Workshop & Class Transcripts: Checking on Culture, Class 7

Class 7

Pre-Class Rules: Please do not post until you see the word QUESTIONS posted. Please don't chat during class. Please stop posting question when you see CLASS.

There is a lot of material to cover, although some sections are shorter than others. I will be very happy to answer any questions later if I miss them here.

The size of print in this chat is small, and I have trouble reading it. I may misunderstand a question. If so, ask again or ask later.

I will cut and paste a number of blocks, one after another, and then post QUESTIONS. At that point I'll stop while everyone reads what's been posted and asks any questions.

And now the class!

Welcome to Lee Killough's Checking on Culture -- A checklist for Cultural Building. This is the primary book I've used for this class. Definitions come from the Random House Webster's College Dictionary.

I also used various other books in my house to check some of the items, while other parts are called up from memory. I hope that some or all of it will help you develop interesting backgrounds for your manuscripts.

Lee Killough has several books available from Meisha Merlin Press: Blood Walk and Blood Games, Bridling Chaos, and the upcoming Wilding Nights. You can find more information on these books here: http://www.meishamerlin.com

You can also learn more about Lee Killough and contact her through her AuthorsDen website at: http://www.authorsden.com/leekillough

Part Three -- How the people live

In this section we're going to cover some of the basics of how a group survives, rather than individuals. A single person, living off the land, can get by with far less preparedness than a tribe, village, town or city could.

1. Agriculture

Definition: The science, art, or occupation concerned with cultivating land, raising crops, and feeding, breeding and raising livestock; farming.

Killough: Not all societies practice agriculture, of course. Not-hunter-gatherers. And maybe your people have the high-tech replicator capability of the 'Star Trek' civilization.

Most other societies use agriculture in some form, even nomads who practice animal husbandry. Sedentary cultures depend on growing crops for their food.

After habitat determines the timing and duration of growing seasons, the plants which thrive in that environment, and the animals available for husbandry, you need to decide how your people exploit those seasons and which plants and animals they choose to raise.

What percentage of your population is involved in agriculture? The rhythm of the seasons shapes an agrarian society. It influences the timing of business and education, of festivals, perhaps even marriage dates and the timing of pregnancy

All that may appear irrelevant with your characters slugging it out in a space war light years from any planet, and yet... the vestiges of agrarian life can linger in urban populations... in seasonal rhythms, in proverbs and in figures of speech.

Zette: Agriculture in this case means all manner of farming and ranching. I live in a farming community, so I have some idea of what it takes to be successful in this ... ummm... field.

First, crop raising is at the entire whim of nature. It doesn't matter what equipment you have, what sort of fertilizer, and pesticides you use -- nature will rule the growing.

Late rains, floods, hail storms, freezes, drought... any one of these can ruin a crop for an entire year. Large-scale farms can be ruined by a bad year at the commodities exchange.

And this not only affects whether the farmer has enough crop to feed his family, let alone sell, but the price of such items on the commodity market, which in turn affects the prices of goods on the store shelves.

Depending on how good your transportation system is, a locally bad harvest can have a devastating impact on the area. In days when fields supplied only the local area, a couple bad years could wipe out an entire village.

Prolonged drought in an area doesn't just affect the people. Animals and crops that might be considered superfluous could be destroyed rather than waste water on them.

Heat waves can have a devastating affect on both crops and farm animals. Not only can heat waves kill fledgling crops, but there have been years when thousands of chickens and turkeys died in a day in this area.

Heat can also kill cattle in large numbers. So can an early snowstorm. They are more likely to survive a late storm, however, because the snow is apt to melt quickly in the spring, but remain in the fall.

Importation of a new animal, whether domesticated or not, can often lead to trouble as well. New animals might bring pests, parasites and diseases that the local animals have no immunity to.

This is more likely to happen in a less advanced civilization, but it's been known to happen in modern day, even with all the precautions that modern technology can make.

Crops are grown for two purposes -- to feed humans and to feed livestock. Large-scale farming (anything beyond subsistence of a single family or small village group) means that the crops must have a way to get to market.

In the 1700's grain was sometimes bought by cartels, which they then shipped to other places and sold it there. Year-old grain, bought in the southern areas, was sold in Poland, where roads were not as good and transport difficult.

In the US small towns grew up all along the railroad lines. These towns were basically placed at the distance the outer farmers could reach in one day to bring their grain in for shipment.

Now days farmers can transport their grain for far more distance, but the governmental system that grew up during the railroad days is still in evidence with the county seats and scattered towns, though many of them in my area have shrunk to no more than a dozen or so people.

Hybrids of crop types are not a modern day invention, either. Even the earliest farmers quickly saw the use for naturally occurring hybrids that offered more lobes per plant, and cultivated those.

The long, narrow strips of cultivated land so familiar in medieval times were a result of the type of plow and the harness animal used at the time.

Horses were not plow animals because a harness had not been invented that didn't choke a horse when it pulled something heavy, like a plow through dirt.

Instead, Oxen were the common animals, harnessed in teams. Oxen, however, could not make a narrow turn, so strips of cultivated land often had long strips of uncultivated land between them. These, in turn proved excellent ways to tell one person's strip of land from another.

Irrigation systems were also a very early indication of agriculture. In the Chaco Canyon area of New Mexico, the natives trapped water that cascaded down the cliff sides during the infrequent summer storms in dams, and then diverted it into gridworks.

Similar systems were in use throughout the world, and in some of the desert lands the upkeep of the water systems is as important a job now as it was in ancient times.

Be careful to make certain the crops you intend to raise grow in the type of climate you've created. Also be aware that not all crops were planted in the spring. Winter wheat was planted in the fall, and harvested earlier in the next year.

This allows for the growth of two crops in a normal season, but it is risky since a late frost, dry spring, or a number of other uncontrollable factors can ruin that crop.

