake and thriws mud in}
<@SLViehl> Two-dimensional villains are evil, evil, and more evil. No relief.
<Nathan> thriws=throws
<@SLViehl> lol Nathan
<Nathan> One of my villians is a failed comedian..:D
<Robert> Yeah, the evilest one I know had some sympathetic traits. Hannibal Lecter had good lines and good taste in music and a brain.
<Sarah> Moustache-twirling evil.... like that guy who was thrown into Ever After .
<@James> So that's what happened to Roseanne!
<magicalbookworm> he doesn't mind messing with other people... and so on, but he does care a lot of the son he has, and the girl he has taken.
<@SLViehl> Hannibal Lecter (shudder)
<Erik and Jasper> robert: good taste in people, too
<Erik and Jasper> huhu
<Fredrick> Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay has a great antagonist named Brandin.
<Nathan> Hannibal Lecter?whos he?
<@James> Cannibal psycho from Silence of the Lambs.
<Robert> Villain in Silence of the Lambs, thriller. Loved book and movie.
<Jehane> lol erik
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> A very bad villain, Nathan, from some Thomas Harris books. Don't read them, they'll give you nightmares.
<Erik and Jasper> excellent movie, i wanna read the book
<Nathan> I think I've heard of that
<Nathan> Roger that, cap'n
<Erik and Jasper> i love nightmares they give me ideas
<Nathan> lol Eric
<BJ Steeves> And insomnia.
<@James> Anthony Hopkins was astonishing in the movie. Can't see him the same way ever since.
<@SLViehl> If your villain is a good father, and good surrogate father to the girl with the magic, that will lend depth to him as a charcter, magic.
<Robert> Erik - the book's better! Much deeper characterization
<BarGnat> I envy people who can remember their dreams
<Erik and Jasper> i don't sleep much anyway hehe
<Fredrick> Or a character who does bad things for good and even contradictory reasons.
<Nathan> Of cousre, the worst nightmere I've ever had, to my recollection, is oe wher I was walking around, and tripped over a snake
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Magic?
<@SLViehl> I think you're on the right track with having your villain show different sides. I wouldn't try to dye him completely black.
<Robert> Do what feels right to you on the evil scale, just keep a balance where antagonist has more advantages than protagonist.
<Fredrick> But if your story is simpler, you may not want complex characters.
<magicalbookworm> thanks everyone
<Fredrick> They could end up making the story longer and more confusing than it needs to be.
<@James> Books are long. Work out how you'd enjoy the character being, then find a way to make it work.
<Nathan> You're welcome
<Erik and Jasper> np mbw
<Erik and Jasper> hope we helped
<magicalbookworm> i'm just glad that he doesn't have to be eviler
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for some terrific insight -- and I'd check out the other TT transcript about villains, magic, if you get a chance. Erik, you're up, Robert, you'll be after Erik.
<BJ Steeves> The butler did it!
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Erik and Jasper> ok: this one is kinda long: I hope it doesn't get truncated...
<Nathan> lol BJ
<Erik and Jasper> The MC of my story is coming out of a place he's lived in all his life (an underground citadel) and into the world, in the middle of a forest. He's never seen trees, sky, stars, never felt wind, etc. I want to add lots of emotion and fear and wonder, but I don't know how to do that. Any ideas?
<Erik and Jasper> (phew)
<Fredrick> Heart pounding. Nervous tics.
<Robert> You were doing a good job in the chat. Everything that's unfamiliar. Sky, stars, mud, space without walls...
<BarGnat> Have the agoraphobia hit him first
<Erik and Jasper> more like sensory overload i think
<@SLViehl> Check out case studies on agoraphobics -- he'd probably have the same initial symptoms as one of their panic attacks.
<Jehane> has he heard of these things (trees, etc) before?
<Fredrick> Describe his internal situation. Blood pounding in his eardrums.
<Danielle> I read a book where the sudden sight of the world, like that, caused extreme fear and hatred at first
<@James> Short sentences. Everything's new, everything's distracting, he's seeing everything at once, he's confused.
<Fredrick> Use a stream of consciousness thought process.
<@SLViehl> Oh, geez, there's an excellent book by Silverberg and Asimov where this world that has never experienced night suddenly experiences it for the first time in millenia.
<Fredrick> Very disjointed.
<Erik and Jasper> he's heard stories and legends of things like trees and such...
<Robert> Describe things not by their labels but in terms of similar things experienced underground. The ceiling infinitely far away. Too many stars...
<Danielle> Compare what he's seeing to things he's familiar with already.
<Danielle> lol Robert
<@James> Nightfall, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> Nightfall, I believe the title is.
<@SLViehl> Thanks James
<BJ Steeves> Is the MC an introvert, extrovert, curious...It will make a difference on how he reacts to the situation.
<@James> Snap!
<Erik and Jasper> I'll have to look at that
<Fredrick> Fear can be very powerful.
<Kaelle> Noises. What is he hearing?
<Robert> He might love it too. Some people are in love with what's different.
<Erik and Jasper> My MC is an overconfident kinda guy. He's never really been in a situation where he's felt fear...
<Fredrick> Can he feel fear?
<Danielle> Is there anyone else with him at the time? That might make a difference too.
<Erik and Jasper> "Afraid? I'm not afraid!"
<@SLViehl> Culture shock in various other situations can help, too -- first contact with outsiders, the hostility and fear reactions
<Erik and Jasper> sure he can fredrick, everyone can
<Robert> Instead of fear it might be overwhelming excitement wtih fear as soon as something in it hurts him.
<BarGnat> Sheila's suggestion about the agoraphobic case studies is extremely good, Erik
<Erik and Jasper> ok
<Fredrick> Or it could be a mixture of emotions.
<BarGnat> That would have to be the first reaction ANYONE would have in that situation
<Fredrick> No, not everyone can feel fear. A sociopath might respond to a situation without fear.
<Labloch> Or he could pretend to take everything in stride, pre-sensory overload, and then collapse, sort of
<@SLViehl> I know how I felt the first time I saw a mountain, after living below sea level all my life. Freaked me out.
<@James> Maybe it would be best to mix his emergence with action, so there's not a flood of description. He's attacked coming out. New details are then stirred into the action.
<@SLViehl> I kept expecting it to fall on me. Seriously.
<Robert> And someone totally wrapped in their excitement about that might feel no fear because the adrenalin reads as thrill.
<Danielle> It might make a difference if he'd had an y kind of forewarning - pictures, movies etc. of the outside.
<Fredrick> Start laughing and (or) crying.
<Fredrick> Remember the Matrix when Keanu first realizes the Matrix isn't reality. Good reaction there, I thought.
<Erik and Jasper> in other words, less description, short sentances, action, alarm thoughts, things like that?
<@SLViehl> Excellent reference, Fredrick
<Erik and Jasper> alarming* thoughts
<BarGnat> And don't forget to throw in a few sentence fragments, as well.
<Danielle> Pick a few crucial details as he tries to focus on specifics, maybe.
<BJ Steeves> Impulses on what he sees, hears, feels, that kind of thing.
<Fredrick> Thanks, Sheila.
<Erik and Jasper> it's going to be nighttime when he emerges, so maybe the sky itself could be a focal point?
<Danielle> The way when you're about to faint you might end up with a close examination of a square of floor.
<Annie_Oakley> Gah.
<Fredrick> Vetigo.
<Fredrick> I mean vertigo.
<Erik and Jasper> hehe u ok anne?
<BarGnat> Yes, Fredrick!
<Sarah> Yeah, radically varying sentence length can up the sense of confusion and displacement.
<Fredrick> One word paragraphs.
<Robert> Even if he knew about stars there's a difference between a picture of afew and the sky way out in the country without light pollution.
<@James> At night, noise would be significant. No way of seeing the source. Animal sounds, wind in trees sounds, insect sounds, all new, all without source.
<@SLViehl> Yeah, I think it would be a little like being on a boat for the first time, an assault on the equilibrium -- all familiar points of reference being absent
<Annie_Oakley> Yes, but I just throttled my Internet connection.
<Danielle> Does he even know the names for what he's seeing? He may not have the vocabulary.
<Erik and Jasper> ending with him passing out would be an idea...
<Fredrick> Imaging being blind all your life, then seeing for the first time. How would you feel?
<BarGnat> Waiting for the sky/stars/whatever to fall on him
<Erik and Jasper> i have no idea, fredrick... hehe
<Fredrick> But you're a writer. Imagine it.
<Robert> Not seeing the sky for stars...
<Erik and Jasper> bg: clouds falling, trees attacking him with their huge arms...
<Lucas> Hi everyone, I finally remembered about this. I think my brain went into low-speed mode sometime around six or seven o' clock, and didn't rev back up until I finished supper a few minutes ago.
<@SLViehl> Patients with restored vision regularly experience severe disorientation -- they are dependent on other senses, them wham.
<BarGnat> Prone on the ground, clutching at something solid, not in fear but in disbelieving shock
<Fredrick> Or like when you wake up for the first time and you've lost all sense of who and where you are.
<Danielle> No way to judge depth, with such unimaginable distances.
<BJ Steeves> The Dave Bowman reaction...Oh my God..It's full of stars!?!
<@SLViehl> Hiya Lucas, dive in.
<Danielle> hi Lucas
<Fredrick> Sometimes you wake up from a bad dream or you feel like you're falling in your sleep.
<@James> You'd see everything in familiar terms, I'm guessing. As he's from undeground, "the vault of the heavens," "corridors between the trees," is you see what I mean.
<Fredrick> Scary.
<Robert> I hit my spacers a lot with that if they're spaceborn, plaentside they freak cause there's no hull!
<@SLViehl> there you go, Robert.
<Fredrick> Sarah Zettel did that in Reclamation.
<Annie_Oakley> You might want to read up on what happens to people who get corneal transplants. Or watch the movie "Blink". ;-> Or the other one along those lines.
<Erik and Jasper> i see what you mean, james. everything would be colored to an underground life, all his experiences were like that, then suddenly he's out in a place with no ceiling...
<Danielle> The irregularity would be confusing when you tried to find your way - 'you mean I can walk in any direction?'
<Lucas> Fredrick - I'd imagine that one of the sources for the term "falling" asleep, the feeling of falling that sometimes occurs just as one is drifting off.
<Fredrick> Except the other way around. Planet to space shock.
<Fredrick> It's scary when you feel like you're falling.
<Erik and Jasper> oh man, he'd get so lost...
<Robert> Logically he wouldn't expect hallways and room numbers but a cmplete absence of signs and marked paths would also be scary.
<Fredrick> You can't objectify the feeling.
<Danielle> I'm in a BIG room!
<@SLViehl> He'd definitely feel diminished in size, I think.
<Jehane> maybe read about the experiences of astronauts on spacewalk
<@James> Yes, Erik, he'd be looking for the familiar, and he'd try to truncate what he sees to fit his experience.
<Fredrick> If I awoke in a new world, I'd probably try to look for something familiar.
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Erik?
<Sarah> Ooh, and don't forget he'd be coming up against a LOT of faunae he's never seen before.
<Fredrick> A landmark of some kind.
<Robert> From books he'd think of roads as obvious features but 500 years of wasteland, what roads?
<Fredrick> Roman roads.
<Erik and Jasper> exactly, no roads...
<Robert> He'd be scared of not finding his way back if he left the entrance
<Lucas> Depending on how much light there is underground, he might have some experience with distances / caverns that are large enough so that he can't see across them, providing some basis for the perceptual size of the world above.
<Erik and Jasper> in fact the area he's in used to be the center of the old city...
<@SLViehl> I think you've gotten some great ideas, here, Erik -- definitely run with them
<Erik and Jasper> I will! Thanks everyone! LOTS of great stuff!
<Sarah> Flying insects would scare the hell out of me if I'd never seen them before... (heck, they do now)
<Robert> Being out of sight of any habitation is a humbling experinece too
<Nathan> Yer velcome...
<Erik and Jasper>
<Fredrick> The forest at night can be very scary.
<Danielle> No real darkness in the wilderness, compared to a dark room, perhaps?
<Erik and Jasper> real quick: I have another question, if there's time at the end.
<Robert> Bugs live where people do, but have they forgotten birds? Or are birds like giant flying bugs?
<Blair> depending on how much light was underground, the sun may cause temp. blindness
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all, the gears were really whirling with that one. Robert, you're up, then Fredrick, you're after Robert.
<Fredrick> Is he naked?
<@SLViehl> Okay, Erik, I'll add you to the end.
<Annie_Oakley> I know someone who came from Alberta and moved to Maryland. She was freaked out because she could hear so many bugs outside the house.
<Fredrick> That would make him feel even more vulnerable.
<Erik and Jasper> he's prepared as much as he can be
<Erik and Jasper> thanks a lot sheila
<Robert> I'm doing a novelette or something off the exercise with super heroes.
<Nathan> cool
<Robert> I'm world building. What would give me a world with super heroes, super villains, supernatural beings and aliens, that is not copyright and hasn't been done?
<BJ Steeves> Not another Spiderman!
<Fredrick> Viral and bacterial superheroes.
<Robert> No, they're Three Dead Punks and a Telepath
<Fredrick> Oops. Sorry.
<@James> Making it a created reality within a broader, unseen "real" reality.
<Annie_Oakley> Nanotechnology
<Robert> Wild Cards series used a virus to cause super powers and didn't have magic.
