Writer's Think Tank #18 -- 05/31/02

<@SLViehl> Evening everyone
<JamiJo> Howdy Sheila
<Kaelle> Hey Sheila!
<Gerri> heya, sheila
<Danielle> Hi Sheila!
<JamiJo> I have returned
<Linnet> Helo Teach!
<Robert> Hi Shiela!!!!! Purries <bash> Purr!
<Fredrick> Hello, Sheila
<Anne_Marble> Hello!
<beard> Howdy Sheila
<@SLViehl> Group hug for JamiJo {hug}
<JamiJo> hee hee hee
<Robert> <<hugs JamiJo>>
<Kaelle> (hug))
<Danielle> <big hug>
<@SLViehl> Is that OUR ROBERT?
<Anne_Marble> <<<hug>>>
<Robert> (Ari) <<hugs JamiJo without claws>>
<Anne_Marble> Ypu
<beard> ;;hug;;;
<Robert> Yes! I'm back!
<@SLViehl> Wait, I have to give Robert a special hug {Missed You!}
<beard> Are we allowed to compliment the teacher?
<Robert> Purrrrrrrrr (loud Harley Purring)
<@SLViehl> Sure. I take checks, too
<BarGnat> lol
<Kaelle> lol
<Fredrick> Rain checks?
<beard> Love the shockball series!!!!
<@SLViehl> Seriously, thank you, beard
<Robert> I'm not transcribing though, memory is still scanty compared to everything, to my frustration.
<beard> stardoc, sorry just finished the latest
<Kay> PLease note that i have NO QUESTION tonight. Thank you.
<Anne_Marble> Blackmask.com put up an old novel tonight called "Full title: The Inheritance of Evil, Or, the Consequence of Marrying a Deceased Wife's Sister." Wow, I wonder what the plot is about? ;->
<Danielle> hi Sarah
<BarGnat> Nor do I, Sheila...
<@SLViehl> I'll save transcripts for you, Robert. Just let me know when you want them.
<Robert> I do have a question even if I'm still formulating it for brevity.
<Sarah> Hi!
<Kaelle> lol Anne
<Fredrick> It's about rabbits.
<JamiJo> Yeah, same here, no question
<Kaelle> Hi Sarah!
<Gerri> I do have a question... shocks herself
<Robert> Purr purr - hotmail box weeded this afternoon!
<Anne_Marble> Rabbits wearing little tutus
<Danielle> No question for me either - head cold, but no question
<BarGnat> heehhe, Anne
<allikat> no question for me, either
<Fredrick> Why were some Victorian writers so crazy about long titles?
<JamiJo> ewwww... feel better, Danielle
<@SLViehl> Poor Dani, hope you do feel better
<Danielle> thanks JamiJo
<beard> I don't think I have a question
<Anne_Marble> Maybe people liked knowing what it was about before buying it.
<beard> that would explain much
<Anne_Marble> sheila> I don't know what I want to ask yet.
<Jebbo> Dr. Bloodmoney. Or how we got along after the bomb. P.K. Dick. . . he was victorian?
<@SLViehl> I've put up the rules, for all our new folks -- and this is last call to make a run for beverages/bathroom/snacks/whatever
<Fredrick> Oh, I guess they didn't have Booklist back then.
<@SLViehl> No problem, Anne. I'll put you up on the roster, and when we get to you if you want, just pass
<Anne_Marble> Who needed Booklist with titles like "The Inheritance of Evil, Or, the Consequence of Marrying a Deceased Wife's Sister"?
<Linnet> it was way back before blurbs, wasn't it
<BarGnat> lol
<beard> would you like a drink Sheila? I made chocolate martinis
<James> Hi all
<Fredrick> No, PK Dick was pretty contemprary 1950's,60,70 and 80's. Dick died in 1982.
<BarGnat> Hi, James
<@SLViehl> No alcohol for me -- I'm a lightweight
<Danielle> heya James
<beard> Hi James
<Kaelle> um... sounds interesting, beard. Hi James!
<Fredrick> You couldn't get away with a title like that today. Too bloated.
<beard> ah, if you go to ReaderCon in July I'll be mixing them, I'll make you a small one
<Anne_Marble> Maybe as a parody. it's about as long as some of the Harlan Ellison titles.
<Fredrick> A title I'd like: Kiss Me Before I Shoot You
<James> You could do a title like that sarcastically, like Moore's "Island of the Sequined Love Nun."
<Danielle> Beard - apart from the obvious, what's in a choc martini?
<Kaelle> snarf
<beard> They Fight crime!
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Robert> lol
<Danielle> lol
<JamiJo> oh, no, not TFC again....
<Anne_Marble> I liked "'Hello' she lied."
<beard> vanila vodka, godiva liqueur, grand marnier and ice
<BarGnat> Beard is the guy who started that whole thing
<BarGnat> the TFC thing
<Robert> Mm that sounds good.
<beard> oh, no I didn't The were-mouse did
<beard> I just ran with it
<Danielle> Anne, lol
<Kaelle> "The were-mouse"?
<BarGnat> Well, yours was the first short story taken from the site
<beard> Your ball Mary
<@SLViehl> BTW, group, we're having a pretty bad thunderstorm here. So if I get knocked offline, carry on without me.
<BarGnat> Nom de Bar of a gentleman named Michael B. Caffery
<Fredrick> We had a bad thunderstorm just a while back.
<Robert> I had one earlier, went offline and it went through fast so I came back.
<Danielle> wah, good luck, Sheila
<beard> Where are you at.
<beard> I just got through some too
<@SLViehl> I'm in South Florida, beard
<Fredrick> It happened while I was writing. Lost about 200 words.
<Kaelle> okey-dokey, Sheila. I got mine this morning.\
<Anne_Marble> Ooooh, big sale at fictionwise.com. Alert! Alert!
<@SLViehl> argh, don't you hate that, Fredrick
<beard> ewwww frederick, I'm sorry for your loss
<Robert> That's annoying.
<Sarah> Wow, you too, Sheila? <looking at sky>
<Fredrick> It could have been worse.
<Robert> Happened to me during Quest once too.
<Fredrick> Thankfully I made it up later.
<Anne_Marble> 20% off all multiformat e-books (unencrypted) and 15% off all secure Mobipocket eBooks!
James Thanks
<Fredrick> I wonder if Mother Nature has a hotline for writers
<@SLViehl> I lost three chapters once -- taught me to do hourly backups.
<Robert> I pray to Thor. He's usually good at that.
<Linnet> I know Satan does... I curse frequently enough to need my own line
<Anne_Marble> Argh!!! The evil has struck! Sorry, Fredrick.
<allikat> gah. back. kicked myself out.
<Danielle> wb Allikat
<Robert> And RoughDraft has autobackup so the only thing I lost in a crash was about 60 words between autosaves.
<Fredrick> I thought Thor struck people on the head with that hammer of his.
<beard> I hate to say I write on a separate laptop
<Robert> Oh drool. lol
<beard> Thor is also a fertility god
<Robert> Someday...
<Kaelle> double drool
<Fredrick> I'm just glad it wasn't 1,000 or 3,000 words.
<Robert> Fertility of book production is a GOOD thing.
<beard> not that kind, he wasn't supposed to be very bright
<@SLViehl> I caught that Danielle and Kay have no questions tonight, but is there anyone else who does NOT have a question for the group?
<Fredrick> That would have been annoying.
<Jebbo> I also use a separate laptop . . . just got wireless lan so I can write on the sofa too!
<Sarah> I don't.
<Linnet> I'll probably come up with one.... eventually.
<Robert> Thor's very bright! Some of Thor's stories are clever ones.
<Kay> Mary, do you ?
<BarGnat> I do not have a question, Sheila
<James> I won't tonight, Sheila, thanks. Not enough work done this week to generate one
<beard> I do not have a question tonight
<BarGnat> No, Kay... I'm still euphoric from finishing the rewrite
<Anne_Marble> I might have a teensy one after all Sheila. ;->
<Fredrick> Oh. Never read Thor.
<Danielle> James, chapter one finished though!
<@SLViehl> All these devoted TT regulars -- they attend even if they don't have a question
<Jebbo> Sheila: put me late on the list; I have no question now, but one may come to me
<allikat> I do not have a question, Sheila
<Fredrick> I did see him in Adventures in Babysitting, though
<Kaelle> I actually have a sorta kinda question this week. (g)
<Fredrick> With Elizabeth Shue.
<Anne_Marble> Somebody I'll read those Icelandic thingies. They're really big though.
<Danielle> Same as Jebbo, Sheila, something may occur during TT
<James> Yes, Danielle -- I was exceptionally pleased about that. The only thing that made the week not a total washout, really
<Kay> Congrats on finishing the rewrite BG .. got it and got it unzipped. Itching to jumpin, too, BG.
<JamiJo> I don't, Sheila
<Anne_Marble> ack, left Palm in other room, gasp gasp gasp BRB
<BarGnat> Sigh. Already caught two clunkers I missed in the infamous "polishing"
<beard> Sorry Mary, I'm here tomorrow I'll read it tomorrow
<Robert> I love those Icelandic things and want to read all of them and reread the ones I have. And maybe even steal some plot bits.
<Jebbo> Palm . . . <spit> buy a PocketPC device, my chips are in those
<beard> Robert great plot bits with the valkyries
<Robert> Oh yeah.
<Danielle> aw, Jebbo, you have chips, now I'm hungry
<Kay> Personally, I can NEVER catch everything in my own work, BG. I'm just too much inside it.
<Robert> Look at what Wagner got out of it! lol
<@SLViehl> Remember, if you don't have a question now but think of one, I can always add you to the roster later on.
<BarGnat> yes'm, and thank you
<Sarah> Oh, wait, maybe I do...
<BarGnat> (g)
<beard> snork
<Kay> ditto to the yes'm and thank you
<@SLViehl> All right, let's get started -- welcome to the weekly Writer's Think Tank (gotcha Sarah), I'm your host, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl
<@SLViehl> Fredrick is up first tonight, then Kaelle is after Fredrick.
<Fredrick> All right, I'll have the question up in a second.
<Fredrick> I was thinking about a culture that has elevation-based speech and verbs and I was wondering how elevation might contribute to a language. Like high verbs and low verbs?
<Fredrick> How could altitude affect speech?
<Fredrick> Not just physically, but mentally?
<Robert> I was just going to ask, do you mean altitude or status?
<Gerri> gack
<@SLViehl> Lung capacity would be my first research area. And cause and effect of low oxygen levels on brain tissue.
<James> See that's the sort of question we missed last week
<Robert> High altitude the air's thinner. High altitude speech might be more concise.
<Linnet> Is that kind of like saying how could snow affect the Eskimo's smpeech? they have several hundred words for describing the color white
<Kaelle> Fredrick's question are always a brain stretcher for me. (g)
<Gerri> no, they don't, Linnet!
<Fredrick> Also socially, as well. Like highspeakers and lowspeakers. Midspeakers.
<Jebbo> Pitch is a good start; high notes at altitude, low note lower (or maybe the other way around)
<Linnet> no?
<Gerri> no.
<Anne_Marble> They would have 500 words for "look out for that step!!!!"
<Linnet> My mistake
<Robert> I'm mentally comparing Highland burr to Louisiana drawl.
<Gerri> common folk story
<Anne_Marble> Could they have yodels for communications over distances?
<Robert> Lowland speech, low speech would be slow and colorful and descriptive perhaps.
<Fredrick> Not just sound. Perhaps light as a means of communication.
<@SLViehl> High altitude makes demands on the human body, as we're built more for the tropical climes.
<Gerri> sounds that carry easier on the air.
<Jebbo> on vocabulary, different ecosystems, perhaps extremely so. With a high enough gravity gradient, maybe even different atmosphere
<Gerri> they're going to be more aware of how sounds echo.
<Fredrick> Maybe high light and low light.
<Gerri> vocabulary will be very different, esp. if they're not immigrants.
<Fredrick> Or skin color. High people could have different skin pigments.
<BarGnat> sound as a function of light? is that where you're headed?
<James> Socially, the altitude with the greatest advantages will be the language of status. That would lead words which related to that level to be used as positives.
<Robert> Oh I like that "low light" - that's powerful stuff!
<Fredrick> They could use skin as a language.
<Linnet> and what said echoes do to the surrounding areas.... avalanches and whatnot
<Anne_Marble> If there's a danger of avalanche, they might use a quieter language in some areas.
<Fredrick> Yes, good idea
<@SLViehl> Lung capacity among high altitude cultures is larger than sea-level dwellers -- the lungs have to take in more air to get more oxygen at elevated heights.
<Robert> The light signaling in lieu of shouts in avalanche areas. Highlanders taciturn and more given to that sort of thing.
<Sarah> If you have bigger lung capacity, you can draw out sounds a lot longer...
<Sarah> And sing higher.
<Robert> And highlanders would be more adapted to cold too.
<Danielle> Light signal courtship
<Linnet> low sounds carry a lot farther than high ones
<@SLViehl> Yet they'd probably be pretty economical with their speech, to conserve calories, always a problem in high altitudes.
<Fredrick> Or maybe a language based on molting or shedding skin. Lowlanders consider highlanders hideous because they have shedable languages.
<James> Air pressure on the vibrating membrane which produced speech could be the physical means of differentiating. Or everyone could talk the same and the difference could be in how it's heard at different altitudes.
<Gerri> lots of sign language.
<Robert> It sounds as if visual, written and displayed language is more important to the highlanders.
<Anne_Marble> How do Shirkas speak? (There aren't many in Columbia or Linthicum...)
<Fredrick> I was also thinking of lack of communication. Which might cause conflict.
<@SLViehl> Are you looking for a verbal or a corporeal language, Fredrick?
<Sarah> That could be used well... THeir usual speech is short and economical, but they're capable of HUGE sounds when they need them...
<Robert> They're taciturn so everything they've got carries a lot more meaning per word, their language more poetically concise.
<Fredrick> Right now I'm open to both options.
<Robert> Like runes, apparently simple and not all that simple when you know all the connotations.
<Anne_Marble> Like Spanish-speaking people going to Portugal and getting in trouble because some normal words in Spanish are obscene in Portuguese.
<Fredrick> There could be different forms of elevation-speech for different occasions.
<Danielle> Shaven patches in their pelts dyed to show meaning
<Jebbo> How different are the two environments? I can imagine some really bizarre worlds
<Danielle> Visible from far off
<Robert> While lowlanders are the other sort of poetry, the lengthy descriptive musical inflected language that pays attention to nuances.
<Sarah> If you have sparser speech, your art forms would probably be a lot more physical. Tai-chi type dance, etc.
<Fredrick> Sometimes vocal, sometimes not.
<Anne_Marble> (I keep having images of "Otsi" walking up the mountain with an unstrung bow.)
<Jebbo> peaks in vacuum, depths with thick soupy atmosphere
<James> Maybe vibrating membranes are in the skin surface and the way they're vibrated or even inflated or deflated produces different sounds and meaningful patterns of swelling and depression in the skin?
<Fredrick> Higher up would be more brutal. Lots of snow and ice. Harsh. Lower lands more fertile.
