Writer's Think Tank #19 -- 06/07/02

<@SLViehl> Evening everyone!
<BarGnat> Hi, Sheila
<Sarah> Hi Sheila!
<BarGnat> Hi, Dani
<Robert> Parakeets are fun. Ari doesn't chase virtual birds though, Neo is safe. Hi Sheila!
<Kay> Hello Sheila!
<BJ Steeves> Hi Sheila!
<jebbo> Evening Sheila
<Nathan> Hi Sheila
<Dani> hi Sheila, how're your feet??
<Fredrick> Hello, Sheila.
<Anne_Marble> Hello
<beard5> Hi Sheila
<Kay> Hello Dani
<Jaye> Australian beer, I like Toohey's Dry
<Dani> hi Kay
<Nathan> Oh...good. {Goes to get Neo}
<@SLViehl> Is that our SOON TO BE PUBLISHED Robert I see?
<Jaye> Or Coopers ale
<Robert> Sure is!
<beard5> boy, cato does not like long posts, does he?
<Jaye> Or Melbourne Bitter
<Nathan> Nope
<Nathan> Cato doesn't
<BarGnat> Cato does not like anything or anybody
<Jaye> Or Hahn
<beard5> bounced me right out of everything
<Jaye> Or Victorian bitter
<Jaye> Or Calton Gold
<jebbo> I've heard good things about Toohey's. But to someone who mentioned "Fosters" . . . get thee behind me, satan
<Nathan> Though I'm sure the ancient Roman philosopher Cato does....I dunno
<Jaye> Not Foster's, too bland
<BJ Steeves> Guiness
<@SLViehl> last call for beverages/bathroom breaks/whatever
<Jaye> I can't drink canned Guiness having drunk the real thing in Ireland.
<BarGnat> Hi, James
<@James> Hi all!
<Fredrick> I'm not a big beer expert. If I have a character in a story who wants a beer, I just have him say he ordered a beer.
<Dani> hi James!
<BJ Steeves> Evening James!
<RobertOnCloud9> Coffee...
<@James> So why are we arguing about Australian beers?
<Nathan> Hi James
<Jaye> I like Bud and they don't
<@James> Well, some of them weren't Australian. Just the good ones, I suspect
<Jaye> Or Michelob
<Nathan> A clue have I not
<RobertOnCloud9> I like Bud on hot days when it's bad out and have no taste in beer.
<Fredrick> I think they should combine beer cans and answering machines.
<RobertOnCloud9> I sort of take it for what it is.
<Sarah> Gah, the horde has arrived for pizza. I've got to go. Apparently I'm being recruited to ambush Nick and give him a makeover....
<Nathan> I don' even know why people drink the vile smelling stuff
<jebbo> <looks up and wonders what Robert is doing on that cloud>
<@James> Ah, I see. So you were arguing about weak, pallid American beers without muscle or appeal to refined tastes? Gotcha
<Jaye> My problem was that I had to drink what was available, not what I wanted.
<RobertOnCloud9> That would be interesting, Fredrick! First of Fredrick's Weird Ideas for the night...
<BarGnat> Hi, Anne
<Jaye> Yes. My point exactly james, but i didn't want to offend anyone.
<Anne-on-Second-Floor> Tee hee
<Fredrick> Out drinking for the now. Norm from Cheers would love that.
<Sarah> I'll be back if I can! <hugs Robert again just because>
<Fredrick> for the night
<@James> Erm -- anyone else experience big delays right now?
<@SLViehl> Are there two Annes with us tonight?
<Anne_Marble> Nope
<BarGnat> bye Sarah
<Jaye> No...
<@SLViehl> night Sarah
<@SLViehl> We're having a big thunderstorm here, so if anyone can back me up on the transcript tonight, I'd appreciate it.
<BarGnat> I'll try, but my ISP gets a bit iffy
<@SLViehl> brb -- and then I'll get the roster up and we'll get going.
<BJ Steeves> Your turn...Had those last week and never got on!
<RobertOnCloud9> I can try - shutting down everything else.
<@James> I might try logging in again, if this takes ages to go through...
<Fredrick> I'd rather drink coffee than beer.
<beard5> I'll try to copy also
<Dani> hi Gerri
<BarGnat> Hi, Steven
<beard5> assuming Cato doesn't get upset
<BarGnat> Hi, Gerri
<Nathan> I could try to back you up for transcript, if you want, I guess...
<beard5> we'll see how it works
<@SLViehl> If it's a problem, Nathan, don't worry about it.
<Nathan> Oh, no, no problem
<beard5> what would you like me to do with it afterwards?
<Gerri> heya
<BJ Steeves> Between us we should get one good copy.
<Nathan> Hi Gerri, everybody else I missed saying 'hi' to
<@SLViehl> If everyone would just hold on to their transcription, to see if I get through this session without getting bumped, then I can tell you if I get it all or need to get a copy of someone else's.
<@SLViehl> With this rain and lightning I'm always worried I'll get bounced.
<Fredrick> It was a dark and stormy night
<Jaye> lol...
<BarGnat> Or like Nonny's latest: a dark and story fight
<BarGnat> stormy
<Dani> I don't know, I liked 'story fight' (g)
<BarGnat> hehehe
<beard5> a word war, sort of
<Jaye> I thought getting hit by a clenched fish was good.
<BarGnat> (g)
<Anne_Marble> He was a dark and stormy knight.
<Dani> lol Jaye!
<beard5> LOL Jaye
<Jaye> Who was it who skated on a frozen leak?
<BarGnat> lol
<Nathan> Ahhh..I see, that how you work it. You pick on those who are a little late, and make them go first, and then when people get here early, you put them in the middle...okay....now I know when to get here... :D
<beard5> Dick Buttons? Peggy fleming
<Nathan> Not that I have a problem with being second or anything... :D
<@SLViehl> Welcome Charles, Jaye and all our regulars and new people
<beard5> Sheila, I don't have any questions as far as I know tonight
<Kay> I wish Dick Buttons would go and take a leak, then maybe he wouldn't be such a misogynist so and so.
<@SLViehl> No problem, beard, when we get to you just say "pass"
<Jaye> <bows deeply>
<@SLViehl> Hi Nicosian
<Jaye> <waves a clenched fish>
<James> I'm clearly going to have problems tonight -- don't be alarmed if I appear and vanish all over the place.
<Nicosian> hello.
<Nathan> Hi Nicosian
<Gerri> I haven't thought of anything I need to ask...
<Charles> Hi everyone
<Dani> hi Nicosian
<Dani> hi Charles
<Nicosian> hello all.
<Charles> Never used one of these before
<Jaye> Mousekateer rollcall!
<Fredrick> Sounds like Jaye's hot to trout.
<BarGnat> Hi, Charles, Hi, Nicosian
<RobertOnCloud9> Hi everyone I missed saying hi to while scribing!
<Dani> Jaye, put that fish down, you'll put out an eye!
<@SLViehl> All right, let's get started -- Welcome to the Think Tank, I'm your moderator, S.L. (Sheila) Viehl. Before we get to our first name on the roster -- that's you, Robert -- James has an idea to pitch to the group.
<Jaye> <putting the fish down, slowly>
<@SLViehl> (putting James on the spot)
<Fredrick> Quit carping
<Jaye> It's a flake...
<Fredrick> No, just a fishy situation.
<BarGnat> Sole ownership?
<Jaye> I'm floundering here...
<James> I'll try -- it might be a bit disjointed.
<Dani> Get back on your perch.
<RobertOnCloud9> You're no pikers with the puns
<Jaye> Oh, a shark wit, eh?
<@SLViehl> All right with the fish already (groan)
<@SLViehl> lol
<Charles> Crabby?
<Fredrick> It's only bass-ic instinct.
<RobertOnCloud9> She needs to chant her mantas
<BJ Steeves> Blues
<Jaye> Show us your mussels!
<James> What I was thinking, was at some point in each session, we brainstorm a story idea. Someone says, "Let's come up with interesting things to do with Vampires"
<Anne_Marble> Today I got "No bull" spam where the spammer called his program "utterly fantastic"!
<Kay> Robert are you getting this, it's as good as the spiders
<RobertOnCloud9> I'm fishing for it and I'm hauling in a good catch.
<Nicosian> wouldn't that be "udderly" Anne?
<James> And the whole group brainstorms the hell out of vampires, how they can be used, made different, whatever.
<Anne_Marble> Whoops, that's what I meant to type. That's what he said.
<Jaye> Well, Cod willing we should get going...
<Charles> Sounds workable, James.
<Fredrick> Yeah, we could milk it for all its worth.
<James> And at the end, everyone may use any of the suggestions in whole or in part to produce a story. Just as a means to produce more stories, I guess.
<RobertOnCloud9> I think that's a neat idea - not every time but sometimes. When people have problems they'd still want to bring them up even if topic unrelated.
<beard5> not a bad idea
<@SLViehl> I like this idea because it gets us thinking in different directions. In other words, like Fredrick.
<BarGnat> Yes, what Robert said.
<Fredrick> I use directions?
<@SLViehl> Fredrick, we're not even sure you're sharing the same planet, lol
<Nathan> Nice idea...one thing. I don't know much about vampires. Alls I know is that theys don' like Garlic...which means that I wouldn't get along with them verra well
<Dani> If 'all' is a direction, Fredrick
<Kay> You have an unusual slant on things.
<jebbo> Actually, brainstorming not an idea but a theme might work as well
<beard5> different directions, written in swahili, and illustrated in braille
<James> We can either roster people at the end of each session to bring a general concept to the next session, or e-mail them to Sheila as ideas occur to us and she can raise them, or handle it any other way that seems good to all.
<beard5>
<Dani> LOL beard
<jebbo> Probably have to set bounds on genre
<RobertOnCloud9> 101 fishy things you can do with a vampire...
<Fredrick> Vampire cows.
<Kay> 501 vampiric verbs
<James> Theme is good, too -- casting the net that broadly will likely produce a huge range of thoughts and ideas.
<@SLViehl> I was thinking we'd post general ideas on the Think Tank reminder -- then I'll just pick one at random.
<@SLViehl> And keep a running list of the others.
<@SLViehl> If that's acceptable to the group?
<BarGnat> That sounds like a good approach
<Dani> sounds good to me!
<RobertOnCloud9> Good idea, Sheila! Yeah!
<Anne_Marble> Cool
<Jaye> Yep.
<beard5> sounds good
<James> That sounds good, Sheila -- the whole board can end up adding something, and we select one at the start of each Tank.
<Kay> That sounds like a good way to do it.
<Nathan> I guess..
<jebbo> Works for me. Probably need to have a list of what's already been covered or there'll be lots of duplicate suggestions
<James> Or you do, or maybe one will stand out as irresistable.
<Anne_Marble> Wow, spam for Russian books that refers to me as a "customer." Nyet! Nyet!
<@SLViehl> Okay, so from next Friday on, post your general discussion topics to the TT reminder thread. I'll keep a running list here.
<RobertOnCloud9> Cool! Whale of a good idea.
<@SLViehl> I can keep a running list on the reminder, jebbo
<beard5> Anne, why do you get better spam than I do?
<BarGnat> eww
<James> First one to place a story generated here gets icecream pegged at them. Or our hearty congratulations
<Jaye> I is a spam-free zone...
<James> That should be a not a
<@SLViehl> All right, so now we'll get started -- Robert, you're up, Nathan, you're after Robert
<Nathan> {Crossing his fingers} Let there ot be one on Vampiers...let there not be one on vampires...
<Dani> Can we have both? Hearty icecream and flung congratulations?
<Nathan> Rawger thait cap'n
<James> Why not?
<RobertOnCloud9> Write them in ice cream.
