The following reports are typed by me and are excerpts of what the panel participants said, sometimes with audience questions and comments inserted. I didn't get every word – I don't type that fast. I did the best I could to be accurate. If you have questions, please ask and I'll try to clarify from memory, but I am not an expert in many of these areas.
I hope they are of some use to you.
-- Jim
Dragons of the East, Book 1: Lord of Change has been submitted.
(early chapters may be read at my forum: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/74198) Dragons of the East, Book 2: The Kirin is in progress.
email: Jim@HollyLisle.com
Don't let reality spoil your dreams!
Charles Petit - Attorney for authors and artists, intellectual property and internet piracy
Sean Mead - Attorney, Internet and computer law
Mel. White - artist, editor, has been working on copyright for artists and writers since 1993
Pat Sayre McCoy - law librarian, Univ. of Chicago.
American vs. International copyright law.
McCoy: US Copyright law is based on the copyright law of Great Britain 1702; it transferred rights to the author and introduced royalties. New technologies have historically given rise to expansions to copyright law, i.e.: photography, copy technology, motion pictures, etc. The Internet and computer tech: The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) protects works from the date of completion or presentation, and it does not have to be published or distributed for copyright. It is NOT true that you can copy and distribute any work on the Internet without permission.
White: Establish copyright by putting "Copyright", the date, and your name. Do not use a fannish alias; you must use a legally distinctive and recognizable name. If you put your work in "public domain" (i.e.: it's free with no copyright notice), then you have no leg to stand on. Someone "swiped" a web site (i.e.: copied and reproduced all material) -- Michael Whalen, Glass Onion site, high quality scans and thumbnails of his art -- one of the most ripped off artists in cyberspace. He has cancer, no day job and makes no money if he doesn't sell his work. Internet image theft is causing a huge problem. Not all countries ascribe to copyright treaty. Trying to find legal representation and bring legal recourse can be very difficult. Putting your stuff on the Internet is not always a good idea. If you want to make sales, it is less effective to post on a web page than if you go to a convention or buy an ad in a targeted magazine. If you put up text, do NOT put up full text. Images: low res, and put your name and copyright on it and "Not for Distribution" -- paste it across the image -- if they like the image, maybe they'll buy a print. Your best ad is physical and in-person.
Petit: Copy protection in general, such as software, is generally regarded as ineffective. Copy protection is not the way to go. You aren't worried about the average down-loader. You are worried about the guy making illicit copies, such as CDs, and selling them.
Mead: The only thing copy protection does is annoy those who are spending money to buy your stuff. Authors: the Internet gives some nice opportunities in theory, but we have yet to see many people making much money, with a few exceptions. You may be able to encourage readership and sales, but it makes illicit copies very easy. Fair use analysis is complex. You don't really know if you have it or not until the jury decides the issue. Don't take someone's stuff. If you have high value items, don't put them on the web. It will be taken. If you find you have been copied, you can talk to the ISP. Go to Netsol.com and find the name of the ISP contact. Most ISPs react by immediately pulling possibly offending material. EULAs: End User License Agreements, i.e.: click here to agree to license agreement. Most of them are Draconian and mean that you give up your copyright. Read them carefully. The site does not want to get sued, and you need to know if you are giving up (for example) perpetual non-exclusive rights and they can take it, copy it and run it for free for as long as they want.
McCoy: If you buy software, if you open it, you have made a contract that supercedes copyright law. They are one-sided contracts, usually. But can you afford to take it to court?
Petit: Hill vs. Gateway 2000 suit regarding warrantee and copyright. Shrink-wrap licenses are enforceable.
Mead: You aren't going to win; you should, but you won't. Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) cannot always be enforced. Contracts can supercede copyright law and other regulations.
UCITA (Uniform Commercial Interchange Transfer Act) is maybe going to be a law, maybe not. Do not link to a site because you like the site. The link itself could be an infringement. Some say it is acceptable, some say not. It has not gone through the courts, but you could be found liable for providing a link. If you have someone else develop a web site for you, make sure you specify 'work for hire' agreement so that you own the web pages, or they may own your stuff, including the stuff you created and had them put up on a web page for you. National Writer's Union: has taken on NY Times, Xerox, etc. Most publishers assume they have all electronic rights to your work if they have bought it in any shape or form (i.e.: sold your story to a magazine for first pub rights).
Petit: If you believe you have anything that may have been sold by Carl Uncover, go to the web site www.uncoversettlement.com before October to see if you are eligible for a settlement. www.nolo.com has a book called Copyright by Steven Fishman, includes copyright language on a CD that may be used. Look through it.
McCoy: Nolo press publishes simple language contracts and forms for the public. It is reputable material.
Mead: Get the work for hire agreement before the work begins. If you are using agents (little pieces of code that goes out and search the web), this is still in legal battle regarding copyright.
McCoy: Even if you are in the right, if you are up against a big company, they have bigger lawyers and can make it expensive for you to try to recoup damages.
Petit: Harlan Ellison has vigorously pursued copyright infringement. There are aspects to the copyright law that are legally enforceable under criminal law. The FBI can arrest people and take them to court if they deem it appropriate.
Mead: FSF.ORG (Free Software Foundation) has an interpreting copyright (copyleft) license. Public Domain: just because the author didn't sue the last 4,000 people that copied your stuff, doesn't mean that the author can't sue the next guy. The 1976 act does not have a use it or lose it clause.
Cuba is not a signatory to the Byrne Convention (International Copyright Law). Some countries are and some are not.
You do not have to mark your work for it to be copyrighted in the US, since 1978.
Petit: US or non-US copyright is because of Mickey Mouse, so that Mickey Mouse will not fall into public domain. Mickey is a trademark, as a famous image, there may be something called an unfair competition. US copyright law is less respectful of author's rights than many other copyright laws in the world. Moral Rights allow you to control the later use of the material even when sold for use. The DMCA is different from the 1996 copyright act that the US signed. There is nothing in our copyright law that says "Moral Rights" but contracts may include moral rights under the exploitation of a right. Visual, audio and text materials have different terms of copyright. An audio piece can be played or sung by anyone if they pay the appropriate royalty. Visual media have other restrictions. Text is the tough one: There is no such thing as a fair use guideline. Leave it to the publisher's lawyer to determine if copying words is fair use. If you have a question in your mind, you need a lawyer.
ePublishing: read their contracts. Know what you are signing away. You are only protected against illicit copies if you are willing to put the money into prosecuting theft.
McCoy: The Internet has made sociopaths a lot more able to find victims.
Mead: Script kiddies can find a site where someone has made a tool to crack a protection scheme and then use that tool.
Petit: Copyright is not the same as registration. ISBR/ISSN is a publisher's number and not legal protection. Copyright is automatic as soon as you save the file, lift pen from paper, etc.
Mead: The advantage of registering before you are infringed is that it entitles you to damages if someone infringes.
Petit: Term of copyright is 75 years. Until the work is published, and that 75 years has not begun to run.
Charles Petit, who is known to many of us as John Savage, has a journal in the same Journal Writing Group to which I belong.
He has put up the first part of his con report, which includes a scathing set of remarks about this particular panel. He was not at all happy with Mel White (whom I see is not quoted here), who plainly did not know anything about the topic, and he has corrected several of her mis-statements in the journal entry.
Look for Part III -- Escape of the Human Sacrifice. It clarifies many questions I've seen asked on this subject. And Petit is a lawyer who practices in this field, so he knows what he's talking about.
Lazette Gifford (zette) -- Community Fantasy/SF, Young Adult Fiction, and E-Publishing Moderator
http://www.lazette.net
***
Another damned thick, square book! Always scribble, scribble, scribble! Eh! Mr. Gibbon? -- William Henry, Duke of Gloucester, upon receiving volume II of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1781)
Teresa Nielson Hayden - History junkie, consulting editor at Tor, edits other people's alternate histories.
Richard Garfinkle - Celestial Matters, alternate history author.
Steven Barnes (M) - Working on a novel in which Islam is the dominant religion.
Robert Charles Wilson - author of Darwinia, Hugo finalist, rewrote history of 20th century.
Harry Harrison - well-known author.
Barnes: What are the basic rules?
Wilson: It's not a single sub-genre. As SF people, we are intellectual otters. We can't see a large body of knowledge without wanting to play in it. You can bend the rules, but don't break them unintentionally. It is a vast open field.
Garfinkle: Don't mess with personalities of history without justification. The rules are what the readers accept.
Harrison: It has only been called Alternate History recently, but is essentially a "what if" story. You won't see much good work because it requires hard work and most writers are very, very lazy. To get things right, you have to do a lot of research. You have to like the study of history to like writing alternate histories. Alternate History buffs will jump on any mistakes you make.
Hayden: Never get guns and ammunition wrong. Cultivate friendships with a few gun nuts and run stuff past them. Don't make historical differences unintentionally. It shouldn't sound like things are moving only with the irresistible will of the author. Character, plot, etc. have to figure into it. AH's where there are major changes in the US and the rest of the world does not change with it are not logical. Respect the moral earnestness of human beings. The world worked out the way it has through great effort. It all does matter morally and earnestly. In AH it is hard to write about a world which no one knows about.
Harrison: In rebel in Time, they go back to the civil war with weapons technology. Knowledge of weapons helps.
Barnes: AH is a form of SF, what-if, etc. I can change one thing and everything must follow logically.
Fatherland with Rutger Hauer was a good alternate history movie.
Garfinkle: The assumption of the transmission of great civilizations from Greece to Rome to N. Europe to the US is not necessarily valid. Find ways to play with it.
Barnes: Inshala, African-based story where the Africans bring white slaves to the US.
G: History requires distance and perspective. Messing with recent events is different.
Harrison: Watch the North Wind Rise by Robert Graves. Good book in which women control religion.
From Audience: A collection of essays titles "What If" pose a number of neat turning points.
Harrison: European nations were eager for the world wars in order to pull their neighbors down and be dominant. The only way Russian history could be changed was by a bloody revolution. Russia had to have a complete upheaval. A constitutional monarchy wouldn't work.
Hayden: People didn't understand how that kind of government could work, and they still don't.
Harrison: It would take an awful lot of change for Germany to have lost immediately. The other European nations had poor armies.
Garfinkle: Find the weak points. If you want to make big changes, it is easier to get your readers to accept it if you start with a small change.
Harrison: Even if it's been done, maybe you can do it over again and do it better.
Hayden: A book titled Guns, Germs and Steel has many interesting ideas.
Wilson: The black hole of research. Everyone's knowledge is an approximation. We each have our own biases. When do I have enough to proceed with my own literature?
Barnes: Do enough research to have a good picture, then write and weasel around what you don't know.
Lynn Flewelling - Fantasy novelist, English/History major.
David Feintuch - Author, medieval fantasy sreies, law and history background.
Lois McMaster Bujold - author, Spirit Ring fantasy set in England. Three time Hugo winner.
David B. Coe (M) - Fantasy author, PhD in History.
There are many possibilities other than borrowing plot lines.
LF: Read a lot of history and find out what framework for the world. Pick your period. Ancient Inventions (book) on Greek, Persian and other Mediterranean details. She has used Greek fire and called it something else, etc. It gives her work a nice level of detail.
DF: It's more interesting if you don't try to follow some historic events. People act the same throughout history. Why are they cruel, rigid and corrupt? Because they were. Always. Is there any reason to think it will improve? Why do we assume that what we know and do know is going to be the standard for the future rather than the past?
LMB: Reading history seems to go with a vision of time as a changing continuum. Change: The future will not be the same as the present or the past. It has changed and it will change. To draw on history is to draw on a different way of being, a different world view. A lot of fantasy is based on history and mythology, twists them around and plays with them. It grows out of myth, fairy tales, Arthurian legends and other historic sources.
Why can't we create histories as we see fit? Can't we just make it up?
LF: No, we can't. A lot of new writers look at movies and media and set out to create a world, but it is a shallow well to draw from compared to doing historical research, human nature and human behavior. This century is a kinder and gentler society. Historically, people were crude.
DF: Familiarity and context are necessary elements. It takes a very brilliant writer to come up with an entirely invented environment that I can follow. We need a context within which we can understand our story. We need to be able to say, yeah, people have done that.
LMB: Select appropriately to the story you are trying to support. You draw attention to some aspects and others are assumed. You have to be careful about the unwritten stuff. Tech level requires attention, even in fantasy. Tech shapes the range of physical possibility: how do they live, medical care, sewage, transportation. You have to think of these things or pull from a model that has them built in. You need imbedded continuity. The wonderful thing about history is it's all real and not copyrighted, so you can use it freely.
DC: What are the pitfalls and dangers?
DF: Getting it right can be just copying. We read for difference, not a history or gothic. If you copy to slavishly, there is nothing new and interesting.
LMB: Trying to put in all of your research is a mistake. "I suffered for my art and now it's your turn." It only belongs in the book if it is a significant detail relevant to your story.
LF: Among the top 5 things I don't like to see: Even though the names are changed, it's clearly the inquisition battling the samurai's. Synthesize. If you're going to steal it, change the paint job. File off the serial numbers, file off the handlebars, etc. We like to see analogies, but not retreads.
DC: What sources do you use? What are good and bad sources?
LF: When I grow up I'm going to go back to college and get an anthropology degree. I have a grave mistrust of anything I find on the internet. Get as close to the source as possible. The color illustrated guide to arms and armor is good.
DC: There is a catalog, Museums Ltd., that has weapons for sale, historically accurate information, details, etc.
DF: I can't read dry, scholarly texts. Mary Renault's detail on ancient world is good, Barbara Tuckman is brilliant for medieval history. William Manchester writes brilliant essays on history and he is wonderful to read. Winston Churchill gives a sense of breadth of history. The Sheriff of Nottingham is a story told from the Sheriff's point of view with the Sheriff as hero. The Random House picture dictionary is nice in that it labels every single part of a ship, for example. Research that is not research: Time magazine cut-away of nuclear sub, details, etc.
LMB: Footnotes are useful. Always read the footnotes. I do cruising reading where I am not looking for anything in particular, then I do research reading where I check twenty books out of the library. Not knowing when to stop is a pitfall of research.
DF: The Internet is a wonderful source, but don't take it as gospel. Use the googol search engine. But don't be too trusting.
DC: I like short cuts when it comes to research. Children's books are good short cuts. "Building a Castle" and "Cross-section of a Castle" are good children's books for how to build castles in your worlds.
LF: Get out to a museum and look at the exhibitions. Kitchen implements, actual door latches, lock and key, etc. I don't need drugs; I just go to museums. They have diaramas of households, with details like tools, dishes, etc.
LMB: Museums give you three-dimension visuals that you can't get from texts or pictures. Internet chat groups can be good for asking 'what are the symptoms of mountain sickness?' or something like that.
DF: Experts are wonderful sources for the lazy researcher. For example: ask a doctor or medical researcher about how to get a particular illness or injury to fit the condition you need.
DC: There is no such thing as a perfect source. If it is crucial to your book, you need independant confirmation of everything.
LF: If you don't have access to a doctor, there are several books available from Writer's Digest. Toxins, for example - there is a sea snake with blunt teeth in the south seas and anesthetizes you, and they don't even know they've been bitten.
DC: What kind of research strategy do you use? When do you know you've had enough?
LF: I start with character, and then design the world around them. I never feel like I have enough research. I research as I go. I edit ad nauseum. You have to stop when you're doing all research and no writing.
DF: I desperately research as I go. I scramble as I write to get the details right. I called up a coach to ask about soccer. I got a lot of info, but used only a few words for the scene.
LMB: Talking with live experts is that they will toss in things you will never think of. Astronauts' hands get tired because they have to brace themselves. This was an idle comment by a NASA doctor that led to a whole race of quaddies, freefall-living beings.
DF: Your assumptions will do you in. Run your work by someone who knows a lot more about those fields than you do. The Darwin Awards are fascinating. A real story: a guy bouncing off a 48th floor window to show how strong it is, one day goes through the window. It's true, but too loopy to use in fiction. Truth really is stranger than fiction.
LF: The victor's write the histories. A little research can find the other side. A book called Eyewitness to History has some good information.
DF: My villains always think they are doing the right thing. They don't wake up one day and say, "I'm going to be the worst villain I can be today."
LMB: I have become very careful with details because there is a fan out there with a PhD who will write you a gleeful letter pointing out how you got it wrong.
DF: Unrealistic economies are a bugaboo. How does the food get there, where do they get it, where are the kitchens, did they know the hero was coming to eat there? Who's taking care of the clothes? Where did they come from?
DC: My bugaboo is language. The hero rides up, clothes perfectly fresh after riding for days, comes up to the castle and says, "Dude!" It just doesn't work.
Stanley Schmidt (M) - Editor, Analog, author of "Aliens and Alien Societies".
Emmett Gard Pittman - Submissions editor for Otherworlds.
Maggie Hogarth - artist, poet, writer, grew up in bilingual household.
Elizabeth Barrette - writer, reviewer, and editor.
Suzanne Alles Blom - writer, "Inca, the Scarlet Fringe" - out in October.
Vera Nazarian - Short story writer, speaks Russian, Armenian, Mandarin, German, etc.
VN: Language will reflect the needs of the society and the basic needs of the individual.
SS: Reverse engineering is not a really good idea; it is thinly disguised to a linguistically knowledgable person. You need to invent the basic structure and use only the words you need.
EB: Writes both SF & Fantasy, looks for words that cannot be translated readily, i.e.: the names of the five genders of an alien race. They can communicate telepathically, by scent, gesture, infrared, virus, etc.