<Robert> And the deceptively simple "runic poetry" speech is translated directly into the visual media and writing itself. They speak their rune-sounds.
<Fredrick> Or maybe lowlands could be tone deaf and highlanders could be snow blind.
<BarGnat> would the verbs available to each group indicate caste in any way?
<Fredrick> And they both can't speak.
<Robert> Music would be so different in style that it would have different instruments, number of tone deaf probably about the same.
<Fredrick> Yes, they would indicate different social rankings.
<@SLViehl> Harsh living conditions requires more unification of the tribe. And they'd have to have a reason to stay there, and not move to warmer, more livable climes.
<Robert> That would make hospitality a vitally important cultural value to highlanders,
<Anne_Marble> One of the groups could have those big long horns...
<Fredrick> Better off people could have more conjugation rights.
<beard> good thought
<Robert> while lowlanders more likely to shoot trespassers than offer hospitality to strangers.
<Jebbo> Is there conflict between the two groups?
<Sarah> Highlanders would likely use percussive, stringed, or cranked instruments rather than brasses or wind instruments...
<beard> hospitality, and low to the ground construction of homes
<Robert> Highlands that harsh, rescue is probably a primary obligation for ALL members of society if someone's caught in natural disaster.
<Fredrick> Yes, they have conflicts. Right now I'm just developing this idea for possible inclusion.
<Fredrick> Into another story.
<Fredrick> Midlanders could work as diplomats.
<Robert> But of course there's conflict with those cultural values of hospitality and rescue.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Fredrick?
<beard> why do the highlanders stay were they are?
<Fredrick> Adapted to elevation and climate. Tough to live in lower lands.
<Linnet> maybe they're farming something that can only be grown at high altitudes. They would have a monopoly
<Jebbo> Feels a bit Darkovan to me . . .
<Fredrick> Air is too thick.
<James> Ex-freed slaves, marginalized, took the only land that was left and adapted to it?
<beard> A little, darkovan, not a bad thing,
<@SLViehl> I'd set up your languages and speech capacity according to the trade needs of your culture clusters. If they're going to be free traders, they need to communicate.
<Robert> No, it's true for some people and so is cold-climate v. hot climate. I've had roommates who got sick at temps that I needed or I'd get sick.
<Fredrick> There could also be cultural taboos. Lowlands is dark realms.
<Fredrick> Bad place.
<Robert> Midlanders would be the traders.
<Robert> Makes sense because lowlanders are sinful by some highland culture values.
<BarGnat> and the only means of communication between the other two
<@SLViehl> And I'd be cautious about making the speech too exotic, unless your culture is totally isolated.
<Fredrick> And for lowlanders, highlands are like Hell.
<Fredrick> Heaven is Hell and Hell is Heaven, in a way.
<Robert> Midlanders might be drawn from the misfits of both groups into a borderline trading culture - all the Romeo n Juliet marriages become Midlanders.
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some great ideas -- Kaelle, you're up, and Anne, you're after Kae
<BarGnat> can't breathe... no air, conversely, Highlanders feel like they're trying to breathe soup at low altitudes
<Fredrick> Thanks everyone.
<beard> thank you
<Kaelle> Okay, I will be posting background in several sections, with my question at the end.
<Kay> Here in NC, we carry machetes in teh summer time to slice up air into breathable chunks
<Fredrick>
<BarGnat> (g)
<@SLViehl> lol Kay
<Linnet> lol
<Robert> rofl Kay
<Sarah> That reminds me... I need to buy a fan...
<Gerri> grins and understands
<BarGnat> heh
<Kaelle> Ok, here s the situation. I have created a society where men and women sign contracts for marriage.
<Jebbo> Ah, pre-nups
<Kaelle> Length of term, number of children, exchange of assets, option for renewal and escape clauses are negotiated by the interested parties under the purview of the appointed negotiator. Parties may also negotiate for children without marriage, inheritance to be determined in the contract.
<Kaelle> Children are the primary reason for contracts. Although people do marry for love, even then they sign contracts. Just in case. Children born without a contract are known as children of the gods.
<Kaelle> So, given this situation, would illegitimacy occur? Would this be a concern for people, or cause a stigma to be attached to the children? Can you see any problems that could arise from this?
<Gerri> what do you mean by children of the gods?
<beard> why children of the gods?
<Linnet> they do understand how children are conceived?
<Gerri> and how does that affect the children?
<Robert> I can see those could be problems if you want problems, or children of the gods would just have the problem of insecure inheritance.
<Robert> ie getting only the mother's kinship rights and not the father's.
<James> Non-contract children would be considered a social problem because they'd complicate the flow of inheritance.
<Kaelle> Children of the gods sorta means that no man is responsible for them
<Linnet> rape cases...
<Jebbo> Illegitimacy always occurs . . . sniffs a bit like the situation in "Ender's Game"
<JamiJo> Kaelle - sounds kinda like Gattaca - a child of the gods might be looked down upon...
<@SLViehl> Children born outside of a contract agreement could be considered holy. Maybe earmarked for that society's church.
<Robert> Can contracts be made retroactive if a man finds out he fathered a child and then does a contract and back dates it?
<Robert> Good point, Sheila.
<Danielle> You don't want to make the 'children of the gods' idea too attractive, otherwise, why contract?
<Kaelle> Never read Ender's Game or Gattaca.
<Fredrick> What's to stop families from declaring legitimate children as children of God, thus disinheriting them?
<Anne_Marble> Would children of the gods end up raised separately, perhaps raised as shamans or poets or something?
<@SLViehl> Birthdates, I would think, Fredrick.
<James> Those in power and wealth would likely create legal penalties to protect the inappropriate spread of that power and wealth to children of God.
<Robert> In the Celtic idea of Beltaine kids, they're the mom's and mom gets sole custody and familial rights and pa has no rights. Other than that they're fine.
<Gerri> also, you might want to consider how the romans viewed slaves...no slave had a father.
<Jebbo> You could also look to India and how arranged marriages work there
<Kaelle> Fredrick, good question. Which is why I asked my question. G
<Fredrick> But those could be altered, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> What if the government takes children of the gods away from the parents from time of birth?
<Robert> It would work a little better in a matrilineal society where maternal inheritance is moer important than paternal.
<@SLViehl> true, Fredrick
<Fredrick> What if they really were children of the Gods?
<Anne_Marble> Maybe the children of the gods become priests.
<beard> it could be normal in a matrilineal society
<Danielle> You could have the govt use these children for some undesireable function in society
<Fredrick> Immaculate conception?
<beard> keeping the wealth in the mother's family
<Gerri> or are killed. I think that would be much more effective as a terror mechanism.
<Kaelle> The negotiator of contracts is an important position. The contracts are a legal system
<Fredrick> Or springing from Zeus's forehead, like Athena.
<Robert> If you want them traeted like anyone else, the main difference is father's family has no interest in that child legally and the church might be in lieu father.
<Gerri> children of the gods are immediately taken to become sacrifices.
<@SLViehl> Do you want bad things to happen to these kids, Kae, or good things?
<Fredrick> What about adoption?
<Jebbo> Why are these customs followed? there has to be a reason . . . severe overpopulation in the past?
<Kaelle> Sheila, I don't know yet.
<Kay> this appears to be a two sex society, with women bearing the children and men engendering
<Robert> Yes, Fredrick - good point!
<Anne_Marble> Or things that sound like blessings but aren't? For example, becoming holy men (and women) could be both curse and blessing.
<Gerri> IMO, if illigitmacy is going to be a bad thing, then bad things should result.
<Fredrick> Could these children be deGodified?
<Kaelle> Adoption - aha, something to consider.
<James> Perhaps stripped of inheritance rights, they are raised to become the Negotiator class that make all these contracts and oversee them?
<Robert> What's the status of adoption? If I marry a woman with a child of the gods can I become that child's dad retroactively? Could a couple adopt orphans?
<allikat> damn, gotta go. Bye.
<@SLViehl> The usual thing writers do is make illegitimacy a stigma. I'd like to see it where being born on the wrong side of the blanket is a sacred thing, myself
<Gerri> what if they become new bodies for the upper class.
<Kaelle> James, good thought
<Linnet> Bye Alli!
<Kay> Thus the question is what status and what reasons are there for a woman/bearer to have a child outside contract
<@SLViehl> bye alli
<Fredrick> So being a bastard is better than being noble born. Interesting take, Sheila.
<Robert> Oooh good point that Negotiators might have to come from the caste without paternal ties!
<Gerri> and there's the ability to take a new body when yours wears out....and that's what these children are used for.
<Robert> Cool idea, Sheila!
<Kay> ttyl Allison -- good luck!!
<Gerri> except then no one would want to bother with legitimacy, sheila.
<Robert> Night, Alli - happy writing!
<Fredrick> What if non-parented children lived longer?
<Danielle> Yes, but you don't want everyone wanting to choose that route
<Robert> Thanks again for crit Alli!
<@SLViehl> If you make it too attractive, though, Fredrick, women would be having babies all over the place.
<Kaelle> Ack I can't keep up
<beard> negotiators as children of gods
<Fredrick> Don't they already have babies all over the place
<Danielle> Transcripts are great, Kaelle
<Anne_Marble> Damn, the idea I had is flying around the room, sticking its tongue out at me.
<Jebbo> It strikes me that having strict marriage contracts, etc is designed to limit the numbers of children rather than promte them
<Kaelle> Yes, you guys are great!
<Robert> That seems a specific enough social role that the natural ones would fill it or once in a great while a woman would need to have a child of the gods.
<beard> the mental image of having babies all over the place is worrying
<James> If part of becoming a Negotiator is sterilization, it would be unattractive enough to keep mothers from choosing it for their children?
<@SLViehl> One way you could do it is to sterilize children born outside of a contract. Make them virtually useless to their families as breeders, then maybe put them in the custody of the church.
<Linnet> What about those contracts again? You said that the parents would sign for numbers of children also.... what if they are unable to conceive?
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, the idea just landed on my shoulder and spoke into my ear!
<Jebbo> Hence, there would be stigma being born outside the terms of a contract
<BarGnat> If the children of the Gods get all those good things, why not have the price be sterilization upon birth?
<Robert> And is real paternity even relevant, if a woman has a baby contracted for and he looks like he's black and Dad's asian, is he legally husband's child or a child of the gods in between?
<Kaelle> Linnet, something I have to think about
<Kay> If women generally prefer to have their children outside contract, men will be eager to make contract
<BarGnat> Would make it less attractive to the mothers
<Sarah> Or a woman must be sterilized if she has a child of the gods. Creates complications as women try to abort rather than have one.
<Danielle> I love that, they're sterilized but treated nobly
<Gerri> and what happens if the women try to hide the babies?
<Fredrick> Is this fantasy? Could Children of Gods be magical stores?
<Robert> Plenty of conflict there.
<Kay> Men, in today's society, like to think tha ta part of htem will live on after they die, so they wnat to engender children
<@SLViehl> It's a twist on the celibacy thing with priests, that's for sure.
<Anne_Marble> I read an SF book recently where one character is chosen to be a sort of judge for an entire city. It sounds like a cool position, but there's a catch.
<Kaelle> Inheritance plays a big part regarding the contracts.
<Robert> If men gain paternity rights by those contracts they will wan tthem and want to marry.
<Linnet> How about the first born, then? Have envery mother who give s birth bear a Negotiator... their first born. All other children are inclusive int he contract. would the first born be as a payment for the original Negotiations?
<James> They might also have a lingering resentment of non-Negotiators, causing them to come up with the most Byzantine contracts imaginable.
<Anne_Marble> No one from his past knows he's alive. He is blindfolded during the trial. He could easily end up condemning kin to death. And he puts the capital criminals to death himself.
<Kaelle> Linnet, no
<Linnet> ah
<Robert> Men hate losing paternity rights in divorces. A lot of men suffer from being cut out of their kid's lives.
<Kay> women will be more pursued for CONTRACT than for SEX if the de facto chidlren of the gods are in no way acknowledged
<Anne_Marble> That's my idea of a position in society that looks powerful but which no one would really want to have.
<Kaelle> Kay, yes, that helps what I was thinking
<Fredrick> What if mother's didn't have to give birth to have children?
<Fredrick> And only born children could be considered parented.
<Robert> Why make it harder on children of the gods? Why not make it harder on contract kids born into familial obligations and set roles, like inherit family business?
<@SLViehl> I was just remembering something my Mom told me -- there was a lady who was divorced who moved down the block from Mom when she was young. My grandmother wouldn't let my Mom talk to her. No one talked to her.
<Linnet> you'd have to have a reason forchoosing to NOT birth them...
<Kay> In that case, you'll want hte "Children of the Gods" thing to have a fairly high status, and relativley little financial disadvantage.
<James> If a normal child can't be born without negotiation, the Negotiator of a contract could be considered a third, perhaps "God" parent?
<Fredrick> What about having babies in raindrops?
<@SLViehl> So if a woman bears a child of the gods, she could be outcast by society, like divorced women used to be.
<beard> kay, you've just described a priest
<Fredrick> Baby rain
<Gerri> wait...what if the people CAN'T get pregnant without intervention by a 3rd party?
<Linnet> And yes, Beard, Fredrick's always like this...
<@SLViehl> ho -- threesomes? (g)
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, like "Alien Nation."
<Anne_Marble> Or "Dreamsnake" for that matter...
<Robert> Yeah, that was cool.
<Fredrick> I don't just think outside the box, I kick the box away and go off on my own
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Kaelle?
<Danielle> lol Fredrick
<beard> don't dolphins need a third party for mating?
<Linnet> <hugs> We like that about you, too!
<Kay> High status for the children's MOTHERS, then there's the question of what the situation is for hte chilren. Some women will care more than others.
<@SLViehl> Fredrick, we're pretty sure you don't know what a box IS, lol
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, that nerdy alien who cleaned the stationhouse turned out to have quite a reputation as a third party. ;->
<Gerri> my partner and I made up a 3 sex species once...men don't become fertile unless they've "mated" with the 3rd sex.
<Fredrick> LOL, Sheila.
<Robert> I like the reversal idea that children of the gods have more advantages, but fathers still want paternal rights and go to great lengths to contrat for them.
<Kaelle> Wow you guys are cool. Thanks for the idea generators!
<Kay> and don't worry about whaqt you don't get, Kaelle, that's what the transcript is for.
<@SLViehl> Kae, I'd attach some kind of significant stigma to being born a child of the gods, but not the usual one. And run with it -- you've got all kinds of conflict with this idea.
<Kaelle> Great! thanks
<@SLViehl> Yes, I will be posting a transcript immediately after our session, as usual.
<Robert> Purr purr!
<@SLViehl> Thanks all for a wonderful discussion -- Anne, you're up, Gerri, you're after Anne
<James> Oops, hold on, I have an idea
<@SLViehl> Sure, go ahead, James
<James> Which will now sound anti-climactic.
<Anne_Marble> Go ahead
<@SLViehl> We won't hit you.
