Writer's Think Tank #17 -- 05/24/02

<@SLViehl> Hi everyone, welcome to the Think Tank
<Robert> Purries! >^..^< Hi Shiela!
<BJ Steeves> There usaually is a reminder on the site for the Think Tank...Didn't see one today.
<Venus> <does special think tank dance and then sits down 'cause she looks funny>
<@Jim> Hi Sheila!
<BJ Steeves> So I'm wrong again!
<@SLViehl> You know, BJ, I totally forgot about it. First time, too. Sorry everyone.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<@SLViehl> Hey Jim
<Danielle> No worries, you're here, we're here
<Erik Forbes> np sheila everyone's allowed to have a brain fart now and then
<BJ Steeves> HELLO Sheila!
<@SLViehl> My kids were home from school today. I'm gonna blame them.
<@SLViehl> Hiya BJ
<Erik Forbes> there ya go
<Linnet> lol - good scapegoats
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom breaks/whatever, then we'll get started
<Linnet> <lurking tonight>
<BJ Steeves> We should call ourselves the Think Tank Commandos...Sheila's Think Tank Commandos!
<Sarah> Okay, I would REALLY like to know why someone keeps writing BLESS on the backs of all my loan statement envelopes...
<Linnet> boo- yeah!
<Erik Forbes> Sheila: I don't have a question for tonight yet, so if you could, kindly place me at the bottom of the list?
<Danielle> Heya Lucas!
<Jaye> Um... being new at this, I'll just lurk please
<@SLViehl> Sure, no problem Eric. Hey, did everyone see Erik's picture on the discussion board?
<Robert> I do have a question and it's WIP specific
<Venus> hi Lucas!
<Erik Forbes> oh boy
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Venus> No - where is it?
<Lucas> Hi everyone.
<Danielle> Yeah, Erik, real cute! lol
<@SLViehl> (Erik has permission to marry my daughter.)
<Erik Forbes> LOL stop!!
<Erik Forbes> lol
<@James> Hi All
<@SLViehl> You have to wait awhile, though. She's only in the first grade.
<Kay> hi Sheila!!
<Danielle> How old's your daughter, Sheila?
<Kay> I think your daughter's a living DOLL
<@SLViehl> Hi Kay, nice to see you.
<Danielle> hi James!
<@SLViehl> Seven, Danielle.
<Danielle> lol
<Kay> just finishing 1st grade?
<@SLViehl> Anytime you want to borrow the demon from Hades, I mean, Katherine, you're welcome to, Kay.
<Erik Forbes> lol thanks sheila :P lol
<BJ Steeves> 7 going on 17 I'll bet!
<Kay> we "K" people have an understanding, Sheila.....
<@SLViehl> Yep -- going to second grade this fall. Or MIT. We're not sure.
<Kay> MIT probably
<Kay> No questionf for me tonight -sorry
<@SLViehl> Probably. And you know what the tuition is like for MIT....must write faster....
<BJ Steeves> She'll keep the science in science fiction that way.
<Kay> LOL!!!
<@SLViehl> I'm going to excuse myself for a minute to grab some tea. BRB, then we'll put up the roster
<Kay> My 4 year old niece read a whole book to me on teh phone tuesday night
<Erik Forbes> i ain't tellin :P
<Venus> picture picture picture...
<Erik Forbes>
<@James> Hi Catherine.
<Erik Forbes> that's the full pic
<Kay> brb
<Danielle> hi Splodge!
<Erik Forbes> hey cat
<BJ Steeves> ME too....BRB
<Venus> hi catherine!
<Erik Forbes> you get that venus?
<Catherine/splodge> hello, everyone!
<@Jim> Shiela... no questions here tonight.
<Venus> yup - cruddy dialup is taking a million years to load
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Erik Forbes> sorry it's a little big :-p
<Steven> h'lo
<Danielle> Oh, Erik, never apologise
<Catherine/splodge> Hi Steven!
<Sarah> AArgh, phone.
<Danielle> hi Steven!
<Erik Forbes> lol
<BJ Steeves> I'm back...got my refills.
<Erik Forbes> evil!
<Venus> yowzah! Nice pic! I love the mysterious/bite me look you're giving the camera LOL
<Linnet> <shoveling in Manwich as fast as she can>
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Anon_80> Something weird just happened -- am I still here?
<Linnet> okay, now I gotta go see.... Erik, you're gonna get bombarded, looks like!
<Danielle> I see you anon 80
<@SLViehl> slow down, Linnet, you'll get indigestion
<Lucas> Anon_80, you're coming through.
<Lucas> Ah, now you have a name.
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Linnet> <polite burp and an innocent smile>
<Sarah> Canadians ARE too polite -- I just thanked a guy when he said it was okay not to leave a message for my roommate.
<Steven> hey Sheila, what's so wrong about hot pink and electric blue???
<Kay> I don't see yo anon80
<Kay> i see an anon92
<Venus> I think #80 was Steven
<Kay> hello James
<Danielle> wb James...like that, is it?
<Steven> no, it wasn't me.
<@James> It was me -- so I guess that answers my question
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Kay> hi steven
<@SLViehl> Barbie has the market cornered on pink and blue, Steven. I don't want to tread on her turf.
<BJ Steeves> Must be because James is upside down.
<Steven> LOL
<Erik Forbes> haha
<@James> Definitely explains the confusion, BJ...
<Danielle> Blood flowing to brain...must write faster
<BJ Steeves> Just trying to help out.
<@James> And, of course, I keep falling off...
<@Jim> Actually, I do have a question...
<Robert> Barbie has blue anywhere in her stuff? I thought it was always pink.
<BJ Steeves> Its falling back on that hurts I bet.
<Venus> no, barbie has electric blue
<Kay> is that like the electric slide?
<@James> Absolutely -- but it's enough fun in here that I keep coming back for more.
<Venus> Kay> Similar, but done by Debbie Gibson <G>
<BJ Steeves> For sure!
<Kay> LOL
Erik Forbes sheila, I think Jaye's just lurkin
<Jaye> Gods! I gotta think of a question?
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Robert> Sheila - I fixed my blog today. It's purple now and has side links.
<Erik Forbes> you don't have to jaye
<Lucas> You know, this event just makes it impossible for me to eat, or sleep, or get anything else done Friday nights.
<@SLViehl> Nope, I just have you at the top of the sign-in list, Jaye. We can make Emily go first
<@Jim> Jaye - you can always pass if you prefer.
<BJ Steeves> No, if you don't have a question..Just pass.
<Emily> Ack, I don't have a question yet either.
<Erik Forbes> Sheila: I'm happy wherever; I'll think of a question when ya get to me
<Steven> Yeah, I'm a bad influence on other people, apparently.
<@James> I might pass on the question, Sheila, if I may. I'm in cogitation mode, right now, more than anything.
<Danielle> You can always come back with a question at the end, anyway
<Steven> Getting people to change blog templates left and right.
<Jaye> Please, I'd prefer to pass, I'm a virgin at this, lol
<Erik Forbes> lol jaye
<Danielle> I didn't have a question, but I've just cobbled one together
<BJ Steeves> I'm not touching that one!
<@SLViehl> No problem, Jaye. We like new people. And virgins.
<@SLViehl> lol
<@James> Did no one tell you the PENALTY, Jaye? Mwa ha ha ha...
<Venus> LOL!
<Danielle> LOL
<Anon_14> (grin) I've been in nearly two months, and I still haven't come up with one!
<@Jim> BJ: I thought about it, but this is rated PG.
<Jaye> WHAT penalty?
<Kay> Hey who are you anon 14?
<Lucas> I don't know what I could ask. This may change as we go, of course, but for now...
<@SLViehl> No scaring the new person, you guys.
<BJ Steeves> I have to try real hard sometimes to restrain myself too.
<@James> Ohhhhh, you'll find out. It's terrible, it's shocking, it's truly eeeeeevil.
<Venus> Shh, James, don't tell her!
<Jaye> I'll sic my dog on you!!!
<Danielle> Jaye - you have to be the first person to answer one of Fredrick's questions, lol
<Erik Forbes> lol
<@SLViehl> (Smacking James) Behave
<Anon_14> whoops... sorry, I gotta change my name, looks like
<Sarah> <hands Jaye one of her griffin> There. Now nobody will mess with you.
<@James> Ouch. A smack and an angry cat!
<Steven> Robert, I can see the dark blue line on the laptop. Strange I couldn't see it at work.
<Linnet'n'Alix> test?
<Kay> Hello Linnet!
<Linnet'n'Alix> there we go
<@James> Hi, Linnet.
<Danielle> wb Linnet
<Kay> is Alix your cat?
<Robert> I have decided to leave it there and pretend I meant to do that.
<@James> Dog. I have no reading comprehension. Sigh.
<Linnet'n'Alix> dratted telemarketers..... <growl>
<Jaye> Saxon the brave and the Griffin will do nicely to protect my, uh, virtue...
<Steven> LOL Robert
<BJ Steeves> I don't see Ari around either!
<Robert> Cats are my role models. Ari is cuddled in my lap at present.
<Danielle> lol I have a hot water bottle. Loki's too big for laps.
<@SLViehl> Okay, let's get this show on the road. Welcome to the Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl.
<Erik Forbes> Sheila: I'm OK at spot #6
<Erik Forbes>
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Erik Forbes> (sorry! )
<Robert> Yeah but Loki is a dog!
<BJ Steeves> I don't mind cats. but I'm onr of those dog persons. I more comfortable with them.
<@SLViehl> Emily, you're up, then Danielle is after Emily.
<Robert> They breed cat sized ones, BJ
<BJ Steeves> MIne is a Shelty. Big enough.
<@James> If you're going to have a dog, go big, I say.
<Emily> OK, here goes. When you're rewriting, how do you figure out when you should just stop messing with a manuscript and get it printed out?
<Kay> when your friends are telling you to for heaven sake let the think go, let it go
<Sarah> When your alpha readers are threatening to kill you....
<@James> Signs you've gone too far must include realizing your changes don't add or subtract anything, merely change it.
<@SLViehl> Read through once for content, mark, revise, then print it and put it aside. Go back a week or two later, and do a final read-through and edit.
<Kay> what she said!!!!!
<Sarah> When all you're changing are "at"s and "the"s.
<Emily> I haven't had any critiques on it yet; I want to fix what I can before I get critiques.
<BJ Steeves> My suggestion is to get a few "friends" to read it and see what they say.
<Venus> Emily> get the critiques, then fix it
<@SLViehl> Giving yourself the space between rewrites really helps.