<Gerri> lol
<RobertOnCloud9> Okay. This is going to be tricky, because I want to discuss an erotica concept without regard to its content. Stating that right off the bat.
<James> Then the ants will eat them. Disappearing texts. Performance art. We'll be famous!
<beard5> jesse helms will object to the funding of it
<@SLViehl> Settle down, people. Go ahead, Robert, use your best judgement.
<RobertOnCloud9> This is about structre, not content. PL suggested a "create your own erotic adventure" book and the idea stuck with me.
<RobertOnCloud9> I think it will need a lot more outlining than any other type of book I could do but if I get it right would work well. And allow other types of Create Yoru Own Adventure books too.
<RobertOnCloud9> Er that should be Choose Your Own Adventure.
<@SLViehl> So what's your question, Robert?
<RobertOnCloud9> And I'm thinking loosely of: character sheets with depth backstory on all characters and reasons to be involved plus different reactions
<RobertOnCloud9> And a flow chart for the outline. Has anyone had experience outlining that deeply and just writing little short scenes?
<RobertOnCloud9> Yet trying to keep it reading well no matter which way you go? (sorry for length of Q)
<Anne_Marble> There are articles on how to write choose your own books. I read one in an old Writer's Digest. I tried it, and it was complicated.
<Dani> Robert, I've part written a choose your own adventure story. I used html to plan a 'skeleton'.
<@SLViehl> I think if you outline too concisely you might choke the story -- or yourself when you're writing it.
<Anne_Marble> It should be much like planning out an RPG game.
<Gerri> or a computer game, anne
<beard5> it's kind of what I'm doing with my WIP, I set up a calendar showing when things occured
<Anne_Marble> That's true, Sheila, I think I throttled my story.
<@SLViehl> There's a definite structure involved in these already, right, Dani?
<BJ Steeves> I agree, check some of the game references for ideas.
<Dani> Can be, Sheila
<Fredrick> Is this is 2nd person "you", Robert?
<beard5> and then write quick descriptions of each event
<RobertOnCloud9> Second half of question - should I treat "amount of sex scenes" as comparable to "number of h/h scenes in a romance" and build a good plot for it as well?
<Gerri> yeah...I'd be thinking about outlining with index cards, too...
<jebbo> I'd start with planning two or three main "threads" through the book i.e. the interesting ones and figure out where they fork from each other
<Dani> Specially if you want readers to have passed through some experience, no matter what path they take ie. met a particular character.
<Charles> I'd run down to the used bookstore and pick up a few. Split the spine and lay them out and see how it's formatted.
<beard5> yes, good plot is necessary
<Gerri> and play with each fork.
<@SLViehl> Have you read any of the published books in this category, Robert? How do they handle the amount of intimacy?
<jebbo> once you have these, figure out how you can cross from one thread to another and add all sorts of dead-ends and things
<Dani> One tip I cam up with: instead of outlining plot, outline releative amounts of time spent in alternate branches.
<RobertOnCloud9> I don't think the exact category exists, SHeila. I think PL invented it.
<Gerri> lol
<Charles> Right, jebbo. Some choices end the story quickly
<RobertOnCloud9> That's neat - like you could take your time rambling through or chase on through to the plot conclusion.
<Fredrick> Perhaps you could work backwards, start with the ending and go back.
<@SLViehl> With a choice involved for the reader, you'll need to figure out a flow chart of choices, definitely.
<Nicosian> the "bucket of cold water",so to speak?
<Anne_Marble> I've seen some ads for customized erotic stories, but that's about it. I didn't order one as the prices were really high.
<RobertOnCloud9> If I do it right it'll be personal taste how much rambling they do.
<Fredrick> Or should I say endings.
<Dani> Robert - I'll email you later with some of the structural ideas I came up with, if you want?
<jebbo> You can also create loops if you want to lead the reader in a particular direction
<James> It sounds like a good excuse to use the format to demonstrate something about the nature of sexual relationships, a way of laying out all of a character's possible sexual avenues and draw a big picture of human sexuality.
<Gerri> and invest in 2-sided tape....tape any cards up on the wall to keep the flow working, robert...you'll want to "see" how the flowchart works in a more visual manner than normal
<@SLViehl> Obviously, the more adventurous the choice, the longer the thread (to my reasoning, anyway)
<Kay> I once played a computer game that actually did that, with multiple choice questions and a choice of the "rating such as PG -13" fo rthe game as a whole. it was interesting.
<RobertOnCloud9> James, on the level it's a serious book that's what I'd like it to be.
<Nathan> Who's PL
<Dani> Are you going to set it withing an overall plot? With an aim, an ending?
<Anne_Marble> Leather Goddesses of Phobos! ;->
<@SLViehl> Trying to imagine writing one of these. It would be like wandering through a fun house with a lot of different exits.
<RobertOnCloud9> Yes, Dani - it will have a setting and a goal for the point of view player of book, it's a lot like GM for a game too for me.
<@SLViehl> metaphorically speaking, naturally
<James> It sounds like the sort of gimmicky structure used to make serious literary point thing that Geoff Ryman has done the last couple of books.
<Anne_Marble> I got lost on one plot thread on the one I tried.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Robert?
<jebbo> If there is a goal to the book, you can even play with passages using authorial voice
<Fredrick> I think you'd need to plot a lot for this one.
<RobertOnCloud9> I'm half thinking of making one path a soft core romance path so that a reader could elect that as a set of choices.
<Dani> They can be so much fun to write, though. More like poetry than a novel, in some ways.
<Charles> Are you thinking of doing a series of these, Robert or just a one off?
<Kay> that's right, and some of them spit you back out near the entrance; others wind up wtih you getting killed by an orc, and still otehrs wind up with you winning the hand of the prince or princess and the Hope Diamond.
<Fredrick> Otherwise different variations of sex scenes might grow stale.
<RobertOnCloud9> If I get it right once I don't see why I couldn't use the method and a different plot and characters and do it again.
<@SLViehl> I'd go with a cause and effect outline -- the "if you do this, this will happen" basic structure. Lots of detail may end up choking you when you write.
<James> Maybe, start with what point you hope all these sexual adventures will have as a whole, then plot paths backwards from there, so all choices lead to the point you're making?
<Jaye> Use the Karma Sutra for different plot areas.
<Gerri> lol, Jaye
<RobertOnCloud9> Please do - robertsloan2@hotmail.com
<jebbo> Setting could be interesting. Where does it happen?
<Anne_Marble> Oooh, search for "choose your own adventure" on Google, you might find some hits.
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all for some great ideas -- Nathan, you're up, Anne, you're after Nathan
<RobertOnCloud9> I haven't decided yet - tempted to use my fantasy world and make this one of the "pillow books" i keep referring to.
<Nathan> I hope this isn't a redundant question...
<RobertOnCloud9> Thanks everyone it's been GREAT help!
<James> There are no redundant questions!
<@SLViehl> there are no redundant questions, Nathan
<Anne_Marble> http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&safe=off&q=%22writing+choose+your+own+adventure%22
<Dani> (hi, Sarah)
<@SLViehl> James, quit reading my mind
<Nathan> a week or two ago I was working on one of my WIP s, and I was on a roll. Until one evening I finished a chapter without the slightest note as to what s grand scheme I had planned for the next chapter. (except for the fact the the MC was going to burst into the throne room and kill the creul evil person-who-took-over the planet(Antagonist, I think) after being resurectted back from the dead.) Anyw
<James> Sorry -- telepathy turned off
<Nathan> Anyways, I was wondering if any of yous knew what grand plan I should use.
<Gerri> lol
<RobertOnCloud9> Well, bursting into the room to kill the bad guy looks like a plan. Why not set up what the bad guy's got for defenses and let them duke it out?
<Gerri> the sneakier, the better, IMO
<Charles> Are you near the end of the book?
<@SLViehl> I'd go for the not-so-obvious. Reverse everything.
<Jaye> A kind of this is between me and you thing...
<beard5> does the guy win or is he sent home in a cardboard box?
<@SLViehl> Have the bad guy try to kill your MC
<Nathan> I'm near the end of this section of the book
<jebbo> What do you mean by grand plan? do you mean for that next chapter or for the plot of the whole book?
<James> What, Robert said. Ask yourself the old what's the worst thing could happen when the hero bursts in for some villain slaying, and pick some of the more surprising things that occur to you.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe he can burst into the room as a distraction, while someone else puts the real plot into motion while they're all looking at him
<RobertOnCloud9> He does and finds out he killed the wrong man.
<Fredrick> The protagonist rushes up to murder the bad guy, but instead finds his best friend on the throne and is betrayed.
<@SLViehl> oh, Robert, nice.
<Jaye> Ooops...
<Nathan> Jebbo: How the good guy beats the current bad guy
<@SLViehl> and Fredrick's idea is great, too.
<jebbo> Well, the chapter has to make things worse for the MC.
<Nathan> Did I say kill...I meant t say imprisons
<Fredrick> Where are the palace guards when all this is happening?
<jebbo> He could fail to kill the bad guy
<Nathan> t=to
<Fredrick> I doubt they'd let somebody in to kill QEII
<jebbo> He could kill the guy only to discover he was really a goody
<jebbo> he could kill the wrong guy
<Sarah-not-here> Is there anything the villain actually cares about that the MC could use for blackmail?
<Jaye> Imprisonings good, somehow he has to escape to try again.
<Fredrick> He could find a mirror on the throne and realize that he is the bad guy.
<@SLViehl> Or have the MC prepared to imprison the bad guy, then find out he has to set him free or a lot of people will be hurt/killed
<beard5> a body double, one of those actors that impersonate the evil overlord
<Kay> He knows that when he goes in, he'll be arrested instantly, so he goes in disguise
<Fredrick> In disguise.
<RobertOnCloud9> The real villain laughs and gloats "You killed my pawn. Congratulations for destroying my enemy. You are now so messed up"
<@SLViehl> (making note never to tick off Robert)
<Nathan> Frederick: He's (the MC) a prisoner who the king wants to see to decide how to execute him(the MC) but the MC wasn't really arrested
<jebbo> Basically, if what the MC does makes the situation worse, then you've done a right thing
<@SLViehl> there you go, jebbo
<Nathan> Actually, Robert...I was thinking of that for an hour or two
<jebbo> He could even fail to break into the throne room and injure his shoulder making him unable to fight for months
<RobertOnCloud9> Or he can just find out it's wrose. That villain was also holding back the demon of ultimate destruction and now no one controls it.
<Fredrick> The throne could come alive and attack MC.
<Dani> Oh, nice, Robert
<Charles> He kills him and learns that the now dead guy was the only one who could have kept someone the MC loved from dying.
<Anne_Marble> I think I'm going to tie Robert to my computer next time I have plot problems.
<Nathan> Me too, Anne
<@SLViehl> One of us should just marry Robert.
<Kay> You'll have to catch him first, and that means getting past Ari.
<Dani> He kills him and the parastic monster inside the bad guy bursts out
<Fredrick> Could I marry Robert too?
<RobertOnCloud9> Tosca. Charles saw Tosca. Tosca killed Scarpia after getting him to let her lover free and fake his death - then found out Scarpia had not done it and killed herself.
<beard5> ::scritches for ari and robert::
<Fredrick> I don't snore much
<jebbo> He stabs the bad guy only to find the wounds heal and he gets larger (or stronger)
<Fredrick>
<Anne_Marble> Polyandry, huh? OK, now it's no longer PG-13. ;->
<Dani> Argh, imagine the children of Fredrick and Robert! Prolific and quirky...
<Nathan> Robert: What are you talking about?
<James> Hmm --- you know you're all flirting with ending up in Robert's choose-your-own...?
<@SLViehl> ahem, let's not go there....
<Anne_Marble> Ooh, good, Tony. Like the hydra.
