<AShelton> Why's that, Cailin?
<Cailin> Type your name in the bar that says NAME and hit enter.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Ah, too easy
<Dawn> Hi All :}
<Starlit_Dreamer>
waves
<AShelton> Hi, Dawn
<@Jim> Hello!
<Cailin> Hi, guys.
<Dawn> amazing I manage to get in on my first try ..for a monday that almost a mircle
<AShelton> Hi, Jim
<AShelton> Again. LOL
<AShelton> Jim, what's with the @ before your name?
<Cailin> I'm surprised nobody heard me screaming and cussing this morning, where ever you all are.
<@Jim> Moderator.
<Dawn> oh and why is that Cailin
<Starlit_Dreamer> Sound doesn't carry very well across the atlantic
<AShelton> Ah Okay.
<AShelton> sgsgsgs
<AShelton> I was too tired . . .
<Cailin> Dawn} My computer has a virus, and is now in the shop. I have to walk 1 1/4 mile to the library to get to class.
<AShelton> I couldn't hear myself think, much less a scream all the way fromMissouri.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Hey, cool picture Jim.
<@Jim> Thank Holly, Nick.
<Dawn> Thats definately worth a YAK!!!! Cailin ..
<allikat> oh, boy. and I've heard how enjoyable your walks tend to be, Cailin...
<Cailin> Holly's having more fun with the doodle-board than everyone else put together.
<Starlit_Dreamer> 1 1/4 mile....... this is too confusing thats what... 4 km?
<Dawn> 2.5 km
<Starlit_Dreamer> Oh. Thats not so bad.
<Cailin> It's worth it. I'll probably miss the first mythology discussion, and maybe the second, but I'll be here for everything else.
<Cailin> It's bad if you have cerebral palsy and it's sweltering hot outside.
<@Jim> The logs should be posted on the class transcripts board.
<Starlit_Dreamer> How long will your computer be in the shop?
<Cailin> Last time it was a week and a half.
<Dawn> double ACK ..:{ its hot now will be hoter later this week (West Coast SF Area -- thou Inland a bit) Cailin
<@Jim> Ok... everyone ready? I have a few introductory paragraphs, and then we'll throw it open to questions and comments.
<Dawn> I am ready
<Starlit_Dreamer> Ready
<allikat> ready
<Cailin> Ready, and then some.
<AShelton> Ready as I'll ever be (and hoping storm doesn't take my computer down, too)
<AShelton> You mean I have to read, Jim?
<@Jim> Yes, Amy, you have to read.
<AShelton> goody
<@Jim> I'll try to make it interesting.
<@Jim> Dawn and I originally decided to collaborate because we had a good story going in a world system that Dawn had built up over a number of years. When the first draft was done we decided to continue collaborating because we work together very well. Dawn does a lot of, but not all of the worldbuilding for our stories, along with a number of characterizations, descriptions, initial plots, etc.
<@Jim> We usually work the fine points out and develop the stories together online. We started this partnership with the guidance of the written materials available from Holly and the book
The Career Novelist by Donald Maass, both of which stress that the partners should have some agreements in place before starting.
<@Jim> We worked out the list of seven points as we worked on our writing, and it has worked well for us.
<@Jim> One thing I will stress to everyone: make your friendship #1. Don't let conflicts over the story destroy your friendship with your collaborator. Always, always keep in mind that you are working with a friend to tell a story. The story is not (usually) as important as your friendship.
<@Jim> You will have disagreements about how to handle things. Agree with your partner that you will consider his or her points fairly, and that if one feels very strongly about it, then that's the way to go.
<@Jim> You need to consider and understand the reasons for wanting to 'do it' a certain way. Most disagreements fade when the reasons are examined and understood.
<@Jim> Questions or comments?
<AShelton> Sounds to me like marriage advice (I'll read anything).
<Starlit_Dreamer> Who writes the actual stories, after the worldbuilding is done? Do you both write parts, or drafts, or what?
