First the word from Robert when I arrived:
Robert -- No, but I got a note on High Goth...
Nonny -- Heyla Yvonne, Khadres, Emry
Robert -- OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BarGnat -- What?????
Emryon -- hello
Robert -- This is your official acceptance of your story. Payment is 1 cent per word.
Khadres -- Hey, Nonny, Robt, BarG, Yvonne, zette and everyone else
Yvonne -- cool Robert
Robert -- That is the first time EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BarGnat -- WOW WOW Wow Robert
Khadres -- WOOHOO Robert!
Yvonne -- hi Khadres
Robert -- An editor is PAYING FOR MY STORY REAL MONEY
Emryon -- whoohoo, Robert!
Khadres -- YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYA
BarGnat -- I'm almost in tears!!!! Look at your daddy, Ari!!!!!!!!!
Khadres -- I can hear Ari purring from here!
Nonny -- WAAAAAHOOOOOO, ROBERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robert -- He's staring at me like I"m crazy
Nonny -- That's AWESOME!
Robert -- PURRRR PURRRRRRRRRRRRR PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Nonny -- :D
Nonny -- Congratulations!
Nonny -- Where'd you sell it to? 
BarGnat -- That should help make up for "the landlord from hell", Robert
@Zette -- Good work Robert! Where to?
Nonny -- And which story?
Robert -- Thank you! oh man this is incredible!!!!!!!!!! Pegasus Prose!
Khadres -- Online or print?
Nonny -- Awesome!
Khadres -- I wanna see I wanna see!
Robert -- Online paid online
@Zette -- That's great!
Nonny -- when will it be up?
Robert -- I'm - my jaw is somewhere on the floor there and I'm laughing like a maniac
Khadres -- ....breaking out the virtual champagne!
Nonny -- passes around sparkling cider --
Robert -- The magazine will be launching in July and as soon as he sends me the link he wants me to put up on my site and in my newsletter YEP!!!!!!!!!!!!P
Robert -- PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
BarGnat -- Thanks, Nonny... I usually don't indulge, but this is a real occasion!
@Zette -- Good work!
Robert -- All of my sites!
Nonny -- And post the linkie to the forum, too!
Khadres -- That's VERY cool
Robert -- I'll put the linkie in the forum and on the left side of my blog permanent while the story's up
BarGnat -- How soon in July?
@Zette -- Where did you find this one? I've not heard of it.
Robert -- The MAGAZINE goes up permanent on the left side of my blog with the story link right under it. That's the way to do that.
Nonny -- Zette, I think it's just debuting.
Julia Neal -- hallo the conference room!
Robert -- He announced it before publication to my horror mailring and I queried for guidelines.
Khadres -- Well, one thing about it.....this should definitely inspire us to get with the re-writes!
Robert -- So I'm in Issue One!!!!!!!!!!!
Robert -- YES!!!
Khadres -- Hi, Julia
Nonny -- It's a horror zine?
BarGnat -- Hi, Julia
@Zette -- Yes, but I understand this is a new publicaiton, I just wondered where he found info on it.
Robert -- Hi Julia!
Robert -- Editor Simon Owens posted the announcement to The Underside horror mailring.
Robert -- SFFH
Robert -- I don't know where else he posted it to.
Robert -- But he'll get a ton more good stories out of Forward Motion when this goes up!
Khadres -- True!
@Zette -- Ah! Just wondered. I see a lot of stuff through Estand, and hadn't heard of this one!
BarGnat -- Yes he will! There are enough good writers here to fill every issue!
Nonny -- Heh, yeah, Mary!
Robert -- I'll give you the link for Estand as soon as I get it, Zette. You maintain that, right?
Emryon -- I have never succeeded with short fiction
BarGnat -- I have never succeeded with ANY length fiction
@Zette -- Yes, I do.
Khadres -- I dunno, Emryon....you got a personal rejection from MZB herself!
Robert -- This is my FIRST TIME!!!! Whoohooooooo!!!
BarGnat -- But "never surrender, never give up"
@Zette -- Okay, time to get on with the stuff on editing. This time you get to bring up problems you have, and we'll discuss them. Who wants to go first?
Khadres -- I can....
Nonny -- Oh wow1
@Zette -- I've got a couple personal rejections from MZB. They are a thing of wonder...
Robert -- I had one nice one and one rotten one from MZB and it's not fair she's dead.
Nonny -- I did a search for the mag's name and found a page that has info on the mag.
Nonny -- http://jupiter.ksi.edu/~mirage/bu.html
Khadres -- One problem we have with rewriting our book is that we seem to keep starting from the beginning with each thing that comes up....is there a better, more efficient way to do it?
Nonny -- All the way towards the bottom.
@Zette -- Basically, one sometimes wonders if she really didn't want other writers out there, and tried to discourage new ones. (grin)
Robert -- Nah, she just sorta has a drill sergeant attitude about it. Had.
@Zette -- Okay Khadres. Post your problem! (Please hold posts until afterwards!)
@Zette -- (I can't type tonight!)
Robert -- She did
@Zette -- Oh, there it is, up there. Duh.
Khadres -- sorry! LOL
catherine/splodge -- sorry I'm late - walk took longer than expected g --
Yvonne -- hi splodge
@Zette -- LOL!
Khadres -- wb, splodge
BarGnat -- Khadres has a problem up for grabs already
Robert -- Holly had the "One Pass Rewrite Method" where you mark down ALL the things you want to change on a hard copy and go through writing in the new stuff in margins and extra pages and then key it in.
@Zette -- Do you mean that each problem means you have to start back at square one to rework everything?
Khadres -- Yeah, kinda
Khadres -- At least that's what happened in the past
Emryon -- it sure seems that way
Kay -- Khadres problem post was: One problem we have with rewriting our book is that we seem to keep starting from the beginning with each thing that comes up....is there a better, more efficient way to do it?
Nonny -- Holly's One Pass MS Revision works really well for me.
Khadres -- The problem became the fact that we were sick AND tired of seeing those first chapters
Robert -- Holly's suggestion I found useful was "make a note when you think of it and keep going as if you made the change."
@Zette -- I'd definitely do the 'read through and mark problems' before you try to fix any of them. It may be that you find later problems eliminate earlier ones. But there are no easy ways to fix the big ones. You just have to go through and do it.
Nonny -- It's made rewriting SANCTUARY a *lot* easier.
Khadres -- Ahhh....that mighthelp because half the time we find out that one fix necessitates half a dozen others too
catherine/splodge -- it can be enormously difficult to keep track of every change
@Zette -- Personally, I can't work with a One Pass Revision, but I can get a lot of material in a read like that.
@Zette -- That's why you do the notes -- I do yellow sticky notes with a short description, page number, etc.
@Zette -- And then if I find another problem that relates to it, I put it on the same paper.
Khadres -- Sticky notes! That could work!
Robert -- What helped me with rewriting Strigler's Succubus was to treat the rewrite like a stint of writing. I literally did not do anything else or think about anything else till I was done. I read through and immersed.
Robert -- Sticky notes are wonderful.
@Zette -- It helps a lot because you can view them, move them around, etc.
Khadres -- Yeahhhhh, that could be cool
BarGnat -- It also helps me if I number each sticky note
jebbo -- Rather than one-pass, you could try to identify the macro-level problems first -- the ones that require major structural changes and significant rewrites -- do those, then go back and do the more micro-level stuff
Robert -- And it's silly but they are square. When I finish what's on one I fold it into an origami crane.