<RobertOnCloud9> We need girls in it
<Fredrick> I like that one, Jebbo.
<Kay> Scarpia was the worst bad guy -- I hate his guts.
<jebbo> he stabs the bad guy but the wound is inflicted on himself
<Charles> Well i was thinking he then would have to come up with a way to save his loved one, by impersonaying the dead guy or something
<Fredrick> At the end of Shakespeare almost everyone would end up dead.
<@SLViehl> The bad guy is imprisoned, then takes over the prison and rallies the prisoners. Instant army.
<Dani> Does the MC get wounded in the fight, Nathan?
<Nathan> No...he gets killed
<Kay> It's an opera, Nathan. By Puccini. Maria Callas sang it with Toscanini conducting.
<Dani> The MC gets killed??
<RobertOnCloud9> You kill your MC there? COOL!
<Charles> Ooooh Brunhilda you're so loooovely....
<Nathan> He comes back to life (I'm thinking of hiring a romance writer to write that part)
<Anne_Marble> Aww. Sniffle.
<Dani> LOL Nathan
<Kay> But he comes back from the dead!
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nathan?
<BJ Steeves> Charles...Thats Wagner.
<Dani> Killing your MC sounds like a fine Grand Plan of its own!
<RobertOnCloud9> That is classic. Does he owe the god of the dead for it or have death gods pursuing after? or a destiny?
<Kay> Man of LaMancha! Each time he falls he shall rise again, and woe to the wicked.
<Fredrick> Is dying the only way he can defeat the bad guy?
<Charles> D'oh!
<@SLViehl> I like a lot of the ideas the group has -- you've got lots to pick from, Nathan. Try going for what the reader doesn't expect.
<Nathan> Thanks all..verra much....
<Nathan> Frederick: In the long run, yes
<James> Maybe have the MC learn something time critical just as he dies -- knowing he can't come back in time to prevent it from happening (whatever it is)?
<Fredrick> Perhaps he can use magic to cut up the bad guy without laying a finger on him.
<Fredrick> I mean the good guy.
<@SLViehl> and thanks to all, Robert's hand in marriage still being up in the air....Anne, you're up, Jaye, you're after Anne.
<Fredrick> Not the bad guy.
<Anne_Marble> Okie... I thought of reworking one of my earliest stories -- as a parody, because it was so (unintentionally) bizarre. :-> However, it stars... Sherlock Holmes. Most of the stories are in the public domain, but the last are still under copyright in the U.S. The estate has not trademarked the character of Holmes, but a woman in American has tried. Help! Can I write this story? Should I change his
<RobertOnCloud9> Perhaps he ironically learns a way he could have defeated the bad guy without dying - a bit too late.
<jebbo> The bad guy is the MC seen through a gateway or time or something so he kills himself?
<Fredrick> Always a bride's mate, but never a bride <sniff>
<Anne_Marble> name? Ger permission? Something?
<Nathan> Well the MC's only dead a few minutes...he then...um, yeah, I'm definitly thinking opf hiring a romance writer to write that part
<Nathan> :D
<RobertOnCloud9> Fade on it starts, fade on that scene ends.
<Dani> Laurie King wrote a series using Sherlock Holmes...
<James> Changing the name sounds a safe option -- some silly variant of Sherlock Holmes that's perfectly obvious.
<beard5> Anne, I don't know copyright law in the least, is there a way to check with the estate
<beard5> ?
<BarGnat> Would the story still work if you changed the name?
<@SLViehl> If Sherlock Holmes is public domain, you can use him, but you need to verify that.
<Anne_Marble> I could call him Shamroc, or something...
<Fredrick> Could you parody his name? Call him Shylock Helms or Shorelock Hymns,
<RobertOnCloud9> I'm over my head with the Holmes thing. Doesn't seem like a later writer's pastiche should get full copyright except to what she added to it.
<Dani> Bakerstreet.
<Jaye> Shamroc Helm?
<BJ Steeves> Shamrock Foams?
<BarGnat> Sheringford Holmes
<Sarah-not-here> I still remember hearing of a writer in another NG being asked to change Sherlock Holmes to something else.... <wracking brain>
<@SLViehl> If you make a parody, you don't need anyone's permission.
<jebbo> Hmm . . . there have definitely been new SH things done. Hollywood did a silly film called "Without a Clue" or something so you may be OK.
<BarGnat> Since that was originally planned to be his name
<Charles> You can do it. Anne. two brand new Holmes patiches came out in the last couple of months from major publishers with no agreement witht he Doyle estate
<Anne_Marble> The plot involves a modern man who is a Holmes fan. After a traumatic event, he wakes up thinking he's Holmes. So it would be weird to have him be a fan of Shamrock Bones.
<Charles> Just don't use any characters from the collection The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes
<Anne_Marble> Oh, that's the last one.
<Sarah-not-here> There was a TV series about Shirley Holmes, his great grand-niece... not sure if that was done with permission or not, though...
<RobertOnCloud9> Oh dang that's odd territory in itself since your character isn't Doyle's but someone who thinks he is.
<James> Oh, that sounds to me like it shouldn't be a problem. Don't quote me, but if he's not actually Holmes...
<Jaye> The traumatic event could have scrambled his recollection a little...
<Fredrick> I parodied Oddjob in one of my stories.
<Fredrick> From Goldfinger.
<Fredrick> And the lawyers didn't beat down my door...yet
<Anne_Marble> Well actually it turns out that he really is Holmes. You see, Holmes was immortal...
<Charles> At the moment in the US, there is no trademark holder for Holmes and Watson
<RobertOnCloud9> Fred Saberhagen wrote a Holmes-Dracula crossover.
<Anne_Marble> Unless that weird woman wins her case.
<James> Double ah, that recomplicates things...
<@SLViehl> Old friend of the family, wasn't it, Robert?
<Anne_Marble> If you ever saw "They Might Be Giants," this is like that but with a twist.
<RobertOnCloud9> I think Saberhagen would have something to say about it
<Nathan> Yes, but he died like, a bazillion times
<Anne_Marble> Some of the pastiches did have the estate's permission. I think Meyers had their permission.
<Fredrick> Didn't Nicholas Meyer do Sherlock Holmes books like The Seven-Percent Solution?
<RobertOnCloud9> Something like that, he did it after the Dracula tape and they met and went up against each other sort of.
<Dani> There might be Holmes sites that would tell you?
<@SLViehl> If Holmes is indeed public domain, no one can copyright the original characters.
<Anne_Marble> Nathan> OK immortal except taht he died.
<Fredrick> What about Professor Moriarty?
<Charles> it's not the copyright that's the problem. it's the trademark
<RobertOnCloud9> It ws part of his Dracula pastiche. And I think that may be why Hollywood loves them - both Drac and Holmes. No Royalties.
<Fredrick> Supposedly Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed the real creator of Sherlock Holmes. Now that would be an interesting story!
<Charles> Just like the Fliescher Superman cartoons from the 1930s are in public domain, but Superman is still a trademark of DC Comics
<Anne_Marble> Oh I heard that story was a crock.
<Anne_Marble> yeah, that woman's hubbie did a Holmes TV show in the 1950s, so she's using laws to try to win the trademark.
<Fredrick> Crock or not, it's still interesting to speculate.
<jebbo> Copyright law is in a dreadful state at the moment -- all the content providers (Sony, TimeWarner, etc) are trying all sorts of ploy to extend copyright beyond all reasonable bounds
<Dani> Laurie R King doesn't seem to have any disclaimer on her published Holmes novel, just checked my copy.
<Charles> That story was a crock, Anne. No one killed Fletcher Robinson
<James> I can't see a man who believed in fairies being a cold, mercenary killer. Well, I can actually, but I'd rather not...
<jebbo> Like getting rid of "fair use" for one
<@SLViehl> lol James
<@SLViehl> Is the story worth the headaches, Anne?
<Charles> No, The Beekeeper's Apprentice and it's sequels are not approved by the Doyle estate
<Fredrick> What if Professor Moriarty came to life, murdered Doyle and took his place?
<Anne_Marble> (Imagining fairies with little white dresses, and machine guns)
<Fredrick> Then wrote Professor Moriarty tales
<Anne_Marble> So I guess they finally fell out ..
<Jaye> Artemis Fowl, anne
<beard5> They Fight Crime!
<Fredrick> Where he was the hero.
<Sarah-not-here> Now Jaye is reading my mind...
<Anne_Marble> It might be, it could be fun. Once I'm done Gorok and Wulf.
<Charles> John Garner wrote two Moriarity Novels
<Nathan> Shame have verra little idea what everybodys talkin' 'bout
<Charles> but Moriarity is waaaaaay over used.
<Anne_Marble> You have to read some Sherlock Holmes stories then. ;->
<Nathan> Shame I have
<@SLViehl> Young Sherlock Holmes, great movie, Nathan
<Fredrick> Sherlock Holmes meets the Shadow.
<James> Must he be Holmes? Could he be the immortal genius Doyle based Holmes on, knew it, and that's why the trauma put the idea in his head?
<BJ Steeves> Moriarty even appeared in a Next Generations eposode or two.
<Charles> I have over three hundred Sherlcok Holmes pastiches. Trust me.
<Nathan> I've listened to a couple of the radio show eppys
<Nathan> Next generations? As is Star Trek?
<Anne_Marble> I think if I'm going to do it, it's worth doing it with Sherlock. As long as he doesn't turn out to be Jack the Ripper.
<BJ Steeves> Yep
<Nathan> Cool
<Fredrick> Or you could create an entirely new Victorian detective, like Anne Perry did with her Inspector Pitt series.
<Charles> Yes, Data recreated Moriarity in the holo deck but he got out
<Anne_Marble> Oh yeah their Moriarty was cool. He was the actor who played the butler on the Nanny show.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Anne?
<Dani> Anne, doesn't sound like it'll be a legal problem, anyway
<BJ Steeves> Correct!
<Anne_Marble> But it's taking pplace in the present.
<Jaye> You can either wait, or go for it.
<RobertOnCloud9> Very cool if he caught a serial killer like the Ripper though.
<@SLViehl> I'd check into the trademark thing before committing to it. Save yourself the headaches.
<Fredrick> Then a modern day homicide detective who encounters a man who thinks he's Holmes.
<BarGnat> So, make it take place in the future, Anne
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, maybe I'll e-mail the estate.
<James> If you're determined and worried, I'd check with the Estate...
<Fredrick> Or a serial killer who's copying the crimes from Doyle's books.
<Charles> holmes Vs the ripper is the subject of at least five existing pastiches already
<Nathan> Merlock Blomes: dectective where few are needed
<Nathan> Or should that be a dectective of the future where...
<Anne_Marble> Oh, and in my version, Watson was his psychiatrist. And a woman.
<Dani> Charles, are you a collector?
<RobertOnCloud9> If he's doing that millions of readers have all the clues and one of them would get it. He'd have to be very sharp to use the pattern and dodge the pattern.
<Charles> Yes, Dani. big time heh
<Anne_Marble> Oh, there's a new cartoon on nowadays, Sherlock Holmes in the 30th century or something.
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for the suggestions -- Jaye, you're up, Jebbo, you're after Jaye
<Nathan> Weird
<Fredrick> Sherlock Holmes meets Minority Report pre-crime unit
<jebbo> I'll bepassing; no question tonight
<Nathan> That was what I just said
<@SLViehl> no problem, Jebbo
<Jaye> A seige. Defenders have superior weapons but an unknown number of troops. Attackers army has been reduced by two-thirds. Why don't the defenders come out and crush the enemy?
<jebbo> Just warning Kay, who is after me
<Kay> Thanks for the warning Jebbo!
<Sarah-not-here> The enemy has their leader hostage.
<Dani> Religious scruples?
