<@zette> Transcripts are here:
http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/69237
<Michaela> Thanks, @zette
<@zette> Okay, this is running a little slow, but we'll give it a try anyway!
<Jim Mills> Welcome to the site, Spheric. If we can help in any way, please let us know.
<Spheric> ty
<Cailin> I've been saving them to disc.
<@zette> No problem!
<Cailin> Welcome, Spheric and Michaela both!
<@zette> This is the last of the 'lecture' part of the classes. We really don't have much to cover this time, and then we can discuss any questions the rest of you have, or discuss problems you might have.
<Spheric> I do have a problem ; )
<@zette> We've talked about limiting the scope of a short story by cutting out all the extra stuff that you might use if you were writing a full-fledged novel. But you are still faced with how to get your characters through a series of scenes from the start to end.
<@zette> You can't, of course, make any story too easy for your character. It's as true for short stories as it is for novels.
<@zette> With short stories, you have to make the steps quicker, and have fewer of them. You need roadblocks, but they can't be ones that would take half a novel to get past.
<@zette> Did that background change on the board?
<Spheric> yes, great flames
<@zette> I can't see it again. I could last night, but I can't tonight. I don't know why. Thanks!
<@zette> In a novel, you might take the detour that leads off to the nut and come back again to the main story. You can't do that in a short story. You must keep your ultimate goal always in mind, and make sure that whatever roadblocks you set up will help the character reach that goal when he gets past them.
<@zette> Don't throw in an attack of killer vampire raccoons just to add some adventure. Find a real enemy for your character to go up against.
<@zette> In a really short short story, you might need only one such confrontation. In a longer one, you probably want to work out a series of confrontations/steps for the character to take. But not too many. Really, most of that depends on the story itself. You can generally tell how much you need.
<@zette> It just takes practice.
<@zette> What you want to do is find the mini-break points in your story and make certain that the story has climbed to a higher pitch each time. And then you reach the big ending -- but don't go far beyond that.
<@zette> Now we get to a word that some of us cringe at -- OUTLINE
<Cailin> LaZETTE! Watch your language! There might be minors in the room!
<Jenny> I like outlines. Actually, I suspect I like them too much.
<@zette> I don't always outline at all. Sometimes I will only block out a few basic scenes, because I can get lost in my own writing and lose the path of the story. But some people find outlines very helpful.
<@zette> LOL, Cailin. But here's the easy way to outline. When you stop writing for the day, just add a single line for each step you see for the story, from that point to the end.
<@zette> That can be an incredible help in making sure you keep the story in line.
<Cailin> But what if you don't know what you're going to write until after it's already written?
<@zette> Liking them too much can be a problem. I know a lot of people who work very hard on the outlines, and never write the stories because they've 'told' it already, and the actual writing of it afterwards is boring.
<@zette> So you have to find your own level on that.
<@zette> To be honest, Cailin -- that's a bad way to write a story. You should always have some faint idea of what you want the story to do. And that's all you need to write down.
<@zette> For instance, you stop at a point where your people have gone to sleep for the night. You need to have some idea if they are going to face a problem in the morning -- or maybe something that comes into their camp that night. You don't need to say more than that, but it will help you keep on the line.
<@zette> The problem with not having a goal, Cailin, is that's how the story gets away from you and either grows far too large, or else dies for lack of direction.
<Robin_> Maybe what Cailin' s doing is writing TO the story --- her rewrite will be the development of the idea or theme.
<@zette> But that still doesn't guarantee that you won't find yourself stuck at some point. I have one rule for those moments, and it almost always works. If you find yourself looking at a scene and you're not sure what to do next -- then look for what would be the worse thing that could happen to your characters right then.
<Cailin> To be quite honest, I haven't got a clue what I'm doing. Every time I think I know where we're going, besides the vague end I have in mind, everything changes.
<Spheric> or the best thing
<@zette> The worse doesn't have to be a huge battle. It might be a soaking rain while they're hiking in the hills.
<@zette> You're letting it change. You know where it was going. Write that down and force yourself to keep to it.
<@zette> Best things are not good for stories, Spheric. They are not the kinds of exciting things, usually, that will get a reader excited and wondering what happens next.
<@zette> Save best things for the ending, if it fits, or for a brief moment, here and there, in a story. But don't try to use them to un-stick a story. They are not motivators. They'll only make your characters happy to stay where they are.
<Cailin> I think my characters and I need to redefine our relationship. I am going to start refusing to merely take dictation and start taking charge.
<@zette> But even if you use the 'worst thing' always keep it in context with the story.