QUESTION

Nonny -- I'm questionless. And heyla all!
Anne_Marble -- Hmmm, I guess I'm going to have to put a bigger farm in my prison of mages. : --
Robert -- Importing pests and animals is almost easier now with more distance transportation despite best efforts. Between planets it would get intense.
Anon_97 -- sorry i'm late
CiceroCat --
Nonny -- Heyla CC -- you and me both.
CiceroCat -- lol
Robert -- Hey Nonny, CC!
CiceroCat -- Hey Nonny
Anne_Marble -- Australia has some horrid examples of that. The starling was imported to North America. :-/
CiceroCat -- Did I miss much?
CiceroCat -- Hi Robert
@zette -- It's not as easy, Robert, because there are so many safeguards along the way, otherwise we'd have had pests that wipe out everything already. They do get in, but it's not a constant flow.
Kay -- The drought we're having now is a good example of a scarce resource being a problem in a modern society
Robert -- One of the things I think would be cool and try to do is pick odd things that are crops in other parts of the world and use them. Like millet.
@zette -- Agriculture, CC.
CiceroCat -- thnx, Zette
Anne_Marble -- Some places are still relatively free of pests because they're isolated. Like Iceland -- they have strict laws about importing livestock.
Robert -- Or make up a local grain to fit the needs of the story.
@zette -- It'll be in the transcript. (grin)
Julia Neal -- I understand the pests. fire ants and kudzu. ::shudder::
CiceroCat -- they could harvest wild edibles
Kay -- Also, a late freeze recently wiped out a lot of peaches, but didn't hurt apples as much
Robert -- Would it be out of bounds to talk about the blue bread of Ziriavan?
@zette -- Yes, the ones that can get here on their own are the worst, Julia.
@zette -- Good point, Kay.
Kay -- The blue bread of what?
Robert -- The place I mapped and haven't written yet.
Nonny -- Blue bread ... that sounds ... odd ...
Kay -- There's blue corn and blue corn chips
Robert -- To take the idea of agriculture and start messing around with things that are like corn to Europeans, a new grain to the fantasy wrold. I heard of Mexican blue corn tortillas.
Anne_Marble -- There's a new disease affecting the orange groves in Florida. The government is trying to intervene by destroying trees that have it, but a judge stopped them because he considered it illegal search and seizure.
Kay -- that was stupid
CiceroCat -- You can make flour out of other things too, like nuts can't you?
Nonny -- I've had blue corn chips, but I've never heard of blue bread before. :P
Anne_Marble -- Imagine a judge in the past trying something like that!
CiceroCat -- for bread?
Robert -- So it would be like that or it would have ground dried blueberries milled with it or something.
Kay -- (said the lawyer)
Julia Neal -- Blue tortillas are blue because they mix ash with the cornmeal or something like that
Nonny -- Dried blueberries might do it, Robert!
CiceroCat -- neat
Robert -- Yeah, I heard you could make acorn flour and Europeans used to do it in hard years.
Nonny -- Ever make blueberry biscuits/pancakes?
@zette -- You can make sweet breads like that, Robert.
Robert -- Yep, this does come into the idea of "blue bread of Ziriavan"
Kay -- they certainly turn the flour in blueberry muffins partly blue
Nonny -- Once you get the blueberries in, they're blue ... actually, more of a purplish color, depending on how ripe the berries are.
CiceroCat -- man, all this talk of food makes me hungry
Kay -- (passes chocolate chip cookies and milk around)
@zette -- But sugar in the blueberries is going to change the type of material you use. Sugar and yeast react differently together, I think.
Robert -- And sort of build the cuisine ground up from what they've got and them being creative with what they've got. Mmmm thanks, Kay!
@zette -- Okay, let's get off of food and go on to the next round!
Kay -- yes, the bread would need less sucrose because of the available fructose from the blueberries, and
Anne_Marble -- Anne takes a blue chocolate chip cookie from the plate --
Robert -- Right, if I experimented with "You can make this fantasy novel food at home for a more immersive experience" I should look at sweet bread recipes.
CiceroCat -- lol

CLASS

2.Domestic Animals and Pets

Definition: (Domesticate) To convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses. To tame (an animal), especially by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal or for food, usually compromising its ability to live in the wild.

Killough: The level of culture helps determine which animals become domesticated. Hunter-gatherers have none except for some pack-type carnivore whose alliance perhaps began with orphaned cubs brought home and raised by the group.

Nomads acquire herd animals, probably smaller ones like goats or sheep before domesticating cattle, camelids, reindeer, and yaks...

On our planet, animals carried packs and pulled sleds and carts before the idea of riding them occurred. Sedentary agrarian cultures keep all manner of animals, down to smaller meat animals like poultry and rabbits.

Pets might be made of almost any species imaginable. Just pick form the fauna you have given your planet. People on your planet make pets of everything from all our domesticated animals and even insects like crickets.

Zette: This one ties back to the previous listing for agriculture. Domesticated animals have one big problem... they need fed. And that means, in the case of something like cattle, taking grain that would otherwise be used for human consumption.

And there is a reason why the west had battles over farmers raising sheep instead of cattle. They not only competed for resources, the sheep farmers were apt to fence off what had otherwise been free-range land.

Environment also dictates whether or not a people will have herd animals. Jungle tribes do not. Even if there were some animal they could tame (say wild boars), it would be nearly impossible to keep track of them in the thick growth.

At best, the people may have some half tame pigs and perhaps a few goats or sheep in the villages, but large scale herding of any native animal is unlikely to happen.

Horses are still work animals in any ranch setting as well as in places like traditional Amish communities. However, the closer you come to the cities, the more they make the transition to pet.

Pets are another matter. A group of people living at subsistence level is not going to have pets just to have little furry friends. However, remember that cats and dogs started as workmates, not just companions.

Cats, though not in the same class as dogs for workers, were especially good at guarding the precious grain stores that might keep a village alive all winter. Dogs, of course, worked well as shepherds and guards.

