<@zette> First I have a class announcement. I'm unexpectedly going to be out of town for the next three days. For tomorrow and the next day I can do the class from the laptop in the hotel, but on Friday we'll be on the road.
<Damon M. Lord> Word97 is not working tonight, so it's gonna have to go in notepad
<demur1(robin)> zette, did you receive me email of the assignment?
<@zette> So, I'm going to try and do two of the classes tonight. They're both short ones, so we shouldn't have a problem. Then we'll just skip Friday.
<@zette> Did you just send it?
<demur1(robin)> yes
<Damon M. Lord> did we have to send it in? - Oops sorry I didn't
<@zette> Nothing so far. But don't worry. Really, that was more for you than me, just to get you looking at a basic idea for a story.
<@zette> Okay, everyone ready?
<Damon M. Lord> rubbing hands - ready to go!
<Jim> ((if I disappear again, it's my flaky, dying PC...))
<demur1(robin)> ...willing and able (?)
<Jim> (otherwise, I'm ready)
<Jenny> Ready.
<@zette> I understand, Jim. You can catch what you miss in the transcript.
<@zette> Tonight we're going to start with a discussion about who your best POV (Point of View) Character is for the story. It's not always the main character, though that's usually the best choice.
<@zette> The general rule is to find the person who is going to do the most changing during the story. That's the most interesting character for the reader to follow.
<demur1(robin)> even in a mystery?
<@zette> Now, while Sherlock Holmes was the real MC (Main Character) for the Holmes mysteries, he would have made a really bad POV character. He was too logical. There were no surprises in his world, while Watson, watching him was often changed and enlightened.
<@zette> LOL -- that I was typing up that one when you asked!
<demur1(robin)> esp?
<@zette> (grin)
<@zette> Anyway, the trick is to look at possibilities besides the one character you imagine as the main character. Sometimes you can find a 'sidekick' who can watch what's going on and give a better view, partly because he doesn't know what's going to happen next.
<demur1(robin)> Is it too complicated to have more than one POV in a short story?
<@zette> And that leads us into which type of POV you want to use --
<@zette> Snarf. There we go again. Hold on and let me write this out.
<Damon M. Lord> (is robin looking over Zette's shoulder?)
<Damon M. Lord> we lost Jim
<@zette> There are three basic types of POV: Omniscient, First Person, and Third. (There is a Second Person, but it's really more artsy than useful...)
<@zette> Did that picture change? I can't see it AGAIN!
<demur1(robin)> I can see it!
<Damon M. Lord> i see a (omniscient "Hi" he said etc.) pic
<Jenny> Me too. I think it looks more like a goat than a unicorn.
<@zette> hold on, I have to open it up in a graphic program for me!
<Damon M. Lord> I thought it was a snail
<demur1(robin)> I see 3 humanoids and a deer...
<@zette> Okay. This is omniscient, and really it's the worse one you can use. There can be absolutely no secrets from the reader.
<@zette> It's a unicorn. I say it's a unicorn, and it's a unicorn. (grin)
<@zette> Omniscient puts you into the head of every single character -- the head-hopping trick. The only way you can have a secret from the reader is to purposely skip someone's Very Important Thoughts, and then that becomes an obvious author intrusion and trick.
<@zette> It can be done, but really I don't recommend this one at all. It can be hard for the reader to follow who's who when you jump from head to head as well.
<@zette> Did it change to first person?
<demur1(robin)> nope...
<Damon M. Lord> yes it did Z
<Jenny> Yes.
<Damon M. Lord> graphic says ("Hi" I said)
<@zette> Thanks.
<@zette> Ah good!
<@zette> Okay, first person is the Main Character as Narrator. It has some good points -- immediacy, for instance. But the POV first person character cannot keep any secrets from the readers. And he limits the scope of the story to exactly what he knows and sees.
<@zette> (I could have typed that a little better. Well, I'll fix it in the transcript so I look brilliant.)