<BarGnat> maybe
<Kay> at least, not hard, anyway
<Danielle> or often
<Linnet> rofl
<Robert> Ari won't use his claws.
<James> But -- what if children born under contract, are considered under binding contract to supply something to the contracting parent? Percentage of income for life, say.
<BarGnat> hehe
<Anne_Marble> I'll keep Gorok from you.
<BarGnat> LOL. Anne
<Kaelle> Ok, that's something else to ponder. Thanks James
<@SLViehl> oooh, income, nice James
<James> Then there's a parental advantage to the contract that makes uncontracted children less desirable -- you don't profit from them.
<Robert> Yes! Cool idea! The obligations on contract children born in wedlock are greater, must support dad in old age, must take up profession of dad's choice.
<Danielle> But children may not feel the same... nice
<Kay> OOOOO ---- good point! a nd how NEATLY done from LIFE James. Well worth the wait. Hands off the guy y'all, it waqs worthit
<James> I now return you to your regular schedule...
<Kay> even if i can't type
<Robert> (Ari soft paw pats James)
<@SLViehl> Trust James to find an idea that wicked.
<Kaelle> Cool.
<Linnet> lol
<@SLViehl> Okay, Anne, got a question for us?
<Jebbo> There's no reason for that to stick for more than one generation . . . you need something that forces compliance
<Anne_Marble> This is a short fun one. Help! I need a title for my Gorok and Wulf story. I'm sick of calling it "City of Mages." And... try to keep it PG-13 people! ;->
<Linnet> ROFLOL
<Linnet> aww shucks!
<@SLViehl> Night of the Mage
<JamiJo> Why not just Gorok and Wulf?
<Robert> All of society - works for the Amish, Jebbo. No one would hire that kid for anything but the chosen by pa profession.
<Linnet> they might not end up together...
<Robert> "Prison of Mages"
<Danielle> What's the story about? (I know the plot, but...)
<Anne_Marble> Gprpl amd Wi;f. that could work.
<Jebbo> Ok, give us the one line plot summary
<Anne_Marble> Whoops.
<Robert> Gorok and Wulf
<Kaelle> lol
<@SLViehl> Heart of the Wulf
<BarGnat> Mage Dilemma
<@SLViehl> Mage Price
<Robert> The Barbarian and the Mage
<James> I'm dreadful with titles. I like one word ones.
<Fredrick> G and W, a Mage Story.
<Linnet> Hair of the Wulf that Bit Him
<Danielle> Through His Eyes
<JamiJo> Gorok - n - Roll?
<@SLViehl> lol JamiJo
<Robert> rofl JamiJo
<Anne_Marble> Gorok is a barbarian thrown into a prison of mages. He is gay, he starts out on a bad footing with Wulf, eventually they become roomies.
<James> Linnet lol
<JamiJo> Wulfheart
<beard> prison of mages?
<@SLViehl> Wulf's Bane?
<Linnet> oh, God....
<Anne_Marble> Hair of the Wulf, Hee hee
<Robert> Prison of the Heart
<Robert> rofl Anne!
<BarGnat> Inmates to Roommates
<Robert> ROFL BG!
<Gerri> If these walls could talk...
<beard> ROFL
<Danielle> Unchain My Heart
<Anne_Marble> Yup, they imprison heretics in this place
<James> Like Wulfheart...
<Gerri> REdemption Prison
<Fredrick> Love in the time of Mages.
<beard> Prisoners of Love, blueskies above...lalala
<Kay> Barbarian Road: a Tale of Gorok
<Jebbo> OK, that's the character story, what's the backdrop . . .
<Fredrick> Two Gay Mages in Love
<@SLViehl> Oh, I like that, Kay
<Gerri> Brains and Brawns
<Kaelle> I like it, Kay
<JamiJo> My Mage, My Friend...
<Fredrick> Friends 2
<Kay> to be followed by City of Mages: a Tale of Gorok and other titles :a Tale of Gorok
<Kay> (bows)
<BarGnat> Hold Back the Brawn
<Danielle> <applauds>
<Fredrick> A Mage Among Men
<Anne_Marble> Gorok is from another nation, he's an outsider. There is some political stuff, it just hasn't shown up yet.
<@SLViehl> (applauding for Kay)
<Kay> Oh, BG, tres excellent!
<Danielle> The Outsider
<Robert> Very cool, Kay!
<Fredrick> All the Mage
<Robert> Gorok and the Eye of Peering
<Anne_Marble> Robert> Hee hee hee
<BarGnat> ewww, Robert. lol
<Jebbo> The title is probably better from the political stuff but alluding to the G/W relationship
<Robert> (more for a chaapter title)
<James> Barbarian Road is good.
<Fredrick> A Mage Made In Heaven
<Kaelle> That's good Robert
<Danielle> lol Fredrick
<Robert> Snowcats and Leather Pants Don't Mix (another chapter title)
<JamiJo> Forward the Mage - no, what, someone already took that Be Forward With The Mage? hee hee hee
<beard> Frederick, ::SNORK!!!:
<Kaelle> snarf Robert
<Fredrick> What's a snork?
<Anne_Marble> Reverse the Mage
<Gerri> inhale your pop, fredrick
<beard> Jami you should be ashamed of yourself
<Sarah> Snork -- a little weird cartoony thing that lives underwater.
<Gerri> you'll snork then
<Robert> Who Raped Who?
<Kay> akin to snarf, in snork the pop gets in the lungs, in snarf whatever you were drinking winds up on the screen
<Fredrick> O.K.
<beard> snork, the sound made when your soda flies out your nose over your computer screen
<Fredrick> Mage Amour,
<BarGnat> Rape of the Magi
<Anne_Marble> Who's in Charge Here? ;->
<@SLViehl> Night Spell
<Linny> Okay, Anne, give us something other than the love angle.... Do they get off the island? "Escape Somthing or Other" Do they have to defeat the council of mages on the island?
<@SLViehl> nope, sounds too much like Love Spell
<Anne_Marble> Eventually they get off -- the island that is.
<JamiJo> Love in Magic and Rage?
<Anne_Marble> <ducks>
<Danielle> rofl Anne
<Jebbo> What's the city called?
<Gerri> haha
<JamiJo> rofl!
<beard> Anne ROFLMAO
<Anne_Marble> Uhm, Yottha or something.
<Kaelle> Anne, roflmao
<JamiJo> I dream of Gorok?
<Gerri> Who's Chasing Who?
<@SLViehl> Escape from Yottha?
<Kay> Gorok in Yottha
<Jebbo> Lot's of titles that are just the city name
<Anne_Marble> With the light brown...
<JamiJo> Wulf's Chasing Who?
<Fredrick> Gorok in Love
<JamiJo> Gorok and Wulf in Yottha
<Robert> Snowcats and Catty Mages
<BarGnat> hehehe, Anne
<@SLViehl> Dilemma in Yottha
<Kay> Gorok and the Snowcat
<JamiJo> Mages and Snowcats and Wulf, Oh My
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, that might work, Robert.
<Robert> Where did you find that apple?
<Linny> What's the most difficult thing you've put the two of them through so far?
<Anne_Marble> Tee hee
<Danielle> Mage Cage
<BarGnat> Snowcats at Midnight
<@SLViehl> Survive the Night
<Kay> oooo Danielle!!!
<Robert> I think you need witty chapter titles, Anne. Too many good bits make good titles.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Anne_Marble> On the first night, Gorok beat up Wulf and then, uhm, assaulted him.
<JamiJo> Raging Mage?
<Robert> Who Raped Whom? (chapter title)
<@SLViehl> I like Kay's suggestion -- the one with A Tale of Gorok. That really sounded classy
<Anne_Marble> In Chapter Six, they watched someone get flogged. (Not that kind of flogging...)
<Danielle> Barbarian Road, get my vote
<Robert> Yeah, Kay's for the whole thing would be good and for sequels.
<Kaelle> Barbarian Road, ditto
<Linny> I like that one
<James> Barbarian Road was very cool.
<Anne_Marble> These are all so cool, I might have to do chapter titles!
<Robert> Chapter titles would be great too.
<Jebbo> Anyway, they are all better than the working title of my current short "Groombridge 34"
<Jebbo> (name of a star)
<Danielle> 'The Wet Breechcloth Competition'
<Robert> Not that kind of Flogging (chapter title)
<Kay> I like books with chapter titles
<Robert> I do too.
<Gerri> haha, danielle!
<Kaelle> Those would make great chapter titles!
<Anne_Marble> Danielle> Tee hee!
<Linny> I see Yottha, I see France....
<Gerri> gigglefit
<JamiJo> Wulf sees Gorok's underpants...
<Robert> that's Not Gorok's Underpants...
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for some (ahem) innovative title suggestions ...Gerri, you're up, and then we'll take a five minute break.
<BarGnat> LOL
<Kay> that's gorok's under PARTS
<beard> LOL
<JamiJo> falls off chair laughing
<Danielle> Put Those Claws Away
<Kaelle> roflmao
<Gerri> 3 parts....plz be patient
<Gerri> I've got a POV problem, sort of. I'm going to be writing a torture scene that begins in the middle of a torture session, and ends with them not able to crack the victim(he's really innocent, just had multiple shocks to the psyche, and then a bunch of torture on top of it all).
<Gerri> Then a psychic walks in, scans him, and tells the torturer that the guy has been telling the truth the whole time, and they turn him loose....Which, IMO, sounds like a deus ex machina. Why didn't they do that in the first place instead of interrogating him...that's the flaw I'm seeing in the idea.
<Gerri> Ideas to make it less god in the machine-like? Or how I can convey, through only the character's POV, that they either didn't have access to the psychic, or wanted to do things the hard way in the first place?
<Kay> who is your initial POV character?
<beard> why was he tortured?
<Danielle> Does character know his torturers? Because they may want him to suffer, and he may know that
<Robert> Show it in prisoner's point of view. And have HIM ask that at the end when psychic comes to examine him. Let them answer to that onstage.
<Jebbo> Psychics are rare . . . they had to ship him in from planetXorg
<Anne_Marble> Maybe if they do it through the psychic, they don't get a portion of the victim's estate.
<Robert> That's what I'd be spitting mad about if I'd been tortured and then vindicated by that psychic.
<@SLViehl> If you have a torturer who deliberately keeps the psychic at bey so he can work over your prisoner for the sheer twisted enjoyment, that would work
<Gerri> the torturee...they believe he's been a part of a secret enemy organization...his wife was...she kept him in the dark.
<Linny> Be like my hospital's anesthitist.... he was busy doing something else
<JamiJo> Make whoever calls in the psychic do it real snidely... make him hate psychics and show it
<BarGnat> character who ordered torture too impatient to wait for the psychic?
<Fredrick> The psychic is off on assignment.
<Anne_Marble> Like when they pressed people to death, if you died that way, your family got to keep your estate.
<Danielle> Psychic's busy with the torturee's friend/relative?
<James> Possibly it takes a certain amount of torture to ramp up the victim's emotional energy enough so that a psychic can clearly read his thoughts?
<Linny> yup
<Fredrick> They used the psychic as a last resort because he charges too much.
<Gerri> nope, she's dead.
<@SLViehl> Maybe the psychic can't scan the prisoner unless he's on the verge of death
<Jebbo> the torturer has a long history with the guy being tortured. He shouldn't be torturing the guy but, heck, he;s the antagonist
<Anne_Marble> That's good, James
<Sarah> Guard one: 'Where the hell is the psyichic?" Guard two: "Who needs her? I'm perfectly capable of doing this. Watch."
<Kaelle> That's a good one, James
<Gerri> and he knew NOTHING.
<@SLViehl> whoops, James, we crossed on that one
<beard> james good idea
<Fredrick> Psychic's car broke down.
<Danielle> oh, Sarah. Cool.
<James> Great minds, Sheila
<Robert> YEah and that would make the prisoner's accusation a sudden problem for the bad guy. Let the bad guy solve it and get himself off the hook.
<Kaelle> Sarah, good!
<Fredrick> I have to go for now. See you guys later.
<@SLViehl> Yeah, a torturer who has something against psychics. Ruins all his good work.
<Gerri> well, there is someone w/ a grudge...can use that....
<James> See you Fredrick
<Danielle> see ya, Fredrick!
<Kaelle> Bye Fredrick
<BarGnat> bye Fredrick
<@SLViehl> Night Fredrick
<Robert> See you Fredrick! Happy writing!
<Anne_Marble> Oh, no! No more Fredrick ideas!
<Sarah> Bye Fredrick
<beard> bye Fredrick
<Danielle> Someone who's willing to torture, and getting the truth isn't their first priority - they like to torture
<Sarah> They need to make an example.
<@SLViehl> You do need a reason to keep the psychic away, Gerri, I agree on that point -- otherwise, it does seem too pat
<Robert> That's teh real reason, so if point of view prisoner calls him on it he may get some kind of compensation or grievance.
<Gerri> that, unfortunately, won't work, danielle...
<Danielle> Oh, ok
<Jebbo> Here's one for you: the victim prefers being tortured to the idea of a psychic. He request torture. Only after it fails do they bring in the psychic
<Gerri> that's the one thing that won't.
<Robert> If the torturer wanted to torture because he had a grudge and got caught, he can waffle and play office politics.
<@SLViehl> pretty twisty, Jebbo
<Kaelle> maybe the torturers and the psychic are rivals for some reason...
<Robert> Oh that's a good one Jebbo. leaves prisoner feeling violated WORSE
<Danielle> Are psychics plentiful?
<Jebbo> Twisted? Yup . . that;s me
<Gerri> not powerful ones...
<Gerri> which it would take to read this guy.
<@SLViehl> the villain delays the psychic so the prisoner suffers.
<Danielle> Then all you have to do is give the psychic another emergency - soemthing heroic, if you want them to be liked, something nasty if not
<beard> Jebbo, perhaps the victim is scared of psychics, secret in the past or something
<Jebbo> oh, he definitely prefers torture. He's hiding the fact he is a psychic
<@SLViehl> but why have torturers at all, if you have psychics?
<Anne_Marble> Maybe they tried earlier with a weaker psychic, and he/she couldn't do anything. So they tried torture because the good one was away.
<Robert> Yeah. And then has to work to keep from getting suied (call my lawyer, I have the status to pull this off) and is VERY motivated to pick on prisoner again.
<Kay> The psychic is sent for, but can't get there quickly due to an even more urgent need for his services (or hers) elsewhere. For some reaosn, the need to have the information is also very time urgetn -- people in danger of death, and they dont' feel that they can wait because the circumstantial evidence is too strong that the innocent man was involved.
<Gerri> that's the problem I'm wrestling with, Sheila.
<BarGnat> The need for the information they think he has is so urgent they can't wait any longer for the psychic before trying to get it by torture
<Amanda> If he's that powerful, then maybe he was needed on another important case... he's exhausted, needs to rest, took a quick nap, and by the time they call him, the torture's gone quite a ways further than it should have
<Sarah> Maybe psychics are just "coming out." People are skeptical of their validity.
<@SLViehl> You'd have to have a very scant supply of psychics. Not enough to go around.