Are there animals that can only be owned by certain types of people? This is often true in magic-based stories. Royalty often owned odd animals as a sign of their power.

And remember that creatures brought in from the wild and 'tamed' can often turn on the owner. Domestication is not a matter of picking up something wild and bringing it home. True domestication takes generations of breeding.

QUESTION

@zette -- A nice short one.
Nonny -- So where do telepathic bonded animals come in on this?
@zette -- I also meant to mention that snakes were sometimes used to guard grain as well.
Robert -- That's where that article about cat meows comes in - thousands of years of cats learning what noises will make the big primates do what they want.
Anne_Marble -- Yeah, and what about shapeshifters? ;- --
CiceroCat -- Didn't some people use wild cats (like cheetahs) for hunting? Not very popular, but I think I heard something like this? Or am I wrong?
Nonny -- Ooh, good one, Anne!
Nonny -- Yes, CC.
Nonny -- Um ... I think it was the Persians.
@zette -- Where ever you want them to, Nonny. I would assume that they'd be domesticated to some degree, otherwise the bond would be too difficult.
CiceroCat -- neat
Robert -- CC you were right about the cheetahs, I used to have a couple of books with articles on them.
CiceroCat -- my people like to have guard cats and hunting cats
@zette -- Yes, they did, CC.
Robert -- And that's an interesting twist on the narrow cheetah genotype - did they get too inbred in domestication and then revert feral again?
@zette -- It was popular in areas like India, too.
CiceroCat -- Persians? Hmmm, maybe that'll be a good place to start searching for info on hunting cats
Nonny -- In the Julienne stories (the 2 I wrote), she has a telepathic lion-like cat that bonded to her ... whether or not it'll stay in the novel is a whole different matter ...
CiceroCat -- neat, Robert
Anne_Marble -- Gorok's snowcat is quite well behaved, it might turn out to be a shapeshifter in diguise. When you realize you may have made your animal's behavior too unrealistic, decide it's a shapeshifter.
Robert -- And racing cats. Can you imagine a culture keeping racing cheetahs and breeding them for speed?
CiceroCat -- Cool Nonny!
Nonny -- Oh, I like that, Robert!
CiceroCat -- Ditto!
Nonny -- Anne, I've got more than enough shapeshifters in these books ...
CiceroCat -- After all, they have horse and greyhound races
Kay -- There was a recent National Geographic -- Jan maybe -- about dogs and wolves and the evolution from one to the other that might be helpful to some
Robert -- The telepathic lionlike bonding cat would be a shepherd's companion sheep guard in less sentient antecedents.
CiceroCat -- lol Anne
@zette -- Why did I know this conversation was going to turn to cats...
Julia Neal -- thanks, Kay! I'll check into that
CiceroCat -- or make it a race of sentient cats
Nonny -- LOL Zette
@zette -- That sounds good Kay!
Nonny -- CC -- That's my other series.
Kay -- Because you have so many, Zette. Are we ready to go on?
Anon_29 -- Did anyone already mention Robin Hobb's Apprentice series? They have "familiar" or witted hunting cats in that...the last volume anyway.
CiceroCat -- Cool, Non
CiceroCat -- lol cause you have three cat fans
Nonny -- I haven't read them, Anon.
Robert -- Cats as familiars is legend and makes sense in stories.
Anne_Marble -- When I was writing the first draft of my werewolf novel, I decided the detective's horse was a special horse, a gift from the gods. That excused the fact that it had more endurance and was smarter than most horses.
Robert -- Zette's not complaining. Zette's seven cats aren't complaining. -- ^..^
CiceroCat -- Maggie Furey had some interesting cats in her books
Nonny -- Mickey Reichert had a memorable cat character in one of her books ...
Anne_Marble -- P.S. Yes, I know that was cheating.
Nonny -- SPIRIT FOX, I think it was.
Anon_29 -- These are called "witted" because the human and the cat have intertwined lives
@zette -- Anon -- if you type your name up in the box by 'name' in the upper right side of the screen, you can have a real name like the rest of us. (grin)
CiceroCat -- btw, didn't someone mention before, about foxes in another chat, that raising animals (maybe even wild cats) might change their color?
Robert -- Zette has Ari's cats article already.
Nonny -- Anne -- Either that, or you had a Companion cross worlds.
Anon_29 -- Thanks....was wonderin'!
Kay -- OH, because you want animal articles for vision still?
Kay -- Hi Khadres!
Robert -- Yes. That happens in very few generations - goldfish and calicos even have the same odd variant prized patterns!
Anne_Marble -- Nonny -- Ooooh, good idea.
@zette -- You can breed for colors, CC. And shape. That's why there are now wedge-headed Siamese as well as apple headed Siamese.
Robert -- Wouldn't it be a neat weird history of unicorns if they were domesticated and bred for intelligence and magic then left their slavery to become the traditional unicorn of innocence?
@zette -- And why you have the normal seal points, but also flame points, lynx points, etc.
Nonny -- I still like tortoiseshells ...
Julia Neal -- interesting idea, Robert!
Robert -- And shaggy Ari longhair colorpoints too. And tortie points.
@zette -- Toristeshells and calicos...
CiceroCat -- black cats are neat (I own/am owned by two)
Robert -- Black cats are incredibly cool.
CiceroCat -- Neat Robert
Robert -- Ari's dad was a black cat.
Julia Neal -- blue cats. I love the blues...
Nonny -- Ever see the tortoiseshell cats with tabby stripes? Gorgeous animals.
Robert -- Yep!
Anne_Marble -- Cornish rex cats look like aliens.
@zette -- Oh yeah. I had one. Caprica.
Julia Neal -- maybe they are, Anne...
CiceroCat -- never seen em, but aren't they like calicos? Tortoiseshells?
@zette -- Cornish and Devon Rex...
CiceroCat -- or more white/
Khadres -- I just had a plain ole Maine Coon
Robert -- I always thought the curly cats were cute.
Robert -- But I love Maine Coons.
@zette -- Torties have no white, calicos have a white base.
CiceroCat -- mixbreeds for me
CiceroCat -- ah, thnx
Khadres -- I do too, Robt.
Anne_Marble -- I had a hermit crab.
Robert -- They're all cool... but I love Ari most.
CiceroCat -- my sister did; have hermit crab races
CiceroCat -- I mean, make your characters have em we never did
@zette -- Okay... no more cats! On to the next section. (grin)
CiceroCat --
Robert -- There were a couple of books where in dungeons prisoners tamed rats or roaches.
Khadres -- All I know about hermit crabs is that they stink really bad after they dry up
CiceroCat -- roaches!!!!
Robert -- Yeah, the prisoners would race em
CiceroCat -- ew
CiceroCat -- and eat em afterwards?
Khadres -- ACK
Robert -- nah, they were just very very bored.
Anne_Marble -- Winner takes all
CiceroCat -- crunch crunch
Khadres -- ptooey
@zette -- CLASS
Khadres -- hahahaha
Khadres -- ....sitting down and folding hands
Khadres -- ahem