MH: You don't need to know the language to use it for a character. Translating into English, the tone, rhythm and cadence can come through.
Blom: How much do we leave in, and how much do we take out?
SS: Dolphins communicate in stereo and with a much broader spectrum than human beings. They also use sonar to sense their environment. When communicating, they could do so in pictures, almost like telepathy, with their sounds painting a picture for those who hear it.
Niven suggests that we are used to talking to aliens. Men and women have different mentalities. We have animals, pets and plants that we talk to. We talk to machines.
Languages change over time. How did the language change with the species' history.
What does the culture consider taboo? In English, we have curse words about two subjects. Other cultures have different words and different taboos. We write in English, and these concepts can be hard to convey.
What if you have a language and a religion where the "world" is male, neuter or hermaphrodite?
Use brief sections of the language just to give a flavor. You will lose your reader if they have to translate a lot.
If you have a concept that takes two pages to explain it, then explain it once. Thereafter use their word for it.
If I shouldn't quit my day job, what day job should I not quit?
Christy Hardin Smith (M) - new writer, legal practice as a partner in her firm, got an ulcer so she left work.
Raymund Eich - new writer, day job: patent agent.
Carrie Vaughn - new writer, would like to quit the day job.
What jobs are best for authors and which ones should be replaced ASAP?
Christy: Law can be a difficult job, along with management and running a business. Treat writing like a second job.
Carrie: Balance writing and job, make sure you have a job that lets you come home at night and not worry about the job. Bookstore job was good, Assistant for CPA was a good job. If you treat writing like a second job, set goals and keep them. Write, send things out and work that into your schedule. Make it a persistent habit.
Ray: Don't turn on TV, surf web, read books or magazines until you've finished your writing for the day. Create a psychological distance between your day job and your writing.
Christy: Some people are emotionally able to separate themselves from their job easily. Some are not. Writing became an important escape for me. Writing for hobby or career - all of us are people who have picked up a pen and scribbled. The most important thing is to know yourself.
Carrie: There are professional writers who could quit their day jobs and don't. I wanted to write and nothing else. Not having a career has given me incentive to work hard on writing.
Ray: I knew I wanted to be a writer, but I also have a lot of interest in science, but hated doing experiments. Working in patent law is a good job. Getting a feel for the steps in commercializing a scientific process is interesting and can be applied to SF.
Christy: Be honest with yourself. I lived my life according to other people's expectations. I ran in circles. Deep down I really wanted to be just a writer. I got a lot of support from friends on SFF.Net. I started thinking of writing as something I really wanted to do, but it was next to impossible to make time for writing. I tried getting up early; I tried staying up late. It was hard. I just couldn't get enough done on weekends. Working writers can be very successful. Some get up early and write, some write late at night.
Carrie: Your family will never stop asking when you're going to get a real job.
Ray: My reward for writing is to turn on the TV after writing. I ducked the 'real job' question by having a real job.
Christy: I gave my parents heart failure by leaving a legal practice to write. I make excuses to take my laptop and go to the mall to do character sketches. A series of books: "The Artist's Way" is amazing if you can get past the new age language. Keep a journal, go on artist's dates (just you, treat yourself). "The Right to Write" was very helpful.
Carrie: "If You Want to Write" by Breanda Euland, down to earth style. Don't sit in front of your computer all day every day.
Christy: Keep a notebook, a hardback journal - keep story ideas in this journal as the ideas pop into your head. Life flits by. The Hugo award winning story will flit by if you don't make a note of the idea.
Carrie: I wrote every day just to see if I could do it. The more I write, the more I have to write. It's like coffee in the morning. If you want to learn about the publishing business, working in an independent bookstore can be very educational about the publishing process.
Christy: Butt to the chair. If you need to write, the only way to do it is to sit down and do it. (Harlan Ellison).
Ray: I try to be disciplined and write every day. But sometimes you need time to just sit around and recharge.
Carrie: It is possible to get to a point where writing becomes a chore and that's counter productive. Keep a balance.
Christy: Treat your writing as a creative process, but also as a business. There are a lot of things that are not part of what you think of as creative. Promote yourself, do face time at cons, schmooze.
Carrie: I make lots of lists: stories I need to revise and send out, list of stories sent out, stories I am working on, go to a party for your job. Find someone who looks like they know what they are doing and stick with them. Finish what you write and put it in the mail. When it comes back, put it in the mail again. Keep doing it.
Ray: Put it in an envelope and send it off. Buying a drink for Gardner is not going to get you published in Asimov's. Some stories have been rejected eight or ten times and then published. Harry Potter was rejected eight times. Chicken Soup for the Soul was rejected fifty times.
Christy: Don't consider activity with productivity. Critters.org is a good online group.
Carrie: Keep improving.
Christy: Writing is the only profession where getting a nice rejection letter is a big thrill.
Ray: It's easy to psych yourself out in this game. My wife didn't understand why writing was important to me. That's why I'm not married any more. I have writing friends on line. It's important to associate with writers, since they can identify with the difficulties.
Christy: Killing of Trolls with the names of your clients can be very stress-relieving. Writers tend to be readers too.
Tullio Proni (M) - not an author, but made a living off Sci-Fi for 20 years. I make little plastic ray guns.
Yvonne Navarro - Full-time writer of Sci-Fi, mystery and Buffy. I live in the world of dad's free rent, food and phone.
Keith DeCandido - Writer, editor, book packager. Media tie-in novels, short stories. I make more writing than I did in my last day job.
Glen Cook - Writer and huckster, still don't make a living at it.
Josepha Sherman - Full-time writer, fantasy writer, star trek, buffy, bio of Bill Gates (Dark Fantasy) and articles explaining quantum mechanics to 8-year-olds.
Joseph Fleischmann III - I sell books and magazines.
Can you really make a living writing? What do you need to consider before becoming a full-time writer?
Keith: My wife makes a good living so I can fall back on that.
Josepha: I am sole source of support. You can make a living from writing if you look at it creatively and work harder at it than you will at any day job. You have to be willing to write at the drop of a hat, to hustle and publicize yourself. You have to know when to say no. You have to live with the fact that you don't have benefits like a regular paycheck, sick days, disability or health insurance unless you pay for it yourself.
Glen: Fritz Leiber never made more than $5000 in any given year. He lived in a one room place in Venice Beach, CA. I make more money in foreign sales than I do in US sales.
Tullio: It really helps to have some other source of income.
Keith: It is impossible to make a living as a writer if you want to just write your novel, your book, your vision unless your name is Steven King. If you're going to make a living at it, you have to treat it like a job. You have to constantly be hustling for work. I have a two-book star trek thing, a farscaape novel and other stuff in the works. Make people aware of you and hustle up work.
Yvonne: I have no other source of income other than writing. I pay for some food and phone and insurance, but Dad provides housing. I've done web writing. If I'm not writing what I want to write, I may as well go back to work. I am going to concentrate on a solo novel. It's a luxury to not have to beat the deadlines.
Tullio: Social Security expense is hard for those who are self-employed.
Josepha: Do not quit your day job until you have a bank roll in the bank. You get used to irregular income, but you know that it will come in. If it doesn't come in on time you learn to be intimidating.
Glen: I had a regular job, and now a pension, so I have that to fall back on. I write what I want and don't have to write things I'd rather not.
Joseph: Lieber made $5000 which was like $50,000 today. He and his wife had medical problems at the end that were not covered.
Tullio: If you think you can make money writing SciFi, go play the lotto. Your chances are better.
Keith: Not everyone can do it. You have to have a financial cushion. You have to establish yourself to an extent. You must be able to work with an editor and meet deadlines. You can't just jump in and do it. You have to build up to it.
Tullio: Tailor your expectations to be realistic. First you pay the IRS, then you pay the Mafia, then you eat.
Josepha: Quicken and Turbo tax are highly recommended. If you're self-employed, you need to fill out weird forms for the IRS. Keep your receipts and keep records. Every state has different laws, such as sales tax.
Keith: SFWA has an emergency medical fund for writers. Health insurance is your friend. It is a very good thing to have.
Josepha: It's cheaper to pay the doctor than to pay the insurance bills. What we really need is an insurance plan for catastrophic injuries. There are 50 million self-employed people in America who cannot afford health insurance.
Joe: A decent policy costs $400 to 500 per month.
Yvonne: I got my health insurance through SFWA for $270 per month. It's a good policy.
Tullio: More and more companies are going to not covering insurance, forcing people to be self-insured.
Josepha: Ask professionals if there is a discount rate for self-employed people.
Mindy Klasky - The Glasswright's Apprentice, from Roc Books, a story of a girl whose family buys her way into the glasswright's guild, witnesses a murder and is accused of being a murderer. She must try to find the actual killer and clear her name.
Carol Berg - Transformation, a fantasy adventure published by Roc books. The story of a prince, heir to an empire, arrogant and a slave who has lost everything in the world to the prince, was at one time a sorcerer who protected the unknowing world from demons. He sees a demon in the court and he has to convince the prince that there is something going on. It is a character and adventure novel.
Joshua Mertz - Dark Futuristic Cyberpunk titled Echopunk, it all takes place at night with no ozone layer left. A street shark deals in illicit info, is asked to hide a 12-year-old boy and gets involved in corporate warfare and get in way over his head. He also finds out about his own past. Published by a small publishing company.
Janine Ellen Young - a Warner Aspect book, the story of a Prussian genius who designed a bridge, died, his son and his son's wife built the bridge. It's a true story that Janine took as the kernel of her story about building a star bridge - just released this week. Aliens send us the blueprints with messages encoded on viruses. The aliens live in a ring system. The virus comes to Earth and kills 4 billion people. The survivors have to decide how to build the bridge, whether they want to build the bridge, what to do when they meet the aliens, etc.
Hear panelists describe their experiences with their first novel. Instructional manual and horror story panel.
What was the hardest thing?
What was the easiest thing?
JEY: I am a very shy person. In order to sell something, you have to talk to people. I went to a writer's conference where I met my editor and my agent. I won three contests with the opening of the book, which gave me confidence. This book starts with an unlovable character. He is taken low rather than rising up in the world. The Song of the Beast. I pitched it and sold it, then talked to an agent and got her interested and sold three books.
MK: the most difficult thing was trying to get a prior book published for four years. I went back to writing and wrote Glasswright, sent it to my former agent and got a time to break up letter. I got signed up with Richard Curtis as a new agent and got the books sold within ten months.
Joshua: There are no literary agents on the west coast -- audience correction: there are two agents on the west coast (both in the audience). The book is about honor in the cyberpunk universe. It is the new dark fiction.
Janine: It is hard for me to be succinct and confident when talking to an agent or editor. I wrote five novels before the first one came out. Keep writing. The more you put out there the better. Writers are thieves and liars with big egos and low self-esteem. That's okay. There is pressure for you to put out the next book NOW and for it to be just as good as the last book NOW. I came up with proposals but people said we're not interested. It can paralyze a writer. Don't stop writing. That's what matters more than anything else.
Carol: I went to a writer's conference, not a workshop. A workshop is like a class on how to write. A conference is a convention where a bunch of writers get together to talk about writing. The conferences try to attract editor's and agents to their event and you can get a 10-minute meeting with an editor to pitch your book. They will give you feedback. I went to the Pikes Peak Writers Conference in Colorado Springs.
Online critique groups can help. You can read the crits in an email and take your time to think about them. I drove to a suburb and met with an in-person crit group for a year-and-a-half. I learned how the industry works and the group was invaluable.
Janine: I was in a writer's group. Once you have been published, you have contacts. This can come through a writer's group. You need people who are tough on you. You really do need an agent. Be friends with first novelists. It is always helpful to get their recommendation to the editor. Editors are overworked and underpaid and they do it out of love.
Carol: I wrote eight novels that are sitting at home that I have never shown to anyone. When I sold this one, they wanted a sequel within nine months, so I learned to work under a deadline. Getting words on paper is important. Keep writing and get people to read it.
M: Things move forward to quickly to go back and edit old stuff I once wrote. You get better at your craft the longer you work at it.
Joshua: I had two short stories published before I sold my novel. I wrote a lot of screen plays. It's easier to get struck by lightning than it is to sell a screen play. The prior works get you above water level.
Frank Lloyd Wright became famous when he was 80. Age is no issue. We often learn in a vacuum when we write. We have to learn how to craft our stories and then sell them.
Ian Randall Strock (M) - Writer/Editor of Artemis Magazine.
John Strickland - Programmer/Analyst in space movement for 30 years.
Edwin Strickland - Image processing.
Ben Bova - Guest of Honor, a couple novels about living on the moon.
Panelists discuss private initiatives for space flight and moon landings.
Ian: The Artemis Project is a venture to buuld a manned moon base.
John: I look at the practical aspects, advocate reusable vehicles. We need a practical system, a means of ferrying things between Earth orbit and the lunar surface. A lunar ferry vehicle that is easily serviceable and reusable. Get Hydrogen from Earth and Oxygen from moon rocks. Use resource most abundant in each case.
Ben: How do you get the money to do it? It will cost billions of dollars. Investors invest that much, but it has to be either very, very safe or a huge payoff. Dangers of space flight combined with long term investment turn investors off. Funding enough equipment to make lunar mining workable.
Edwin: Why do we want to go there? So we can walk on the moon? Apollo left us with a dead-end. NASA proposed a lunar-polar orbiter but Congress said "Huh? We've done the moon." and we've been stuck there ever since. Various nations are talking about sending missions to the moon. There has already been one commercial satellite that has reached the moon. A satellite that failed geosynchronous orbit was shot around the moon and the satellite is now in a useful orbit. Several private companies have proposed lunar rovers. Radio Shack has proposed a lunar communications satellite. We need many more science missions, but we need to do commercial missions in smaller jumps rather than a monster program like Apollo.
Ian: The government should go to Mars; commercial instruments should go to the moon. The .COM world has killed long term investing. Transorbital Company may put a lander on the moon, complete with picture sales, etc. Artemis wants to put a manned base on the moon. They are looking at commercial ways to raise money to fund the moonbase. Then they will do tourism. They are looking for customers and terrestrial businesses.
Edwin: These are the bootstrap methods that ar going to be needed. Bill Gates is not interested in funding a moon project, though he is interested in orbital internet links.
Ian: Robt Bigelow is looking for a way to build a cruise ship in space.
John: What kind of business is required for people to stay and live and survive. A mine base will need a habitat for people. Radio astronomy would be a good thing to do on the moon. Video tours would not need a base. Lunar burial could be a salable feature. The Navajos got all excited, saying the moon is a sacred place and you should not put remains there. But business does not need to listen to that.
Gregory: People are pricey. Human experience is important, but Saudi Arabia looks like the Garden of Eden compared to the moon. The smarted thing to do would be to drop a comet onto the moon and capture the water. Drop it first, then build a base. Fusion is 20 years from a realizable reactor and always will be. You have to b able to get some bucks out of the moon or it won't go.
John: The moon is a giant tektite, not a naturally made object.
Ben: If any government moved towards solar power in a big way, converted it microwave power might work. The Japanese might do it, and this could lead to mining the moon.
Edwin: NASA should go back to the moon. Some of the scientific experiments should be run. There are some things we do not understand about the moon, such as its global geology. The ice caps should be investigated.
Susan Sizemore - Vampire fantasy series for Ace. About 20 books in print.
Adam-Troy Castro - 5 books published.
John DeChancie - 24 books and many short stories.
Every fan has said this about a book at one time. Panelists will attempt to answer the quesion.
John: What is good? What is bad?
Adam: This is a dangerous panel. Are we experts or examples?
John: Teaches several courses for WD correspondence course and has read an awful lot of bad fiction. The ratio of stuff that is publishable to the horrible stuff is not good. Talent is rare.
Susan: RWA has published & unpublished writers: 8,000 members with 1200-to-1800 published. Romance is a big market. A very small percentage ever get published. Bad books get published because someone in the publishing company thought it would make money.
Adam: In some cases, the author or editor read too quickly and didn't pay good enough attention to the effect the passage had on the reader.
John: If you have written and sold, start teaching a course. You will learn what not to do. You will find in your own work all kinds of things that you would not have written if you had only known.
Adam: No one, if you are very good at writing, likes the stuff s/he wrote 20 years ago.
John: Gems: "Damn!" he swore.
Smith arrived at the rear of the crowd.
He well remembered the night the barn burned. The sound of burning cows haunted him for years.
Adam: A quote of my own:
You treated her like a worthless slut. Well you're wrong, mister. She's not worthless.
Adam: How do editors or publishers not catch it? Desensitization? I.E.: Horror anthology, may say it is a good story even though it is well beyond the pale. A story that is absolutely determined to be as revolting as possible with no other reason for the story. An editor of hard SF may reach a point in the story with 17 pages of engineering discussion with no story, and he may miss the point.
Susan: A writer sees the words and the way the words are put together, and the reader sees the story. Storytelling and writing are not the same thing.
John: It is all terribly subjective, but that's just my point of view.
The lighthouse shone like a beacon in the night.
John: Editorial glitches happen in every book. The hero's eye or hair color changes from chapter to chapter. We are not talking about that. We are talking about absolute dreck that got published.
Adam: The world was suffering from a plague of madness running rampant, whole civilizations went insane, all because of the hero's error. In the last 20 pages of a very long book, someone handed him a machine that fixed the whole thing. It got published because of the author's previous 50 best sellers.
John: Reputation of the author: Lots of people thought that Heinlein had a period that was not so good. I Shall Fear No Evil and Number of the Beast, for example. This is all subjective. Hypothesis #2: Publishers want to capitalize on a trend.