Emryon -- like mind-modelling?
@Zette -- Personally, I wouldn't try to fix the problems when you first see them. I've done that only to find that I changed something I needed back later, and ended up reworking it again.
Khadres -- Why the numbers, BarG?
Khadres -- YEAH....a real pain
Emryon -- I hear that, Arg
Robert -- That gives me a sort of set of hatchmarks of "things done" that's very satisfying.
BarGnat -- I do a brief outline using the numbered notes where they are
Khadres -- Ahhhh
Nonny -- Ugh. I hate outlines. lol
Khadres -- An outline of the rewrite?
@Zette -- I use page numbers instead of numbers so I can find it easier in the story, but it works out well.
BarGnat -- And, when number 17 also applies to number 3, I just write "see 17" on note 3, and vice versa
catherine/splodge -- I'm afraid I'm the do a pass per problem person
Khadres -- Well, that technique has just about killed off this book a time or two, splodge
Robert -- I'm more the two pass - I'll do the major stuff and then the line editing though I'll fix any line edits I happen to notice.
BarGnat -- An outline of what the book will be after the rewriting is done
@Zette -- We all rewrite in different ways. The trick is just to get it done. (grin)
Nonny -- Robert -- I did them both at the same time. Line editing, however, is much easier.
Emryon -- true, Zette
Khadres -- Ahhh, gotcha
@Zette -- I do 'one line per chapter' outline after the book is done. Makes it much easier to write a synopsis.
Robert -- That and I usually do some of the line editing while writing if interrupted enough I have to read back to catch up.
catherine/splodge -- suzi - probably - but I can't keep track the other ways
Robert -- Ooh yeah. I still have to do that on mine.
Lucas -- If you're spacially inclined post-its (or their generic equivalents) or index cards can help to arrange your thoughts. I haven't found them terribly useful for initial plotting, which is one suggested use, but that doesn't mean they aren't good for other things. (Or even for that use, if that approach to plotting works for you.)
Emryon -- are there ways to plan better during the initial draft to minimize rewrite problems??
Khadres -- THAT too
Nonny -- If there are, Emry, I haven't figured them out yet.
Emryon -- don't cheer me up, Nonny *G*
BarGnat -- Actually, Khadres, I cheat -- I don't do a "fresh" outline... I copy off a workfile and each place I have references to problems I do a @@@See note # in red in that chapter
@Zette -- If you have a very strict outline, yeah. But most people are going to stray from an outline anyway. Rewrite is part of the problem.
Khadres -- And I take it y'all just make notes somewhere of things that need to be explained, added, deleted, etc as you read through it?
Nonny -- Yes, Khadres.
Nonny -- Holly says in her One Pass Revision article to use a notebook.
@Zette -- Yes. On yellow sticky notes. With page number. (grin)
Robert -- I usually do a Cast List and "Line per chapter" in the Pad file in RoughDraft attached to each chapter file.
Robert -- I use multicolor neon sticky notes.
Lucas -- Zette - The one line per chapter thing. Sometimes I write the line for the chapter immediately after finishing it. That way, I still remember what I intended to do with that chapter. Who knows what I might forget by the time I finish the book.
Emryon -- I think part of our problem might have been that we tried to do too many things in one book.
Nonny -- I tried sticky notes and couldn't work with them.
BarGnat -- I use whatever color sticky notes I happen to have on hand
Khadres -- Might help us in collaborating if our notes were two different colors?
Nonny -- Khadres, that would probably help a LOT
Robert -- Khadres - the neon notes come in blocks of five colors and it's good for flagging different types of things.
Khadres -- Well, we changed our focus so many times.....sighhhhhhh
Nonny -- Carol Stephenson had a good article on that in the May/June Vision.
Khadres -- Good point, Robt
@Zette -- I usually wait until I have the first draft one, but then I work quickly (usually). Then I do the line per chapter if I'm going to need a synopsis.
Kay -- ms word allows tracking comments by reviewer. IN writing legal docs with multiple authors, I've found them helpful.
Nonny -- She used different types of sticky notes to mark the hero/heroine scenes, scenes with the two separate, and scenes without the two. Sounded really interesting.
Nonny -- Kay, I think that would help.
@Zette -- Oh yeah, tracking comments is great! Beth Long and I use those for Vision.
Robert -- Yeah.
jebbo -- One other thing occurs to me; if you keep going back and reworking the early chapters because of problems you notice later in the work ask yourself why you noticed at that point.
Robert -- It would help with more than romance too.
@Zette -- odd noises outside... brb!
Khadres -- Sounds cool, Nonny....I'll have to find that article
jebbo -- It may be you don't need to rework the earlier stuff, just fix the problem where you noticed it
Robert -- Her odd noises are probably hungry cats.
BarGnat -- need caffeine. brb
Khadres -- That's true too, jebbo
Emryon -- well, one thing that has to be realized is that we've been working on this for several years and we've both changed as people in the intervening years
@Zette -- back. Just kids.
Khadres -- A whole other problem
Robert -- Oh that hits me when I look at things I didn't finish a few years ago.
Khadres -- lol
Kay -- fiction or non-fiction Khadres?
Khadres -- Fiction....epic fantasy
Robert -- And here I thought it was a horde of hungry cats who heard it was your house, Zette
Khadres -- I THINK it's epic
Emryon -- in proportion at least, my friend *G*
Nonny -- If you think it's epic, it probably is.
Kay -- just making it fiction makes my experience only semi-relevant, which was why the q
Khadres -- What we have are two POV characters...each first person....weird as that sounds
@Zette -- Anon_88, if you type your name up in the right hand box where it says 'name' we can know who you are. (grin)
Emryon -- not that weird these days, Khadres, from what I hear
@Zette -- I've read a couple books like that. Andre Norton did it years ago.
Lucas -- Khadres - That's not so terribly strange.
Robert -- That's cool. Do you mark the sections where who's speaking changes?
Khadres -- We share the same space MOST of the time, but the male character and the female view things very differently because of their roles
Khadres -- Yes, Robt
Nonny -- Ack. It's difficult enough with one first person POV. I couldn't imagine writing two. :P
@Zette -- As long as you have them sufficiently different so that people know which is which, it shouldn't be a problem. Norton did it with alternating chapters. No problem keeping track that way.
Khadres -- cool
Khadres -- We've worried a lot about that
Emryon -- I am not worried about the dual viewpoint so much anymore
Robert -- I've seen that done nicely with just "Charactername" bold at top of section and it goes on till the next "Othercharactername" comes up.
Lucas -- Heinlein wrote at least one book with POV changes that swapped out with the chapters.
jebbo -- Robert: yes, me too
@Zette -- It's not a problem.
Khadres -- It is fun, tho.....my character will be worrying about entirely different stuff than Emyron's will
jebbo -- I think David Brin does that in Startide Rising . . .
@Zette -- I don't think he did first person, though, Lucas.
Nonny -- Khadres -- You and Emyron are cowriting this?
Khadres -- Yes
Emryon -- and I have SWORN that I'm not going to worry about the length any more...it will be as long as it needs to be.
Nonny -- Oh neat!