<Venus> The rawer the stuff, the better the critique and the easier it will be to change it
<@SLViehl> Good idea, Venus
<Kay> oh. For the love of heaven, get the crits, already
<@James> I'm with Venus, here. Send it out, get some critiques, then do all the fixing at once.
<Emily> I want to do two rewrites, one before critiques, one after. There's no point in letting my friends see a first draft that I know has lots of problems.
<Kay> if it has an end, then its ready for crits
<Emily> Or am I wrong about that?
<Venus> What Kay said
<Danielle> Emily, I'm in the exact same boat.
<Robert> Yur friends will see the ones you don't see. That's what crits are for.
<Kay> yes, you're wrong about that
<@Jim> That's what Holly recommends, too... do it all in one pass -- or two at most..
<Emily> The main problem is that my rough draft isn't even typed up.
<@SLViehl> If you don't feel it's ready to be read, then you're probably saving your critique reader some work.
<Venus> Well, typing is good
<Robert> Yikes! Type it up and do whatever edits you see while doing so. Then get crits.
<Kay> seriously, type the rough draft, but the key to being able to USE the crits for me was that i was not yet WEDDED to the story as it STOOD
<Lucas> Eh? What did you do? gasp Write it on paper?
<Venus> If you're transposing from handwritten to typed, you'll catch a lot of stuff just doing that
<Venus> So send it out right afterwards
<@SLViehl> Emily is adhering to our traditional roots -- longhand. Not an easy thing to do.
<@James> Ah, well, by all means type it up and fix what you can as you go. That's different (I think).
<Kay> it is EASY to get MARRIED to every little elegant phrase and you don't want that because those are the phrases you'll hate yourself for in 5 years
<@SLViehl> Amen, Kay!
<Kay> type, post, gather crits.
<Emily> Yes, I wrote it longhand. OK, so since I'm getting crits on it anyway, I don't need to worry about every little thing before I print it out...
<Venus> Kay is reading my mind <G>
<Robert> lol - maybe I'm not that bad, Kay. That's not my problem usually.
<Danielle> What about fixing up grammar and spelling before you submit for critiquing? Yes/no?
<Venus> YOu should spellcheck it
<Erik Forbes> certainly spell check
<Kay> once you've posted, pick people who've done good crits for others and who are lacking in crits on stories they've got up
<Robert> If you have a bad habit you know you have and usually check for, fix that.
<Emily> I think I was getting hung up on thinking that it needed to be perfect before I got critiques. But the point of crits is that it won't be perfect...
<Lucas> That's true, it is traditional, and there is value to it. I probably can't say that I know my story quite as well as someone who has physically written/typed it out twice. I may have read it many times, but it's not exactly the same thing.
<@Jim> You generally want to do your best, even posting for crits... so I recommend you fix the problems you see first, then post.
<@James> And include a 'don't worry about spelling, grammar, typos' note when you post it.
<Venus> the point of crits is to point you in the direction of perfect
<Kay> crit those peoples stories leaving a clear LINK to your story. Crit them in exactly the way you'd like to be critted.
<Kay> Use holly's crit form
<BJ Steeves> The hardest part is to read it as an editor would, not as yu the creater would. You really need to see it from a distance so to speak.
<@SLViehl> Excellent suggestion, Jim
<@Jim> ... but it doesn't need to be absolutely perfect...
<Sarah> Ditto that. And make sure there are spaces between paragraphs....
<Erik Forbes> that's why you should put it down for a while before you try to rewrite
<Robert> That's where doing crits for other people will help. Doing that puts me in "editor" head and makes it easier to see problems and fixes.
<Lucas> If you can't see any more problems, post it for critique, just as Jim says. It doesn't have to be perfect, just as good as you can make it without going nuts, the critiquers, people who haven't been staring at your manuscript for time immemorial, will help you along to the next step.
<Catherine/splodge> I try to get it as good as I can on my own, then ask other people for help with it.
<@James> Distance provided by time shows up some amazingly obvious errors that you can't believe you missed at the time.
<Emily> OK. It's been finished for over two months, so I think I have some distance from it.
<Danielle> Do you do that as you write, or once you have a complete first draft?
<@Jim> I've been writing seriously for 2 1/2 years... and just now gotten out a novel that I think has a good chance of being accepted and published.
<Sarah> And critiques from strangers are likely to me more helpful than those from close friends.
<@James> Two months is plenty of time.
<Robert> After the complete first draft. That's my opinion - always hit THe End before getting crits.
<@SLViehl> I agree with James -- you've got enough space
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Emily?
<@Jim> Sarah - amen! Friends will either butter you up or be afraid to hurt your feelings.
<Lucas> I totally agree with that, Robert. I have a really hard time understanding the people who post a story sequentially, as they complete sections of it. That just seems really crazy to me.
<@James> Lord, my friends sink the boot in to convince me they're being honest... I keep saying, I believe you already...
<Emily> Thanks, everybody. You've been a big help.
<Robert> That's why I don't post novels at all. Something in a middle chapter may apparently lead in a different direction than the end and changes can wreck beginning or end if reader doesn't have context.
<Sarah> Lucas> It's not totally useless. The reactions I get from people waiting for the next chapters tell me what I'm doing right and what I need to change.
<@SLViehl> My best advice is not to keep second-guessing yourself. Keep your rewrites to a minimum. Critiques are also good.
<Robert> My closest friends don't pull punches.
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks all for some great suggestions -- Danielle, you're up, Venus, you're after Danielle.
<Danielle> Okay. I know story conflict isn't necessarily out and out fighting
<Danielle> but what are some good ways to make sure the sense of conflict doesn't get left out of slower-paced, more gentle scenes?
<@Jim> Build suspense.
<Venus> Listen to KMFDM while you're writing...
<Danielle> KMFDM?
<Venus> Seriously - include reasons why the gentle moments are important
<@James> Provide high stakes even for conversation (if I say the wrong thing, will I lose her love?)
<Robert> Resolution of a conflict is part of the conflict thing.
<@SLViehl> Make the conflict internal. Outside, things are calm. Inside, Oh My God stuff.
<Venus> (it was a joke)
<Sarah> If the gentle scenes are cuts to other characters, leave the conflict scenes on cliffhangers.
<Venus> Use the gentle moments to reveal interesting informantion about the characters and plot
<@James> Hint that one character knows dangerously more than the other. That things are going on the MC might not completely understand, if at all, or know about.
<@SLViehl> Use verbal conflict -- Jane Austen was a master at this.
<Sarah> Two words: romantic tension.
<Lucas> Are you trying to work with the softer scenes and figure out how to arrange them with regards to the violent ones?
<Danielle> Sarah> MC is talking to her mother
<Robert> Hitchcock 'reader knows' suspense, innocent characters having a gentle moment do not realize that will make psycho stalker attack.
<Danielle> Lucas, pretty much
<Venus> Oh, all sorts of interpersonal tension in that situation
<Sarah> Have them talking about romantic interest.
<Venus> Also remember that each character has a goal in the scene
<BJ Steeves> Depends on the conflicts. SOme can be as simple as a disagreemnt on a color to paint a room.
<Venus> To add tension, their goals need to be in opposition to each other
<Catherine/splodge> Yeah - quiet scenes can be used for reflection on the central conflict or internal conflict
<Venus> So each becomes the thing that stands in each other's way
<@SLViehl> You can get into all kinds of subtle conflict between a mother and daughter. Expectations, resentment, ambitions....
<Robert> Someone might make promises they cant' keep and reader can see that.
<@SLViehl> Good point, Venus. Or have them want the same thing, but have totally different ways of going after it.
<Venus> mmm...resentment is good
<@James> Lies are good. Have the character think one thing, say the opposite, there's that little frisson of "will she be found out?"
<Danielle> I was just looking for some general ideas for this kind of scene... these all look good things to remember
<@SLViehl> Eliza Bennet and her mother in Pride and Prejudice. What a pair.
<Lucas> So we're trying to keep the tension up. Ok. For one, when things are quite, people have a tendancy to reflect on the more violent things that have happened. There is the stimulus/internalization/response chain of actions, and if the pace has been so fast there hasn't been much internalizing, the quiet times are when it will happen.
<BJ Steeves> The smaller conficts can be used as a lead in to the strong feelings of a character.
<Venus> Also, backstory can come into play - what past do these two characters share that makes them get at eachother?
<Venus> What hangs over them?
<Danielle> good point, Lucas
<@SLViehl> Nice, Lucas
<Robert> Contrast with major risks reader knows are tehre. THe one happy moment can be bracketed by atrocity.
<@SLViehl> Time to breathe, rest, relax -- time to think.
<Danielle> Yep, Venus, mother wants her to quit dangerous job and be secure
<Danielle> MC is passionate about keeping the job
<Venus> And what does the daughter want? Maybe she wants the same thing, but she wants her mom to get another job first because they don't have the money
<Kay> Mothers are always too concerned about their daughters' safety
<Kay> well, good mothers are, anyway
<Venus> see - goals are in instant opposition
<@SLViehl> Yes. Come over my house, see my ulcer. It has Katherine's name on it. Lol.
<Danielle> lol
<Kay> ROFL
<Erik Forbes> Kay: their sons too... ugh
<Sarah> Is there another child the mother can keep holding up as an example?
<Danielle> No, MC is the last one standing in her family,besides the mother
<@SLViehl> Yeah, Sarah, as in "Your brother never made me worry like this...."
<Danielle> which adds tension
<Venus> major tension!
<@James> Family always know each other's buttons. They can press them in the dialogue. MC thinks her nose ruins her face. Mother: "My dear, good to see you. You've cut your hair. It draws rather unfortunate attention to your face, still, if you're happy..."
<@SLViehl> Then everything rests on her shoulders.
<Kay> that's funny, but it's true, there is ALWAYS a conflict between the child's need for freedom and the parent's responsibility and love which make the parent desire safety, even at the expense of freedom, and the child, especially as the child growsolder, desire more freedom
<Lucas> Just because the child is the only person left in the family besides the mother, doesn't mean that mom can't refer back to people who where there in the past.
<@SLViehl> lol James
<Sarah> Mothers can do it with friends to. "*Amy* is such a nice, respectable girl..."
<Kay> even in the tenderest momeents that's there
<Jaye> Comes under the "If you loved me rule..."
<Danielle> True, Lucas
<Robert> Nah, fathers aren't always overprotective.
<Kay> indeed that conflict is teh CAUSEof some of the tenderest moments
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Danielle?
<Robert> Huh? It causes tender moments? How?
<Kay> not always, but the conflict is there in the father, too, how much should he protect, and how much should he let the child standon its own
<@James> The mother could rattle off a list of all the dreadful things she knows have happened to people in the daughter's profession.
