zette:
This is a midway class just to see how people are doing on their short stories, what problems they're having, and what they might need to do to push the story on to the end.
zette:
Probably the hardest obstacle to get past in writing any story isn't the opening... it's the dreaded middle of the story. You've started things going, you know how it's going to end... but how do you get there?
zette:
This is a test for pictures coming up...
zette:
Well, that didn't work. How odd. It always does in the other one.
JenStClair:
Even smilies won't work.
NOTE: THEY DO, UNFORTUNATELY, WORK IN THE TRANSCRIPT...
zette:
Nope. No big deal.
JimMills:
I'll have to ask Holly about that. There may be a switch she can set.
zette:
So, have all of you been writing a short story yet? I talked to Cailin, and I know how she's doing. What about the rest of you?
JenStClair:
I've been trying to finish one I started a long time ago. Does that count?
zette:
Smilies won't work? It's a miracle!
zette:
That counts. Did you have a sticking point?
Cailin:
:P
JimMills:
Not really, Z. I have a story idea, but I'm having trouble developing it into any kind of story at all.
JenStClair:
The middle, of course. Or, rather, the beginning of the middle, even.
JenStClair:
I didn't even get past page... let me see.
zette:
I see a lot of people get stuck there -- short stories and novels. I think it's because they start thinking "I'm in the middle of the story. The fun stuff happened at the opening, the exciting stuff is at the end. This is boring."
zette:
Wrong attitude to have. There should be no boring parts, of course. If the middle is slow, then you need to throw in more trouble. Trouble that comes between the hero and the end, but is a natural block, not something artificial just to get action moving.
JenStClair:
four.
JenStClair:
That's true. I think part of my problem was that I wasn't quite sure what kind of trouble she'd run in to.
JimMills:
Z - you're quoting from the Handbook of Short Story Writing, aren't you?
zette:
In cases like this, the horrible outline can really help. Write down a couple lines for what you have in the opening. Then skip a bunch of lines and write a couple lines for the ending. ALWAYS have an ending in mind. Then see what naturally would fall in there.
zette:
No, I'm not. Do they say that? Who wrote it? I'll have to find it!
zette:
Don't work out long details, just try to find a few little incidents that you can grow into real trouble.
JimMills:
High Middle by Dwight V. Swain. Almost word for word. It's in the Handbook of Short Story Writing Volume II.
JenStClair:
(She's quoting from The Idiot's Guide to Short Story Writing, of course.<g>)
zette:
That's funny! Ha, I must be doing something right!
JimMills:
(lol Jen... I just reviewed the book I mentioned. That's why it's fresh in my mind.)
JenStClair:
I think that's one of the reasons I don't write many short stories. If they don't come to me as a whole, I don't ever finish them.
zette:
I have read some of Swain's other work. Maybe I caught some of it from there.
zette:
You might, when you get an idea, jot down one page of outline, Jen. It might help you get from the opening to the ending without abandoning stories.
zette:
By the way, my personal rule is to NEVER abandon a story. Always write to a logical ending. Stories I thought were utter crap have turned out to have a workable base, and I've sold two or three of them. Also, you can learn a lot from a story that's gone 'wrong.' Trying to make it find a good ending is really educational.
JenStClair:
It might. I'll try to do that with this one I'm working on.
JenStClair:
I never abandon them. They just go in the backlog, which I'm attempting to clean up currently.
zette:
I have a 'finish it in one year' rule. That keeps me from having things sit in files for years, pretending that they'll be finished.
zette:
Okay, Jim -- you aren't having luck starting your story? Why?
JenStClair:
I am trying to follow that rule. <g>
zette:
It's a rough rule sometimes, but it sure gives me a lot of material to put out and work with. (grin)
JimMills:
Well, I'm really not sure how to start it... I kinda have an idea, but I'm not sure where to go with it.
JimMills:
Here's what I have: SF - story idea - set in near future - background (to be related in the story): Nursing homes use complex life support system "beds" to maintain life, while the mind is put into "The Dreamery" where the aged can still enjoy active lives, talk with others, etc. The story comes in when a grandson needs to get some information from her grandfather. Visitors can enter the Dreamery via headsets that they put on... but there are some difficulties talking to someone in a dream. Let's call the characters Grandpa George and John, the grandson. John needs some information from Grandpa. Let's say he found some reference to a hidden treasure, the family is in hard times financially, and they need the money.
zette:
Do the outline I just said for Jen. And remember what I said about where to start stories -- right after the action has started is usually good, if you can find a place like that.