Susan: Romance authors hate Fabio. Fabio got a contract to write books. It sold simply because of the name. It was bad, should have never been published, but it sold just because it was Fabio. Later books by Fabio did not sell well.
Adam: Other sequels that publisher's feel will sell. Ahab's wife, for example. Pre-sold properties is how they sometime get sold. A book came out: Pleistocene Redemption - the lady lab tech plops her breasts down on the lab table, rearranges them, etc. How did it get published? There was a similarity between the name of the author and the name of the publisher: it was exactly the same.
John: #3: So as not to break an option cause. It could be a relatively unknown author that the publisher has high hopes for, but they take it so as not to break the option on future books. They don't want to lose the author. #4: In certain genres there is a certain saneness to things. How many fantasy novels have you read where the hero is a teen endowed with special magical powers and who are the rightful heir to the throne but usurped by an evil mage and must go on a long quest to find a powerful artifact. How many fantasy novels does this cover? When you read the 434th of these, you'll say I've read this before and it's bad. It may be a good story and well-written, but it's been done soooo many times. We keep writing about elves and dwarves and goblins and orcs. There are too many books with elves and dwarves and goblins and orcs.
Susan: Editors and writers don't notice and expect the readers aren't going to notice. They write standard stories.
Adam: Paint by the numbers writing. Some people buy the books because it was written by a favorite author, so they want to buy his older work, which may not have been so good.
Susan: Good writing can be hard to read. It is easier to publish easy books. Elroy is hard, Ellery Queen is easy.
John: #5: The posthumous book completed by somebody else. #6 God is pissed off at the writer.
Adam: A Marvel Comics acquisition editor said that people would come to him saying I have a story, it's really bad, but as good as one you published a while back, so why can't you publish mine? Sometimes they have to fill out space.
The first piece (published) was crap, but your piece is derivative.
Difference in taste may get things published, but you think it is dreck.
If you read something and then say "I could do better than that!" then do so. Writer's careers have been started by that statement.
Patrick Neilsen Hayden - Tor/Forge Editor-in-Chief.
Gardner Dozois - Editor of Asimov's Science Fiction.
Eileen Gunn (M) - Editor, writer.
Hear from the pros why they buy certain stories and not others.
G: I buy stories I like and I think the readership of Asimov's will like.
P: I buy stuff that surprises me, that I didn't expect. Good characterization, good language.
E: I need stories badly for a new online magazine.
G: I read all this stuff because I don't have a life. I read manuscripts all day and half the night.
P: The true editor's clarion call is "Oh, shit! This is good!" I put that manuscript aide for more serious consideration.
E: I only want to read the stories I'm going to publish.
G: Read the slush pile because you may find the gems that will be your Hugo's next year and those authors will go on to be the mainstays of your magazine.
E: I want quality, not quantity.
P: The really serious junk is disposed of fairly quickly. Most of it is junk. Most failed fiction announces itself as failed pretty quickly. It's like shopping. The first thing you look for is good material. A lot of them are sleazy polyester. When you find one that looks okay, then you take it out to see if it's put together right. The job of the editor is to be a smart reader. Is this stuff that would be enjoyed by the readers?
G: I consider myself to be the great sewer pipe of the arts. A slush reader takes maybe a minute to decide about your manuscript. Your job as a writer is to make him stop tapping his pencil and read your story and you have to do that in the first paragraph.
P: The bane of fantasy is the portentous birth scene.
G: Trends don't mean much, because by the time you see them, they are done. I'm reluctant to say "no more of this kind of story" and then the next Steven King will send his story somewhere else. Send it to me and I'll decide if it's stupid or cliché. That's my job as an editor.
E: Matrix.net provides a service showing how much flows on the internet. The future of creativity will be patronage. infinite.matrix.net will be the new online magazine.
Q: Cover letter.
G: I like cover letters. If you putt your semipro credentials in your cover letter, it will get you out of the slush pile and into the semi-pro pile, which may help a little.
P: If you list ten years of semi-pro sales in your cover letter, what you're telling me is that you haven't improved.
G: A cover letter is a double-edged sword in a way. Many more people think they can be witty and charming but come across badly.
G: If you are a doctor and writing a medical story, that lends credence and is good to mention. It doesn't buy you a lot, but it buys you something. Not everyone feels that way. Some prefer no cover letters.
G: I can always find good stories. It's the extraordinary stories that are hard to find.
G: There are three levels of responses: Rejection slip, slightly more encouraging rejection slip, and personal response written by Gardner.
P: A form rejection is usual. A personal rejection means maybe it could sell someday with work. The fact that I'm not going to buy 'this' does not mean it's crap. It just means we aren't buying it. Our job is to make something, not to help you fix the problems, if any.
G: Just because it's rejected doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the story; it just means that it isn't right for us at this time. www.asimovs.com - click for guidelines.
G: Persistence is as important as or more important than talent. It is your tool for your success. We accept resubmissions of stuff you have fixed up and sent to us again.
Karen Cupp (M) - Clarion west graduate, crit groups.
Gerri Balter - writer who has almost had SF novel published twice, extensive experience with crit groups, Clarion graduate.
Carol Berg - First novel published 3 weeks ago, member of in-person crit groups, contest crits, editor crits at writer's conferences.
Rochelle Uhlenkott - Physicist who dabbles in fantasy, have run and been members in online critique groups.
Which is better for you - a group of people you meet with in-person, or one you "meet" with online? Is there a best group for you? How are crit groups chosen? What do you look for?
R: I was sitting in a corner writing on my own and needed critters. I got onto genie and they encouraged me to start my own writer's group and I did. It went well for a couple years but we had to expel a couple people. They took our stuff and told us we were full of it and told us how to restructure and rewrite the overall story. You don't want a group that just says "this is so lovely".
C: A long-time friend and I used to read each other's material and a couple years ago we went looking for crit groups. We went to a regional writer's conference and found a few people in our area and formed a crit group. We have a diversity of viewpoints. One person is a line editor, one is marvelous at saying "I really don't understand", another has read tons of fantasy and knows when to say "this is a cliché" so we have worked very well.
G: I was naive. I thought everyone wanted what I wanted. I was wrong. In five years I went through ten different writing groups. The shark feeding frenzy crit group didn't work out. I had to decide what I wanted in a writing group. People can suddenly turn on you when you say something that hurts their feelings, even if you meant it constructively. So I turned to online groups. They work best for me.
K: They don't have to be writing the same as you, or at the same level, but they do need to want the same thing as you. It's best to be the low man on the totem pole, but not too far ahead. It's time to leave the group when you're no longer comfortable with it. There doesn't have to be anything wrong. There are diffeent kinds of online writing groups. How do you find them? Advantages and disadvantages?
R: I had sold and in the process I had met a few SFWA members, then met more people online. Critters was on AOL but it was not a quick enough turnaround for me. They are now on critters.org. Del Rey has had some tech problems, but they are a good place to go. Del Rey is trying to do something to fix it. Onlinewritingworkshop.com has a good group. The Baen web site is good.
Yahoo has clubs and invitation-only groups. HotOffice is a free set-up, boards to post on and chats, etc. HollyLisle.com is a very good site with a lot of specialized crit groups. Orson Scott Card's web site has a crit group "Hat Rack". Fiction Writer's connection and the Southwest Writers Workshop are good sites. Several Writers Leagues around the country have crit circles available.
K: The online writers group got me a YA SF/F audience to crit my work.
G: We all have our weaknesses and the group can help me out. Once they know your characters, they know your characters and you need a fresh pair of eyes that don't carry pre-prejudices about your characters. You need a combination.
C: You need to develop an ability to filter what you get and use crits constructively. You need to respect others.
Teamwork:
G: We share everything. Those of us who go to a con report on it and share our experiences.
C: We bring articles and share them. We crit query letters and synopses.
R: If someone has an idea and are trying to flesh it out, we help each other. We give the type of critique that they want. Contacts are important. I've met other writers through Writer's Digest Schools. I'll be going to the World Fantasy Conference this fall.
K: I work all day and write in the evenings. I am not a social person and doing panels is difficult for me. I am a writer. I have trouble being the person to sell me. One of the things Del Rey and Clarion did for me is they said "We are going to the con. Would you like to share a room?" Others in your support group can help you get in contact with agents or editors.
R: This is a profession. Be professional.
Workshops: Some of them have excellent critiques. The agents and publishers are there. You will get excellent professional advice in the classes.
Leigh Strother-Vien - a would-be pro, active in fandom since 67, and a witch.
Josepha Sherman - folklorist and fantasy writer. Writing a book called Mythology for Storytellers and possibly an encyclopedia of mythology as well.
Denise Little - Bookstore manager for 10 years, manager of B&N & B Dalton for four years.
Panelists discuss mythology, especially lesser-known mythologies, as sources of fantasy.
J: Mythology is about the big things, creation, etc. Folklore is the lore of the folk, stories, customs, jokes, riddles. Fairy Tales are by someone and are neither folklore or mythology.
D: English classics major in college. What is the eternal hold of myth?
J: No myth ever dies, it just gets new clothes.
L: Myths explain where we fit into the world.
J: What happens if we go out into space and find another race with their own religion?
L: Death is part of life and life is part of death.
J: Our culture tries to deny death. The Mexican day of the dead is a celebration of the cycle of life.
J: Creation myths: There are many similarities. Creation from the great flood, out of the egg or shell, and emergence of the underworld are the three main basic types of myth.
L: Favorite myth is probably about when the goddess of the moon takes a lover and the lover was twilight. Kali has an attraction for me.
J: Myth is a popular tool for writers is because it's ingrained in all of us. Archetypes resonate within us. The worst thing you can do is mix and match mythologies. You have to be very careful. Evil angels and evil saints are not too acceptable o some people.
L: I don't try to have a convention of Gods. Poul Anderson did something like there where Hermes came up because he was really bored with ambrosia.
The Sandman series: Neil Gaman (sp?) gives you a feel for different cultures. Good Omens by Terry Pratchett.
Kachinas have good and bad aspects.
J: A trickster is change, sometimes for the sake of change. Bart Simpson is a trickster.
Fritz Lieber's Fafhry and the Gray Mouser brought Odin and Loki into their world. Irish Celtic folklore has been very popular on the bookshelves the last few years - since the 1700's.
L: Roger Zelazny - Lord of Light, Amber series is a twist on it.
D: Evangeline Walton wrote a series with Welsch mythology.
J: Mabinogean is a weird collection of the earliest stories.
Audience: African and Australian mythology are largely ignored
J: but the public won't buy it. Too exotic. The world has changed. Octavia Butler has done well with ethnocentrism and racism.
Speculation Presses: one of the good web-based presses. They can take risks with smaller audiences.
Read Tad Williams.
Brown Girl in the Rain by Nalo Hopkinson.
Slavic tales might do better now.
Often marketing and sales determine D: what gets bought and not and these people are golfers, not readers.
Most of these people do not understand words of more than two syllables.
L: We have four big publishers, but we have a renaissance in the small press.
J: Swordsmith Books is a new house. Patricia Wrightson wrote on Australian mythology.
Cara Dalkey did books on Indian Mythology: Goa and others.
Orson Scott Card's son died of Cerebral Palsy last week. That's why he is not at Worldcon this year.
Emil Petaja.
L: Bug-eyed monster is the hobgoblin in alien clothes.
J: UFO Aliens match the fairy abductions right down to having weird sex.
D: Ian Banks, wonderful author, goes to grocery store for his myths.
Walter Jon Williams (M) - half-a-dozen alternate history stories.
John G. Hemry - Stark's War, set on the moon in a few years, very familiar with Alternate History.
Kenneth Hite - game program material, game books, magazine, alternate history sourcebooks: Gurps Alternate Earth and Alternate Earth II.
Elizabeth Garrott - not a writer, enjoy reading alternate history, co-editor of Fosfacts, History major in college.
Suzanne Blom - Inca the Scarlet History, set in 1528.
How much history do you need when you've just changed it? How to keep your alternate history historical. Is alternate history a dying species?
S: I spent a lot of time researching. I had to learn enough of the language to translate all the names. The Inca named their kids at twelve for their characteristics. My book is better in Incas than any of the general books out there that are supposed to be fact. Sometimes it is better history than the histories.
J: You can have alternate histories that are almost textbooks when dealing in areas of history that are not well known.
E: Yes, if it is well-researched and close to the point where it diverges from our history.
W: No, AH is not history. It takes different skill sets. The point of one is to tell a story; the point of the other is to document what really happened. Then I found out about counter-factuals as an academic discipline where they play elaborate what-if games allegedly to figure out what really did happen. There is a school of thought that there are only two subjects for alternate history: What if Robert E. Lee won? and What if Hitler won?
S: Each chapter of my book starts out with "this is what was happening in actual history now".
J: We use the Civil War and WW2 a lot because we know them well and they both could have gone the other way very easily.
K: When dealing with a mass audience, particularly an American mass audience, we should be grateful that they remember the civil war and WW2 at all.
E: The Byzantine Mafia have doctorates in medieval history and the ancient empires. It can be helpful to know what was going on in our real world. There are three series that Harry Turtledove has done taking off from changes in the Byzantine era. Susan Scwartz's Shards of Empire was interesting. An alternate earth story is where you take one element, such as magic works, and explore what comes of that.
K: John Maddox Roberts' King of the Woods is a stupid stupid book but I love it. Crown of Thorns by Mark Laidlaw is a beautiful short story about colonialism.
J: Lord Calvin of Otherwhen by H. Beam Piper, in which the barbarians went east instead of west and invaded North America. "What Mad Universe" is a story in which a SciFi editor finds himself in a world imagined by a fan.
S: Two Georges, lousy mystery but good alternative history.
W: Howard Walter's work - he has done everything better than everybody, but he writes from bizarre perspectives, such as the three stooges trapped in Switzerland, unable to leave because they were Jewish. Another was about Ike becoming a clarinetist and Elvis becoming a politician. SciFiction online magazine has an obscure Walter story.
Audience: Counter factuals are about real people doing different things, where alternate histories are about common people affected by history.
S: It's fun playing with the only person people know and getting into their heads.
J: There are a lot of characters who aren't well-known but had an effect, and if they had done something differently, then what?
W: I have written several stories in which historical characters behaved mostly as they were supposed to.
Audience: Counter-factual is the study of an alternate history and an what we call an alternate history is a story set in an alternate history.
S: Hidden History is about people behind the scenes, what happens to them, but they don't make any difference.
J: Everyone's perception of nuclear weapons changed over the decades, partly by the alternate histories depicting nuclear holocaust.
S: Alternate Histories are a way of dealing with the fact that we have options that we never dealt with before.
K: Harry Turtledove is why we have alternate histories. Fans of the genre came out and said "this was great, where can I find more like it?" and it created the sub-genre.
W: Historicals stopped selling 20 years ago. Writers who would otherwise have been historical writers have been forced to go into other genres.
This Compilation Copyright August 13, 2000 by John Lorentz.
Permission is granted to use the directory on these pages for individuals
seeking addresses of other individuals, for one-to-one correspondence.
These addresses are not to be used for commercial solicitation or mass-mailing.
Unauthorized use will be subject to a $500 reading fee.
Sending of such mail will be deemed to constitute acceptance of these terms.
Dragons of the East, Book 1: Lord of Change has been submitted.
(early chapters may be read at my forum: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/74198) Dragons of the East, Book 2: The Kirin is in progress.
email: Jim@HollyLisle.com
Don't let reality spoil your dreams!
What if we lived on a planet where we could fly? What would be the effects of living on a low-gravity, dense atmospheric planet?
You can fly in low gravity and a dense atmosphere with strap on wings. See Alexander's The Dynamics of Dinosaurs and Other Extinct Giants.
Parrots are close to being intelligent flying creatures. He showed a picture of a parrot with a stick beating a hollow log. The parrot had cut the stick himself.
From Alexander's book:
Lift = constant x area x v^2
Weight = 0.909 x area x vmin
Area = mass x grv x 1.1/vmin^2
Wing area needed to lift a given mass:
Pterandon = 16kg = 2.6 m^2
Lunar Dragon = 1 ton = 15 m wingspan - in lunar gravity.
Troposphere-to-Statosphere = Tropopause.
Volcanos and outgassing replenish what escapes into space.
Low grav worlds usually have greatly expanded depth of atmosphere. The moon should retain an atmosphere, but the solar wind blows it away.
- it needs some mechanism to protect the atmosphere.
- a magnetic field aligned with the spin axis precludes molecular accelleration.
Titan has 1.6 x atmospheric density of Earth, but is very cold. Saturn's magnetic field protects the moon from the solar wind. The rings are part of the magnetosphere.
Red Dwarf stars are the majority of the stars in our galaxy.
M2-M3 red main squence stars (Red Dwarfs) are common.
You could have a habitable low-gravity dense atmospheric world orbiting a Jovian supergiant, in orbital resonance with other moons, and heated by a Red Dwarf and tidal forces.
Red Dwarf's have lower UV radiation. You wouldn't realize you were under a red star. The color shifts are subtle and it would look white from an orbiting planet.
Ross 614B red dwarf sun -- minimum nuclear reaction -- low UV and good heat source.
It is possible to have a planet with a deep atmosphere, cool poles, and hot over most of the planet.
Books: Rocheworld (sp), Forest Between Worlds.
Binary worlds tide-locked to each other -- todal forces warm the planets. Thermal and coriolis heating can warm a planet along with volcanos, etc. Winds can super-rotate to warm the backsides of planets. (he had a diagram of a tide-locked world that I hand-copied. If I can get a reasonable facsimile in a jpg, then I may post that here as well -- Jim)
Atmospheric pressure needed for 288şK:
Titan - 12 atmospheres
Mars - 2.25 atmospheres (terraformed)
If you want a world easier to fly in, have a denser atmosphere and more distance from the sun. The gravity on Mars is 40% that of Earth. Mountains are two to three times as tall and pressure is less.