<Lucas> What's worse and more venomous than "If you loved me..." is "If you really loved me, you wouldn't want to..."
<Kay> the desire to protect springs from love
<Danielle> Thanks, y'all, these are as always things I'll go over and remind myself of frequently
<@SLViehl> People show their emotions when they're in direct conflict. That can lead to tender moments, I think.
<Lucas> Thus damning you not only for doing, but for wanting.
<@SLViehl> Allow them both to be right, in their own way, and you give more to the reader, too.
<Danielle> okay, thanks!
<@SLViehl> And thanks all for some great ideas. Venus, you're up, Robert, you're next
<Kay> the attempt to protect exposes the emotion, either in anger or in tenderness and it can flip from one to the other with lightning speed
<Venus> OK - I have a medical question
<Sarah> goody!
<@SLViehl> Sarah and I are ghouls. lol
<Venus> If a church is bombed with Molotov cocktails, is it plausible for a character to end up with three broken ribs, a collapsed lung and a concussion?
<Venus> And if so, how long would he be in the hospital?
<Danielle> rofl, only in think tank!
<Sarah> <handing it off to Sheila>
<@SLViehl> How bad does the fire get? You're going to have smoke inhalation.
<Venus> Also - what about smoke inhalation and minor burns - how long would you be hospitalized for that
<@James> Not another church bombing question...
<Venus> ROFL
<@JimMills> I would think so, but not from the molotovs... from falling or some such.
<Robert> Yeah, maybe something fell on the character.
<Kay> sure, the fire could cause explosions that coudl cause structural damage, but the molotovs are going to be fire
<Venus> Umm...three or four Molotov cocktails tossed into a wooden country church
<Erik Forbes> chaos could cause all kinds of things... maybe there's a risk of him being trampled?
<Erik Forbes> by stampeding people?
<Venus> big cocktails
<@James> If there's a crowd, panic could cause some of those injuries.
<@SLViehl> If you have a structure collapse, you'd incur the fractures and concussion that way
<Lucas> Only if something collapses, I would think. Fire wouldn't do that by itself. Though, some of that could be injuries caused by the other people panicking to get out.
<Sarah> Or getting thrown into something by the blast...
<@James> Snap, Erik
<Erik Forbes> possible burns
<BJ Steeves> Maybe the the sacremental wine explodes?
<Erik Forbes> snap??
<Danielle> flying splinters of wood?
<Venus> The church is crammed full
<Sarah> (depending on how bad it is). OOh, getting trampled!
<Venus> I need the character to be in the hospital for at least a week, and preferably unconscious for three days
<Jaye> Squish City!
<Erik Forbes> right
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<@SLViehl> Okay, trampling would inflict the ribs, concussion, and collapsed lung -- you need to stick a rib into the lung
<@James> From the card game, Erik, two cards thrown down that are the same, you whack 'em and shout "Snap!" Possible cultural difference
<Venus> OK
<Erik Forbes> head trauma would keep him knocked out for a couple days
<Erik Forbes> james: ooog
<Erik Forbes> er, oooh
<Sarah> James> Generally "jinx!" in NA.
<@SLViehl> With the head injury, in a modern hospital, they're going to try to wake him/her up.
<BJ Steeves> SMall coma of some type?
<@SLViehl> I'd have the character slip in and out of consciousness -- add a little spiky fever to induce delerium.
<Kay> put the choir in a balcony loft, and have one of the molotovs explode a structural member so taht the loft falls -- that shoudl get you the injurise you need
<@James> Ah, interesting, Sarah. Mind you, we often have a Jinx in here as a guest, so shouting "Jinx!" would get confusing
<Venus> mmm..spiky fever sounds good
<Venus> Oh - love the loft falling
<Jaye> Don't doctors sometimes induce comas to assist in healing?
<Erik Forbes> sarah: same here, the jinx thing
<Sarah> Spiky Fever sounds like some kind of drink... Or a band name.
<Steven> not coma, but keep them asleep. not the same thing.
<Venus> can they keep him sedated for some reason?
<@JimMills> sedatives...
<Robert> Wake up so we can give you your sleeping piill.
<@SLViehl> Pneumothoraxes often develop secondary infections.
<Erik Forbes> lol robert
<Steven> lol robert. so true.
<Jaye> lol Robert, been there!
<@SLViehl> We don't sedate patients with concussions.
<Steven> It's happened to me. "wake up, here's your medicine"
<Sarah> "Wake up and tell me your name"
<Venus> Ok - I can ditch the concussion
<Erik Forbes> lol sheila
<Lucas> Just because someone is awake, doesn't mean he's coherant. If he's pumped full of morphine because of his injuries, being "awake" might not count for much.
<@SLViehl> Better to take out the head injury if you want to drug him
<Venus> I just want him out and seriously injured
<Danielle> lol
<Jaye> Three broken ribs and a punctured lung will do that.
<@James> Is there any reason why the character could be isolated completely rather than unconscious? Disease fears, or something like that?
<Venus> no
<@SLViehl> Morphine-induced psychosis is nice. Patients react to the drug by becoming violent, combative, etc.
<Kay> burns are a very serious injury indeed, Jae -- all by themselves
<Kay> trauma horrible
<Kay> Sheila help me here, isn't there some percentage that's always fatal or almost?
<@JimMills> If he needs oxygen, they might put him in a tent...
<Kay> Just the burns could be VERY serious
<Venus> so, would they keep him sedated for the burns?
<Erik Forbes> possibly
<Kay> might some for the pain, what do you think Sheila?
<@SLViehl> Indeed, Kay. Anytime you get third degree burns over 30% of the body or more, you're courting death by secondary infection and tissue necrosis
<Erik Forbes> i want to be sedated for burns...
<Erik Forbes> or, i'd want
<Venus> I don't want him disfigured though - a nurse needs to fall for him
<@SLViehl> Second degree burns would require the patient to be sedated but wouldn't necessarily kill him.
<Kay> leave his face alone
<Robert> Second degree is with blisters, right?
<Erik Forbes> venus: a nurse can fall for someone who's disfigured...
<Steven> ah! nothing gruesome, eh? just a couple nice romantic wounds?
<@SLViehl> Yes, Robert
<Lucas> Good point Erik!
<Venus> Ok - three broken ribs, punctured and collapsed lung, second degree burns on legs
<Venus> Not in this book Erik
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Erik Forbes> ok
<Sarah> What if he's burned on his face and bandaged, the nurse falls for him, and then the bandages come off?
<BJ Steeves> Blister...I can get those working in the yard!
<Venus> Exactly steven
<@SLViehl> My Dad had second degree burns over his torso after a diesel engine ignited while he was working on it. Healing time was about four weeks.
<Kay> romance requires beauty as a genre rule -- bummer but generally true
<Kay> OUCH!!!!
<Erik Forbes> yikes sheila
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Venus?
<Robert> Show the heavy person who trampled on his chest in panic. Show the moment of injury.
<Erik Forbes> good idea
<@SLViehl> Head injury patients are encouraged to stay conscious. I'd ditch that. Stick with broken ribs, the collapsed lung, and minor 2nd degree burns.
<@JimMills> Have him see it coming... "This is gonna hurt!"
<Danielle> Have him injured saving someone else...
<Venus> No POV for him. sorry guys
<@SLViehl> Also, head injury patients are never sedated for the first 24 hours, minimum
<Lucas> The person who, in a panic, injures him, might realize it and feel terribly guilty. Depending on your cast, this could be useful.
<Venus> All right Sheila - that sounds good
<@SLViehl> Oh, if you burn his hands, the nurse will have to do alot for him. Nice romantic lead-in.
<Erik Forbes> good idea sheila
<Venus> <burn hands>
<Venus> <taking notes>
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Jaye> <blood thirsty bunch>
<@JimMills> Doctor: "Massage this oil into his hands daily."
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Venus> OK. This is great! Thanks Everyone!
<@SLViehl> thanks all for the great diagnostics Robert, you're up. Erik, you're after Robert
<BJ Steeves> Just his hands????
<Kay> PG - 13 BJ
<Robert> Grim content here, icky villain has used a spell that lets him control MC completely, like a robot.
<@JimMills> wherever he's burnt.
<BJ Steeves> Ahhhhhh.
<Robert> Can i be blunt without being expilcit and refer to sexual crime as crime?
<@SLViehl> Bring it on, Robert
<@SLViehl> Hang on -- is anyone here under 18?
<Kay> 48
<Danielle> 30
<BJ Steeves> 51
<Emily> 19
<Sarah> 23
<@JimMills> 50
<Jaye> 38
<Robert> To break down MC's psyche he will order him to commit rape (and I will get no more explicit than mentioning the word itself. We know that's a crime)
<Venus> yup
<Venus> I mean, nope
<Erik Forbes> 21
<@SLViehl> Okay, Robert -- use your best judgement
<Labloch> (hi all )
<@SLViehl> Hiya Sophie
<Danielle> (hi Sophie!)
<Venus> hiya labloch!
<@JimMills> I take it MC will remember what he did while controlled?
<BJ Steeves> Evening!
<@James> Hi, Sophie.
<Robert> The interesting bit is my first idea was V will then order him to kill the girl. But V could also literally let the girl victim escape, to destroy reputation of MC's familyu as he is part of a clone.
<Catherine/splodge> 25
<Robert> Oh he will remember it all and can't prevent himself from following those orders. He might try to mitigate it but he won't get far.
<Lucas> Is the MC controlled manually, ie each move is acted out by him like a Virtual Reality image, or is he simply given directives and left to carry them out to the letter?
<Robert> Villain can also move him like a puppet.
<Danielle> (I'm getting flashes of Reever in Stardoc!)
<Robert> Villain can direct actions as specific as he likes, like using hi s hand to sign a letter.
<Jaye> Sick puppy!
<@SLViehl> So what's your question, Robert? Or are we interrupting before you can get to it?
<Kay> But might be arrogant enough to think he doesn't need to after a certain point?
<Robert> The question is how Villain can Let Victim Girl Escape without leading pursuers including angry cousins of MC catch up to him.
<Robert> Villain is a terrorist driving MC to suicide in a way that he won't even want an afterlife and will want to destroy even his own soul.
<Jaye> Catch up to V or MC?
<Danielle> Catch up to MC, or V?
<Danielle> lol Jaye
<@SLViehl> Why not let Victim Girl escape under her own power -- trick Villain, in other words?
<Robert> Either. He wants to let the girl escape without letting anyone catch him for it.
<Kay> Yes -- I like that
<BJ Steeves> Does V have knowledge of something the Victim Girl needs to keep secret?