JenStClair:
Sounds neat, Jim.
JimMills:
I thought I'd start it with John going to talk to Grandpa, but I'm not at all sure how to do it.
rnw2000( ray ):
Jim... do you know what you're trying to say with the story?
zette:
Start with putting the headphones on, I suspect. Encountering something strange, perhaps, because he did it before someone in charge told him to. Have contact with the outside via the headphones, is what I'm saying.
zette:
Okay... You need to find your opening. I suspect once you do that, you'll start to see where the story should go.
JimMills:
The way I'd visualized it, he has to go into the dream to be in the Dreamery... it's more than VR. It's direct stimulation to and interaction with the brain. He'd have to leave the dream and wake up to talk to a tech.
zette:
So have someone go into the dream to find him, perhaps. Doing it illegally, in fact, would add to the story.
JimMills:
That's an idea...
zette:
Remember that you have to find obstacles. Obstacles that the reader will find exciting. Doing something illegal will sometimes do that, especially if it's something not even possible in our real world.
JimMills:
Good idea. I'll have to spend more time working on it. I've been putting a lot of time into the breakout class the past week or so.
JimMills:
And not so much time into other things.
zette:
Once you start thinking in terms of obstacles, they start to become clearer. It's even kind of fun sometimes.
JimMills:
Thanks.
zette:
I hope it helps. Sometimes talking out problems like this can give you new ideas.
JenStClair:
You'd better believe it, Zette!
zette:
So who else is having opening or middle problems?
zette:
Or questions about short stories at all? This is really a chat session to see if there's anything any of you are having problems with.
Cailin:
I'm chickensh*t to start, I guess....
rnw2000( ray ):
I'm concerned that my MC isn't active enough... just watches the show & I was wondering if that might be OK (under certain circumstances)
zette:
Why? Really, why be afraid of words on paper? They aren't set in stone. Everything can be changed, unless you don't do anything at all, Cailin.
zette:
It depends on the story, Ray. Quite honestly, stories with little action are harder to sell because readers might be looking for something more. And it depends on the market.
zette:
It's unlikely that you'd be able to sell a story like that to an sf market, for instance. They're generally big on action.
rnw2000( ray ):
I did not mean to talk out of turn. I thought Cailin meant "I am afraid to be the first one" not afraid to start the story
zette:
No problem, Ray.
rnw2000( ray ):
so, I'll wait my turn
zette:
I think Cailin doesn't want to say much. (grin)
rnw2000( ray ):
Cailin... I have a trick for getting started
JenStClair:
Even short stories have to start somewhere, Cailin. <g>
rnw2000( ray ):
You just start typing what you see happening. Don't worry about telling the story right, or with the right words, just start putting on paper what you see in your head.
rnw2000( ray ):
(Then later, you can go back and work it into good fiction) But once you get a few sentences in... You may find yourself loosening up and "writing")
zette:
Just always remember that you are the only one who has to see anything you write -- until you're ready to show others, and you can never disappoint yourself if you are willing to keep working.
zette:
That's a good way to start, Ray.
rnw2000( ray ):
hehe... and I have a motto (which I've written on a sign for myself) "I'm only trying to tell a story")
JenStClair:
Mottos are fine things to have. That's a good one.
rnw2000( ray ):
Which implies... I'm not trying to sell fiction, nor to win awards, nor to become famous, etc
zette:
The more stories you start, the less trouble they are, too. After awhile, you can get a feel for just hitting the keyboard at a run.
zette:
Mine is "Write for the love of writing."
zette:
If you're in it to be famous, rich, etc... Well, you're either in for a long wait or a real disappointment.
JimMills:
(even Stephen King started out just telling stories.)
zette:
I think every writer does. And my 'for the love of writing' isn't the only answer. Some people aren't motivated by esoteric stuff like that.
JenStClair:
Mine is "You don't define yourself by what you have to do to make a living, but by what you want to do... But you know, if you can do what you want to do and make a living, that's all the better, isn't it?"