<Kay> gmta BG
<James> The torturer might be a good guy -- doesn't want the psychic to get from the victim's head that the torturer is also disloyal or rebellious or whatever.
<Robert> Use it to spawn other conflicts. And if you're not that sure let the bad guy cook up his reason and his excuses and see what their society would let him get away with.
<Gerri> no....they're very well established.
<Jebbo> the guy being tortured is a psychic, that's why he's afraid of them -- only another can find out his guilty secret
<Anne_Marble> Right, like they think he kidnapped somebody and want to find them while still alive?
<@SLViehl> Maybe being scanned kills one out of two prisoners instantly.
<Kay> That's right Sheila, not enough psychics for the jobs for them, like doctors in rural areas
<Sarah> Ooh, good one Sheila!
<BarGnat> oops, Kay... was typing instead of reading. (g)
<Robert> Ooh yeah, Sheila!
<Kay> i do that all the tiem.
<@SLViehl> So psychics are like the last resort.
<Gerri> no...he's got a vindictive sob on his tail who believes he's responsible for getting his mother killed by working for the opposite side.
<Robert> And if prisoner's not willign that's one of the deepest kinds of rape there is.
<Amanda> Maybe scanning minds that "wicked" causes a severe drain on the psychic. He doesn't want to do it more often than necessary
<Danielle> Maybe its the equivalent of an expensive medical procedure, have to see if victim is insured!
<Kay> Good idea Amanda. that's a very legitimate possiblity.
<Sarah> Maybe there's a danger that a psychic will be infected by a guilty mind and be driven insane.
<beard> Robert good idea, could make the rape(er) feel dirty also
<James> If the victim is a psychic, maybe the delay is the refusal of the psychic to subject himself to the much more powerful projection of pain he'd read from a fellow psychic. They had to talk the psychic into putting himself through that..
<Gerri> well, he is an alien...could I play the "we had to find a psychic who COULD read him" card?
<@SLViehl> (and welcome Nicosian, Steven, and Amanda, who all slipped in the back when we weren't looking)
<Amanda> or he could be read, but they couldn't make heads or tails out of what they were reading?
<Robert> That sounds good to me including an aversion of local psychics to his thought patterns at all.
<Robert> Purr hi guys
<Nicosian> maybe there's other secrets he fears the psychic will read, not related to the torture at hand.
<@SLViehl> Oh, excellent, Gerri -- maybe hardly ANYONE could read him
<beard> how alien? Gerri
<Jebbo> Another tack: the psychic initially refused to scan the guy . . .because he's his friend / brother / lover.
<Kay> Yes, you could. That coudl create your rarity. we have a bunch of psyhics but not many who can do THIS
<Danielle> Someone agreed to pay for the psychic, they're way too expensive for most
<Gerri> well, let's just say he ain't animal or vegetable
<BarGnat> ahhh
<Sarah> The psychic had to go read the mind of a willing alien to have a basis of comparison. Like a Rosetta Mind.
<@SLViehl> that would make him....a rock. (g)
<Robert> Closet scandal even if it's minor and just personal "And on top of all that this prisoner's a whiny neurotic who hates his parents..."
<Gerri> that's a GOOD one sarah!
<@SLViehl> that makes sense, Sarah
<Kay> Would I believe a psychic who was the accused's brother or other family or loved one?
<Kaelle> Wow. Great idea, Sarah
<James> That is good Sarah.
<Gerri> I could really use that in some of the other places.
<Robert> "Cause his dad was psychic and used to read him all the time and catch him stealing candy bars out of the fridge"
<Gerri> relative won't work. he's an only child.
<Kay> Nice, Sarah!!
<Jebbo> Kay> we'll there's some conflict for the guards: do we beleive the psychic?
<Kay> true, Jebbo, true!
<Anne_Marble> Gah
<Robert> "And he did do it too, he was always stealing food as a child. "
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Gerri?
<beard> a rosetta mind if he's the only alien, how would the psychic know they'd got it right
<Gerri> he's not
<Robert> Like that, Beard
<Gerri> his mother was a part of the organization, too.
<@SLViehl> I like so many of these ideas I don't know what to recommend. You've got a nice selection to choose from, Gerri.
<beard> drat seemed like a good idea
<James> Combine a couple
<Gerri> gonna use more than one
<Gerri> thank you thank you!
<Robert> Yeah, play with it. There's lots of ways to make it not deus ex machina - using to complicate things is the basic idea.
<Gerri> been wrestling w/ this one for months
<Robert> Not an unmixed blessing but a new set of conflicts.
<Danielle> hope this helped, then! good luck
<Amanda> Break time! Everyone bombard beard for drink requests!
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for some great ideas -- you're going to have fun with this, Gerri. Let's take a five minute break now, folks
<Gerri> it has!
<Robert> An ambulance chasing lawyer wants him to sue th etorturer and get tied up in it for years in court...
<BarGnat> Hi, Steven -- how's your m-i-l doing?
<Robert> Or sue the psychic...
<James> brb
<Anne_Marble> Gah
<Danielle> wb Anne!!
<Gerri> no...the guy who has him tortured is also the guy who has to approve him to take over his mother's multi-zillion dollar corporation, though....
<@SLViehl> brb -- running for tea
<Gerri> and according to the laws where he was at the time, the guy didn't do anything illegal.
<Danielle> brb, tea and panadol
<beard> brb, scotch
<BarGnat> (g)
<BarGnat> to each his own, beard.
<beard> and mountain dew
<BarGnat> hehehe
<@SLViehl> back, kettle's cooking
<BarGnat> brb
<@SLViehl> Nicosian, Steven, Amanda -- do any of you have a question for the group tonight?
<beard> you're not watching the pot are you sheila?
<Robert> Scandal that's legal with devastating social consequences good.
<Amanda> It's Linnet, Sheila.. I'm already up there
<@SLViehl> Don't have to, beard, it whistles.
<@SLViehl> Whoops, sorry. I'll memorize everyone's names eventually
<Sarah> Hmmm... do I want to add comments to my blog... hmmmm......
<Robert> Yeah, so will I, just as a whole batch of new folks show up.
<Nicosian> just eavesdropping. Can'st stay long.
<Amanda> that's okay I still don't get half of 'em
<JamiJo> So, if anyone wonders... Detroit won, 7-0
<beard> good, it wouldn't boil otherwise, quantum physics, string theory and all that
<JamiJo>
<Robert> Oh yes, Sara, commenters are good!
<@SLViehl> Get some Pepto Bismol if you do, Sarah
<Amanda> yay Jami
<@SLViehl> lol
<@SLViehl> true, beard, true
<Sarah> That's what I'm thinking. If someone really wants to comment, they e-mail. Course, I usually get yelled at for being naive and fluff-headed.
<BarGnat> Go, Wings!
<Amanda> Let me go put my son back in bed again...
<Anne_Marble> I just had some generic berry-flavored antacid tablets
<Nicosian> i have to support the arts tonight. (gallery opeings)
<JamiJo> heh - Sheila, I like the color change on your blog... And Robert & Ari, yours as well
<Robert> I should remove the Snog comments that don't work adn get the other commenter that does work. I've wondered why no one comments to my blog but lots of people read it.
<beard> what's a blog?
<Robert> Purr! Thank you!
<JamiJo> weB LOG
<Sarah> Weblog, beard. www.blogger.com Highly addictive.
<Robert> Sheila, commented but I'll tell you again, love the planetview and new colors.
<Kay> a blog is an online diary
<JamiJo> And that poptart link was TOOOO funny...
<Jebbo> Hmm . . .that reminds me that I;ve been neglecting my journal
<beard> ahh, i'll have to check it out, though Baen's and here may keep me pretty busy
<@SLViehl> It's a weblog, beard -- most of us have them. (blushing) Thanks for the compliments, folks. Now stop.
<Robert> Mine runneth over but I get to rant on it once in a while
<James> Back. Belatedly.
<JamiJo> Mine's going fairly well... I actually remember to update it, unlike my web page.
<Nicosian> My toaster didn't quite burst into flame like the one in the experiment, but close.
<BarGnat> I still can't figure out how you guys find time to do a journal
<Anne_Marble> I just started my Gorok and Wulf blog.
<@SLViehl> The color changes are all Steven's fault, btw. He got everyone changing things.
<Sarah> I'm completely addicted to mine, and I can't read Jenny's anymore while I'm drinking.
<Robert> BG - that's my warmup for real writing.
<JamiJo> I do mine at work mostly, or 5 minutes before I go hom.
<@SLViehl> brb, kettle is whistling
<JamiJo> err go to bed
<Robert> I never worry about if my blog entries are good writing or not, but I'm happy the random times they are good.
<JamiJo> mine absolutely suck, except when I'm ranting about the bird
<beard> Birds will do that
<BarGnat> Must be gnice to be multitalented like that
<Nicosian> I just keep the update window open to grab ideas that drift by.
<James> Mine I treat like the counts board -- I find myself writing so I have something to record in the blog at the end of the day.
<Gerri> seriously...thanks, folks...I just printed that part of the chat...gonna mull ideas
<Robert> I do that too and do it with other goals like rewrites
<Steven> sure, blame me.
<@SLViehl> I've been writing in a journal daily since 1973, so it's kind of habit with me.
<Kaelle> (g) BarGnat; I agree
<beard> hmm, I like the counts board idea
<Danielle> Loved the librarian link, Sheila! I'm one as well.
<James> Anything to strengthen the writing instinct...
<@SLViehl> Last call for beverages/bathroom breaks/snacks etc.
<beard> Librarian link
<Sarah> I could never keep up a written journal. THis is a godsend.
<Nicosian> and to keep people from asking me : how the novel is going.
<beard> ?
<beard> former cataloger here
<@SLViehl> Librarians are the coolest people in the world.
<Danielle> Beard, the Library Avengers, sold cool t-shirts
<Gerri> is allergic to journals
<Robert> Do enough novels and the answer becomes "Which one?"
<beard> No
<Danielle> 'Look it up!'
<Jebbo> I prefer journals to blogs . . . a blog somehow is written for consumption but a journal is private
<James> My recent changes were down to seeing what Sheila managed after you nagged her, Steven, so the blame spreads...
<Kay> My sister is a librarian. she knows everything. If you ever play trivial pursuit, dont agree to have her on another team.
<Robert> I do both, my offline journal truly is wretched and whiny.
<Gerri> I got taunted in junior high about my journal. never wrote anything down again.
<@SLViehl> Steven has infected us all, I'm afraid (shaking head sadly)
<Robert> Because I usually don't bother with the offline one if I'm in a good mood
<Sarah> I record my private thoughts when I archive stuff to disk. But there isn't much I don't share on the blog. Something my friends really like, since apparently I don't communicate verbally too well.
<BarGnat> Sigh. He's just like that.
<beard> blog, good word, it rolls off the tongue nicely
<Steven> I did not nag. I merely offered to help.
<Jebbo> my journal is where I experiment and explore my inner angst
<Steven> innocent aura
<@SLViehl> I have theme journals. "Mom" "Kids Stuff" "Depression" "Why I want to KILL my ex-husband"
<Anne_Marble> Yay, I won a Sam Goody coupon by entering the code from my Hersheys Milk Cookies & Cream drinK!
<James> Typhoid Stephen. Blogoid Stephen?
<Gerri> lol
<@SLViehl> lol
<Robert> Likewise, Jebbo.
<Robert> Oh like those topics, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> make that ex-husbands.
<Kaelle> Yay, Anne!
<Nicosian> I've gotten good plot feedback from mine.
<James> Oops, Steven, sorry - delete the "ph"
<Crista> Hey, everyone. <waves>
<@SLViehl> Hey Crista
<beard> shiela is that where the ideas for "dad" come from
<Robert> Hey Crista! Purr!
<Jebbo> usually though, my inner angst lasts a microsecond or so before it sparks something far more interesting
<Kaelle> Hey Crista!
<Anne_Marble> But will it print?
<BarGnat> Hi, Crista
<Kay> The trick, beard, is distinguishing between the online journal (kept for publicity purposes, to "float" ideas, or to teach less experienced writers) and the offline journal. (Kept to vent one's feelings out of public view.)
<Robert> Know the feeling, Jebbo.
<Steven> say, Sheila, did you do something with the picture on your blog?
<Nicosian> I can lock entries from view. that helps.
<@SLViehl> Not yet, Steven (wail) trying to finish this book, then I'll play with the sizing
<Robert> I vent my feelings in public view, but I don't name names or gossip in the public blog.
<Kaelle> Hey Yvonne!
<beard> hmm, I'm still missing the darned question mark when I type
<@SLViehl> Hiya Yvonne
<Danielle> Hi Yvonne, Crista!
<Yvonne> hi, not as crowded as I thought it'd be
<Robert> If I have to flame someone it stays private, because I can take it back and never said it.
<BarGnat> Hi, Yvonne
<Amanda> Hi Yvonne!
<Kay> You're a braver man than, I, Robert!
<Kaelle> Good idea, Robert.
<Kay> Hi Yvonne!!!!!
<Steven> It must be the laptop then. It looks different, though.
<@SLViehl> All right, group, let's get back to work. Robert, you're up, Jebbo, you're after Robert
<Robert> But I can rant on the IDEA of it and do. Ideas don't get hurt feelings or misunderstand.
<Yvonne> hi kay, do I rate 5 exclamation points?
<Amanda> lol
<Robert> Hi Yvonne!!!!!!!!
<Jebbo> Now I have wireless lan, I intend to spend 15 minutes a day in front of CNN writing down news stories. Several I've remembered have led to incidents in characters pasts
<Amanda> !!!!!
<@SLViehl> You rate at least ten, Yvonne (wink)
<Kaelle> lol
<Yvonne> lol
<Kay> You do, you do!!!!!
<Kaelle> !!!!!
<beard> !!!!!
<JamiJo> !!!!!!
<Danielle> !!!!!
<Anne_Marble> Gah, all this to print a bloody coupon. Gah.
<JamiJo> falls off chair laughing again
<Amanda> yup, it's unanimous...
<Robert> My badly phrased question. I just changed the end of Quest from "Blade dies and gets resurrected next book" to "Blade dies and gets resurrected this book like Holly did in a book"
<Robert> Holly did that with a sympathetic char. in a book, killed off and brought back in final chapter but not without some consequences to the deathtrip.
<Robert> Current best contender for final scene: resurrection by Ysildre his lover who the moment he's back tells him
<Anne_Marble> It's actually printing
<Robert> "My view of my proper status in Thendraga is Wife!' followed by "You're setting a dagnerous precedent" hot kiss fade to end.
<Robert> Or the romance element brought into the happy ending if that's what I use for final scene. Is that strong enough for "ends this volume makes you want the next?"
<Anne_Marble> All th bandwidth the programs take them, it would be cheaper to male the bloody coupon!
<Steven> male it, anne???
<James> Oh, I think so -- all those alternative meanings to dangerous precendent.
<@SLViehl> I like the unification at the end.
<Kay> yes, but, please. More than 3 lines of dialog on it.
<Amanda> better than neutering it, Steven...