Khadres -- LOL
@Zette -- Ah! I didn't realize it was the two of you!
cherylp -- Oh, ho, Khadres, are you and Emyron collaborating says last word in hushed voice -- g --
BarGnat -- Eric Flint did it in the novella he wrote for Weber's Changer of Worlds
Khadres -- That's cause it was 125k words to start, we decided to cut it and it came out CUT at 200k
Lucas -- Zette - Are you sure? I'm thinking of "Number of The Beast". That had first person in it.
@Zette -- That's a good attitude Emryon!
Khadres -- Yeah, cherylp
Emryon -- I am trying to develop good attitudes, Zette
@Zette -- Might have... but that's very late stuff, and I only read it once.
Emryon -- I think I've been paralyzed by bad notions for too many years
Nonny -- Could it work out to be more than 1 book?
Khadres -- Emryon's the worrier of the duo....lol
BarGnat -- Not chapter changes entirely... the boldface character names at a change
Khadres -- Yes, it will, definitely
cherylp -- Good luck, Khadres and Emyron!
Emryon -- well, the overall story is at least two books
Khadres -- Thanks!
@Zette -- I should reinforce the one thing I think is very important for rewrites. Don't make them be work. Don't dread them. They're just another part of writing, and you can make them fun too.
Nonny -- Good luck!
Khadres -- That's the way I feel about it, zette
@Zette -- I haven't written with another person for nearly 30 years. I can't imagine doing it!
BarGnat -- what Nonny said. G --
Khadres -- But then I worked in tech writing long enough to know rewrites aren't that big a buggaboo
Robert -- That's neat, Emyron/Khadres. Epics get huge and that's a wonderful thing to me.
Nonny -- And I've got a question about that very thing, Zette.
@Zette -- Yes?
Kay -- Good luck, Khadres & Emyron!
Khadres -- Thanks, all!
Lucas -- Sure, make them fun... If, that is, you can figure out what it is you're supposed to be changing. Aack!
Emryon -- well, I think we'll have to do what movie directors do....if we think of something that would mean "reshooting" several thousand feet of film, it just has to go in the next movie, not this one *G*
Nonny -- On rewriting Sanctuary. I started out really excited about it, but now as it's starting to get difficult, it's where it's almost kind of ... like I dread it. But that's not exactly accurate.
Nonny -- Maybe it's just me being lazy. -g-
Robert -- Emyron that helped me so much.
Khadres -- Oh, been there, done that, Nonny
@Zette -- Nothing set in stone, Lucas. You can change everything and change it back again, and change it again. Experiment. You'll get it done eventually.
@Zette -- Oh yeah, I know the feeling, Nonny. Part of it, for some writers, is the realization that once they get it done, they have to do something with it.
Robert -- Nonny, tell yourself that's a mood swing that's not even necessarily going to change the quality of what you're doing.
cherylp -- No, Nonny, I have the same problem. It's ....less exciting .....than when you first wrote it.
catherine/splodge -- It gets easier, Nonny. stares at next 120k novel that has to be rewritten next week --
@Zette -- So the closer they get to the end, the more they dread it.
Nonny -- Part of the problem might be that I'm writing Mercenary, the second book in the trilogy, at the same time I'm trying to rewrite the first.
@Zette -- Take a day off. Write something short. Let your brain go through all the problems.
Khadres -- Ahhhhhh
Nonny -- I've taken ... let's see ... 4 days off.
Emryon -- well, I also had a problem for a while that we had planned it so completely that there were no surprises left in the writing for me.
Khadres -- So you're kinda tired of the first part and want to get on to the "fun" stuff?
@Zette -- That can have a big difference on it, Nonny -- working on the same series. Is there a reason you have to have it rewritten before the rest is done?
Nonny -- Finished book 1, book 2 is so fun to write, I don't want to go back and do the work. -g- I think it's chronic laziness.
Robert -- Or is it that you need to foreshadow something in the next vol. and are afraid you'll forget to put it in?
Lucas -- Very true, Zette. It's not done until the writer is happy with it, so there's no worry about having to get the re-write done perfectly the first (or second) time through.
@Zette -- I'm asking because I've found that redoing the material after several books are written is actually easier.
Khadres -- Hey, THAT'S a good idea!
Robert -- Yeah, the great idea that comes along in book three, sometimes you need to sow the seeds of it in book one.
Emryon -- crap, this thing is looking like it might lock up in me, so if I disappear....
Nonny -- I want Sanctuary out about the time I'm half through or finished with Merc, so I can rewrite it while waiting. Also, because it's easier to sell a tril, I've heard, if you've had book 2 written already.
@Zette -- Right, Lucas. I did nine rewrites on Silky. But in the end, I think I got it very close to right.
Nonny -- I have a couple things to foreshadow in book 1, yes.
Kay -- I certainly enjoyed *Silky* !!
Khadres -- Whoa, NINE????
Khadres -- Does it ALWAYS take that many?
@Zette -- Maybe you're trying to do it too soon, through, Nonny.
Nonny -- I realized I have two major inconsistencies towards the ending, and I have about 5 more scenes to write.
@Zette -- Nah. Usually only takes me two. But there was a lot of stuff with Silky that just needed reworked.
Khadres -- Oh, good
Nonny -- 1 inconsistency will be easy enough to repair. The other will complicate and change the ending entirely, I think.
Nonny -- Which is the other part of the reason I want to get the rewrite finished.
Nonny -- If it changes the ending too much, it could affect Mercenary.
Emryon -- I will admit, I still have moments when I sit down to write or just think about the book and I just despair at the sheer magnitude of the effort
Khadres -- Well, I'd take zette's advice and plow through the 2nd book before rewriting anything much
@Zette -- Okay, here's my second suggestion. Leave Mercenary and work on the first one without working on the second.
@Zette -- Get through one entire rewrite fixing the big problems, and then go on with the second book while you clean up the first in a final rewrite.
BarGnat -- Get rid of the temptation, zette?
@Zette -- I think you're distracting yourself with the new stuff, and that makes it harder to focus on the older material.
Nonny -- I'm about halfway through the rewrite, just where it's getting to be hard.
Nonny -- Yes, I think that's true, Zette. :P
BarGnat -- Keep talking everyone... we're verging on my problem here.
@Zette -- Focus on it. Make yourself rewrite X number of pages a day before you are allowed to work on anything fun. Believe me, that works...
Julia Neal -- I'm amazed that you can even focus on both at the same time. I'd get soooo confused as to what was in which book...
Khadres -- In our case, book two was written once already....it'll just be a case of filling in the new material we've come up with since....
Nonny -- Mercenary is so much better than Sanctuary, at least, in my opinion.
Lucas -- That could definitely be true. It can seem lots easier to work on new material than it does to fine tune your old stuff.
@Zette -- The next book always looks better than the previous one.
Nonny -- True, Zette!
Nonny -- Oh! That's a good idea!
Khadres -- Or it should
Khadres -- lol
catherine/splodge -- Sometimes it *is* better though - I have the same problem
Nonny -- Write x number of pages and *then* write some in the new book.
Nonny -- *err, rewrite
cherylp -- Ooops. I'm falling asleep at the keyboard. Think I'll sign off for awhile & take a short nap! g --
catherine/splodge -- Book number 2 is way better than number one
Nonny -- Bye Cheryl
@Zette -- Yup. Trust me, that one works. It's the reward approach.
catherine/splodge -- poor cheryl!
Khadres -- Rest well, cheryl
BarGnat -- bye, Cheryl
Kay -- good night Cheryl!! Sleep Well!
@Zette -- Bye Cheryl!