<Fredrick> Like X-men?
<Erik and Jasper> robert: you're looking for a new take on the whole super powers thing? or just a setting?
<Danielle> Do you want the setting to be non-traditional? That rules out big gothic cities...
<Labloch> a daughter universe/parallel world
<Fredrick> Xavier was in a wheelchair.
<Jehane> is it a completely new world, or a version of our own?
<Nathan> Well...you could have a big red sun....
<Labloch> nanotechnology that mimics magic
<Sarah> Ooh, like the nanotechnology.
<Robert> Yep, though not ruling out big gothic cities. I want both magic and super science but enough of a normal Earth that there's lots of typical spear carrying unpowered normals.
<@SLViehl> A space station above a more normal world (other than earth)
<Fredrick> What about a world made out of living insects?
<Kaelle> Genetic engineering?
<Robert> Magic's not mimicked, I do want some real magic going on interacting badly with the mutagen.
<Fredrick> Beetleterra.
<@James> A symbiotic thing: spirits with strange, random powers bond to random individuals, effectively becoming their "costumes," and making them into superheroes or villains.
<@SLViehl> A water world. An ice world. A desert world.
<Labloch> how about a planet/station that lets people from parallel universes interact?
<Danielle> Nice idea, James
<@SLViehl> Oooh, nice one, Sophie
<Fredrick> Like that, Labloch.
<Blair> James... thats what Venom & Carnage are in Spiderman
<Annie_Oakley> Hive mind superheroes. "The Swarm of Gnats."
<Fredrick> Do these superheroes wear costumes?
<Robert> Parallel universes interacting is a good way to get aliens in, including those in lost space ships.
<Labloch> Magic could be a form of energy transfer, so scientifically acceptible but still very much magic
<Robert> "THEY do. These are just our stage clothes. Like any other band!!"
<Fredrick> LOL
<Danielle> Interaction of different time periods, including a magical past and a technological future?
<Fredrick> So they are rock stars then?
<BJ Steeves> I can just see it, the 3 dead punks bash dancing and bolts of energy coming out of their colered hair spikes.
<Lucas> You're looking for something that will alter the superhero mechanics? Hmm...
<Robert> My protagonists are musicians and undead.
<Jehane> the superheroes are four-dimensional, while the ordinary people are only three-dimensional
<Fredrick> What about superheroes during the Russian Revolution?
<@SLViehl> The lowest caste in an alien society are the superheroes. The sanitation workers of their world.
<@James> Darn. I don't recognize them as villains: but I dropped out of Spiderman awhile back. This is where you tell me they were in issue #1 and I kill myself.
<Annie_Oakley> Oooh, that's cool. Flatland!
<Labloch> heehee, parallel universes rock! Don't see Jet Li's The One, btw. Awful movie, great moves.
<Fredrick> I like that, Sheila.
<Labloch> What do you want your protags to do/confront, Robert?
<@SLViehl> If you flip the hero-worship, Robert, you can really play with this idea.
<Fredrick> What if the superheroes suffer from schizophrenia?
<Jehane> yeah, loved flatland, anne
<Robert> Situation: these guys all wound up with something in common and the world expects them to be Crmiefighters or Villains and they just want to have a band.
<Fredrick> Superheroes on worman's comp.
<Fredrick> workman's comp
<@SLViehl> Imagine the parents of a nice alien teen girl. "You are NOT going out with that boy. He has X-Ray vision, for God's sake!"
<Danielle> Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kids!
<Labloch> lol sheila
<Lucas> I perfer worman's comp, that sounds better. Like Worm-Man's Compensation.
<Fredrick> Wormman's comp
<@SLViehl> Lots of apples?
<Robert> Yes! Sheila you've got the feel of it. They're second wave after the world has got used to super heroes and the super heroes formed an Agency that's in somew ays worse than the super villains' attempts at taking over.
<Annie_Oakley> Cool, can we come up with band names? ;->
<Labloch> So they have to juggle superstardom (or struggling musiciandom) with fighting crime...at least by authority figures?
<Fredrick> What if they received their superpowers out of a vending machine?
<Fredrick> Like a coke.
<Danielle> lol Fredrick
<@SLViehl> Superheroes being treated like the severely handicapped, or the elderly.
<Labloch> "This Coke tastes funny...here, try some."
<Fredrick> Insert 25 cents, get heat vision.
<Robert> Yes, but also hit with this "you have to join or you're a villain" thing. And all the kids want is a life, theirs.
<Kay> No, Mercedes Lackey already did that.
<Fredrick> What, the vending machine, Kay?
<Sarah> What if they get superpowers by slipping through an interdimensional gate and getting put back together not-quite-right.
<Robert> I have their origins worked out, all four of them.
<Erik and Jasper> gah, sorry bout that, people came over
<Annie_Oakley> Anybody here read "Watchmen"? ;->
<Lucas> They don't want anything to do with being superheroes, or do they? I guess it would make a great publicity gimmick for their band, but they don't want to join some association.
<Fredrick> Yes, I read Watchmen.
<Annie_Oakley> Oooh, like the transporter accidents on Star Trek!
<Kay> Not a vending machine, but drugs at a party -- here eat some of this it's good. boom = emotinal vampires
<Fredrick> It was good.
<Robert> Origins have to vary, theirs varied, what they have in common is they like the idea of the band and similar musical styles.
<Robert> The telepathic girl singer is actually the one pulling it together, she's like Tori Amos, serious differences with Juilliard.
<Fredrick> Or Alanis Morisette.
<Fredrick> What if they only had powers while she sang?
<Lucas> They want something, to be left alone. Are their powers such that this is particularly hard for them, more so than others, or do all human+ people recieve this kind of attention?
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<Robert> Or Alanis Morrisette. She liked the guys and they play well and take her music seriously. She gave them a direction when they were just bored.
<Annie_Oakley> Maybe their music gives them superpowers? Like bards? (Marvel's Dazzler got her powers from sound and used to play in nightclubs or something)
<Fredrick> It's like Rain!
<magicalbookworm> well, must good... bye everyone. thanks again
<@SLViehl> I'd do something that takes away from the hero-worship usually afforded superheroes. I like the flip, I think you could have fun with it, Robert.
<Labloch> How about having the dudes have to track down some people who are also superpowered but took the path they didn't, and became villains?
<@SLViehl> Night magic
<Annie_Oakley> Bye magic
<Erik and Jasper> nite MBW
<@James> See you, MBW
<Fredrick> Maybe the more disabled they become, the more power they get.
<Nathan> By MBW, May the muse be with you
<Danielle> see ya mbw
<Robert> Night magic!
<BarGnat> night, mbw
<Sarah> Bye mbw!
<Erik and Jasper> lol nathan
<Nathan> :D
<BJ Steeves> Good Night MBW
<Annie_Oakley> Wow, we've become Van Morrison! ;->
<Robert> They have excess powers that are meaningless to them if they don't get in fights with powerful villains.
<Nathan> ping
<Kay> Actually, Frederick, i like that. the greater the APPARENT DIS ability, the greater the EXTRA ability. there's a sort of justice, a symmetry to it
<Jehane> bye magic
<Fredrick> What if superheroes were treated like lepers?
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for some terrific ideas. Fredrick, do you mind if we take five minute break before we get to you?
<Robert> And what they want is recognition for their music.
<labloch> hmm, retractable powers...
<Lucas> What if the source of their biggest ability is getting negative reviews... The better they play, the weaker they become and the less interested the super hero agency is in them.
<Fredrick> Sure, that's fine.
<@SLViehl> Okay, take five everyone. (off to get tea)
<Fredrick> Yes, Lucas. Ebert could give them power or take it away
<Annie_Oakley> Maybe they only have their powers when they're touching. Like the annoying alien twins on Superfriends. And if they get in fights, they can't do anything.
<Robert> No, their powers are sort of constant.
<Fredrick> Wonder Twin powers activate!
<Danielle> brb, tea needed
<Robert> The biggest is the three guys can't get killed cause they're already dead.
<Fredrick> I love that!
<Jehane> i liked the wonder twins
<James> Also brb, for a beverage...
<Lucas> Can they get chopped up into pieces and put in little boxes?
<Jehane> brb...getting lunch...
<Blair> Maybe they lose their powers if they become live again
<Annie_Oakley> I'm weird, they were neat but I liked the human kids that came before them.
<Robert> The zombie guy would regenerate. But it would NOT feel good and be worse than death getting treated like that repeatedly.
<BarGnat> brb. caffeine time.
<Fredrick> brb
<Kay> The powers, for both the good guys and the bad guys happened because of a malfunction that's since been fixed. Maybe a couple of hundred people, max, were affected. It's like a transportation device that was under development -- beam me up scotty, only different.
<Lucas> How does it work to regenerate if your pieces are in different places? Does the body generate from the head, the torso, or what? That could be an odd mechanical issue to consider.
<Kay> This isn't going to happen again, and they cant' duplicate it because they lost the data in the hurry to get the fix in.
<Robert> I think I like that Kay - but more as a start of a cascade, there are new supers coming up all the time
<BJ Steeves> Like starfish?
<Annie_Oakley> They lost it because theyir computer crashed
<Lucas> Someone would be trying to duplicate the malfunction.
<Lucas> Even if someone else fixed the original one.
<Robert> And that opened portals and magic flowing in through portals to magical worlds triggered a reaction that brought the tide of magic back to that world.
<Robert> Multiple causes. I want multiple cascading causes.
<BJ Steeves> AO.That's no reason, my computers seem to crash all the time!
<Jehane> must have been using windows, anne
<@SLViehl> lol BJ
<Robert> Repeated experiments by super villains also add new causes.
<BJ Steeves> That's why I'm moving to Linux.
<Fredrick> I'm back.
<Kay> then it can be any world you build -- and I can't think of any "done that" stuff from any "super power" type stuff so that's probably okay
<Fredrick> Superpowers as sexually transmitted diseases.
<Robert> Ultimately the kids will figure out some of the difference is ' villains want to rule the world' and 'heroes sort of already do and are playing king o f the hill'
<Annie_Oakley> Like a Stan Freiberg drawing. Pull the lever to make the roller skate go down the ramp to hit the frog and make him jump...
<Jehane> my next computer will be linux
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom/whatever
<James> What if it's something in space, Robert -- new supers appear when Earth moves through a certain point in its orbit?
<Erik and Jasper> brb 1 sec
<Kay> If there were a limited number of them, though there woudl be more pressure on teh guys to stop music and fight crime
<Kay> "because youre the only ones who CAANNNN"
<Annie_Oakley> Oh, didn't "Camp Concentration" have something like that?
<Fredrick> What if only children could be superheroes and outgrew it after twenty?
<Robert> There are limited numbers, these things happen to individuals. Yep, Kay!
<Erik and Jasper> back
<Fredrick> I thought it was intelligence in Camp Concentration.
<Fredrick> Not superpowers.
<Robert> Naw, it's not that they're teens and I want sixty and seventy year old Old Supers around in it. Yep, I remember Camp Concentration. Loved it.
<Fredrick> So supes would be collecting social security. Nice
<@SLViehl> All right, let's get the show back on the road. Fredrick, you're up, then Jehane is after Fredrick.
<Fredrick> O.K. I need title help.
<Lucas> Geriatric super heroes. Depending on the nature of their powers, they could be relatively unaffected by aging.
<Fredrick> Just a second.
<Erik and Jasper> ok
<Fredrick> While I type.
<@SLViehl> We are title experts.
<Sarah> Aargh, titles.
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Sarah> <lunges for the Bartlett's>
<Sarah> AAH! Where IS my Bartlett's??
<BJ Steeves> Sure about that Sheila?
<Jehane> (i haven't thought of a question, so james, you're up next)
<Danielle> bak
<Sarah> Oh, it's behind the computer.
<Nathan> ooooo, you just happen to be in luck...I've been working on titles for the past few days
<@SLViehl> If nothing else, BJ, I've thought up a couple thousand.
<James> No worries, Jehane.
<Nathan> LOL Sarah
<Fredrick> While waiting for obsidian's Light, I'm working on the rewrite of another science fiction novel called "Galaxy of Wonder." But I'm not sure it's the right title.
<Fredrick> I can give a quick synopsis of the story if it would help.
<Nathan> Obsidians Light?
<@SLViehl> can you give us a thumbnail, Fredrick?
<BJ Steeves> I know that true....ever come up with the trhee winners?
<Sarah> It'd definitely help.
<labloch> ditto Sheila
<Lucas> Certainly would Fredrick.
<Robert> Tell us about it. Yeah thumbnail. Unless there's something about a particular galaxy I'd rather see a retitle.
<@SLViehl> Not yet, BJ -- can you believe that? (wail)
<James> It feels deliberately retro, to me.
<Annie_Oakley> Wonder of the Galaxy? ;->
<BJ Steeves> I'll take another stab at some later.
<Sarah> I tried to help.
<Annie_Oakley> Actually I liked Obsidians Light...
<Fredrick> It's about a woman who crosses the galaxy to find her lost sister while on the run from enemies.
<Kaelle> I liked everything Sheila had thought of.
<Robert> Galaxy Crossing
<@SLViehl> Search the Stars
<Danielle> What are her enemies like?
<Lucas> How important is the travel aspect? Does it represent some mental/emotional course she is on, or does it merely provide the setting for the chase/conflict?