<@James> So they have reason to believe the villain is controlling people, and specifically the MC?
<Danielle> What if Victim Girl twigs to what's really happening, and protects MC?
<Venus> Drop her off a bridge, so she has a 50/50 chance
<Venus> She could hit the water and swim, or die
<Venus> Either way is good
<Robert> He also wants MC to be the one watned for the crime, not him. MC will nto be able to explain and Victim Girl won't be able to identify Villain
<Sarah> Have her escape while they're in transit.
<@JimMills> After the act, have MC roll over with contented sigh and just lay there for a minute... giving girl chance to escape...
<Robert> She turned out to be a stronger char. than I thought which is why she's escaping at all, and might take his side after she knows the truth. She won't when she escapes.
<Steven> Have Villain pretend to "rescue" the girl and then "chase" the MC. Leave girl on her own.
<@SLViehl> Have Victim Girl bash MC over head with heavy object, escape.
<Danielle> What if Victim knows someone's controlling MC, just not who? Delays condemning anyone.
<Venus> Tie her to something, where she can untie herself, but it will take a long time
<Kay> Robert, I don't even understand why there is any danger to the villian -- how can the mc prove he was under compulsion?
<@SLViehl> After the crime takes place, MC could be sleeping. Could be vulnerable
<@SLViehl> Is this magic compulsion? Something that can be traced back to Villain?
<Robert> Villain has to make her escape seem plausible to her but too convenient - and the opportunity has to be simple enough that a young girl he has a low opinion of would spot it.
<Steven> That would make the girl think Villain is a good guy.
<Kay> Are there psychic traces or somethign? I mean if the Villian can use him like a puppet, he just permits the girl to escape by freeezin the mc in place at a crucial moment. end of sequence?
<@SLViehl> Leave the keys to her cell on the MC's belt. Have MC take a nap.
<Robert> Thank you, Kay - there are ways he could prove it if HE escaped by forensic magic but they won't get that close to him.
<Kay> Oh, I see. That does make it harder.
<Venus> Have MC or Villain screw up - look away. She can save herself somehow
<Kay> sorry, didn't understand
<Robert> Villain wants her to get out with hair, fluids, physical evidence and terrible story.
<Danielle> wb Jim
<@SLViehl> Have villain pose as fellow prisoner, who helps her escape.
<Venus> So why doesn't Villain blindfold and gag her and drop her in front of the police station?
<Kay> that's good Sheila, Robert woudl that work?
<Robert> Yes. Villain is telepathic and can make MC look away, in fact MC would be looking for some way to help her get away cause he doesn't want to hurt her!
<Lucas> What if she sees the obvious way out, but because the villian underestimated her and made it so obvious, she assumes it's a trap and doesn't take it?
<Venus> Have him do something brazen to make sure they'll get the evidence
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<Lucas> That could necessitate some extra scrambling on the part of the villian.
<Robert> Oh I like that, because if villain is posing as rescuer, MC knows the truth and knows what this will do to him - that he will now be wanted for that crime.
<@James> Could the villain have the MC perform a "sudden realization of what he's done fills him with crippling remorse making him throw up repeatedly while girl escapes" sort of thing.
<@SLViehl> oh, twisted, James.
<Robert> Nah, MC is set up as looking like evil mastermind.
<@James> Ah
<Robert> But maybe, cause that's kind of cool - if V lets MC react at all that will happen.
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of the villain posing as a fellow prisoner. He can orchestrate everything the way he wants, that way.
<Robert> Yeah. That's elegant - and he could. He's a good liar.
<Kay> Right on the scene -- even the evil frisson of WATCHING
<@James> Flipside, there's always the, "Damn, I forgot my favourite slash up the helpless prisoner knife. I'll be right back..."
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for some great ideas -- Erik, you're up, then we'll take a five minute break.
<Robert> He's not even the species he looks like, he looks human and looks like a different good guy. One known for hit and run heroism and not sticking around!
<Erik Forbes> ok:
<Danielle> lol, saved by evil Superman!
<Erik Forbes> I'm trying to show some tension between my MCs Partner and a group of people she broke with. The MC doesn't know these people, and she's trying to hide the fact that she knows these people... How do I go about doing this? BTW: These people could care less about the MC; they want to torment Illandra (MC's Partner).
<Robert> Thanks for the great ideas! This will work and he's already got the disguise on for toher reasons!
<Venus> well, that's an excuse for all sorts of thinly veiled comments
<Erik Forbes> My MCs have been trapped by them, btw
<@SLViehl> Innuendo -- comments that border on revealing her prior connection with the tormentors
<Erik Forbes> i need to know how they should interact... basically
<Venus> "Damn. I didn't know we had set a trap for cheap trash."
<Robert> She might flat out lie at first.
<Erik Forbes> lol
<@SLViehl> The tormentors would feel like cats, toying with mice. Lots of laughs on their side. Nudge-nudge type stuff.
<Danielle> Can she communicate to them that she wants them not to acknowledge her? If so, would they have any reason to comply?
<Catherine/splodge> brb
<Steven> The immediate thing I think is if they're tormenting her, things they say will likely give away the fact that she's at least familiar to them.
<Robert> Or just pretend to act bewildered.
<@James> Inappropriate physical closeness indicates the relationship, without anyone articulating it to the MC -- creating tension over possible discovery.
<@SLViehl> MC's partner would be jumpy as heck. Waiting for the other shoe to drop.
<Sarah> Good one, James.
<BJ Steeves> Somehow show what each of the group is thinking at that moment.
<Erik Forbes> danielle: If she did, they'd probably tell MC flat out
<Kay> She tries to steer the MC away from situations where she'd expect to see them.
<@SLViehl> MC would be going, what the heck is wrong with everyone?
<Kay> Come up with reasons to leave a place if they show up.
<Danielle> They could take her aside to deal with her separately, and she could lie about what happens
<Labloch> snide comments from the nasties and tensing/freezing/clamming up from MC's partner?
<Danielle> Whose POV?
<Venus> maybe the group itself should have it's own slang, and they both start yapping at each other in it
<Erik Forbes> MC's POV by the way
<Venus> I mean, they all
<Kay> nice Jae!
<Venus> Very clockwork orange
<Danielle> MC will notice very unusual tension from Partner, then
<@SLViehl> Also, the MC's partner might start acting immediately distant and cold toward her -- trying to create the illusion that there
<@James> If it's in a scene where something else is going on, you can play games with almost revelation followed by distraction, over and over...
<@SLViehl> there's no big thing between them for the benefit of the group
<Erik Forbes> he'd see recognition in her eyes when they first meet these people, you think?
<Danielle> Partner might want to mislead captors that the MC is nothing special to her
<@SLViehl> Fear, maybe. I don't know about recognition.
<Erik Forbes> good idea sheila
<Steven> depends on how good she is at dissembling.
<Kay> He asks her about them, or about why she was in a hurry to leave
<Danielle> That can lead to nasty confusion for MC
<Erik Forbes> i was thinking more along the lines of: "Oh great, not these guys..."
<Labloch> MC's partner tries to signal things to MC but MC gets waylaid (and MCP blocked) by the group?
<CiceroCat> sneaks in late
<@James> And, again, you can stack the situation so their environment gives her a reason to have fear or whatever in her eyes, quite separate from the encounter.
<Kay> she evades, not wanting to lie, but eventually lies, but that puts stress on the relationship -- can he trust her what's going on
<Kay> Hi cc
<@James> Hey, CC
<CiceroCat> hi Kay
<Erik Forbes> james: They thought they were sealed in by one of the demonic Fiends.
<Venus> hi CC
<Kay> He confronts her, then he goes up to soem of them and asks out right
<CiceroCat> hi james
<Erik Forbes> that's fear enough hehe
<BJ Steeves> Evening CC
<Erik Forbes> hey CC
<@James> I should say so!
<CiceroCat> hey venus--hey all may I ask what is the question?
<@James> To be or not to be...?
<@SLViehl> The other thing is, the MC's partner may think she's protecting him by trying to make a deal on the side with her former allies. That makes for some nice conflict, especially if the MC catches her at it.
<Catherine/splodge> BAK
<CiceroCat> snerk James
<Erik Forbes> so there might be more relief in her than fear at the point of encounter... hehe
<Danielle> oh Sheila, good idea!
<Venus> nice one Sheila!
<Erik Forbes> ooh that is great!
<BJ Steeves> The butler did it!
<Erik Forbes> cicero: I'm trying to show some tension between my MCs Partner and a group of people she broke with. The MC doesn't know these people, and she's trying to hide the fact that she knows these people... How do I go about doing this? BTW: These people could care less about the MC; they want to torment Illandra (MC's Partner).
<Labloch> nice conflict
<Kay> MC, that is, goe s up to the folks and says directly "who are you and what is going on with you and her
<Kay> at first they evade
<CiceroCat> thnx
<@SLViehl> I'd definitely try to make a deal, to save someone I loved.
<Kay> but then they start telling him PART of the truth, but NOT the part about the BREAK
<Erik Forbes> Man, that'd be SOOO bad for my MC Sheila! He's got a HUGE ego
<@SLViehl> Oh, I like that, Kay.
<CiceroCat> do you plan of having run ins with the group? Maybe someone comes up and says hi MC Partner's name and then she pretends she doesn't know the person?
<Danielle> Gives you a good chance for the partner to be heroic
<CiceroCat> that it's a case of mistaken idenity
<@SLViehl> All good MCs do, Erik.
<Kay> he has something they want, they begin to involve him, but he pays no attention to her warnings because he doesnt trust her now because of thelies
<Erik Forbes> cicero: they get caught in an underground cavern by them. no way for them not to interact
<CiceroCat> ah
<Erik Forbes> man kay, that's evil I like
<Kay> (bows)
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Danielle> he takes the enemies' side over his partners, because he's betrayed-feeling
<@SLViehl> Yes, drive a wedge of suspicion in, and almost nothing can overcome it. Very nice, Kay
<CiceroCat> any past romances between the Partner and the group? that could be soem tension
<Erik Forbes> Cicero: I was thinking about that
<@SLViehl> Whoa, CC. Old Boyfriend shows up!!
<CiceroCat> neat
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Danielle> have a former marriage or something crop up!
<Erik Forbes> could do that
<Erik Forbes> actually I like that a lot
<@SLViehl> more innuendo potential -- old boyfriend knows where all of Partner's birthmarks are....
<Kay> OOOOOO SHEILA, you demonically clever CREATURE!!!!! Of course!!!! Which adds to the distrust!!!