<@zette> You are the goddess of your worlds, Cailin. It's time that you let your characters know that. (grin)
<@zette> It's fine to let the characters have a little leeway. Sometimes you can see things, when you look through a character's eyes -- but always remember that you are in charge of them. Don't disregard something that fits to the story, but don't let them ruin the story before you finish it.
<@zette> And remember that you have more than one story in you. If you come up with something neat you'd like to write, note it down and do it for another story. Use the same characters, if you can, but stick with your vision of this one, all the way to the end.
<@zette> Spheric, here's one that kind of plays into your 'the best thing' note. Don't get too caught up in the pretty stuff of a story. (Did the graphic change?)
<Jim Mills> (yes it did)
<Jenny> It changed.
<@zette> Thanks.
<Spheric> yes, I think what I was trying to say was the 'best' thing that really isn't
<Spheric> like the red red apple in snow white
<Spheric> it was poisonous
<@zette> In a novel, you might spend a page or two describing the wonderful waterfall at the end of a valley. You really can't do that in most short stories. A little detail goes a long ways in a short story, so you have to be careful of what you write.
<@zette> And remember that most of us have seen waterfalls. We'll know what they're like.
<@zette> Short stories move at a different pace than novels. Short stories are faster adventures. The reader is looking for a quick fix. They don't have the time to wade through the pond to the waterfall. They want to see the frog as soon as possible.
<@zette> BUT! This does not mean that you avoid any tension and just leap from one problem to the next. You just need to be careful of what you write as tension. If you are putting in a description of a waterfall because it looks nice, limit the description, and find a way to make it a problem as well as pretty.
<@zette> I see one more problem that writers state a lot as a reason why they can't move on in a story. It's the ' my characters wouldn't do that' excuse.
<Cailin> Like the water rushing over the falls being stained pink because of all the boddies that have been flung in the pond?
<@zette> This is not a reasonable statement. If you come up against something in a story and think that your characters wouldn't do it, then find a way for them not to. Or force them to do something 'against character.' Remember that people under stress are apt to do things they normally wouldn't. They are even apt to do stupid things, which can add to a story.
<@zette> Ponds are usually at the bottom of the waterfall, but that's a good example.
<@zette> When you come up against a point like that, look at why you think your people won't move forward and either find a way around the problem or through it. But don't let it stop you from finishing.
<Cailin> The only waterfall I ever saw was one that had the pond on top and flowed straight into the river.
<@zette> And that brings us to the last part... finishing a short story.
<@zette> Ah. I've only seen ones that were rivers at the top (or streams) that flowed into a pond -- or on into the rest of the river.
<@zette> But that would work.
<@zette> You would just have to make sure you know the mechanics of how a pond like that would work, rather than a river/stream type waterfall. People like me would immediately think the one type, rather than that.
<Cailin> This "pond" is actually a massive spring - they still haven't found the bottom of it. They used to use it to power the mill.
<@zette> Okay, so let's assume that you've gotten your character from the opening, through a series of trials and tribulations, and all the way to the end. Let's assume that the ending is a big battle with the bad guy. There are different points at which you can end the story.
<@zette> (Neat Cailin. That sounds like an interesting place!)
<@zette> The most obvious is that you do the fight, the good guy wins, and that's that. Except, what was he fighting for? Was he after a prize of some sort? Did he rescue the woman he loves? Then the reader will expect to see the two of them together.
<@zette> The problem is that you can run this too long sometimes, and lose the power of the climax. Once that battle is done, the last thing you want to do is write another four pages of how they got back to the village, built their own little hut, and had five kids.
<@zette> The story was about how he rescued the woman. Once that is done, show that he's completed the quest, won the woman of his dreams, and they are going off together.
<@zette> Finding the right ending is often as difficult as finding the right opening. With the opening, you want the action to be already going. With the ending, you want the action to be barely over.
<@zette> There might be another answer for an ending. In some cases having an ambigous ending will work. The story of someone finding the courage to fight a monster might end right before the battle. The outcome of that fight isn't as important as the struggle it took the character to get there. Win or lose is no longer important. She found the courage to try.
<@zette> But you can't do those kinds of stories very often. (grin) It's just a possibility.
<@zette> Hey, we've been here almost an hour! Any questions?
<Spheric> What would you do if you think your ending is 'flat'? Not as good as the rest of your story?
<@zette> You guys are being way too quiet. It makes me nervous.
<Jim Mills> (I'm not sure what to ask, Z.)
<@zette> Then pull it out and work exclusively on making it less flat. A little more tension, better wording, etc. Or a slight twist just before the end.