CLASS

3. Machines (Technology)

Definition: (Technology) The sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization.

Killough: This category covers the level of technology your people posses. Do they regard fire making as a miracle... or do computers run the world?

What are their tools? What are their sciences? Do they incline toward hardware, or toward biological engineering?

Zette: Always remember that tools do not appear out of nowhere, and that tools of different levels of sophistication can be in use to accomplish the same ends. Hammers are used as well as nail guns. For that matter, rocks are used as well as hammers.

The environment will shape level of technology, as well as the type of tools needed. A society that builds out of mud brick and adobe is less likely to create a hammer (as we know and use it) then one where building are made of the pine trees around them.

Two books I recommend is Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel -- Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages by Frances and Joseph Gies (ISBN 0-06-092581-7) and Engineering in the Ancient World by J.G. Landels (ISBN 0-520-03429-5)

Both of these will give you excellent views of pre-industrialized machinery and how man adapted inventions to his needs. As Landels says: "... applied science and technology are permanently concerned with catching up with what the society in question sees and recognizes as its immediate requirements."

For an even earlier look at technology, try Making Silent Stones Speak -- Human Evolution and the Dawn of Technology by Kathy D. Schick and Nicholas Toth. (ISBN 0-671-87538-8)

In this book the writers not only examine Stone Age tools and how they were made, but set out using them by butchering carcasses and treating hides. Making stone tools is an arduous but not terribly hard job

However, stone capable of being shaped by flaking also loses the cutting edge very quickly. For that reason the shaped pieces are often abandoned at kill sites and remade again at campsites, which might be closer to the beds of rock that they used.

For current technology and how it's used, try any thing from magazines like Popular Science to Scientific American. SA can even give you an idea of how technology of today may lead to the inventions of tomorrow.

Civilizations are based on the inventions they make and the extrapolations that come from those inventions. Humans invent things, and that is the basis of our societies. If you are building an alien culture, what differences could you make and still have a civilization?

Someone may have invented the lever to lift rocks out of the way for a building, while another looked at that lever and realized with a few modifications, it could be used to lift water from the river.

In that way inventions grow from other inventions. We did not suddenly just step into the age of computers and the Internet without any prior building. In this case the ability to communicate via computer came from two main inventions -- computer and phone.

Now, other inventions (cable for instance, another form of communications) is adapting to the new needs and generating new possibilities.

Remember, however, that invention will also lead to counter-invention (especially in the case of weapons or spying ability), as well as distrust. But, aside from the fall of civilization, there is no going back.