<Fredrick> The ground is cursed.
<James> One of the attackers has powers the equal of a large army, under certain circumstances?
<jebbo> Time period / setting ?
<RobertOnCloud9> There are still too many enemy to make that a sure thing and defenders are weakend by long siege.
<Nathan> Defenders have only 2 or 3 persons
<BarGnat> their superior weapons are not portable
<@SLViehl> Leaving the castle opens up the defenders for accounting -- maybe they don't have superior numbers.
<Fredrick> Like that Samurai Jack episode with the bowmen.
<Dani> Are characters in attacking army?
<James> The attackers carry but are immune to a deadly plague?
<@SLViehl> the defenders are all women.
<Charles> Their superior weapons are no match for our puny...no wait...
<RobertOnCloud9> A sortie or sally is always a risk and castle isn't as defensible and expedition may not get back in again.
<Dani> Want to leave the attackers around to bear the brunt of a third attack force arriving soon...
<Fredrick> Attackers have orders to seize the castle, but not actually enter it.
<Jaye> Yes, the MCs are in the attacking army. I like the unportability of weapons...
<beard5> the defenders are agoraphobic?
<Nathan> There was a prophecy that vaugly said that a battle that met all the circumstances of this current battle would be lost
<Dani> lol beard
<Fredrick> The castle could be pregnant.
<Fredrick> And it would be a sin to enter.
<@SLViehl> That's Robert's plot, Fredrick
<Fredrick> Sorry
<@SLViehl> lol
<James> It's in the interest of the defenders to extend the siege: they're waiting for someone or something to arrive from outside?
<beard5> LOL
<Jaye> No prophecies, it's not that kind of fantasy.
<Kay> Defenders expect a large force to come and relieve the siege, and are waiting for its arrival because they need to crush attackers completely. If attackers think they're too weak to sortie,they are likelier to stay and be trapped.
<Dani> defenders could be rooted to the city, their power only exists within the walls
<Fredrick> The castle grows legs and runs away.
<Charles> The defenders have set up some defense that they can't get past themselves. If they leave the walss they'll be killed by magic or something
<@SLViehl> or the defenders could be peasants, dressed as knights.
<jebbo> 1/3 of the attackers could still be 100,000 people . . .
<Jaye> My thought is that the defenders are toying with the attackers...
<Nathan> Defenders want P-O-W's to hold for ransom
<Anne_Marble> The defenders are naked.
<BarGnat> the leader of the defenders is wounded or dead and with no proper chain of command, they're stuck
<James> Oh, like that, Charles. Something they cast into the walls -- no passing in or out.
<Kay> LOL Anne!
<RobertOnCloud9> We'll mount big chicken legs on it and they'll think Baba Yaga is inside and think twice. Good plan!
<Dani> Defenders are letting desertion take its toll on the attackers first
<Fredrick> The castle is made out of burning lava
<Charles> Right. They can turn it off but at a cost
<Nathan> All defenders are female
<Jaye> Defenders are proper military people, the attackers are not. At least not really.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe the defenders have been exposed to the plague, and much as they hate the attackers, they don't want to spread the plague.
<Fredrick> The castle is in one reality and the attackers are in another.
<jebbo> There is a killing ground outside the defenses which is what allows the defenders such success but they will get decimated if they try to cross it
<@SLViehl> Go with that, Anne -- what if the defenders were all blind from disease?
<Dani> Defenders want to humilate and weaken the attackers first for personal reasons
<RobertOnCloud9> Maybe the attackers have a plague and the defenders don't want to get it.
<Nathan> they want the Attckers to think it's an empty castle
<Dani> Defenders are taking attackers on one by one in single combat
<Charles> early curfew
<Nathan> Cholera
<Anne_Marble> The plague blinded them. Or maybe they have porphyria and can't stand strong sunlight.
<Fredrick> A moat made out of evil magic.
<@SLViehl> the defenders are priests and monks.
<Anne_Marble> Vow of silence
<Jaye> Think David Weber versus Elizabeth Moon
<James> Can't attack until the right rituals are completed?
<@SLViehl> or templars -- they were all outlawed eventually
<RobertOnCloud9> Attackers have a curse that's like rabies, no one wants to get it. Their dead rise aas living dead that eat people.
<Charles> Time for letterman
<Dani> Defenders believe in fair play and are giving the attackers a chance to bulk up
<beard5> blind, agoraphobic, naked priests and monks
<jebbo> The defenders have been sealed in by the attackers either by mistake or deliberately but before they realised they were outclessed
<@SLViehl> euuwww, Robert, I like it
<@SLViehl> lol beard
<Fredrick> It is a religious holiday for the attackers.
<Fredrick> Can't fight on that day.
<@SLViehl> or the defenders are all novices (pre-nuns)
<Anne_Marble> Letterman?! Oh, at the castle. I was going to ask you if you lived in Iceland.
<@SLViehl> and the castle is an abbey
<Dani> There's something outside the walls the defendes can't risk damaging!! Attackers have a hostage
<@SLViehl> I mean, convent
<Fredrick> The castle is spinning like a top and there isn't enough to leap through the entrance.
<Fredrick> time to leap
<James> If they're toying with the attackers, they may be waiting for the defenders to get reinforcement, because they want to kill or humiliate someone in the reinforcing party.
<Charles> Plenty of good ideas here, ganag
<Nathan> They're only weapon is being fire breathers (That is flame shhoots out from their mouths at their will) and their lips are duct taped together, and they can't figure out how to undo the Ducttape. (their mouths are superglued together)
<RobertOnCloud9> The magical shields on the castle won't go up again if they're ever let down.
<beard5> abbey would be right also, run by an Abbess instead of an Abbot
<@SLViehl> yeah, but then the defenders would all be throwing up, Fredrick
<jebbo> The defenders aren't actually the ones kiling the attackers. All that is happening is that the attackers attacks are bein reflected onto them
<Anne_Marble> Maybe the farms and fields are out there...
<Fredrick> Do you have dragons? Maybe the castle is made out of dragon scales and can't be penetrated.
<Nathan> Ganag? You know Alderrarian dialect? I thought I was the only one
<Anne_Marble> Frederick, that sounds like that ride on the news recently. :-/
<Dani> Holy relic is outside the walls, the defenders can't risk it's destruction
<Charles> Ip Ganag Tro Makus slij, Nathan.
<jebbo> i.e. there are zero defenders, just an mirror that deflects attacks back to the attacker
<BarGnat> The defenders are the bad guys, right?
<@SLViehl> neat, jebbo
<Kay> The zen religious institution which is the castle hasn't caused any of the casualties, and they don't need to do anything to assure the annihilation of the attacking force, because, due to the rule of 3, once 1/3 of the attackers had perished by their own blows, the rest o fthe attackers will die of the magical wounds inflicted.
<RobertOnCloud9> The defenders all quietly left by their secret entrances half an hour ago leaving a lot of death traps.
<beard5> vicious Robert
<Kay> Very evilly good Robert. I like!
<RobertOnCloud9> And horrible tableaux of dead hostages tortured creatively.
<Dani> The defenders think its funnier leaving them alive
<beard5> I like it
<Charles> The Defenders are Dr. Strange, Namor, and the Hulk.
<beard5> ::SNORK::
<Fredrick> Maybe the castle has several mirror castles and only one is the real one. Every time they attack, the fake castle disappears and two more appear in its place.
<RobertOnCloud9> Hulk not defend. Hulk attack!
<jebbo> Hulk split sihrts!
<jebbo> shirts!
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Jaye?
<Charles> Hulk smash puny spear men!
<@SLViehl> You've only got about a thousand possibilities here, so have fun picking, Jaye...
<RobertOnCloud9> There's a lot you can do with this depending on your backstory but I'd like to see horror and an ironic twist.
<Anne_Marble> And Namor sneers at the humans.
<Fredrick> Maybe the castle is like a big kite, attached to a line. And the line is covered with poison and spikes and they can't chop it down.
<James> They could be waiting for the right time so news of the destruction of the attackers will reach another army at a particular time, to demoralize that army's attack.
<Anon_3> Sorry, the thingy got dumped and I had to reload!!!
<Dani> Something that reflects the values of the defenders.
<Charles> Dr. Strange just wishes he'd joined the Avengers instead
<Nathan> Hulk?
<@SLViehl> A full transcript will be posted on the transcript board immediately following the session, everyone
<RobertOnCloud9> Castle is a large carnivorous plant cleverly mimicking a castle, it ate the defenders and will now digest any attackers who get in.
<Fredrick> The defenders are the wives of the attacking generals.
<jebbo> Big green guy; adverse reaction to radiation
<Nathan> Yeah...go Avengers...heh, heh
<Fredrick> And they don't want to P.O. their wives
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for the great siege ideas -- let's take a five minute break now, then we'll put Kay on the spot.
<Jaye> Well, bugger! Is there somewhere I can get a transcript? Fate is having a snicker at me and I lost everything.
<RobertOnCloud9> Prominent scientist with an anger management problem seeks wardrobe
<RobertOnCloud9> Changing of the Transcript!
<@SLViehl> I post a full transcript on the transcript board after every TT, Jaye, no worries.
<Jaye> Thank Cod!
<BJ Steeves> If Sheila can get one!
<@SLViehl> Got half so far, anyway
<Charles> Another fish joke! You're maing me eel.
<beard5> Jaye, I've also got everything copied
<Kay> Robert,don't miss a morsel of this piscene epic!
<@SLViehl> I'm going to run for tea -- brb
<Fredrick> I was watching a Xena episode the other night and it was inadverently hysterical.
<RobertOnCloud9> Yes, first half canned
<Nathan> Me Too, Jaye
<beard5> I think sheila is just running from the fish jokes
<RobertOnCloud9> Even if we're packing the conference room like sardines
<BarGnat> uncle!
<Charles> There's no porpoise to this
<Nathan> These jokes seem a bit...fishy
<Sarah-the-invisible> Don't mention fish! We just had a huge fight about NOT putting them on the pizza!
<Nathan> And corny, and greecey
<Nicosian> I should say something, just for the halibut.
<Charles> You're giving me a haddock
<Nathan> Actually, not verry greecey
<BJ Steeves> Just a fluke.
<Nathan> Are we on brake?
<BarGnat> bursts into tears... groaning and snarfing
<Kae> I just tuna'd in and found this going on.
<beard5> it's a little roughie in here
<Nathan> ping
<Nicosian> salmon ought to put a stop to this.
<beard5> pong
<@SLViehl> you guys are making me hungry
<Dani> I try and think of a pun, and I just clam up
<RobertOnCloud9> That's a fin thing to say
<Nathan> Are we on brake??
<Kae> What a whale of a joke!
<@SLViehl> (dreaming of fish and rice)
<Charles> I'm hooked
<BarGnat> lol
<beard5> and pickled ginger
<Anne_Marble> Frederick: I think a lot of the Xena episodes were "Vertently hysterical."
<Sarah-the-invisible> You guys are so good at this, it's scary. Now a society who can only speak in puns.... hmm....
<Fredrick> I just had another idea for that siege. The enemy bought defective catapults and they end up crushing the troops instead of the castle.
<Nathan> (Hoping evvyone will quite joking and answer my question) Are we on brake?
<Dani> (Casting around for another fish idea on the fly)
<BJ Steeves> Who baited this group on these jokes anyway?
<Sarah-the-invisible> Yes, Nathan.
<Nathan> Thank you!
<Sarah-the-invisible> You're welcome.
<@SLViehl> I reely don't know, BJ
<Fredrick> A character says she's a goddess and she wants to kill Gabrielle. Yet I wonder why she didn't just wave her hands.
<Anne_Marble> Ironically, I'm cooking cream of crab soup now...
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Charles> What a line!