<Robert> Sheila, you are the Romance writer here - oh purr Kay
<beard> Robert, this is sounding familiar to me
<Gerri> I'm not sure I do, though...
<Kaelle> ditto, Kay. A little more dialog
<Robert> Okay, so I should put more into that final reunion scene.
<Sarah> Ditto what Kay said. That'll just frustrate people.
<beard> More dialog definitely
<Gerri> what if she's scared or angry that he's back instead of happy?
<Robert> (not that I can ever shut those two up)
<Jebbo> Hmm . . .I'd be tempted to leave him dead but have the rest of the cast need him for some pressing problem (hook for next book)
<@SLViehl> I always like to see the guy get the girl. Even if she has to raise him from the dead.
<Robert> She wants him that much. He wants her that much.
<Gerri> or he's angry that he's back.
<Kaelle> lol Sheila
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, I get annoyed with endings where two people hook up and don't say anything.
<@SLViehl> What if she brings him back but you don't get into the cost of the trip until the next book?
<Jebbo> alternatively, his ressurection causes a major glitch that hooks for the sequel
<Kay> first she needs to fall all over him on account of getting him back, then you can go on with some of the other stuff.
<BarGnat> What if the price she has to pay for bringing him back to life is to stay away from him for a certain length of time.... but love is stronger than time
<James> Robert, do you currently know how he feels about being back?
<Robert> No, he wanted to come back, the conflict's not between them. Dangerous precedent IS a conflict because he might have successors and hers might not be in love with them.
<JamiJo> Definitely... mebbe theres some things they need to clear up / argue over before they can be happy together?
<Danielle> Hint at the cost, perhaps? a seed of doubt
<@SLViehl> I agree with Kay
<Robert> Yes, he was trying to tell her to get him back.
<Gerri> b/c it just isn't done, this coming back from the dead, and while she's majorly happy he's alive, she's also peeing scared at the consequences...and I need to see that right away
<Kay> like hwat does it cost her to do it (gotta be big)
<Gerri> or he is....doesn't matter.
<Robert> Ooh you're right Gerri, she's more scared of consequences than eh is because he paid his consequences in the first chapter and came through.
<James> Has he come back unchanged?
<Yvonne> kinda like pulling a Buffy
<beard> ooh a hint of cost, would be a hook
<Robert> He has and it's completion of his initiation.
<Robert> Proof he made it and isn't some kind of fraud.
<@SLViehl> But if you have a big opener thread like that at the end Gerri -- not sure, it would be tough to make it sound standalone
<Danielle> Cost to her, she's thrilled, but...
<Robert> But the risk is that it alerted some offworld interests.
<Gerri> I want more than a hint....
<@SLViehl> (working off all the grief I get for my cliffhangers here)
<Gerri> haha
<beard> LOL
<Kaelle> snarf
<Robert> So I like Kay's idea of bringing consequences into the overlapping "reprise of closer as opener from other poitn of view" opener Alli suggested.
<Amanda> oooo,
<Robert> I have a trilogy.
<beard> you don't have cliff-hangers, do you? wide puppy dog eyes
<Gerri> even something along the lines of "oh, honey, I love you so much, but I really wish you had stayed dead."
<@SLViehl> See, I like cliffhangers, but they seem to drive everyone ELSE on the planet nuts, so I'm sticking with the "finish the story: ending these days.
<Jebbo> When does he die? As part of resolution, before it, or after? If he dies as part of the resolution, then the logical place to ressurect him is the prologue for the next part
<Robert> Blade's sitting on the equivalent of "this whole conflict is like two Pacific tribes duking it out with war canoes and I do not want galleons on these shores"
<Danielle> It'd be good, when people pick up book 2, and they're thinking oh! she didn't get off scott free, I like it!
<Yvonne> Sheila>that's because it takes forever for the next book to come out
<Robert> As part of how he whacked down the bad castle.
<Sarah> Sheila> Only when we don't have the next one.
<Jebbo> or even later in the next book . . .his re-appearance is a shock
<@SLViehl> Tell me about it, Yvonne.
<Gerri> I love cliffhangers.
<Robert> Alli suggested teh overlap to show the two different points of view. Ysildre's is innocent of "galleons" consequence.
<@SLViehl> (hugging Gerri)
<Gerri> hugs sheila back
<Kaelle> I like cliffhangers, too, if I know there's more coming.
<Yvonne> racking up brownie points Gerri?
<Danielle> Cliffhangers are only good if you know the publisher will pick up the next book
<@SLViehl> (Gerri is negotiating my next contract)
<Gerri> no. just being honest
<beard> ask BG about cliff hangers I keep glue by the computer for her
<Robert> I liked the one in Beyond Varallan and honestly believed you might have chucked Character Seen As Evil in favor of new love for Cherijo
<Steven> I admit I was a bit annoyed at the cliffhanger at the end of Beyond Varallan. Had to go and read Endurance. LOL.
<Kay> ending with love interest is not cliffhanger but does lead on with interest to next book
<Robert> I had originally used Blade's death as cliffhanger but this is a book one.
<BarGnat> I have one appendage that has superglue on it just for beard's stories
<Robert> And I saw Holly do something similar in a book that i won't spoil for anyone who hasn't read it.
<@SLViehl> lol Mary
<Jebbo> if this is book 1, then there should be planty of threads that are unresolved . . .
<beard> BG artfully applied adhesive
<Gerri> but I don't think her sweating about what is gonna happen now that he's back from the dead is a true cliffhanger.
<Steven> it's true. Mary's always complaining about it. hehe.
<BarGnat> it's the gnatly way
<Jebbo> planty? is that some kind of hip flower?
<Robert> So I like Alli's ending better but want to get it just perfect so readers are a) satisfied and b) also really want to go back to them and get book two which should also stand alone.
<Danielle> No, she should definitely have some idea of the negative consequences BEFORE she raises him
<@SLViehl> That's the equivalent of a Scarlett O'Hara ending, in a way....
<Robert> They're political and she sort of does and yet doesn't care about THOSE consequences or take them that seriously.
<beard> Robert, I like the idea of bringing him back at the end of the story , but it does need more dialogue or more description
<Robert> Okay. Will put much more of a scene.
<Danielle> and choose to do it anyway, up the stakes for her
<Gerri> yeah...that's why I'm kinda pushing, Danielle.
<beard> Robert describe what the costs would be, earlier in the story
<@SLViehl> Trust me, Robert, when you take it down to the last line for the final twist, lynch mobs start to form...(g)
<Kay> some cost to her, and the cost to her must be high enough to tell him that she wouldn't have done it if she didn't love him.
<Robert> There's some local politics and a local curse thrown in chapter one to defuse in order for her to do it.
<Jebbo> I've always felt ressurection should be rare and difficult. Have him come back as a monster and take the next book or two restoring him tohumanity (or even failing to do so)
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<Danielle> Yes, kay, exactly!!
<Gerri> they're just inspiration to write faster, sheila
<Kay> also some of the cost to her in bringing him back must be PERSONAL
<Robert> Okay. So how do I wrap the Romance Final Scene - sheila you especially - what would you want to see after the moment Blade wants her too.
<beard> If you introduce the cost early, that provides the cliffhanger
<Robert> Oh. "Then we will wed in my mother's people's customs as well."
<Danielle> as in, no one would ever do THAT, of course
<Kay> there's a commitment ot the idea of being together, even if the cost is high and there must be some delay and even if there will be obstacles
<@SLViehl> I'd like to see a full unification scene, Robert -- they whoopee over his return, declare their love, make plans. Maybe a whole half a chapter's worth.
<Robert> IE if she wants marriage she had better be serious about it - the thingy Sheila used in Stardoc SO well with jorenians. OOoh good! So raising those problems and solving them would nto be dull?
<BarGnat> then the other shoe drops
<Kay> Yeah. What sheila said
<@SLViehl> And I'll stick with Gerri and go with hearing some of the problems ahead, too.
<BarGnat> the one you untied with hints during the story
<Amanda> And then late at night.... IT HAPPENS! <gasp>
<Kay> yeah, WHAT SHEILA said
<Robert> You want me to end on the honeymoon?
<Kay> Not necessarily, but end with a firm commitment.
<Danielle> Yeah, the whole 'Pet Sematary' side kicks in
<Gerri> no. end w/ the beginning of the consequences.
<Robert> Or Ysildre's coy nakedness finally revealed? To lush description of how perfect that woman's body is inhis love lit eyes?
<Amanda> ;yes, Gerri, that's it
<@SLViehl> I'd have it be just between them for the end. Then get into the pomp and ceremony with book two.
<Kay> Yes. what SHeila said
<James> Or the consequences foreshadowed in word choice, atmosphere, metaphor, symbols...
<Gerri> whatever it takes...
<Kaelle> Yeah, what James said. (g)
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some great ideas -- Jebbo, you're up, then Linnet/Amanda is after Jebbo.
<Jebbo> I'll pass; I almost have a question, so come back to me if time permits
<Robert> Well, I could move the scenelet where the bad guy he killed starts coming up again...
<Kay> ( notices she's getting repetitive here.)
<@SLViehl> (patting Kay on the back)
<BarGnat> lol
<Amanda> whoops
<Kay> sorry, afk for a while. apologies.
<Amanda> my turn then?
<Danielle> OOh, Robert, nice complication
<@SLViehl> Your turn, Amanda
<Jebbo> Go for it Amanda
<Amanda> All right, then
<Robert> Ooh thank you everyone and esp. you Sheila, opening with a ruined wedding is good idea!
<Amanda> My question involves a bit about sriting style.
<@SLViehl> I love to wreck a wedding
<beard> No I wouldn't have guessed
<Sarah> Ooh, something tells me Mercy and Cat are going to have a doozy...
<Amanda> drat, it won't let me paste
<@SLViehl> Go ahead, Amanda, sorry
<Robert> lol Sarah "son of the preacher man"
<Crista> I wrecked my parents' wedding. My mom went into labor with me during the reception. (g)
<Kaelle> lol
<Danielle> lol, Crista!
<Robert> lol Crista!
<@SLViehl> One way to crash a party, Crista, lol
<Sarah> I wrecked a wedding once... <six year old voice shrills>, "he said HOLY MACARONI!!!
<Amanda> okay, I've noticed that when my characters meet new people, they tend to learn key bacground infomation from them (of course) and that the information usually is in the form of a tale. I like this method, but I was wondering if it could be overused. If so, what other style could I use?
<Robert> She wanted cake. They put out cake, they should have expected her.
<Gerri> lol, Crista
<@SLViehl> Oh, good question, Amanda
<Robert> They learn key backgrounds by observation.
<@SLViehl> Overhearing arguments is one of my favorites.
<Amanda> It's already pretty long, Robert...
<Robert> She noticed his hands were callused heavily and metal splinters were ground into the calluses.
<Danielle> Your character makes assumptions sometimes, that turn out to be wrong
<Gerri> they get dumped into the middle of things and find out the hard way.
<Kaelle> That could be a recurring style for the entire story. I would like that, Amanda.
<@SLViehl> "If you hadn't let that no good sister of yours marry my brother . . . "
<Jebbo> You can see them arrive in town, dusty from travel with a well worn sword at the hip . . . observation
<Anne_Marble> Sort of like Chaucer.
<Robert> They fail to notice important things that the reader does by deduction.
<@SLViehl> I did one story where the history of the town was presented in bard song.
<Danielle> Other characters tell them about someone's past... and they lie
<Robert> A tale is presented and it's hearsay contradicted later in the book.
<Gerri> they're sitting there having a drink and someone mistakes them for someone else...
<Amanda> cool
<beard> observations by other people overheard by the main character
<Kaelle> lol, Danielle
<Gerri> they end up in a fight because they try to stop the wrong thing from happening...
<@SLViehl> Someone else did tattoos once -- Bradbury, right?
<Gerri> they tell off the wrong person.
<@SLViehl> The Illustrated Man.
<Robert> Bradbury Illustrated Man - they moved and the reader got the tale.
<beard> "The Illustrated Man"
<Jebbo> Have conversations. Drop hints, mention unfamiliar events but don't explain them, after enough fragments the reader picks up the meaning
<@SLViehl> His whole body was backstory. And separate stories. And weird stuff.
<Robert> They notice key things and misunderstand and have conflicts over it.
<Amanda> wow
<beard> that's why I don't have a tattoo of a spaceship on me
<Robert> Yeah.
<Anne_Marble> One of the characters is Sherlock of Holmes
<Danielle> Character has a brochure that gives salient facts (they're famous in their own mind)
<BarGnat> hehe
<@SLViehl> Honorifics are good too. "This is Gerald, Son of Dead Harold the Dragon-Slayer, etc etc."
<Amanda> lol
<beard> Danielle I like that
<@SLViehl> Oh, neat, Danielle.
<Gerri> they have stuff for sale...they notice the heraldry/crests/banners/etc., and so on.
<Danielle> 'Here's my manager, talk to her'
<Sarah> The other characters talk about him. "Gerald did this... Gerald never did that... Do you remember when Gerald..."
<James> Agree, good one, Danielle -- an intelligent, omniscient "Who's Who..."
<Anne_Marble> Especially if they later find out that the Dragon-Slayer didn't.
<Robert> Heraldry is good. Three chapters later a herald says "The badge of a red trillim belongs to this creepy heroic family that often throws evil world dominating villains"
<beard> e-bay in real life, sort of
<@SLViehl> Murals on the walls, depicting famous battles. Tapestries are good too
<Robert> The character's enemies tell the tale.
<Jebbo> "Oh, I got that scar when I killed the dragon" . . . <whispered aside>"No, he got it in a bar brawl"
<Anne_Marble> Kind of like those Christmas cards that come with newsletters...
<@SLViehl> lol Jebbo
<Gerri> the little old antiqutarian....
<Kaelle> lol Jebbo
<Amanda> lol Jebbo
<Gerri> the drunks out in front of the tavern....
<Robert> The character's habits give him away. He turns around poised to kill when a child tickles him.
<Amanda> LOL Gerri... I read that as lil' old octogenarian..
<@SLViehl> gossip between tavern wenches
<Gerri> (depending on time period) newspapers
<Anne_Marble> Maybe as a part of this society, everyone has a little card that says a poem about them, sort of like a combination of the cards people left at each other's houses in days of yore and bards
<Danielle> Cool, Anne
<Robert> Bards exaggerate everything that person does and they deny it fervently.
<beard> tales, I'm working with including history in normal dialogue,
<Danielle> A chronicler follows them around
<@SLViehl> Pat Wallace did a paranormal romance where everyone wore their zodiac crest on their clothes. You knew exactly what type of person they were by looking at it.
<Robert> they tell the tale differently depending on who they tell it to.
<Amanda> Oh, I can do it in normal dialogue, I just didn't want to over do it
<Jebbo> Inner dialog is another tool. The POV character can notice things and think about them, have recollections. "Oh, this must be the guy who ate the Giant Peach"
<Danielle> Sheila, way cool!
<@SLViehl> Maybe not Pat Wallace, but someone back in the seventies....
<@SLViehl> The astrological equivalent of wearing your heart on your sleeve....
