<@Zette> There we are! Okay, let's get going!
<@Zette> First, how is everyone doing on their stories?
<CailinHe> Quite well, as far as I've gone. I'm nearing the highest point of the story.
<@Zette> That's great Cailin! I know you were having trouble getting started, so I'm glad it's going well!
<@Zette> I assume it's managing to stay a short story?
<Cailin> I'd better not have any
more trouble -- I've promised three more!
<Cailin> Yes.
<@Zette> Once you get the feel for them, they get easier. How about anyone else?
<rnw2000> so... I should confess that I had started a day before the first day of class. I've finished one, and 50% through a second (3000 words each)
<@Zette> Not bad!
<rnw2000> I'd decided to write a novel one short story @ a time... so my 2 shortz are related...
<@Zette> I finished one for the class, but I have to confess that I'm not happy with it. Which will bring us to rewriting -- something we'll cover a little today.
<@Zette> I set a lot of short stories in the same universe, but they're rarely related.
<@Zette> Let's look at the question of markets, though.
<rnw2000> so... I guess 'same universe' would have been more accurate ... sorry
<@Zette> There's always a question of whether you should write 'to a market.' That means to choose a magazine and try to write something specifically for that magazine.
<@Zette> That's easier to do in nonfiction than in fiction.
<@Zette> You can get a feel for what an editor wants, of course -- but there are problems with trying to mimic some trend. Quite often, those stories were bought (for the major magazines) a year before. By the time you read them, the editor is already on to the next trend.
<@Zette> And, as an added problem, everyone else has read the stories and are trying to write the latest 'nano/cyber/whatever' trend story as well.
<@Zette> Quite often, it's far better to not consciously try to write something just because you happen to see a lot of it just then. If you truly come up with a neat idea, by all means go for it -- but just be aware that there can be problems.
<@Zette> That doesn't mean you shouldn't study the market. Studying will help you with more general problems -- do these people take first person stories? Does the editor say in his guidelines that he hates stories with talking animals? Always things to know.
<rnw2000> is this better/different from Writer's Market?
<@Zette> This is an excellent book for fiction writers. If you are going to do nonfiction, you might as well go for the full Writer's Market -- but this one is a little cheaper, and covers only fiction.
<@Zette> And you don't really have to buy one every single year. Every two or three ought to be enough, though there will be a lot of changes.
<@Zette> As it happens, I have both. But then I have the children's market one, and probably a couple others as well.
<Cailin> I've seen that. It's easier to find the information in it than in the full Writer's Market.
<@Zette> Yes, it is. I use it far more often that the full version.
<@Zette> And, by the way, it's a great way to get ideas. You can kind of thumb through the sections, look at what different editors want --and sometimes that will trigger an idea.
<@Zette> So, if you don't plan to write articles or nonfiction pieces of other types, this is the way to go.
<@Zette> Notice, also, that they are starting to list electronic markets. We're going to see that grow, especially as the e-markets become better funded.
<@Zette> Knowing your market isn't always possible when you're trying to place a story that's been rejected at all the markets you do know. This, at least, allows you to explore some of the other places, even if you can't get a copy of the actual magazine.
<@Zette> And stories will be rejected. Many times, and for reasons that quite often have nothing to do with how well written they are. It can be rejected because the editor just bought something close to it, or he doesn't like short male lead characters, or he has a headache that day and nothing looks good.
<rnw2000> how often, if ever, do you re-submit?
<@Zette> Remember that the person on the other side of the submission is really no different than the rest of us. Good and bad days, tastes that are going to be different than yours -- any number of things can have a bearing on that decision.
<@Zette> Never to the same place, unless they specifically ask for a rewrite.
<rnw2000> Aw man, really? (Does that go the same for agents? I know, beyond the scope of the class, sorry)
<@Zette> To other places -- as many as you can find until it sells. However, if you keep getting rejections that say the same thing, it might be wise to look at what they're saying.
<@Zette> Yes, it does. You can always send them something new, though.
<@Zette> Or, for an agent... you might say that you've done a major rewrite (if you have) and would they look at it again.
<rnw2000> Okay... I've just been rejected @ the query-letter level by every reputable agent... <shrug> gotta write another novel, i guess
<rnw2000> ... but come on. Back to short stories
<@Zette> Go for other agents as well.
<@Zette> Okay. Short stories. Cover letters...