Julia Neal -- see ya, Cheryl
Lucas -- I read a book that profiled America as a nation, saying that Americans are always more willing to move on to the next new thing than they are to perfect what they first started. In writing, that might apply to most people from most places.
Robert -- See you, Cheryl!
Nonny -- The twists and turns Merc is taking ... I've NEVER had anything like this before.
Khadres -- Lucas, that may be very true
catherine/splodge -- Nonny - remmeber - I want to see sanctuary shortly!
BarGnat -- Me, too, Nonny!
catherine/splodge -- If you want motivation, I can give you moticvation VEEEEG --
@Zette -- And it is distracting you. So sit down and divide the rest of book 1 up into equal parts so that you will have it done by the end of June. Then make yourself do that many pages per day before you write on anything else.
Robert -- I guess I'm not very typical American. I had a tendency to eventually finish even thirty year projects...
Nonny -- Heh. OK. I'll go into and send them now.
Lucas -- The Japanese, on the other hand, it listed as being very willing to refine their previous efforts.
Emryon -- Khadres, would it be any help to us to have other people reading as we go, do you think?
Khadres -- I don't know....how about that, group?
Nonny -- I think the reward thing will work.
Nonny -- I don't think I could restrain myself from working on Merc. -g-
catherine/splodge -- p.s. - I have five chapters left to polish before I send you "Daughter..." which is what has been keeping me going
Khadres -- Is a first reader a help WHILE writing?
Nonny -- OK, Catherine!
@Zette -- Do a complete clean up first, Emryon. Why have people (especially other writers) pickingout things that you can fix yourself? Remember that everyone here is a writer, and the time they spend on your stuff is time they could be spending on their own.
Khadres -- Or do you run the risk of getting too derailed by comments along the way.
Robert -- Emyron/Khadres, a first reader helped a lot to get me to finish my first book. That was Dstar.
catherine/splodge -- It is when they pester you with emails about the next bit every five minutes
Emryon -- good point, Zette
Emryon -- and Khadres
Robert -- That's just what he did and it was in person, Catherine
Nonny -- It can help a lot.
catherine/splodge -- If its not too much in the way of crti, yes
catherine/splodge -- crit
Julia -- Khadres: sometimes, but I've had a reader from my high school class who got attached to a character I had to cut, and she got nasty.
Nonny -- I was in Critters last year and put chapters of two books I was working at the time through.
@Zette -- Getting other people's comments can help, but you should make the story as close to what you think is right as possible first.
Khadres -- We did have one friend read the first version and she got us so far off what we wanted that it was a disaster
Nonny -- One was an earlier version of Sanctuary and the other was my feline novel.
Emryon -- Critters did NOT work for me.
Nonny -- Due to their comments, I realized that the feline book was so badly flawed that it needed a compete over haul (and they were right!).
@Zette -- Yes, that can be a problem. Especially when you ask other writers to look at work. We are all going to have our own ideas of how the story should be told.
Robert -- Critters helped me but what I did in it was mostly a ton of crits, I only sent one story through - this one, the one that just sold.
Robert -- And it went through Forward Motion too.
Nonny -- Sanctuary remained, with one chapter cut out that dragged.
Nonny -- I made the mistake of trying to flog my dead horse novel back to life. :P
Robert -- And it went through one more rewrite before I sent it here.
Emryon -- okay, I will say this...you guys are really motivating me to get busy and WRITE!
Nonny -- Critters didn't work especially well for me, either, Emry.
Robert -- Nonny, sometimes they SLEEP. For a long, long time. Then wake up much later on.
Nonny -- I got some good crits, but couldn't keep up with them.
Nonny -- And there was no sense of community.
Emryon -- maybe if I can get through this book I can write a how-to called "How to trust yourself as a writer" *G*
Nonny -- It was too easy in Critters to get wrapped up in critting someone else's work and ignore your own. Which happened to me for awhile there.
Robert -- Emyron, do me an article on that?
@Zette -- There is a problem with critters right now... Andrew lists something like 3000 members, which means if something goes through there, it can lose first sale rights. Too many possible readers.
Emryon -- Robert, right now I'd have to write an article on how NOT to *G*
Robert -- Make it humorous then. Write comedy about the mistakes you know you made?
Nonny -- Exactly, Zette.
Nonny -- I wouldn't put anything other than the first few novel chapters when I was in last summer.
Nonny -- And I refused to put short stories through.
Nonny -- Which is part of the reason I left. My shorts needed a lot of work and I couldn't get crits there without endangering publicating rights.
@Zette -- He doesn't have that many active members. If he'd cut down the lists, it wouldn't be a problem.
Emryon -- I'll give it some thought, Robert...at the moment, I'm behind a deadline for turning out a curriculum for a basic HTML course.
@Zette -- Also take down stuff that's still listed from 2000.
Nonny -- That was the other thing that bothered me a lot, Zette.
BarGnat -- from 2000?!?!?!
Nonny -- Yes, Mary. From November 2000.
Julia -- that's a long time for stuff to be hanging around...
BarGnat -- eeek
Nonny -- When I was in Critters, I e-mailed him and asked him about it and got a non-committal answer.
Nonny -- .
@Zette -- Yeah, some of the stories up for crits have been there for a couple years. They need to come down. I really like Andrew Burt. I've met him a few times. But he needs to work on that.
BarGnat -- Are we about to question time again?
@Zette -- Still, critters can be a help. I doubt anyone really pays attention whether a story goes through there or not when it comes to publication. A good story will sell.
@Zette -- Yes, go with a question!
BarGnat -- Does someone else want to go ?
BarGnat -- Or is it my turn?
Robert -- I've got one too
Robert -- I can go after her or before doesn't matter
BarGnat -- Go ahead, then, Robert
BarGnat -- In honor of your sale. G --
Robert -- I ran into trouble with the Quest rewrite and then it cleared up very fast. I think one of my pressures WAS that I was trying to do it too soon and I was working on what I needed to do to it in background. Does that make sense?
Robert -- That some of waiting to rewrite is mulling it over? I felt like I was procrastinating but I was thinking about it constantly and jotting notes.
@Zette -- Well, I did say that working on them too soon is a problem back in the classes. (grin)
Anon_52 -- That counts as rewrite, Robert.
Khadres -- lol
Nonny2 -- Damn.
Khadres -- Leave the thing to "age" awhile?
BarGnat -- Thinking is good.... I think G --
Robert -- So that was working on it, not goofing off, and just a healthy perfectionism of wanting to get it RIGHT more than Fast.
Nonny2 -- Anon52 was me.
catherine/splodge -- no Robert, you're right
jebbo -- Ahh . . .ghosting; not seen that for a while 
BarGnat -- busy little gremlin, our Cato
Nonny2 -- Jebbo -- it died on me and I had to reload.
@Zette -- Yes. Step away from a story. Write something else. Get some distance from it before you try to rewrite because problems will be far clearer.
Robert -- The last crit didn't come till the last day of the Dare and the last crit made the most major change. I have a half chapter worth of bridge scenes to write now and all the new material to clean up.
Khadres -- Plenty to keep you busy, Robt.
Nonny2 -- Sounds like you and I almost have the same problem, Robert. -g-
Robert -- Oh yeah.
@Zette -- The problem I see with a lot of writers is that they're in a hurry. They want to get stuff done and out, and move on. But really, this isn't something we should rush.