<CiceroCat> LOL Sheila
<Venus> hehehe
<Erik Forbes> lol
<Kay> birthmarks, good
<Erik Forbes> this is great
<@SLViehl> Kay and I may conquer a country one day. lol
<Danielle> Someone who has some sort of legal claim over the partner
<Erik Forbes> lol sheila
<Erik Forbes> danielle: there is no more 'legal' in this world
<Kay> better yet, liberate one or tw
<Kay> o
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Erik?
<@James> Flipside, the old boyfriend may be just sufficiently weakened by old feelings to help her out later, at a crucial moment.
<Erik Forbes> potentially
<Kay> nice, James!
<CiceroCat> sounds interesting ; i like this type of scenario ;_)
<@SLViehl> I like the deal on the side, and I love the old boyfriend. You've got lots of fun stuff here, Erik.
<Danielle> this has given me some wicked ideas for my own story!
<Erik Forbes> hehehe
<CiceroCat> unless they parted badly, James?
<Erik Forbes> thanks for the great input as usual everyone I definately appreciate it
<CiceroCat> maybe she left him, and he's POd
<@James> Even so, maybe he can't bring himself to quite destroy her, or quite cause her total pain.
<@SLViehl> thanks all you devious people. We're going to take a five minute break now, so rest, relax, run for munchies.
<Kay> if they parted badly, he feels guilty about it and ....
<CiceroCat> true
<Venus> I have to go
<Venus> Need the phone
<CiceroCat> bye Venus
<Erik Forbes> Take care venus
<@SLViehl> brb -- must boil water
<Kay> Good night Jae TTYL
<Venus> It was fun! Thanks for everything!
<@James> Ah, see you Venus.
<@SLViehl> Night Venus
<@Jim> Bye Jae!
<Danielle> bye Venus
<Lucas> If there isn't any "legal"... Does that mean that no one respects law anymore? Someone may have a romantic attachment to order, even if he's a "bad guy". On the slightly odd side, what fun is it to play cops and robbers, if there aren't any cops?
<Sarah> Bye Jae!
<Catherine/splodge> night Jae!
<BJ Steeves> "Gnite Venus
<Erik Forbes> lucas: there's no one to uphold it
<CiceroCat> ah so like no police, courts, executive branch?
<@James> Mind you, helping the partner when she's likely to resent help is another kind of harassment all on its own.
<Erik Forbes> hehe thats true
<Danielle> Who/what are this group, Erik?
<Kay> individuals are always the ultimate source of corporate authority of the law
<Jaye> I gotta go too...
<Danielle> Bye, Jaye
<Erik Forbes> I haven't quite figured that out yet Danielle... People Illandra was once a part of...
<@Jim> Bye Jaye!
<@James> Ack, Must get drink. Brb.
<Labloch> bye jaye and venus!
<CiceroCat> even if there is no one official to take legal matters into their own hands; people will themselves
<Jaye> It's been... real!
<@James> Bye, Jaye
<Erik Forbes> bye jaye
<BJ Steeves> Night Jae
<@SLViehl> Night Jaye, thanks for stopping in -- come by next week if you can.
<Erik Forbes> Thanks for coming
<CiceroCat> somene steals from me, hell I'm gonna burn down his house type deal
<RobertAndAri> Night, Jae! Happy writing!
<Jaye> Is this a weekly exercise?
<Erik Forbes> yes it is
<Lucas> Yes, Jaye.
<@SLViehl> We're here every Friday night.
<Erik Forbes> People will; but in my setting there aren't many people out and about.
<Jaye> Okay, see you next SATURDAY for me...
<CiceroCat> night Jaye
<Danielle> See you next week?
<@Jim> I'll be away next Friday... :-/
<Sarah> Bye Jaye!
<Kay> by which i mean if there were no police and no authorities, it would still be incumbent upon us morally as indivdiduals to do the right thing and stand up for and create a system of societal rules
<RobertAndAri> I meant Jaye
<CiceroCat> ah, k; so like something happened and they are recovering or starting from scratch?
<Erik Forbes> probably kay
<@SLViehl> (sitting back to admire Kay)
<Kay> (blushing)
<Erik Forbes> cicero: starting over after 500 years of being forced into underground citadels
<@SLViehl> If I ever get marooned on an alien world, I want Kay with me.
<CiceroCat> In this one novel, these people who were forced to be pioneers held onto some old laws, but they didnt' really have much of a court or executive branch; they did have trials and hearings
<Kay> sheeeee -- iiiiittt
<RobertAndAri> I know the feeling, Sheila
<CiceroCat> ah, see, that's a neat scenario, Erik, I like those!
<@Jim> I have to agree... do something the 'group' doesn't like and find your self out of the group at best... being punished at worst.
<Erik Forbes> cicero: I have the first part of it up on the fantasy crit board
<CiceroCat> what circle are you in?
<Lucas> They weren't unconscious when they were underground, they must have lived somehow, so they had to have something that stopped them from self-destructing.
<Kay> maybe JIm, but we just counted two or three - maybe four or 5 who were with me, nad one of them was Galdr Treebreaker
<Erik Forbes> the heroic fantasy one
<RobertAndAri> They had laws and mores set up for keeping peace in underground cavern situations - harsh emeergency measures codified into custom after those centuries.
<CiceroCat> k.... wait, same one as me??
<Erik Forbes> http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=69470&messageid=1018324152
<Erik Forbes> I think so yes
<Erik Forbes> I'm at the bottom there
<CiceroCat> sorry, lol, I'm so bad about names... right now i'm fuzzing on the name of the circle i'm in
<Erik Forbes> np
<Erik Forbes> Hack and Slash, Courage and Honor: A Heroic Fantasy Crit Circle
<Erik Forbes> that's the one
<Erik Forbes> and yes, you're in it too
<Kay> see --- order
<Danielle> brb, getting tea quickly
<CiceroCat> ah "Hack" sometimes if you forget one name in it, the rest won't come... my mind remembers things weird
<RobertAndAri> Thud and Blunder is its spawn.
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<@SLViehl> Last call for snacks/bathroom/whatever....
<Erik Forbes> that's right
<RobertAndAri> IE crashed and I would have kibitzed more if I wasn't rebooting.
<Erik Forbes> you should check it out cicero I love input
<Lucas> Half-Time!
<RobertAndAri> This also totaled my transcript, so hopefully someone else will grab one.
<@SLViehl> I've got it so far, Robert
<@Jim> I've had three or four disconnects... :-/
<@James> Me too, and quite strange ones.
<RobertAndAri> Oh purr. I think autosave caught all the answers to my creepy question. All good ideas!
<@James> Including one where the chat window started scrolling uncontrollably just before I went.
<RobertAndAri> Ouch!
<@SLViehl> .
<Erik Forbes> .
<Erik Forbes>
<RobertAndAri> Still here
<RobertAndAri> Or was that a cat over at Sheila's house stomping keyboard?
<Erik Forbes> hehee
<@SLViehl> Just realigning my pointer Allright, Kay, you're up, and Sarah is after Kay.
<Kay> I'm a lawyer. If I write a story that COULD have happened in the kind of law practice I was in -- divorce, or real estate, or criminal -- and you live in a town I practiced in once, are you going to start trying to guess who is who in the book without paying any attention to the fact that I made it all up and I said so at the front of the book? I'm afraid you are, but I hope you're not. Please
<Kay> please discuss
<Labloch> real town or made up town?
<RobertAndAri> I would not be trying to second guess which real cases you drew what from. Even if I saw real lines in it I'm enough of a writer to know that might be ALL you took from that case.
<@James> Surely someone would have to prove more points of correspondence than that. With a real case, I mean.
<@SLViehl> I've had mail from patients, nurses, and doctors I've worked with who asked if they were characters in my books.
<@SLViehl> Everyone thinks they're Rogan, for some reason.
<Danielle> Yes, Kay, I think it would at least be a heated topic of coversation
<RobertAndAri> And if I saw a case you lost in RL won in a novel I'd know you were arguing the principle.
<Kay> several real ones, but it woudl be better if i could use one or more real ones b/c of selling with loclal interest
<Labloch> lol Sheila
<Emily> If I saw obvious parallels between the book and something I knew happened, I couldn't help but speculate, I think.
<Labloch> I guess just don't get close enough to be sued?
<RobertAndAri> The more different sources the more defensible your fiction.
<@Jim> If I expect it to be a work of fiction and there is a disclaimer that real people are coincidental, then I won't expect the characters to overly resemble real people...
<Danielle> I wouldn't personally, don't think...but a lot of people might
<CiceroCat> try a uhm pseudonym to publish under if necessary?
<@SLViehl> You have to be careful, Kay.
<RobertAndAri> "But that's also true of the T case, the M case and the K case, I drew it from all of them.
<CiceroCat> yeah disclaimers like they have in movies and stuff would be good
<RobertAndAri> Make some serious cosmetic changes - anything that would change the look of the people. Like make the white ones black.
<@SLViehl> I once treated a Colonel for an embarassing situation in the ER. He was one of the first people who wrote me when I got published, to warn me not to breathe a word.
<Kay> I'm not planning to use a case from real life, but ... lots of people have cheating spouses and beating spouses
<CiceroCat> or combine two cases into one if possible
<CiceroCat> or change the outcome?
<Sarah> I think everyone who knows an author will wonder at some point if they see similarities. I TELL people if I've stuck them in...
<Kay> fears completely justified, then
<RobertAndAri> Exactly, Kay. The more things you're drawing from the less grounds any one person would have for whether you baased it on them.
<Kay> a pity, but truth is truth
<Danielle> sorry, but I think so
<@SLViehl> People make assumptions, unfortunately.
<Catherine/splodge> Don't all novels come with the disclaimer?
<CiceroCat> well, wouldn't that just be "experience" then, not really "basing" it off of anything
<RobertAndAri> People do assume, I'd be prepared to point out the disclaimer and that the problems are COMMON ones.
<CiceroCat> hmm, never noticed, Splodge
<RobertAndAri> "Excuse me, are you saying you resemble that remark?"
<Catherine/splodge> I know if I were in your town and knew you'd published a nove, I would certainly be trying to guess
<Labloch> lol Sheila, now you have me wondering about that Colonel!
<RobertAndAri> If you can keep them guessing but actually aren't doing it that may help sell copies!
<@SLViehl> Being a lawyer is like being in the medical field -- we're privy to a lot of confidential info. People are afraid of us.
<@James> I'm with Robert on the idea of making everything different that can possibly be different, no matter how small, without harming the work.
<CiceroCat> well, didn't Faulkner draw his world and stories based of people he knew and elaborated on them?