<Fredrick> She has to find the MacGuffin. Allso there are only a few planets left in the galaxy because aliens called Syirh stole them all for an unknown reason.
<BarGnat> Galactic Pilgrimage
<@SLViehl> Star Chase?
<labloch> Light Chaser, Star Chaser,
<labloch> whoa~
<Annie_Oakley> Syirh Syirh!
<Jehane> The Planet Thieves
<James> What's the name of the MacGuffin?
<Fredrick> The Macguffin is called a metaport, like a super portal.
<@SLViehl> (morphing back into my StarDoc brain patterns)
<Fredrick> In three pieces.
<Fredrick> Which she must collect and put together.
<Annie_Oakley> I know, that famous song, "Que Syirh Syirh! "
<@SLViehl> Yikes, Sophie, did we meld or what?
<Fredrick> Like a stargate.
<Lucas> Does the MacGuffin relate to the Syirh? And who is she running from?
<labloch> Lol Sheila!
<James> Well, I see nothing wrong with Metaport as a title...
<Fredrick> Yes, they want it destroyed.
<Fredrick> No, James. Too bland, I think.
<@SLViehl> Is the story hard SF, Fredrick?
<Annie_Oakley> PortalDoc
<Fredrick> No, soft as ice cream
<James> Ask for a flashy cover
<Nathan> lol Annie
<labloch> Starport
<Lucas> Gnarf.
<BarGnat> The Triad of Metaport
<Fredrick> I don't do hard Sf because I suck at it.
<Danielle> Way Out
<Lucas> Surrrrre Annie...
<Fredrick> Something with Galaxy.
<Fredrick> Maybe.
<@SLViehl> Galaxy Run?
<labloch> Galaxy Key
<BJ Steeves> Star Seach
<@SLViehl> Galaxy Threshold
<@SLViehl> no, too long
<Fredrick> I'm hesitant to use Stars because I don't want it to be associated with Trek or Wars.
<Nathan> Star Chase
<BJ Steeves> We get to vote.
<Danielle> Galaxy's Edge
<BarGnat> Galaxy Search
<Lucas> Planets Wanted
<Annie_Oakley> "Hey, who stole our planets?!" or maybe "Some of our planets are missing" ;->
<Sarah> Galaxy Quest <ducks>
<Fredrick> Something Poetic and Serious.
<labloch> lol Sarah
<BJ Steeves> Or Ed McMahon?
<Annie_Oakley> Quack
<@SLViehl> (tossing an apple at Sarah)
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Nathan> Hi Ari
<Fredrick> How does Galaxy of Wonder sound anyway? Too sappy?
<Annie_Oakley> Hello Ari
<labloch> Galaxy Port(al)
<Erik and Jasper> Robert, did you get your cat a computer?
<Danielle> I assumed it was sarcastic, Galaxy of Wonder
<Jehane> <scritches ari>
<labloch> It doesn't seem to fit the thumbnail, Fredrick
<@SLViehl> Galaxy of Wonder sounds a little like Forbidden Planet. Like the 50's
<James> As I say, it feels retro to me, so I'd expect something harking back to the space operas of the 50's.
<Nathan> The Running Search
<@SLViehl> dated, I think, Fredrick, no offense
<BJ Steeves> One of my favoites!
<Lucas> Port of Orbs
<Fredrick> No problem. I need input.
<@SLViehl> What is you MC's name?
<Jehane> what's the most important aspect of the story, fredrick?
<Fredrick> I was thinking Sheckley when I wrote it.
<@SLViehl> you=your
<Ari> No, he's just scribing now so that my buffer isn't stuffed.
<BarGnat> Sheckley's Galaxy
<Fredrick> The most important aspect is Deborah's search for her sister, Charlotte, no matter what the cost.
<Lucas> Port Authority
<labloch> Gallavanting the Galaxies
<labloch> (g)
<Sarah> You may want to hold off and see if you get a good line in the story. Czerneda titles her books that way (A thousand words for stranger, In the Company of Others, etc.)
<Lucas> Recalled: 20,000 Planets
<Nathan> The Searching Run
<Jehane> in search of charlotte
<Fredrick> Although the galaxy is risk, she cares more about her sister than about some piece of technology. It's a means to an end.
<labloch> Charlotte's Galaxy
<@SLViehl> Risk Factor?
<Danielle> Saving Charlotte
<Fredrick> She loves her sister more than anything and that's her personal stake.
<Lucas> What does her sister care more about? Her own welfare, or the technology?
<Ari> Chasing Charlotte
<Jehane> desperately seeking charlotte
<Lucas> Planets for Charlotte
<@SLViehl> Rubicon Crossing
<Annie_Oakley> Weyr Search... oh, never mind, that's been done before. Where Search? There Search.
<Danielle> Reunion
<Fredrick> Finding a planet called Avanlia, which is the key to getting back all the planets in the galaxy.
<labloch> Sister Galaxy
<BarGnat> Galactic Siblings
<Fredrick> Finding Avanlia might work.
<Sarah> I keep thinking Gateway to Darkness (the metaport and the empty galaxy).
<@SLViehl> Finding Avalia
<BJ Steeves> Starfarer's Search
<@SLViehl> Avanlia, I mean
<Nathan> Hunting Charlotte
<Jehane> yeah, i like finding avanlia
<labloch> Finding Avanlia works
<Danielle> 'Reunion' as in, of her and sister, and pieces of metaportal
<Fredrick> I like that, Sarah.
<BarGnat> Search for Avanlia
<@SLViehl> Finding Avanlia sounds poetic and serious, I think
<James> I like Finding Avanlia
<Erik and Jasper> titles are my worst point...
<Fredrick> The Search for Avanlia.
<James> Or variants
<Fredrick> Usually I'm good with titles.
<James> Lost Avanlia
<James> Hunting Avanlia
<Nathan> Planet Missing
<Fredrick> Sister World.
<Kaelle> Key to the Galaxy
<Fredrick> Galaxy's Key.
<Ari> Finders Weepers
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Fredrick?
<Fredrick> The Key to All Worlds
<labloch> Key to the Galaxy also works
<Kaelle> Ooh Fredrick, I like that
<BJ Steeves> Sibling's Lost Way
<Nathan> The running hunt
<Erik and Jasper> fredrick: have you finished the story yet?
<James> I like the Key to All Worlds a lot.
<@SLViehl> How about Key World?
<Lucas> Charlotte's Gate
<labloch> let us know what you end up with
<Fredrick> I'm in rewrite, but should be finished soon.
<labloch> !
<Danielle> Worlds' Return
<Fredrick> Usually I'm good with titles.
<Nathan> Lost Sister - Lost World
<Sarah> Into the Silent Land (pulling from Bartlett's again)
<Fredrick> But this novel just doesn't want to be titled
<Fredrick> Yes, I like that, Sarah.
<@SLViehl> Make a list, I think you've got some interesting words here to play with, Fredrick.
<Fredrick> Galaxy of Wonder also has lots of action.
<Sarah> Cross the Silent Void
<Annie_Oakley> Oooh I like Into the Silent Land.
<Jehane> charlotte's star
<Lucas> Key in to some major theme, or even, as someone suggested, a good line.
<Annie_Oakley> Charlotte's Web of Stars
<Erik and Jasper> make a list, sleep on it a bit... maybe it'll come to you after the rewrite
<Fredrick> Shootouts, chases, a love story, galactic intrigue.
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some very interesting title ideas. Jehane, you're up, James, you're after Jehane
<Ari> Charlotte's Webpage
<Jehane> no question for me
<Nathan> Sister hunt
<labloch> lol ari
<BarGnat> Galaxy of Intrigue
<Jehane> lol anne and robert
<@SLViehl> Okay, James, that means you're in the hot seat
<Fredrick> Sister Act
<BJ Steeves> Ari..sounds catching.
<Erik and Jasper> Fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, true love, miracles!
<Lucas> Hot seat? Froosh! Crackle... Fire noises...
<James> Sure. I spent the morning detailing my first three chapters. I want to end chapter three with the MC leaving the safety of his community. Everyone think's he's going to die on his quest.
<Nathan> {Plugs in 'hot seat'}
<Lucas> Including him?
<Lucas> Ahem, sorry, I'll wait for you to finish.
<James> He's going on the quest to save his mother, who is dying. She has asked him not to do it, saying she would rather die than risk her son.
<James> When he goes in to say goodbye to her, she is confined to her bed. She refuses to speak to him or look at him.
<Erik and Jasper> defiance?
<James> Is it more moving to leave it that way -- he departs without them speaking. -- or to have her call him back in last moment to give him her blessing?
<Ari> She's more sympathetic if she calls him back to give her blessing.
<labloch> no speaking
<Danielle> She could pass the blessing she can't give through another character?
<James> She doesn't want to do the slightest thing to indicate approval of his action, Erik.
<Danielle> Or that old standard, pack something meaningful in his belongings
<Jehane> he looks back as he goes through the doorway and says goodbye
<labloch> no speaking, but she gives him the goodluck charm she's never without
<@SLViehl> Speaking as a Mom, if she realizes he's not going to listen to her, I think she'd want to at least cry all over him.
<labloch> (or he finds it packed in his bag)
<Jehane> she sits there stony-faced, or maybe just tears running down her face
<Erik and Jasper> personally, i'm for them not speaking. It makes it harder for him to leave, and also gives him a reason to stay alive-- so he can speak to his mother again. tell her he loves her. that sort of thing
<Sarah> It's more heart-wrenching if he leaves with her mad at him and she dies when he's away.
<James> There's an ill-tempered aunt who could pass messages...
<Erik and Jasper> sarah: that's just evil lol
<@SLViehl> what if he tells her he's decided to stay, waits until she goes to sleep, then leaves?
<Danielle> Yeah, pass the blessing on through the aunt!
<Kay> agreed, Sheila. She may be pissed that he's throwing himself away for what she sees as a wrongheaded sacrifice for her, but, she WILL call him back
<Lucas> How is the aunt going to pass a message if he will be away looking for whatever he's looking for?
<Sarah> Evil is my middle name. Actually, no, I decided it was Danger, didn't I?
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<James> At that point, Sheila, there's practically a howling mob to flee -- he's got to go now or never.
<Jehane> have more than one middle name, sarah
<Kay> SHe will cal him back to say she loves him, to ask him again not to go, to tellhim to turn around any time and come home to her love
<Fredrick> She farts at him.
<Erik and Jasper> Danger is my alter-ego when i play Quake >: )
<Sarah> Unless she thinks he doesn't have the nerve to leave without her blessing.
<Nathan> You can have as many middle names as you want....I have a hlaf bakers dozen
<Lucas> What is your goal with this scene? What emotional key do you want to hit, and what does it need to set up for the rest of the story?
<Sarah> Then she'd be even more upset to find him gone.
<Danielle> She realises too late that he WILL leave without her blessing
<Fredrick> Or maybe she screams at her, "You stupid bloody so and so, what the f- do you think you're doing?"
<@SLViehl> Hmmm. I think I'd find a way to show my blessing without verbal approval. Maybe help him escape the mob, and he doesn't realize it until he's out of the city.
<Annie_Oakley> "God codes" is my alter-ego when I play Quake. I like the charm in his lunch bag idea...
<@SLViehl> Otherwise, she comes off as mean. To me, anyway
<Fredrick> Or maybe mom hires some thugs to break her son's legs so he can't go anywhere. It's for his own good.
<Ari> Definitely to me.
<Kay> she will tell him she wishes he wouldn't go, but that no matter hwo stupid it is to go, she loves him, and the more hopeless it is the more she will send her luck charm and her blessing on HIS life anyway
<Erik and Jasper> Maybe they could reach an "agreement" without any actual "Yes, go, save my life" kinda thing
<James> Well, Lucas, I guess I'm wanting it as hard as possible for him to go. But I can't quite believe the mother could hold out. She probably thinks she's going to die before she sees him again, even if he lives.
<Danielle> I like the version with her crying but still not relenting. Shows where he got his resolution from.
<Fredrick> Mom holds up a keepsake from his childhood, then shatters it.
<Erik and Jasper> kinda like "I'm going to go whether you want me to or not, so i may as well have your blessing."
<Kay> She's no gonna send him to save her life. she might admit she can't stop him and she sin't willing to have him leave in anger, but she's not gonna send him to death to save her life
<@SLViehl> This could be the first time his mother sees the man he will become, by his steadfast attitude and defiance.
<Kay> true, Sheila.
<Annie_Oakley> You're evil, Fredrick. We like that.
<@SLViehl> Not a comfortable moment for any mother, but one we all have to face with some amount of bravery.
<Danielle> They sound like they have a lot in common, then.
<Fredrick> Mom's can hold resentment like no other.
<James> Looking back and seeing big time tears would work for me, but then, under those circumstances I think the kid would goe back to her -- there's a couple of minutes pre-mob.
<labloch> You could have him go away without the blessing, and then show the Mother's thoughts after he goes--remorse, pride, grief
<Fredrick> I know I'm evil
<Kay> Not a mom he'd risk his life for, Frederick
<Nathan> Maybe the person who's leaving has a brother, and a jacob and esau kinda thing happens
<Fredrick> It's what makes me so charming.