QUESTION

Kay -- just one?
@zette -- LOL. I see I missed the s on those.
Robert -- Is there no going back, or is going back a matter of also goign forward into more elegant green technologies?
CiceroCat -- more of a comment: for stone age/cavemen tools, I suggest reading Jean Auel's books.... I don't know exactly how accurate it is, but it's pretty informative and a great read
CiceroCat -- lol Kay
Robert -- I loved those. I pick up other things on stone age man but I still turn to those for relevant details. Boy does Auel research.
Julia Neal -- Auel does extensive research, I believe. From what I've read elsewhere, it seems accurate
Khadres -- I never really thought of technology causing mistrust, but it makes sense
CiceroCat -- k -- I heard she used creative license on some of the things, like Ayla and such, but ....
Robert -- I cross check her with herbals and serious sources and she's usually spot on
@zette -- The problem is for people like me, who reads a lot of Anthropology books for fun, I have trouble reading her stuff without wincing. She does well on some stuff... but like anyone working on fiction, it's bound to be adapted.
Anne_Marble -- quick one... How recently were nails invented? I remember the pilgrims used pegs instead of nails. Was that because they were low on nails, or were they not produced yet? How did they build with wood before then?
Khadres -- And if anyone ever gets to the fen country of East Anglia, be sure and visit the stone age flint mines that you can still go down into...
@zette -- Nails take industrialization, Anne, to make in quantity.
Robert -- Low on metal you want pegwork for cheap and durable.
Robert -- And sometimes it lasts better too.
CiceroCat -- notches in uhm wood?
Anne_Marble -- The newest genetics info about prehistoric peoples doesn't match what's in the Auel books.
CiceroCat -- like those strange building toys
Khadres -- And nails before mass production were hand made....very time and labor intensive
CiceroCat -- Btw, another rec, if you get PBS, the Frontier House is a good informative, reality show
Anne_Marble -- OK, I'll have 'em use pegs and Lincoln Logs.
Robert -- Ideas are technology too. When I was finally writing the Piarra books I realized where their writing started. Psychic signatures saying "this is my spear and this is who I am"
CiceroCat -- it was only on for 3 eps, don't now if they have repeats still or not
@zette -- Right, Khadres. So they were not extensively used until recently. And in the old days nails were pulled and straightened and used again in new buildings.
Robert -- and that turned into written labels on the charged pebbles and writing and psychic technologies to automatically enhance any tool since those worked.
Khadres -- Yep
Khadres -- Quite valuable things
@zette -- And they had to be imported besides.
CiceroCat -- btw, am I wrong? But was the boomerang originally a weapon?
Robert -- Medieval nails were made by pointing and sharpening hand drawn wire.
Robert -- The boomerang is a weapon and hunt weapon.
Khadres -- Yes, was a weapon, CC
CiceroCat -- ah ok; thnx for confirmation, wasn't sure :-D
Anne_Marble -- Very hand one too.
Khadres -- Very efficient too, if I recall
@zette -- Until transportation and industrialization grew to modern levels, people used local material and pegs were more common than nails.
Robert -- To me this connects a lot with Holly's comments on magic systems that they are technologies and will move out into society like any technology.
Kay -- I think that makes sense, Robert.
@zette -- Boomerang was an Australian Aborigine weapon, wasn't it?
CiceroCat -- I know, that was a major inspiration for my magic system, that article my people are dependent on magic... they use it to manipulate living things, besides improve others
Robert -- If magic makes something easier or better people will like it and use it even if they don't call it magic or have to get it blessed to get it - stronger church.
Khadres -- Yes, zette....aboriginal
CiceroCat -- neat I want to go out and buy a boomerang now :-D
Kay -- Pegs are also better woodworking technique. No rust.
Robert -- But that would make science like ideas collect in the magical groups - church or guild or whatever.
CiceroCat -- got to watch out for termites tho lol
@zette -- And don't pegs tend to mold into the wood better? Form a better bond?
Robert -- Yeah, that's just the thing with industry. When it's cheaper to buy a replacement than make one in terms of hours of work, people don't build to last.
@zette -- If you have termites that bad, nails aren't going to stop them.
CiceroCat -- lol
Anne_Marble -- I like the way magic is treated in the Sean Russell books. The mages are very different from most people and truly aloof and arrogant. The society is growing into magic versus scientists.
@zette -- You'll be left with a pile of metal. (grin)
Kay -- Yes, exactly, Zette, or so says my woodworker father in law.
Julia2 -- I think they do, Zette -- pegs expand later and hold on
CiceroCat -- btw, did they back then have anything to protect wood? Like how use varnish and stuff?
@zette -- Depends on how far 'back then' you are looking at.
CiceroCat -- Neat, Anne
Kay -- oil rubbed in, hardened. linseed after the Renaissance
Robert -- That's one way to do it Anne. The other is that magic subsumes the scientists, calls it magic and keeps them on as artificers or alchemists or whatever it's called and it's science.
CiceroCat -- lol sorry--uhm, Medieval time?
Kay -- linseed hardens. Same stuff used in oilpainting
CiceroCat -- linseed? Neat
Robert -- There is a lot of good Stone Age detail in the Brother Moon series, forget the author but it's like Auel for detail on Alaskan cultures.
Robert -- and arctic area cultures.
@zette -- Yes, they had some natural varnishes back then. There ought to be some info on line about medieval woodworking, I would think.
CiceroCat -- Neat, Robert I'll check it out..... cool, Zette
Anne_Marble -- There was a blending, some of the mages wrote down scientific discovery and were now considered scientists. Because now that mages were gone, society was uncomfortable with admitting that magic existed.
@zette -- But I seem to remember stuff about musical instruments made of wood, and how they were treated.
Robert -- In it the shamans had a few tech like tricks they kept proprietary for special effects to demonstrate magical power.
Kay -- cant speak to medieval, though, I once shoed up with renaissance dress at a medieval sca faire, and was OUT of PLACE, though some were very nice about it as it was my first time
Kay -- showed
Anne_Marble -- That sort of reflects the way alchemists and others were treated in our society. There was a grey area between magic and science. Sometimes they were one and the same.
Robert -- It shouldn't have been, Renaissance is within period.
@zette -- Okay, one last section!
CiceroCat -- I'd love to go to a period faire
CiceroCat -- neat
Anne_Marble -- In my story, I think Wulf might be trying to change the way magic is used in his society. That's why he's a heretic -- he wants common people to be allowed to use. it. I hope he doesn't screw up society.
CiceroCat --

CLASS

4. Transport/travel

Definition: (Transport ) to carry, move or convey form one place to another. (Travel) To go from one place to another, as by car, train, plane or ship; take a trip.

Killough: What means of transportation do your people use? Walking... riding animals... riding carts... motorized vehicles... flying vehicles... aquatic vehicles?

Is it private or public transportation? ... a society where my energy crunch has made most private cars prohibitively expensive to buy and keep up. People ride bicycles and buses around town...

If your people are a spacing race, how afar have they gone? Just in-system, or interstellar? What kind of drive do their ships use? What do their ships look like physically inside and outside?

Other questions to consider regarding travel and transportation: for what reasons do your people travel? Visiting... adventure... religious pilgrimage... commerce... conquest?

Are there any restrictions on travel? Energy rationing? Weather... pirates... identity papers... geographical barriers?

Zette: Don't forget to take into account the type of topography needed for your transportation to work. The sailing ships do not just sail out across the seas. Seasons, winds, deep-sea currents and tides all had a part to play.

Crossing areas of Europe as late as the seventeenth century meant changing modes of transportation several times if one was transporting any goods. Some roads were not passable by carriage, and people were often forced to change to donkeys.

The Alpine passes presented a different sort of problem. The weather was, of course, changeable. However, travel by sleds through this area was actually better than by horse, though very few liked it.

The Alpine villagers carried goods from one town to the next, where the next group of villagers would take them up and go on to the next settlement, thus ferrying people and goods through the passes.