<Cailin> This is someting that my husband and I are in the process of learning. we haven't strangled each other with the mouse cord yet, so I think we're doing pretty good.
<@Jim> We work the stories out together -- then I write the words -- but Dawn has input too. Your arrangement may differ.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Okie.
<AShelton> How'd you decide who'd do the actual writing?
<Cailin> That's how Allen and I do it, except occasionally I let
him write a scene or a chapter, then blend it in to the rest in later drafts.
<Dawn> Fortunately for me -- Jim has the time to do much of the writing to covert my chicken scribbling and mubbles as I work a day job and don't have the time.
<@Jim> We just sort of made the decision to do it that way. We each have our strengths and mine is doing the actual writing.
<@Jim> Before we started writing together, I used to write little vignette scenes and email them to Dawn... we got to know our strengths that way.
<Dawn> I done some as well but no where as much as Jim -- It helps us in the beginning.
<@Jim> There is some overlap, too... sometimes I contribute to the worldbuilding... in Secret Psychics I did much of the worldbuilding.
<@Jim> gmta, Dawn!
<Dawn> :}
<AShelton> What's gmta?
<@Jim> great minds think alike.
<AShelton> Oh
<@Jim> more questions?
<Cailin> About the name you publish under?
<Dawn> That as difficult decision to make
<Dawn> I think the current pseudo name to : Mills Greenlee
<@Jim> Holly emphasized that the way the bookstores work, it's best to publish under one name, not two, so we decided to use the name Mills Greenlee.
<AShelton> I saw that post . . . she said you could always have your real names listed in the publishing information.
<@Jim> You see, the big bookstores will list the book and track sales under both writer names, and then if we come out with independant books, it affects how many copies they will order.
<Cailin> Allen and Iave a rather different situation. We're writing in the same world, but sometimes we collaborate, and some projects are my solo work. He's eventually going to write his own in this world, too. We're not sure how to handle this.
<Dawn> suggestion ..you both write under one pseudo name
<Cailin> But his style is so different than mine that it's almost ludicrus!
<@Jim> You can put in the copyrights page that the work is copyright by each of your names.
<Cailin> It will be obvious that he and I are two people.
<AShelton> Yes, to readers . . . but bookstore computers don't read books.
<@Jim> Or you can choose to publish with a subtitle saying "A Allen & Cailin World Novel."
<AShelton> They only keep track of the names and sales.
<@Jim> (an Allen...)
<Cailin> I don't understand.
<Cailin> Isn't the readers knowing a
bad thing?
<AShelton> It wo'nt matter to the computer how many people wrote the book so long as there's only one name on the cover.
<Cailin> I'm not thinking about the computer, I'm thinking about the readers.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Make up a name for the world Cailin, and publish all books, regardless of author, as a "whatever" novel.... this is used in most series books (ie, dragonlance, forgotten realms)
<AShelton> No. The readers knowing is a good thing. I've gotten books by authors whov'e collagorated with authors I like.
<@Jim> If the world you write in is called ABC World, then title your book The Amazing Story by Allen... subtitle "An ABC World Story"
<Dawn> Or "xxxxx World Novel" by yyyy like 'Thieves World' ...thou for what I read it could hurt you ..but then again ..look at the 20+ books done in the Shadowrun world.
<@Jim> ... or by Cailin... <g>
<AShelton> I have a habit of looking at copyright pages . . . if I read something by two people I like I'll look for work they've done individually.
<Dawn> (sorry ..Jim and I had the same idea)
<@Jim> Your publisher will have a lot to say about that, too.
<@Jim> You get to say what your name is, though.
<Cailin> I don't look at copyright pages. They don't make sense to me.
<@Jim> Some do and some don't.
<@Jim> You can also put a web site address in your books. Mine is JamesKMills.com.
<AShelton> There's always a part that says, Copyright (date) (author's name). That's all I look for. I don't understand the rest myself.