Robert -- Now with that, is calling it just a goal to finish the rewrite by end of June okay? Or should I take more time and do it for the July-AUg dare since I'm also doing BN course?
Julia -- I
@Zette -- A couple more weeks, or months, or even a year with a novel, can make a lot of difference. And remember, once you send that piece to a market, you can never send it back. You've killed that market for the story. Take some time. Make it better.
Julia -- can't type, but other than that I'd go slower
Robert -- So I should hang loose and if it happens to get done in June great, if not use it for the July-Aug Dare project.
Khadres -- Well, with Emyron and I it's a case of me believing the journey IS the destination, whereas he's a strictly get there, destination man
Nonny2 -- My rewrite is just the preliminary one before it goes out for crit ... :P
Emryon -- Emryon and me, Khadres *G*
Khadres -- grrrrrrrrrr....swatting Emryon with a newspaper
Emryon -- HHAHAH
Emryon -- I'm also a grammar pendant
Emryon -- I admit it
Khadres -- lol
Khadres -- Thank god for that!
Robert -- I'd love to marry one of those.
Emryon -- pedant, dammit
catherine/splodge -- LOL, Emyron
Khadres -- I'd be more the type who would postpone finishing something because I hate the journey to end.
Emryon -- *smacking MYSELF with a newspaper*
Julia2 -- you're no longer a necklace? how sad. g --
catherine/splodge -- but not a typing pedant, clearly
Khadres -- lol
Kay -- so much for wearing him like a charm, Khadres!
@Zette -- At any rate, take your time, Robert. The dares and goals are only to get people moving on stuff, and they shouldn't be held to when they are not working for a piece. Make it right. Never mind the timeline.
Khadres -- snork.....not likely!
Emryon -- sorry, I've gotten us away from the question at hand
Robert -- I've got a plan. I think that's a reasonable plan - at its own pace and if it's still doing use it for July Dare
Khadres -- Isn't it true that a story takes as along as it....takes?
catherine/splodge -- Nonny - I just needed to check - you are over 18, aren't you?
Nonny2 -- I think Robert and I suffer from severe Writer's Impatience. -g-
BarGnat2 -- aarrgghhhh
BarGnat2 -- Cato attacked me
Julia2 -- BG: it got you, too, eh?
Robert -- Nonny I think it's a sign you will turn into one of the prolifics. G --
Kay -- wb Julia, Nonny, BG,
jebbo -- Lots of ghosting!
Khadres -- Is there ANY way to change the font size in here?
BarGnat2 -- Yes, indeed
catherine/splodge -- Cato still likes me neeeuuuurrgghh --
Khadres -- I'm old. I'm going blind!
Kay -- use your magnifier
Julia -- bigger computer monitor?
Khadres -- Kay, how UnKIND! LOL
Robert -- Windows has a built in magnifier
Khadres -- Yes, it is
Lucas -- There are loupe programs.
@Zette -- But it's a pain to use, too, Robert.
Robert -- It's in Accessories Accesibility
Khadres -- It does? WHERE?
Emryon -- win98?
Robert -- Start -- Programs -- Accessories -- Accessibility -- Magnifier - yep it's been there since Windows 3.1
Kay -- no, literally, use the built in magnifier in windows. Im using it now. Programs, Accessories, Accessibility, magnifier
Kay -- choice of 2x, 3x +
Khadres -- I have no accessibility doohickey!
Julia -- hmm... and I thought I was just really nearsighted or something...
BarGnat2 -- Me either, Khadres
Lucas -- It probably isn't installed by default.
Yvonne -- check the Control Panel for Accessibility
Kay -- size the chat window to about half the width of the screen and choose 2x, or 1/3 and use 3x
Robert -- It was in mine
Khadres -- sniffle
Kay -- it was in mine, too
jebbo -- It's there in mine, on XP
Khadres -- I only have 98
catherine/splodge -- oooooooh - I can see you now!
Lucas -- Mine didn't put it in by default, but I can see (in the Add & Remove Programs part of the control panel) that I can install it if I want to.
Kay -- go back and re-install and you'll have it in time for think tank on friday
Emryon -- Hey, it works!
Emryon -- Thanks, guys!
jebbo -- but this is the font size I *always* use
Kay -- I have 98 and it's in there, like the Prego
Robert -- Yep! It's convenient!
catherine/splodge -- cool, isn't it!
BarGnat2 -- I'll have Rex do it after class. Lucky Rex! G --
Kay -- YW
Lucas -- You should be able to access it Khadres, mine has it and this is only 98.
catherine/splodge -- Can I ask a question now?
@Zette -- I've got it up, but I don't really like it that well.
catherine/splodge -- Or is Mary up first
BarGnat2 -- Go ahead, Catherine
Kay -- takes some getting used to
@Zette -- Mary shoudl be up now. No, you first, Mary.
Emryon -- what doesn't?
@Zette -- I've been waiting all night for your question. (grin)
BarGnat2 -- I got kind of wordy... sorry
Lucas -- There are various freeware magnifiers available, if you don't like the defauly one. Now I'll be quiet and let someone ask a question.
BarGnat2 -- I'm getting ready to do something I've never done before. Sort of a double-the-length/rewrite. The book will be comprised of the second half of a previously completed book. I'll tell you how I plan to approach the job, and hope you can tell me what's wrong with the approach and how to fix it.
BarGnat2 -- I plan just to begin fleshing out the story, adding plot twists, etc., and only bring in back story (or infodump or whatever you want to call it) as the situation seems to require it. Once I've gotten it to the desired length, then I thought I'd go back and see how much, if any, back story might be needed and where. Will that work? Is there a better way? I've never written anything with a continuing character before.
Kay -- VG, BG
@Zette -- It sounds as though you've got a good plan there.
BarGnat2 -- So, that should work?
Robert -- BG, I have often done things with continuing characters and you need to do that.
@Zette -- Really, I think you've covered the important part -- get the entire story down before you go in and fill in backstory. Which is not infodumping, as I told you last night. (Grin)
BarGnat2 -- I wouldn't let myself look at it until I finished fleshing out the new book 1
Robert -- Put in only what's needed or it's too tempting to throw the whole first book in.
jebbo -- First, I'd read the story and figure out what loose-ends you already have that can be elaborated
BarGnat2 -- That's where the plot twists have to come in, jebbo
Emryon -- oops, Khadres' computer is having a breakdown
BarGnat2 -- ewwww
Robert -- oww
jebbo -- Quick, call the computer counselling service
Emryon -- her screen has reversed out
BarGnat2 -- Just finished doing that same thing with the first half that is now book 1
Kay -- Tony!
@Zette -- Somewhere back in the short story writing class I think I covered back story stuff. You might want to try and find it.
Emryon -- jebbo, I AM her computer counselling service *G*
Kay -- LOL, Tony, Emry
BarGnat2 -- Thx, zette... I'll look for it
BarGnat2 -- It was before my time here, I think, but should still be on the boards somewhere?
@Zette -- It's not a lot of info, but it might help.
@Zette -- Its on the same board where I post the transcripts for other stuff.
Robert -- It is under Class Transcripts. I read it after she held it and it helped me a lot!
@Zette -- Workshop and Class Transcripts.
BarGnat2 -- Well, I chose the approach I mentioned because I'm lazy and it seemed the easiest way... but if there's a better one, I'll try it
@Zette -- Look under my name. I have two sets of 'short story' classes. I think it's in both of them.
Khadres -- Whoa, this magnifier thingy is weird!