<@zette> Third person up?
<Damon M. Lord> changed to 3rd person now Z
<Anon_85> yes
<@zette> Good, good. This is annoying...
<@zette> Anyway, this is probably the more common one. And this is where you have the best chance of using more than one POV character.
<@zette> The trick is to not have too many of them, and to make sure there is a definite break between them so that the reader doesn't get confused. In a short story, I'd stick to three or less. Two is better. One is best, but not always possible.
<@zette> Any questions so far?
<Kaelle> Nope. I'm following you.
<rnw2000> Um <clears throat> are you going to go over tense? I have a first person, past tense question
<@zette> Ask.
<@zette> I probably won't know the answer, of course...
<Damon M. Lord> I once read a short story where it was set into sections - each section gave the VP of a different character, until they'd gone through about 6 people
<rnw2000> How do you handle a past tense story (1st person) when you want to start out ... it was the worst day of my life... or something so
<rnw2000> we know this all is happening in the past for the first person, and yet when we catch up to his/her present
<rnw2000> we continue in past tense...
<rnw2000> you don't write the whole thing in past-perfect, do you?
<rnw2000> <sits down>
<@zette> I'm not sure I would write it that way. The strong point of First person is the immediacy of the story. We are living in the character's head. So you might start with her relating a bit about why it had been the worst day, but slip into the present for most of it. Or whatever the term is. (I have a headache tonight, people, so my brain isn't doing well...)
<@zette> Experiment with the wording and find what reads best, really. It depends on the story. Almost all of my short stories are first person, but my novels are third. First person isn't as good for the long run, quite often.
<rnw2000> okay.. I was thinking about foreshadowing the awful action to come in the first line... that sort of thing... it was the day the earth exploded (or whatever)
<@zette> My suggestion is to try it in different POVs -- write a scene or two, and see if First or third or whatever actually works best.
<demur1(Robin)> The problem with the first person is he/she must see or hear EVERYTHING
<@zette> Exactly. And they can't be everywhere, but they can have a far stronger emotional impact for something that is personal to them.
<Jenny> Is that why most of your short stories are in first, Zette?
<@zette> Now the question is how many characters does your story need? This is where a lot of short stories get away from the writer and start veering off into novels.
<@zette> Yes, I think so. It just seems more natural, when relating a single incident, to give it the most emotional impact you can.
<demur1(Robin)> Is there a rule of thumb re number of characters????
<@zette> As few as you can get away with. Really. Use the Maas's approach of combining characters to cover needed aspects in the story, but try to keep the number down.
<@zette> We don't need to know everyone in town. We need to know the main character, and any one she is going to come in contact with. For a short story, that shouldn't be nearly as many people as it would be for a novel.
<@zette> There may be quite a few 'shadow' people passing along the road, so to speak, but we don't want to dwell on them.
<demur1(Robin)> It gets difficult to justify the presence of too many when you tie it all up at the ending, too
<@zette> What you want is only a couple people with whom your character will have a strong interaction.
<@zette> Exactly. You may need quite a few for certain stories -- but those kinds of stories might not fit as well in the short story limitations, anyway.
<@zette> That doesn't mean you can't do a 'blow up the world' story -- it's the way in which you tell it. The POV. In, say, a first person POV, that character is not going to interact with a lot of different people in the time span of the story.
<@zette> Time span is another point we should cover. Short stories generally have a short time span. Not always -- nothing is set in stone. But you are looking at an incident, not a life.
<Damon M. Lord> so if you want the character to come across as a lonely sort of guy, you'd go for 1st person?
<@zette> I think first person would work well for that. You get to see that he's lonely far more intimately than in third.
<@zette> First person is a very emotional POV.
<@zette> Third person is an observant POV. A bit more detached.
<@zette> And third has the ability to change 'views' from one person to another.
<@zette> Does that help? First can really help you limit the scope of a short story, too.
<Damon M. Lord> thanx Z
<demur1(Robin)> That' s a great help!