<@Jim> The publisher will usually ask for some bio information, and sometimes a picture. That's where you can spell out who's who, and most booksellers won't catch on.
<Cailin> I'll have to print this transcript and take some time to try to understand, or have my mate explain it in Retardese.
<@Jim> If you read Holly's notes on the polite guerrilla campaign, if they're still up, she explains it much better than me.
<Cailin> I read it. For the most part it went right over my head.
<@Jim> I guess the important thing to remember is that the name deal is only because of big bookstore policies. The readers that like your work will find out who you are.
<Dawn> And very quickly I have found out. Like Laurel Hamilton. Her books fly off the shelves.
<Cailin> I got the "Privately-owned bookstore=good, chain-bookstore=bad" part, though.
<@Jim> When you publish, you'll need to do appearances and signnigs... the word will get around.
<Cailin> If the readers get to know *me*, my books will rot on the shelves.
<@Jim> Of course, that assumes you write a good story... the readers respond to quality storytelling.
<Cailin> It wouldn't matter how good the story is, if they knew me they wouldn't buy it.
<@Jim> Readers don't care if you're a zombie if you write good books.
<Dawn> Now here is something that can be an issue and needs to be discussed by collorabotor -- who does the signing and appearances ..with my day job and inherit limits of travel -- claustophobic -- Jim has volunteer to do much of the public stuff. Yehh.
<allikat> hey, we know you, and we still like you, Cailin
<AShelton> Yes, Cailin.
<@Jim> You have to do signings in California, Dawn... and we're planning on going to Worldcon San Jose together.
<Dawn> True ..I am looking forward to that only an hour or so from me
<AShelton> Me, I ever get published, I won't be doing many outside of conventions and local bookstores if I can help it.
<Cailin> I'm scared to death of crowds, and I've never traveled in my life. Plus I take a lousy picture.
<AShelton> Huh. None lousier than me, Cailin.
<@Jim> That's true for most of us, Amy. You can be scared, Cailin... but it's a part of being a writer.
<Dawn> Don't worry Cailin ..I never take good pictures either and my DMV picture ..does look frightful!
<@Jim> You have to overcome that fear. You can do it.
<Cailin> Is having a panic attack and passing out?
<AShelton> And writing fans aren't as goofy as movie fans, for the most part.
<@Jim> That could throw a kink in, I admit.
<AShelton> If you try to stick to conventions, you'll be able to schedule rooms and times suitable for you. And good cons have the guests' rooms separate from the general rabble.
<@Jim> My wife has high anxiety and is subject to panic attacks. There are things you can do to help yourself.
<Cailin> I made the mistake of taking my son to the circus. My husband had to carry me out of there. I was sobbing and gasping to hard to walk.
<Cailin> I help myself by staying out of crowds!
<AShelton> Hmmm. Then your husband may need to do all the publicity for you.
<@Jim> Do you get therapy?
<Cailin> No. I can't afford it.
<AShelton> Or you could try to schedule with another writer, who'd be willing to handle the lion's share of the interaction.
<@Jim> You may be able to find some free or low cost if you look around. Either way, you and your partner can work it out somehow. Talk to him about it.
<AShelton> So if you begin to feel overwhelmed you can retreat.
*Starlit_Dreamer* Well, thanks for the great class Jim. I think I might head over to the ref now to get some coffee before I fall back asleep
<Cailin> I wouldn't be able to walk through the front door. I can't brether in a room with more than five people.
<@Jim> Ok, Nick -- see you later!
<AShelton> That's why I've thought of collaborating . . . I do a lot better in crowds when I have someone else with me. So if I need to retreat, I can.
<AShelton> Bye, Starlit
<Starlit_Dreamer> Seeya all
Thanks for the great class
<allikat> bye, SD!
<Starlit_Dreamer>
stumbles out of the labs
<Cailin> I tried that route, Jim. The treatment was shoddy. I got the "Hey, it's free. You're lucky I'm wasting my time on you," stuff.