<Fredrick> And why do goddess have such bad aim when they fling lightning?
<Charles> Now we're just trolling for puns
<BJ Steeves> We should string the up on a line then.
<BJ Steeves> them
<@SLViehl> Goddesses are notoriously near-sighted, Fredrick
<Anne_Marble> too much ambrosia?
<Nathan> BRB...going to eat dinner
<jebbo> I was just trying to decide what to cook over the weekend. I've decided it has to be fish pie
<Dani> Jaye, it was Jaye and her clenched fish!
<@SLViehl> wall-eyed, you might say
<steven> we must be hooked
<Nicosian> flunked lightning flinging school?
<Fredrick> Don't they have prescription lenses?
<Kay> look out Athena's aim, and Diana's was always pretty good
<@SLViehl> brb -- kettle's shrieking
<beard5> Robert, you've changed!
<Dani> Where's your cloud gone?
<Fredrick> I was laughing my head off when the goddess said she wanted to kill Gabrielle with a knife? Right.
<RobertAndAri> I've got the traditional cat on my lap now.
<Dani> Oh yeah, that knife-fighting goddess...
<Nicosian> he fell off his cloud.
<BarGnat> purrr, Ari
<Kay> And since your head was already off, no goddess took revenge.
<Fredrick> But of course she used her powers to kill men.
<beard5> I still like the Xena episode where she's pushing around this cart of fish
<Dani> LOL Robert
<@SLViehl> last call for beverages/bathroom breaks/snacks/snitching some of Anne's soup
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Now you're making ME hungry! Croissants...
<Anne_Marble> My soup is still defrosting.
<Kay> is it SHE crab soup Anne?
<Anne_Marble> I didn't peek.
<Fredrick> I'm like thanks. Why do men deserve to be killed with lightning bolts and neck cracking, but women get the honor of knives and tornadoes.
<Sarah-the-invisible> Wow, Elysium is now 120,458 words....
<@SLViehl> is there any other kind, Kay? (native Marylander speaking)
<Nicosian> less mess that way?
<Jaye> You think it's an honour?
<Kay> You're so respectful of the privacy of others!
<@SLViehl> Because we like to see men catch on fire, Fredrick
<Jaye> At least lightening and neck cracking is quick!
<beard5> remind me not to irritate Sheila
<@SLViehl> lol beard
<Fredrick> I'm more for equal opportunity assassinations.
<Kay> Because you guys are so hot, Frederick
<Charles> hunk of burning love?
<jebbo> Good soup always involves fish and aioli
<Kay> You said it.
<Jaye> lol!!!
<beard5> hunka, hunka burning love ::sing off key::
<Charles> Elvis has left the building
<@SLViehl> Okay, group (snapping whip) back to work -- Kay, you're up, Mary, you're after Kay
<Jaye> that's not 'love' its lurve.
<Fredrick> I wouldn't mind a fishtality or two.
<Kay> Trolls. I want to know about trolls. Please tell me all you know or have heard about trolls of any kind, whether or not related to the three billy goats gruff. Size, powers, habitat, clothing, myth sources, amusements, history, origins, feeding habits and interaction with magical or psychic phenomena, references on trolls, books about trolls & etc.
<Fredrick> Cod at ten paces.
<Kay> Trolls.
<Jaye> That's pike at ten paces.
<BJ Steeves> Sunlight turns then to stone.
<Dani> I read something once that said their usual means of movement was rolling. Also, they're averse to churchyards.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Trolls inhabit bars at four in the morning and no one goes home with them.
<@SLViehl> small, nasty-tempered, bearded, horders
<@SLViehl> tunnel-lovers.
<Nicosian> I used to work for some.
<BarGnat> I did a search on the net not too long ago on trolls, Kay.... lots of info there
<@SLViehl> I was married to one
<Fredrick> Live under bridges, from Ray Bradbury's story.
<beard5> I resent the bearded part
<Nathan> Tolkien wrote a book 'bout 'em, I think
<Dani> Scandinavian in origin??
<RobertHappyAsAClam> They eat people, at least the bridge kind do.
<Jaye> Mountain trolls, large, tough skinned, beats up people with trees, not very bright.
<jebbo> Trolls. Traditional norse trolls . . . sure there's loads of Old Norse based fantasy that talks about them
<Charles> they're Norse in origin. Mentioned in the Eddas. Best source for original trolls probably Bullfinch
<JamesI'm> I'm a dud at trolls -- except the Lord of the Rings thing, made in mockery of Ents.
<jebbo> Tolkein trolls turn to stine in sunlight
<Dani> Folklore books on Scandinavian folklore usually mention them.
<Fredrick> What's the difference between an ogre and a troll?
<BarGnat> they vary in every particular, depending on whose myths you're reading
<Kay> any myths or info appreciated
<@SLViehl> I liked the troll in Snow-White and Rose-Red (the original fairy tale) He got what was coming to him.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Ethnicity and what the author says about it.
<Kay> parentage?
<Jaye> What about a book on mythology? I use the encyclopedia of Mythology by Larousse, edited by Rober Graves...
<Kay> Hobbies?
<Nicosian> ogres bigger?
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Trolls usually eat people. Trolls in D&D regenerate and if you cut one up it's cool like a hydra, you get more than one from the pieces.
<Fredrick> Macrame?
<@SLViehl> (digging through the books here)
<Kay> good.
<Jaye> I also use the Classical Dictionary for quick reference.
<Kay> Are trolls edible or poisonous
<Fredrick> Can trolls and humans intermarry?
<Kay> what do they look like?
<Kay> How tall?
<BarGnat> up to you, if you're the author
<Kay> male and female?
<Nicosian> that's one family reunion I'd hate to be at!
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Trolls in White Wolf's "Changeling" are a blue large half handsome race of fae who are very honorable but sort of maligned.
<beard5> Frederick, yes they can the offspring are monstrous
<Dani> Depends if you want to be tradtional, or want to add your own twists
<Kay> Looking for anything anyone's heard and all rumours are welcome
<Kay> what can't they do?
<Kay> Magic?
<jebbo> Swim
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Big, blue and vengeful, sort of like Jorenians.
<Kay> I'l add my own twists, but i had t come up with a question
<Dani> They don't like Christianity, can be repelled by holy places/people
<beard5> Kay, also check out the Viking Answer Lady on the web
<BarGnat> Last one I read anything about had created and enslaved a bunch of zombies
<beard5> ::SNORK!!::
<Kay> Vikings?! sounds like a good source
<Jaye> They can take the colour of their surroundings, like chameleons.
<@SLViehl> nothing in my mythology books, but mine are all pretty obscure...
<Jaye> Rock trolls, mountain trolls, sand trolls...
<BarGnat> cave trolls
<Dani> I know where there's a book with some stuff in it, but I don't have the book with me, sorry
<@SLViehl> I had a story with frog trolls in it.
<Kay> sokay. anyone know how long they live?
<Charles> kay, I'm looking at Giants, Monsters and Dragons by Carol Rose. Two pages of info on Trolls and 400 pages of every other monter in myth $17.95 at amazon
<BJ Steeves> Highway trolls...50 cents please.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> That's a way to avoid inconsistency with myth - invent many kinds of trolls. Some are immortal.
<Jaye> Look up Teutonic Mythology..
<Kay> ooo BJ!!
<beard5> Kay, I've got some stuff on the norse trolls, but I can't find it at the moment
<@SLViehl> wicked, BJ
<Kaelle2> lol BJ
<beard5> friends tidied up the library
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Troll booths at SCA events see if you paid up for the event. This may have been an old joke and tollbooths with mean tolltakers could've added to legend of bridges.
<Fredrick> brb
<Nathan> Back
<Kay> that's good Robert, thanks!
<@SLViehl> Money seems to be important to all trolls, from what I've seen/read
<beard5> why do you need trolls?
<Kay> gold hoarders, similar to leprechans
<Nathan> (Assuming we're still talking 'bout trolls) Google it
<Jaye> Laurel K Hamilton deals with trolls in one of her books. She does a lot of research.
<Kay> because i'm going to create some, and I needed a question
<@SLViehl> the pack rats of the faerie kingdom
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Bridges seem to come into it in most stories and maybe it does relate to gangs of bandits that charged tolls - or storytellers raising stakes on same.
<jebbo> There's a series of Norse myth inspired fantasies with titles like The Elves and the Ottarskin, The Sword and the Satchel which features fairly accurate Norse trolls but I can't think of the author off-hand
<beard5> umm..not so much hoarders, if I remember properly, more like demented dwarves
<Kay> mine never pan out, and always seem to run out of ideas before out of time, but i do my best
<Kay> I'll pass next week
<Charles> Trolls are scandinavian in origin they were originally described as vast ugly hairy giants, but some regions they are degraded to a smaller and often dwarf like size
<Jaye> Elizabeth Boyer
<Kay> Thanks all this is helping,
<jebbo> That's the one
<Kay> thanks!
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Yes, those troll toys with all the hair ARE scandinavian in origin.
<beard5> Kay, I'll see you on chat, remind me about this
<Nathan> As I said, I think one of the Tolkiens wrote a book about trolls
<@SLViehl> what I'd try is something away from the standard model troll -- have some fun with it, Kay
<beard5> and I'll look it up for you
<Charles> They lived in communities under the hills, in barrows and long earthworks
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Kay?
<BarGnat> Basically, Kay, you can make them look just about any way you want and there'll be something somewhere to back you up
<Kay> i plan to, but when you're creating, it's good to know the background
<Jaye> Search the Internet.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Keep the "bridges" thing, everyone knows that.
<jebbo> Charles> that's hobbits
<Charles> Trolls hate noise and have been driven away from places by church bells
<Nathan> google it...yahho it...etc
<@SLViehl> I'd pick troll-type creatures from exotic myths and play with the archetype -- give the reader a whole new kind of troll
<Kay> Thanks everyone!!! I appreciate the brainstorming!
<Nathan> They eat hobbits
<Fredrick> Hi, I'm back
<James> If creating a race of them, it seems to me good to choose a single iconic feature of trolls to give yours, to link them to the myth, then twist everything else for freshness.
<jebbo> Try a troll as the POV character
<BarGnat> wb, Fredrick
<Fredrick> What about tropical trolls?
<Charles> In iceland the trolls are malicious one eyed giants
<Charles> I'm just coyong out of the book, jebbo
<Jaye> That's Atrolls....
<Fredrick> Thank you, Bargnat.
<Nathan> you mean cyclop's
<@SLViehl> thanks all, BarGnat, you're up, BJ, you're after BarGnat
<Nicosian> tropical troll in a speedo?
<Jaye> lol!
<beard5> speedon't
<Fredrick> Trollathon.
<Kaelle> snarf
<BarGnat> My question shouldn't take long
<@SLViehl> hand it over, Mary
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Wedding music at Trollhagen?
<BarGnat> In chat the other day, June described four types of critique -- vaguely recalled, they included the ego crit, the structural crit, the line-edit crit, and something else
<Charles> Alos known as Trowls, Trold, Trolld, Sjotrol
<BJ Steeves> My turn? Already?....Where can I find good references on stuff like star locations,etc..... I have some but I need to fill in the "holes".
<Kay> the pro crit
<@SLViehl> Hang on, BJ, you're after Mary. It was just a warning
<jebbo> BJ> wait a bit
<BarGnat> Cato would not let me cut and paste, so I no longer have the info
<BJ Steeves> Sorry.
<BarGnat> That's it! Thanks, Kay
<@SLViehl> No problem, Bj, it scrolls fast
<beard5> bargnat the 1)bolstering crit just need someone to say nice job
<BarGnat> and what did the structural crit consist of?
<@SLViehl> technical composition, I'd imagine
<beard5> 2)structural, does the story hang together
<BarGnat> Someone has requested such a crit from me....