<Robert> "We came to a parting of the ways and I left on this journey" v. "You don't want to know about my ex. And you don't want to let her know where I am eitehr." And a flinch at the sight of red heads.
<Amanda> Very good ideas!
<@SLViehl> Subtle and nice, Robert.
<Anne_Marble> Sheila> I think Gene DeWeese wrote one of those as a Gothic. But I think other people wrote in the same series.
<beard> You could definitely use the heraldry motif, perhaps significant ribbons, badges, and clothes describe the persons position in life and what they do
<Robert> Then she turns up "He hasn't paid child support in eight years, where is that deadbeat?"
<Danielle> Lies and secrets are also good to remember for fictional characters
<@SLViehl> Reading not only into the dialogue but body language
<Jebbo> Tools of the trade are also quitre useful. William changed the tape in his video camera and started shooting. He focused on Emily as she swam towards the shark
<Robert> Two sides to every story - slant them accordingly.
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, maybe there's somebody who can see ghosts, and the ghosts tell them things...
<@SLViehl> Haunted by backstory. I like it.
<Danielle> Wow, Anne
<Robert> Cool, Anne!
<Amanda> rofl
<Amanda> I like it too! And it's apt!
<@SLViehl> Anything to get the backstory out in a creative way is okay by me
<Kaelle> A ghost whispering in POV's ear.. cool.
<Robert> Someone confides in their cat.
<Anne_Marble> Did you ever see the "Storm of the Century" miniseries? The bad guy could see bad things the characters had hidden. It was cool and creepy.
<Robert> Dean Koontz "Don't lie to the dog."
<Anne_Marble> And he was a hunk, but that's another thing. (Colm Feore fan)
<@SLViehl> lol Robert
<beard> What just happened?
<Danielle> You find a tape recorder or diary where character has recorded secret thoughts
<Robert> But what if like King Midas someone's overhearing while someone confides in a pet what they won't tell anyone - and that's the worst possible person?
<@SLViehl> Not sure, beard, can you give us some details?
<Amanda> did you get booted, beard?
<Anne_Marble> Did you disconnect?
<beard> The computer just restarted with no warning or flicker of lights
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Amanda?
<Jebbo> Cato
<Anne_Marble> Beard> You are running Microsoft. :-/
<Amanda> Cato has traversed the realms to chase after the newbie! Everyone form ranks!!
<BarGnat> Cato is the local "tigger", beard
<beard> yup is that an issue
<Danielle> Geat question, Amanda! neat ideas for all
<beard> ?
<Robert> Try varying it a lot and make sure there's always conflict surrounding the telling or showing. Demanding an explanation after a char. does something's a good way to start a fight and explanation.
<@SLViehl> Oh, geez, Jebbo, did I skip you?
<Jebbo> Yup, 'cos I passed
<@SLViehl> Oh, okay. Sorry. momentary panic.
<Jebbo> I almost have a question
<Amanda> Thanks everyone! Wonderful ideas!
<Anne_Marble> You can always almost ask an almost question.
<BarGnat> close counts, Jebbo
<@SLViehl> Want to go at the end of the list, Jebbo?
<Gerri> sorry...scritching kitty under chin
<Robert> Jebbo said "down to the bottom till I think of what it is"
<Kaelle> lol Anne
<Danielle> We can almost give you answers
<@SLViehl> Or throw it to us now?
<Robert> (Ari is purring a lot at that)
<beard> I have a question does this happen often that "Cato" doesn't like microsoft?
<Jebbo> Sheila: yes, I might have just about worked it out by then . . . at the end
<JamiJo> Cato doesn't like ANYONE
<@SLViehl> Cato doesn't like anything, beard.
<BarGnat> Cati hates all of us
<@SLViehl> I'll put you down at the end, then
<BarGnat> the whole world
<beard> ahh. I understand now
<Robert> Cato is very nasty and an equal opportunity party pooper
<Amanda> We've tried bribes, pleas, we've shot him, stabbed him, even ignored him. He doesn't care
<Kaelle> But especially Microsoft.
<Kay> no worse on MsftIE than on Netscape
<@SLViehl> All right, thanks all for some pretty cool ideas. James, you're up, then Danielle is after James.
<Robert> Cato has gone after Dstar on the Linux machine though.
<Gerri> puts in the Irish Drinking Song CD
<BarGnat> EOPP is right!
<Amanda> oooo- and he's multi-formatted! Naughty Cato
<James> Oh, Sheila --- sorry, I'd passed near the beginning, claiming not enough writing this week to generate any questions...
<Kaelle> Oooh, Cato is growing. Bad.
<Amanda> Oh, when I came home on Monday night, as drunk as drunk could beeeeee
<beard> I shouldn't complain I'm amazed that this machine works at all
<@SLViehl> No problem James -- sorry I missed that. Danielle, you're up.
<Danielle> I was afraid you'd say that... no question here, either!
<James> No worries
<beard> Ok, than I have a little question
<beard> if it's ok
<James> Jebbo, how's that question coming ...?
<Danielle> Please, take mine
<@SLViehl> It's okay, Danielle, we won't yell. Sarah, do you mind if beard goes ahead of you?
<Anne_Marble> Am I still here?
<Gerri> yes, anne
<Amanda> we see you Anne
<Sarah> Not at all. G'head.
<Robert> I see you, Anne!
<Kaelle> Yes, Anne
<@SLViehl> You're still with us, Anne
<BarGnat> yup, Anne
<beard> Anneyou are
<James> Yep, Anne
<@SLViehl> Okay beard, give us your question
<Anne_Marble> Wow, lag.
<beard> OK, I have 2 main characters, magic users,
<beard> actually outside of the laws of nature
<beard> they have a good connection to the church
<beard> do I need to explain why they like the church and the church likes them?
<beard> I can do it, I'm just not sure I want to
<Kaelle> Does the church know of their magic?
<Jebbo> Hint at it; give it in pieces
<Amanda> will it be instrumental in understanding their motives?
<James> Only if it's unusual for that to be the case.
<Sarah> Only if it's important to the story. If the church is one that loves everybody no matter what, it's not really necessary.
<Jebbo> when does the reader need to know?
<Robert> Show it, show them acting consistently with the church's ethics and if the church i susually squidgy about magic, have a preist have to defend them to an inquisitor.
<@SLViehl> If the church usually prosecutes or condemns magic users, yeah, I think I'd want to know why.
<beard> They're very old and consider the church to be a contemporary
<beard> a peer as it were
<James> Does the church normally persecute magic users?
<BarGnat> and vice versa?
<beard> The church is the Catholic church we are familiar with
<Sarah> Now, it'd be really cool if they had a connection to the BUILDING....
<Anne_Marble> They could watch younger people worshipping in a new way and cluck their tongues.
<Kaelle> What does the church get from liking them and vice versa?
<Robert> Still throw in the priest and inquisitor as a subplot, it would be funny and a nice joke on "what if the medieval church had to live with living apostles from time of founder?"
<@SLViehl> You could explain that type of relationship with a few one-liners as the magic-users interact with a church official.
<James> Ah, got you.
<@SLViehl> mutual respect and all that
<BarGnat> Are there any other magic users in the same situation?
<Robert> Oh yeah. Amusing if they donated the plot for the building!
<Jebbo> beard: what period of the catholic church? It has changed severely several times!
<Anne_Marble> Ever read Fritz Leiber's... ack!!! ... thingie!!!! The one about a religion in the future that used science to make miracles.
<James> Why does the Church like them?
<Sarah> (I have a House that's fond of people...)
<@SLViehl> Priests and rabbis usually have fond respect for each other, from what I've seen -- and radically different views
<Amanda> lol Sarah
<Robert> Then there's an argument within the Church on whether to saint them and it might have gone far enough that they got beatified.
<Jebbo> The churh in the 12th and 13th century fostered science, later they didn't, etc
<beard> Nice idea but no. I'm thinking that because they live for centuries there are very few things or people that last as long as they do
<Robert> They're more respectable as Saints than Mages.
<Robert> And if they're good adn do good deeds some priests will want them canonized and cite tehir bibilical aging as part of proof of sainthood.
<Robert> Even if they argue it's magic.
<beard> They're kind of like timex watches they just keep on ticking
<Robert> "But your magic is a gift of God for your sainthood."
<beard> A few saints were this kind of mage
<Kaelle> nice line of reasoning, Robert.
<Jebbo> As they have been alive for centuries, the church has already beatified them and they're up for sainthood . . . but the church doesn't realise they are still alive
<BarGnat> and once canonized, it's kinda like being tenured
<Robert> And don't let the two agree on that or any church issue either, get those old beardy philosophers arguing pro or con on these things.
<@SLViehl> That can lead to complications on both sides, I think, Robert. Good conflict, if beard needs it.
<beard> not many, most saints have to die
<Robert> And it lets you toss the interesting history bits about canonization processes and what is or isn't sainthood, what it means.
<@SLViehl> (aka Kick the Catholic church where it hurts, lol)
<Jebbo> They are a proxy for L Ron Hubbard, and actually founded the church
<beard> Actually I've got a bit about the crusades and the Military orders of the church
<Robert> Mother Theresa was a very cool saint.
<beard> Not a saint yet, beatified
<beard> still needs a verifiable miracle
<Robert> Cause she still got mean and grumpy when people interfered. I thought they'd canonized her, that she was one of the rare ones who got it in life.
<Robert> Feh. ALl those live kids don't count as miracles?
<@SLViehl> are you basing your church on Catholicism, beard?
<beard> Oh yes, it is this world, the story takes place this coming fall
<Amanda> it is Catholic, Sheila
<Robert> Then it could be wide open on what is and isn't miracles with numerous ones spoiled by the more skeptical of the pair saying "no, this is how we did that"
<@SLViehl> oh, okay
<beard> I've already figured an agreement with Pius I around 150 AD
<Robert> I'd be amused if one wanted canonization and the other didn't.
<beard> No Canonization. Period
<beard> ick
<Robert> But any miracles attached themselves ironically to the one who didn't want it.
<BarGnat> beatification?
<@SLViehl> The Vatican archives book I'm reading has plenty of ancient agreements written during unstable times between the Church and other entities.
<beard> maybe beatification
<Jebbo> Hmm . . . is the fact that I'm currently listening to the Sisters of Mercy a coincidence?
<beard> sheila, what book is that?
<Amanda> Beard, to answer your question, I don't think you'll have to explain the connection between the two unless the church plays a key role in the story
<Robert> Their relationship with the church would be complicated adn full of church trivia stuff including historical church ideas no longer held.
<@SLViehl> Secret Archives of the Vatican, I think the title is. Great book, btw
<Robert> They might still be arguing a fifteenth century theological poitn. They're old. You can do that.
<beard> Well, one of the main characters has a great-grandniece who is a priest
<Jebbo> The church had a tricky relationship with magic in the middle ages. Many magicians were actually clerics, particularly necromancers!
<beard> I took liberties with Vatican II
<Robert> Cool - so it's an alt.church anyway with women canonized.
<BarGnat> they could even end each argument with a "this too shall pass" comment
<Amanda> Maybe they have a "don't bother us, we don't bother you" type of relationship,then? Or is it even more pleasant than that?
<@SLViehl> Oh, neat. Women priests
<Robert> Some friendships get built on debate.
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for beard?
<Robert> I figure it'll go for women priests eventually, will have to.
<beard> Hermetic reasoning plays a point
<beard> part
<James> I don't see a need to overexplain their good relationship with the Church unless they're actively doing things that are anti-doctrine or anti-Church.
<Amanda> I agree
<@SLViehl> I like the idea of an ancient pact between the church and the magic-users, with documentation dating way back. Lots of conflict, mystery in that.
<Robert> You have neat characters and yes, the church would be important to them. Show it in bits and random snippets as it's that deep int heir lives, when relevant.
<beard> They're going to Rome to meet the Cardinals
<Robert> I'd think of the Church as a character too.
<Amanda> ROFLOL Yep, that's relevant
<Jebbo> "The Compact" -- good idea from "Faust, Alpeh, Null" by Bradbury
<Jebbo> aleph
<beard> Thanks so I'm not all wet with this idea then
<beard> ?
<Robert> Not at all.
<Kaelle> Nah, sounds good.
<James> Heavens no.
<Amanda> it's workable
<BarGnat> gnope
<Kay> sounded pretty workable clay to me
<Robert> It's rich with potential no matter which directions you take it.
<beard> I've a friend who thinks I need to devote at least a chapter to it
<@SLViehl> I think it sounds like fun, beard, go for it.
<beard> Thanks folks
<James> It's a nice change from all that I'm the Church hear me persecute stuff.
<BarGnat> I'd say more, but SOMEONE hasn't emailed me yet
<@SLViehl> A chapter? Nah.
<Amanda> hehe
<Robert> If you spread a chapter's worth thin through all the rest it'll work real well. Or a couple chapters worth here and there in tidbits like a subplot.
<beard> Was that a Hint Mary?
<Kay> me?,, not not me.
<Jebbo> more like snippets dispersed through the story
<Kaelle> intertwined history
<@SLViehl> I'm with Jebbo
<BarGnat> 2000# one, beard
<beard> snippets it is, maybe background with the crusades
<Robert> And the less those two agree on it the better and the deeper their friendship shows.
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for some great suggestions -- Danielle, are you still passing?
<Amanda> (wonders if the herring will start to fly any moment now)
<BarGnat> Kay> beard promised to send me some stuff on that story
<BarGnat> whine
<Danielle> Sheila, brain is dead, thanks though, I'm formulating one slowly for next week
<Kay> oh, good gnot me!
<@SLViehl> get the crash cart for Dani.
<Kay> thanx
<Fredrick> I'm back. Using my sister's computer.
<BarGnat> gnever!
<@SLViehl> Sarah, you're passing too?
<Danielle> Please, no electricity
<James> Welcome back
<Amanda> Heyla Fredrick
<Danielle> heya, Fredrick!
<Sarah> Nope, got one. More of a post-writing than writing question though.
<beard> electricity is your friend
<Kay> only for your computer Daniell
<@SLViehl> That'd dedication, Fredrick
<Amanda> go ahead, Sarah
<Kay> Oh, that anon was YOU! Hi Frederick
<@SLViehl> Hand it over, Sarah
<Sarah> Jory's Song came back again this week, so I'm still trying to find it a home. Can anyone think of a market that might take a slightly twisted, futuristic retelling of a fairy tale? (F&SF and Scifiction turned it down).
<@SLViehl> Have you run it through the DNA gamut yet, Sarah?
<Anne_Marble> realms of Fantasy?
<Kaelle> How about Realms of Fantasy
<Kay> WEird Tales?
<Fredrick> Future Orbits.
<Anne_Marble> Oh, futuristic, never mind.
<beard> don't know markets, sorry
<Sarah> DNA?
<James> Asimov's has done that sort of thing.
<Steven> there! kids in bed.
<@SLViehl> DNA Publications
<Kay> Where was that that posted Zette's and Justin's stories?
<Anne_Marble> DNA Publications
<Fredrick> Is it classified as science fiction?