<@Jim> Cailin, if you have to avoid the crowds, then have Allen do the PR work.
<Cailin> 'Night, Star!
<@Jim> When you have more $$ then you can deal with it if you want.
<AShelton> Oh, I know
that kind of "treatment"
<@Jim> My wife takes a combination of drugs to deal with anxiety and depression.
<@Jim> Any more collaboration-related questions?
<AShelton> How did you and Dawn decide to collaborate?
<AShelton> I mean, how dod you meet and when did you realize you could collaborate?
<Cailin> I'm supposed to be. The drugs they were giving me were worse than the problem, and they refused to switch me. I had to quit taking them.
<@Jim> We play roleplaying games, including Dungeons and Dragons and similar games... that's how we met and our books come out of that.
<AShelton> Ah.
<@Jim> Get your MD to put you on Zoloft, Cailin. Just a suggestion.
<AShelton> That's awful, Cailin. Its a shame when the people who re supposed to help you don't.
<@Jim> My wife takes Celexa and Wellbutrin.
<@Jim> We make a conscious effort to make our stories stand as stories, though, Amy... with no reference to any game systems.
<@Jim> And some of my personal work isn't game-based at all.
<Dawn> As is mine.
<Cailin> I was on Zoloft for post-partum depression. But I don't have access to any kind of doctor right now. As soon as I get medicaid I may do just that. It worked. My psichiatrist had me on effexor. {shudder}
<Dawn> thou I am still in the outline stage of a Vampire story
<AShelton> None of mine is . . . .
<@Jim> That's part of the beauty of writing... everyone's is different.
<@Jim> More questions?
<AShelton> I'm sure I'll think of some tomorrow at work . . .
<AShelton> but I have none right now.
<@Jim> You are welcome to post them on the writer's board.
<AShelton> Thanks, Jim.
<@Jim> You've been quiet, Allikat... any questions?
<AShelton> Oh, I'd better go . . . headache from small print.
<AShelton> See y'all later.
<@Jim> Ok, Amy... see you later.!
<allikat> not really. I think everyone's covered all the ones I had
<Cailin> See you, Ash!
<allikat> bye, amy!
<Cailin> What do you do if you violently disagree?
<@Jim> Explore the reasons... generally you can work it out rationally.
<Dawn> violently disagree ... hum ..I don't think we had a violent disagreement ..as Jim as explore the reasons why ..it could be as simple as feeling 'possessive' of a character and not wanting to do that to them.
<@Jim> You have reasons for wanting to do it one way, and your partner has reasons for wanting to do it another. Understanding can lead to compromise or a complete change.
<@Jim> Dawn is right -- we talk it out and work it out -- we've never had a violent disagreement.
<Cailin> Allen likes to do sadistic things to my characters - he usually "plays" the villains. I tend to have a cow about it.
<Dawn> As the main world builder in LoC -- I done some terrible thing -- such as laying waste to San Francisco and Toyko ..in the first book
<@Jim> We don't have one play good guy and one play bad guy. We both play good guys as our main characters, and we both take turns running the villains. Sometimes you have to hurt your MCs to make a good story.
<Dawn> But you have to do it ..especially if it part of the plot
<@Jim> One of Holly's rules: ask what's the worst thing that could happen to your characters? Do it.
<Cailin> I must admit that without Allen the conflict in the story would be minimal. I don't have the heart to do bad things. Allen, though, is an evil genius.
<@Jim> Use that to advantage... as the good guy, you have to work your way out of the difficulties.
<Cailin> When we get to some scenes, we actually crack out the D&D and roleplay it. Alen makes a good necromancer.
<@Jim> We do the same thing, Cailin, though with a different game system.
<Cailin> How do you agree
when to sit down and work on something, and when to have it done. I have to hover over Allen with a cast iron skillet sometimes to get him to do his part so that I can do mine.
<@Jim> We are both pretty enthused about our stories... so that isn't a problem for us. Try to get Allen to be ~interested~ in the stories.