Dragons of the East, Book 1: Lord of Change has been submitted.
(early chapters may be read at my forum: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/74198) Dragons of the East, Book 2: The Kirin is in progress.
email: Jim@HollyLisle.com
Don't let reality spoil your dreams!
<AShelton> Why's that, Cailin?
<Cailin> Type your name in the bar that says NAME and hit enter.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Ah, too easy
<Dawn> Hi All :}
<Starlit_Dreamer> waves
<AShelton> Hi, Dawn
<@Jim> Hello!
<Cailin> Hi, guys.
<Dawn> amazing I manage to get in on my first try ..for a monday that almost a mircle
<AShelton> Hi, Jim
<AShelton> Again. LOL
<AShelton> Jim, what's with the @ before your name?
<Cailin> I'm surprised nobody heard me screaming and cussing this morning, where ever you all are.
<@Jim> Moderator.
<Dawn> oh and why is that Cailin
<Starlit_Dreamer> Sound doesn't carry very well across the atlantic
<AShelton> Ah Okay.
<AShelton> sgsgsgs
<AShelton> I was too tired . . .
<Cailin> Dawn} My computer has a virus, and is now in the shop. I have to walk 1 1/4 mile to the library to get to class.
<AShelton> I couldn't hear myself think, much less a scream all the way fromMissouri.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Hey, cool picture Jim.
<@Jim> Thank Holly, Nick.
<Dawn> Thats definately worth a YAK!!!! Cailin ..
<allikat> oh, boy. and I've heard how enjoyable your walks tend to be, Cailin...
<Cailin> Holly's having more fun with the doodle-board than everyone else put together.
<Starlit_Dreamer> 1 1/4 mile....... this is too confusing thats what... 4 km?
<Dawn> 2.5 km
<Starlit_Dreamer> Oh. Thats not so bad.
<Cailin> It's worth it. I'll probably miss the first mythology discussion, and maybe the second, but I'll be here for everything else.
<Cailin> It's bad if you have cerebral palsy and it's sweltering hot outside.
<@Jim> The logs should be posted on the class transcripts board.
<Starlit_Dreamer> How long will your computer be in the shop?
<Cailin> Last time it was a week and a half.
<Dawn> double ACK ..:{ its hot now will be hoter later this week (West Coast SF Area -- thou Inland a bit) Cailin
<@Jim> Ok... everyone ready? I have a few introductory paragraphs, and then we'll throw it open to questions and comments.
<Dawn> I am ready
<Starlit_Dreamer> Ready
<allikat> ready
<Cailin> Ready, and then some.
<AShelton> Ready as I'll ever be (and hoping storm doesn't take my computer down, too)
<AShelton> You mean I have to read, Jim?
<@Jim> Yes, Amy, you have to read.
<AShelton> goody
<@Jim> I'll try to make it interesting.
<@Jim> Dawn and I originally decided to collaborate because we had a good story going in a world system that Dawn had built up over a number of years. When the first draft was done we decided to continue collaborating because we work together very well. Dawn does a lot of, but not all of the worldbuilding for our stories, along with a number of characterizations, descriptions, initial plots, etc.
<@Jim> We usually work the fine points out and develop the stories together online. We started this partnership with the guidance of the written materials available from Holly and the book The Career Novelist by Donald Maass, both of which stress that the partners should have some agreements in place before starting.
<@Jim> We worked out the list of seven points as we worked on our writing, and it has worked well for us.
<@Jim> One thing I will stress to everyone: make your friendship #1. Don't let conflicts over the story destroy your friendship with your collaborator. Always, always keep in mind that you are working with a friend to tell a story. The story is not (usually) as important as your friendship.
<@Jim> You will have disagreements about how to handle things. Agree with your partner that you will consider his or her points fairly, and that if one feels very strongly about it, then that's the way to go.
<@Jim> You need to consider and understand the reasons for wanting to 'do it' a certain way. Most disagreements fade when the reasons are examined and understood.
<@Jim> Questions or comments?
<AShelton> Sounds to me like marriage advice (I'll read anything).
<Starlit_Dreamer> Who writes the actual stories, after the worldbuilding is done? Do you both write parts, or drafts, or what?
<Cailin> This is someting that my husband and I are in the process of learning. we haven't strangled each other with the mouse cord yet, so I think we're doing pretty good.
<@Jim> We work the stories out together -- then I write the words -- but Dawn has input too. Your arrangement may differ.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Okie.
<AShelton> How'd you decide who'd do the actual writing?
<Cailin> That's how Allen and I do it, except occasionally I let him write a scene or a chapter, then blend it in to the rest in later drafts.
<Dawn> Fortunately for me -- Jim has the time to do much of the writing to covert my chicken scribbling and mubbles as I work a day job and don't have the time.
<@Jim> We just sort of made the decision to do it that way. We each have our strengths and mine is doing the actual writing.
<@Jim> Before we started writing together, I used to write little vignette scenes and email them to Dawn... we got to know our strengths that way.
<Dawn> I done some as well but no where as much as Jim -- It helps us in the beginning.
<@Jim> There is some overlap, too... sometimes I contribute to the worldbuilding... in Secret Psychics I did much of the worldbuilding.
<@Jim> gmta, Dawn!
<Dawn> :}
<AShelton> What's gmta?
<@Jim> great minds think alike.
<AShelton> Oh
<@Jim> more questions?
<Cailin> About the name you publish under?
<Dawn> That as difficult decision to make
<Dawn> I think the current pseudo name to : Mills Greenlee
<@Jim> Holly emphasized that the way the bookstores work, it's best to publish under one name, not two, so we decided to use the name Mills Greenlee.
<AShelton> I saw that post . . . she said you could always have your real names listed in the publishing information.
<@Jim> You see, the big bookstores will list the book and track sales under both writer names, and then if we come out with independant books, it affects how many copies they will order.
<Cailin> Allen and Iave a rather different situation. We're writing in the same world, but sometimes we collaborate, and some projects are my solo work. He's eventually going to write his own in this world, too. We're not sure how to handle this.
<Dawn> suggestion ..you both write under one pseudo name
<Cailin> But his style is so different than mine that it's almost ludicrus!
<@Jim> You can put in the copyrights page that the work is copyright by each of your names.
<Cailin> It will be obvious that he and I are two people.
<AShelton> Yes, to readers . . . but bookstore computers don't read books.
<@Jim> Or you can choose to publish with a subtitle saying "A Allen & Cailin World Novel."
<AShelton> They only keep track of the names and sales.
<@Jim> (an Allen...)
<Cailin> I don't understand.
<Cailin> Isn't the readers knowing a bad thing?
<AShelton> It wo'nt matter to the computer how many people wrote the book so long as there's only one name on the cover.
<Cailin> I'm not thinking about the computer, I'm thinking about the readers.
<Starlit_Dreamer> Make up a name for the world Cailin, and publish all books, regardless of author, as a "whatever" novel.... this is used in most series books (ie, dragonlance, forgotten realms)
<AShelton> No. The readers knowing is a good thing. I've gotten books by authors whov'e collagorated with authors I like.
<@Jim> If the world you write in is called ABC World, then title your book The Amazing Story by Allen... subtitle "An ABC World Story"
<Dawn> Or "xxxxx World Novel" by yyyy like 'Thieves World' ...thou for what I read it could hurt you ..but then again ..look at the 20+ books done in the Shadowrun world.
<@Jim> ... or by Cailin... <g>
<AShelton> I have a habit of looking at copyright pages . . . if I read something by two people I like I'll look for work they've done individually.
<Dawn> (sorry ..Jim and I had the same idea)
<@Jim> Your publisher will have a lot to say about that, too.
<@Jim> You get to say what your name is, though.
<Cailin> I don't look at copyright pages. They don't make sense to me.
<@Jim> Some do and some don't.
<@Jim> You can also put a web site address in your books. Mine is JamesKMills.com.
<AShelton> There's always a part that says, Copyright (date) (author's name). That's all I look for. I don't understand the rest myself.
<@Jim> The publisher will usually ask for some bio information, and sometimes a picture. That's where you can spell out who's who, and most booksellers won't catch on.
<Cailin> I'll have to print this transcript and take some time to try to understand, or have my mate explain it in Retardese.
<@Jim> If you read Holly's notes on the polite guerrilla campaign, if they're still up, she explains it much better than me.
<Cailin> I read it. For the most part it went right over my head.
<@Jim> I guess the important thing to remember is that the name deal is only because of big bookstore policies. The readers that like your work will find out who you are.
<Dawn> And very quickly I have found out. Like Laurel Hamilton. Her books fly off the shelves.
<Cailin> I got the "Privately-owned bookstore=good, chain-bookstore=bad" part, though.
<@Jim> When you publish, you'll need to do appearances and signnigs... the word will get around.
<Cailin> If the readers get to know *me*, my books will rot on the shelves.
<@Jim> Of course, that assumes you write a good story... the readers respond to quality storytelling.
<Cailin> It wouldn't matter how good the story is, if they knew me they wouldn't buy it.
<@Jim> Readers don't care if you're a zombie if you write good books.
<Dawn> Now here is something that can be an issue and needs to be discussed by collorabotor -- who does the signing and appearances ..with my day job and inherit limits of travel -- claustophobic -- Jim has volunteer to do much of the public stuff. Yehh.
<allikat> hey, we know you, and we still like you, Cailin
<AShelton> Yes, Cailin.
<@Jim> You have to do signings in California, Dawn... and we're planning on going to Worldcon San Jose together.
<Dawn> True ..I am looking forward to that only an hour or so from me
<AShelton> Me, I ever get published, I won't be doing many outside of conventions and local bookstores if I can help it.
<Cailin> I'm scared to death of crowds, and I've never traveled in my life. Plus I take a lousy picture.
<AShelton> Huh. None lousier than me, Cailin.
<@Jim> That's true for most of us, Amy. You can be scared, Cailin... but it's a part of being a writer.
<Dawn> Don't worry Cailin ..I never take good pictures either and my DMV picture ..does look frightful!
<@Jim> You have to overcome that fear. You can do it.
<Cailin> Is having a panic attack and passing out?
<AShelton> And writing fans aren't as goofy as movie fans, for the most part.
<@Jim> That could throw a kink in, I admit.
<AShelton> If you try to stick to conventions, you'll be able to schedule rooms and times suitable for you. And good cons have the guests' rooms separate from the general rabble.
<@Jim> My wife has high anxiety and is subject to panic attacks. There are things you can do to help yourself.
<Cailin> I made the mistake of taking my son to the circus. My husband had to carry me out of there. I was sobbing and gasping to hard to walk.
<Cailin> I help myself by staying out of crowds!
<AShelton> Hmmm. Then your husband may need to do all the publicity for you.
<@Jim> Do you get therapy?
<Cailin> No. I can't afford it.
<AShelton> Or you could try to schedule with another writer, who'd be willing to handle the lion's share of the interaction.
<@Jim> You may be able to find some free or low cost if you look around. Either way, you and your partner can work it out somehow. Talk to him about it.
<AShelton> So if you begin to feel overwhelmed you can retreat.
*Starlit_Dreamer* Well, thanks for the great class Jim. I think I might head over to the ref now to get some coffee before I fall back asleep
<Cailin> I wouldn't be able to walk through the front door. I can't brether in a room with more than five people.
<@Jim> Ok, Nick -- see you later!
<AShelton> That's why I've thought of collaborating . . . I do a lot better in crowds when I have someone else with me. So if I need to retreat, I can.
<AShelton> Bye, Starlit
<Starlit_Dreamer> Seeya all Thanks for the great class
<allikat> bye, SD!
<Starlit_Dreamer> stumbles out of the labs
<Cailin> I tried that route, Jim. The treatment was shoddy. I got the "Hey, it's free. You're lucky I'm wasting my time on you," stuff.
<@Jim> Cailin, if you have to avoid the crowds, then have Allen do the PR work.
<Cailin> 'Night, Star!
<@Jim> When you have more $$ then you can deal with it if you want.
<AShelton> Oh, I know that kind of "treatment"
<@Jim> My wife takes a combination of drugs to deal with anxiety and depression.
<@Jim> Any more collaboration-related questions?
<AShelton> How did you and Dawn decide to collaborate?
<AShelton> I mean, how dod you meet and when did you realize you could collaborate?
<Cailin> I'm supposed to be. The drugs they were giving me were worse than the problem, and they refused to switch me. I had to quit taking them.
<@Jim> We play roleplaying games, including Dungeons and Dragons and similar games... that's how we met and our books come out of that.
<AShelton> Ah.
<@Jim> Get your MD to put you on Zoloft, Cailin. Just a suggestion.
<AShelton> That's awful, Cailin. Its a shame when the people who re supposed to help you don't.
<@Jim> My wife takes Celexa and Wellbutrin.
<@Jim> We make a conscious effort to make our stories stand as stories, though, Amy... with no reference to any game systems.
<@Jim> And some of my personal work isn't game-based at all.
<Dawn> As is mine.
<Cailin> I was on Zoloft for post-partum depression. But I don't have access to any kind of doctor right now. As soon as I get medicaid I may do just that. It worked. My psichiatrist had me on effexor. {shudder}
<Dawn> thou I am still in the outline stage of a Vampire story
<AShelton> None of mine is . . . .
<@Jim> That's part of the beauty of writing... everyone's is different.
<@Jim> More questions?
<AShelton> I'm sure I'll think of some tomorrow at work . . .
<AShelton> but I have none right now.
<@Jim> You are welcome to post them on the writer's board.
<AShelton> Thanks, Jim.
<@Jim> You've been quiet, Allikat... any questions?
<AShelton> Oh, I'd better go . . . headache from small print.
<AShelton> See y'all later.
<@Jim> Ok, Amy... see you later.!
<allikat> not really. I think everyone's covered all the ones I had
<Cailin> See you, Ash!
<allikat> bye, amy!
<Cailin> What do you do if you violently disagree?
<@Jim> Explore the reasons... generally you can work it out rationally.
<Dawn> violently disagree ... hum ..I don't think we had a violent disagreement ..as Jim as explore the reasons why ..it could be as simple as feeling 'possessive' of a character and not wanting to do that to them.
<@Jim> You have reasons for wanting to do it one way, and your partner has reasons for wanting to do it another. Understanding can lead to compromise or a complete change.
<@Jim> Dawn is right -- we talk it out and work it out -- we've never had a violent disagreement.
<Cailin> Allen likes to do sadistic things to my characters - he usually "plays" the villains. I tend to have a cow about it.
<Dawn> As the main world builder in LoC -- I done some terrible thing -- such as laying waste to San Francisco and Toyko ..in the first book
<@Jim> We don't have one play good guy and one play bad guy. We both play good guys as our main characters, and we both take turns running the villains. Sometimes you have to hurt your MCs to make a good story.
<Dawn> But you have to do it ..especially if it part of the plot
<@Jim> One of Holly's rules: ask what's the worst thing that could happen to your characters? Do it.
<Cailin> I must admit that without Allen the conflict in the story would be minimal. I don't have the heart to do bad things. Allen, though, is an evil genius.
<@Jim> Use that to advantage... as the good guy, you have to work your way out of the difficulties.
<Cailin> When we get to some scenes, we actually crack out the D&D and roleplay it. Alen makes a good necromancer.
<@Jim> We do the same thing, Cailin, though with a different game system.
<Cailin> How do you agree when to sit down and work on something, and when to have it done. I have to hover over Allen with a cast iron skillet sometimes to get him to do his part so that I can do mine.
<@Jim> We are both pretty enthused about our stories... so that isn't a problem for us. Try to get Allen to be ~interested~ in the stories.
<Dawn> also we do our work for the most part over the internet via emails,chat rooms and IMs ..as it gets expensive doing long distance calls
<@Jim> That's for sure!
<Cailin> Allen loves the story, but he treats writing it like a revolting chore.
<@Jim> I guess you have to find ways to make it more interesting for him to work on it.
<Dawn> that can be a problem ..because with out the 'love' of a story you are going to have to fight it to completion -- or as Jim as -- make him 'love' the story
<Cailin> That's what I'm asking you. ::sigh:: I don't have a clue.
<@Jim> Build a love subplot into the story... and roleplay it to the hilt. <g>
<@Jim> Of course, you may not get too much writing done that way. <g>
<Dawn> LOL ..thats a thought
<Cailin> Our writing sessions - when they're successful - usually end in the bedroom, anyway. <G>
<Dawn> thought sometimes you just have to hit the character over the head -- to get them to remember to love ..remember what I had to do for Tsuki ..bambozed by the Lady of Time :}}
<@Jim> <g> How you work out that problem is really up to you. It sounds like you need to talk to Allen about it... a serious talk.
<@Jim> LOL -- or Seimei...
<Cailin> That's why I wanted to do this workshop with him, but he had to stay home with our son.
<Dawn> true ..:}
<@Jim> (you have to read our books to get those references)
<Cailin> Will you be holding this again?
<@Jim> I'll post the transcript -- print it out and discuss it with him. We'll hold it again if there is interest.
<@Jim> hi anon94... type your name in the name box and join in!
<@Jim> Holly!!
<Cailin> {wince} Some of my remarks would get me spanked without compensation.
<@Holly> Hi, Jim -- Just me.
<@Jim> lol, Cailin... well... edit it.