JenStClair:
<g>
zette:
LOL!
zette:
Okay, back to the short story problems....
zette:
Sometimes just finding that opening scene is really difficult, especially for the first few stories. Try to find where some action starts, or something mysterious happens. Look at the 'first line' exercises, too. Those are often great ways to see how stories should open.
Cailin:
Sorry I got quiet -- I had to lay down for a second.
zette:
Well, you'll have to see all our great advice in the transcript. (grin)
zette:
Hope you feel better!
Cailin:
Thanks.
JimMills:
I've had days like that, C.
JenStClair:
I've started many stories with the first line exercises.
zette:
(I am so pleased not to have the smiley faces!)
zette:
I've done that for a few years -- gathered a few hundred first lines that I wrote in journals, and then found one that sparked an idea again. It's great when you're behind on the short story dare. (sigh)
rnw2000( ray ):
Is this Q&A time?
zette:
Ask away.
zette:
(And ask anything you want to know, JLeeja!)
JLeeja:
Thanks. I'm learning a lot just listening in. <G>
rnw2000( ray ):
Frustrated... I cannot post
zette:
There you are!
zette:
I had a problem a little earlier.
JenStClair:
It worked that time!
rnw2000( ray ):
My main character doesn't DO too much, but she is 'there' when all the doo-doo comes down...
rnw2000( ray ):
So I thought the interest (for the reader) in this story would be her take on the events that happen
zette:
Okay, does that mean she's a passive MC? Passive MC's are not good main characters. Is there something she CAN do, either for good or bad, which will at least make it appear as though she's more than a potted plant in the room? (Exaggeration, of course, but you get the idea.)
rnw2000( ray ):
mmhmm... she does a few things, but toward HER goal (which I thought would be good) but the real SF/F elements just happen around her
zette:
One rule that everyone needs to consider -- potted plants do not make good main characters. The bug eating it is far more interesting. (grin)
JenStClair:
Unless the potted plant is the plant that ate dirty socks, that is.
zette:
Working toward her goal is good, but can you tie them together? Braid them in some way, so that what she does has a reaction in the story?
JimMills(((Hmmm... The Potted Plant... the story of an intelligent plant that invades Earth... oh no! It's The Little Shop of Horrors!))):
LOL Jen!
zette:
There are always exceptions, Jen. That's what makes writing so much fun. (grin)
JenStClair:
(It's actually a children's book.<g>)
JenStClair:
That's true, zette.
rnw2000( ray ):
Okay. She does things (toward her goal) which puts her in position to see the events that shape the world (the reason I'm writing this story) ... I don't know if it's enough Action on her part though.
zette:
Ray, if you can find things for her to do that are in sync with your outside forces -- mirrors them, or goes against them, I think that might work.
rnw2000( ray ):
okay... This piece is 3000 words, so I guess therez room for other stuff to happen, eh?
zette:
Then have her goal in complete opposition with something that is going to happen. Force her to work for her goal against something else in the story. A character always needs opposition.
zette:
Oh yes, you have lots of room yet!
rnw2000( ray ):
Good advice
zette:
Thanks. (grin)
JenStClair:
Time for me to head on out. Very informative, Zette!
zette:
Thanks, Jen! Next class is the 14th, by the way!
zette:
And I expect people here to have stories by then. (grin)
JenStClair:
Cool. Should be able to do that one as well.
zette:
Talk to you later!
zette:
More questions? Thoughts?
zette:
Problems?
zette:
Don't make me go back and do more web work!
JimMills:
lol Z... I'm working on my outline.
zette:
Good!
Cailin:
I have to go so that my husband can use the computer for a while.
zette:
I'm sure I'll see you later, Cailin!
zette:
Losing people! How about you two? Anything to ask or say?
rnw2000( ray ):
so, zette. In my passive-ish MC story, I'm afraid to get too much more 'into it' with this story, because it will explode into a novel (I know we already talked about limiting the time line)
zette:
Don't let it. You are in control, even if it doesn't seem that way. And here's a secret -- write the short story, and then write the novel, if you still feel the need for it. But make yourself do something short first.
zette:
If nothing else, tell yourself it's a section of the novel. It has to have an ending, that's all.
rnw2000( ray ):
The MC's goals conflict with the Big-Baddie's goals, but it may not become evident in this 3000 words & if I try to explain how I will need a bunch more scenes
zette:
And sometimes short stories are great world building exercises for novels.
zette:
You have to do whatever it takes to make the short story 'right.' But look at your 'bunch of scenes' and see if you couldn't combine them into one or two with more punch.
rnw2000( ray ):
Okay... good idea.