<Kay> don't worry, soph, it was actually a sargent major
<Kay> e
<CiceroCat> some of his town people didn't like it, but ....
<RobertAndAri> Any irrelevant detail that you change will stir the pot much more thoroughly.
<CiceroCat> good idea James
<Kay> well, thanks!!!
<RobertAndAri> The other thing I do is get permission from friends to do characters that resemble them and let them know up front, if they are flattered I run with it.
<@SLViehl> I'd just make sure your fictional cases differ from the real ones you've worked on, enough to prove your disclaimer.
<RobertAndAri> But then it's a portrait and not them but a character in the char's situation who just looks like them - like Queen Alison is a little hommage to our Allikat.
<Danielle> You won't be able to stop people discussing...just stop 'em suing
<Kay> If i even knew how many cases i'd worked on i'd be happy
<@James> Mind you, Law and Order sometimes puts up a screen declaring that the episode is based on a real case, and they never seem to come to grief.
<RobertAndAri> Oh if you can't even remember the cases then I'd say you are so far into the clear.
<Kay> oh, yes truth is a defense
<@SLViehl> Easy to lose track, isn't it, Kay? I've delivered 29 babies, that's all I can remember to count now, lol
<Kay> and when the people you're slandering are in jail, they have trouble hiring lawyers
<RobertAndAri> Wow, Sheila! That has to have been interesting.
<Kay> Sheila, I think that's all i'm going to get, and htanks
<@SLViehl> Screaming women, lots of fun.
<@James> So you'd only be in trouble if someone could be recognised and you'd have to add something that wasn't true and negative?
<RobertAndAri> If you're writing about some other person who did what they were convicted of and it's nto their name or the allegation, what makes that slander?
<Kay> I think I've made a decision.
<Kay> Kay House will NEVER write a book about law
<CiceroCat> but you have such expertise in it!
<RobertAndAri> Throw in a second disclaimer. "If you think you resemble the villains in this book, just go to AA. I don't know you but your life's a mess and it's a common problem."
<@James> Oh, no! Surely there's someone you know who can give you specific advice on doing it safely?
<CiceroCat> here's an idea, contact other authors who write fictional law stories
<Kay> I think i'll just head straight into fantasy and go home
<@SLViehl> I wouldn't go that far, Kay, but it's your decision. If you want to discuss it further, e-mail me. And thanks all for good advice -- Sarah, you're up, BJ, you're next.
<@Jim> lol Robert
<CiceroCat> maybe they'll have some good pointers
<RobertAndAri> Kay Scarpetta does these legal thrillers based on ehr real experience I think and it's just a matter of making the character unrecognizable from teh real situation.
<Labloch> Kay, look at John Grisham--lawyer writing about law--but fantastical cases and stories.
<Labloch> (also Lisa Scottoline, Scott Turow...lol)
<Lucas> Law can be in virtually any setting. The less like a traditional court room drama your book is, and the more it's like a western, or a romance, or a sci-fi story, the less likely anyone will notice that it's also a legal thriller.
<Danielle> Or take the legal ideas into fantasy, write legal fantasy!
<CiceroCat> good idea, Danielle
<Erik Forbes> legal fantasy would be very cool
<CiceroCat> cross-genre are in right?
<Labloch> neat, legal fantasy!
<RobertAndAri> There is that too. I can see with your background a legal decision itself could be starting point for a story that's a thought experiment in 'what if the precedent was different?"
<Kay> Sarah, you're UP
<Sarah> Passing
<Labloch> lol Kay
<RobertAndAri> Kay - throw a lawyer into a situation where she has to take up demonology!
<Kay> Thanks everyone!!!! I just needed to know.
<@SLViehl> Okay, BJ, you're up
<Lucas> Shoot, I haven't read about many lawyers who find that knowledgs law is a source of magic power in other realms, but it could work great.
<BJ Steeves> Pass&The Think Tank Commandos last week convinced me to combine some of my story plans, so I need to mix up some ideas into an outline or synopsis to see what kind of story I've got.
<CiceroCat> neat BJ
<Danielle> Law and demonology were made for each other! all those rules you MUST FOLLOW or else
<@James> Good heavens -- we might be on the brink of finishing on time tonight
<@SLViehl> No problem, BJ. Jim, you're up
<RobertAndAri> Exactly. The little thing people don't notice is that demons are creepy FOR being law abiding!
<@Jim> In my story I have a place where the MC gets cut nearly in two, said cut across the midriff, caused by a scythe.
<@Jim> There's a mage with healing ability present, but he can only stop the bleeding... maybe heal some of the internal damage, but not enough to do more than keep her alive a bit longer.
<Catherine/splodge> Yeah - medieval lawyers...interesting..!
<@Jim> Critters have told me it's not realistic, that if someone is nearly cut in two they'll die almost instantly from blood loss, shock, etc. ... what can I do to make it better?
<@SLViehl> Is the spinal cord intact?
<@Jim> yes
<Kay> Jim, have you read Memory of Fire yet?
<RobertAndAri> Was "cut almost in two" a character's description of her injury or an authorial one? A deep gut-cut that might not kill immediately might look worse to viewers if guts are spilling out.
<@SLViehl> Then she can live for awhile, if you cauterize all the bleeders and take care of the peretonitis
<@Jim> I read it about a year ago, Kay... first draft.
<Labloch> whoa Jim
<@James> If there's magic, freeze her first, completely zero entropy, then take your time to fix the damage bit by bit before unfreezing her?
<Kay> yes, well, what Sheila said
<RobertAndAri> Sheila if you're a medieval character without fancy modern medicine how do you take care of peritonitis?
<Sarah> What Robert said. If the mage gets to her IMMEDIATELY, too. Any delay makes things kind of skiffy.
<@SLViehl> You don't, Robert. You die, unfortunately.
<RobertAndAri> They have to hike the patient to a temple of healing (I read this) and she was sorta still at death's door when she got there.
<CiceroCat> hmm, maybe it's not as serious as you think? Or maybe if it was blunt scythe?
<@SLViehl> The problem with peretonitis is it kills now, almost 80% of the time.
<RobertAndAri> Okay, so you can't think of any hack to the peritonitis thing that might let medieval medicine treat it?
<RobertAndAri> Ick
<@SLViehl> Shock trauma is also a consideration, Jim.
<labloch> wouldn't blunt scythes hurt more? I'm thinking jagged tears...
<CiceroCat> what if the mage tries to put the person into instant uhm stasis type thing-- lower breathing and heart rate to near death levels? that'd slow blood flow
<RobertAndAri> But if the intestines don't tear there isn't peritonitis, right?
<RobertAndAri> They could slither out and get pushed back in without that deadly effect?
<Kay> wow -- peretonitis is that stuff where the icky germs in your gut get out and give you gangrene, right?
<Danielle> Jim, how long does the mage need to keep this person alive?
<@SLViehl> In this type of injury that Jim describes, the blade will cut through a lot. Peretonitis is inevitable.
<Danielle> Could the mage instead transfer consciousness into something else, temporarily?
<@Jim> Dani - up in the air... he's not sure.
<labloch> Could you transfer the head to another organism and have the person sorta be saved that way?
<@SLViehl> Robert, the only time I've ever seen a patient get this type of injury and escape peretonitis was a construction worker who was impaled on a 2X4. He survived and didn't get an infection.
<labloch> Magically, of course
<CiceroCat> what happens if they don't pull out the blade, does that make it bleed less? Like in the steven king movie Langoliers, where the knife was left in for a bit? And it the person lived for a while
<@Jim> He's a mind mage... his main thing is healing.
<Kay> so -- either up the power of your mage considerably, or downgrade your wound a lot
<Danielle> Transfer the mind, then...
<labloch> mind-transfer---the mage lends brain space?
<@SLViehl> But the 2X4 miraculously slithered right through everything without rupturing or tearing major vessels/organs
<Danielle> lol Sophie
<RobertAndAri> We have magic in there. Maybe the healing mage can specifically cast a spell against infection.
<RobertAndAri> Wow, that's cool, Sheila! One lucky guy!
<Kay> the hand of God(s)
<@Jim> lol Sheila... ok... got what I need to think about... thanks everyone!
<Lucas> What if the mage sterilizes everything with a spell normally resolved for combat? It could, like radiation, kill almost everything in its path not big enough to withstand the dose. The germs, and micro-organisms, would die, and the character would almost die, but not quite because his body was barely big enough for him to weather the dose.
<labloch> it'd drain the heck out of the mage to heal that
<@SLViehl> You know, a deep cut to the femoral artery would probably do you just as well, Jim.
<Danielle> nice, Lucas!
<@SLViehl> You can keep her alive by stopping the bleeding, but if your mage can't repair the artery, eventually she bleeds out.
<CiceroCat> or if he got smashed beneath something; don't sometimes they live if they are underneat something heavy and only die when the weight is removed?
<@SLViehl> or loses the leg.
<Kay> Or higher in the body, breaks a rib or two and goes into the lung?
<Kay> slices up between two ribs?
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Jim?
<RobertAndAri> The victim is a shape changed dragon. There might be something in her physiology that makes gangrene less likely because of that.
<@SLViehl> Scaling back the injury might work. Or moving it.
<CiceroCat> sounds gruesomely neat Jim
<@SLViehl> Nice, Kay
<CiceroCat> would their be less damage if he was hit from behind?
<CiceroCat> or the side?
<CiceroCat> instead of the stomach?
<@SLViehl> You do want to stay away from the spinal cord, Jim.
<@Jim> Yes, I know that... thanks... lots to think about.
<RobertAndAri> the problem is the weapon, a scythe is gong to make a big cut and not stick in the wound to block breathing.
<CiceroCat> oh, and did this person have any thick protective wear?
<RobertAndAri> bleeding, I mean
<CiceroCat> like heavy leather? that'd lessen how much was cut into, right?
<@Jim> Yes, she wears leather armor.
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for being such ghouls -- Lucas, you're up, Catherine, you're after Lucas.
<Lucas> This is long winded, but I'm probably too tired to be concise, so here it goes...
<Lucas> There is a person who is born from a plant. She is in love with the person who planted/cared for her origin plant, and he feels the same. They acquired a semi-telepathic / empathic bond during her growth. (Her thoughts can travel to him in his dreams.)
<Lucas> However... She is only intelligent because Sean (during the times he had to speak to her) unlike all the other people who buy the seeds, read her books and told her stories as she grew, instead of being deprived of mental stimulus.
<Lucas> All of her sisters are being raised as mindless slaves. She will, I expect, want to help her "sisters" (I think she is slightly linked to them, enough to know why they're growing up mindless).