<labloch> fear, and a bit of hope
<Erik and Jasper> labloch: mixture of grief and anger, i think
<Erik and Jasper> at the end there
<@SLViehl> I know when my oldest left home the first time, I cried my eyes out. In front of him. Wimp that I am.
<Danielle> There could be no verbal blessing, just a moment where they get to hold each other.
<labloch> yeah, EJ
<Sarah> I like a conflict of resolutions. She doesn't think he'll leave if she doesn't give her blessing, so she does it to try to keep him there and save him. He's just stronger than she thought.
<@SLViehl> If she really believes either he or she will die before he returns, she's going to want to say goodbye in some way.
<labloch> Sheila, my mom cried when I left for my first sleepover party.
<Danielle> Yeah, Sarah.
<Ari> Weird
<labloch> me too, Sarah
<@SLViehl> Mine too, Sophie
<Fredrick> What about Dad? Does he cry? Or is Dad not around.
<James> So maybe tears, embrace, a "Don't go. Please." Then nothing else until he realizes he has to leave?
<James> His father's dead, Fredrick, and his step-father. It's a hard-luck community.
<Kay> Good question. Why's son going out to save life of Mom if Dad's still around and kicking?
<Danielle> She looks in his eyes, and he sees her realise he will go, blessing or not.
<Fredrick> O.K., so pops not an issue.
<labloch> not bad, James
<Fredrick> What does stepdad think?
<@SLViehl> I'd break down and beg. When it comes to my kids, I'm not proud. I'm mush.
<Kaelle> And then when he goes, she says "Come back." and that
<Kaelle> is it.
<James> Though I like Sheila's analysis of what she's thinking, seeing the adult in the boy.
<Fredrick> Oops, just saw stepdad's dead too. Sorry.
<Erik and Jasper> James: Read Stephen King's The Talisman. Excellent example of what you're talking about.
<James> I did, a long time ago, Erik. I'll dig it out.
<Fredrick> Peter Straub also wrote Talisman.
<Fredrick> With King.
<@SLViehl> Hmm -- Erik, don't you think Jack's mother let him go a little too easily in that novel?
<Erik and Jasper> that's right fredrick, i couldn't remember how to spell straub
<@SLViehl> (referring to the Talisman)
<Erik and Jasper> sheila: yes, i do... i don't think she thought he'd stay gone that long though
<James> There's also the practical consideration that his leaving (and his step-brother's) will cause material harm to the community. His act is selfish and selfless at the same time.
<Erik and Jasper> I've read that book about 7 times, lol
<Fredrick> Look at all the mother's during wars who let their sons go off to battle, knowing many of them wouldn't come back.
<@SLViehl> Well, she also didn't know what he was really going to do....
<Erik and Jasper> one of my favorites of all time, there.
<labloch> Do you want it to play wrenching, James?
<Erik and Jasper> tahts true
<labloch> (cause I do, heh)
<Fredrick> Maybe silence would be best.
<James> I'd like it to wrench.
<Fredrick> Sometimes you can say things with silence that you can't say with a million words.
<labloch> silence or a final, unanswered "Don't go" could do it
<Danielle> The aunt will definitely point out the selfishness, even if the mother doesn't.
<Erik and Jasper> that, sheila, and i think she was used to 'weirdness'...
<@SLViehl> Weeping and begging, then a drawing back as she realizes her son is on his way to manhood. A silent, shaky farewell. That's how I'd play it.
<James> Because what he's doing is wrong. It turns out right, but he should pay a big price for what he's choosing to do.
<@SLViehl> true, Erik
<Fredrick> What if the mother threatens suicide if he walks out that door?
<Nathan> Does the boy/man have a brother?
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for James?
<labloch> what kind of person is the mother?
<Fredrick> Holds a knife to her own throat and presses it.
<Fredrick> She says, "If you walk out that door, I'll kill myself. I swear it."
<Lucas> Perhaps the mother could show her love for him while still demanding he reconsider what he's about to do. She could speak a special leave taking, one reserved for use only toward a special group of people - exiles, orphans, dying people, whatever you decide is appropriate.
<labloch> let your characters call it, James, and wrench away!
<Erik and Jasper> yikes fredrick, lol
<Fredrick> And he knows she'll do it.
<Nathan> pimg
<@SLViehl> and thanks for some great ideas. I'm glad you all are not my children, lol. Sarah, you're up, Nathan, you'll be after Sarah.
<BarGnat> .
<Sarah> Passing
<@SLViehl> Okay, Nathan, that puts you in the hot seat.
<Nathan> I'm up, Right?
<Nathan> I m toward the end of Ekion s big adventure and I ve been reading a lot, and I noticed that a lot of major book authors have put plot twists in in the last few chapters. So I was wondering, should I put as subplot/twist in, and if so, what subplot/twist should I put in chapters?
<Lucas> Yes.
<Fredrick> Does it help the story?
<Fredrick> Or are you just putting it in because other writers do it?
<Sarah> Generally, if you're putting a twist in, you should know what it is early in the story.
<Jehane> put one in if it fits, not just because
<Ari> I like big plot twists toward the end if they've been set up before hand and there's recognition... groan, didn't think of that! And it fits!
<Sarah> That way you can write toward it and seed hints throughout the story.
<Annie_Oakley> Do you have something that can grow from the story? If not, it might not work.
<BJ Steeves> If it doesn't help the story...Leave it out.
<Fredrick> If the former, then fine. If the latter, then I'd suggest not to.
<@SLViehl> I wouldn't insert a twist unless the story needed one, Nathan.
<Fredrick> Or unless it changes the rules of the game.
<Fredrick> Makes the story harder.
<@SLViehl> How do you feel about the story? Does the plot work for you?
<@SLViehl> As it is now, I mean.
<Lucas> I usually find it entertaining for the end to warp around a little, even if just a bit, because it wakes you up and makes you pay attention to a story that you might have begun to read with a sense of "Yeah, this is going along like so, and X will probably happen".
<Fredrick> Some readers might like it, others might find it contrived.
<@SLViehl> good point, Fredrick
<Nathan> Honestly....I just want to make this story longer
<BarGnat> Readers come in all flavors
<Nathan> There's my true motive...
<Jehane> does it need to be longer?
<Fredrick> You can't get every reader to like your story, so worry about whether or not you like it. As a reader, would you buy this twist?
<Annie_Oakley> Most of my early rejection slips were about how my twist endings didn't work because the story was nothing but build-up to that snappy ending.
<Ari> Pulling off what Lucas is takling about takes misdirection. The steps to Z should be right on stage but seem less important than the steps to X the ending that ain't gonna happen.
<Fredrick> Or would you throw it across the room?
<labloch> if you do decide it needs to be longer, plant stuff before and twist near the end.
<Fredrick> How big is this twist?
<Nathan> I've never...well almost never, thrown a book across the room
<Fredrick> Earth-shattering, a character revelation?
<Fredrick> A Keyser Soze?
<Fredrick>
<Nathan> Keysor soze? What's that?
<Fredrick> Usual Suspects ending
<labloch> lol
<Danielle> The trick ending of a movie, Nathan
<Nathan> Usual suspects?
<BJ Steeves> The butler did it!
<Fredrick> Big character twist at the end. Won't spoil it, though.
<Fredrick> Good movie.
<Lucas> If you want to make the story longer, making something reasonably harder withing the story can do that, especially provided that something which was thought to be a small problem all the way through the story gradually is revealed to be more and more important.
<Nathan> Hey, theres a good idea, BJ...to bad theres no Butlers
<Lucas> That way, nothing seems pasted on at the end.
<@SLViehl> good suggestion, Lucas
<BJ Steeves> That was the twist.
<James> Bloody bloody bloody computer froze. Sorry everyone -- and thank you, that was a helpful discussion!
<Kaelle> That's good, Lucas
<@SLViehl> I wouldn't tack on something either, Nathan.
<@SLViehl> I thought James was being a little quiet. Welcome back
<Nathan> Right now, I'm only doing the first draft....almost everything in it is going to be changed
<Nathan> ping
<Erik and Jasper> .
<Jehane> you can plan a plot twist, and go back and insert all the clues in the rewrite then
<Danielle> Nathan, you might find the story gets longer anyway when you rewrite
<BarGnat> I have no suggestions for you, simply because I'm just now trying to learn how to do plot twists, myself.
<Fredrick> Unless the twist is relavant to the story, then I'd leave it out of the first draft.
<James> Good heavens. I'm back and now all of you have disappeared...
<Erik and Jasper> no we haven't
<Lucas> Then you can figure out lots of things to add/work with. I'd look for something that was apparently solved, and figure out why it reall wasn't or just what that problem cropping up implies. If you use what's already there, it might keep it all in theme.
<Nathan> Dissapeared?
<Nathan> Whaddya mean dissapered?
<@SLViehl> If you map out your plot during your rewrite stage, Nathan, you may find areas that you can add depth and strengthen without tacking on or splicing in a twist
<@SLViehl> James, we still see you
<Fredrick> If you want a good twist, look at it from the antagonists POV.
<James> Just poking fun at the long silence, Nathan
<Nathan> oh
<@SLViehl> (smacking James lightly.)
<Lucas> Yes, much as Shiela is suggesting. It
<Fredrick> What could make it worse for the protagonist.
<James> Ouch.
<Lucas> It's the old ripples and waves idea.
<Danielle> Ripples and waves?
<Erik and Jasper> ?
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nathan?
<Fredrick> Twists are probably more likely to worry in a dramatically plotted story than an episodically plotted one.
<Fredrick> Dramatic plots have strong cause and effect relationships.
<Lucas> Yes, you pick an event, see what ripples it makes in the world, and pretend that they just keep expanding outward, combining with others, and getting bigger and bigger.
<Fredrick> Work, should be. Not worry
<Danielle> Oh, thanks Lucas. Cool.
<@SLViehl> I'd map out the plot as it is, Nathan, and study it. If it works for you, then I'd work off the existing threads, add depth and strengthen them.
<James> Fredrick's doing Yoda impressions!
<Erik and Jasper> oh boy
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Fredrick> Type bad I do
<@SLViehl> as Lucas suggests
<Nathan> Okay...thank you all, very much
<@SLViehl> thanks all for some great insight -- Kay, are you passing tonight?
<Labloch> durned freezing Netscape!
<Erik and Jasper> netscrape... hhee
<Fredrick> Also don't go overboard on plot twists. It can make the story really stale.
<Fredrick> Like Mission Impossible 2 and all those masks being pulled.
<Lucas> That why you don't twist, you expaaaaaaand!
<@SLViehl> Is Kay still with us?
<@SLViehl> (wondering if everyone got bounced)
<Fredrick> A-ha and now Ton Cruise turns out to be Thandie Newton!
<BJ Steeves> Ping
<Erik and Jasper> i'm still here...
<Lucas> I'm still here. Kay, can you hear us?
<Erik and Jasper> kay???
<Danielle> I'm here... I think
<Ari> I'm still scribing. Kay?
<BarGnat> Hello?
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<@SLViehl> She might be multi-tasking
<Erik and Jasper> could be. anyone know if she uses AOL?
<Erik and Jasper> I could IM her
<Annie_Oakley> Like that Scooby Doo episode I saw where they pulled the bad guy's mask off and revealed him as the manager of the hotel, but then they realized he was wearing another mask, and he was really his assistant wearing a mask to try to frame the manager.
<BarGnat> She said earlier she had no question, Sheila
<@SLViehl> I think she said she was going to pass, so I'm going to move on to BJ -- got a question for us?
<Fredrick> Yes, Annie.
<Fredrick> Just like that
<BJ Steeves> More of an requst for opinions.
<BJ Steeves> request
<Danielle> Oh, we like those!
<Erik and Jasper> works for me fire away
<Fredrick> Primal Fear by William Diehl had a great twist ending.
<Erik and Jasper> no kidding fredrick... lol
<@SLViehl> Request away, pal
<BJ Steeves> A really hard one.....I have three completely different kinds of stories to write. One is/could be part of a series of fantasy adventures based on various games, the first one being a "live" chess game. This one is the most thought out and my current WIP, but I can't seem to get it going right now. The second story deals with computers/androids and such. This one is what I do full time and hav
<BJ Steeves> have the most experience/knowledge in. And the third is a space opera, and is the type of story that I most wanted to write because this type story is my favorite. I'm gonna do them all, but I would like an opinion on which to do first.
<Fredrick> The space opera. Because it's your favorite.
<Danielle> Space opera! Go with what you love.
<Ari> Do the space opera, it';s the one you're excited about.
<@SLViehl> Which one is easiest for you to work on?
<James> I normally recommend going with what you love.
<Erik and Jasper> which one are you more likely to finish?
<Danielle> Can you combine them? Space opera/live chess?
<James> On the other hand, the indecision you describe is exactly the excuse my subconscious has been using for several years to keep me from completing much of anything.
<Kaelle> Can you only work on one at a time?
<Jehane> grow tentacles and do all three at once
<Fredrick> In my experience, I'm more likely to finish projects that I care about or have some sort of vested interest in.
<@SLViehl> See, I'd work on all three at once, but I'm insane.
<Erik and Jasper> james: ouch, i know how that feels
<Kaelle> me too, Sheila
<BJ Steeves> Told ya it was hard. I guess the "computer" one, as that is what I know best, doing it full time every day.
<James> What's the difficulty you're having with the first on, BJ?