<Dawn> also we do our work for the most part over the internet via emails,chat rooms and IMs ..as it gets expensive doing long distance calls
<@Jim> That's for sure!
<Cailin> Allen loves the story, but he treats writing it like a revolting chore.
<@Jim> I guess you have to find ways to make it more interesting for him to work on it.
<Dawn> that can be a problem ..because with out the 'love' of a story you are going to have to fight it to completion -- or as Jim as -- make him 'love' the story
<Cailin> That's what I'm asking you. ::sigh:: I don't have a clue.
<@Jim> Build a love subplot into the story... and roleplay it to the hilt. <g>
<@Jim> Of course, you may not get too much writing done that way. <g>
<Dawn> LOL ..thats a thought
<Cailin> Our writing sessions - when they're successful - usually end in the bedroom, anyway. <G>
<Dawn> thought sometimes you just have to hit the character over the head -- to get them to remember to love ..remember what I had to do for Tsuki ..bambozed by the Lady of Time :}}
<@Jim> <g> How you work out that problem is really up to you. It sounds like you need to talk to Allen about it... a serious talk.
<@Jim> LOL -- or Seimei...
<Cailin> That's why I wanted to do this workshop
with him, but he had to stay home with our son.
<Dawn> true ..:}
<@Jim> (you have to read our books to get those references)
<Cailin> Will you be holding this again?
<@Jim> I'll post the transcript -- print it out and discuss it with him. We'll hold it again if there is interest.
<@Jim> hi anon94... type your name in the name box and join in!
<@Jim> Holly!!
<Cailin> {wince} Some of my remarks would get me spanked without compensation.
<@Holly> Hi, Jim -- Just me.
<@Jim> lol, Cailin... well... edit it.
<@Holly> Waiting for your class to officially end so I didn't interrupt anything.
<Cailin> Can anyone tell that I'm a mental and emotional wreck right now? ::sigh:: Sorry, guys.
<@Jim> Do you need the room?
<@Holly> Cailin -- I hate to ask this, but are you in the habit of getting spanked WITH compensation?
<@Jim> LOL
<@Holly> Jim -- No -- just wanted to know how things went.
<allikat> lol!
<@Holly> Finally got the monkey-boy to sleep, and it was about the right time.
<@Jim> Cailin -- you have to communicate frankly and openly with your partner. And he has to do the same.
<Cailin> The librarians have let me go well over the time limit on these computers. I'm going to have to bake a batch of peanutbutter cookies for them. :}
<@Holly> Cookies are the way to go, for sure.
<@Jim> Holly - when I tell it to save, where does it put the file?
<Dawn> thats nice Cailin..worth it :}}
<@Holly> I've been trying to figure that out, Jim.
<Cailin> I try, and I try to get him to do the same. When that fails there's always my great-grandmother's cast-iron skillet.
<@Jim> I hope you're joking.
<Cailin> Crud! In all the hullabaloo I forgot to eat!
<Dawn> suggestion ..copy it to word and send it to a file site you can upload to ???
<@Holly> Nope. I wish I were. Damon had no trouble saving text.
<@Jim> That's what I'll do, Dawn.
<@Holly> If you can do that, Dawn, go for it. I've had the save thing work once for me, but not since.
<@Jim> The 'joking' was in reference to the cast iron skillet.
<Cailin> I am. That skillet is a family heirloom. It would be a shame to break it over a male Stephenson skull.
<@Jim> I have yet to eat, too, Cailin.
<@Holly> Ah -- gotcha.
<Dawn> I will try Holly ..sometimes I surprise myself.
<@Jim> I'll post the transcript when we're done here, Holly.
<Cailin> Will you please edit out my whining, Jim. I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself for that.