One of the reasons William the Conqueror was able to reach England in 1066 is because he was blessed with a very late favorable wind late in the season. In fact, King Harold believed himself safe because the weather had already changed against William.

Sailing in those days was not an exact science. Most often, as in the case of crossing the English Channel, one started high and aimed downward to take into account the winds and the current.

Until almost modern times, sailing was nearly always done within site of land, with stops every night. Towns grew up along the Mediterranean to cater to this nightly trade, offering passengers and crew eating and sleeping establishments.

While the ancient South American empires did not have wheeled vehicles, they were not unaware of the wheel, which appears quite often on children's pull toys. What special types of transportation might a magical world have? What kind of resource problems would they face?

What about one where ships travel at light speeds from star to star, but are limited within gravity wells? How about a world that never had the vast natural resources that have allowed Earth to expand into the modern age of cars, jets, etc.

QUESTION

@zette -- Obviously I hadn't sorted that last section out properly yet!
Robert -- This is such a rich area for fooling around with!
Kay -- If they Had wheels, why in the world not use them?
Julia Neal -- too mountainous/thickly forested in South America?
Robert -- Lack of flat roads might have had something to do with it.
Kay -- I realize that there were a lot of steep hills, but for heavy loads in towns even?
CiceroCat -- I have a slightly ot q... weren't sleds and wagons and stuff uncomfortable to ride in cause they didn't have, uhm, shocks? When did they invent those?
Julia Neal -- cushion your sled with thick pillows!
@zette -- They just never did, Kay. No one knows why.
CiceroCat -- ooooh, see a story in that
Kay -- thanx Zette!
Khadres -- Was fairly recent that they began to use springs, CC
CiceroCat -- springs, ah.
Anne_Marble -- BTW history would have been different if they hadn't been equatorial. They couldn't use the stars for navigation.
@zette -- Yeah, they were very uncomfortable -- but were still better than riding in some cases.
Anne_Marble -- Or something like that
Khadres -- At first springs were just nothing more than leather sling work
CiceroCat -- ah
Kay -- D. Weber mentions lack of shocks in one of his Bahzell Bahnakson books.
Khadres -- Then someone invented metal leaf springs, etc.
Robert -- Speaking of cool ancient transportation for nobles and high priests, Popes still ride in litters carried by a bunch of people matching height.
Khadres -- Had to have been hell on bones riding in the old times
CiceroCat -- Didn't Robert mention taming Unicorns before? Maybe they could be used as standard transport in a world where a lot live maybe they can teleport
Kay -- riding easier due to lack of shocks in vehicles
CiceroCat -- forgot about litters
Kay -- Anything except trot
@zette -- Except that he usually rides in a jeep with high, bullet proof glass around him these days.
CiceroCat -- neat
Robert -- And elephants as transportation and labor. I love the thing with elephants.
Kay -- good point Zette!
Khadres -- Trouble with elephants...at least with riding astride them....you pretty quickly ruin your hips and back
Kay -- Down Rajah! Up Rajah!
Anne_Marble -- Re unicorns -- You can hang your lunch bag on the horn.
Julia Neal -- lol @ Anne
@zette -- Litters were used quite often, in fact. A lot of people traveled that way across alpine passes, and such. Still not comfortable, by the way. Not a whole lot better than wagons, and far slower.
Anne_Marble -- And ask Hannibal about some of the problems with elephants...
CiceroCat --
Khadres -- The ancient Japanese used litters or palanquins a lot
CiceroCat -- palanquin?
Robert -- Elephants beat horses for tiger hunts.
Khadres -- I think that's what they called the little covered box people rode in atop elephants or litter-style?
Kay -- palanquin = ornate 2 person litter, closed top, I THINK
Robert -- Howdah
Khadres -- Yep
CiceroCat -- oh, neat
Robert -- Palanquin is when it's on poles and people carry it. Howdah is an elephant saddle with a little palanquin like box seating on top.
Khadres -- Closed top allowed the upper classes to be private so the peons wouldn't bother them as they travelled
CiceroCat -- how were other litters carried? I thought they were all buy people?
CiceroCat -- by=buy
Julia Neal -- James Gurney used the elephant howdah idea in Dinotopia
Robert -- And it was a hot climate. That's shade even if it's open and has an umbrella so the peons can see them.
Kay -- some 2 carriers by people, some 4 carriers
CiceroCat -- ah
CiceroCat -- Romans used them, didn't they? The rich ones?
Kay -- depending sometimes on arrangement of carrying poles, and sometimes on weight of rider
Robert -- Rickshaws are a fairly elegant arrangement off litters and palanquins that lets one trained runner have a cab business with a specialized wheelbarrow.
Julia Neal -- did they ever have litters slung between two horses?
@zette -- Palanquin -- an enclosed litter suspended from poles and borne on the shoulders of several men, formerly in use in East Asia.
Robert -- They'd have to be well-trained horses.
CiceroCat -- neat
Kay -- makes good sense, Julia, but never heard of it
CiceroCat -- thnx
Julia Neal -- I'd just wondered about that. Horses can be trained, so... ::tucks the idea away::
Anne_Marble -- There were rickshaws in the "Max Headroom" show. So even very high tech societies can have them.
CiceroCat -- what are those carts that a human pulls, looks almost like a chariot?
Robert -- As a kid rickshaws were described almost like slavery in some sources and then I find out they're usually owned by the runner like a cab business.
Khadres -- And of course there were chariots for the romans