<beard5> any gaffs of continuity
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Sounds like "Your plot needs more conflict. Add a scene with naked women and guns"
<Jaye> Or naked men and flowers.
<Dani> (Or naked fish.)
<BarGnat> Not the kind of crit to say "not enough direct discourse"?
<steven> if it doesn't hang together, it'll assuredly hang separately...
<Fredrick> Or naked guns and loaded women.
<@SLViehl> So is your question how do you give a structural crit, Mary?
<James> Is is someone you'd be comfortable asking for more information about what they expect? Might save some trouble for you just to ask.
<@SLViehl> good point, James
<BarGnat> Yes, basically, Sheila.
<Charles> Your story is orginal and interesting. But the parts that are orginal are not interesting and the parts that are interesting are not original.
<BarGnat> She wants exactly the sort of structural crit that June described
<RobertHappyAsAClam> There should've been something about the misplaced crit
<beard5> Mary, I wish I had copied that particular chat also
<@SLViehl> Technical composition is all about craft. How you present the story, not the actual content
<Nicosian> misplaced crit?
<Kay> 1. The 'bolstering' critique -- look, you are nervous about your writing and you want praise. A few comments about 'strengthening' is cool, but you do NOT want to be cut up.
<BarGnat> would comments about direct discourse or the lack thereof be out of ;place?
<Kay> 2. The 'structural' critique -- you want to know if the 'bones' of the work are good. Characterization, plot, theme, etc. You aren't looking to have nits picked.
<jebbo> There's a template out there for crits that talks about "First Impressions", "Plot" "Characters", "dialogue" etc
<@SLViehl> Some of the things I'd look at are POV, flow, transition, scene balance, that sort of stuff
<beard5> Kay, you've got it, great memory!!
<BarGnat> Okay, that helps
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Your horror story is too scary, your romance is too mushy, your SF too weird and didn't explain enough weird stuff with As You Know Bob, your fantasy story the magic doesn' twork like TOkein so it must be wrong.
<Dani> Pacing, too?
<BarGnat> Yes, that's what June said
<@SLViehl> Oh, wait, there is a crit template for FM
<BarGnat> Thank you, Kay
<Kay> 3. The 'line edit' critique -- you don't want to change the basic structure. Either you've already been through the structural crit process, or you know you won't change it anyway. Grammar errors, weird sentence structure, phrasing, etc.
<jebbo> I seem to remember Jim Mills and Bob Billing follow the format so look at any of their crits
<Charles> Put weather in.
<Kay> 4. The 'pro' critique -- you are now under deadline. You need someone to look over your work before you send it off. The person you pick has a basic idea of what you agreed to send your editor. You need verification of structure and such, and some line editing. But you want it technical and you need it Last Thursday!
<Dani> This is useful stuff, Kay!! Thanks
<BarGnat> I have a copy of the template, thanks
<Kay> Cato did let me cut and paste because i used control c and control v
<Kay> Robert taught me that.
<BarGnat> He wouldn'
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Oh thanks. I thought the Pro crit was "yoru editor is paying you to make these changes."
<beard5> Kay, you are a wonder!
<beard5> Thank you, I needed that also
<BarGnat> I tried.
<Kay> no, i just grabbed it as june said it the otehr day and really liked it
<BarGnat> but cato hates me
<beard5> cato hates everyone
<@SLViehl> Cato hates everybody
<Kay> Robert had cued me in on how to cut and paste when you cant use buttons and have to use keyboard controls.
<jebbo> The computer is your friend . . . but Cato hates you!
<BarGnat> So, I did remember correctly? June didn't mention things like direct discourse?
<Nathan> Ditto BG, Beard, Sheila
<Kay> No, she didn't but i think that it is a structural matter whether one uses too little dialog or not enough description.
<beard5> Mary, if you feel it is an issue, I would bring it up.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for Mary?
<beard5> the writer may not notice there's no dialogue
<BarGnat> thanks everyone
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Guess structural is when you add or cut stuff and line editing is the littler tucks.
<@SLViehl> I think James suggesting asking the person you're critting -- may help, Mary
<BarGnat> especially you, Kay... you genius!
<Dani> thanks, Kay!
<@SLViehl> suggesting=suggested
<@SLViehl> Kay is our Site Goddess
<Kay> If someone has asked for a structural crit, and has gone into teaching mode and is telling instead of showing, then they need the opportunity to know that so that they can decide if that's what they want to do.
<Kay> (blushes and hides under couch)
<BarGnat> Okay... I'll mention it, then
<BarGnat> thanks again
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for great suggestions -- BJ, you're up, and then beard, you'll be after BJ
<Dani> It really IS BJ's turn now
<Anne_Marble> Poor BJ
<BJ Steeves> OK< OK...
<BJ Steeves> Where can I find good references on stuff like star locations,etc..... I have some but I need to fill in the "holes".
<Fredrick> Which stars?
<Jaye> Nasa?
<BJ Steeves> All of them!
<Nicosian> I have a few links i can email you.
<Fredrick> www.nasa.gov
<Sarah-the-invisible> University Astronomy Departments
<Jaye> Observatory sites?
<Anne_Marble> Streetcorner vendors in Hollywood.
<Nicosian> unusual star names, etc.
<beard5> NASA and the government documents section in your library
<Nathan> http://www.nasa.gov
<Fredrick> Tau Ceti
<James> 3D stuff, position relative to each other -- or 2D stuff, location in the sky?
<Anne_Marble> Isn't there a stars.com? It's commercial, though, so NASA might be better.
<Nathan> or is it com?
<Fredrick> Sirius
<Nathan> Google
<jebbo> There's a site that specialises in "The Hundred Nearest Stars"
<Fredrick> Vega
<@SLViehl> I use a little plastic wheel thing I bought at Toys R Us, BJ -- my son and I use it with our telescope. I think it cost $3.99
<Fredrick> Does it have to be in this galaxy?
<Anne_Marble> Nasa is probably a .gov. If you type .com, you probably end up at something nasty.
<@SLViehl> (sticking her fingers in her ears so she doesn't have to hear the "N" word)
<Nathan> Google.com
<RobertHappyAsAClam> NASAlspray
<BJ Steeves> Not necessarily this galaxy.
<Nathan> n word?
<James> There are, for instance, standard star catalogues that you can almost certainly get through your local library (even if they resort to interlibrary loan to get it).
<beard5> BJ, your local library should be able to tell you where the nearest Government Document
<beard5> depository is
<@SLViehl> NASA, Nathan (spitting on ground)
<Fredrick> Astronomy magazines might be able to help.
<jebbo> try http://joy.chara.gsu.edu/RECONS/TOP100.htm
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Sheila's very critical of the American space program.
<Nathan> What's wrong with NASA?
<@SLViehl> The wheel thing is called the Star Locator.
<jebbo> CJ Cherryh's site also has some resources
<@SLViehl> It would take several hours to explain, Nathan
<Charles> The local barnes & Noble has a great astronomy section in their Science area
<beard5> In NH, it's at UNH on the third floor of the new library, and the star charts are located directly acrosss
<Nathan> I have plenty of time
<jebbo> There is also a site that works out the shortest routes between stars
<Kay> http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Read her blog on it, Nathan, because she makes a lot of good points and I like seeing things from both sides.
<Nathan>
<beard5> from the door of documents room
<James> Actually, the resources pages of SFWA might have some references, as well.
<Nathan> Okay...I'll try to remember
<beard5> the books are about 2 feet by a foot and a half
<Kay> http://www.seds.org/messier/
<Sarah-the-invisible> I bet you anything it's on Robert Sawyer's site somewhere....
<beard5> they are quite large
<Nicosian> www.obliquity.com/skyeye/misc/name.html unusual star names, with maps!
<BJ Steeves> NASA I thought od but the SFWA I missed!
<@SLViehl> I'm trying to remember if Space.com had any good links -- I usually check them
<jebbo> NASA isn't actually a good place to find this stuff
<Kay> www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/
<jebbo> Search for "Gleise" as well
<beard5> Yes I was a cataloger at that library, yes I cataloged those mammoth books
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, isn't the NASA site slow?
<Charles> Shouldn't there be a StarFish joke here somewhere?
<jebbo> for the nearest planets, you want the "Extrasolar Planets Encyclopedia"
<Kay> http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/
<James> The SFWA site has a lot of science and info sites listed, as I recall. It's been a while since I looked.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Charles, you're just fishing for groans.
<BJ Steeves> What do you think about museum sites? Hayden planetarium is part of the Museum of Natural History in NY.
<Nicosian> www.ras.calgary.ca/~gibson/starnames/
<Nicosian> also has many links. I use those two quite often.
<James> Maybe also the setiathome site? Big maybe. Can't recall its URL, althought it contains setiathome...
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Planetarium sites might have stuff
<@SLViehl> Planetariums probably have some great books available to buy, BJ. I know ours has a great shop.
<Jaye> Charles isn't looking for groans, he's just balancing the scales...
<jebbo> What do you want to get out of the catalogue? Routes between stars? Names of stars? Planets? or somnething else?
<Charles> Robert, they have them at the Planaquarium
<Kay> if you're near a planetarium, going to a show might be good.
<Kaelle> <groan at Jaye>
<BJ Steeves> Jebbo...All of the above.
<beard5> seti at home has no charts that I've been able to find
<@SLViehl> And if you need to know about a binary star system 14 light years from earth, please, come see me
<jebbo> Most stars have boring names like Gleise 457
<James> Ah -- setiathome was a longshot and I knew it
<Nathan> Binary star system? Huh?
<Kay> this is going to be a great resource transcript, as well as a hilarious one!
<RobertHappyAsAClam> guess the setiaceans navigate by sonar, not pictures.
<Nicosian> the obliquity site has some neat names.
<jebbo> for routes, start at Cherryh's home page -- she has links (I think) to a site that will show routes between some of the nearest stars
<Fredrick> Not all stars. I like Tau Ceti, Sirius, Orion.
<steven> binary star system=system with two stars.
<steven> like tattooine - two suns.
<Kaelle> Rofl, Robert
<@SLViehl> Yes, Nathan, and I messed it up royally in my first book.
<Nicosian> SPF 100 please!
<Charles> Steve Douglas had three suns
<@SLViehl> (what I get for thinking I was safe, no one would actually CHECK)
<jebbo> Sounds like Gleise 244 to me
<Fredrick> I really liked in the movie version of Contact when Ellie went through the wormhole and saw the four-sun star system.
<steven> lol Sheila.
<Jaye> That sounds like a gravitational anomaly, three suns?
<jebbo> maybe gleise 65
<James> No one worth worrying about would check, Sheila.
<@SLViehl> time -- any last comments, suggestions for BJ?
<Charles> Well he didn't count Earnie
<Nathan> :Jebbo: Yes, actually, I have. I mean why name something Orion when you can name it something great like....um....Johnathan Archer...or luke skywalker..or david hassid...or Aragorn
<@SLViehl> Space.com checked, James. And wrote an article on it.
<Fredrick> Are you also counting black holes, nebulae and neutron stars?
<James> For heaven's sake, if you set a book in the 1950s, no one's going to panic if no one with your character's name lived then and there, but in SF, lookout!
<Charles> i named a crater on Mars Carthoris when I was in grade school. Won a contest
<jebbo> Don't use "Groombridge 34" I have a short with that title
<@SLViehl> I like my little plastic wheel thing, BJ. It may be cheap and not very glamorous, but my son and I always find the stars with it.
<BarGnat> National Geographic had a site under "Star Journey" with star charts from the Hubbel telescope
<Nathan> Cool charles
<BJ Steeves> Frederick, those too
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for some great resource suggestions -- beard, you're up, Danielle, you'll be after beard
<BarGnat> A search for star charts should bring it up
<Fredrick> I might suggest Robert Forward's Dragon Egg if you haven't read it. Rather dry, but fascinating look at life on a neutron star.