<Cailin> Should you get an agent when you start selling short stories, or is that just for novels?
rnw2000 sorry. I really didn't want to side-track your class.
<@Zette> That's all right. It doesn't hurt to get a few other answers. I don't expect you guys to do nothing but write short stories, after all.
<@Zette> And you do know that agents aren't interested in short story sales, right?
rnw2000 yeah. I'm writing shortz to get 'traction' for my novel, if possible
rnw2000 I'm very goal oriented <g>
<@Zette> If you have not written at least one novel, don't try to get an agent. They make their money on book sales, and they aren't going to make anything on short stories. Not enough money there to worry about.
<@Zette> Anyway, cover letters. Cover letters for short stories are a little different than those for novels.
<@Zette> If you have other sales, you can mention them. If they are e-publications, and you're trying to sell to print -- don't bother to mention them, though.
<@Zette> It's going to be a couple more years before any of the ezine mags have enough of a reputation to mean anything to print people.
<@Zette> Be sure you know the name of the editor when you send the story. It shows that you've done at least the minimum amount of research.
<rnw2000> Where does one get the editors name? From the front cover of the mag?
<rnw2000> (Isn't that reaching too high, to take the person who is named in the magazine? Wont he/she have minions?)
<@Zette> There is a masthead in all magazines. They will say who is the editor, or the fiction editor, of whatever. You can also get them from the Writer's Market books.
<@Zette> No, that's what an editor does.
<@Zette> You address material to F&SF to Gordon Van Gelder, to Asimov's to Gardner Dozois
<rnw2000> ... you read my mind...
<@Zette> If, in the magazine or the listing in Writer's Market, they say someone else, you send it to them.
<@Zette> The body of the letter shouldn't be much more than something like this: "Enclosed is my science fiction short story, Triad. The story is approximately 3,300 words long."
<@Zette> You can do a one line description if you like -- but NEVER go on about the story in the cover letter.
<rnw2000> No full-story synopsis? Just a one-sentence pigeonholing?
<@Zette> Yes. These are SHORT stories, not novels. They don't want to know the story before they read it. They don't need to.
<@Zette> No synopsis, no outlines -- it's one of the best parts of writing short stories. (grin)
<@Zette> And never do paragraphs about what inspired you to write this story. Again, it's not important. The editor doesn't care what got you to write the story, they're just going to look at the story and find out if they like it.
<@Zette> Another thing to consider -- tell the editor that the manuscript is disposable.
<Jenny> They prefer that?
<@Zette> In this day, where we can just print out another copy, it makes no sense to pay to have a manuscript returned.
<@Zette> Yes, I've heard that they do. It's far easier to put a rejection slip in an SASE and drop it in the mail. And what are you going to do with a manuscript that has fingerprint marks, coffee stains, etc.? And they do, sometimes, come back that way.
<@Zette> One thing I've learned is to put a postcard in the submission package. The postcard is addressed to me and on the back it says 'please drop in the mail when you receive this package.' That lets me know that it really did get there. Always make sure there is a stamp on it, over course.
<@Zette> You can buy packages of plain white postcards for your printer. They're easy to do in groups, and save a lot of hair pulling later.
<@Zette> Questions so far?
<rnw2000> Um. On the subject of 'knowing the market'... how can you discover if mild profanity is acceptable? Write to the market ahead of time?
<rnw2000> I know you could read a few issues, but just cuz it's not there, doesn't mean they are screening it out.
<@Zette> Read the magazine, if you can. If not... send the story and let them decide. They'll let you know.
<@Zette> If you think the story is good for the market, always give it a try.
<rnw2000> okay.
<@Zette> And check the Writer's Market listing -- quite often they will say 'no profanity' if that's their absolute rule.
<@Zette> Send for guidelines to any magazines orr check on line for the guidelines. Quite a few places have them here, now.
<rnw2000> And "no multiple submissions" is fairly standard, right?
<@Zette> The difference between a short story submission and a novel submission is that you don't have to try and get the editor interested in the story before they look at it. In a novel, a synopsis and outline has to do that work. In a short story submission, the story has to sell itself.
<@Zette> Yes, that is very common. And it can be taken two ways...
<@Zette> First, don't submit the same story to multiple magazines at the same time. If it's really good (and you honestly think it is, don't you? Otherwise go rewrite it again), then you could get more than one acceptance. Which editor are you going to piss off by saying you sold it elsewhere?
