<@Jim2> We have some time to kill before the workshop... anything you'd like to discuss?
<Jehane> Nothing I can think of at the moment
<Jehane> Well, it's more society building than worldbuilding, but I'd like to bounce a few ideas off someone.
<@Jim2> go ahead.
<Jehane> My main country (not the whole world) has the church separate to the state.
<Jehane> The state is patriarchal monarchy - strictly patriarchal, the throne goes to distant cousins rather than daughters.
<Jehane> The church is matriarchal, and only women may serve as high priestesses.
<@Jim2> Sounds like a good source of conflict and tension. What's the question?
<Jehane> Don't know yet, just trying to sort it allout in my head.
<@Jim> I see. Well, you have precedents you can study, like Henry VIII, the Catholic Church and the Church of England.
<@Jim> I'm sure there are other political-religious situations you could study. You may want to consider joining the developing mythologies class.
<Jehane> Did think about it, but I've been very busy the past couple of weeks (had a visitor).
<Jehane> Plus I'm a shiftworker and can't always make a set day/time.
<@Jim> Ah. Well, the class runs 3 months and I don't think Lynn's too keen on the idea of people not starting at the beginning. But she'll probably run it again next winter or so. The time issue could be a kicker, but you could always read transcripts, too.
<Jehane> I"ll read the transcripts if they're up.
<@Jim> They are, but they're on a private board. You'll have to ask Lynn for access.
<@Jim> Welcome, anonymous one!
<@Jim> Hi Alan! :}
<Jehane> Does it deal with religions only, because what I really need is socio-political systems.
<Jehane> Hello Alan
<Alan> hello
<@Jim> The focus so far has been on religions (mythos). She may get into that later.
<Alan> What are we discussing tonight
<@Jim> Worldbuilding. We were talking about socio-political stuff. What would you like to discuss?
<Alan> That sounds good to me
<@Jim> Jehane said, "My main country (not the whole world) has the church separate to the state. The state is patriarchal monarchy - strictly patriarchal, the throne goes to distant cousins rather than daughters. The church is matriarchal, and only women may serve as high priestesses.
<@Jim> Do you have any specific questions, Jehane?
<Jehane> No, just writing down some thoughts at the moment.
<Jehane> Maybe Alan has some questions?
<@Jim> What would you like to talk about, Alan?
<Alan> Not really. I just stopped in to see what is going on
<Alan> I was hoping that the discussion would spark some ideas like it usually does.
<Jehane> Well Jim, do you have any questions?
<Jehane> Actually I come here because I like worldbuilding, not because I have a specific question.
<Alan> Hi Andi
<@Jim> Sometimes it does... lol Jehane... well... what effects do you think it would have on a world's culture and politics if the 'gods' were real people, showed up, exhibited great power, and generally told people what to do?
<@Jim> Hi Andi!
Andi My chat window crashed. Could you say "Bye!" for me there?
<Jehane> suddenly, or as a matter of course?
<Jehane> Hi Andi
Andi Hi all!
<Jehane> Assuming suddenly...It depends on how seriously they take their religion/gods
<Andi> Hi all!
<@Jim> J: Been that way for a long time... one or two thousand years.
<Andi> Well, I'd have to wonder what their relationships were with the gods before I could respond to that.
<@Jim> A: I 'byed' them for you.
<Andi> Not all gods are worshipped with reverence, after all. Many were worshipped out of fear.
<Andi> Dankers, Jim.
<Jehane> The high priests would not like it since they would no loinger be the voice of god - the gods would have their own voices.
<@Jim> True... and with what these gods can do, they
would be feared. But some are kindly and would be loved.
<Jehane> Do the gods act true to their reputation?
<@Jim> The high priests would have been raised with the situation all their lives, J.
<Alan> The growth of the people might be stunted because they can always look to the gods for answers or help.
<Andi> As a matter of course, the Greeks worshipped out of fear--they did their rites to keep the gods FROM noticing them. Being "blessed" by a god was a terrible, terrible thing to their culture. Their legends were told as Europeans told fairy tales--to teach children what NOT to do.
<@Jim> J: Usually they do.
<Andi> My next question would be: HOW do they come among people?
<@Jim> Teleport, usually. They are also master shapeshifters, so they can appear as giants or as any man or woman... or beast.
<Jehane> I would say the society would become a theocracy - how could a mortal rule when there are gods around?