BarGnat2 -- Thanks. I will
BarGnat2 -- That takes care of my question.
Kay -- can i be after Catherine?
catherine/splodge -- I think you way might work, because you are only adding necessary backstory - no more than you need
@Zette -- Sure!
Kay -- er, may I, I mean
Kay -- thanks
@Zette -- Catherine? Question?
catherine/splodge -- Ok - this is kind of an undeveloped question
Khadres -- Test
catherine/splodge -- I am doing the novel split thing as well
Robert -- I see you
catherine/splodge -- and I have to decide what sort of scenes to start off the second novel with
catherine/splodge -- DO I need a scene that reminds the reader of what has happened?
Robert -- Middle of action always works great for an opener.
@Zette -- Oh, that one can be tricky. I've seen ones that start out months or years after the last one ended. You want to start off with excitment. You can always back fill story stuff.
catherine/splodge -- Secondly, the action after the split is a bunch of traveling. How much of the traveling should i leave in or out?
@Zette -- Leave out all the traveling that isn't interesting. Period.
jebbo -- All of it.
Robert -- How much of what happens in the traveling is necessary to the rest?
BarGnat2 -- Does anything exciting happen in the travels? If not, leave it ouot
BarGnat2 -- out
Lucas -- If the two stories are quite closely connected, the events of the second book might make the history obvious.
@Zette -- You can cover the travel with 'three months after leaving X they reached Y."
catherine/splodge -- Not all of it. But it is hard to work out what to show to start the novel
Khadres -- LOL....MOST of our story is travelling
Emryon -- I once read that a novel is not everything that happens, but everything IMPORTANT that happens
@Zette -- If nothing interesting happens int hat time, don't cover it. If there is something important and exciting that happens, drop in that part.
catherine/splodge -- Isabel has left Errond, rides off. End of book one
Lucas -- As long as it's *interesting* travelling, Khadres.
catherine/splodge -- Errond finds out what's happening, sends Ammarod after her
jebbo -- K -- it's probably not travelling, but events at different locations
Robert -- Isabel starts getting morning sickness and realizes she has Errond's child could be interesting and show the backstory.
Khadres -- The travelling is pretty much the story, Lucas
@Zette -- Let's put it this way... You have someone who in story 1 kills someone in their living room. The next story is about how the ghost visits them a year later in teh kitchen. ARe you really going to follow all the events leading up to that ghost visit?
Khadres -- Ah, gotcha
catherine/splodge -- No. But it is more tricky when starting the novel than when part way through
Lucas -- I kind of got that idea Khadres, that it was the meat of the story. In which case, making it interesting is doubly important.
Robert -- You mentioned that pregnancy, so its first recognition is a turning point that looks like "oops now what"
@Zette -- You want the story to be exciting, not to just follow events.
jebbo -- Think of it this way: what is the *latest* point you can start?
catherine/splodge -- Maybe starting with Errond getting Isabel's letter
Khadres -- Oh, hopefully it's interesting....none of the dull days are included
@Zette -- There are great travel stories. The point isn't to cut out all travel, it's to cut out anything that isn't interesting, and to be especially careful of this at the beginning of a book.
catherine/splodge -- blah - there is a lot I need to show, that's the trouble
jebbo -- you can always fill in things that happened along the way with flashbacks, memories and the like
BarGnat2 -- I kind of like the idea of her discovering the pregnancy to start with
Robert -- You said she didn't know. Her noticing would be a big deal. Errond getting her letter seems a little less exciting, important but not as thriling.
Khadres -- Right
BarGnat2 -- Could have a lot more tension than him getting the letter
BarGnat2 -- then switch to him and the letter and sending someone after her
catherine/splodge -- Right - the trouble is, I have her not registering what's happening to her for a fair while
@Zette -- Catherine, start with the first really exciting thing on the journey. Or maybe the second or third, and refer back to the previous ones as omens of the trouble that happens. That might work.
jebbo -- I'd start with the confrontation
Robert -- And the pregnancy revealed before he gets the letter and grieves could be "oh isn't it ironic!" in an Alanis Morrissete way.
catherine/splodge -- I wanted that to happen later
catherine/splodge -- But I could put it in then - have to change more of the novel, though
BarGnat2 -- Then make it happen later.
@Zette -- Keep your plot in mind. You don't have to make something happen earlier just to make more exciting. There are other ways to bring up the tension.
BarGnat2 -- It's YOUR book. G --
Robert -- Or you could overlap to a different scene during her leaving him. Alison suggested to me using the SAME incident to end book one and open book two but from different points of view.
jebbo -- the alternative is the discovery of pregnancy by one or other of the parites
jebbo -- parties
Kay -- oooo clever our Allison!
@Zette -- Remember what I always says about writers and criting... everyone here is going to see how they would write it.
catherine/splodge -- yep. My main worry with the pregnancy angle is that I've ;eft it too late
BarGnat2 -- It certainly worked for Tom Clancy in Executive Orders
Robert -- Very, like I said the last crit made the biggest change - it was total recognition "she's right"
catherine/splodge -- So maybe I could move it up and start the novel with that
catherine/splodge -- and rework the rest
Robert -- Pregnancy raises the stakes. There's this helpless baby risked every time anything happens to her after she knows.
catherine/splodge -- yep. You're right
jebbo -- How does the pregnancy / discovery of it / confrontation move the plot along? does it precipitate the action?
Robert -- Reader might assume you'll keep MC alive but reader knows darn well you could miscarry her on the next page.
@Zette -- Try a couple different openings until you find something that catches you, Catherine.
BarGnat2 -- Raises the stakes for the father, too
catherine/splodge -- At the moment I have her not realizing she's late till she's about six weeks out - but even I'm not that dumb,....
Khadres -- lol
BarGnat2 -- hehe
Robert -- Why is that dumb? I thought that was the first sign. Aren't women late sometimes?
Khadres -- If you've been preggers before, you know it within days of missing
Kay -- someone who was irregular and busy might not notice for that long
catherine/splodge -- The pregnancy is enormously important - because of whose baby it is
@Zette -- If she has a lot to think about, if she has reason to lose track of time... if she's on a long, arderous journey... she might lose track of time.
Kay -- especially if she was REALLY busy.
BarGnat2 -- Especially with the stress and space travel
catherine/splodge -- Yeah - I've failed to notice being late
Khadres -- If you're pregnant you'll know it...boobs hurt, you sleep round the clock......all about the time you miss
BarGnat2 -- But foreshadow her worrying about it if you leave the realization till later
@Zette -- Not always for everyone, Khadres.
catherine/splodge -- This is Isabel's first pregnancy
Khadres -- Sure was a tip-off for me...lol
catherine/splodge -- and she isn't enormously regular
Khadres -- That can be a problem
BarGnat2 -- The reader needs to be aware of the possibility/probability
catherine/splodge -- and I set it up that she doesn't pay a lot of attention
Kay -- but if you were really intense about some big stuff happening, you might dismiss discomforts and assume tiredness from over exertion
Kay -- or not being travel hardened
catherine/splodge -- I want the reader to know earlier than Isabel
Khadres -- True too
Khadres -- Give 'em the clues
Kay -- then you can have her castigate herself for being so tired so much
BarGnat2 -- As soon as she blames her morning sickness on the space travel?
catherine/splodge -- which is how I have it at the moment
Khadres -- LOL
Khadres -- That'll work
Khadres -- Readers aren't stupid
catherine/splodge -- I kind of like it this way, as long as its believable
Kay -- morning sickness on unfamiliar food
Lucas -- Just for really strangeness: I've seen articles in magazines (no, not the National Inquirer) about women who didn't know they were pregnant until they went into labor. There were photos of one woman, at six months or so, in her bathing suit. It would have been impossible to guess.