<Ari> If you can manage to jump back and forth it's cool
<Labloch> do the space opera first!
<James> on=one
<Erik and Jasper> BJ: Doing it all day, could you stand to come home and do it some more in fiction?
<Fredrick> I'd advise against it. You'd be spreading yourself too thin. But then Alexandre Dumas worked on multiple projects, so I could be wrong.
<Nathan> Why not combine the latter two, then you wouldn't have as many to chose from...
<Labloch> good idea Nathan!
<@SLViehl> What if you devoted 2/3 of your writing time to the one you love working on the most, and split 1/3 of the time between the other two?
<Ari> Or combine all three and get a lot of complexity - live chess, androids, computers within a space opera ... it would work...
<Nathan> Thank you
<Erik and Jasper> hell, if it were me, i'd try to find some way to combine all three... and because i'm evil, i'll suggest it.
<BJ Steeves> Combining the last two...Enteresting idea.
<Sarah> If you decided to do all three, sometimes it helps to have different music selections for each one. (firm endorser of musical conditioning for writers)
<Nathan> Good idea, Ari
<BJ Steeves> Interesting
<Fredrick> I like that idea, Sarah.
<Nathan> Personally, I think that the live chess sounds interesting
<Ari> That and if you do any combining, combining characters will enrich them.
<BJ Steeves> That is my current WIP Nathan.
<Annie_Oakley> Battle chess ;->
<Nathan> But then that's probably mostly because I've been think about doing one with live checkers
<Kaelle> You know, live chess, androids and space opera sounds cool combined. <eg>
<James> How far into the WIP are you, BJ?
<Danielle> Remember that working on one just means you get to write the others later
<BJ Steeves> Sort of
<@SLViehl> I combined two short stories and came up with a monster novel, BJ, so it does work
<Fredrick> Monster novel as in big? Or as in drooling creature with fangs.
<Danielle> Make a list of what you love about space operas and work some of that into the WIP
<Nathan> lol
<@SLViehl> monster as in 200K words. Verrrry big, lol
<Fredrick> Oh, I see.
<Fredrick> Semantics problem.
<BJ Steeves> Sheila, the combining idea has hit a nerve and I think I'm gonna play with that a while.
<@SLViehl> We've done nerve damage, group! Yay!
<Sarah> Hurrah!
<Ari> I think I might too cause I've been mucking with a lot of fragments...
<Kaelle> Yay!
<Ari> Yayy
<Fredrick> Break out the stem cells, quick!
<BJ Steeves> No root canals though
<@SLViehl> We're so evil.
<Danielle> Pull out, pull out!
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<BarGnat> Have your space opera protag and antagonist playing a live chess game throughout the story, with androids/humans as the game pieces
<Labloch> lol
<@SLViehl> Seriously, though, it sounds like a cool idea to combine them, BJ.
<Ari> If one side's got androids and the other's got humans there will be blood on the floor when pieces are captured...
<Fredrick> Ouch.
<BJ Steeves> It just might be the "kick" I need.
<Fredrick> Genetically engineered pieces.
<Fredrick> Maybe animals.
<Danielle> Oh Fredrick, Mr Evil.
<Fredrick> Maybe they could play genechess, with DNA strands.
<@SLViehl> (admiring Fredrick) You just don't quit, do you?
<@SLViehl> lol
<Fredrick> Adenine rooks, cytosine queens
<BJ Steeves> The "live" chess game was gonna be medival armies going at it for real. But I may modify that now.
<James> That's such a freaky, interesting idea, Fredrick...
<Fredrick> Never give up, never surrender!
<BarGnat> lol
<Ari> rofl
<Annie_Oakley> Genetically engineered chess pieces that become intelligent on their own -- and start hacking up the heroes.
<Nathan> Maybe it could be space age armies going at it for real...with a few robots
<@SLViehl> What I want to know is, what Fredrick eats for breakfast. And then go get me some.
<Labloch> Fredrick, that's some brain there.
<Danielle> Cool, Anne!
<@SLViehl> nice twist, Anne
<James> It can't be legal, Sheila
<Labloch> lol annie
<@SLViehl> West World
<Fredrick> I remember high school biology.
<Nathan> Sheila: How many pages was the 200K novel?
<BJ Steeves> I loved West World.
<@SLViehl> Close to 800, I think, Nathan
<Erik and Jasper> <phew>
<Sarah> Courier 12 double?
<Nathan> Sounds like a nice short novel
<Fredrick> Or use sentient viruses as chess pieces.
<Ari> Uh oh. Robert's book that's out on submission ran that long. oops.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for BJ? Yep, Sarah. Always
<BJ Steeves> Actually got the ChessMasters idea from Future World.
<Danielle> Combine! Combine!
<Kaelle> Combine
<Erik and Jasper> combine it all!
<Fredrick> With blood cells as the pawns.
<@SLViehl> Definitely play with the combo, I like it.
<Nathan> Thats the kind of novel I could read in a little over 24 hours
<Annie_Oakley> I looked too quickly, and I was about to say.. "Robert wrote a book on submission?" Never mind.
<Fredrick> People could play micro-chess with a single human body.
<Nathan> (800 pages that is)
<@SLViehl> You read faster than me, Nathan
<Nathan> Combo
<James> Annie
<Erik and Jasper> i wouldn't want anyone playing games in MY body... lol
<Fredrick> What if you could win big prizes?
<Danielle> Or with my body...
<Ari> Carcinoma Angels - Kurt Vonnegut
<Nathan> I read StarDoc in i think about 16 hours :D
<Labloch> "And the winner is...Ebola!)
<Labloch> er "
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some excellent suggestions. Danielle, you're up, then Blair is after Danielle.
<Nathan> (Showing off)
<Danielle> Okay, warning: dodgy medical question ahead.
<@SLViehl> sock it to us
<Danielle> One of the villains in my WIP has transparent skin (or at least skin with the opacity of frosted glass) due to a magical experiment gone wrong. I know its medically dodgy, but what would you see of his internal organs, circulation, in terms of colour and movement?
<Lucas> Dodgy?
<Annie_Oakley> Goodness, Eric Stoltz has gotten ugly.
<BJ Steeves> Coll stuff everyone. THANKS!
<Nathan> Dodgy?
<Annie_Oakley> Cool!
<Nathan> Glad to be of service, BJ
<Sarah> Lots of the liver.
<Labloch> Maybe he's genetically engineered with silicates?
<BJ Steeves> YEah, that's what I meant.
<Ari> You'd see some pads of whitish fat in some areas
<Erik and Jasper> danielle: If only the skin is transparant, you'd see muscular action and structure mostly.
<Kaelle> INteresting.
<Erik and Jasper> muscle and fat
<Annie_Oakley> Would he be like those little transparent fishies?
<Labloch> silicate skin, that is
<Nathan> Eeeeeeuuuuuuuuuu
<Danielle> Yes, but what would it look like?
<@SLViehl> A spell that only affects the dermis would work that way. If you're going for total cell structure, then his insides would be translucent too
<Erik and Jasper> muscle, fat, and veins.
<@SLViehl> You might want to tie the spell in with melanin, Dani
<Nathan> Thats gross
<Annie_Oakley> Check out healthcentral.com. Dr. Dean collects anatomical art.
<Lucas> The muscles would have to be transparent, or muscles would be about all that you'd see. The organs wouldn't show.
<Kay> oops -- caught away from keyboard -- really didn't and still dont' have question
<Sarah> If you want to make a visible man, it's going to have to target dermal and muscle tissue.
<BarGnat> Look at one of those charts that are always on the wall in the doctor's examining room
<Danielle> No, it's just his skin. The way I visualise it (with NO medical knowledge) is that you can see muscles etc.
<Fredrick> Would the blood be invsivible, or would he look like Mr. Anatomy.
<Labloch> d'oh, caught the magic reference
<Erik and Jasper> gross but pretty neat
<Danielle> thanks, Anne, I will
<Fredrick> Like The Hollow Man, only not so hollow.
<@SLViehl> Extremely good point, Lucas
<Labloch> clear sking (g) would show muscles, cartilage, fat
<Nathan> You mean like an invisible person or something?
<Ari> Very esthetic if he came out like the fish though
<Erik and Jasper> fredrick: hollow man early in the transition phase
<Fredrick> Wouldn't his body be more directly exposed to UV rays?
<Erik and Jasper> yikes, hate to see the effect that'd have
<Danielle> thanks Lucas, okay. What colour would working muscles look?
<Fredrick> And wouldn't he get cancer faster.
<Labloch> You could have his muscles affected too, and then we'd see internal organs sans heart, ha
<@SLViehl> The old World Book Encyclopedia back in the 60's had layered plates on human anatomy. Transparent skin would be like flipping back plate one.
<Lucas> Great Fredrick! He could get sun-burn in an instant!
<Danielle> Would you see circulation?
<Fredrick> What happens to the melanin, the skin pigment?
<Nathan> Probably would'nt get skin cancer very easily
<Erik and Jasper> he'd definately need some sort of UV protection... but I think danielle is looking for what he'd look like, rather than side effects
<Labloch> Encyclopedia Britannica still has those, Sheila!
<Danielle> Thanks, yes, Erik, I had thought of side-effects
<Erik and Jasper>
<Danielle> Colours? Anyone?
<James> If you run with Fredrik's notion, you wouldn't need to see the organs for grossness -- there could me great flowers of melanoma blooming under the skin.
<@SLViehl> He'd probably look a lot like a skinned cow. With lots of yellowish fat deposits.
<Kay> yuk
<Labloch> Green gall bladder
<Sarah> Pretty much dark pink to red. You'd probably see superficial blood vessels too...
<Erik and Jasper> sheila: but how would a live skinned cow look?
<Labloch> I think?
<Danielle> Facially, what about that?
<BarGnat> The "frosted glass" effect of the translucence could make the colors look different --- make 'em any color you want to
<Labloch> muscules
<Erik and Jasper> facial structure? yikes
<Labloch> er muscles
<Fredrick> Clive Barker. Books of Blood. "When we're opened, we're red."
<Danielle> True, BG
<Labloch> and eye, and teeth
<@SLViehl> If you look in any Betty Crocker cookbook, they usually have a diagram of a skinned cow, to show cuts of beef.
<James> They eyes would seem larger, wouldn't they, as you'd see all of them without the eyelids?
<Erik and Jasper> good call sheila
<Sarah> (trying to think of where the nerves run.... there are a lot of glands just beneath the skin. Big one in the cheek area near the masseter muscle, but that's in a cat....
<Erik and Jasper> definately find your self an encyclopedia, or an anatomy reference
<Danielle> SORRY for this - Would a dead skinned person look different from a living 'skinned' person?
<@SLViehl> You'd also see the front facial skull plates. Teeth, sinus openings, etc.
<Fredrick> Memoirs of an Invisible Man, by H.F. Saint. Had some interesting observations about being invisible. Might pertain to your story.
<Sarah> Masseter muscle (put your hand on your cheek and clench your jaw) is a big round ball.
<Lucas> Find an anatomy book with a few good illustrations.
<Erik and Jasper> most definately danielle. i'm no doctor, but i'm sure of it
<Jehane> depends how dead they were
<Labloch> hm, rigor mortis and decay factors...
<@SLViehl> Sure. You'd see the living process
<Lucas> The blood wouldn't be all red. Some would be blue as it returned in the veins, just as it is under our skin.
<Erik and Jasper> ya, life in motion so to speak. as opposed to dead and decaying tissues
<Danielle> Sheila - that's what I want to know. What would be the most obvious visual aspects to the living process?
<Ari> Yellowish fat, not whitish fat? When I cut myself it looked more whitish
<Fredrick> Would anyone want to be aroind him?
<Erik and Jasper> yes, blue bod
<@SLViehl> heart beating, organs constricting, muscles contracting, ewtc.
<Sarah> It's not blue, it's just really dark.
<Kaelle> Wouldn't you see movement of the stuff on the inside?
<Erik and Jasper> robert: ever seen a liposuction?
<Erik and Jasper> that stuff's yellow
<Erik and Jasper> (and pretty damned gross...)
<BarGnat> The garnet veins rippling as the blood pumped past the blue muscles
<BJ Steeves> Sounds like Jabba the Hutt
<@SLViehl> Usually when I see fat deposits they're yellow
<Ari> I had a deep cut on my arm once and it seemed more pale
<Danielle> Fredrick - no, he's very lonely now
<Fredrick> What about bones? Would you see his skull? That would be creepy.
<Sarah> Fat's yellow.... would connective tissue go transparent too? That's a whitish webbing all over everything.
<James> I would just like to pause and admire the sentence, "Usually when I see fat deposits..."
<@SLViehl> If you get the Health channel or Discovery, try to watch "The Operatoion", Dani -- that will give you an inside look at the body.
<@SLViehl> Sorry, "The Operation" is the name of the show
<Erik and Jasper> fredrick: there's really no fat or muscle at the crown of the head, so you might see some skull. i'm not 100% sure though
<Fredrick> Does he paint his flesh to give the illusion of pigmented skin?
<Danielle> Thanks. I apologise for the nastiness of the question!
<Nathan> Jabba the Hutt is a 'worm-ridden peice of filth'. Makes for a pretty interestesting mind picture :D
<Lucas> Perhaps the scar tissue from any injuries would be very visible, like clots of milk floating in the translucent skin.