<BJ Steeves> Super stuff all! The Think Tank Commandos do it again!
<beard5> No question tonight just soaking up the ambience like a sponge
<@SLViehl> Hoo-ya (flexing biceps)
<beard5> so I pass thanks
<Kaelle> We Fight Crime!
<Nathan> You are welcome
<@SLViehl> no problem, beard -- Dani, got a question for us?
<Dani> Yup, here goes.
<Dani> I'm new to novel writing does anyone have any tips on how to manage a cast of multiple characters, so that no one gets left out of dialogue and action for too long from chapter to chapter? Sometimes I feel like I'm ignoring the 'sidekick' characters when the MC is busy doing something, and everything is from her POV.
<jebbo> One thing to beware of is the relative velocity of stars; most are receding from us at some 50 to 100 km per second!
<Jaye> Make up a database of all your characters.
<@SLViehl> Oh, excellent question
<RobertHappyAsAClam> I think it's okay to do that. I never hear complaints about "sidekicks don't get enough airtime"
<beard5> Dani, I've made a calendar of all my characters and what they are doing in my WIP
<@SLViehl> I always give the characters a reason to be together in a scene -- I don't stage them alone a whole lot
<jebbo> I think it is a problem to try and give too many characters equal air-time
<beard5> that way there are no annoying gaps
<Jaye> Have your sidekick doing something else, or gaping, sleeping...
<Dani> There aren't a huge amount, I just want to juggle their appearances better
<Nathan> I know how you feel Dani...my solution...only have 2 or 3 characters
<Anne_Marble> Read what other authors do and dogear the pages where you think it works -- or where it sucks.
<Fredrick> Not every character should have equal air time, I think.
<Sarah-the-invisible> I have a list of my characters at each location, and their relative importance. The ones closest to the MC get more scenes.
<Nathan> in a scene
<@SLViehl> Outlining how the characters appear might help
<Dani> No, agreed, Fredrick
<@SLViehl> how and when, I mean
<Nathan> sorry
<Fredrick> Spear carriers should stay in the background and sidekicks should only pop up when needed.
<@SLViehl> How many main (important to the plot) characters do you have, Danielle?
<Dani> 1 MC, and maybe 2 or 3 others?
<James> Sheila has an outlining method posted on Forward Motion somewhere that forces you to consider how each event influences each character and how they then react.
<Kaelle> I read some advice that said that each char. has a life, so keep in mind what they're doing or not doing, and ajust that to the scene.
<Kaelle> ajust =adjust
<James> Is it on the transcript board, Sheila, or am I going mad?
<beard5> Danielle, if you plot out what they are all doing as the main events are happening, you get
<@SLViehl> No, you're sane, James -- but I think it's on the Class Sign-up board
<beard5> to discover what your characters are like
<Charles> I just keep a list on my desk and glance at it from time to time. If I have a 'tag' for the character I write that beside their name
<Fredrick> If the character is a red shirt, I'd suggest not developing him or her too much.
<Dani> I'm sometimes aware of her main sidekick just in effect standing around, if that makes sense. But he's her bodyguard, so he might be just standing around anyway.
<@SLViehl> The single-novel plotting template has the most character-intensive outlining schematic, if you want to take a look at that one, Danielle
<Dani> Thanks, James
<beard5> I have one of those, he gets gnawed to death
<James> Ah -- I knew it was on a class board. I've used it and been happy with the results, so it's worth tracking down.
<Anne_Marble> I hate it when a character gets lots and lots of screen time in a movie and then dies 15 minutes into the movie.
<Dani> Thanks, Sheila, those transcripts are always good help
<beard5> Dani, you might want to indicate the bodyguards presence by showing body language
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Bodyguards do that and sometimes get forgotten about and overhear important stuff.
<@SLViehl> Even if your sidekick doesn't have a lot of physical action, he/she may argue with the MC, get in the way, create a problem, etc.
<Fredrick> Nobody wants to invest sympathy in a spear carrier, only to see him or her chewed up or impaled five minutes after meeting him or her.
<James> And you can always spot 'em, Anne -- they talk about their family, their children, their pet goldfish...
<Sarah-the-invisible> Although if I'm planning on offing a character, I do spend a little more time proving how wonderful he or she is to the reader...
<Kaelle> Holly's and Sheila's templates are very useful and helpful.
<Fredrick> Or should I say empathy.
<jebbo> My feeling is that one character should get > 50% of the air-time; the rest must timeshare. Otherwise you don't have a character for the reader to identify with
<Charles> I enjoy writing banter sort of dialogue, snappy patter. So itend to have my MC talk to his sidekicks alot. keeps them in my mind.
<@SLViehl> It's good to chew them up at the end of a book, though
<Anne_Marble> And they emote. I. Am. The. Best. Friend.
<@SLViehl> Arguments are always fun to write.
<Dani> Jebbo, the whole thing comes from one character's POV, so just trying to fit the others around that
<Nathan> Agreed
<James> Oh yes, they're Best Friend blue eyes misting up just as the alien bites their head off. Sigh.
<Kay> Especially when you're angry yourself, arguments are fun to write!
<Dani> Charles, me too! That's the intention, anyway
<RobertHappyAsAClam> In my freeform plotting sometimes I let them decide if they're important later or not.
<Fredrick> Not always. Sometimes I end up in a temporal loop and characters just keep repeating themselves. Then I need to cut.
<Anne_Marble> You can always give the more important secondary characters traits like a silly habit. Like the guy with the rubberbands in "The Verdict."
<Sarah-the-invisible> And sometimes minor characters sneak up on you and start stealing scenes.
<@SLViehl> I have to keep myself from killing off the hero in every book. Inevitably, he gets badly wounded....
<Nicosian> Had that happen.
<beard5> Sarah, yeah they do.
<Nicosian> a scene stealer.
<@SLViehl> Amen, Sarah
<jebbo> Every now and again a spear carrier will insist on a starring role Beat them down unmercifully!
<Fredrick> I don't like developing minor characters too much, otherwise they take light off the protag.
<Anne_Marble> Yeah, ain't that the truth. Jupe and his darned apple.
<Kay> or give them their own book where they won't be fouling up the works
<Dani> I like ensemble casts a lot, though
<Nicosian> this one can stay. I may need him later anyway.
<Charles> Well, just give them a reason to talk then Dani. Robert parker's character Spenser has a pal Hawk whom he talks to all the time in the books. makes for easy expostion and it helps define Spenser
<@SLViehl> Oh, I don't know, jebbo. A couple of those spear carriers have turned out to be pretty interesting chiefs for me....
<Fredrick> Like movies. No one went to see Gladiator for Oliver Reed. They went for Russell Crowe.
<@SLViehl> Russell Crowe in a short skirt, no less.
<Dani> I went for Joaquin Phoenix, actually (g)
<Jaye> <drool, drool>
<Fredrick> All right, maybe a few. But my point is that the protagonsit should usually be the focal point and get the best lines.
<Fredrick> And the most time in the story.
<jebbo> Oh yes, the uppity spear carrier is often great but audition them Some are just uppity others have talent
<Fredrick> If there are multiple protags, then it helps to split time equally. But inevitably one character is going to get the most time.
<James> Look, you lot, there is nothing special about Russell Crowe. If you're going to worship an Australian, may I draw your attention to Cate Blanchett.
<Dani> Charles, sounds good.
<Fredrick> Geoffrey Rush.
<Nicosian> works for me.
<Fredrick> Or is he English.
<@SLViehl> Sorry James, I've seen her in a short skirt. Doesn't do a thing for me.
<Fredrick> I like Guy Pearce.
<Jaye> Mel Gibson
<Dani> Heath Ledger!
<Sarah-the-invisible> Amen, Dani!
<James> No, he's ours, Fredrick.
<Charles> Also you may actually hava a'team' like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser in Fritz Lieber's books. They both got good lines though usually one more tha the other from story to story
<Fredrick> Mel Gibson was born in New York
<Kay> sorry y'all, gotta slip out have a great evening! Good night.
<James> She'd have been a better Gladiator, Sheila
<@SLViehl> Night, Kay
<Nathan> Bye Kay
<Jaye> Night Kay
<Sarah-the-invisible> Night Kay!
<James> See you, Kay.
<BarGnat> Night, Kay
<Nicosian> gnite kay!
<beard5> Night, Kay, see you later
<BarGnat> Thanks again
<RobertHappyAsAClam> G'night Kay! Happy writing!
<Fredrick> Good night.
<Jaye> So he was born there, he's ours now!
<Dani> Yeah, Charles, I have a flippant sidekick, but he gets sidelined sometimes. Sounds like maybe that's not as much of a problem as I thought.
<Charles> Some of my favorite books, Dani. parker is a master of dialogue. Spenser gets most of the good lines but he never scrimps on his secondary characters either
<Dani> I'll look him up!
<@SLViehl> Another way to check on your balance is to do page counts, Danielle -- how many pages are devoted to which characters. See how often they pop up -- or don't.
<James> Australia is like the Borg -- once you touch our shores, if you achieve something, you're ours.
<BarGnat> One of my all-time favorites, Dani
<BarGnat> Have all his books
<@SLViehl> I knew you were all a bunch of aliens, James
<Dani> OK, sounds good!
<Jaye> Let
<Nathan> All of whose?
<Dani> (Australia ate my dad
<BarGnat> Robert B. Parker
<Charles> kate Blanchett is australian?
<Jaye> Let's not forget that Keanu Reeves spent some time at a Canberra school.
<James> Mind you, I was calling us Hobbits last week. Borg hobbits. It beggars the imagination!
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Danielle?
<Dani> Writing down the author, now!
<Charles> yes, Robert B. Parker
<BarGnat> hehehe
<Nathan> Isn't Kate Blanchett the girl in Titantic?
<@SLViehl> Keanu (sigh)
<Jaye> That was Kate Winslet, english
<Fredrick> No, Kate Winslet
<Dani> Thanks, y'all. I'll try outlining 'screen-time' and reading Parker.
<Nathan> Keanu Reeves has my same B-day. :D
<Anne_Marble> Colm Feore (sigh)
<James> That was Kate Winslet, Nathan. She did visit Australia, but we don't claim her
<Sarah-the-invisible> Nathan, that's Kate Winslet. Cate Blanchett played Galadriel.
<Fredrick> And give your protagonist the best lines.
<@SLViehl> I'd try plotting out your scenes with character involvement, see how your balance is working out Danielle. And have fun with all your characters, when you can
<Charles> Blanchett, Winslet, I;d be willing to wrestle either. Or both
<Dani> Ta, Fredrick!
<Jaye> Snappy comebacks for the sidekick, though.
<Dani> Oh, definitely, with the fun (g)
<Dani> It's so good having 10 minutes to think up your snappy comebacks!
<@SLViehl> and thanks all for the great ideas, James, you're up, and Steven, you'll be after James.
<James> Charles! You can't wrestle Galadriel. That would be undignified. Or something.
<BarGnat> Dani... if you can find a copy, "Early Autumn" is a good one for your purposes
<Dani> ok, thanks BG, cool
<Charles> Early Autumn is my favotite of them BG
<BarGnat> It's also a great example of painless backstory in a series
<beard5> porpoises
<James> Oh, sorry, Sheila, I'm passing again -- for the same reason. Too little work this week to generate questions.
<@SLViehl> No problem, James -- Steven, got a question for us?
<Fredrick> Antagonist should have best comebacks. Play Khan to Shatner's Kirk.
<Charles> Looking for Rachael Wallace is good too.