<@Jim> Good point, J.
<Andi> No, that's not what I meant,. Jim, sorry. I meant--do people KNOW they're gods when they're here, or do they come in disguise?
<Jehane> Unless the gods were not interested in ruling - but they'd surely interfere, just as in Ancient Greece
<@Jim> They aren't interested in the day to day details... but they are interested in using people and manipulating events for their own ends.
<Alan> How much aid or advice do the gods dispense?
<Jehane> It would be like a constant political campaign, each gods trying to get more followers and to convert people. OR destroy the opposition.
<Andi> That would depend on what the gods' relationship and need for worship is, Je. I can see where it's only a sign of loyalty rather than a source of power.
<@Jim> A: However much they choose. J: True. Good points.
<@Jim> While the 'gods' can wield a lot of power, it's not without limits. They still need armies of humans if they're going to influence events in the world.
<Alan> Do the people rely on the gods to solve problems for them or do things for themselves?
<@Jim> Mostly they do things for themselves... though they may seek aid for healing or sometimes for political advantages.
<Jehane> So there'll be constant warring between gods as they seek dominance.
<Andi> Question, Jim: Is this the kind of thing you want for your gods? Is this helping?
<@Jim> I'm kind of developing this as I go... there are several 'pantheons' and the leaders of those pantheons generally forbid fights between the gods.
<Andi> What is the gods' purpose for coming to earth anyway?
<@Jim> I'm not sure, Andi. I am building it as I go... but I want magic and the immortal mages became powerful gods... with servants who figure prominently in the story I'm working on.
<Andi> Is this for the class?
<Jehane> How do followers determine their faith? Do people of a particular region worship particular gods?
<@Jim> Yes. Not Earth... Arra... they didn't become gods until after they mastered magic.
<Andi> First off, you have to figure out what the gods have to gain by doing this. If they have nothing to gain from it (and "just for the helluva" counts), then they wouldn't bother doing it.
<@Jim> J: I haven't figured that out yet, but the pantheons are basically North, South, East and West.
<Andi> This has a Chinese or other Oriental flare to it, right, Jim?
<Jehane> If they have transcened the mortal plane, why aren' they trying to go further still?
<@Jim> A: I tend to agree... they wouldn't do it just cause they're nice guys wanting to help others. The East faction is Oriental-like. J: I haven't worked it out that far.
<Jehane> It reminds me of Jonathon Livingston Seagull - has anyone read that?
<Andi> The Oriental Culture was about perserving the Status Quo at all costs. Are you figuring that in anywhere, or are you just taking the trimmings of it?
<@Jim> Heard of it. Haven't read it.
<Dan> Did I make it in?
<Andi> A few hundred years ago, Jehane.
<Andi> You're in, Dan.
<@Jim> Hi Dan. A: In the East, yes. Not the same motivations in the West.
<Andi> It's a 20 minute read if you're stump-stupid, Dan. I think it's hard to find now, though.
<Dan> Your talking only chinese right Andi?
<Jehane> Hi Dan
<Dan> Japanese were very progressive.
<Andi> I'm talking pretty much Chinese, Japanese and, frankly, Egyptian. Your place in afterlives were valued by how much you maintained the status quo while you were alive. Frightening, eh?
<Andi> June tried to get in, but crashed thrice. Said she'd love to pop in, but can't. <s>
<Andi> We're talking ancient, Dan--pre-Westernization.
<Dan> Japanese did believe in progrssion prior to westernization - but your right in seclusion.
<Andi> Are you talking about the transcending part being like Jonathon, Jehane?
<@Jim> We could go to the alternate classroom if she'd like to join us. Jonathan Livingston Seagull is available from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380012863/qid=998872769/sr=2-1/002-2330430-9133629
<Andi> June has problems posting in ALL classrooms. As soon as she does, her computer locks up & it's an automatic 3 reboot cycle to get back online.
<Jehane> Yes. JLS transcended the mortal plane only to find himself in yet another plane of existence, in which there was more to learn.
<Andi> That's what I was thinking too, Jehane. Jim--find it at a used bookstore, honestly.
<Dan> Ever seen "Defending your Life" by Albert Brooks, it's on here now actually!?
<Jehane> It's been out for more than 20 years. SHould have no trouble finding a used copy.