<@Holly> Waiting for your class to officially end so I didn't interrupt anything.
<Cailin> Can anyone tell that I'm a mental and emotional wreck right now? ::sigh:: Sorry, guys.
<@Jim> Do you need the room?
<@Holly> Cailin -- I hate to ask this, but are you in the habit of getting spanked WITH compensation?
<@Jim> LOL
<@Holly> Jim -- No -- just wanted to know how things went.
<allikat> lol!
<@Holly> Finally got the monkey-boy to sleep, and it was about the right time.
<@Jim> Cailin -- you have to communicate frankly and openly with your partner. And he has to do the same.
<Cailin> The librarians have let me go well over the time limit on these computers. I'm going to have to bake a batch of peanutbutter cookies for them. :}
<@Holly> Cookies are the way to go, for sure.
<@Jim> Holly - when I tell it to save, where does it put the file?
<Dawn> thats nice Cailin..worth it :}}
<@Holly> I've been trying to figure that out, Jim.
<Cailin> I try, and I try to get him to do the same. When that fails there's always my great-grandmother's cast-iron skillet.
<@Jim> I hope you're joking.
<Cailin> Crud! In all the hullabaloo I forgot to eat!
<Dawn> suggestion ..copy it to word and send it to a file site you can upload to ???
<@Holly> Nope. I wish I were. Damon had no trouble saving text.
<@Jim> That's what I'll do, Dawn.
<@Holly> If you can do that, Dawn, go for it. I've had the save thing work once for me, but not since.
<@Jim> The 'joking' was in reference to the cast iron skillet.
<Cailin> I am. That skillet is a family heirloom. It would be a shame to break it over a male Stephenson skull.
<@Jim> I have yet to eat, too, Cailin.
<@Holly> Ah -- gotcha.
<Dawn> I will try Holly ..sometimes I surprise myself.
<@Jim> I'll post the transcript when we're done here, Holly.
<Cailin> Will you please edit out my whining, Jim. I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself for that.
<Dawn> ah ha .. control+c (cut) and control+v works ..(paste) .. I can do that ..I will send it to Jim edit ..he does a better job then I do
<@Holly> Cailin . . . you DIDN'T! <g>
<@Jim> I think we addressed and answered a number of questions. Cailin wants us to hold the workshop again. Not sure exactly what to edit, Cailin.<g>
<Cailin> :P @ Jim. The Nilfheim you don't!
<@Jim> Bring your skillet to Chicago. <g>
<@Holly> Weird -- still doesn't work for me.
<Cailin> I want Allen to attend. He couldn't because he had to stay home with the rugrat.
<@Holly> Someone else is going to have to log all of my classes. That stinks.
<@Jim> I can help, Holly.
<@Holly> That's a relief. I know you'll be at some of them, anyway. <g>
<Dawn> sent Jim
<Cailin> Holly, am I going to be able to ask questions at the Breakout class, or should I keep my auditing mouth shut?
<@Jim> Holly - try clicking in the chat window, then ctrl-home, then shift
<@Jim> then shift-ctrl-end to highlight.
<Dawn> Holly are you Mac or PC ..and which OS are you using?
<@Holly> Auditing is just auditing, I'm afraid. But I hope we'll have enough stuff to discuss frome everyone's work there that it will be worthwhile for everyone.
<@Holly> PC, Windows 98 SE, Microshit Internet Explorer
<@Jim> Microwhat? <g>
<Cailin> I'd thought so, but I wanted to ask. I'm still going to do the work, though.
<@Holly> I HATE windows!
<Dawn> LOL!!! . .you know Holly I totally understand
<@Jim> That's the same setup here, Holly.
<Dawn> I must crash my system ..with GFP -- all the time ..either that or AOL dies ..
<@Holly> I have yet to have a Microsoft product other than Word that has been worth the money.
<@Jim> I like word.
<@Holly> Yah. I have at least to system deaths a day.
<Cailin> I have Micro$hit Works. It sucks gym socks.
<@Holly> Oh, I LOVE Word. It it because of Word that I use all the rest of this crap.
<@Jim> ooh... not gym socks!
<@Holly> Works is lame.
<@Holly> Word is magnificent.
<@Jim> Does Word work with Linux?
<@Holly> I don't think so. Which is why I haven't committed to the switch yet.
<allikat> I gotta go. See you guys later!
<@Holly> Bye, Alli.
<@Jim> Ah. That might be a good question for Bob.
<Cailin> It lames my computer, nine times out of ten. My sister-in-law is going to load Word 95 for me when we get the computer back.
<@Jim> Bye Alli!
<Cailin> Bye, Allikitten!
<Dawn> Bye Alli
<Cailin> I have to go too - the librarian finally said something to me.
<@Jim> I like the red underlines in Word!
<Dawn> I haven't tried Linix yet ..but then my friend that use it don't do the same thing I do with their computers
<@Holly> I have to go, too -- I've been putting off editing all day. The copyeditor went way, way outside of her bounds, and I'm STETting like a crazy person, and adding yellow Post-It notes in which I politely vent my ire over every stupid change.
<Dawn> opp .. go get em' Holly !!! ..Good night
<Cailin> Politely? That must be a test of even your writing skills!
<@Holly> Oh -- did you guys like your art?
<Dawn> art?? did I miss something?
<@Jim> I'm going to go, too... see you all later... thanks for participating! Loved the art, Holly!
<@Holly> PHbbbbtttttt!
<Cailin> I'll be back same time tommorrow.
<Dawn> Night all
<@Holly> Night, Dawn
<@Jim> On the groupboard, Dawn.
<@Holly> I did all the goofy classroom intro art.
<@Holly> Trying everything, huh?
<@Jim> Not me.
<@Holly> Ah. that leaves Alli.
<@Holly> My son did the squares.
<@Jim> See you later! I plan to be here Thursday for plotting !
<@Holly> Me too. <g> Have fun. catch you later.
<@Jim> What do you draw those with, Holly?
<Venus> I came in because I've got a dead language that I'm developing...and I'm not sure where to go with it
<Alan> Where are you stuck at?
<Venus> just don't know much about dead languages...:)
<@Jim> What seems to be the problem, Venus?
<Venus> I figured out that this language is common enough that the city (which is built on top of another city) has carvings init all over the place
<Venus> It has some type of magical/cultural significance, so I decided I need to name it
<Venus> But I don't know how many people should know the name
<Venus> or how many people should actually be able to read it
<Alan> The only difference between a dead language and a living language is that no one speaks the dead language any more so you can treat it just like a living language
<Venus> I want no one to be able to read the dead language...does that make sense?
<@Jim> Ok... languages evolve, so some of the old city carvings may well be in an older dialect. The name and how many people know it will depend more on the culture than the language itself.
<@Jim> Yes, it makes sense.
alanstephens:
how common are people who speak this dead language
JimMills:
or read it?
venus00:
no one speaks it--maybe three people can read it
alanstephens:
How much development do you think it needs
JimMills:
Why don't people know about it? Why isn't it common knowledge?
venus00:
I don't know--I think it may have significance
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
Hello alan
venus00:
This is very new to me, I have to say
JimMills:
Its existance, that is.
venus00:
I was writing a description of a room and this language being up carved on the floor
venus00:
I'm sorry--I was trying to decide if it should be common knowledge
venus00:
does that make sense?
JimMills:
How long ago (in story time) was the language discovered?
venus00:
many hundreds of years...it was there in the carvings when the people were led (long story) to this particular area
venus00:
it is also carved around the edges of all the wells in the desert
JimMills:
Who discovered it? Would they have had reason to keep it secret or would they have announced it to colleagues and/or the general public?
venus00:
I was thinking that my nomads would have more knowledge of it, and that the people in the city wouldn't...since the nomads have a closer acquaintence to magic
venus00:
jim> good questions...I don't know
venus00:
I'll have to come up with answers
JimMills:
People tend to be curious. If the carvings are so common, they will ask. So knowledge that they exist will be common.
venus00:
okay...that makes senses
venus00:
(typos, sorry)
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
Huh. I have a simlar thing on Ferodoxis, Venus.
venus00:
If this was a language spoken by spirits that no one speaks, would it make sense to name it?
JimMills:
Knowledge of some people studying the carvings may or may not be common... or what extent they have deciphered anything.
alanstephens:
Do other people know about those who can read the language
venus00:
no
alanstephens:
Are those who can read the language main or pov characters
JimMills:
If no one knows ~anything~ about it, then maybe it makes no sense. What part will this play in your world and stories?
jsburke:
hey
venus00:
hi js
JimMills:
Hi Jeff!
JimMills:
We're talking about inventing dead languages.
Anonymous:
hmm...how do you go about it?
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
Hi, Jeff
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
And a ghost
venus00:
jim> I'm trying to figure that out...I think that the language may be carvings that contain some type of blessing or curse--it's very closely linked to a central...diety isn't quite the right word
venus00:
I basically need to think more about this it seems
JimMills:
Think about the Egyptians, Venus. People find cartouches and the scholarly are curious. Someone will want to know what they mean, if they have the time and resources to study them at all.
venus00:
like you said, if no one knows about it or the people who read it, then it doesn't make sense
alanstephens:
Do you need to have a tolkienesque development or just a few key phrases and root words
JimMills:
If it's out in plain sight (the wells) people will talk about it.
venus00:
I don't need any actual words from it at this point--it's just writing
venus00:
If it comes into play more and more, I will
JimMills:
For most stories, you will need only a little bit of detail -- description, etc. The history of the people who made the carvings may be more important than the carvings themselves.
alanstephens:
You said that it was the language of spirits, do they play a significant part in your story
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
True . . .
venus00:
I've got a ton of that (the history I mean)
venus00:
yes, the spirits are a big chunk of it
JimMills:
Were they always spirits? Do spirits make carvings?
JimMills:
Alan has a good question. How significant is this in your story?
alanstephens:
do the spirits speak the language of the present inhabitants of the city
venus00:
I don't know how significant yet
venus00:
the spirits who still live speak the language of the living--when they speak to them
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
You there?
JimMills:
That, it seems, is what you need to determine. It could add to your story, but that will be up to you.
venus00:
I see you ash
JimMills:
Yes, Amy?
alanstephens:
How often do the spirits communicate with the living
venus00:
this has been good insight--I will have to add language to my list of questions for myself
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
Ah, good. Everyone flashed out for a couple minutes. <sigh>
Fetu:
Hi all!
alanstephens:
hello
venus00:
hi fetu
JimMills:
V: Have you read the notes I took in the alien languages seminar at Worldcon last year? They may or may not help.
venus00 privately to JimMills:
private: hey--I wanted to let you know that I enjoyed the synopsis that you posted for the plotting workshop
venus00:
jim> no--where are they?
Fetu:
Sorry, this may've been covered, but I just walked in on the convo: How do the spirits talk with the living?
JimMills:
They are on the Class Transcripts Board.
venus00:
just to clarify--the spirits are alive
venus00:
Those that aren't have become dead
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
Hi, Fetu.
venus00:
(duh) I meant have become ghosts
venus00:
jim> thanks--I will check it out
alanstephens:
How corporeal are they? Can they affect matter?
JimMills privately to venus00:
private: You're welcome, but Holly actually posted it. I just cut and pasted and passed it on to her.
JimMills:
You're welcom.
venus00 privately to JimMills:
private: I meant your novel synopsis, on the private classroom board
venus00:
alan--oh yes, they can effect things in very major ways
Fetu:
Sorry, Venus, but that doesn't answer my question. How do they communicate with the living? Do they have to speak through mediums or is it just normal conversation as we would have?
Fetu:
Hey, Amy.
venus00:
fetu> normal conversation, like a person speaking to a person--they just don't do it very often
JimMills privately to venus00:
private: Oh,,, ok. You're welcome.
alanstephens:
What is the difference between spirits, ghosts and the people living in the city?
venus00:
people are people
Fetu:
Are they intelligent enough to keep up with any changes in language, then? Or would it be the responsibility of the living to remember "Old English" so they could speak to the spirits? Or would there be a particular class or occupation that would have this task?
venus00:
ghosts are spirits who died, or who changed from fear, during the great war between major spirit #1 and #2
venus00:
spirits are like minor gods or angels
alanstephens:
Are the spirits corporeal or insubstantial?
venus00:
alan> either, depending on how they decide to manifest, and how powerful they are
alanstephens:
If I remember right you said that the spirits live in a chamber behind a waterfall can they come out or are they trapped?
venus00:
The minor spirits live behind a waterfall...they are in hiding
AShelton(Planet of the Apes is a gooood movie.):
I have to go . . . see you all later.
venus00:
fetu> the spirits who speak are definitely up to speaking in the current language.
venus00:
bye ash
alanstephens:
See you later
Fetu:
Take it easy, Amy!
venus00:
this is so much to think about...I think I really do need to consider more about the social structure when I consider having carvings like this
Fetu:
Are you getting whatever help you needed, V?
venus00:
I think so...Jim had some good questions and related it to heiroglyphics
venus00:
and everyone has made my brain work, if you know what I mean...
Fetu:
Ooow, sorry I missed it. I like Egyptian stuff.
Fetu:
Hopefully in a good way.
venus00:
I'm a little loopy from writing today as it is...I killed a bunch of characters, including a baby, around 7
JimMills:
it's always good to relate to something you know - pick and choose what parts you want to use, give it a twist to make it yours.
venus00:
7PM I mean---it was a little difficult
JimMills:
I'll post the log later, Fetu.
Fetu:
That's basically what I do, Jim. It seems to work thus far.
Fetu:
Grazie, Jim. I do appreciate it.
venus00:
anyway---I'm going to wait to really decide on the language until I get to the nomads.
venus00:
If anyone would actually be interested in the dead language it would be them...not the people in the city who are currently in play
alanstephens:
It sounds like you have some good ideas
venus00:
right now I'll give it a name at least, the the characters can refer to it by
venus00:
thanks alan
Fetu:
We're getting a thunderboomer in, so if I suddenly go away, you know what happened.
venus00:
k
Fetu:
I'm waiting for something tangible enough to read. <G>
venus00:
lol...not for a while I'm afraid
JimMills:
hope this chat helped, V. Good luck with the writing. You'll have to let us know how it all works out.
<allikat> yep. took me a minute to put my name in, b/c my comp was being slow again
<allikat> hello anon_58
<allikat> ah, jim. hi!
<@Jim Mills> Hi Alli, Amy and Jehane!
<AShelton> <enlarging the screen manually>
<AShelton> Hi, Jim!
<Jehane> Hello
<AShelton> Are you moderating the workshop tonight?
<@Jim Mills> Well, I hadn't planned on it -- we should wait for Doug, but if he doesn't show up, like last week, then we'll field questions.
<AShelton> Sure.
<AShelton> Was I here last week? I don't remember . ..
<@Jim Mills> Last week's session went fairly well... we handled a number of questions about developing alien languages.
<AShelton> Ah. I think I read that transcript.
<AShelton> That's why think I ws there.
<AShelton> Or was I? Oh, nevermind.
<@Jim Mills> I posted it.
<Jehane> Where are the transcripts being kept?
<@Jim Mills> On the Class Transcripts board.
>allikat< All ready for tomorrow night? Holly's first class?
<AShelton> I got the new Enya cd today and there are a couple of songs that fit in very well with a couple concepts I came up with . . . makes me want to write.
<Jehane> Under what heading? I remember looking for some of the first worldbuilding w/s and not finding them.
<@Jim Mills> <-- Enya fan. Hmm... I'll have to pick that one up. <g>
<Jehane> Anything that makes you want to write are good!
<@Jim Mills> Look under Jim Mills' posts... I only post the ones I moderate... I think Doug posts his on the World Building board.
<AShelton> It's called A Day Without Rain . . . one of the mind-grabbing songs (for me) is Tempus Vernum. chantlike and intense, almost dark.
<Jehane> Ummm...I mean IS good.
<@Jim Mills> Anyone have any world building questions?
<Jehane> Thanks Jim. Will do
<AShelton> Okay, on one of the concepts I came up with today . . . how would i explain metallic-blue patterns on/in the skin of people devoted a certain god/country? I mean, beyond "magic/the god's will put them there"?
<AShelton> What I mean to ask is, why would they have their skinn inlaid with blue metal?
<Jehane> Ritualistic tattooing?
<@Jim Mills> I assume you mean they appear 'naturally' and are not painted. Maybe an environmental factor?
<AShelton> No, this is real metal . . . I don't know exactly how it goes on, and have a bare idea why (to match partners), but no reason why they'd have to be in partners or match, for that matter.
<@Jim Mills> It could be a matter of devotional practices. People in Africa and other continents wear bones or stretch their ears or lips.
<AShelton> No, it happens artificially. I know magic is involved . . . but I don't want it to be a simple, "The god did it and now I'm his priest" They train foryears and are marked only when they're considered good enough to be marked, and they are partnered, the patterns match.
<@Jim Mills> If the religious practices say 'do it' and they are raised to 'do it' then they will.
<Jehane> It only happens in the followers of a certain religion?
<AShelton> Hmmmm. Maybe they're cut and the metal magically softened and pressed into the wounds. I have no objection to the marking being painful.
<@Jim Mills> It could be a badge of office of sorts.
<AShelton> It happens only to those "worthy" to be full priests. Children choose to become priests.
<allikat> do they make the paterns match on purpose, or does it happen naturally, when they're being marked?
<@Jim Mills> It sounds like you're looking for a reason for it. Who judges worthiness? The senior priesthood or does the deity appear and do it him/her/itself?
<AShelton> The priests are paired (don't know why yet) and their marks are inset to match--um, mirror-image--each other.