<Danielle> Fredrick - yes, he paints his face sometimes.
<Erik and Jasper> np danielle this is fun
<@SLViehl> Don't apologize, it's very interesting
<Erik and Jasper> hhee
<Fredrick> brb
<Sarah> <diving for my anatomy texts>
<@SLViehl> Is anyone grossed out?
<Danielle> He's an ex-dancer, too.
<Nathan> Yeah...sure....NP
<Erik and Jasper> grossed out?? i live on this stuff
<Danielle> The heroine sees him up close in scene 2 of my WIP.
<James> Heavens no.
<@SLViehl> See, we're all ghouls.
<Kaelle> Nah, it's fascinating
<Danielle> lol
<Nathan> <sarcasm>Just a little</sarcasm>
<Labloch> nope
<Ari> It's less scary than some of the psychological horror stuff
<Erik and Jasper> lol sheila
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Danielle?
<Danielle> He's not supposed to be scary so much as unhappy.
<Nathan> Nope...none that I can think of
<BJ Steeves> Takes an awful lot for me to be "grossed out". Spent 8 years in the Army...during the Vietnam era.
<Ari> If I looked like a skinned cow I'd be unhappy too
<@SLViehl> I'd go with the skinned beef/yellow fat/subdermal functions look, Danielle.
<Erik and Jasper> danielle: he probably has that effect by default, regardless of his intentions.
<Nathan> (((((BJ)))))
<Danielle> Thanks, and I'll look up some operations/anatomy material.
<Sarah> Don't forget blood vessels!
<Jehane> i have to go. thanks for another interesting discussion, guys! and thanks again sheila! bye
<Lucas> Healthy fat (not excessive, but necessary to life) is darker colored, the lighter yellow fat is what you get from too many potatoe chips.
<Danielle> bye Jehane!
<BJ Steeves> Hold the pickles...Hold the lettuce..
<Kaelle> Night Jehane
<James> See you, Jehane
<Nathan> Bye Jehane...May the Muse be with you
<BarGnat> Next time you're in a doctor's office, look at one of those charts!
<Labloch> later Jehane
<Erik and Jasper> nite jehane
<BarGnat> Bye, Jehane
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all you ghouls. Blair, you're up, Sophie, you're after Blair. Night Jehane
<Kay> good night Jehane!
<Jehane> good writing all.
<Erik and Jasper>
<Blair> I have a confidence problem. Basically I work on something for a while, and suddenly decide that It's crap, and scrap the idea. I'm not sure if I'm too critical of my own work, and subconsciously would rather scrap the project than write something bad, or if I'm just too afraid that people won't like it. Any ideas/suggestions how I can get over this?
<Nathan> Back at you
<BJ Steeves> NIght Jehane!
<BarGnat> wb, Kay
<Erik and Jasper> blair: I have this SAME problem
<Kay> ditto
<Lucas> I encounter that all the time Blair, I call it middles.
<Erik and Jasper> i call it beginnings lucas. lol
<Ari> I've been having it lately
<Kaelle> Been there. Don't throw away the stuff. Give it time.
<@SLViehl> Are you re-reading over what you write a lot, Blair? Before you get to the end?
<Labloch> Just write right through Blair
<Danielle> I get encouragement telling my story ideas to others, and if they're interested, I feel better.
<@SLViehl> Coming to the Think Tank helps (hint hint)
<@SLViehl> lol
<Sarah> Finish something and post it for critique. Or leave it alone for a while and reread it when you've had time to forget it a little.
<Labloch> As Stephen King says, write like the Gingerbread Man runs.
<BarGnat> Do you have an outline?
<Fredrick> Just read the book Rotten Rejections and it picked me up 110%. It's available at Amazon and check your local library for it.
<Lucas> Erik - Actually, I was calling it beginnings too, until I finally got my latest story to take off.
<Erik and Jasper> i'll tell you what's helping me through what i'm writing... Don't let yourself look at what you've written before. EVER... then you won't have the urge to throw it away
<Danielle> Try writing fast, to outpace your inner critic.
<Labloch> Inspirational quotes help
<James> Everytime I've had this happen to me it's come from looking back too soon.
<Fredrick> Give yourself a bullshit permit.
<@SLViehl> A more practical solution would be to write something short, straight through to the end, and don't look back.
<Labloch> reading POS books help too
<Kay> I have recently concluded that if I planned more before i started writing, it would happen less. I often don't build characters adequately before i start
<Nathan> Thats what I think sometimes...then I think of some I read that Holly wrote somewhere, that goes along the lines of "Let youself write...even if its c***"
<Fredrick> Permit yourself to write BS, then worry about it later.
<Erik and Jasper> here's what you do: Come to chat, tell Robert you're thinking of erasing everything, and he'll hit you with Writer's Goad
<Nathan> Or soemthing like that
<@SLViehl> good point, Nathan
<Annie_Oakley> Read your earlier stuff, then you'll realize how much you've improved.
<Kaelle> lol Erik
<Danielle> To quote Fredrick from an earlier think tank: 'Don't worry about the first draft...It just needs all the story to be there.'
<Erik and Jasper>
<Nathan> LOL Erik
<Fredrick> Just read The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks and wonder how it got published
<Erik and Jasper> Robert's helped me out a lot, whether he knows it or not
<Fredrick> Or An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser.
<James> I've read (and tried with mediocre success) that writing in a silly font sets you up to accept that this is an imperfect draft, that it's okay to be less than perfect.
<Lucas> Try to remember something that I find very important to think about sometimes: If you write something, you'll have something, and you can work on it to make it better, if you do nothing, you'll get nothing, and where will you be then?
<@SLViehl> Robert is inspiration city, I have to say that.
<Kay> True
<BJ Steeves> Fredrick...I also wondered about that.
<Kaelle> James, I'll have to try that!
<Ari> Purr
<Annie_Oakley> Terry Brooks was in love with the word "was."
<Erik and Jasper> I don't know who I'm quoting, but "You can't fix a blank page"
<Labloch> Nora Roberts?
<Nathan> I love to work in strange fonts...esp. AUTOREALM heirglphics
<Ari> Mantra of the Chat Room
<James> It helped, Kaelle -- I didn't feel as if I was writing a shelf-ready piece.
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> Rather than classifying what you write as "good" or "awful", go for the simpler goal -- "finished"
<Erik and Jasper> sheila: that's what's turning me around.
<Danielle> Tell it to people, and then keep writing to answer their questions
<Kaelle> James, hmm, that might shut up that internal editor.
<Ari> There is "rough" and there is "done" and "done" is in print
<Nathan> Seeing the hieroglphs just makes me wanna write more
<Erik and Jasper> just get the story told, THEN go back and change stuff.
<Nathan> ditto
<Erik and Jasper> it's hard advice to follow, but if it were easy, everyone would do it
<Danielle> Erik, that's what's got me further than ever before on current WIP
<@SLViehl> After I had something like 100 short stories rejected, I started making my own chapbooks. Being able to hold my work in my hands and read it made me feel better.
<Fredrick> Are you showing your work to other people during the first draft stage?
<Erik and Jasper> (who am i to talk? I've never finihed anything hehehe)
<Kaelle> Sheila, also a good idea.
<Nathan> LOL Erik
<Erik and Jasper> but i know i eventually will.
<Nathan> Chapbooks? What Are those?
<Erik and Jasper> and that self-affirmation has changed my outlook a lot
<@SLViehl> Looks better when you hand a chapbook to someone to read, too. Looks serious.
<Erik and Jasper> what is a chapbook?
<Ari> Yes! I'll never regret self publishing Raven Dance because it took a lot of the sting out of the rejections. I have that as fallback.
<Danielle> Just decide you want to finish something more than you want to be immediately brilliant
<@SLViehl> It's a self-published book, Erik -- I can send you one of mine if you want a look.
<@SLViehl> You can do it on any printer.
<Erik and Jasper> Yes! That'd be cool!
<Erik and Jasper> hehehe
<@SLViehl> And I designed the cover art and put little sayings in mine and had a lot of fun with them.
<Erik and Jasper>
<Nathan> Huh...neat
<Erik and Jasper> BTW, read what you sent me yesterday Excellent hehehe
<Lucas> I recently spent some time just pounding away at an idea, and it didn't go anywhere. After that, something started working and I wrote a big outline and proceeded to cover over 5000 words in the space of two days. It was on a different story from what I was working with to begin with though, so maybe that isn't so useful after all...
<Lucas> Oh well.
<James> I also find it helps to avoid people with ridiculously high expectations. If I stumble upon a "Why I think all SF is terrible" articles complaining that nothing is well written anymore, I believe it for days and shutdown.
<@SLViehl> Amen, James.
<BJ Steeves> A new product....Sheila Chap Books.
<@SLViehl> If I'd listened to what everybody was spouting about SF when I wrote StarDoc, I'd have never finished it.
<Nathan> Hey, theres an Idea
<BarGnat> How do you print them, Sheila?
<Danielle> I find avoiding criticism at the start is helping... making my mind a crit-free zone, while I can
<@SLViehl> lol BJ
<Blair> *Vigorously jotting notes...thx
<Ari> I'm fighting off something like that right now - an anonymous critique on the freebie story I put up that was ... weird
<Erik and Jasper> There's nothing worse for your writing than listening to people who constantly put you down...
<Lucas> Much like Chap-Stick, only they're for dry, damaged morals instead of lips.
<James> It's why you'll see me get very cranky about that sort of thing.
<Erik and Jasper> LOL LUCAS
<Erik and Jasper> ROFL
<Kaelle> That would have been awful, Sheila. I love Stardoc
<@SLViehl> I'll have to do a thread on how to print up chapbooks, would that help?
<Erik and Jasper> Certainly!
<BarGnat> YES
<Danielle> yes, Sheila
<Ari> Yes! Please do!
<Nathan> Well, I gotta go, half after eight, and it's about time to start movies....and eat dinner
<Sarah> Chapbooks make good Christmas presents. Especially if you find a cover artist who draws better than you do.
<Erik and Jasper> Jasper: <purr purr meow!>
<BarGnat> Please
<@SLViehl> Blair, is any of this helping? Night Nathan
<Erik and Jasper> hehe nite nathan
<Danielle> bye, Nathan
<James> See you next time, Nathan.
<BarGnat> night, Nathan
<Nathan> May the Muse be with you all
<BJ Steeves> G'Night Nathan!
<Kaelle> Night, Nathan
<Sarah> Night Nathan!
<Ari> Night Nathan
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Blair?
<Kay> good night Nathan!
<James> Sometimes I've been helped by deliberately taking a week completely off from writing. Breaks the "this is crap this is crap this is crap" cycle.
<Lucas> Good night Nathan.
<Fredrick> Good night.
<Ari> I write for the people who love my writing. Anyone else can buy pizza
<Erik and Jasper> I do: Blair, just keep at it. Ignore the urge to listen to you internal editor
<@SLViehl> I'd fix your focus on one goal -- finish the work. Forget everything else until you do that.
<Kaelle> Hmm. Chap book. I have a bunch of short stories I could put in one for myself. An ego-boo, so to speak.
<Danielle> Find what you love to write about - enthusiasm might get you past hating the actual writing
<Sarah> I switch to reading when I get mired.
<Kay> Keep on writing. It's better than you think.
<Blair> Thx everyone!
<Erik and Jasper> Besides: NO writing is a LOT WORSE than crappy writing. lol
<Danielle> lol Robert
<Blair> good point Erik - thx
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some great motivation boosters -- Sophie, you're up, Lucas, you're after Sophie.
<Erik and Jasper> i should know: all i do is crappy! and i don't care
<Ari> Seriously that's one of my affirmations, derived off Heinlein saying "I'm competing for their beer money"
<Fredrick> Yes, people pay for crap, but they don't pay for blank pages.
<Kay> That's very true -- it's like on a test in school. ANY answer MIGHT be right. NO answer is CERTAINLY wrong.
<Erik and Jasper> exactly kay
<Labloch> Okay. I've got various types of information on novel manuscript format...
<Kaelle> Right
<Danielle> Robert> writing that down, that;s pure motivation
<@SLViehl> great attitude, Erik.
<Lucas> Pretend that what you already wrote is fine, then pretend that what you're going to write is going to turn out the way you want too. Don't let what you've already done drag on you. (Even if it isn't very hot...)
<Erik and Jasper> and, further, just write for yourself. I'm writing to tell a story, not to sell one
<Erik and Jasper> ok: sorry, it's labloch's turn
<Erik and Jasper> hhee
<Ari> Oh yes! I like that, it rhymes!
<Labloch> Oops, is it my turn yet?
<@SLViehl> Your turn, girl.
<Erik and Jasper> yuppers
<Labloch> Hokay, back.
<Kaelle> Sophie! Hang in there!
<Danielle> <grabs Sophie's fingertips and hauls her back in>
<Kaelle> Bad Cato, leave Sophie alone.
<Labloch> How many "words" are there in a 100k, 400 page novel? I have: Title page: Upper left corner, Name and contact info, right, approx word count (how do I figure that?)
<Labloch> Halfway down, centered title and byline.
Erik and Jasper didn't you say something earlier about having to leave at 10:50? not that i'm anxious to see you go, lol
<Labloch> 1" margins all around, Courier New 12, 25 lines per page...