<@SLViehl> www.dnapublications.com, I think
<@SLViehl> That's Warren Lapine's collection of print mags. Wide variety of genre
<Sarah> Well, seeing as half the Asimov Award judges are from the magazine and they didn't like it, I'm not sending it there. Okay, writing stuff down...
<Kay> justins oine about the metor...
<BarGnat> is it novel length?
<Sarah> (From Asimov's, not DNA)
<Fredrick> Dave Felts at SF.reader.com
<beard> what!!! you can get paid for this? Who'd have thunk
<Gerri> http://www.ralan.com/
<Ari> You could check ralan's for anthologies too.
<Gerri> try that link...it's got tons of markets.
<Amanda> lol Beard
<Gerri> grins at robert
<James> Am I imagining it, or does Ellen Datlow do a series of updated fairy tale anthologies?
<Ari> Purr!
<@SLViehl> You know -- that may fit the Low Port anthology Sharon Lee and Steve Miller are putting together for Meisha Merlin.
<Anne_Marble> She and Windling, I think
<Ari> Robert's chat window started clogging so I opened one and we're using mine.
<beard> ::scritches ari between the ears::
<Sarah> She and Terri Windling do, but I think it's invitation only, and I think they wrapped it up...
<Jebbo> Interzone in the UK do sci-fi
<Ari> Purr purr
<James> Darn.
<@SLViehl> I posted a note about that antho on the markets board -- check it out, Sarah, I think the deadline is June.
<Sarah> Really? Hmmm....
<@SLViehl> Low Port is an open antho
<Ari> Um, that would mean an hour left to send it.
<beard> Post fast!!!
<@SLViehl> If you got it postmarked tomorrow, though....
<James> It's already too late where I'm from
<Amanda> Nice kitty! You can tell time! Oh, what a smart boy you are!
<BarGnat> hee hee
<Ari> Purr Linnet!
<Danielle> Oh good lord, James, it's June!
<Fredrick> The Palace of Reason
<James> Scary, innit?
<@SLViehl> Are you going for strictly print mags, Sarah?
<Fredrick> Strange Horizons.
<beard> Mickeys big hand is on the four mickey's little hand is ::ROWLF!::
<Danielle> Yessir.
<Amanda> lol
<Sarah> For now, yeah. For purely personal and not REALLY spiteful reasons.
<Ari> I was just going to say that, Strange Horizons and Deep Outside SFFH are pro markets.
<@SLViehl> James exists in our future, guys. We time travel every time we chat with him.
<Fredrick> Oops.
<Fredrick> NFG
<beard> time travel, cool didn't James Hogan write about this?
<Amanda> Cheryl! Heya
<Fredrick> But you submit via their website.
<Ari> I like the online submission pro markets more because there's no postage and they tend to reply faster and confirm you sent it real fast.
<@SLViehl> hey cherylp
<Kaelle> Hey cherylp!
<Ari> Hey Cherylp!
<Danielle> Hi, Cheryl!
<cherylp> Hello! Hot crowd tonight!
<James> Anyone want race results, lotto numbers... ?
<Crista> The deadline for the Lowport anthology is the 15th of July.
<beard> Hello Cheryl
<Kay> hello Cheryl!!!!
<Kaelle> Yeah, James, if that really would work!
<@SLViehl> Fredrick, is there anything on the rumor mill that could help Sarah? A submissions topic?
<Ari> Oh good, thanks Crista. I didn't know when it was.
<Amanda> I want my husbands' death date, please, James
<beard> James was it you I was talking to earlier
<beard> ?
<Fredrick> Market News and New Markets might help.
<Kaelle> Amanda, husbands'? More than one? lol
<Fredrick> Also General Questions about markets
<@SLViehl> Sarah, try the rumor mill too -- www.rumormill.org, they've got some serious writers over there.
<Sarah> The biggest problem people seem to have is that it's a fairy tale. They want something completely original, not derivative.
<@SLViehl> (including Fredrick, of course)
<Amanda> Yeah, this one is only my first. He'll do until Second comes along LOL
<Anne_Marble> Wow, weird, armed robbery involving more than five dozen teenagers forced to disrobe and jump in Loch Raven reservoir. :-<
<James> I'll put you on the mailing list, Kaelle...
<Kaelle> G
<Fredrick> Also you might try Full Unit Hook Up. Mark Rudolph is really nice.
<James> Where, beard?
<@SLViehl> You know the road less travelled is always tougher, Sarah. Don't give up on it.
<beard> Anne, where do you find these things?
<Amanda> Sarah... the problem with that would be that they know what's gonna happen, right?
<Anne_Marble> Local news.
<beard> James were you in chat earlier?
<Jebbo> Sarah: tell that to the woman who rewrote "The Snow Queen"
<Amanda> Which fairy tale is it on, may I ask?
<Danielle> oops, gotta go, thanks all!
<Fredrick> Oh, I forgot. FUHU is a E-market. But I'd still recommend it.
<@SLViehl> Nigh Danielle
<Ari> Or Tanith Lee who pulls it all the time.
<beard> By danielle
<@SLViehl> nigh=night
<Amanda> Night Dani
<Jebbo> forget her name for the moment . . . he rhusband wrote A Fire upon the deep
<Kaelle> Night Dani
<Sarah> It's not REALLY obvious which it is until the end, Amanda.
<Danielle> (I'm nigh?)
<Anne_Marble> Vinge
<beard> Vernor Vinge and what is her name
<Kaelle> Vernor Vinge - Joan Vinge
<James> Ah, no, beard -- could it have been Jim Mills?
<Jebbo> Anne> thanks!
<@SLViehl> nigh=night, sorry lol
<cherylp> Man, that's a hard one, Sarah. Since fairy tales are really archetypes, it would be almost impossible to create originals.
<James> See you, Danielle
<beard> Perhaps James
<Fredrick> Good night, Danielle
<Amanda> ah, okay. I was gonna suggest researching back and finding the little twists in the original-original that may have been left out to see if that hleped
<Ari> G'night Danielle!
<Kay> sorry y
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Sarah?
<beard> hang on I'll get snow queen author in a moment
<Fredrick> Hans Christian Andersen?
<Kay> asorry yall were outta kay
<Kay> gnite
<Kaelle> Joan D. Vinge
<Jebbo> Joan Vinge . . .also the Summer Queen, Tangled in Blue in the same universe
<Amanda> Gnite Kay! Happy dreams!
<beard> Joan D Vinge
<Fredrick> Psion
<Kaelle> Night Kay
<Sarah> It's definitely NOT the typical version of the story. Not even close.
<Ari> G'night Kay! Happy writing!
<Anne_Marble> good idea, read the original stories, or the international variations
<@SLViehl> You know, that might be a good story for a YA anthology too. Knowing as little as I do about YA.
<@SLViehl> night Kay
<Fredrick> Good night, Kay.
<Ari> Then it sounds good. There's got to be markets around for it. Sheila has a point about YA - you could ask Justin. He knows the YA markets real well.
<@SLViehl> Justin would definitely know.
<Sarah> I'm not sure it's appropriate for Low Port -- the City is supposed to be the high point of Culture and Sophistication.
<cherylp> You know, Sarah, Robin McKinley is doing well rewriting fairy tales.
<Amanda> Most YA might not take the fairy tales as they were meant to be told. They were gruesome and gory and horrific. If hers is like that, but futuristic, they might not like it, either
<@SLViehl> but Jory and his Mom live in the equivalent of low port, kinda....
<Jebbo> C J Cherryh also retold some russian ones . .
<Fredrick> Cinderella as a rock opera.
<Sarah> (I think it's easier with novels than shorts). Sort of. It's actually a nice building, she's just in danger of losing it.
<Ari> Oh wow... Jack the Giant Killer as a Lowport story with a beanstalk space elevator...
<@SLViehl> okay, thanks all for the suggestions -- don't give up, Sarah Jebbo, got a question for the group?
<Amanda> lol
<Fredrick> Fee Fie Fo Fum
<cherylp> LOL, Robert! It is Robert, isn't it? <squints narrowly at the stranger>
<Jebbo> Ok, I have a setting (fantasy in the cracks 11th century Northumbria)
<Ari> It's Robert hiding under a hairy cat
<BarGnat> .
<Jebbo> I have a main characters, who is a slave in an iron works, I just have no idea what happens to him!
<cherylp> Hmmm. (g)
<Amanda> hehe
<Sarah> (Now Mercy and Cat would be a good Low Port story...)
<Gerri> you need a plot!
<Ari> I like the setting, I like the character and I can see some real obvious conflict there. "Take this job adn shove it!"
<Fredrick> What do you want to happen to him?
<Jebbo> So this is why I'm struggling with a question .. far too open ended
<@SLViehl> I withdrew from Low Port -- no more anthos for me....
<Amanda> oh boy oh boy oh boy! <rubs hands gleefuly>
<Fredrick> In danger of losing his job.
<Fredrick> Affair with the boss's daughter.
<Gerri> uh...slave?
<Ari> Slaves that lose their jobs sometimes get killed.
<Gerri> in danger of dying...yes.
<@SLViehl> A slave who leads a revolt and becomes a leader of a world is a popular theme.
<Jebbo> Slave . . . captures in a raid into Mercia
<Steven> a slave can say that? I dunno.
<@SLViehl> What do you want to say in this book, Jebbo? What's your theme?
<Fredrick> A slave who knows how to make steel, but boss won't listen to him.
<Ari> A slave can say anything but a flogging may follow rapidly as an example.
<Gerri> yeah. a Spartacus figure.
<Fredrick> Makes iron.
<Kaelle> How did he become a slave?
<Fredrick> Born into it?
<Ari> Makes iron. That's a good one right there.
<cherylp> A slave can say anything, Steven. Of course, a slave can also die....horribly...... <EG>
<Gerri> who was he b4 becoming a slave.
<Fredrick> Is there magic involved?
<Jebbo> Theme . . . good question. Struggle against circumstance probably.
<Gerri> if he's just ordinary person...one kind of thing. if he was noble..another kind of thing.
<Ari> Captured in Mercia. Then he's got relations who aren't slaves, he's got motive to find a way to get his chains off and escape maybe with his buds or throw a revolution.
<Amanda> "Questions, questions, so many questions... you wanna shard? Here!"
<Jebbo> Yes, there is magic but not much overtly
<Gerri> and depending on what rank, what age, yada yada yada.
<Fredrick> Maybe slave has magic powers over iron, boss might try to manipulate him into beating the competition.
<Ari> And if a princess falls for him all sorts of trouble!
<Sarah> Can there be Something in the iron that gives what is made some sort of unusual property? (thinking of the opening of Brisco County Jr....)
<Gerri> you need backstory, too.
<cherylp> Maybe you could find something your slave really wants, jebbo.
<Fredrick> Even while his powers slowly kill him.
<@SLViehl> I'd just like to see a plain old slave overcome everyone once and not turn out to be a long-lost Prince or something.
<Kaelle> lol Sheila
<Amanda> there ya go
<Anne_Marble> Cold iron. It can hurt the elves.
<Gerri> is he allergic to iron?
<Fredrick> How about a Princess insteade
<Jebbo> oh, the back story is easy. Historical events in 11th century northumbria
<Ari> Yeah. While I've done my share of the long lost Princes, a slave who's really just a slave is very cool.
<@SLViehl> Iron is lethal to magic users in some mythology
<cherylp> Whoo hoo, Sarah! Another Brisco Co. Jr. watcher!
<Jebbo> He's not noble
<James> Iron work and low key magic suggests connection to the Faeries and their allergy to iron....
<Gerri> backstory for plot not backstory for character.
<Gerri> different things.
<Fredrick> I thought it was silver, or is that werewolves?
<Jebbo> nor is he a mage
<Jebbo> just a normal bloke
<James> Reading Anne's mind, there.
<Gerri> stakes.
<Ari> Family ties and freedom and possible love interest are possible themes. Falling for a woman he can't have could shake him out of it.
<Gerri> what's he got to lose or gain?
<Kaelle> Fredrick, iron is connected with faeries.
<Gerri> decide that, and you've got a plot.
<Ari> What if he loves the boss's wife? Or a faerie girl who's allergic to his job?
<@SLViehl> The iron works itself suggests a theme -- taking raw, unworked ore, melting it, forging it, bonding it into something unbreakable....
<Fredrick> What if he got the boss's daughter pregnant and had to hide it by dumping her in molten iron?
<@SLViehl> sounds like something you could do to the slave himself.
<Gerri> that's sadistic, fredrick.
<Ari> Fredrick, you're sick. I like you and I'm glad you're back.
<Fredrick> Then she comes back to haunt him.
<Fredrick> With an iron baby!
<Gerri> you know, there's this folk tale about a bell ringer...
<cherylp> Okay, Fred. I'm not coming over to your house. Ever. (g)
<Jebbo> Sheila, you're on to something. The ironworks is a metaphor for the slave. He is forged into much sterner stuff
<@SLViehl> Fredrick, you are not allowed to date my daughter.
<Ari> The common slave hero is usually nobler than thou good guy.
<Gerri> err...bell caster....he couldn't get the bells to work w/out human flesh...
<@SLViehl> lol
<Kaelle> Fredrick's mind has connections to another dimension. (g)
<Fredrick> Good men are so hard to find
<Anne_Marble> Hey, ever read Samuel R. Delaney's "Tales of Neveryon"? ;-> The hero is a slave at the beginning...
<Ari> Ari wants to date your cat though, Sheila
<Gerri> we've got the Conan method, too.
<Gerri> or Ben Hur.
<@SLViehl> I've been getting into forging blades with my research, and it's fascinating stuff, Jebbo -- you might want to turn that theme around, see how it fits.
<Gerri> Spartacus....
<beard> Ari wants to date Ben Hur?
<Fredrick> Does he have to be a slave? Can he be a regular worker?
<Ari> He's smarter than the bosses, he could run the mine lots better. Fate moves him and he marries the boss's daughter and now he does.
<Gerri> thinks
<@SLViehl> My cats are all its, sorry, Ari
<Anne_Marble> "I'm Spartacus."
<Ari> mew
<Jebbo> Yup . . . this whole thing started from a conference paper at Kalamazzo this year!
<Ari> robert won't take me to the cat house
<Kaelle> snarf
<Jebbo> He's definitely a slave, I can see him
<Gerri> there's the novel called "The Robe" you might consider for ideas.
<Gerri> what KIND of slave?
<cherylp> Robert has taste, Ari.
<Fredrick> Or maybe the slave falls in love with his male boss, but he can't have him because of the social stigma attached with dating a slave.
<Gerri> war bounty?
<Amanda> I've been thinking.... 11th centurey men weren't too concerned with the fate of others. He may worry about his family, but he's trying to get away from slavery, I don't think he'd care too much if he left any others behind
<Ari> He gets bought out of the mines by a decadent rich woman who wants him for a pet-servant- gigolo
<beard> Fredrick , you have a low and wonderful mind
<Jebbo> he is one of 4 guys who stoke one of the furnaces . . .at least that is how he starts
<@SLViehl> I can see the title: Will of Iron.