<@Jim Mills> That sounds like there is an intelligence behind it. The question is
<AShelton> Hmmm. good question, Jim. Maybe a bit of both? There are priests who Mark the new priests, but the god works through them? Or oversees the operation?
<@Jim Mills> -- does it just 'happen' or do the priests do it?
<AShelton> Hmmm. Maybe there are Marking-priests who cut the wounds, then the god does the inlay?
<@Jim Mills> It's really up to you -- you are the chief Goddess of your world. <g>
<@Jim Mills> If the priests do it, then it's probably some secret ceremony that only priests are privvy to. Or not. It's up to you.
<AShelton> <g> True . . . <sigh> But I still don't know why they're partnered. I know its important, and that the fact that the marks mirror-image each other when the partnered priests face each other . . .
<allikat> maybe they represent two different sides, like good/evil, male/female, something like that
<@Jim Mills> You can do it however you want, but you should have a reason to do it that way -- and be consistent. It sounds like you just need to find the reason.
<AShelton> Hmm, maybe.
<Jehane> Some kind of cosmic energy, or perhaps it represents a yin/yang thing?
<AShelton> Oh! What if they balance each others' strengths and weaknesses?
<@Jim Mills> That's an idea.
<Jehane> Maybe the pairing indicates that together, they are a balanced being.
<AShelton> Which, in some ways, might make a pair who hate each other a better team than a pair who get along . . .
<Jehane> THey become bonded and consider themselves one being from then on
<AShelton> No, I don't want that . . . considering themselves as one being would, i think, weaken them. They'd become complacent, I think.
<AShelton> Hmmm. And what if the god wanted to make a team of more than two priests . . . . Well. <g>
<@Jim Mills> Well, it sounds as if they are partners. What do they do after partnering?
<AShelton> That's what I'm trying to figure out. Not all the priests are partnereed, only some are, and now I need to figure out what the partnered priests do . . .
<@Jim Mills> It sounds like they're special -- they should do special things.
<AShelton> The unpartnered priests do the general administering to the people thing . . .
<AShelton> Hmmm. maybe two who absolutely detest one another are partnered and their animosity causes them so much trouble they're assigned to the worst place any priest could be told to go . . . Okay, but that's plot here. Still need to figure out what partnered priests do.
<Jehane> What is the role of the priesthood?
<AShelton> Maybe paired priests serve as guards?
<Jehane> Do they protect the country, eg are they warrior priests?
<AShelton> Priesthood=second only to god; the coutnry is a theocracy.
<@Jim Mills> Maybe the deity partners them for his own reasons. From a story point of view, it should be to help the characters grow.
<@Jim Mills> Are the paired priests the senior, policy-making priests, or earmarked to become the senior priests in time?
<AShelton> well, they'll definitely grow. Now I really want to write this to see what I come up with. <sigh>
<AShelton> Good question Jim . . .
<AShelton> I don't think so . . . I see their purpose as being somewhat in the background. They could become leaders, but most don't, because being partnered would tend to teach them to think as a team, and the policy-makers don't do that, though they ask the advice of the paired preists quite often
<Cailin> Or perhaps it is a male and female pairing?
<@Jim Mills> What do they do, then? Travel around and minister to the common man? Undertake great works?
<AShelton> I tend to think it's either-or, that the paired priests are paired by lottery--which the god rigs when he particularly wants things his way.
<@Jim Mills> Interesting idea, Cailin... "ok, we gonna marry you now. There ain't no divorces 'cause you're marked for life!"
<AShelton> Hmm. Maybe they see to "special cases" the unpartnered priests can't deal with for whatever reason?
<AShelton> That could be . . . thanks, Cailin!
<@Jim Mills> (I'm visualizing a guy with an inverted pentagon in his chest, with a big "S" inside the pentagon.
<@Jim Mills> (...in blue metal, of course.)
<AShelton> LOL Jim
<Cailin> Then what the god might want is a particular child to result from the union - whether the couple wanted it or NOT.
<AShelton> In most cases, I think that would be true, because most partners would at least get along. But the two characters who came to mind don't like each other; one's a slave and the other's free and doesn't like that the priesthood accepted a slave.
<AShelton> Maybe the paired priests are paired because they're more likely to produce mageborn children (which is not likely to happen if both parents don't carry the genes--and two mages together are infertile).
<@Jim Mills> Well, sounds like the freeman needs to learn to respect slaves and vice-versa.
<@Jim Mills> Does wielding magic make them infertile?
<Jehane> So are mages in the priesthood or outside?
<AShelton> I'm thinking the slave and freeman wouldn't be parents--that maybe they both have enough potential magic on their own to be mages if they're paired.
<Jehane> And what happens to the children of priests?
<AShelton> To mages can't have children together--they're infertile with each other. a mage can have children with a nonmage, but those children will not be mageborn.
<@Jim Mills> History tells us that may be the reason for church-run orphanages, Jehane.
<AShelton> They're taken to be trained as mages if they're mageborn (and most of them are). If they're not mageborn, they're allowed to live at the temple until the age of majority.
<Jehane> Where does mage potential come from?
<@Jim Mills> How common is magic, Amy? And is it always controlled by the temples?
<AShelton> To have magepotential, one must have had a mageborn ancestor. Not every generation will produce a child with potential.
<@Jim Mills> Is it unpredictable? Or is it regular, like every other generation?
<Jehane> A mageborn ancestor - but not the immediate parent?
<AShelton> In this world, magic is not very common. In the country these priests are in, it's been "controlled" by the temple to preserve magic--this country has the most mages of all the neighboring countries because the temple controlls 'breeding"
<AShelton> Ah! The paired priests can also "tour" the land looking for children with potential, whom they then Mark as prospective priests--if the child so chooses. If the child does not, he/she is still listed for later reference when a descendent of his/hers is discovered and marked.
<@Jim Mills> Gives credence to tracking lineages -- and breeding -- "Your great grandma was a mage..." Which could mean arranged and controlled marriages and mage-testing for the young born of mage-bearing lines.
<AShelton> No, not the immediate parent, ulness both parents have potential, which increases the probability of fully mageborn children.
<AShelton> The temple keeps track of all that . . and has a hand in arranging marriages, to keep the potential as widespread as possible. When the temple stepped in, there were inbred pockets where the potential wasn't being spread and magic was dying out . . .
<@Jim Mills> The temple could move people cross-country just to mix the gene pool.
<@Jim Mills> Are the parents of such a breeding program shown any special favoritism? Such as being nobility or something like that?
<@Jim Mills> Inbreeding of nobles is something people could understand... and if the nobles are 'made' by the priests...
<@Jim Mills> (people = readers)
<AShelton> Na . . . I want to try to avoid nobility . .. though I can see the richer folk trying (and succeeding sometimes) in getting favored by bribing preists.
<@Jim Mills> What do the priests do then to control the lines with mage-talent?
<AShelton> Jon the merchant's son gets a peasant wife. Jenny the heiress gets a swinherd husband. The temple arranges the marriages. What the temple arranges is law.
<AShelton> Which would throw something of a wrench in the works with a pair of priests who were "matched" by the god himself.
<@Jim Mills> So the merchant's new wife moves up and the heiress takes a dive? Or do they follow the other way?
<AShelton> Because perhaps these two priests together can "see' more than the average pair.
<@Jim Mills> Does the god make personal appearances?
<AShelton> jon and Jenny try to bribe their way out of the marriages, the priesthood takes the money, and Jon and Jenny marry their peasant and swineherd.
<AShelton> Hmmm. I don't know if the god makes personal appearances. For the pair who don't get along he does. Before they are paired with each other.
<@Jim Mills> That should be a very motivating factor.
<@Jim Mills> God shows up in ceremony -- out of thin air -- boom -- metal in skin. Pretty impressive.
<AShelton> Well, lets just say that the god wants the slave to learn to look up and he wants the freeman to learn to look around.
<AShelton> Oh! That gave me a great idea, Jim! Thanks. LOL I can have them lottery-paired to other people and the god makes their marks match each other, and not the people their lots ahve been drawn with.
<@Jim Mills> Must take a lot of effort on the god's part. What does s/he get out of it?
<@Jim Mills> Are you in the Developing Mythologies class, Amy?
<AShelton> He gets a very good pair of teamed priests. Most of them are mediocre. They do well enough, but they aren't up to the calibre the god wants to see, so every so often he pairs a couple of priests who don't get along to keep things interesting.
<AShelton> Wish I could be, Jim. My schedule won't permit.
<AShelton> And when he pairs the slave and the freeman, he doens't know just how interesting things will be. <heh heh>
<@Jim Mills> You might ask Lynn if you can be allowed to look at the logs -- they might give you some ideas about developing your mythology.
<@Jim Mills> She said no auditors, though, so I don't know how she'll feel about that.
<@Jim Mills> The question still stands -- what does the god get in return for his efforts? Amusement?
<AShelton> Better planning . . . more appropriate matchings in secular marriages. He knows the pair he puts together can see more than the average pairing, but he doesn't realize that together they can change as much as they will.
<@Jim Mills> That's the effect -- but what good does that do the god?
<@Jim Mills> It just seems your deity needs more justification than "well, he's a god and that's all the reason he needs." Does he get more worshippers and that increases his power? Sacrifices? Land area under his control?
<AShelton> It wakes up his priests--what he really wanted done. It makes the other pairs start working harder--another thing he wanted. It brings about the birth of more children with potential, which means more priests to be paired in the future, which means more mages for his people.
<@Jim Mills> Ah... so his reason is to help these people thrive? Where does he get the power to do the things he does? From the number of mages? That might be a good reason for him to want to promote magekind.
<Cailin> Perhaps it's a certain type of mage that he needs, for a contingency against something terrible that might happen in the future?
<AShelton> Yes . . . particularly those who were raised in the temple.
<@Jim Mills> That could be, too, Cailin. Do you understand what I'm getting at, Amy? If your story answers these questions, then it's a richer story for having done so.
<AShelton> mage who was raised in the temple, by priests and thier paired preiest parents=a devoted mage.
<AShelton> Taht could be it, Jim. He gets his power from the number of mages in the population.
<Cailin> That might also have the opposite of the intended affect, Ash - a mage who's had duty and responsibility rammed down his/her throught all her'his life might rebel.
<@Jim Mills> Has this discussion helped?
<Cailin> Hell, *I'd* rebel, and I've devoted my LIFE to magick!
<@Jim Mills> Yes, Cailin - there will always be those who rebel against authority.
<@Jim Mills> Any closing comments?
<AShelton> True . . . Nope, jsut that this has really helped . . .I may go and write a little to see where all this goes.
<@Jim Mills> Ok - glad it helped. Have a good one... and keep writing. <g>
<@Jim> Hi Gayle! Welcome!
<gayle garrod> Hi. I guess even with all my fustrations of getting in I'm early
<@Jim> In past weeks there have been more people here. Do you have any worldbuilding questions?
<gayle garrod> Let me think a minute
<gayle garrod> Okay. I've got a planet that I've been writing about that I've done some mathematical calculations on but how did I actually set the (3)different continents on the planet
<gayle garrod> that should read 'do'
<@Jim> Hi Holly! Gayle, that's entirely up to you. Do you mean how should you arrange them or how the ecology should work?
<gayle garrod> both
<gayle garrod> espesically since the northern continent has a set of mountains almost down it's center that divid it completely into two different societies
<@Jim> How you should arrange them is up to you. In my newest work, I've based the land map on Pangaea, which is Earth 165 million years ago. You can arrange the continents however you like.
<@Jim> That works. Holly, how did you decide on your maps for Secret Texts?
<Holly> There wasn't really any decision involved. I sat down with pencils, compass, and the knowledge that I had to come up with a big book concept or my career was going to go down the toilet.
<Holly> I drew the maps, having absolutely no idea what those giant holes came from. I just trusted my gut that they were something important.
<@Jim> It seems to have worked out well.
<Holly> I didn't really even know for sure what they were, or how they'd been created, until I was well into book three of the series.
<gayle garrod> I haven't. The ancient manuscripts are in a language that anyone, if they want to, can learn
<@Jim> I guess what we're saying, Gayle, is that you can arrange it as you see fit, but the features of your map should have some bearing on the story.
<Holly> Or, if you do it the way I did, the telling of the story will have some relationship to the features on the map.
<@Jim> Your characters have to deal with or at least comment on the difficulties of traveling over or around those mountains.
<gayle garrod> Okay. Well the only two continents that are currently in my head are the northern and the souther
<gayle garrod> that should read southern
<Holly> Mountains like that will affect weather, trade, culture, language, . . . .pretty much everything.
<gayle garrod> How? The would be almost as tall as the sierra's
<@Jim> The rivers will flow mostly from the mountains, which will form a continental divide, much like the Rocky Mountains here in the US.
<@Jim> Mountains do tend to affect weather... one side will tend to get more rain than the other.
<gayle garrod> However the top is liveable because one of my character's lives on the top
<Holly> How thin is the air, what modifications has your character made to live there, where does he or she get food and what kind of food is it, who dose he associate with . . . ? I can think of a million questions.
<Holly> If you're going to stick someone at the top of high mountains, you're going to have to figure out how they manage to sustain life there.
<@Jim> People live in the mountains of Equador and Peru, but they have had long acclimation to the thin air and climate conditions.
<Holly> And, while the climate there are bad, those are green mountains. Stuff grows pretty much all the way to the top.
<Holly> Our rockies would be hellish to try to live on top of.
<@Jim> You could live on the sides, but still be well up the mountain. Gayle, you may want to get a book titled World Building by Stephen L. Gillett... published by Writers Digest Books... it may help answer a lot of your questions.
<gayle garrod> okay...that's an easy change
<gayle garrod> hi Jim Mills
<@Jim Mills> I got punted... sorry about that. Did you get my last note about the World Building book?
<@Jim Mills> Hi
<gayle garrod> yes Holly PRIVATE -- Apologize for leaving. I have a three-year-old who has to go to bed. He's undergone the nightly transformation and has turned into a Demon Childe.
>Holly< Ok... see you later Holly!
<@Jim Mills> If you can't find the book at the library or a bookstore, you could try the Writers Digest Book Club at WritersDigest.com.
<@Jim Mills> Hi Kaelle!
<gayle garrod> okay
<Kaelle> Hi, Jim!
<@Jim Mills> Gayle: How many moons does your world have?
<gayle garrod> one moon two suns
<@Jim Mills> Intresting... the two suns may affect tides, thought not as much as the moon.
<@Jim Mills> And two suns could affect seasonal changes as well, depending on the nature of the suns.
<gayle garrod> did the figuring back in '94 then put it all away. Picked it back up about 18 months ago.
<gayle garrod> one is a blue white and the other is a white yellow
<@Jim Mills> Are the paired suns of equal heat and brightness, or does one ... you answered my question. One will be cooler and dimmer, then.
<gayle garrod> yes
<gayle garrod> I did the calculation to come up with the amount of days I wanted in their 'cycle' (year)
<@Jim Mills> The inhabitants may have interesting names for seasons then... the bright season, the dim season, or something like that.
<@Jim Mills> Cool. What did you decide on?
<gayle garrod> Don't have all the papers right at hand ...but there are 15 rounds (months) in a cycle ...just a minute ...let me use the caluclator
<Kaelle> Quick question. I have a silver mine located in a mountain, and it occurred to me to check on that. Do you know if that would that be correct?
<gayle garrod> Well there was the silver mines in colorado
<@Jim Mills> My latest effort has 301 days in a year... I came up with names for the days and years, but don't have them in front of me. The ten months are called Marens.
<gayle garrod> It's approximently 465 days
<@Jim Mills> Sure, K, you can have mines just about anywhere there's rock.
<Kaelle> lol
<@Jim Mills> Long year, G... how does that affect their temperature and seasons?
<Kaelle> Thanks! Off to work, then. Bye!
<gayle garrod> What I had imagined back in '93 was they had one season (3 rounds) that was very hot and one that was wet/snow
<@Jim Mills> Bye, Kaelle!
<gayle garrod> a couple of the the others were like our spring and fall
<gayle garrod> I don't remember what I was going to do for the fifth season
<@Jim Mills> Okay... and that would vary by location, affected by ocean currents, the mountains, etc., as well as the latitude.
<gayle garrod> I think I need to get a hold of that book...want Tyrella to be as real to others as it is in my mind
<@Jim Mills> I saw a program earlier today in which they were talking about how global warming could alter the gulf stream and make England a much colder place to be in winter... more like Minnesota. If you get cable, you may want to check out the programs on the Discovery Science channel.
<gayle garrod> I don't ...but I can get a neighbor to record it for me so we can watch the video...the only thing our set is good for at this point in time
<@Jim Mills> That would work. The program I saw was Earth Below... I think...
<@Jim Mills> Are you a member of the Writers Digest Book Club? You can get the book from them at a discount.
<gayle garrod> Just looked in my book case ...I do own the world-building book.... must have been one of my last purchases before I left the bookstore
<@Jim Mills> lol... sounds like you have some reading to do.
<gayle garrod> yeah it does...
<gayle garrod>
<@Jim Mills> Any other questions I can try to help you with?
<gayle garrod> I think I'll wait until I attempt to read the book then maybe I'll have a list full of questions
<gayle garrod> thank you for the help
<@Jim Mills> Ok... you're welcome. See you next week. Good luck, and keep writing!
<@Jim2> We have some time to kill before the workshop... anything you'd like to discuss?
<Jehane> Nothing I can think of at the moment
<Jehane> Well, it's more society building than worldbuilding, but I'd like to bounce a few ideas off someone.
<@Jim2> go ahead.