<@zette> Good! I'm going to head into what would be class three... did you all see my announcement about Friday?
<demur1(Robin)> yes! I think it' s great you can be on the road and still be here tomorrow and Thursday.
<Kaelle> Yes
<Damon M. Lord> wonderful Z - you are dedicated to this board
<@zette> I hope it works. There shouldn't be a problem. If there is, we'll just reschedule the classes for next week. I thought I ought to mention that part.
<Damon M. Lord> we all gotta thank you
<@zette> I'm addicted to this board. Obsessive, like my writing. (grin)
<Damon M. Lord> (I also might not have been able to have made Friday night, as I'm working on a website for some people who are coming round my house with beer too, but that's another story)
<@zette> Okay, so let's assume you've got a character in mind, and you are considering the POV. You have an incident/story you want to write.
<@zette> The next trick is to find the starting point.
<@zette> In yesterday's work I showed the ups and downs of a story line for a novel, and pointed out the best place to draw a short story out of that. The MC had learned magic, lost his family, discarded the use of magic. Found love -- but his love has been kidnapped.
<@zette> The best place to start this short story is after the kidnapping and as the character is making the decision to go get her. Not with the kidnapping itself, unless he's present.
<demur1(Robin)> Is that because after the kidnapping is the most emotional part?
<@zette> Even then, I would likely skip that part and go to the aftermath of the initial event that sets him in motion. That's the trick here -- you want the story to start out at a dead run.
<Kaelle> That could be dramatic, with him helpless to use his magic to save her as she's being kidnapped, though.
<@zette> Emotional, and already given the motivation to go. If we start with the kidnapping, we don't get to meet the character and find his emotional turmoil right away.
<Damon M. Lord> my planned short story is hardly action tho'
<@zette> It could. But it adds a scene and more characters than you might need to tell the story. Are you telling the story of the kidnapping, or of his rescuing the woman?
<Kaelle> Hmmm.
<Damon M. Lord> hardly any
<@zette> It doesn't have to be action, Damon. It just has to be something strong to draw the reader in.
<@zette> We're using the action format, because that's the usual form of writing either in short stories or novels. There are exceptions.
<demur1(Robin)> I hear the "gentle reader" screaming "entertain me!
<@zette> Remember, you can also tell about the kidnapping in backstory... the character remembers his being helpless as he pushes to find the woman, etc. That adds depth to his fears. Will it happen again?
<@zette> You don't actually have to show the scene in that case. But again, it depends on the story. In this case, I would start with the kidnapping past.
<@zette> Did plot points come up?
<Damon M. Lord> yes
<demur1(Robin)> yes
<@zette> So, in this story case, we send him on his way. He has a small failure of some kind. It can be physical, emotional, whatever works. He picks himself up. He 'climbs' higher toward his goal. At this point he might have a really bad fall. It looks like all is lost, etc.
<@zette> Like Holly said in her plotting class -- don't go in a straight line, in other words.
<Damon M. Lord> does it have to be a happy ending? The story I have in mind is a sad ending
<@zette> Find obstacles, but make them logical ones.
<@zette> Not at all. Let me tell you how I see this story. The guy gave up magic. He fell in love, and as it happens, the woman is from a people who abhor magic. He must use magic to save her.
<@zette> So, he can either not use magic, lose her to the bad guy whom she hates -- or use magic to save her and lose her for himself anyway.
<@zette> He cannot win. He can only do 'the right thing.'
<@zette> The trick for this story is to end it right after the rescue, but with the knowledge of what it has cost him. Not to drag that ending out.
<Damon M. Lord> my story ending is to be like 1984, the hero fails, the end
<@zette> You see the long drop after success. You don't want to go down that side. Just a step or two will suffice.
<@zette> I'll tell you Damon, they don't sell well. If you get a chance, go to NEVERWORLDS and look at their Guidelines. He has an excellent point on what they don't want to see in stories, including ones like that (as I remember it).