<Lucas> Their creation is illegal, so after she is created she is technically illegal, and Sean is a criminal for creating her. Therefore, the law can't help them because they would only want to imprison Sean and destroy the plants.
<Lucas> How can her feelings for her grower (Sean) be less than stereotypical? Sure, she probably starts out in love with him, but he's also the only mind she ever knew until after her birth (she had a strange dreamy sort of consciousness long before her birth as a full humanoid).
<Lucas> Any other ramifications of this situation you happen to see would also be appreciated.
<labloch> well, it could be a child-mother/father love
<@SLViehl> Resentment. We tend to blame our creators for injustice.
<RobertAndAri> She'd come to a point of maturity when she wanted to find her own way and started disagreeing with her creator.
<@James> She could return the patient tending that she thinks is essential to life and care.
<labloch> and then she tries to separate from Sean to find her identity
<CiceroCat> well, i dunno, i think that kinda emotions would be natural... kinda like a Florence Nightengale effect
<RobertAndAri> How he took that would really affect the situation.
<Danielle> Resentment: she has to be the one, of all her sisters, who has to worry about things like this - and that's his fault
<Sarah> Show glimpses of people who don't treat the plants like Sean does -- demonstrates why she loves him.
<CiceroCat> she's exposed to another human, a friend of Sean?
<CiceroCat> a lover of Sean?
<RobertAndAri> The desire to separate woudl come first and she'd have to get attached to other people and make choices to have any deeper relationship with Sean.
<@SLViehl> And no one likes being the "gifted" one -- trust me, I would have killed to be a normal, stupid kid most of my childhood.
<CiceroCat> early on? if she can talk to him in dreams, can she see his dreams?
<labloch> hatred and despair? That she can never do enough for fellow plantlings and that she's misfortunate enough to never fit in anywhere and know it?
<Lucas> She has to pass as human, to avoid detection after her birth.
<Danielle> A worrisome tendency to fight Sean's battles for him, everyone must love him too!
<Sarah> Sheila -- I wouldn't have.
<@SLViehl> How would a plant feel? As opposed to a human? (thinking out loud)
<RobertAndAri> I wouldn't have either, the rage I bore toward normal dull kids was immense.
<@James> She might want to raise a plant of her own, testing her own sentience by seeing if she can awaken a plant to sentience.
<Danielle> Tempted sometimes to be mindless too
<labloch> groups tend to target those who stick out...
<@SLViehl> Growth, nourishment, territory -- all plant-type concerns. Light. Warmth.
<@SLViehl> Fear of fire.
<CiceroCat> maybe she can contact another plant, but one with males on it instad of females?
<@SLViehl> oh, nice, James
<labloch> what would she eat?
<Lucas> That's an interesting one James.
<CiceroCat> good one James
<labloch> I can see her now, in front of a field of plants, reading to them...
<RobertAndAri> She might not have a very human idea of love or reproduction, she might want to see if her left foot would grow into its own person if nurtured.
<@James> And if she failed, what it said about her would probably hurt her deeply.
<CiceroCat> she'd also like to stay "rooted" wouldn't she? Not a travelly sort
<@SLViehl> Plants are also geared toward self reproduction. It's their main biological drive.
<Kay> You'd be surprised, Sarah. Lucas, this seems so .... incestuous to me that I'd think she'd relate to him only as a parent, and he'd be doomed, ultimately to unrequited love, or at least to a very twisted relationshp
<BJ Steeves> Would Sean be the "father" ???
<Danielle> Cool, CC
<Lucas> CiceroCat - The plants, illicitly magicaly gene-engineered, are "nymph" plants, so they only come female, and tend to be sold to randy rich old men.
<CiceroCat> ah
<Danielle> Great story idea, but...ew
<labloch> could she do parthenogenesis?
<Kay> yuk
<@SLViehl> Maybe she would expect Sean to help her and her sisters. Demand it of him, after the initial Love-You period.
<RobertAndAri> Plants don't innately have any inhibitions about sex or reproduction though and when I developed plant sentience, they routinely took multiple methods of reproduction as normal.
<Danielle> Why did Sean grow one, then? Begs the question!
<CiceroCat> is there any entity in the ground she can talk to? Like other spiritual beings ?
<CiceroCat> can she converse with animals?
<RobertAndAri> Parthenogenesis would seem natural, sex with beings not her species would too (like bees) and pollination a natural sexual act.
<CiceroCat> btw, is the plant grown to be sterile? only sterile ones sold, like how they do with carp?
<@SLViehl> I don't know why but I think plant-origin humanoids would be completely practical. And driven to survive.
<labloch> man, I don't want to know where her pistol and stamen and pollen is...
<Danielle> She might sometimes believe that mindlessness is her 'natural' state...
<CiceroCat> she'd not be interested in sex maybe
<RobertAndAri> I tend to agree with you, Sheila.
<Lucas> Danielle - Sean grew one because he was tired of his crazy ex-girlfriend. But, because he didn't really desire an unthinking creature, he didn't create one.
<Danielle> Lucas>okay, thanks
<@James> If randy, rich old men are the main customer -- an intelligent one would be unique, able to be used in erm, unique ways... She could be coveted, in a dangerous way for her and the MC.
<labloch> Lucas, I could see some crazy comedy from this
<@SLViehl> This also reminds me of a Pygmalion
<Sarah> All I can think of right now is Zhaan's photogasms....
<Lucas> I like the discussion on how a plant derived creature would think. That's interesting.
<RobertAndAri> Mine are hedonistic and elaborated the urge but don't get embarrassed about it and peculiarly treat bee-type encounters on a par with regular mmal type mating or anything else, including sending off runners - they get affectionate to daughter runners.
<Danielle> If anyone finds out, there may be a vogue for intelligent blooms?
<CiceroCat> lol Sarah
<Lucas> Wow, that's a point, James.
<@SLViehl> Sean tends her to grow in his image of what she should be. Then she balks.
<RobertAndAri> The things they do when humanoid are mimicry and they don't necessarily Get It about social gendering or social customs around sex.
<Kay> Okay, but then this being becomes his daughter and somehow hooks up with the crazy ex girlfriend and SHE turns out to be the one who helps the plant girl adjust, and this makes her less crazy
<CiceroCat> she may be the kind to try to attract others too her, like flowers put out ot attract pollinators
<@SLViehl> Sentience = choice.
<@SLViehl> or it should.
<CiceroCat> so she'd be real showy
<RobertAndAri> Right
<CiceroCat> like bright flowers -- hate grazing animals like horses
<Kay> no choice, no sentience
<@James> Actually, if it's this easy to make one intelligent, there may be existing intelligent plants -- a sentient plant underground, so to speak, with consequences for all concerned.
<Danielle> James, wonderful!
<@SLViehl> eek, James.
<RobertAndAri> She'd have no inclination to anything resembling fidelity, breeding is casting pollen to the wind nad the pollinators.
<CiceroCat> ooh, does she have any kinda self protection? Like thorns?
<Danielle> A root network
<@SLViehl> Hybrids inevitably take over
<@Jim> Hmmm... the plant mafia will try to shut her up.
<RobertAndAri> So you have romance without biology behind it, romance as something interesting and fun that's not instinct driven.
<CiceroCat> she could have a "thorny" personality, not all sweet
<@SLViehl> or die out.
<Kay> once the ex girlfriend has hooked up to the plant girl, it makes her less crazy, and then the original guy actually gets back with the ex girlfriend
<BJ Steeves> Or get drunk and become a "potted" plant.
<@SLViehl> lol BJ
<RobertAndAri> rofl BJ
<Sarah> Make her a carnivorous plant. Sundew-like hair... hmm....
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Lucas?
<Kay> oooo Sarah!
<Danielle> She may just be self-seeding, too
<@SLViehl> A "drosera", Sarah? lol
<CiceroCat> you also have to decide tho, if these plant women can become pregnant. to prevent others from growign their own plants from sold ones, theya re sometimes engineered sterile
<RobertAndAri> Yes. And she'd have a ferocious desire for HER seedlings to be sentient.
<CiceroCat> eee, i like that Sarah
<Kay> a real VENUS FLY trap
<@James> Ouch! Danielle...
<CiceroCat> maybe she's an Air plant type
<@Jim> ... or she could make seeds...
<Lucas> That's a round-about thing, Kay. And almost possible, because he still likes her, it's just that she's dangerous. He probably created the plant girl partly in her image, too, so that could work in some strange things.
<Danielle> Excellent idea, though, Lucas
<@SLViehl> Sean's going to have his hands full. Run with this, Lucas, I think it's a great story.
<BJ Steeves> Shop of Horrors!
<RobertAndAri> Sounds great, yes!
<Sarah> Explosive seed pods, like touch-me-nots....
<CiceroCat> ooh, does she have diff colored hair too? Like pink or blue?
<Lucas> Ok, thanks for all the ideas everyone!
<CiceroCat> and skin color?
<RobertAndAri> And connects with old myths too, the "flower girl" story is archetypal and they don't always choose their creators for love!
<Kay> good luck with it Lucas, it certainly has a pull to it, babies born from lotos plants
<Danielle> Natural predators? Giant aphids?
<@SLViehl> and thanks all, I'm starting to eye my marigolds now...Catherine, you're up, Steven, you're after Catherine.
<RobertAndAri> She might fall for someone else when she becomes human enough.
<RobertAndAri> lol Sheila
<Sarah> Urtha...
<CiceroCat> lol Sheila
<labloch> lol you guys
<Kay> the effects of gamma rays....
<Kay> on man in the moon
<@Jim> pod people...
<CiceroCat> she'd love sunshine and to run out in rainstorms
<Kay> LOL
<@SLViehl> My angel eyes are almost ready to bloom -- maybe I'll throw them outside, too....
<CiceroCat> lol
<RobertAndAri> rofl
<RobertAndAri> I don't have to worry about indoor plants, Ari destroys them rapidly.
<@Jim> are you sure that's not your daughter, Sheila?
<@SLViehl> Hard to tell on some days, Jim, from the dirt...
<Danielle> Catherine?
<Catherine/splodge> Ok - I've been blah and unimaginative tonight, so I have a blah and unimaginative question
<RobertAndAri> roflmao Sheila!
<Danielle> (oh, sorry)
<Kay> highly unlikely
<Catherine/splodge> lol
<RobertAndAri> Cool, but let us decide that. <G>
<@SLViehl> We love those kind of questions, Catherine
<CiceroCat> no question is blah
<Danielle> we love ALL questions!
<@SLViehl> what Danielle said
<Catherine/splodge> Ok - I did what you all suggested about cutting my story off when my MC leaves her King guy and runs away
<Kay> (we did?)