<@Jim> Here's the blurb: "Most gulls don't bother to learn more than the simplest facts of flight--how to get from shore to food and back again," writes author Richard Bach in this allegory about a unique bird named Jonathan Livingston Seagull. "For most gulls it is not flying that matters, but eating. For this gull, though, it was not eating that mattered, but flight." Flight is indeed the metaphor tha
<Andi> I think you've got a lot of thinking left to do, Jim, before you can start thinking about how the gods' showing up is effecting your peoples.
<@Jim> Flight is indeed the metaphor that makes the story soar. Ultimately this is a fable about the importance of seeking a higher purpose in life, even if your flock, tribe, or neighborhood finds your ambition threatening.
<Jehane> D: No, what's it about?
<@Jim> I agree, Andi... but it's an idea I'd like to explore.
<Dan> I disagree, among seagulls, everyone could fly
<Andi> Oh, definitely, Jim--but until you know WHY the Gods are coming down and WHAT they are doing here, how can you know how the people are going to react?
<Dan> He had to go beyond, it was far more than flight!
<Andi> Personally, I thought it was a very vaguely veiled alagory to Jesus Christ--and I was 15 when I read it. <shrug>
<Dan> It's been many years since I read it, but he never FELT he was in the right place.
<Jehane> JC? I would be surprised. Richard Bach is not a big fan of organised religion.
<@Jim> Ok. here's the idea. The 'Gods' are mages that acquired immortality and learned to tap enourmous power. They have to keep worshippers (maybe it's the source of their power) so they are active in the world. This has gone on for a long time.
<Jehane> Then again, I never picked up the Aslan/JC link either.
<Andi> Question: if they have attained godhood by their own magical abilities--HOW would they need worshippers to sustain it?
<Dan> Jim> our world, or building another world?
<Andi> Different world-, Dan.
<@Jim> They attained immortality and a certain amount of power, but by drawing power from the masses, they became truly powerful.
<Andi> So this is part of their magic?
<@Jim> And yes, it's a different world. Yes, it's part of their magic.
<Andi> Did they have to drain this power in order to become gods?
<@Jim> To a degree, yes.
<Jehane> They would spend a large part of their time gathering followers.
<Dan> Jehan, the sacrifice at the Stone Table should have shwn that to you....
<Andi> OK, then that makes sense then.
<@Jim> Think of the Dragons in Holly's Secret Texts... in a way.
<Andi> So they NEED the followers to sustain their "rightful" place in the world. Gotcha.
<Andi> Still haven't read those, Jim, sorry. <s>
<Dan> Any God would.
<Andi> I can't read a book & write a book at the same time.
<@Jim> Great books. You should read 'em. <g>
<Andi> I don't agree, Dan, but that's not what Jim's getting at here.
<Andi> Top of the TBR stack--once I get done with the Maass Class Book. <G>
<Dan> Did you read them?
<Jehane> Dan, I'm not religious, so I didn't get the connection. AFAIK, I was reading (as a child) a child's fantasy novel.
<Andi> AFAIK?
<@Jim> Yes, I've read them. And I read and highlighted the Maass book the week I got it.
<Jehane> As far as i know
<Andi> Thanks.
<Jehane> knew, in that case
<Andi> Can I see if I can summarize what you're getting at, Jim?
<@Jim> Sure.
<Andi> 1. You have human mages who have become so powerful (via magic & soaking up power from others) that they have made themselves into gods.
<Dan> I was raised as a christian, but CSL went beyond my religious upbringing to me, but I could see the likeness when I was only 7.
<Andi> There are four pantheons in this world--one for each Direction.
<Andi> One of them has an Oriental feel to them. The others are up in the air.
<Andi> These pantheons may be at war with each other--I'm not clear on that part.
<Andi> You would like these gods to come down and mess with earthly affairs, but there's lots of unanswered questions here.
<Andi> Why do they do it? What do they do? How much do they want to rule?
<@Jim> Pantheons: West are greek-like, North are Norse-like, South are African-like.
<Andi> KO. June & I can help you on Norse, if you'd like, if you catch us in chat or post questions on the board.
<Andi> Did I get about everything?
<Dan> I evidently came in too late to figure much of this out - I'll leave now and read the transcript later, then I'll make comments.
<Andi> June can also help you in Greek--she was a Classics major in college.
<Andi> Take it easy, Dan!
<@Jim> Yes, Andi, and I've been researching Norse for the Mythology class. Why do they do it: to control worshippers. What do they do: mostly advise, some healing, some magical aid, occasionally they blow up things like city blocks, but the other gods frown on that.