<demur1(Robin)> in a novel the hero must be changed or altered, in a story, just have an insight, perhaps?
<@zette> Okay. Assignment for this one is to just work out your opening. Play with the POV, try different characters and move around between first and third -- just experiment.
<@zette> An insight is a change. It's a change in perception -- but you're right.
<@zette> And remember, any story will work if it's written well enough. Damon's story may be excellent and sell the first time out.
<@zette> I'm not really here to tell you what to write, just give you some points on how to keep it within the bounds of a short story. (grin)
<@zette> I've had too many grow into novels myself.
<@zette> Oh... that brings up a point. You can write both, of course. There's no reason you can't write a short story and later write a novel with the same characters. So don't despair if you see expanding vistas. Note them, and write the short for now.
<Damon M. Lord> this has got the potential for novel-size, but i need to get it down into story first
<Damon M. Lord> (ESP)
<@zette> A lot of that tonight.
<@zette> Hey, it's already an hour!
<@zette> Any questions?
<demur1(Robin)> Yes! WHERE in the world is everyone from ? I' m in Brooklyn NY.
<rnw2000> zette... regarding the advancing toward goal and failing and retrying... if the POV is Watson...
<Jenny> What about novellas/novelettes? Is it okay to keep them at in-between length or should you try to shorten them?
<Damon M. Lord> I'm in Cardiff, Wales, at 0206am
<rnw2000> HE doesn't fail does he? He sees Sherlock Holmes fail, right?
<Kaelle> Western New York state, myself.
<@zette> A small town in Nebraska... (sigh)
<Jenny> Baltimore, MD, unfortunately.
<rnw2000> (San Francisco)
<demur1(Robin)> Wow!
rnw2000 zette...
<Damon M. Lord> why wow?
<demur1(Robin)> Well, I live with a guy from Ammanford!
<@zette> Usually it's Watson who fails, I think. Watson doesn't see the steps that Holmes does. Watson makes assumptions that are not quite right. I know Holmes makes occasional mistakes, but they're more spectacular because they are occasional.
rnw2000 hmm... okay... so Watson has a goal?
<rnw2000> oops. Watson has a goal too?
<rnw2000> not just watching Sherlock do his thang?
<@zette> Watson wants to solve the mystery just as much as Holmes does, don't you think? Doesn't he speculate on what's going on?
<rnw2000> mm hmm
<@zette> And he's actively involved. It may be that his goal is to watch Holmes solve it, but he has a goal.
<Damon M. Lord> Watson tries to outguess Holmes
<rnw2000> so his failures are proposing solutions and Sherlock reprimanding him
<@zette> Something like that. It's been decades since I read a Sherlock Holmes story. Sorry.
<Kaelle> Gotta go. Thank you for a very informative hour, zette. Hope to catch everyone here anon.
<@zette> You should never have a passive character telling the story.
<@zette> Bye!
<@zette> Hope it helped!
<Jenny> 'Bye, Kaelle.
<Kaelle> Bye!
<demur1(Robin)> Thanks Z.! Good night all -- I go to WRITE.
<@zette> Just because he's observing, doesn't mean he isn't active as well.
<Damon M. Lord> nighty night Z - what's the homework tonight?
<rnw2000> so if the cool-factor is the POV is observing the end of the world...
<rnw2000> he/she should be trying to stop it?
<Damon M. Lord> get the beginning down in 1st and 3rd to try it out?
<@zette> if there is a hope of stopping it. There might be other options. Going to say goodbye to friends and enemies. Preparing himself for death.
<@zette> Hi Holly!
<Jenny> Bye, Robin! May your ink flow smoothly.
<Holly> Hiya. Didn't want to interrupt class.
<@zette> That's it, Damon.
<@zette> We're just winding down again.
<Damon M. Lord> Hi Holly - I think the bell's just rung, so come on in
<rnw2000> okay I'll hold my questions til later
<Holly> Okay. Dropped in briefly earlier, because Jennifer Brin couldn't get the conference room to work. I was checking to see if it had pooped out on you.