<@zette> Rethink the ending, if you need to. Was it too easy at the end? Then give your people one more trial by fire to get through, just when it looks like they'll win.
<Cailin> I'm at a loss. I haven't written a short story before, except for my pathetic attempts for my college writing course.
<Spheric> very perceptive - my story includes a fire
<@zette> They're not as hard as they look. They're mini-adventures. Very short novels.
<Spheric> actually the remembrance of a fire during a seance
<Michaela> Z, instead of outlining can you use the index card method? Write different ideas on a separate index card and make up story that way.
<@zette> We've been having a lot of esp around here lately. (grin)
<Spheric> I think the fire sequence is much more exciting than the resolution
<Cailin> {looks innocent}
<@zette> I love the index card method. It's a lot more fun than outlining, and allows you to move pieces around to build the tension better.
<@zette> Then end right after the fire sequence. If the resolution isn't exciting, then you probably don't need to do more than give it a couple lines.
<@zette> Don't drag the ending out, in other words. End just a little beyond the highest point of adventure.
<Spheric> the goal for my character though is knowledge
<Spheric> I'm not sure how to demonstrate that w/o going on
<@zette> If there is something specific that the characters 'win' through their trial, try to make certain that the is apparent to the reader, and they'll believe, having won, that they reached that goal.
<Jim Mills> Spheric: So have him/her learn something important and then end the story. Find a book or something.
<@zette> How is the knowledge given? Are they handed a book? Then that's all the reader needs to see.
<Spheric> no book, character has vision of fire during seance
<Spheric> and then knows the truth about a haunting
<Spheric> but I think I need to get her out of trance
<@zette> In other words, show the character getting the key, but not the knowledge itself -- unless you have made that knowledge is an answer that you need to complete the story.
<@zette> Ah, okay. Yes, here is a problem.
<Spheric> dreamsequences, trances, and flashbacks, yes, I know
<Spheric>
<@zette> What you might have is a passive character. They don't always work well, because they're not really doing anything to reach the ending. It's coming to them. So make her fight for it, somehow.
<Spheric> yes, she's experiencing it at firsthand - choking like she's in the fire herself
<@zette> Experiencing it is not the same as dealing with it, though. Just keep that in mind. She's still being passive if everything happens to her, and she is not doing anything to move the story ahead.
<@zette> What you might need -- if you don't have it already -- is an enemy that she can work against, even if it is in trance. Not something ethereal, but a solid force that the reader can recognize as an enemy to be slain before the knowledge is gained.
<@zette> But that's just an idea. Really, if the problem is just the ending, then you should probably look at ways to cut that ending down to make it more exciting.
<@zette> I should note real fast that I will be on the road for home tomorrow at this time, but I've covered all the stuff that I would have on Friday in the last two classes, so we did very well.
<Spheric> I think I need to take a line of dialogue away from one character and give it to her
<Jim Mills> Drive safe, Z.
<Spheric> yes, safe journey
<@zette> That kind of stuff often works well, Spheric. Sometimes the smallest fix can change the focus and help.
<Spheric> thanks for the tips
<@zette> I don't have a scheduled class until next Wednesday, August 8th. Between now and then all of you should start working on a short story, if you haven't started one already, and be prepared to discuss how it's going on Wednesday.
<@zette> But, as most of you know, I'm usually in the regular chat most nights, so you can talk to me there, too.
<@zette> Or email me with any specific questions at zette@sff.net
<Jim Mills> Z, there was a question regarding a class you scheduled for 8am Sunday... did you talk to Holly about that?
<Spheric> r there ways to share stories?
<@zette> The goal is to have the first draft of a short story done by August 12th.
<Jim Mills> S: You can post them in crit circles...
<@zette> Drat. Forgot to get that changed. It should be PM, of course.
<@zette> I was thinking that after the 12th we might start a crit circle just for people in this class.
<Jim Mills> Conflict that day -- worldbuilding workshop at same time.
<Spheric> will we be doing any sharing w/ this class?
<Jim Mills> Would you like me to start a Keeping it Short Crit Circle, Z? It could go on the general fiction board.
<@zette> Is there? He must have put those in after I did the class. My fault for having the wrong time. I'll move to another day.
<Spheric> that would be cool
<@zette> No, Jim. Not yet. Not till after the 12th. There is no reason for people to rush to get into the circle.
<@zette> We'll move to the 14th. That's still free.
<Jim Mills> k.
<Spheric> guidelines for stories?