<@Zette> The other one is sending more than one story to the same editor. This isn't really forbidden -- but why would you compete with yourself for that one open spot?
<@Zette> Don't get in a hurry, in other words. This is not a get rich quick sort of job. Look professional, above all else.
<@Zette> Oh! One more thing when submitting! Make sure you know these things about the magazine: What genres they accept and what their word count limitations are!
<Jenny> Is the Microsoft Word word count good for that?
<rnw2000> good question
<@Zette> I hear that it isn't, but I think that's more important for novel than short story. I've always used it, but there are other ways to do the count. I can't give you the formula right now, but it's up on various pages. Check out the SFWA site for it.
<rnw2000> So, I've been asking everyone how they do word count (maybe it is different for novels)
<rnw2000> but it seems that 250 words per page (1 inch all around, Courier 12) is the average/consensus
<rnw2000> (and double spaced).
<@Zette> That works to some degree. However, dialogue will have far less words per page than description, and can throw your count way off.
<rnw2000> Totally true, but typesetters (I'm told) don't care actual word count, but how much space in their magazine it will take up &
this is what they are estimating by word count.
<@Zette> Also, paper print medium publishers are going to be far more worried about how you do that count than epublishers.
<@Zette> Maybe, but magazine editors are also paying you per word. They are NOT going to be happy if you have badly over counted, because you have a lot of dialogue.
<rnw2000> hehe <g>
<rnw2000> "I estimate this is four million words!"
<@Zette> But still, my suggestion is to keep an eye on places like SFWA, where they will post 'official' word on material like this.
<rnw2000> good point.
<@Zette> And, if you happen to get lucky enough to meet with specific editors, ask them how they want it done.
<@Zette> And check their guidelines. They'll often tell you straight out how to do word count for their publication.
<Jenny> So how do you meet with specific editors?
<@Zette> In the SF/Fantasy genre -- you go to conventions.
<rnw2000> Slightly off-topic, but what are the must-attend conventions within the sf/f genre?
<@Zette> I've met (but they wouldn't remember me) Gardner Dozois and Gorden Van Gelder. Also many epublication editors, some of whom would (and do) remember me.
<@Zette> Any in your area that have good guests
<@Zette> There are not absolute 'must attend' ones. There are a lot of really good ones. I've gone to conventions all over the country, small and large.
<@Zette> If you can afford it, go to WorldCon or World Fantasy Con, if only for the chance to see how really large and wonderful the genres are.
<@Zette> And the panels are wonderful at the larger conventions!
<@Zette> Though, to be honest, I've seen some really good ones at the smaller cons as well.
<Jenny> How expensive are they?
<@Zette> Depends on the convention. WorldCon is $180 to get in -- no, now it's up to $200, past prereg date. Hotel room for four or five days, plane fare -- it all adds up.
<@Zette> A local convention will usually only run about $30 for the weekend, and if you are close enough, you don't have to stay in a hotel.
<rnw2000> But, is WorldCon the kind of place that's wanna-be friendly... or is it a professional's only club?
<@Zette> It is a gathering of fans. There are lots of writer-panels, and a writer's workshop. It's very friendly.
<rnw2000>
<@Zette> The number of people at WorldCon is usually several thousand, by the way.
<@Zette> A local con would be lucky to get five hundred.
<@Zette> World Fantasy Con limits the number of people who can attend to 750. It may be more now, but you pretty much have to pre-register for that one.
<@Zette> By the way, going to conventions and meeting 'pros' is no guarantee of getting published. There are a lot of writers out there. You have to do it by talent.
<@Zette> And very hard work.
<Jenny> I don't think there's any guarantee of getting published, ever.
<@Zette> No, there really isn't. But people who are willing to work at it have a much better chance than those who think that it's easy money.
<@Zette> Anything else any of you want to ask?
<rnw2000> So, when submitting a story to a market, is the package: an SASE, the 3-4 sentence cover letter, and the full story?
<rnw2000> (and maybe that postcard you mentioned?)
<@Zette> That's about it, yes!
<rnw2000> okay. Thanks
<@Zette> Oh, and make sure the SASE is addressed to you. It's easy, especially when you're excited about submitting something, to put the publisher's address on the envelope. That won't help. (grin)
<@Zette> Ah! One more thing! If you are sending a cover letter for an SF story DO NOT CALL IT SCI-FI!