<Holly> But class was going on, so I scooted back out again.
<@zette> I still can't see anything on the white board, but we worked that out.
<@zette> Ask any questions!
<Holly> Really???. It looks fabulous to me.
<@zette> I have to pull it up in a graphics program to remember what I'm looking at. Everyone else can see it, though.
<rnw2000> so, zette, I'm trying to get a handle on the POV char & the goals/failure issue
<@zette> Okay...
<rnw2000> I'm working on this story of the one person who sees 'it all' go wrong... nifty but, she is really a bystander
<rnw2000> to the incident until it is over
<@zette> What sort of personal impact does it have on the character? What does it stop her from doing that she wants to do?
<rnw2000> its earth-changing incident and she knows all about it because she is an insider
<rnw2000> but she is in love with the man who forks it all up for everyone
<@zette> I can see where the failure/obstacle one would be hard in that story. Is she torn between going along with it and thinking she should try to stop him?
<rnw2000> sure... its not all plotted out... I thought it would be an interesting tale, but looking at the triangles of your graphic I'm wondering if I've picked a poor POV character
<@zette> If so (for a story I would write, at least), I would have her at least make one aborted attempt to stop him. Either have her stopped by outside forces, or by her own emotions. Outside is generally stronger, but may not work in this case.
<@zette> Try playing with other POVs. You might find one with more impact. But I suspect you have it write, you just need to find the way to put twists and obstacles in her path.
<@zette> (Feel free to jump in, Holly!)
<rnw2000> right?
<rnw2000> okay thanks. I can see a mod to my plotline that adds a few triangles
<@zette> Good! (grin)
<Holly> <g> I'm editing the last of MOF. Don't mind me -- I just wanted some company while I worked.
<@zette> Almost done? Great! I bet you'll be happy to have this one out of your hands!
<rnw2000> thankz zette.
<@zette> No problem. Any other questions?
<rnw2000> the other one I had was about the start and the tenses of a story...
<rnw2000> This was the time that the earth was destroyed... and I should have seen it coming
<rnw2000> That kind of beginning... so the reader knows what they're in for
<@zette> (Wonders if I should hide now... tenses look alien to me tonight...)
<rnw2000> hehe... no problem. I'll play with it & let you know
<@zette> Do they need to know what they're in for? Surprising the reader is far better than telling them too much too soon.
<@zette> Besides, if she's in on it, she's going to know what's coming, right?
<rnw2000> so.. The concept is 'and I should have seen it coming'
<rnw2000> but I do suppose I could write it that she finds out in the middle and tries to stop it or something, but that changes the 'artistic-yatta-yatta'
<rnw2000>
<@zette> That's just a thought on my part. Look at different approaches, and find the one with the most punch.
<rnw2000> the punch. That's what I thought the heavy-handed foreshadowing would lend... <shrug> I'll play around with it
<@zette> That's not really foreshadowing though, is it? It's a done deal. There's not question. Now, having her fear what's going to happen might be better foreshadowing.
<rnw2000> so, I was going to let the reader know that SOMETHING bad was going to happen & she was in the middle and she should have seen it coming
<rnw2000> ... so in some ways this may be mystery-ish
<@zette> Ah! That's different.
<rnw2000> oh sorry... I wasn't trying to hide the relevant bits
<@zette> Like I said, play with it. Especially the opening, and see what works best. What draws a reader in, and what makes the rest of the story stronger.
<rnw2000> mm hmm... I will
<rnw2000> thank you
<@zette> And have fun! (grin) That's my prime rule of writing.
<@zette> I hope it helps!
(We then talked about rewrites and lots of other things while Holly worked...)
Lazette Gifford
Moderator, Holly Lisle's Forward Motion for Writers
Managing Editor, Holly Lisle's Vision (
http://lazette.net/vision)
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