<cherylp> Ari, just say no! (g)
<Gerri> boooooohiissssssssssssss
<Ari> Oh yeah, that's a good title Sheila
<Fredrick> Forge of Destiny
<Kaelle> Good title
<@SLViehl> Or Iron Will.
<beard> Buns of Steel?
<Amanda> ROFL
<Yvonne> lol
<Steven> Iron Will's been done.
<Ari> rofl!
<Kaelle> lol
<@SLViehl> Nah, that sounds too much like Iron Mike.
<Amanda> that ones' taken
<Gerri> *has a Shakespearean backround....*
<cherylp> LOL!
<Fredrick> How about Heaqvy metal
<Fredrick> Heavy Metal
<Sarah> <shudders>
<Amanda> (groans)
<Ari> The Iron Dream got done, so did Triumph of the Will.
<beard> ouch
<Gerri> name of a too-well-known movie
<@SLViehl> But seriously, Jebbo, if you work off the theme of forging ore into iron, and apply that to this slave of yours, the book pratically writes itself.
<@SLViehl> and you don't have to do the usual stuff. You can go wide with this kind of theme.
<Fredrick> Men are like iron. You forge them in heat.
<Ari> Yeah. It screams theme.
<Steven> with a lot of help from your fingers, of course
<Jebbo> Sheila, I know . . .thanks for the inspriation. I can see where I';m going now
<Amanda> nods and maybe he has more of a head for business... a Shawshank kind of deal
<cherylp> How about just "Iron" ?
<Fredrick> Another title: Banging the Rod
<Gerri> booohisssss
<Ari> rofl Fredrick!
<Kaelle> rofl, Fred
<Amanda> wince
<beard> evil evil evil
<Fredrick> Oops, sorry.
<Anne_Marble> Heck, he could be the prison librarian...
<beard> love it
<Jebbo> lol
<Fredrick> A bit too blunt there.
<Ari> Gorok would love that
<cherylp> Not only am I not coming over to your house, Fred, I'm not even coming to your state. (g)
<Anne_Marble> Frederick, that could be a title for my story...
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Jebbo?
<beard> I'm not sure I want to write my current thought
<Gerri> flees
<Fredrick> Don't use banging the Rod. People might get the wrong idea about your story
<Steven> you think?
<cherylp> Really? (g)
<beard> Forged in Flame a cross dressing iron working slave takes over the empire
<Jebbo> Thanks a lot folks, I definitely see the way now!
<Ari> His opening motive is he would like to be free not a slave (though might love ironwork) and at the end he might want something completely different.
<@SLViehl> Forges and mining and iron, all great sources of theme.
<Amanda> really?
<Kaelle> Yay, Jebbo!
<Gerri> what if he had a talent for finding new iron veins?
<Gerri> valuable slave.
<Anne_Marble> What about a story where the slave would rather stay a slave because he likes the security? (As long as he gets out of the mines and becomes a house slave.)
<Amanda> eenie, meanie, miney.... hey, there it is!!
<Fredrick> You might want to avoid prophecy-based stories.
<Ari> He wants to become foreman.
<Ari> Overseer looks like career advancement and he's sure he'd be better than the present overseer.
<Fredrick> Maybe he forges swords for lords and a lord sees his talent and takes him under his wing.
<Fredrick> A blidungsroman
<James> That would actually be a good historical mystery series, Anne -- each time he tries he fails, ends up in a new, horrible milieu where he solves another murder while trying to get someone to take him as a house slave.
<Fredrick> Coming of age novel.
<@SLViehl> Thanks all -- Jebbo, come back and tell us more about this story, if you get a chance, I'd like to hear how it goes. Now, you people who slipped in the back while we weren't looking -- anyone have a question that can't wait until next Friday?
<Steven> not me
<Ari> I like that, James, that would be weird enough I'd read it even if it's mysteries.
<Yvonne> I have a question
<Ari> Purr!
<@SLViehl> Okay, Yvonne, let us have it
<James> I must write it down, just in case
<Yvonne> Right now my MC is both a kick-ass mage and can drain the magic out of just about anything.
<Yvonne> Should I limit her abilities and just make her a devourer?
<Gerri> no, just make it so she can't turn it off.
<Kaelle> Well, she needs consequences.
<Fredrick> Yes, limit her. More limits, tighter conflict.
<Amanda> she'd still need someplace for the magic to go, yes?
<Ari> What if she ODs on magic and gets side effects if she gets too into it - and or gets addicted and doesn't care about the side effects!
<@SLViehl> .
<Fredrick> Make it harder, not easier on her.
<cherylp> Limits are good. Look what the writers of Superman had to do in order to get some conflict going.
<Yvonne> actually she hasn't reached a limit of how much she can eat yet
<Ari> She's a kick ass mage and devours magic. Maybe it tastes better than chocolate. maybe she'd do anything to get it.
<James> I agree with Fredrick -- limits make the character try harder.
<Ari> Maybe she overuses it a lot.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe when she drains magic, she winds up putting people in comas and taking up their personalities -- like Rogue in X-Men. ;->
<beard> what does she do with it
<Gerri> or addicted.
<Jebbo> Limits. She overreaches and burns out.
<@SLViehl> Omnipotent characters are boring. I'd go for limits, too
<Gerri> limits or consequences.
<Sarah> Omnipotent characters are bor.... never mind.
<beard> why does she eat the magic?
<Ari> OD's and can't do magic for a while and goes ape and then binges on it again.
<@SLViehl> lol Sarah
<Gerri> lol
<Anne_Marble> She can end up carrying several people within her, or parts of them, yelling at her.
<Jebbo> Someone used to almost omnipotence now limited to prosaic powers might be interesting
<Fredrick> I don't like Rogue. She gains too much power. No real price.
<Fredrick> Except maybe emotional, but no physical trauma.
<Ari> And it takes more magic to satisfy the craving every time she overdoes it.
<Gerri> she pays a huge price, Fredrick....
<Yvonne> so I should drop her mage skills and just make her a devourer
<Gerri> not being able to touch anyone for someone desperate to love....
<beard> but what does she gain?
<Ari> Nah, her mage skills are interesting cause she could use the magic practically but it's so tempting to just munch.
<@SLViehl> Or downgrade her mage skills and make devouring her focus skill
<Jebbo> A psychological twist might work: she knows her powers are declining . . . how does she cope
<Fredrick> But the problem is that she becomes more powerful, not less. Thus it is easier.
<Jebbo> (see "Dying Inside" -- great book)
<Ari> Like if an alcoholic had to cook with booze.
<Fredrick> Powers should hinder as much as they help.
<Gerri> make her out of control....
<James> The mage skills could interfere with the Devourer skills or vice versa -- giving unpredictable results.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe if she devours magic, she knows that one of her skills will fade.
<Ari> And wasn't even trying to be sober. And magic gets wild when she puts in too much power. She fries out the spell structures and does random icky things.
<Gerri> and make it so she can't get under control without an enormous amount of skill.
<@SLViehl> Or have her mage powers wan as a result of her feeding -- she eats too much, she can't use her other powers.
<Fredrick> Devouring makes her sick, gives her cancer.
<Kaelle> The power that is her strength should also be her weakness, to borrow advice from Holly. (g)
<Ari> And her skills aren't quite up to the power level.
<Gerri> exactly.
<Sarah> Magical OD.
<Fredrick> Doro from Octavia Butler's Wild Seed
<Fredrick> Great villain.
<Gerri> so she's rogue in more than one way...and she can't be fixed b/c she devours the energy that's supposed to heal her.
<cherylp> Great villain, indeed, Frederick.
<Gerri> and outputs it.
<Anne_Marble> Sort of like those computer games where you can only carry a few items at once. (Ack, the one with the rusty knife and "Hello Sailor." You had to drop things to pick things up.)
<Ari> Or the stakes are raised because she's a great mage and a devourer but so are a lot of other people and she's nothing special, but she's addicted all right.
<Fredrick> Make the power hurt those she loves.
<Gerri> have the two things linked...mage and devourer....
<@SLViehl> she could be like a power cell -- too much, she gets fried
<Jebbo> There is a price: the greater her skill, the more she ages / looks ugly / loses limbs / loses loved ones / other price
<Fredrick> That's good.
<Gerri> maybe she becomes a weapon that gets taken out only when they need her.
<Sarah> As she takes too much, her body begins to shut down...
<Ari> Loses loved ones to acting like a crazy addict, get believable with addict behavior. Scares people with it.
<Gerri> and then it's point and run.
<beard> a magical bazooka
<BarGnat> grrrrrr. I really do hate my ISP
<Fredrick> Maybe she fills up with too much magic and she has to release it or else she dies.
<beard> welcome back
<Ari> She can only use high energy spells, loses the ability to do subtle or smaller spells. No candle lighting for this babe.
<cherylp> Hi, Mary.
<@SLViehl> power is a drug, just like a narcotic, in a way. You build up a tolerance, you always want more, then you have to have more just so you don't feel bad...
<Ari> Hi Mary
<Jebbo> What is the basic conflict? What does the MC want? Why does her magical ability prevent her getting this?
<@SLViehl> and it eventually kills you.
<BarGnat> hi. ::mutter, mutter::
<James> Or it releases itself, like an unstable star shrugging off matter, a quick blast to vent magic, whether she wants to or not.
<Ari> And she didn't set out to take over the world but she's so used to getting her way all the time.
<Gerri> or it affects her personality in some way....she devours everything she touches and get all their pain and...etc., and so on.
<Gerri> or she ends up taking on their sin/karma.
<Fredrick> Is she like a vampire?
<Ari> And she gets more selfish and more cruel with it because people just don't understand why she needs it.
<Gerri> and she gets punished instead of them...
<Yvonne> I'm debating how much to say exactly ...
<Gerri> or rewarded, depending on who she "ate"
<@SLViehl> nice, Gerri, I like that -- great consequences
<Ari> And of course she will run out of supply now and then. If she drains magical objects sooner or later theere won't be any Underwear of Perpetual Cleanliness left to munch.
<Crista> LOL. Sounds like you are describing Emara, Robert. (g)
<James> Perhaps the magic sheds as a temporary magical echo of her -- like a ghost, it can think and act in a limited way, then fades away after a couple of minutes.
<Fredrick> Maybe devouring causes her dementia
<Ari> rofl - well, Emara is brilliant.
<Gerri> those are directly related consequences...what about social consequences?
<Ari> Maybe karmic thermodynamics - destructive magic has an evil kickback - like vincalis
<Fredrick> She could be an outcast
<Kaelle> Fear of her
<Jebbo> Her magical ability has to be central to the conflict on the story . . . why is it important?
<Ari> Social consequences, people get scared of folks with bazookas and don't want them dating their sons
<Yvonne> this ability isn't the focus of the story, I just need to know whether it's better to make her less of an outright attacker
<Ari> She's pregnant and using too much magic could hurt the fetus.
<Fredrick> Good one, Ari
<James> Maybe casting a spell numbs the moral centre of the brain for several minutes immediately after casting: you become a sociopath, briefly, so no one wants you around.
<Ari> Give her serious consequences of any kind.
<Ari> Ooh temporary sociopathy is an interesting side effect!
<cherylp> Someone with those kinds of abilities has to be larger than life--either totally evil or totally good--that's why they need limits.
<Jebbo> If she is that good a mage, her ability must be an important element . . .
<Fredrick> If she is a sympathetic character, then yes.
<Gerri> doesn't matter except in terms of the story...does she balance w/ the rest of the people?
<Ari> Larger than life can be in both directions though, Cheryl.
<@SLViehl> someone who has the potential to become a lethal villain can be progressed, versus an outright omnipotent villain who comes complete with all the tools and spells. I'd start her out with limits, then challenge her as a character to grow.
<Gerri> if she's out of balance, either pump everyone up or drop her down.
<Ari> And if she wasn't setting out to be that powerful those who are would be threatened.
<Ari> And those with no magic but political power, very very threatened.
<Fredrick> Maybe she is an unwitting antagonist. Nobody thinks they are villains. What if she only drains people or things on the edge of death? And society sees this as a mortal sin?
<Steven> see y'all later
<Gerri> bbye, steven
<Kaelle> Bye Steven
<Ari> See you later, Steven!
<@SLViehl> night Steven
<Yvonne> okay, I'll drop her mage skills down to pathetic
<Fredrick> She thinks she's doing right, but they think she is doing wrong.
<beard> night steven
<James> See you, Steven.
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Yvonne?
<Ari> Then there's always "but what man could dominate her?" with patriarchal background.
<JamiJo> cya Steven
<Fredrick> Good night, Steven.
<cherylp> bye, Steven
<Gerri> like a vampire who only feeds on old people?
<Ari> And consequent near shunning of the scary witch.
<Anne_Marble> Yay, I think the sff.net finally works?!
<James> It seems to, Anne -- just got some mail through.
<Fredrick> What if she is like Anakin Skywalker, abusing the magic?
<@SLViehl> I'd have a catalyst that makes this character become a danger, start her out with limits, and then let her grow and change as she acquires more power.
<Ari> I'd like to see a weird riff off the MZB "feminist v. patriarchy" thing where this woman is everything the patriarchs say witches are, is that mad, but does not have much grass roots support and longs for people.
<Fredrick> Maybe her father raped her at a young age and now she sees all men as enemies.
<Fredrick> So she devours them.
<Yvonne> now you're just getting weird
<Fredrick> And she is forming a league of devours to destroy all men of royal blood.
<Fredrick> because her father was of royal blood.
<cherylp> Devours implies hunger. What does she hunger for so much that the devouring magic is so out of control?
<BarGnat> Even worse, Fredrick, what if she had a flaming desire for her father and he rejected her
<@SLViehl> Ah, well, thanks for the great suggestions, and another wonderful TT session, everyone.
<Gerri> shades of Myrrh...
<Fredrick> Good twist, BarGnat.
<beard> Mary, that was sick, twisted and a good story idea
<BarGnat> Been listening to you too long?
<Fredrick> Who me (g)
<BarGnat> yup, you
<BarGnat> hehehe
<James> It was another great session. Again, thanks Sheila for hosting it.
<Fredrick> I'm innocent, your honor.
<Gerri> thank you.
<Ari> Thank you, Sheila! It was great!
<cherylp> Thanks, Sheila. C ya.
<BarGnat> Thanks Sheil, and all
<beard> Sheila thank you very much
<Anne_Marble> <<<<clap clap clap>>>>
<Sarah> Thanks Sheila!
<Jebbo> Thanks y'all . . .
<BarGnat> Sheila.... sigh
<@SLViehl> I'm going to make a transcript and get it up on the board, you all have a great weekend. Hope to see you here next Friday night
<JamiJo> thanks sheila Sorry i didn't say much I'll be back next week
<Kaelle> Thanks everyone! Thanks Sheila! I'm off to study the suggestions for my question. Good night and good writing!
<beard> :::scritches Sheila between the ears::
<Ari> See you Friday! Happy writing!
<Fredrick> Thanks, Sheila. It was fun.
<BarGnat> nite-all
<beard> ::scritches ari between the ears::