Khadres -- MOST aren't
@Zette -- Some people will guess. Some people won't. You can't make it perfect for everyone.
catherine/splodge -- Isabel thinks she's ill when she gets morning sickness
@Zette -- But the ones who do guess will have a little extra thrill.
BarGnat2 -- but does not go to the ship's doctor
Khadres -- Oh, true, Lucas, but those are generally rather naive individuals who are in denial in the first place
BarGnat2 -- You could always have her praying to the porcelain gods in the opening scene. EG --
Kay -- and a first time mother will figure it out later unless she and her beloved are at least keepign a hopeful eye on the calendar
catherine/splodge -- And its not like six weeks or more in she isn't showing visibly
Lucas -- Naive, possible, but undeniably physically peculiar as well.
Emryon -- I was born in denial
@Zette -- There are women who continue to have their period all the way through pregnancy. it's not common, but it does happen.
Kay -- the great white microphone, BG?
Robert -- Get her in a fight with an animal or something disgusting happens and she winds up retching. Then retching again.
BarGnat2 -- the very one, Kay.
catherine/splodge -- Mary - it is something like that
@Zette -- Catherine, you might want to work in some other illness that is spreading through the others, and she just assumes she has it as well.
Kay -- a little spotting the first month isn't unheard of
Khadres -- We had a high schooler here who had her baby in the rest room....claimed to be totally unknowing, thought she was just getting fat and had gas.
@Zette -- Even though she doesn't ahve the same symptoms.
Kay -- GREAT idea Zette!!!!
jebbo -- HI thought the question was where to start, not how to introduce the pregnancy???
Kay -- or not ALL of the same symptoms
jebbo -- Are these the same question?
@Zette -- Hey, all of it is a rewrite problem, Jebbo.
Robert -- Maybe she fears she's pregnant, dismisses it, then find s out she was right.
catherine/splodge -- Yeah - the issue was where to put the pregnancy discovery. If its ok to have her nearly two months in before she realizes
@Zette -- And it will help Catherine decide where to start the story.
catherine/splodge -- then I will and put something else at the beginning
@Zette -- Yeah, that will work.
jebbo -- ok, just checking
@Zette -- You just have to work it in carefully nd not make the character look too stupid.
Khadres -- True
@Zette -- It may take you a couple tries, but I think you'll get it without too much trouble.
Khadres -- Not that she can't be totally gobsmacked with shock....
Robert -- Wasn't this the medieval fantasy without magic?
catherine/splodge -- No - she's just enormously busy - traveling, hiding, god knows what else - and her period is the last thing on her mind
Khadres -- Right
@Zette -- Right. And then a sudden realization....
@Zette -- Yeah, that would be good.
Khadres -- Gives me chills just thinkin' about it!
catherine/splodge -- Robert - the "thing" that looks like a medieval fantasy
Khadres -- lol
catherine/splodge -- Actually, she meets a doctor, faints away, and the doctor tells her
@Zette -- Ah, good!
Khadres -- Cool!
Khadres -- And then she smacks her forehead ala I coulda had a V8!!!! for not noticing before?
Julia -- 'Say WHAT?!' g --
@Zette -- Of course, depending on the culture, she might not have had any idea what to expect anyway.
Khadres -- This is true too, zette
@Zette -- Thinking Coal Miners Daughter...
catherine/splodge -- Isabel is a genius philosopher scientist
catherine/splodge -- she knows the biology, but just doesn't think of it g --
BarGnat2 -- But did her mama tell her about birds and bees?
@Zette -- Still doesn't tell us about the culture and pregnancy.
@Zette -- Ah!
Khadres -- You got it, I think
Khadres -- Depending on whether or not she's been trying to prevent it.....
Julia -- this thunderstorm is getting too close. gotta get offline.
@Zette -- (Just thinking about the stuff int he culture class I've been doing...)
BarGnat2 -- bye, Julia
Khadres -- Awww...bye, Julia...good luck!
Julia -- thanks and have fun!
BarGnat2 -- good luck with the weather
catherine/splodge -- bye Julia!
@Zette -- Bye! Good luck !
Robert -- Luck with it, Julia! Happy writing!
catherine/splodge -- Anyway, so Isabel finds out a bout the pregnancy later. SO I guess I'll start with Daddy to be discovering that the love of his life has buggered off
catherine/splodge -- and then show what Isabel is up to.
@Zette -- Try writing it. If it doesn't work, look at other spots.
catherine/splodge -- That gives me a big emotional scene to start
@Zette -- Sounds good!
Robert -- If there's someone around for Daddy to rip their head off in his grief that's good conflict.
catherine/splodge -- thanks, everyone!
catherine/splodge -- yep - ammarod, who Errond beleives is partly responsible for her going
@Zette -- Any other rewrite problems?
Kay -- 1st short story ever. Finished it. Got useful crits, and story wasn't too bad to begin with. Waited 3 mos & am now revising. Started in with the crits with fewest changes, moved on to the ones with more changes, and now, 2/3 of the way through the 2nd biggest one and 1/3 of the way into the biggest, I've bogged down and lost direction and got all muddled up because they go in slightly different directions (the crits).
Kay -- Help?
BarGnat2 -- I hope you saved the original
Kay -- yes
BarGnat2 -- Don't forget that it's YOUR story
@Zette -- Ah! Okay, I don't know if it will help with this one, but in the future... take notes on the crits and work from those. Don't go througha crit at a time.
catherine/splodge -- best to start with the big ones and work down
Robert -- Sounds like decision time. When critiquers disagree, one of them will be closer to your original idea or more appealing to you than the other.
jebbo -- Read all the crits, wait a day or two while you mull them over and then decide which direction you like best
Lucas -- So? The crits go in different directions. Which way were *you* going?
Robert -- What Cath said. I do the big stuff first and work down.
jebbo -- and it might be *none* of the ones in the crits
catherine/splodge -- you start with the structural stuff and only then do the nit picks
@Zette -- Always keep track of your story in your mind. Remember (which I said earlier) that these are all crits from writers. We're all going to want the story to go the way we would write it.
Khadres -- Sometimes various crits will lead to an entirely new idea, too
Kay -- take notes on the crits and work from the notes? Does a previous class of this explain that process?
Robert -- Yes. Often if I disagree with a crit it's nto with what's wrong but with the fix.
@Zette -- And discard crits, no matter how well written, that do not go in the way you want the story to go.
Khadres -- Right, it's YOUR story, after all!
@Zette -- Nah, I don't do crits enough to think of it until you mentioned it.
Kay -- okay, but take all the crits, organize them into notes for myself, like annotations?
catherine/splodge -- Robert -- I agree - I almost always agree with the spirit of the crit
@Zette -- But for the big stuff especially, look at what they're saying to do, and see if you agree. If it further YOUR story, use it. If it changes it, disguard it.
jebbo -- Is there a common theme to the crits? Do they all talk about, say, plot / tension or do they talk about, say, characterisation?
catherine/splodge -- (from the people around here, at least)
Khadres -- I think that is one of the biggest mistakes we made on Courting Death.....we slavishly tried to answer every crit comment whether it was right or not
@Zette -- Some people have trouble telling the difference between critting and offering what they would do with the story instead.