Khadres -- Rickshaws
CiceroCat -- ah
Robert -- With a colony world why wouldn't they have rickshaw races?
Kay -- possibly not more comfortable than wheels Julia, if not, why bother after wheels?
Robert -- With the passenger weighing in too like a jockey.
@zette -- Litter -- a vehicle carried by people or animals, consisting of a bed or couch, often covered and curtained, suspened between shafts.
CiceroCat -- so they are carried by animals too
Julia Neal -- ok. thanks, Zette!
Khadres -- Seemed to me that rickshaws were more comfortable due to the larger, lighter wheel size
@zette -- Max Headroom was 'fall of civilization' show, though. They were obviously in decline.
Robert -- Lower the gravity and hang gliders can become reasonable transportation for messengers across distances.
CiceroCat -- ah air transport
Khadres -- lol
Kay -- rode in a glider plane once. neat & weird
Kay -- silence in the air
CiceroCat -- I'd lose my lunch if I had to
Robert -- More emphasis on balloons and dirigibles would work for some worlds. Quiet and comfortable as long as it's not flammable hydrogen.
@zette -- Oh, that sounds neat, Kay!
Anne_Marble -- Flying eagles...
CiceroCat -- giant flying dragons like Pern, except only used for transport?
Robert -- Oooh yeah, Kay. Gliders are neat.
Kay -- Xmas present from adventure loving husband
@zette -- Ah Sedan Chair -- enclosed vehicle for one person, borne on poles by two bearers.
CiceroCat -- I had a winged cavalry once in a novel idea lol
Robert -- Air Cav has hooves. G --
CiceroCat -- cool
CiceroCat -- lol
Julia Neal -- Pegasus, griffon... could see major fights between those two
Khadres -- I believe the litter bearers of India were once trained especially to have a gliding gait to improve comfort
CiceroCat -- dragon too
Kay -- Holly's use of Dirigibles in Diplomacy of Wolves as technology excellent use of transport tech advancements w/ magic
@zette -- That would make sense, Khadres!
Julia Neal -- .
CiceroCat -- air traffic control, the griffin is in my flying lane
CiceroCat -- again
Julia2 -- hate being bumped out... ::sigh::
@zette -- LOL!
CiceroCat -- neat Kay
Kay -- guy w/ exp in air traffic control hangs out over at Baen's Bar. WJRogers knows him.
Robert -- rofl CC
CiceroCat -- lol
Robert -- That's another thing. Air traffic control is a high stress occupation.
Robert -- Space traffic control would be that and tougher.
Khadres -- Is it any wonder/???
Robert -- I used that in my SF series already.
CiceroCat -- I can see my mages trying to manipulate some animals to make into flying transport... maybe pegasi
Anne_Marble -- That's why I don't see flying cars coming any time soon. Most people can barely manage driving on flat roads. Can you imagine them learning to fly?!
Robert -- And crashing on your house.
Kay -- (shudder!)
Julia2 -- Anne: eeeeek!
CiceroCat -- isn't there something like hang gliding but with a parachute thingy?
CiceroCat -- LOL Anne
Robert -- Parasailing
CiceroCat -- lotsa crash and burn landings
CiceroCat -- parasailing, thnx
@zette -- Well, people, only three more classes!
Robert -- Here's a big question... what hasn't been tried but might work? What's a bit like the wheel to Mayans?
CiceroCat -- or what are those lizards, flying lizards? They an make giant gliding lizards to go on
Kay -- hard to believe. It's been a GREAT class so far Zette!!!! Thanks!!!!
Anne_Marble -- Yaaaay zette!
Julia2 -- must read transcripts I missed. This has been wonderful!
CiceroCat -- yup wonderful class, wish I hadn't missed the first q
Kay -- help with transcript or got it Zette?
Robert -- It's been fantastic, Zette! Thank you!
Robert -- I already had catswool weaving but I didn't have blue bread...
Kay -- poor cats
Robert -- They're Persians, they love being daily brushed and spun from.
Khadres -- Great classes, zette
CiceroCat -- btw, a neat idea is that maybe the rich for a party have colorful breads
Khadres -- Thanks...altho I've only attended this one, I've followed the transcripts closely
Kay -- oh. okay
CiceroCat -- find ways to add something into it... make flour
Robert -- Oh yeah! Like saffron bread with other colored herbs.
CiceroCat -- yeah I can see that
CiceroCat -- what would make red?
Anne_Marble -- Blue Pepsi is coming out soon...
@zette -- I am considering (but only considering) a couple classes afterwards where we take all of these things and see how we could fit them together for different types of societies. Say one ancient, one magical, one SF, one alien... stuff like that for a few weeks. But it may have to wait.
Robert -- Berrybread
CiceroCat -- yurch, Anne
CiceroCat -- That'd be wonderful, Zette
@zette -- I think I'm going to go make some nice sweet bread now...
Anne_Marble -- That would be cool, zette
Kay -- surely you Jest, Anne? That would be GREAT Zette!
Robert -- That would be fun, Zette (and so would blue Pepsi, Anne)
CiceroCat -- berry, yeah... straw or rasp
CiceroCat -- how about green?
Julia2 -- cayenne pepper or something like that for red?
Robert -- I had spinach bread and it was green.
CiceroCat -- cayenne, for spicy bread!
Kay -- Thanks again, Zette, ttyl!
Anne_Marble -- It's coming out soon. Honest. :- -- (On the coat tails of Vanilla Coke)
Julia2 -- chiles! zucchini
CiceroCat -- oooh, spinach yurch
CiceroCat -- but it'd work
CiceroCat -- zucchini would too
Anne_Marble -- Dang, didn't think to ask about Medieval "junk food."
CiceroCat -- Vanilla Coke is not something I'm gonna try lol, although I love the smell of Vanilla
CiceroCat -- lol, Anne
Robert -- rofl - you're right. But I think trail mix qualifies actually. Dried berries, nuts, some grains, bits of jerky.
Julia2 -- it tastes like a coke float, minus freezy ice cream
Khadres -- I suddenly thought of home made bread pudding with caramel butter sauce.....slaver, drool
@zette -- Whatever you could happen to pick up, Anne. Pottage, or porridge, cooked all day every day. You just sort of grabbed from it.