<Labloch> Chapter pages: halfway down, center Chapter #, one or two spaces down, start chapter...right?
<Labloch> Footnotes at bottom, right: Name/Title/Page#
<Labloch> Scene breaks with indented #s, end with "THE END"?
<Labloch> So I think I covered everything...help?
<@SLViehl> Okay, first, what WP program are you using?
<Sarah> http://www.sfwa.org/writing/wordcount.htm
<Labloch> MS Word
<Kaelle> How did you know it was 100K?
<BarGnat> Never started chapter pages halfway down, myself. Is this a guideline from a specific publisher?
<Erik and Jasper> MS Word has a Word Count function
<BarGnat> 250 x 400 pages
<@SLViehl> Trust the wordcount on that one, Sophie -- my editor uses it. It's under Tools on the main toolbar.
<Fredrick> 400 pages is around 100,000 words. 800 pages is around 200,000 words and so on.
<Labloch> really? Okay, will do. I just wondered, since I had 69k and 320 pages
<BarGnat> using the 250/page count increases your total words that Word gives you
<BarGnat> Word increases the total words according to the characters+spaces divided by six
<Labloch> So do I need to go halfway down on a new chapter page?
<Fredrick> It's not ironclad, but rather what I've found.
<Fredrick> Yes, go down half a page. Bill Shunn has a webpage on manuscript format.
<BarGnat> If you're using the 250/page methodology, it might not be a good idea
<Labloch> yeah Fredrick, read that one too
<BarGnat> where is that, Fredrick?
<BarGnat> I'm having similar problems with formatting right now
<Erik and Jasper> isn't there a way to query the publisher and find out how They want you to format it?
<@SLViehl> Using the 250 words per page X number of pages formula would give you 80K. But if you're getting an actual 69K count from Word, I'd go with that.
<Fredrick> Can't remember the address. Try Google, type in "Bill Shunn" and "manuscript format." I think it should work.
<Labloch> gotcha Sheila.
<BarGnat> thx
<Labloch> This is a romantic suspense, I think, and most of the markets want 100k/400 pages.
<Danielle> Is there a reason not to trust the Word wordcount that appears under file properties?
<BarGnat> actually, it would give you 100K
<@SLViehl> Don't justify the text, if you have.
<BarGnat> 250 x 400 = 100
<Fredrick> Did you get rid of widows and orphans?
<Labloch> nope, no justified right, no widows and orphans, just as close to typewriter as I could get it
<BarGnat> can't do that if you go with the exactly 25 lines/page thingie
<@SLViehl> getting lag time here
<Erik and Jasper> whoa, massive lag
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Labloch> Ah, I'll see what happens when I turn off the 25lines/page.
<Ari> Same here and with scribing
<Erik and Jasper> widows and orphans?????
<@SLViehl> Hokay, that was weird.
<Dani> Looks like I'm not the only one who just got dropped out
<Erik and Jasper> what the heck are widows and orphans?
<Anon_12> I just got knocked off
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Erik and Jasper> who are you 12?
<Labloch> ack, I have 336 pages now!
<Erik and Jasper> oh
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Sophie?
<Fredrick> I'm Anon 12
<Lucas> Bits of sentences and paragraphs that are stranded on other pages.
<Erik and Jasper> aye
<Erik and Jasper> ooooh
<cherylp> Heh.
<Fredrick> O.K., I'm back.
<Erik and Jasper> are those good or bad?
<Labloch> sigh. I'll muddle on. Thanks everyone.
<Lucas> It makes it harded to read, I think.
<Ari> Bad.
<Erik and Jasper> stranded implies bad...
<Erik and Jasper> hehe ok
<Erik and Jasper> but that increases page count, right?
<Ari> The page with one word is an orphan. With one line it's a widow
<Fredrick> No decreases it.
<Blair> www.shunn.net
<Fredrick> Thanks, Blair.
<Erik and Jasper> no, i meant getting rid of them
<Erik and Jasper> hhe
<Fredrick> Couldn't remember that address.
<@SLViehl> thanks to all -- Lucas, you're up, then Erik is after Lucas
<BarGnat> Thanks for the URL.
<Blair> no prob
<Lucas> Ok, this is a character motivation question.
<Erik and Jasper> ok
<Lucas> The subject is a person who believes she can't end a relationship (like boyfriend/girlfriend) without getting into a shouting match or some similar display of anger.
<Lucas> She only knows how to break up with someone angrily, that's how she achieves mental closure for the relationship, by filing the guy away as someone who didn't really like her because he shouted etc at her.
<Lucas> However, if she tries to break up with someone, and he acquiesces but doesn't act angry no matter what she says, she is confused. She has no closure and doesn't know how to categorize the person.
<Lucas> What are likely ways for her to react to a guy who (for his own reasons) refuses to show any anger to her?
<Fredrick> more anger.
<Dani> She might go to extremes to provoke anger.
<@SLViehl> provocation. Tries to goad him.
<Labloch> goading
<Ari> Call him heartless and cold for not being angry. I've been that guy
<Annie_Oakley> Yeah. Throw stuff at him. Make fun of his manhood.
<Lucas> My story currently calls for her to keep hounding him after breaking up with him, to keep subjecting him to further indignities in hopes of provoking him to an angry reaction. I guess that sounds pretty reasonable?
<cherylp> Maybe she actually thinks about why she's doing it in the first place.
<Labloch> Derision, bigtime
<James> Or do the mental trick of claiming he's passive agressive -- that his silence is anger..
<Fredrick> She trashes his apartment.
<Erik and Jasper> she'd probably collapse in a fit of tears after she'd gotten the anger out of her system
<Labloch> she tracks down his girlfriends and badmouths him
<Ari> Very plausible. If she can't live with it being her decision to leave she'll be around the bend.
<Fredrick> Is she a manic personality?
<@SLViehl> acting out her confusion and frustration -- physically abusing him, maybe
<Kaelle> Yes, Lucas, I've actually been acquainted with someone who did that. THe hounding I mean.
<BarGnat> stalkiing
<cherylp> Ohhhhhh, Mary, call a spade a spade! (g)
<Erik and Jasper> imagine expecting some kind of emotional response, and getting nothing... it's as though the person didn't really care in the first place
<BarGnat> my grasp of the obvious is overwhelming. (g)
<@SLViehl> this is the Madonna complex, in a way -- men are all beasts, women are inviolate
<Lucas> Fredrick - Manic? She can do strange mood swings, though that might not be what you mean. Collected one minute, raging the next, persuasive later.
<Dani> She thinks that he's the one that's not normal, he's got a problem
<James> She might actually talk herself into going back to him, then use their first argument thereafter as a springboard (all unconsciously).
<Kay> Eventually, you'd think she'd/he'd ASK the other person why they're not getting angry, and then use the LACK of anger as a reason to say that the other person didn't care about them.
<Fredrick> I was thinking more along the lines of manic depressive.
<Ari> That fits with manic depressive people I've known
<Erik and Jasper> nutty girl... sounds like she gets in relationships simply for the joy of leaving them.
<@SLViehl> infidelity -- she might resort to that as part of the provocative behavior.
<Fredrick> Or she could get subtle revenge, like leaving a flaming bag full of dog poop on his doorstep.
<BJ Steeves> James...Subconsciously
<Dani> She might get physical, attack him
<Lucas> Kay - That's part of her problem. If he isn't angry, she wants to know if he EVER cared about her, because she doesn't want to think he fooled her all that time.
<Ari> And be thoroughly enraged if he's not jealous.
<@SLViehl> some folks aren't happy unless they're miserable
<cherylp> LOL, Frederick.
<Erik and Jasper> exactly sheila
<Erik and Jasper> i think i'm that way sometimes.
<Ari> Like the flaming bag of dog poop, that's creative
<Fredrick> Actually, I saw it on an episode of Cybill
<James> Granted, BJ -- though having her do it unconsciously might also be interesting
<Kay> That's still a good enough reason for a breakup if that's what SHE wants, Lucas, but you're right.
<cherylp> There's plenty of that in my front yard, Frederick, if you need ammunition.
<Lucas> Is there any other ramifications this attitude will have though, besides the obvious?
<Fredrick> Thought it was pretty funny, if a bit juvenile. Especially since Cybill was in her 50's.
<Kay> If i said the nastiest stuff i could to someone and it didn't hurt and produce anger, I would assume not caring.
<Erik and Jasper> lol james, sleepwalking, or rather, sleep-kicking his butt
<BJ Steeves> Interesting is right, James.
<Ari> If she wants out and doesn't think her reasons are good enough, that's the patttern.
<Labloch> lol you guys
<Fredrick> Max out his credit cards, use his phone
<James> When she meets the man of her dreams, she wakes up, losing him forever...
<Fredrick> Call in pizza and take out he didn't order.
<@SLViehl> I think it would put a tremendous amount of stress on your male character -- he has to know she's acting out.
<Kaelle> lol James
<Erik and Jasper> lol call Miss Cleo and leave the phone off the hook!
<Fredrick> Cry rape and have the police come.
<Erik and Jasper> how old is this girl?
<Ari> Erik, that's wicked!
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Fredrick> LOL, Erik
<Kay> who's miss cleo?
<@SLViehl> Remind me never to tick off Erik
<Labloch> lol Erik
<Erik and Jasper> LOL
<Fredrick> Psychic--supposedly
<Fredrick> Never bought it.
<Dani> It might cause a very unpleasant fascination with him, if she can't end up 'properly'
<cherylp> Kay, we need to have a chat! (g)
<Lucas> Right Shiela. He will probably come to suspect what's going on, and though he cares about her, he has determined that separating is the best for his mental health.
<@SLViehl> Miss Cleo is $4.99 a minute, I hear
<Kay> LOL,
<Fredrick> Or maybe she would call up his parents and make up lies, tell him that she's carrying his baby.
<Erik and Jasper> Lucas: How old is this girl?
<Ari> I don't care if she's real, she's overpriced
<James> She's likely to do something like this with all her relationships -- family, whatever passes for friends with her, she's not likely to get much belief is she accuses him of things.
<Lucas> They are both minors.
<Erik and Jasper> as in, 16?
<@SLViehl> There's a certain amount of self-esteem in this on both sides -- both wanting to preserve their own, and in a way, destroy the other person's
<Fredrick> Even worse. She could spray paint his car or slash his tires.
<Lucas> Though very close to majority, it's a semi-coming of age story.
<Erik and Jasper> ok, so 16-17...
<cherylp> Actually, at the moment, I think Miss Cleo is costing all of us $4.99 per minute..or at least the county she was arrested in...
<Erik and Jasper> she still live at home?
<Ari> Okay, in teenagers it'll get more extreme on both sides.
<Dani> Her own rage could spiral out of control, since his isn't there to check it
<@SLViehl> His desire to control her rage could also spiral out of control, too
<Lucas> They both live at home.
<Fredrick> Maybe she could sleep with another boy, video tape it secretly and send it to him to piss him off.
<Ari> It's also a bit more forgivable and fewer of their friends will see through it.
<Lucas> Different homes, obviously...
<Erik and Jasper> naturally
<Erik and Jasper> oh MAN fredrick! lol
<BJ Steeves> Stick a potato in the exhaust pipe, draw a line along the spark plugs with a pencil, put sardines on the top of the engine...stuff like that.
<Ari> She also might lie and claim infidelity without doing it.
<Fredrick> Or if she's nutty, stick a pipe bomb in his mailbox
<Blair> how far would she go? is she capable of physical violence. A Lead pipe to the head is likely to piss anyone off.
<BJ Steeves> Int he pattern of a smilie?
<Kay> this is a classic "men don't do emotions. women do emotions" thing. you may as well try to figure out why penguins don't fly
<cherylp> BJ, where'd you grow up? (g)
<@SLViehl> It would be interesting to flip this and make your calm male character take some drastic measures to preserve his pride and reserve, Lucas
<Erik and Jasper> BJ: Bologna on the paint. In the heat, that stuff RUINS a pain job
<Dani> You might want to look at why he's so determined NOT to react with anger - does he know he could explode and hurt her?
<Erik and Jasper> good point dani! there's two sides to this
<BJ Steeves> Just some tricks I learned...
<Fredrick> What would set your male character off? What if he called his mother nasty names?
<Fredrick> I mean she
<Lucas> That's an interesting idea. He might be willing to do a lot of things to keep his level attitude in public.
<cherylp> Sounds like where I grew up, BJ. (g)
<BarGnat> Or he could retain his stoic calm during her last tirade... when he strangles her
<Dani> Has he had bad experiences with anger in his family, perhaps?
<Blair> you can do anything but insult his sports team.. that is crossing the line.
<@SLViehl> If he's all about self-control, then he might want to control her.
<Fredrick> Men are often sensitive about their mothers. That could really set him off.
<Lucas> "Don't curse at drunkards for drinking, don't shout at wasps for their stings, do what you must to live as you will, but shock not at the natures of things."
<Dani> Remember you can also be truly hateful to someone while seeming 'calm'
<@SLViehl> lol Blair
<Erik and Jasper> lucas: where'd that come from/
<Lucas> He'd berate himself for associating with her, for ignoring the signs of her crazy nature, but he wouldn't dare show anger toward her simply because she acts true to form.
<Fredrick> Could he be autistic? Is that why he doesn't feel anything?