JLeeja:
I think I'm having a hard time getting past my first scene. I have a couple of things that might happen, but I'm having trouble deciding which or when.
zette:
A short story generally doesn't need more than one or two confrontations. Just keep that in mind. And the larger confrontation should be just before the ending.
zette:
Choices are always harder to deal with than no ideas at all!
zette:
Maybe try the outline system and follow each choice a few steps down, and see which leads to the better, more exciting story.
rnw2000( ray ):
Are the timelines short (in short stories)?
zette:
Or at least the one that's more fun for you to write. (grin)
zette:
Almost always, Ray -- but there are exceptions. It depends on the story.
JLeeja:
(It's also too hot. It was 102 today and my air conditioner's broken.) I like that. Thanks.
JimMills:
Z: Where do you want us to post our stories? Or do we email them to you?
zette:
The general rule I use is that a short story is an adventure, not the entire quest. One step in someone's life -- an exciting step, that will change their life, but we don't have to see those changes. The changes should be evident by the end of the story, that's all.
zette:
We'll post on the board attached to this chat, but right before the next class.
JimMills:
k - how long before?
zette:
Nasty hot weather with on AC, Jleeja. That sounds miserable.
zette:
This isn't going to be a critique group, Jim, so it doesn't have to be more than a few hours before. I'll post when we're ready. We might yet do a critique group, but I don't want people feeling rushed to get things critiqued for others when they should be writing their own stories.
zette:
After the last class we'll see how everyone is doing.
JimMills:
k - we can always post in our other crit groups, too, right?
zette:
Sure!
JimMills:
<g>
zette:
They're your stories. This is just to get you moving on them, and help you define the boundaries of a short story.
JimMills:
k
zette:
Any other problems, JLeeja?
JLeeja:
How little is too little description? I've noticed I don't bother with it much.
zette:
Ah, that's a tough one. You have to be able to give a feel for the 'world' where the story takes place, but you don't want to overpower a short story with too much.
zette:
Immediate details, closest to the MC, are usually the most important. Working out from there becomes less important, at least in my opinion.
zette:
We are not going to live long in this world, so we don't need to know as much to ground us as we would in a novel.
zette:
Focusing on the unusual is often helpful in a case like this.
zette:
I'll tell you a secret I do for adding sensory details to stories. I start at the last page and work my way forward, adding color, sight, sound or touch to every page.
zette:
By starting at the end, I don't 'see' the story as I read it. It doesn't flow progressively forward, so I don't just slip into what my mind imagines is there, but might not be.
JimMills:
What about scent and taste?
zette:
Yes, those too.
zette:
Something from one of them on every page can really give a story more life.
JimMills:
Does a short story have to have a surprise twist at the end?
zette:
No. Why should it have to? Has every short story you've read had one?
zette:
A story of any sort should have a logical ending, twist or not.
JimMills:
No, but I've heard and read some that say it has to be...
JimMills:
Hi Holly!
zette:
That's silly, when you think about it. If you don't read stories that have twist endings, it can't be true. Read the current Analog or Asimov's and you'll see what I mean.
zette:
Hi Holly!
hollylisle:
Hi. Just checking out the HTML. It was enabled.
hollylisle:
zette:
It wasn't working here. Wonder why. Not a big deal, just meant no pictures tonight.
hollylisle:
Hmmmm. I wonder why those aren't working. Everything for the board is enabled.
hollylisle:
How was class?
zette:
On the other hand, no smiley faces, either. There is a god...
hollylisle:
<snarf!>
zette:
I hope it went well.
JimMills:
Fairly well... I was stuck, but I'm working on the story now...
zette:
Everyone remember, next class is the 14th. You should have most, if not all, of a short story by then!
zette:
Okay, this is it people. Last call for questions before I take this stuff and make a transcript to post!
Lazette Gifford
Moderator, Holly Lisle's Forward Motion for Writers
Managing Editor, Holly Lisle's Vision (
http://lazette.net/vision)
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http://www.sff.net/estand)
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