<Dawn> ah ha .. control+c (cut) and control+v works ..(paste) .. I can do that ..I will send it to Jim edit ..he does a better job then I do
<@Holly> Cailin . . . you DIDN'T! <g>
<@Jim> I think we addressed and answered a number of questions. Cailin wants us to hold the workshop again. Not sure exactly what to edit, Cailin.<g>
<Cailin> :P @ Jim. The Nilfheim you don't!
<@Jim> Bring your skillet to Chicago. <g>
<@Holly> Weird -- still doesn't work for me.
<Cailin> I want Allen to attend. He couldn't because he had to stay home with the rugrat.
<@Holly> Someone else is going to have to log all of my classes. That stinks.
<@Jim> I can help, Holly.
<@Holly> That's a relief. I know you'll be at some of them, anyway. <g>
<Dawn> sent Jim
<Cailin> Holly, am I going to be able to ask questions at the Breakout class, or should I keep my auditing mouth shut?
<@Jim> Holly - try clicking in the chat window, then ctrl-home, then shift
<@Jim> then shift-ctrl-end to highlight.
<Dawn> Holly are you Mac or PC ..and which OS are you using?
<@Holly> Auditing is just auditing, I'm afraid. But I hope we'll have enough stuff to discuss frome everyone's work there that it will be worthwhile for everyone.
<@Holly> PC, Windows 98 SE, Microshit Internet Explorer
<@Jim> Microwhat? <g>
<Cailin> I'd thought so, but I wanted to ask. I'm still going to do the work, though.
<@Holly> I HATE windows!
<Dawn> LOL!!! . .you know Holly I totally understand
<@Jim> That's the same setup here, Holly.
<Dawn> I must crash my system ..with GFP -- all the time ..either that or AOL dies ..
<@Holly> I have yet to have a Microsoft product other than Word that has been worth the money.
<@Jim> I like word.
<@Holly> Yah. I have at least to system deaths a day.
<Cailin> I have Micro$hit Works. It sucks gym socks.
<@Holly> Oh, I LOVE Word. It it because of Word that I use all the rest of this crap.
<@Jim> ooh... not gym socks!
<@Holly> Works is lame.
<@Holly> Word is magnificent.
<@Jim> Does Word work with Linux?
<@Holly> I don't think so. Which is why I haven't committed to the switch yet.
<allikat> I gotta go. See you guys later!
<@Holly> Bye, Alli.
<@Jim> Ah. That might be a good question for Bob.
<Cailin> It lames my computer, nine times out of ten. My sister-in-law is going to load Word 95 for me when we get the computer back.
<@Jim> Bye Alli!
<Cailin> Bye, Allikitten!
<Dawn> Bye Alli
<Cailin> I have to go too - the librarian finally said something to me.
<@Jim> I like the red underlines in Word!
<Dawn> I haven't tried Linix yet ..but then my friend that use it don't do the same thing I do with their computers
<@Holly> I have to go, too -- I've been putting off editing all day. The copyeditor went way, way outside of her bounds, and I'm STETting like a crazy person, and adding yellow Post-It notes in which I politely vent my ire over every stupid change.
<Dawn> opp .. go get em' Holly !!! ..Good night
<Cailin> Politely? That must be a test of even your writing skills!
<@Holly> Oh -- did you guys like your art?
<Dawn> art?? did I miss something?
<@Jim> I'm going to go, too... see you all later... thanks for participating! Loved the art, Holly!
<@Holly> PHbbbbtttttt!
<Cailin> I'll be back same time tommorrow.
<Dawn> Night all
<@Holly> Night, Dawn
<@Jim> On the groupboard, Dawn.
<@Holly> I did all the goofy classroom intro art.
<@Holly> Trying everything, huh?
<@Jim> Not me.
<@Holly> Ah. that leaves Alli.
<@Holly> My son did the squares.
<@Jim> See you later! I plan to be here Thursday for plotting !
<@Holly> Me too. <g> Have fun. catch you later.
<@Jim> What do you draw those with, Holly?
http://www.jameskmills.com
Some of my work may be read at my forum: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/74198)
Mail to: Jim@HollyLisle.com