<Dani> She's a hurricane, he just needs to steer clear
<Lucas> It's a verse from a song I gave him in the story.
<Fredrick> Feel anything about her, I mean. Or is he just an average kid.
<James> I think Dani's point is important -- it's possible to be calm and cruel beyond reason.
<@SLViehl> I think it's more like he's suppressing it, Fredrick
<Fredrick> O.K.
<Lucas> He is supressing. He goes ranting in private.
<Fredrick> That makes sense.
<@SLViehl> and you know what happens to people who suppress their emotions...tick...tick...boom!
<BarGnat> He's equally furious at her and maintains the serene facade because he knows it drives her crazy
<Kay> so does he want tokeep the relationship, or does he want it to end, too?
<Fredrick> Or they become Vulcans
<Lucas> He doesn't actually live up to his own philosophy of acceptance.
<Erik and Jasper> lol fredrick
<Lucas> He only acts like he does.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Lucas?
<Kay> only acts like he does want to keepthe relationship?
<Ari> Does he have some other outlet like a journal or is he just denying it even to himself?
<@SLViehl> I think the flip would be pretty cool -- make him take the drastic measures versus her.
<Fredrick> This couple sound like diametric opposites. She's too emotional in public and he's not emotional at all. Could be a really good conflict there.
<Erik and Jasper> i like it lucas
<Dani> Sounds like a good story!
<Fredrick> Maybe he should break down in public.
<Lucas> Kay - He doesn't want to keep the relationship anymore, I mean he doesn't emotionally live up the philosophy he tries to guide his actions by.
<@SLViehl> thanks all, Erik you're up, then we'll call it a night
<Erik and Jasper> that'd be a cool tension release
<Blair> Maybe if she could get his friends to agree that he was a jerk, then she could get some closure.
<Lucas> Ok, thanks everyone!
<Erik and Jasper>
<Erik and Jasper> ok:
<Erik and Jasper> In the story I described earlier, I'm trying to decide exactly what I want the portray the villain as. First of all, it's a demon, and demons in this world have NO care for humans (or the other lesser races) what-so-ever. How do I take a villian like this and make it as 3-dimensional a villian as I want?
<Fredrick> Make them care about their own kind.
<Erik and Jasper> well that was easy...
<Erik and Jasper> lol
<Dani> Give the demons a well thought-out culture of their own.
<Fredrick> Let us understand how much they care about preserving their own.
<Erik and Jasper> i never actually thought about their culture...
<James> What Fredrick said. Show what they care about and how they respond to it.
<Annie_Oakley> Maybe they like kitties
<@SLViehl> give him an unbearable desire for something....
<Ari> Depth in their culture where they mostly live by what they believe and do care about that passionately
<Dani> Decide why they don't care for lesser races, and play with having one of them break that pattern, for whatever reason.
<Fredrick> And make the humans really bad, but give them a good reason. Cultural misunderstanding.
<BarGnat> or flowers, even
<@SLViehl> make him suffer for it
<Fredrick> Maybe humans are encroaching on their territory and refuse to leave.
<Ari> Do it in a way that if one acted more human they'd be ostracized
<Erik and Jasper> fredrick: it really is the other way around
<Sarah> Make him fall in love with a human.
<Erik and Jasper> whoa, sarah, not happening lol
<Sarah> (unrequited, of course{
<@SLViehl> Put him in a human body
<James> Even, conceivably, show quite clearly why they don't care about lesser species (short-lived, smell, don't get multi-dimensional jokes, whatever) so we can accept that we wouldn't like huumans either, if we were them..
<Fredrick> Or maybe like Nazis they believe they have a natural right to claim land.
<Dani> Make him have an inexplicable (to him) affection for someone human
<Erik and Jasper> these things find negative human emotions like a delicacy
<Kay> Make him/her/them VERY moral about the way they treat other demons, even demons who are from other places, or who aren't rich or famous
<Ari> These demons keep their word in contracts? Humans don't. That would be repulsive.
<@SLViehl> or have him find out a terrible secret -- humans create demons, or something like that
<Sarah> Or tie him spiritually to a human, so that when the human suffers, he suffers.
<Fredrick> Humans are born out of demons.
<Sarah> (enforced empathy)
<Erik and Jasper> whoa sarah... that's interesting
<Labloch> Ohh, Sheila--human fears/desires create demons
<Fredrick> Humans have more mana, more Force, more natural power. Or vice verse.
<Dani> Yeah, find something reprehensible humans do and make demons do it more 'morally'
<Kay> Make them very moral about how they interact wtih their own families, and, oh, have them have "pets" of some sort that might even BE humans or other races, that they treat very humanely, upt to a point
<Fredrick> Like opera
<Annie_Oakley> Ooh, cool Sarah, like the Whipping Boy
<Labloch> the more the humans hate/whatever, the more power demons have, and vice versa
<Kay> oh, too bad, we'r going to have to put down old King Lear. It's sad, but it's our duty
<@SLViehl> I never understood how demons could be evil 24/7 anyway. Must be tiring.
<Erik and Jasper> sheila: demons are only evil because the humans see them as such. I'm sure Cows think Humans are evil 24/7
<Fredrick> Humans have more magic potential than demons, but they don't use it and that pisses off the demons because they feel it is wasted.
<BJ Steeves> THe devil made them do it!
<@SLViehl> too true, Erik
<Kaelle> Maybe he's a collector - antiques, unicorn figurines (lol), something.
<Sarah> He does things like stopping a human female captive from being hurt by his demons / her fellow prisoners.
<Fredrick> Humans gave up magic in exchange for souls.
<Dani> Evil can just be an easy way of saying you don't understand someone's motivations.
<James> Felt that way about Galadriel in the Lord of the Rings movie -- fancy having to be that fey all the time.
<Blair> they hate humans, but just dont have the green thumb to grow the flowers that they really love.
<Fredrick> Eternal souls.
<Erik and Jasper> lol blaire
<Erik and Jasper> (-e)
<Fredrick> And demons can never have souls, so that makes them enraged.
<Lucas> Demons can be true to their own desires 24 hourse a day, seven days a week, that isn't the same as concentrating on being evil. Don't you want to spend all your time trying to accomplish the thing you want done?
<@SLViehl> the demons need humans to produce or get something they want desperately. They are forced to use them for that, and they hate it.
<Fredrick> Humans control the magic.
<Kay> ooo Sheila --- very good!
<Labloch> demons can't travel without humans?
<Dani> Romeo and Juliet, its an unthinking family feud that continuous small acts fuel
<Erik and Jasper> sheila: the humans are there to provide stability in reality for the demons. If there's not enough magical potential in the world, they're expelled from it.
<Kay> weird chatt stuff
<Erik and Jasper> In a sense, these demons can't exist without human emotion to feed from.
<@SLViehl> So the humans are necessary -- that's got to hurt.
<James> If demons are immortal, possibly they hate us because they know we get something good afterlife that they envy.
<Dani> Do the humans also need the demons?
<Erik and Jasper> They take their frustration out on their prey
<Lucas> Or enough un-magical stuff. What if the demons are highly magical, and the humans have to be around as unmagical sentient ballast material?
<Blair> maybe there is a war between the humans,, and the demons must stop the war before too many humans die
<Fredrick> Or going back to the Nazi analogy, they see humans the way Nazis saw Jews, as sub-humans. Or in humanity's case, sub-beings.
<@SLViehl> Or as soul food.
<Erik and Jasper> soul food, yes
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<@SLViehl> no pun intended
<Fredrick> Junk food.
<Dani> I'd also build in some way the humans need the demons.
<Erik and Jasper>
<Kaelle> snarf
<Ari> There's a human thing like the Nazis or some of the slave holders, that you treat slaves worse than animals because they could get ideas of equality
<Ari> Kind of sadism in psychological defense of the institution.
<Erik and Jasper> emotions are delicacies to these demons. All emotions, but the energies humans produce when they're scared, angry, in anguish, etc. are the most powerful
<Fredrick> Or like the Matrix where the machines saw humanity as a virus, an infection in this world.
<BJ Steeves> I'll have fries with that.
<James> Maybe humans use demons as magical batteries. Magic device, plug in a demon which the machine uses up to run, then you need a new demon.
<Erik and Jasper> I used to hate the whole "demons feed on emotion" crap, until I came up with an explanation for it
<cherylp> Don't forget that demons (the kind in the Bible) are actually fallen angels. That kind of failure has got to create all kinds of pain, envy, jealousy, in fact, all the "bad" emotions.
<Dani> lol, James, I had ghost-powered tech in one story
<@SLViehl> humans are a conduit for these demons. Maybe the fact that they need more and more magic and the humans aren't giving it up ticks off demonkind.
<Lucas> The demons keep the humans because of their emotions. Fine. Maybe it's because the demons not only feed off of these negative emotions, but they are also incapable of producing them themselves with out humans to draw from.
<Fredrick> Or maybe demons are really machines designed solely to create out room.
<James> Cool, Dani. Well, not for the ghosts, obviously
<Ari> I like the demons feed on emotion thing.
<Erik and Jasper> I'm thinking these are more an alien race, rather than actually 'Demons.' To a lesser-advanced society, they'd be classified Demons
<Dani> Perhaps humans need demons to inspire their emotional arts?
<Kaelle> James, demon batteries. Cool idea.
<@SLViehl> there you go, Dani
<Fredrick> Maybe demons are really deformed and unborn children who never had a chance at life and were damned.
<Lucas> With no humans, the demons would be on perputal uppers.
<Ari> Predation is understandable.
<@SLViehl> Ack, Fredrick
<Erik and Jasper> cool idea, but it wouldn't work in this setting... people moved into underground citadels to escape these monsters
<Fredrick> Deformed and unborn human children.
<Lucas> They envy humans their full, self initiating, range of emotion.
<Fredrick> I should add.
<cherylp> How about, the demons need the emotions to have any kind of connection to reality?
<Erik and Jasper> there aren't lesser demons... if anything, the lesser ones are the animalistic ones, and they're physically more powerful than the strongest of walls
<Erik and Jasper> cheryl: that's EXACTLY what i'm getting at
<Labloch> you mean like HG Wells' Time Machine, sort of?
<Erik and Jasper> you pounded that nail cheryl
<@SLViehl> oh, nice, cherylp
<Fredrick> Maybe the alien-demons are genetically backwards and need diverse genetic material from humans.
<Dani> I like the idea of demons on perpetual uppers
<Fredrick> Yes, emotion-based reality. Good one, cherylp.
<@SLViehl> demons acting like Ricochet Rabbit, lol
<Anon_78> grrrrrrr. ISP.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Erik?
<Dani> wb anon 78
<Labloch> good luck writing it Erik!
<Annie_Oakley> Anon = popular name
<Erik and Jasper> Thanks a bunch for all the help guys This has been VERY helpful!
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of demons needing humans, for whatever reason. Run with it, Erik.
<Ari> The more complexx and consistent their culture the more interesting they'll be.
<Anon_78> 'tis I, the angry gnat
<Dani> lol bg
<Erik and Jasper> thx sheila "
<Ari> Make them make sense to themselves in their own terms. (g)
<Erik and Jasper> lol WB BG
<@SLViehl> oh, poor thing (hugs Mary)
<Anon_78> sniffle. thx.
<@SLViehl> As we're closing fast on midnight, I'm going to wrap up this session of the TT. You all were fantastic tonight
<Mad-Gnayv> Now I can't even spell my gname
<Dani> fantastic session! thanks guys.
<@SLViehl> big round of applause for the group (YAY)
<Lucas> Wow, it is pretty late, isn't it?
<Erik and Jasper> This has been a LOT of fun, as always!
<Annie_Oakley> Gonna be a big transcript!
<Blair> yea, thanks for the help guys
<Erik and Jasper> <CLAPCLAPCLAPCLAP>
<Ari> Thanks everyone! purries
<Mad-Gnayv> thanks, Sheila, and everyone
<Labloch> thanks everyone and Sheila!
<Erik and Jasper> hehe
<Dani> Nice questions, tonight!
<@SLViehl> Major transcript tonight, lol
<James> It was another good one -- thanks everyone, thanks Sheila.
<Sarah> Well done everybody!
<Erik and Jasper> Thanks a bunch sheila!
<cherylp> thanks, Sheila.
<Annie_Oakley> Whoooohooo1
<Kaelle> Great session - what I caught of it! Thanks Sheila, everyone. Good night and good writing!
<Fredrick> It was fun. Thanks everybody.
<Ari> Thanks SHeila
<Annie_Oakley> Wow, I can't even spell Wooohoo!
<BJ Steeves> THnks to all of you. And Sheila!!!
<Ari> Ack missed copypaste
<Dani> Bye all, thanks Sheila!
<Labloch> night all!
<Kay> Well done y'all. thanks for the extra time Sheila!!!
<Annie_Oakley> See you at the other chat, unless my brain splats against the floor.
<@SLViehl> I'm off to make the transcript, you all have a great weekend. If you have a chance, stop by next week.
<Mad-Gnayv> Good night (huffing out the door)
<Lucas> Good night everyone. I was here more than two hours, and that was with coming in nearly an hour late.
<Erik and Jasper> If you want your own transcript, go to the top of this window and click on Chat, then Save Text...
<cherylp> Night.
<Erik and Jasper> Then just specify where on your computer to save it to
<@SLViehl> see you at Holly's -- night everyone!