<Jehane> My main country (not the whole world) has the church separate to the state.
<Jehane> The state is patriarchal monarchy - strictly patriarchal, the throne goes to distant cousins rather than daughters.
<Jehane> The church is matriarchal, and only women may serve as high priestesses.
<@Jim2> Sounds like a good source of conflict and tension. What's the question?
<Jehane> Don't know yet, just trying to sort it allout in my head.
<@Jim> I see. Well, you have precedents you can study, like Henry VIII, the Catholic Church and the Church of England.
<@Jim> I'm sure there are other political-religious situations you could study. You may want to consider joining the developing mythologies class.
<Jehane> Did think about it, but I've been very busy the past couple of weeks (had a visitor).
<Jehane> Plus I'm a shiftworker and can't always make a set day/time.
<@Jim> Ah. Well, the class runs 3 months and I don't think Lynn's too keen on the idea of people not starting at the beginning. But she'll probably run it again next winter or so. The time issue could be a kicker, but you could always read transcripts, too.
<Jehane> I"ll read the transcripts if they're up.
<@Jim> They are, but they're on a private board. You'll have to ask Lynn for access.
<@Jim> Welcome, anonymous one!
<@Jim> Hi Alan! :}
<Jehane> Does it deal with religions only, because what I really need is socio-political systems.
<Jehane> Hello Alan
<Alan> hello
<@Jim> The focus so far has been on religions (mythos). She may get into that later.
<Alan> What are we discussing tonight
<@Jim> Worldbuilding. We were talking about socio-political stuff. What would you like to discuss?
<Alan> That sounds good to me
<@Jim> Jehane said, "My main country (not the whole world) has the church separate to the state. The state is patriarchal monarchy - strictly patriarchal, the throne goes to distant cousins rather than daughters. The church is matriarchal, and only women may serve as high priestesses.
<@Jim> Do you have any specific questions, Jehane?
<Jehane> No, just writing down some thoughts at the moment.
<Jehane> Maybe Alan has some questions?
<@Jim> What would you like to talk about, Alan?
<Alan> Not really. I just stopped in to see what is going on
<Alan> I was hoping that the discussion would spark some ideas like it usually does.
<Jehane> Well Jim, do you have any questions?
<Jehane> Actually I come here because I like worldbuilding, not because I have a specific question.
<Alan> Hi Andi
<@Jim> Sometimes it does... lol Jehane... well... what effects do you think it would have on a world's culture and politics if the 'gods' were real people, showed up, exhibited great power, and generally told people what to do?
<@Jim> Hi Andi! Andi My chat window crashed. Could you say "Bye!" for me there?
<Jehane> suddenly, or as a matter of course?
<Jehane> Hi Andi Andi Hi all!
<Jehane> Assuming suddenly...It depends on how seriously they take their religion/gods
<Andi> Hi all!
<@Jim> J: Been that way for a long time... one or two thousand years.
<Andi> Well, I'd have to wonder what their relationships were with the gods before I could respond to that.
<@Jim> A: I 'byed' them for you.
<Andi> Not all gods are worshipped with reverence, after all. Many were worshipped out of fear.
<Andi> Dankers, Jim.
<Jehane> The high priests would not like it since they would no loinger be the voice of god - the gods would have their own voices.
<@Jim> True... and with what these gods can do, they would be feared. But some are kindly and would be loved.
<Jehane> Do the gods act true to their reputation?
<@Jim> The high priests would have been raised with the situation all their lives, J.
<Alan> The growth of the people might be stunted because they can always look to the gods for answers or help.
<Andi> As a matter of course, the Greeks worshipped out of fear--they did their rites to keep the gods FROM noticing them. Being "blessed" by a god was a terrible, terrible thing to their culture. Their legends were told as Europeans told fairy tales--to teach children what NOT to do.
<@Jim> J: Usually they do.
<Andi> My next question would be: HOW do they come among people?
<@Jim> Teleport, usually. They are also master shapeshifters, so they can appear as giants or as any man or woman... or beast.
<Jehane> I would say the society would become a theocracy - how could a mortal rule when there are gods around?
<@Jim> Good point, J.
<Andi> No, that's not what I meant,. Jim, sorry. I meant--do people KNOW they're gods when they're here, or do they come in disguise?
<Jehane> Unless the gods were not interested in ruling - but they'd surely interfere, just as in Ancient Greece
<@Jim> They aren't interested in the day to day details... but they are interested in using people and manipulating events for their own ends.
<Alan> How much aid or advice do the gods dispense?
<Jehane> It would be like a constant political campaign, each gods trying to get more followers and to convert people. OR destroy the opposition.
<Andi> That would depend on what the gods' relationship and need for worship is, Je. I can see where it's only a sign of loyalty rather than a source of power.
<@Jim> A: However much they choose. J: True. Good points.
<@Jim> While the 'gods' can wield a lot of power, it's not without limits. They still need armies of humans if they're going to influence events in the world.
<Alan> Do the people rely on the gods to solve problems for them or do things for themselves?
<@Jim> Mostly they do things for themselves... though they may seek aid for healing or sometimes for political advantages.
<Jehane> So there'll be constant warring between gods as they seek dominance.
<Andi> Question, Jim: Is this the kind of thing you want for your gods? Is this helping?
<@Jim> I'm kind of developing this as I go... there are several 'pantheons' and the leaders of those pantheons generally forbid fights between the gods.
<Andi> What is the gods' purpose for coming to earth anyway?
<@Jim> I'm not sure, Andi. I am building it as I go... but I want magic and the immortal mages became powerful gods... with servants who figure prominently in the story I'm working on.
<Andi> Is this for the class?
<Jehane> How do followers determine their faith? Do people of a particular region worship particular gods?
<@Jim> Yes. Not Earth... Arra... they didn't become gods until after they mastered magic.
<Andi> First off, you have to figure out what the gods have to gain by doing this. If they have nothing to gain from it (and "just for the helluva" counts), then they wouldn't bother doing it.
<@Jim> J: I haven't figured that out yet, but the pantheons are basically North, South, East and West.
<Andi> This has a Chinese or other Oriental flare to it, right, Jim?
<Jehane> If they have transcened the mortal plane, why aren' they trying to go further still?
<@Jim> A: I tend to agree... they wouldn't do it just cause they're nice guys wanting to help others. The East faction is Oriental-like. J: I haven't worked it out that far.
<Jehane> It reminds me of Jonathon Livingston Seagull - has anyone read that?
<Andi> The Oriental Culture was about perserving the Status Quo at all costs. Are you figuring that in anywhere, or are you just taking the trimmings of it?
<@Jim> Heard of it. Haven't read it.
<Dan> Did I make it in?
<Andi> A few hundred years ago, Jehane.
<Andi> You're in, Dan.
<@Jim> Hi Dan. A: In the East, yes. Not the same motivations in the West.
<Andi> It's a 20 minute read if you're stump-stupid, Dan. I think it's hard to find now, though.
<Dan> Your talking only chinese right Andi?
<Jehane> Hi Dan
<Dan> Japanese were very progressive.
<Andi> I'm talking pretty much Chinese, Japanese and, frankly, Egyptian. Your place in afterlives were valued by how much you maintained the status quo while you were alive. Frightening, eh?
<Andi> June tried to get in, but crashed thrice. Said she'd love to pop in, but can't. <s>
<Andi> We're talking ancient, Dan--pre-Westernization.
<Dan> Japanese did believe in progrssion prior to westernization - but your right in seclusion.
<Andi> Are you talking about the transcending part being like Jonathon, Jehane?
<@Jim> We could go to the alternate classroom if she'd like to join us. Jonathan Livingston Seagull is available from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380012863/qid=998872769/sr=2-1/002-2330430-9133629
<Andi> June has problems posting in ALL classrooms. As soon as she does, her computer locks up & it's an automatic 3 reboot cycle to get back online.
<Jehane> Yes. JLS transcended the mortal plane only to find himself in yet another plane of existence, in which there was more to learn.
<Andi> That's what I was thinking too, Jehane. Jim--find it at a used bookstore, honestly.
<Dan> Ever seen "Defending your Life" by Albert Brooks, it's on here now actually!?
<Jehane> It's been out for more than 20 years. SHould have no trouble finding a used copy.
<@Jim> Here's the blurb: "Most gulls don't bother to learn more than the simplest facts of flight--how to get from shore to food and back again," writes author Richard Bach in this allegory about a unique bird named Jonathan Livingston Seagull. "For most gulls it is not flying that matters, but eating. For this gull, though, it was not eating that mattered, but flight." Flight is indeed the metaphor tha
<Andi> I think you've got a lot of thinking left to do, Jim, before you can start thinking about how the gods' showing up is effecting your peoples.
<@Jim> Flight is indeed the metaphor that makes the story soar. Ultimately this is a fable about the importance of seeking a higher purpose in life, even if your flock, tribe, or neighborhood finds your ambition threatening.
<Jehane> D: No, what's it about?
<@Jim> I agree, Andi... but it's an idea I'd like to explore.
<Dan> I disagree, among seagulls, everyone could fly
<Andi> Oh, definitely, Jim--but until you know WHY the Gods are coming down and WHAT they are doing here, how can you know how the people are going to react?
<Dan> He had to go beyond, it was far more than flight!
<Andi> Personally, I thought it was a very vaguely veiled alagory to Jesus Christ--and I was 15 when I read it. <shrug>
<Dan> It's been many years since I read it, but he never FELT he was in the right place.
<Jehane> JC? I would be surprised. Richard Bach is not a big fan of organised religion.
<@Jim> Ok. here's the idea. The 'Gods' are mages that acquired immortality and learned to tap enourmous power. They have to keep worshippers (maybe it's the source of their power) so they are active in the world. This has gone on for a long time.
<Jehane> Then again, I never picked up the Aslan/JC link either.
<Andi> Question: if they have attained godhood by their own magical abilities--HOW would they need worshippers to sustain it?
<Dan> Jim> our world, or building another world?
<Andi> Different world-, Dan.
<@Jim> They attained immortality and a certain amount of power, but by drawing power from the masses, they became truly powerful.
<Andi> So this is part of their magic?
<@Jim> And yes, it's a different world. Yes, it's part of their magic.
<Andi> Did they have to drain this power in order to become gods?
<@Jim> To a degree, yes.
<Jehane> They would spend a large part of their time gathering followers.
<Dan> Jehan, the sacrifice at the Stone Table should have shwn that to you....
<Andi> OK, then that makes sense then.
<@Jim> Think of the Dragons in Holly's Secret Texts... in a way.
<Andi> So they NEED the followers to sustain their "rightful" place in the world. Gotcha.
<Andi> Still haven't read those, Jim, sorry. <s>
<Dan> Any God would.
<Andi> I can't read a book & write a book at the same time.
<@Jim> Great books. You should read 'em. <g>
<Andi> I don't agree, Dan, but that's not what Jim's getting at here.
<Andi> Top of the TBR stack--once I get done with the Maass Class Book. <G>
<Dan> Did you read them?
<Jehane> Dan, I'm not religious, so I didn't get the connection. AFAIK, I was reading (as a child) a child's fantasy novel.
<Andi> AFAIK?
<@Jim> Yes, I've read them. And I read and highlighted the Maass book the week I got it.
<Jehane> As far as i know
<Andi> Thanks.
<Jehane> knew, in that case
<Andi> Can I see if I can summarize what you're getting at, Jim?
<@Jim> Sure.
<Andi> 1. You have human mages who have become so powerful (via magic & soaking up power from others) that they have made themselves into gods.
<Dan> I was raised as a christian, but CSL went beyond my religious upbringing to me, but I could see the likeness when I was only 7.
<Andi> There are four pantheons in this world--one for each Direction.
<Andi> One of them has an Oriental feel to them. The others are up in the air.
<Andi> These pantheons may be at war with each other--I'm not clear on that part.
<Andi> You would like these gods to come down and mess with earthly affairs, but there's lots of unanswered questions here.
<Andi> Why do they do it? What do they do? How much do they want to rule?
<@Jim> Pantheons: West are greek-like, North are Norse-like, South are African-like.
<Andi> KO. June & I can help you on Norse, if you'd like, if you catch us in chat or post questions on the board.
<Andi> Did I get about everything?
<Dan> I evidently came in too late to figure much of this out - I'll leave now and read the transcript later, then I'll make comments.
<Andi> June can also help you in Greek--she was a Classics major in college.
<Andi> Take it easy, Dan!
<@Jim> Yes, Andi, and I've been researching Norse for the Mythology class. Why do they do it: to control worshippers. What do they do: mostly advise, some healing, some magical aid, occasionally they blow up things like city blocks, but the other gods frown on that.
<@Jim> How much do they want to rule? Only as much as is needed to assure worshippers, preferably in growing numbers.
<Andi> LOL! Well, they were never really known for doing things small, were they? Don't know if my reference post helped before I bailed the class.
<Andi> Here's a question, Jim: Do they have active breeding programs? Do the gods want them to have LOTS of children to be brought up "properly"? Are large families rewarded?
<@Jim> I'll have to look up the post you mentioned. Yes on breeding. Good idea. They have to have food and such to support them of course, and humankind came to this world and found it to be a bit hostile.
<@Jim> So they had to fortify to survive (think of suddunly finding yourself living in Jurassic Park -- the whole World is like that).
<Andi> Sorry, I've got to go, guys. Time to feed the hounds, bathe & start thinking about bed. <s> I hate having to get up so bloody early in the morning.
<Jehane> so humans aren't native to this planet?
<Andi> Ciao!
<@Jim> Bye Andi -- thanks for the comments! J: non originally, no. they've been there about 2,000 years.
<Jehane> BYe Ansi
<Jehane> Andi, I mean
<@Jim> a little over 2,100 years.
<Jehane> Jim, the gods were human originally, so did they become gods then take their followers to this other planet, or did they become gods on this planet?
<@Jim> They became gods on Arra, after coming to this planet or parallel dimension.
<Jehane> So they had to overcome the harshness of this planet without the aid of gods.
<@Jim> Yes, they did. Some learned to work magic... it's a magic-active world. It's a mystery how they came here... the people on Arra have some clues and it may figure into the story as a subplot. Not sure yet.
<Jehane> Why do the people now need gods? Is it a convenience thing, like electricity?
<@Jim> In part, the gods protect them from the dinosaurs, tho they don't call them that... they call them hunter lizards, or grazing lizards.
<@Jim> This is a good discussion. It's really helping me flesh out some of the ideas pecolating in my head. Thanks! <g>
<Jehane> Not terrible lizards?
<@Jim> Sort of... raptors, t-rex's...
<@Jim> things like that.
<@Jim> Dan - I'll post the transcript after the class... on the class transcripts board... if you want to read it.
<Jehane> How did the original people survive the lizards without gods to protect them AND become gods?
<@Jim> oops, he's gone.
<@Jim> That's lost in antiquity, tho they may find old references in the course of the story... essentially, they ran and hid until one or more of them developed potent magic.
<Jehane> Do the gods destroy the lizards? That could do interesting things to the ecology.
<Jehane> Actually, just having the introduced human species wreaking magic would do interesting things to ecology
<@Jim> No. Only selectively. The lizards are herd beasts for some... they allow the hunters to survive to maintain the ecology and because it'd be so much trouble to hunt them all. There are some who strive to keep the human interference to a minimum... though it's a losing battle.
<@Jim> Mostly the gods have devised ways of keeping the lizards out of the cities, towns and crop areas, and ways of protecting travelers.
<@Jim> The humans are the only mammals on Arra,
<Jehane> This is a huge advantage to them. It helps explain how they outrun the reptiles.
<Jehane> And perhaps helps them hunt.
<@Jim> "This" meaning the magic or the only mammals?
<Jehane> THe only mammals.
<Jehane> Assuming the other animals are either reptilian or fish.
<@Jim> The lizards can be quite fast. Current speculation is that Trex could run much faster than a man.
<Jehane> Yes, but the jury's still out on that one.
<@Jim> True, but it makes sense in a lot of ways. Everyone has an opinion, of course.
<Jehane> Also, it would suggest that many dinosaurs were not true reptiles.
<@Jim> No, they weren't. They were the precursors of common species still on earth. Ever see a bird?
<@Jim> Of course, some were true reptiles. Alligators and crocodiles, for example.
<Jehane> From what I remember, birds were descended from reptiles, which were early dinosaurs.
<Jehane> Later dinosaurs diverged and you had more dinosaurs, and bird prototypes
<Jehane> eg the famous archaeopteryx
<@Jim> That's also a matter of conjecture. Current thought is that the birds may have come earlier. I'm not an expert, though. We should ask Sarah (Dolphin Girl).
<Jehane> been a while since i looked at palaeontology
<@Jim> I've been watching a lot of the current shows on the Discovery Science channel. Fascinating subjects.
<Anon_62> hmm....no one here yet
<@Jim> I'm here...
<Rang> hi
<@Jim> Hi there Rang!
<Rang> Hi Jim
<Rang> cool picture
<Rang> hi Anne
<Rang> hehehh....this is neat...we are belong in the dictionary
<Rang> Mills, Marble, Rang
<Rang> or even Lieu, my last name
<Rang> Guess that means we don't have trouble with spellcheck and our names
<Rang>
<Anne_Marble> Howdy
<@Jim> Hi Anne!
<Anne_Marble> My name is Anne Marble, and I stink at worldbuilding. <g>
<Anne_Marble> So far. <wink>
<@Jim> My name works pretty good with the spell check. <g>
<@Jim> ::chorus shouts:: "Hi, Anne!"
<Anne_Marble> Hello Anon_86.