<@Jim> How much do they want to rule? Only as much as is needed to assure worshippers, preferably in growing numbers.
<Andi> LOL! Well, they were never really known for doing things small, were they?
Don't know if my reference post helped before I bailed the class.
<Andi> Here's a question, Jim: Do they have active breeding programs? Do the gods want them to have LOTS of children to be brought up "properly"? Are large families rewarded?
<@Jim> I'll have to look up the post you mentioned. Yes on breeding. Good idea. They have to have food and such to support them of course, and humankind came to this world and found it to be a bit hostile.
<@Jim> So they had to fortify to survive (think of suddunly finding yourself living in Jurassic Park -- the whole World is like that).
<Andi> Sorry, I've got to go, guys. Time to feed the hounds, bathe & start thinking about bed. <s> I hate having to get up so bloody early in the morning.
<Jehane> so humans aren't native to this planet?
<Andi> Ciao!
<@Jim> Bye Andi -- thanks for the comments! J: non originally, no. they've been there about 2,000 years.
<Jehane> BYe Ansi
<Jehane> Andi, I mean
<@Jim> a little over 2,100 years.
<Jehane> Jim, the gods were human originally, so did they become gods then take their followers to this other planet, or did they become gods on this planet?
<@Jim> They became gods on Arra, after coming to this planet or parallel dimension.
<Jehane> So they had to overcome the harshness of this planet without the aid of gods.
<@Jim> Yes, they did. Some learned to work magic... it's a magic-active world. It's a mystery how they came here... the people on Arra have some clues and it may figure into the story as a subplot. Not sure yet.
<Jehane> Why do the people now need gods? Is it a convenience thing, like electricity?
<@Jim> In part, the gods protect them from the dinosaurs, tho they don't call them that... they call them hunter lizards, or grazing lizards.
<@Jim> This is a good discussion. It's really helping me flesh out some of the ideas pecolating in my head. Thanks! <g>
<Jehane> Not terrible lizards?
<@Jim> Sort of... raptors, t-rex's...
<@Jim> things like that.
<@Jim> Dan - I'll post the transcript after the class... on the class transcripts board... if you want to read it.
<Jehane> How did the original people survive the lizards without gods to protect them AND become gods?
<@Jim> oops, he's gone.
<@Jim> That's lost in antiquity, tho they may find old references in the course of the story... essentially, they ran and hid until one or more of them developed potent magic.
<Jehane> Do the gods destroy the lizards? That could do interesting things to the ecology.
<Jehane> Actually, just having the introduced human species wreaking magic would do interesting things to ecology
<@Jim> No. Only selectively. The lizards are herd beasts for some... they allow the hunters to survive to maintain the ecology and because it'd be so much trouble to hunt them all. There are some who strive to keep the human interference to a minimum... though it's a losing battle.
<@Jim> Mostly the gods have devised ways of keeping the lizards out of the cities, towns and crop areas, and ways of protecting travelers.
<@Jim> The humans are the only mammals on Arra,
<Jehane> This is a huge advantage to them. It helps explain how they outrun the reptiles.
<Jehane> And perhaps helps them hunt.
<@Jim> "This" meaning the magic or the only mammals?
<Jehane> THe only mammals.
<Jehane> Assuming the other animals are either reptilian or fish.
<@Jim> The lizards can be quite fast. Current speculation is that Trex could run much faster than a man.
<Jehane> Yes, but the jury's still out on that one.
<@Jim> True, but it makes sense in a lot of ways. Everyone has an opinion, of course.
<Jehane> Also, it would suggest that many dinosaurs were not true reptiles.
<@Jim> No, they weren't. They were the precursors of common species still on earth. Ever see a bird?
<@Jim> Of course, some
were true reptiles. Alligators and crocodiles, for example.
<Jehane> From what I remember, birds were descended from reptiles, which were early dinosaurs.
<Jehane> Later dinosaurs diverged and you had more dinosaurs, and bird prototypes
<Jehane> eg the famous archaeopteryx
<@Jim> That's also a matter of conjecture. Current thought is that the birds may have come earlier. I'm not an expert, though. We should ask Sarah (Dolphin Girl).
<Jehane> been a while since i looked at palaeontology
<@Jim> I've been watching a lot of the current shows on the Discovery Science channel. Fascinating subjects.
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