<BarGnat> Yes
<BarGnat> very
<Dani> ok, Charles, just searching local library catalogue
<Nathan> That movie was....how shal I say this....70ish
<Nathan> er, seventysish
<Charles> And if you just want action, the Judas Goat
<@SLViehl> Go ahead, Nathan, make me feel old, lol
<Nathan> Or was it 80s
<James> Whoever has the upper hand should get the best lines -- so the recipient gets to laugh last.
<BarGnat> I'm a fan, too, Charles
<Charles> Well no james, I wouldn't wrestle galadrial. Just kate. woof!
<BarGnat> have been for decades
<Fredrick> Luke didn't laugh when Vader cut his hand off.
<Nathan> (I just saw it, 3 weeks ago. I get to see whales tonight. )
<Fredrick> His best line was ahhhhh.
<@SLViehl> Did we lose Steven?
<Charles> Me too. Started reading Parker when I was 18.
<BarGnat> I think Cato got him a while back
<Sarah-the-invisible> Pizza finally arrived! Night all!
<Nathan> Frederick: Yes he did...
<Dani> Crap, no Early Autumn OR Looking for Rachael Wallace
<James> He does seem to be missing. Okay, who's got Steven?
<@SLViehl> Appears we did. Gerri, are you out there?
<Jaye> Night Invisible Sarah...
<beard5> night Sarah,
<Nathan> Bye Sarah-the-invisible
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Night, Sarah! Enjoy the pizza!
<James> See you, Sarah!
<Fredrick> Good night.
<@SLViehl> night Sarah
<Dani> see ya, Sarah!
<BarGnat> I started when Godwulf Manuscript was published. (g)
<Charles> What have they got, dani?
<BJ Steeves> Night Sarh!
<BarGnat> Night, Sarah
<@SLViehl> Looks like Gerri has vamoosed too.
<Kaelle> Night Sarah
<@SLViehl> Which means you're up, Charles -- got a question for us?
<Dani> All Our Yesterdays, Ceremony, Chance
<Charles> Hmmm, No, not at the moment. But thanks
<Dani> 39 titles, all told
<Charles> Ceremony is good
<@SLViehl> Which brings us to Nicosian -- got a question for the group?
<Charles> Pale Kings and Princes
<Nicosian> yeah. I think I do.
<@SLViehl> Sock it to us (she says, in her best 70's voice)
<BarGnat> Stay away from All our Yesterdays
<Charles> A Savage Place
<Charles> Agreeed, BG
<BarGnat> Great book!
<Dani> Thanks, Charles! I'll grab some tomorrow
<Nicosian> My protagonist has made a deal, or is involved in a deal selling info and cargo on the galactic black market, setting up raids from within his own organization.
<Charles> And a line from Cooleridge!
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Cooleridge, inspired by beer, not opium, cheap man's classical half finished poet.
<Nicosian> why would he continue to do this, if it seems he's getting nothing out of the deal?
<@SLViehl> Blackmail -- he has no choice but to do it.
<BJ Steeves> Double Agent.
<Nicosian> I can't figure how he got himself into this mess, nor any way out.
<beard5> is he getting personal satisfaction, but no monetary reward?
<RobertHappyAsAClam> In order to justify massive expendigures on security, raise money for projects he can't make pubilc, embezzle safely.
<Kaelle> Baiting a trap
<James> Or he'll profit from long term events created by what he's doing.
<Fredrick> Embezzlement
<BarGnat> He IS getting something out of it, just not something obvious
<Jaye> He's a wealthy man with a hobby.
<@SLViehl> your MC's family is being held by whoever profits from the raids.
<Fredrick> Trying to get money for his sick sister or daughter.
<Dani> Sabotaging himself, low self-esteem
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Is this a good guy or a sleaze?
<beard5> good Dani
<@SLViehl> Or he's an infiltrator -- set up to get into the raid business as a sting so he can bust everyone
<BarGnat> Revenge... tracking them down from the inside, so to speak
<Nicosian> a good guy in a bad mess.
<Fredrick> Maybe he wants to see the black market fall apart, so he feeds them false info.
<Dani> It was desirable somehow when he started...
<RobertHappyAsAClam> That sounds more like blackmail or something like hostages or infiltrating.
<jebbo> He'll keep doing it as he can't think of anything else to do; the moment anoither opportunity arises he'll snatch it
<BJ Steeves> A family member or friend is a hostage.
<Nicosian> he has the MC being held by the guys he's selling stuff to, he sold her out with the cargo.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> He's in too deep now and being blackmailed.
<James> Maybe they addicted him to something, and only give him what he needs if he reciprocates?
<Charles> A savage place, as holy and enchanted, As e'r beneath a waning moon was haunted by woman wailing for her demon lover!
<Fredrick> denied his promotion.
<@SLViehl> If there's no profit in it for him anymore, then there has to be another motivation
<Fredrick> So he gets back by wrecking the company.
<@SLViehl> What's the alternative to him getting out of the raid business? Or is it like the Mafia, once you're in, it's for life?
<beard5> Nicosian, could it be inertia? He started doing this for personal satisfaction or revenge and has
<Fredrick> His boss cheated on his wife, so he gets back by wrecking his company.
<beard5> become stuck in it
<Nathan> What's the question again?
<jebbo> He's stuck. He made an agreement with a rwal bad guy and has to keep doing it until he can get enough cash together to get out of it
<@SLViehl> like habit, you mean, beard?
<jebbo> real bad guy
<Nicosian> the colonies he supplies were cut off by the copr that set them up in the first place.
<Nicosian> Corp.
<James> Maybe there was profit at the start -- now there's none, he can't back out because he'd go down with the raiders if he turns them in?
<RobertHappyAsAClam> It was blackmail, he gets out later by infiltration and gets off by cooperating.
<beard5> Yeah, stuck in a rut, the same reason people stick with bad jobs because they don't want
<beard5> to go out looking for another
<Fredrick> Nicosian, maybe the problem is that he should gain something from his dealings.
<@SLViehl> afraid of change. That might work
<James> The colonies were set up and then abandoned by his corporation, do you mean?
<Nicosian> James, yes.
<@SLViehl> Maybe there is some ultimate good from the raiding -- starving people get fed, and if he doesn't do it, thousands will die.
<Fredrick> Otherwise, why bother?
<jebbo> Alternatively, he is playing a double game and is trying to infiltrate the bad guys organisation but is really a spy of some kind
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Heavy corporate level debt, if he doesn't bring in the raids income he'll lose the corporation to those worse than he is.
<BarGnat> then the black market could be the only way to help them
<James> So if he disagreed with the decision, he could be doing it to bring down the corporation to open up routes to the colonies again?
<Fredrick> Well drawn flawed heroes need some overriding motivation to commit crimes.
<Fredrick> And to do bad things.
<beard5> boredom
<beard5> that would do it
<Charles> Yeah could be a redemption story, he's sunk as low as he can and can only pull himself out of what he's become by helping others
<Fredrick> If he's bored, why not buy a space yacht?
<jebbo> Hmm . . .set up feels like "Merchanter's Luck" to me. A bit of a loser as protag
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Colonists aren't allowed guns or they might form their own gov't so he smuggles guns to rebels. Then the dopers and slavers got a piece of him.
<Fredrick> Does he commit crimes for the psychological thrill?
<@SLViehl> Maybe it's the only way he'll ever be important -- by running the raiders' ring. Once he's out, he's a nobody again.
<Charles> The okinawan weren't allowed any weapoms whe the japanese took over.
<Jaye> Vanity thy name is man.
<Nicosian> I figured guilt, then he gets himself in too deep when the raiders start getting really greedy.
<BarGnat> Conscience doesn't kick in until he realizes what he's done to the MC?
<Dani> Company belonged to his father, he wants to ruin his father's name, or punish his family
<Fredrick> Maybe he's a racist.
<@SLViehl> Maybe the excitement of committing the crimes was a high at first, and now he's just mainlining and feeling nothing from it.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Dad started the rings and policy and he loses his inheritance if he destroys it.
<Fredrick> And the corporation has leaders who are his ideological enemy.
<James> Or it's an inherited obligation: he doesn't want it, can't get rid of it, but tries to direct the raids against targets that can defend themselves, figuring his control is better than someone else's?
<jebbo> He's doing it to impress the girl . . .
<BarGnat> He sold her out, I thought
<Dani> Other people would be doing worse than him in the situation
<Fredrick> Maybe he's genetically engineered to commit petty crime.
<beard5> perhaps he's a blind, agoraphobic, naked monk?
<@SLViehl> It could be a political statement -- he raids to protest the establishment. Then his ideals get lost along the way
<RobertHappyAsAClam> Really impresses girls, Jebbo, he's brilliant.
<Jaye> he sold her out to save her...
<@SLViehl> We did that already, beard, lol
<beard5> oh, sorry
<BarGnat> hehe
<James> Maybe he sold out the girl because she is herself a weapon -- and he needed her in among the raiders?
<jebbo> oops, missed a bit
<Fredrick> What if he lost all his stock in the corporation and now he wants to get back?
<@SLViehl> and time -- any last comments, suggestions for Nicosian?
<Fredrick> Maybe he should get something out of it.
<Dani> good idea, Fredrick!
<Nicosian> wow. that's a heap of stuff to ponder. thanks!
<beard5> going over this transcript is going to be a hoot!
<@SLViehl> I like there being some strong motivation for him to stay in the game, something that only makes him more miserable.
<Dani> has to devalue the company for some reason
<RobertHappyAsAClam> It's for the greater good.
<Fredrick> I think giving him a reward would make the story better honestly.
<Nicosian> I originally thought he was doing this for the kickbacks, and out of a sense of guilt.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> The means justify the ends only he just doesn't sleep real well anymore.
<Fredrick> Yes, guilt is a very good emotion for flawed characters, even if it's unjustified.
<Fredrick> Or especially if it's unjustified.
<@SLViehl> thanks all for some great character insight -- and that wraps up this week's edition of the TT. Great job, everyone.
<Fredrick> People can feel guilty for no real reason but their own.
<jebbo> G'nite y'all . . .
<Anne_Marble> Clap clap clap
<Jaye> We are sooo clever...
<Fredrick> That's it?
<BarGnat> Thanks everyone
<Nathan> Theres a lot of scratch if he gets what he needs to get for another employer
<Nicosian> gotta run, we have a scent of burning plastic here, not good.
<RobertHappyAsAClam> G'night all! Happy writing!
<@SLViehl> That's it, Fredrick
<Jaye> Thanks everybody... Good fish...
<jebbo> Frederick: you, 2 hours. Doesn't time fly
<Dani> so long and thanks for all the ..... (g)
<BarGnat> Thanks, Sheila, for another great session
<jebbo> yup
<Charles> night
<beard5> Sheila, if you need it, I have the complete transcript****
<jebbo> Thx!
<@SLViehl> thank you all, and hope to see you next Friday
<Nicosian> thanks! gnight!
<Fredrick> It doesn't fly; it rockets to the moon.
<James> It was another good one. Thanks again, Sheila, for hosting, and everyone else for being brilliant...
<@SLViehl> beard, I think I got it all.
<Anne_Marble> Argh, Word War night and I'm pooped
<Nathan> Me too sheila
<BarGnat> Good night, y'all
<RobertHappyAsAClam> I'm trying to get that last bit. Arrgh.
<@SLViehl> Remember to post your general discussion topics to the reminder thread next week
<Fredrick> Good night.
<beard5> 'Kay good night and see some of you in chat
<@SLViehl> Robert, I can send you a copy if you need one.
<Nathan> Night everybody thats leaving
<Anne_Marble> See ya there
<James> Count on it
<BJ Steeves> Thanks Again Sheila!
<@SLViehl> Nonny is having a word war over in chat, too, btw