Lucas -- I've seen critiques that, despite what their good points, just are going at my story from a different angle than the one I want to take. In such situations, they go - slam, out the door. (Though I do consider them for what merit they do have.)
Kay -- only one common theme. i fixed that first off because i agreed, then i went back and did the nit picks and now i'm into teh deeper stuff.
@Zette -- I've seen people try to rewrite stories to every crit they get. Don't do it. You'll be in this sort of mess.
BarGnat2 -- Before you make any more changes, take another look at the story... it may be fixed already.
Khadres -- YES, what zette says
@Zette -- Does the deeper stuff really have to do with the story you wrote, or is some of it things that they'd like to see in the story?
Emryon -- damned right, Zette
@Zette -- There's a difference. Some of it can be helpful. Some of it is just their vision of the story they would write. (again)
BarGnat2 -- Is it posted anywhere that we can read it, Kay?
Kay -- The deeper stuff has an idea for heightening the stakes in a way that I think makes sense and will strengthen the story
Lucas -- I look first for critiques that tell me how to do what I want to do, how to refine my concepts, rather than ones that try to introduce someone elses concepts.
Emryon -- writers can't afford to be diplomats...some reviewers of your story are just plain WRONG
Kay -- No i had it taken down after i got enough crits.
Khadres -- We were busy trying to please everybody but ourselves there for awhile
BarGnat2 -- awww. Bummer.
@Zette -- I now thisis especially hard because you are on your first short story, and that puts you on ground you already feel uncertain about. But a story is a story. Go through the crits and find what helps your story. Get rid of the rest.
Khadres -- Ah, well, live and learn
BarGnat2 -- Well, it was worth a try. G --
Robert -- That can ruin a story sometimes if their direction doesn't please its genre fans.
Kay -- thanks, this gives me a method of proceeding. I'll take the crits turn them into annotations and then try the rewrite like that.
Robert -- And this is an odd suggestion - do another short story or two and get them done so you don't have all that weight on just one.
Khadres -- Please yourself FIRST
@Zette -- It might help. You can group things that way, and weigh one suggestion against another.
Emryon -- That's what Stunk and White say, too, Khadres
BarGnat2 -- How short is the short story?
Robert -- That gives it space to breathe and time to rest and you time to think of what you think of the crits.
Kay -- I've got the story, I just got bogged down in the rewrite. Partly through fear of having to send it out.
@Zette -- Nit picks you can just do, of course. But the deeper stuff you have to trust yourself with.
Robert -- Then definitely consider "write several and then start rewriting and sending."
jebbo -- Kay -- I have exactly that fear of the brown envelope
Khadres -- I think it helps to have other work in progress, or at least in the planning stage
BarGnat2 -- If it's short enough, rewrite it both ways
@Zette -- Yup. But you don't have to send it out until it's done. And only you get to say when that is.
Robert -- The more stories I have done the easier it is to rewrite and send them. The more already in the mail the easier it is to send another.
Kay -- Not a bad idea BG
Khadres -- Like Robert says, it takes the heat off the current project a little
Kay -- Okay, thanks. I just really needed a process, and you've given me that. Thanks VERY much. Jebbo, were you trying to be next?
Robert -- It's like getting a lottery ticket and going "do I use my birthday or my cat's birthday?" or having five tickets.
jebbo -- No
@Zette -- Oh yes. Having several stories done helps a lot. You no longer have all your hopes tied to one piece.
Kay -- yes, but ... its the only one so far. i'm jsut better at non-fiction
Kay -- and editing
Kay -- so i'm putting off writing.
Khadres -- You'll make the shift, Kay
Robert -- I had about a dozen different pro writers tell me "don't send out your story without starting another one. Don't just wait to hear about it."
Khadres -- It DOES take effort, tho....I was in the same boat
@Zette -- Once you get past this one, write another one. In fact, I would suggest you put this one aside for a few days and start a new one instead.
Emryon -- I'll do anything to keep from writing
Khadres -- I wanted with all my heart to write fiction more than anything, but only got paid for the non-fiction and editing....
Robert -- You could use your skilled nonfiction style in order to do an article that is a story - an SF story that is an article about something that doesn't exist.
@Zette -- I know that sounds frightening, but I think you might do well to put some distance between the problems of this rewrite and the material so you can start fresh.
Kay -- you and Robert on the same page is overwhelming force. Okay. New story tomorrow, even if i don't finish it.
@Zette -- Right!
Khadres -- got so used to facts, that I had quite a time changing mindsets
Kay -- YEAH!!!
catherine/splodge -- YAY Kay - and we'll all be there to bully you g --
@Zette -- (grin)
Kay -- (cringe)
Khadres -- Kay, with fiction you get to PLAY!!!!!!!
Robert -- Yayyy Kay!
Robert -- I want to see it too.
catherine/splodge -- yeah, me too
BarGnat2 -- Go get'm Kay!
jebbo -- A problem I ran into was that my second short was worse than the first, at least partly 'cos I changed genres (from hard sci-fi to fantasy). Don't let that put you off!
Robert -- Cheerleading in rough drafting helps.
Kay -- It will get done in a while.
@Zette -- Just write something fun. Don't worry about markets, perfection, or anything else. Write a story you want to read about anything and in any genre.
catherine/splodge -- come and do a word war, Kay
Kay -- okay. In the morning
Robert -- Yes. Word wars really help.
Khadres -- ENJOY yourself and forget about grumpy bosses who nitpick
Kay -- word war winds up with me chatting not writing
catherine/splodge -- rubs hands gleefully --
@Zette -- Okay, any other problems? This seems to have gone very well!
Robert -- I'll sprinkle virtual Ari hairs on you!
Kay -- like string of beads quote from one of Holly's or Sheila's recent blogs.
Khadres -- Yes, I've really enjoyed it! Thanks, zette!
Kay -- Yes it has Zette, again next week?
Robert -- Thanks zette! This really helped!
Kay -- Please?
catherine/splodge -- zette - its been great - lets definitely do this again
BarGnat2 -- Thanks for letting us play in class, Zette
Robert -- sprinkles cat hairs of inspiration on Kay --
BarGnat2 -- I seem to learn much more when it's fun
Kay -- thanx Robert!
Khadres -- sniffle....I don't get any????
Robert -- sprinkles cat hairs of inspiration on Khadres --
Khadres -- YAY!!!!!
Robert -- sprinkles cat hairs of inspiration on everybody, Ari is a hairy cat --
Khadres -- Thankee, Arikins!
BarGnat2 -- Attaboy, Ari!
catherine/splodge -- WWWAAAACCHHOOOO!! --
@Zette -- Yeah, again next week unless there's some major disaster around here.
Emryon -- if that works, with three cats, i should be doing 10 novels a year!
Kay -- Aristophenes is a great comedic playwright!
Khadres -- Cool!
Robert -- Virtual allergies, Splodge?
jebbo -- Oops, someone has alergies
Kay -- Thanks Zette!
BarGnat2 -- Great
BarGnat2 -- Thanks, zette
Lazette Gifford
My Internal Editor died of fright and my Muse is suing for overtime wages.
Assistant Site Host
Managing Editor, Holly Lisle's Vision (
http://lazette.net/vision)
Home Page:
http://lazette.net