Robert -- Droool Khadres!
CiceroCat -- I used to like Floats I might try it after all
Robert -- Can I go eat at Khadres's house?
Anne_Marble -- I'm thinking that if the mages make their quota at the prison, they get rewarded with different things. Maybe some gourmet food one month or maybe one month they would get to put on a play...
Julia2 -- (we just tried it here. ::stares at cup in her hand:
@zette -- Oh, orange soda and vanilla ice cream floats...
Khadres -- I used to shudder when Dickens would mention "slicing" a bit of cold porridge for something to eat....YICK
CiceroCat -- if they had some kinda syrup or surgery something, dip uhm violets into it
CiceroCat -- slicing, Khadres, lol it was in a chunk?
Robert -- Porridge will get solid if you let it get cold. Makes sense to me.
CiceroCat -- lol Julia
Robert -- It would get almost jellolike
Khadres -- Yeah, have you ever seen cream of wheat when it kinda gels down into a quivery blob?
CiceroCat -- ah
Khadres -- That's what I thought of
Robert -- Cold grits
Khadres -- yah
CiceroCat -- btw, I've been meaning to ask: what is pectin? And did they have it back in Medieval times?
Khadres -- ....shuddering
Julia2 -- Khadres and Robert: eeeeew, yes. Why did you remind me?
CiceroCat -- jello reminded me of it, I wondered how they made jelly and jam
Khadres -- Pectin is a natural gelling medium
Robert -- One of those things you'd do with cold grits is slice and fry it.
Anne_Marble -- Khadres -- Yes. At my first job. Happened to me all the time. It seemed as soon as I made Cream of Wheat, somebody gave me something to do.
CiceroCat -- natural? cool, I thought it was something synthetic
Khadres -- ICK, Anne!
CiceroCat -- didn't they make some kinda jello meat molds?
@zette -- CC -- it's present in ripe fruits.
Robert -- Anyone know where it comes from? Is it from bone gelatin?
CiceroCat -- ah
Khadres -- No, it's from apples and things, I think CC
Robert -- Oh cool, so just using the fruit you'd get enough for canning.
CiceroCat -- ah ok neat
Julia2 -- ::racking her brain to recall how her mom made jams::
Anne_Marble -- One day, it took half an hour before I got back to the Cream of Wheat because my boss gave me several annoying tasks. By then, it looked like mortar.
Khadres -- Might look it up in an encyclopedia for sources
CiceroCat -- btw, I heard gelatin was made from the stuff that congealed off of meat and ground into a powder
Khadres -- Probably just boiled the fruit down with sugar
Robert -- Oh yes. And egg whites have mysterious applications in art that I'm familiar with.
Khadres -- Might've added some pectin
Khadres -- Egg YOLKS too
CiceroCat -- neat
Khadres -- Yolks made real egg tempura paints
Robert -- A lot of my medieval paint recipes involve common foods, esp. eggs and honey
Anne_Marble -- I took the Cream of Wheat mortar to the kitchen and was cleaning it out, and my coworker saw me there and started asking me work-related questions. Naturally I gave her terse answers. And sweetly, she said "You sound frustrated."
CiceroCat -- neat, Robert....
Anne_Marble -- She nearly ended up wearing a slice of Cream of Wheat. ;- --
Khadres -- I even learned how to make real tempura.....believe me, washing the yolk sac without breaking it was hard!
Anne_Marble -- Don't forget headcheese, I think the gelatin in that comes from the moo moo.
CiceroCat -- LOL Anne
Khadres -- heehee
CiceroCat -- oooooh headcheese isn't cheese is it?
Julia2 -- cool, Khadres!
Robert -- This is where artisans got into scientific trial and error. Kitchen accidents and cleaning off spilled eggs would make em think.
Khadres -- No, head cheese is gelatinized head innards
Khadres -- icky stuff
CiceroCat -- lol, maybe the starving artist got in a fight with his wife and --look at the mess he made in the kitchen and decided hmm, nice new color of paint
Khadres -- Gelatin comes from hooves and such
Anne_Marble -- My grandmother used to give me that stuff when I was young and didn't know what I was eating.
CiceroCat -- ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Khadres
Khadres -- LOL, CC
Robert -- Yep, but the paint's definitely usually toxic.
Julia2 -- lol @ CC
Anne_Marble -- Well we don't want to think about woman's involvement in the creation of cheese.
Robert -- Characters eat all kinds of things I don't.
Khadres -- Well, the yolk is stable enough....but the heavy metal colors they used way back were definitely toxic
CiceroCat -- I heard that too, Khadres
CiceroCat -- well, as long as they didn't eat their paintings afterward
Khadres -- True
CiceroCat -- keep them away from babies
Robert -- I have a nice set of pigments for grinding that includes some nasty heavy metal colors I should wear a mask while working on.
CiceroCat -- oh that kinda toxic
Robert -- Yes. Artists who bred learned that.
Anne_Marble -- Might explain the behavior of some of those painters...
Khadres -- Their biggest problem was from their habit of "pointing": their brushes by sticking them into their mouths tho....lots of lead poisoning came from that
Julia2 -- mad painter? like mad hatter?
CiceroCat -- lol, maybe we should take this to a chat instead of the Conference room?
Robert -- It's right in my source too. "If you use this pigment have your least talented apprentice grind it. VERY toxic."
CiceroCat -- LOL Robert
@zette -- Okay, I think that's about it for the class today! I hope to be back next week, but the way things are going, I won't guarantee anything!
Khadres -- heehee, Robert
Robert -- That's a quote from a nice 12th century monk, Theophilus. I love Theophilus.
CiceroCat -- ok, thnx for a wonderful chat
Julia2 -- thank you!
Robert -- Oooh hope so too, Zette! Thanks again for a wonderful chat!
Robert -- I love this class. Always a thousand ideas.

Lazette Gifford
My Internal Editor died of fright and my Muse is suing for overtime wages.

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