<rnw2000> uh... okay. why?
<@Zette> Some editors have no problem with this, but several (and readers as well) consider Sci-fi to be the media side of the genre, and it's often used as a derogatory term for a badly written SF (or science fiction) story.
<rnw2000> Okay... is it okay to say "here is my 3300 word science fiction story" .. or must the science fiction label be avoided?
<@Zette> It may not make a difference to most people, but it's better not to take the chance. Use SF or science fiction for the description. You can't go wrong with those.
<Cailin> Is "mythical fantasy" an acceptable description?
rnw2000 okay... just the skiffy is potentially negative. I get it.
<@Zette> Science fiction is the proper term. They buy science fiction. They don't buy Sci-fi (which is, in this case, badly written Star Trek/Star Wars stories with the names filed off and no better technology.)
<@Zette> Oh yes, Cailin. That's a good description.
<Jenny> I don't know what it means. What's 'mythical' fantasy?
<Cailin> Thanks! That's what
I call what I write, but I wasn't sure what everyone
else calls it.
<rnw2000> So... Cailin's plan worked... you'll have to read it to find out
<Jenny> I guess so. <G>
<Cailin> It's fantasy writing that makes use of mythical elements. Charles de Lint and Terri Windling are the best of this field.
<@Zette> There are a lot of different designations for types of fantasy. You can just say fantasy and be safe, but that's not a bad description as well.
<Cailin> If I say
mythopoetics I get a bunch of blank looks.
<Jenny> Um...I still don't know what that means. Specific, extant myths?
<Cailin> I draw heavily from Celtic myth. Others use Native American
<Cailin> Charles used both in the same novel more than once, and it came off brilliantly.
<Jenny> Oh. Got it.
<@Zette> One last thing we're going to cover is just a little bit on the dreaded art of rewriting.
<@Zette> I know that quite a few writers really dread rewriting. They get bored. They've already told the story and they don't want to rework it again. There are no spelling errors, and the grammar is good, so why bother, right?
<@Zette> No story is ever perfect in the first draft. Or in the second... or ever, really.
<@Zette> However, you will be amazed (and often appalled) at what you can find in your story if you do two things.
<@Zette> First -- set the story aside for a couple weeks, at the very least.
<@Zette> Go on and write other things. Don't try to rewrite the moment you finish.
<@Zette> Second, if you find (like me) that you have trouble getting detail into a story, try this trick: Start at the very last page and work your way forward, putting some bit of description on every page.
<@Zette> Sound, scent, touch, taste, sight -- whatever. Colors, textures -- but start at the end. This keeps you from reading through the story scene by scene, and seeing things in your mind that are not there on the paper.
<Cailin> That makes sense. {flushes guiltily}
<@Zette> Oh, it's an easy one to mess up on. I HAVE to rewrite in this way. I get caught up in the story, and I know what it looks like -- but I don't realize that it's not there on the paper.
<@Zette> Or on the screen. (grin) I started back in the dark ages, with manual typewriters...
<@Zette> Any questions?
<Jenny> Regarding a critique group--do you put up the rough draft or the two-weeks-later draft?
<@Zette> I'd put up the best draft you do. Two weeks is fine. Jim just wanted a group, so I thought I better get it up.
<Jenny> I meant any critique group.
<Cailin> Is it for the stories we worked on in class, or can we put up others?
<rnw2000> Jenny... probably put up what you want others to read
<@Zette> Ah! With critique groups, I would always do the same -- always the best you can make it before you give it to others. Think of them as first step editors -- you want to present your best work.
<@Zette> For stories in the class, Cailin. At least for now.
<@Zette> Any other short story questions?
rnw2000 thank you. no more questions.
<@Zette> (Grin)
<@Zette> Well, we seem to have gotten through all the classes!
<rnw2000> Ah. What's next? Will we form a support group?
<Cailin> And nicely, too.
<Jenny> <applause> Thank you for having it. <G>
<@Zette> I just hope it was helpful. I've never done a class thingy before.
<@Zette> I think we have a support group. It's called Holly Lisle's Forward Motion for Writers. (grin)
rnw2000 Thank you Zette. Great job. Great class.
<@Zette> I suppose now we should all go off and write something... (grin)