<@zette> And that gives everyone a few extra days. This is serious -- you should have a finished first draft by then. That's the point of writing short stories (at least as far as this class goes) -- they do not take forever to write.
<@zette> No guidelines except to make sure they are less than 7,499 words -- official SFWA short story limit.
<Spheric> topic?
<Spheric> any genre?
<Jim Mills> The problem I'm having is coming up with short story ideas. Most of the ones I write are novels. I've searched through all my novels for a scene that might make a good short, but have been drawing a blank.
<@zette> Any at all.
<Spheric> great
<@zette> Did that come through? Look at the chart from the first class, Jim. Pull out a piece of that novel, and write it as a short story. There is no reason why you can't do both.
<Spheric> can the story be literary instead of genre?
<Jim Mills> Ok... I'll look at it again.
<@zette> If you want. I don't care what type of short story, really. Just so long as it is a real short story.
<Spheric> o.k., crimson warrior needs the address for the class transcripts
<CrimsonWarrior> Well let me introduce myself then and thanks for the help Spheric
<@zette> It's somewhere in this transcript. Let me see if I can find it again!
<CrimsonWarrior> I am Portuguese... and this is the first time I get to enter this conference room
<Spheric> sorry, I just don't have the address, and zette does
<Jim Mills> The class transcripts are on the Class Transcripts board.
<Jim Mills>
http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/69237
<CrimsonWarrior> Okay
<CrimsonWarrior> thanks
<@zette> Ah, he got it!
<Jim Mills> yw.
<@zette> There! New date set on calendar for the last class.
<@zette> Welcome to the conference room, Crimson!
<@zette> Are there any more specific questions? Remember, I'm on a phone card until I get back home tomorrow. (grin)
<CrimsonWarrior> thank you zette! I really enjoyed this last hour.
<Jim Mills> Z: I have the log if you need it.
<CrimsonWarrior> I have been reading every hour
<CrimsonWarrior> I guess I will be appearing here more often
<Spheric> yes, thank you
<CrimsonWarrior> Then again you'll have to forgive my English sometimes
<CrimsonWarrior> as I said before I live in Portugal
<@zette> Good!
<Spheric> your English is god
<Spheric> good
<Spheric>
<CrimsonWarrior> thanks
<@zette> You're doing just fine. I mangle enough English for both of us, and it's my native tongue.
<@zette> We're informal here. Don't worry.
<Spheric> my typing is probably worse than your English
<CrimsonWarrior> O.K.
<CrimsonWarrior> Lol, Spheric.
<@zette> I may be giving this class again in September, if there is any interest. I have to get past the Writer's Dare and getting Vision put together before I go into another project.
<CrimsonWarrior> Well I've been having classes for some years but...
<CrimsonWarrior> it's never the same.
<@zette> Anything anyone wants to ask?
<Jim Mills> No class tomorrow, right?
<Spheric> just to confirm, sun, Aug 14 8pm, bring your short story?
<@zette> None tomorrow. One class on the 8th to see how everyone is going, and then the 14th, 8PM with story in hand. (grin)
<Spheric> got it
<robin> thanks, z
<@zette> And I am available, through email or often in chat, just about any day. Except tomorrow, when I'll be on the road. This is not the chat room, for those just here. The chat is listed on the bottom bar of the Forward Motion site. It says Chat! And lists how many chatters are there.
<@zette> No problem. I'm sure I could have explained things better in a lot of cases, but this is the first time I've ever done something like this. I write stories instinctively; so working out details on how to do it was a real challenge.
<CrimsonWarrior> I think you did it quite well. Thanks, I really liked some of your explanations
<@zette> Thank you!
<robin> the step by step approach was very helpful --- now to write it!
<Spheric> good night all
<Jim Mills> I agree. You've cleared up a lot of my questions about differences between shorts and novels.
<Spheric> excellent graphic organizers
<@zette> That's always the trick. Don't get discouraged. It may take a few tries to get it down.
<@zette> Thanks, Jim! I hope that they will help people be able to write them. Bye Spheric!
<robin> And kudos to you, Z for coping with all of this away from your home computer turf!
<Spheric> see you on the 8th
<@zette> Grin. It's been odd -- different computers each night and all that. But it worked out.
<@zette> I will have this transcript up tonight.
Thanks to everyone who came to the classes! It was fun! See you on Wednesday!
Lazette Gifford
Moderator, Holly Lisle's Forward Motion for Writers
Managing Editor, Holly Lisle's Vision (
http://lazette.net/vision)
Webmaster, SFF.NET's E-STAND (
http://www.sff.net/estand)
Home Page:
http://lazette.net