<CiceroCat>
<RobertAndAri> I remember that, onward...
<@SLViehl> (split one book into two, Kay, a few transcripts back)
<Catherine/splodge> What I do have is a little (half page) prologue that introduces a little plot from the next book (the main plot) but its just a tiny hint. Should I leave it in
<Kay> oh, okay. we did
<RobertAndAri> Half a page of teaser isn't a problem, not to me.
<Catherine/splodge> ?? Or is an editor not going to like that
<Danielle> When you say prologue, you mean at the end of the first book?
<@SLViehl> How much of a tiny hint, Catherine? Does it leave too many danglers?
<Catherine/splodge> sorry, I mean epilogue
<Danielle> Ah, gotya
<Catherine/splodge> No - it picks up on a thread in this book - its a tiny discussion between two new characters, no action
<@SLViehl> If it's like Scarlet at the end of Gone with the Wind, it'll work.
<CiceroCat> I've seen some authors use a recap of the first book method--kinda making sure people knew it was so
<Kay> ARe you kidding, Catherine? People put the whole first CHAPTER of books at the end of the last one sometimes!
<@SLViehl> "There's always tomorrow," that sort of thing
<Danielle> If they don't like it, couldn't they just suggest you ditch it during editing?
<Emily> I think that I would leave it in.
<RobertAndAri> Yeah, that's a poitn too. By the time they got that far they'd tell you if they liked it or not, but if they don't see it they won't know to add it in.
<CiceroCat> is this half page DS or SS?
<@SLViehl> If it's only one page, I'd leave it in.
<Danielle> Leave it in, I reckon.
<Emily> Lots of books include teasers for the next one--and I think by the time the editor gets that far, he/she will already have decided whether to buy it or not.
<Catherine/splodge> There is a plot point, but its tightly related to something MC already knows...
<James> I'm sure I've seen similar things.
<Danielle> hi Keri!
<RobertAndAri> Hi Keri
<Catherine/splodge> Half page DS - about fiteen lines, if that
<James> Hell, Frank Herbert's last Dune novel ended on a couple of characters setting the stage for new books, didn't it?
<CiceroCat> Maggie Furey did that I was talkign about; those who don't want to read it just skipped ahead; i guess make sure you have a distinctive label on it or something???
<RobertAndAri> Oh that's so tiny I'd leave it in.
<Danielle> Splodge, they can only ask you to remove it. It can't hurt, either way, can it?
<@SLViehl> I agree with Robert
<CiceroCat> oh, that's so short; leave it, Catherine
<Kay> what Sheila said.
<James> And Asimov did it with his Foundation books -- ending on a character having a strong sense that he had to investigate something.
<Catherine/splodge> It really is just a tiny hint and reinforcement that there is more story to come
<@SLViehl> If the editor loves the book, fifteen lines won't make a difference.
<Keri> Hi, room! (hoping my browser doesn't crash on this window)
<@SLViehl> Hiya Keri
<James> Hi Keri
<CiceroCat> I'd leave it, after all, this is book two right? You have people hooked from book one
<CiceroCat> hi Keri
<Catherine/splodge> I want there to be some connection betwee book one and two
<CiceroCat> i'd leave it...
<RobertAndAri> That looks like a good connector.
<@SLViehl> Life doesn't resolve itself in twenty chapters. That's my philosophy
<Catherine/splodge> CC - sorry this is an epilogue for book one...
<Catherine/splodge> giving a tiny hook for book two
<Kay> what Sheila and Robert and CC and Danielle and James and Ari ALL said. Leave it in. If they don't want it they'll cut it. it's at the end. they've either bought the book or not by now
<BJ Steeves> Worst case scenario is that you'll be asked to take it out...I'd leave it.
<CiceroCat> ah epilogue---doesn't really change my opinion, it's now more of a hook than ever
<RobertAndAri> Exactly, BJ
<CiceroCat> and i like connectors
<Kay> me too
<CiceroCat> iguess one q to ask, if you're still not sure, what i will happen if you take it out
<Emily> And I think it reinforces the idea that there is another book coming.
<@SLViehl> It's also a nice way to set up selling the second book, when the editor asks, "What's the epilogue for?"
<CiceroCat> yeah, some people hate cliffhangers
<Catherine/splodge> But as i said, its minor - no huge plot clues or cliffhangers the audience doesn't already know about
<James> Worst case scenario probably involves the editor being an anti-epilogue serial killer with dark magical powers... but they're more likely to just ask for it gone if it's a problem.
<@SLViehl> Emily and I are mind melding
<Emily> As a reader, sometimes I'll like a book, but not buy the sequel because a year later I forget there was supposed to be another book.
<@SLViehl> lol James.
<RobertAndAri> rofl James!
<CiceroCat> lol James
<Danielle> lol James
<@SLViehl> Time -- any last comments, suggestions for Catherine?
<RobertAndAri> The Epilogue Murders - you've got to write that!
<Catherine/splodge> LOL
<CiceroCat> i'd leave it; btw, do you have a prologue too?
<@SLViehl> I'd leave it. It's not large enough to make a big difference in the whole novel picture.
<James> I'll add it to the list
<Catherine/splodge> Yes, I have a prologue, but its a vital prologue
<Catherine/splodge> It can always become chapter one
<CiceroCat> k; i just wondered, since i rarely see one without the other
<the DragonBard> Hello
<Danielle> hi DB
<RobertAndAri> Hi DB
<@SLViehl> Hi DB
<CiceroCat> be a nice balance to a pro, the ep would be
<Catherine/splodge> Just there is a large time break and I need to differentiate it from the rest of the novel
<Kay> Hello DragonBard
<Catherine/splodge> (the prologue, that is)
<Catherine/splodge> Hi DB
<CiceroCat> ah
<the DragonBard> Went to chat, and seeing almost no one was there, thought I'd see what you were up too.
<CiceroCat> hi DB
<Kay> oh shit, word war!
<@SLViehl> thanks all for unifying on the issue -- Steven, you're up, Sophie, you're after Steven
<RobertAndAri> Yep, tonight.
<Catherine/splodge> Well, thanks everyone!! Especially after I've been useless
<labloch> hi DB
<the DragonBard> watch out for the vowel missles
<Danielle> Useless? Never!
<@SLViehl> Never that, Catherine.
<CiceroCat> never useless, Splodge
<Steven> Alright.
<Catherine/splodge> <g>
<CiceroCat> and tossed keyboards of frustration
<Kay> Dear Catherine. Please give yourself a break. You're good people. We like you.
<the DragonBard> That's true.
<RobertAndAri> Definitely anything but useless, Catherine
<James> What they all said!
<CiceroCat> these the last two Sheila?
<@SLViehl> Careful, Catherine, we'll give you a group hug. lol
<Danielle> Splodgy and somewhat maroon, but not useless <g>
<Lucas> DragonBard - Yes, the "A"s are pointy...
<RobertAndAri> You give me hope for all my chainsaw rewrites! You're good for morale!
<Kay> ooooo GROUP HUUUUUUG
<@SLViehl> I can add you on, CC, got a question for us?
<Catherine/splodge> I get nights when I look at think tank and think HUH? all the way through it
<labloch> CC can take my spot
<CiceroCat> nope, no q, i was just wondering
<BJ Steeves> We can give Catherine a 'potted" plant later.
<labloch> I don't have a Q
<Kay> and one for Sheila, too, jiust for doing the Think Tanks and all!!!
<Erik Forbes> noo, i try to stay out of group hugs
<Erik Forbes> hehe
<Catherine/splodge> <stuffing spurts in all directions> YELP!
<CiceroCat> i like these and i wished i came earlier
<Steven> Okay, you know what? My mind is a total blank. I can't come up with a question and since there's people after me, I'll just pass.
<Danielle> I only get like that with Fredrick's questions!
<RobertAndAri> lol BJ
<@SLViehl> Sophie, are you passing?
<Catherine/splodge> LOL, BJ
<labloch> Yep!
<James> Fredrick's missing -- I'd wondered what was wrong...
<labloch> Pass to CC
<@SLViehl> No problem, Steven. Go ahead, Sophie
<Danielle> They're great questions, but so mindboggling!
<@SLViehl> Whoops -- okay, CC, got one for us?
<CiceroCat> I don't have a q for once lol, sorry, but thanks for offering
<@SLViehl> (I missed the yes or no)
<Steven> A bit more tired than
<Steven> I thought
<@SLViehl> Which means, ack, we're wrapping up on time tonight!
<Danielle> NOOOO
<James> It's unprecedented!
<Keri> wow.
<Lucas> Amazing.
<@SLViehl> Thanks to all of you for another terrific session
<RobertAndAri> Ari purrs and bashes everyone.
<labloch> whoot!
<CiceroCat> sniffles
<Kay> Good right on time, and a WORD WAR to go to!!!!
<RobertAndAri> Amazing!
<CiceroCat> lol
<Keri> eep. Word War?
<BJ Steeves> Think Tank Commandos do it again!
<Lucas> Thanks for all of the interesting ideas. I see that it will benifit me to inquire some more into the realms of plant psychology.
<James> Returning the thanks -- it was short but sweet
<the DragonBard> See you in chat everyone.
<Catherine/splodge> Yipes!
<@SLViehl> Keep us updated, Lucas, that story sounds really cool
<RobertAndAri> Thanks to everyone for the help on Planned Escape!
<Emily> Word war, hmm? I might join in.
<Erik Forbes> see you guys in chat I have some reflecting to do
>Sarah< Sure. want to go to conference room two?
<Kay> Thanks, Sheila!!!!!
<CiceroCat> btw, since plants go in rhytms Lucas, or energy cycles kinda; and there are biorhythms in humans, that might be a neat thing to explore
<Erik Forbes> sheila: Thanks for another great session
<Danielle> Thanks all for the mother/daughter help, too
<Keri> I'm going to have to try to get here more often, and on time - now that it sesms I don't crash on entry.
<CiceroCat> maybe wintery months she's real depressed
<labloch> thanks again Sheila and Think Tankers!
<RobertAndAri> Thanks, Sheila!
<Kay> oh, transcript, got it or need it?
<Catherine/splodge> Thanks so much, Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Okay, hope to see you all next week -- I'm going to make a transcript now, Kay, thanks.
<RobertAndAri> Mine crashed, I'll copy the one that makes it to the boards.
<CiceroCat> cya all and it was fun
<Kay> thanks, again!
<Danielle> bye all
<@SLViehl> You all have a great weekend -- Robert, I'll e-mail you a copy -- and see you later