<@Jim> I have books te help with some of that.
<Rang> anon, put your name in the top box and press enter
<Anne_Marble> I have the link to Patricia Wrede's fantasy worldbuilding questions site.
<Rang> wonder how many ppl we'll get on a labor day weekend
<Rang> The last one with Holly was packed, but the friday night one was a bit emptier
<@Jim> Cool... what is it? I'd like to check it out.
<Rang> yes, do tell
<Anne_Marble> Let me go look for the link
<Jehane> Hello everyone
<Rang> Anonymous folks, give us a name, will ya?
<Anne_Marble> http://www.io.com/~eighner/world_builder/world_builder_index.html
<Anne_Marble> That URL will wrap.
<Anon_86> peter
<Jehane> Type your name in the little box
<Rang> and press enter
<Rang> the name box on the top right
<Anne_Marble> Cute
<Sarah> .
<Rang> hi Sarah, Jehane, Peter
<Anne_Marble> Yo Sarah!
<@Jim> Hi, Everyone!
<Anne_Marble> Yo all new people!
<Sarah> There...
<Rang> neat site, Anne...think I'll bookmark it
<kewms> Hi all.
<@Jim> R: I beat you to it!
<Rang> lol
<Anne_Marble> If you ever try to print the list, make sure you have lots of paper on hand.
<Rang> hi Kewms
<Rang> thx for the tip <g>
<@Jim> Ok, it's 8pm... 7pm my time. Welcome to the Worldbuilding Workshop... I don't know if Doug will make it this week... he's been kind of busy moving. So... anyone have any worldbuilding questions?
<Anne_Marble> Yes, how do you do it?!
<@Jim> lol - well, that depends. How hard do you want the science to be? Even in a fantasy world, you need to consider some scientific things to keep believability. Or disregard the science and world setting and just plop down a continent. How extensive do you want to be?
<Anne_Marble> I want it to be more logical. I don't have to be the Larry Niven of fantays writers. But I want the climates and environments to make sense.
<Jehane> Get some good books on geology and meteorology.
<Sarah> For climates and environments, Bio, Botany, and Enviro texts can be a great source.
<Jehane> There will (hopefully) be an article in November's Vision about meteorology.
<Anne_Marble> I can understand the bio stuff, but my brain turns off at some of the harder science.
<@Jim> Ok. Well, there isn't any really short way to do it. If you want to be scientifically and meteorologically accurate, you'll need to spend a lot of time studying the system we know... Earth. But you needn't go that far in most cases for a fantasy book.
<@Jim> You can get by with the basics and make some assumptions. Things like it's hotter at the equator than the poles -- unless you have an odd axial tilt to the planet.
<Anne_Marble> Glad I have a bio degree.
<Anne_Marble> A lot of the early fantasy writers seemed to simply take Europe's map and adjust it somewhat. It worked for what they needed.
<@Jim> And they do exist, btw... I think it's Pluto that points its north pole at the sun.
<Jehane> Uranus, I think
<Jehane> And Venus spins backwards
<Sarah> Remember that mountains can block weather systems, so you can have completely different environments on either side of a big obstruction like that.
<Jehane> Do you have a particular environment you're not sure about?
<kewms> The bigger the mountain the bigger the difference, right?
<@Jim> If that will work for you, Anne, then do it. But you can get some really esoteric systems going if you do something different. Anyone notice the map in the front of Diplomacy of Wolves? Notice that it took a book and a half before those mysterious circles were hinted at in the story?
<Anne_Marble> I'm just writing about a little village right now....
<Anne_Marble> But I'd like the village to fit into its kingdom and into its geology.
<@Jim> Ah, but that little village has other villages not too far away, and maybe a city a little further away... maybe another nation to worry about invading... maybe periodic floods or hurricanes...
<Jehane> kewms - up to a point. It also depends on orientation of the mountains relative to the wind flow
<Rang> is there any website you know with geography rules or geography world building? so we don't end up with a tundra in the middle of a rainforest?
<kewms> J--I'm thinking of the Rockies and Appalachians in the US. Which of course has West->East prevailing winds.
<Rang> just b/c it would be convenient to hv that in our story? lol
<@Jim> There's a debate on right now about how global warming may alter the path of the gulf stream and turn great brittain's weather into minnesota's winters.
<Jehane> I have just bought a book - THe Dynamic Earth. It looks pretty good.
<Morgen_Kirby> there are D&D mapping programs
<Rang> hi Morgen
<Morgen_Kirby> hi Rang, thanks for the invite
<Rang> np...Dand D mapping programs? do tell
<kewms> Some of the Sim games do a reasonable job. (SimEarth, for instance)
<@Jim> Most mapping programs I've seen don't take into consideration ecological or meteorolgical factors.
<@Jim> tell us aboun sim earth, K
<Jehane> kewms - yes, you'd get a rain shadow on the east side then (the rockies are N-S?)
<Anne_Marble> And besides the geological stuff, there's politics, culture, religion, etc., etc. gasp, gasp, gasp
<Rang> I'm more interested in worldbuilding in terms of society and social structures/political systems...and advice on that?
<Morgen_Kirby> wish I could remember what it's called
<kewms> J--Yes, Rockies run N-S, as do Appalachians.
<Morgen_Kirby> brb
<kewms> Rockies are bigger, have more dramatic rain shadow.
<Sarah> When I'm trying to worldbuild, I just really pay attention to what I'm doing (shopping, trips to the doctor's office, waiting in line at the Regstrar's office) and ask how they'd do it in my world and why.
<Rang> rain shadows...note to self....look that up in a geography text <g>
<kewms> Jim--SimEarth is from Maxis, the same people who did SimCity and a bunch of similar games.
<@Jim> social and political structures will depend, to a degree, on travel... how easy is it for the cultures to interact?
<Anne_Marble> That's a good idea, Sarah.
<kewms> Don't know if it's still in print.
<kewms> R--Rain shadow is like it sounds. Lots of rain on West side of Rockies, little on East.
<Morgen_Kirby> lots of rain on rotation side, or lots of rain on side closest to the ocean?
<kewms> Western Wash. State is rain forest, east is desert.
<Rang> gotcha...wonder if rainshadows appy to ranges oriented perpendicular to prevailing winds
<Rang> apply*
<Jehane> Lots of rain on windward side
<@Jim> I get a number of links if I search for it on Yahoo, K...
<Rang> or parallel to prevailing winds
<Jehane> Rain shadows apply IF the ranges are perpendicular
<Rang> gotcha
<kewms> Jim--Biggest problem w/Simearth is it's really easy to create an unviable planet.
<@Jim> You'll also get river run-offs from the mountains, but that can be sporadic.
<Morgen_Kirby> would make a parallel set of mountain ranges interesting, Id think
<Jehane> Parallel - would have to be exactly parallel, but even so I have noticed a definite favourite side.
<Rang> or even an mountainous enclosure/valley
<Anne_Marble> I can't even create a viable Roman city in that Caesar game.
<@Jim> M - sure - you could have a lush valley or a desert... or anything in between.
<Jehane> A mountain enclosure would likely be reasonably dry, or a lake.
<kewms> J--Like Great Basin in Utah?
<Jehane> Likely to have fog problems
<Jehane> Don't know great basin
<Jehane> not in US
<Jehane> describe?
<@Jim> it's where the great salt lake is.
<Rang> salt lake city's namesake
<Jehane> Is that dry, or wet?
<kewms> Salt Lake is wet, but salty.
<Morgen_Kirby> brb
<kewms> Great Basin is pretty dry. High desert in between two bigger mountain ranges.
<kewms> Takes up most of Nevada and Utah, if you have a map handy.
<@Jim> map: http://ut.water.usgs.gov/greatsaltlake/
<Jehane> thank you. will check it out
<Rang> then there's the question of how much you can change if you add magic or technology to the mix
<@Jim> if you click on the links on that page, you can get a satellite image.
<Anne_Marble> And how much can get destroyed if you add them to the mix. (Look at the world in the Secret Texts.)
<Rang> but the modifications still need to be physically viable, I suppose....can't just use magic/tech as a cure-all for sloppy worldbuilding
<Rang> or can u?
<kewms> R--Right. Unless you're going to have constant magical/technological adjustments.
<@Jim> That's true, Rang... you can't. The readers will shoot you down.
<kewms> In which case all heck breaks loose if the magicians die or leave.
<@Jim> Unless you make it believable.
<Anne_Marble> Didn't Roger Zelazny create a world that changed a lot? (The Changing World?) But ... I'm no Roger Zelazny!
<Morgen_Kirby> night folks...my personal world, otherwise known as my children and husband, is demanding attention
<Morgen_Kirby> Anne, are you thinking of Amber, maybe?
<@Jim> You can be, Anne... you just need to develop the skills he has.
<Anne_Marble> There was another series, it started after that. Madwand?
<kewms> But look what happened to Amber when someone's death curse broke the Pattern.
<@Jim> I read Madwand ... a long time ago.
<@Jim> And the Amber series... both of them.
<@Jim> am I still connected?
<kewms> I can still see you, Jim.
<Rang> yes
<Jehane> yes, I was just wondering the same thing
<Anne_Marble> Yes
<Rang> any ideas on how to maintain focus if you have characters roaming on map to increase scope of story?
<@Jim> Your focus should be on the characters.
<Rang> it's too easy to start losing cohesion if you sink into world too much and get diverted by the various things irrelevant to story in world...at least that's my prob
<kewms> Is focus on characters, setting, or on the roaming itself (as a quest)?
<@Jim> The setting is background.
<kewms> R--Are you getting big expository lumps?
<Rang> but the setting brings with it social/religious/political institutions when you start roaming across borders...and these will have impact on characters and intereactions
<@Jim> Your focus needs to be on the characters and how they react to the environment, not on the environment itself.
<Jehane> If your characters are travelling, this gives you a way to explain things.
<Rang> I want to add some geographical roaming to give sense of scope and world...instead of staying stuck in one city for whole story
<Sarah> I think the key is to work out all the details for yourself, and then only use what you need. THe hint of depth will be there, but if you know how everything works, you won't contradict yourself.
<Rang> but when I do that, I get distracted by the things that they interact with when the main story still wraps around city
<kewms> Why would the characters leave the city?
<Anne_Marble> Some things will be constant. The characters, their society and backgrounds, maybe even the religion and language
<Jehane> Your characters can learn more about the world, and your readers can do so with them
<@Jim> Paraphrasing Holly: No one is interested in your worldbuilding but you... the editors and readers are interested in the action and characters.
<Rang> the story feels right and complete if confined to city, but I wanted to add some geographical variety to give sense of distance and scope...this is now interfering with focus of story
<@Jim> If in presenting the characters in action you have them observing and interacting in the world around them, that's good.
<Jehane> Repeating kewms - if your main action is in the city, why do they leave?
<Rang> to add some scope and variety to story...to make it more
<Rang> rich
<Anne_Marble> Could you have people from outside the city coming in and interacting with the characters?
<@Jim> R: You need your characters to have a reason that compels them to leave the city... not just because...
<kewms> A big city contains lots of richness all by itself.
<Rang> yes. That's a good possibility, Anne, thx.
<kewms> Showing off your worldbuilding may be fun, but is not a legitimate reason for the characters to leave.
<Rang> yes, I just need to start diversifying city...but still doesn't have same sense of scope this way
<Anne_Marble> Sort of like Windhaven, where we got a sense of the world outside by meeting fliers (whatever he called them) from other continents.
<Anne_Marble> Maybe they can eat at an Elvish restaurant...
<Rang> or I can tie the wanderings more directly into character interactions and story plot...hmmm
<kewms> Where are the characters from? Were they born in the city, or did they come from elsewhere?
<kewms> Why and how?
<@Jim> R: Sounds like we've given you some ideas. <g>
<Rang> most were, but some key ones aren't, for use in developing political angles with factions outside city
<Rang> yes, Jim <g>
<Anne_Marble> <preen> <g>
<Rang> <g>
<kewms> *That's* where the scope of your world adds richness to story.
<Anne_Marble> What would an elvish restaurant be like? Would they serve vegetarian? Or game?
<@Jim> Ok... there are a couple of books that I recommend for all worldbuilders: Aliens and Alien Societies and _World-Building_ ... both are part of the Science Fiction Writing Series from Writers Digest Books, edited by Ben Bova. Good books with lots of great general information.
<Anne_Marble> I talked a lot about food in my fantasy novel, OK? (One of my secondary characters was a butcher, another was a baker. No candlestick maker, though.)
<Anne_Marble> I wish the Fantasy Writer's Ref. had been as detailed.
<Rang> no elves in my story...but if I ever met one, I promise to ask him for you, Anne
<Jehane> Food's a good way to experience the world
<kewms> Speaking of which, my dinner's about ready and you all are making me hungry. Gotta zoom.
<@Jim> And an elven restaurant would depend completely on your elves... their lifestyles may depend on their environment.
<Anne_Marble> Yes, I was strongly considering vampiric elves...
<@Jim> Bye K... lol Anne!
<Rang> and these lifestyle differences would add richness to the different societies
<Rang> vampiric ones would definitely have implications on the storyline
<@Jim> you would think so, anyway.
<@Jim> Well, any other worldbuilding questions?
<Rang> yes, economies
<Anne_Marble> Those "Medieval City" and "Medieval Village" books are good
<Anne_Marble> Should you write first and then worldbuild, or worldbuild and write? Or does that depend on the writer and/or book?
<@Jim> R: economies will depend on travel and accessibility. It makes sense that people will try to make a living, or money, and they may trade if feasible.
<Anne_Marble> OK, economies first.
<Rang> on the medieval level, how extensive a region do most economic powers influence in terms of neighbors? And does the concept of economic powers even work in a medieval setting?
<Jehane> Anne - depends, but worldbuilding first helps keep it consistent
<@Jim> A: I start out with a little writing to define my concepts, then plunge into WB... then write again.
<Rang> is the economic power strong enough for embargo to be a threat?
<Anne_Marble> Unfortunately you hear horror stories about writers who get caught up in worldbuilding and never finish.
<Sarah> I build to a point, start writing, and then tackle anything new or specifics when and if they come up. But that's me.
<Jehane> R - if they can only get some things by trade, then an embargo can be bad.
<@Jim> R: Even in medieval times you had people like Marco Polo, though he was more an explorer, and the silk road... people will find a way to market goods if they can make a living at it.
<Anne_Marble> That's good, because I need a way (in another story I'm planning) to give power to the peacemakers. and I was thinking of embargo.
<@Jim> A: You have to know when to say "enough" and get down to the writing. Holly's guidelines are good for that.
<Jehane> Villages are rarely self-sufficient. Countries can be, but often are not
<Anne_Marble> OK, I'm scrolling down Patricia Wrede's list of categories for more questions i might ask.
<@Jim> She probably has more answers than I do.
<Anne_Marble> Yikes, I think she's added some. Gulp.
<Rang> what can slave labor accomplish that would make it a threat to regional economic powers, enough so that they would use an embargo threat to force neighbors to ban slavery?
<Jehane> If a country's main export allows them to finance pretty much everything, then an embargo could wreck the country
<@Jim> That will be an interesting site to peruse. <g>
<Anne_Marble> I think this is why so many fantasy novels start out in villages and wander about for a while. Less worldbuilding that way.
<Rang> heh
<Jehane> Slavery allows for cheap labour, allowing for goods to be manufactured and sold cheaper than competitors
<@Jim> R: look at the history of Earth... no one objected to slavery very much until the US fought a war over it. Human rights are relatively recent, historically speaking.
<Anne_Marble> Medicine! Do you have healers? And if so, can everyone use them?
<Jehane> This is why so many things are made in China and Taiwan
<Rang> yes...but if those goods are cheap anyway, then they can't be the foundation on which an economic power was built on
<Rang> if the key is cheap goods, then an embargo of cheap goods wouldn't work
<Anne_Marble> It seems that in too many fantasy novels, eveyrbody just pops over to the healer when they get hurt, and no one is ever turned away. Better novels touch on the cost to the healer.
<Jehane> Depends if the country supplying the goods is self-sufficient
<@Jim> Economic powers interact with military and political powers... unless the economic powers are the military and political powers. Remember, if you have no army, some one will conquer you.
<Rang> good point
<Jehane> If they rely on the income from cheap goods, an embargo is bad.
<Sarah> And do all healers heal the same way? In my world it varies -- some heal from their own "energy", some use what the patient has, some get it from a third source, some use spells and potions...
<@Jim> good points, Sarah.
<Anne_Marble> Then again, sometimes wealthy people get bad health care. In the past, wealthy people went to fancy phsyicians who studied their urine and talked of humors.
<Jehane> Ands dosed them with mercury
<@Jim> The wealthy can always afford to pay, but they can make bad judgements about the healers, too.
<@Jim> Or the quacks who specialize in diseases of the rich.
<Jehane> Studying urine can be valid
<Anne_Marble> The best doctors at the time were field surgeons who learned (trial and error!) on the field of battle. Pare and the like.
<Anne_Marble> It can be if you know what to look for, but so little was known back then.
<@Jim> Ah, but if your world has magic, it can make a huge difference.
<@Jim> And that difference will depend, to a large degree, on where the magic comes from.
<Anne_Marble> Yes, but I'm not writing a book about urine magic.
<@Jim> And the price to be paid for using it.
<@Jim> LOL
<Rang> price is the key
<Rang> all magic must have a cost
<@Jim> Yes, if it's free, it's a flat story.
<Rang> not just monetary, but something more...that allows you to set limits and make the choices real and concrete
<Rang> not just waving a magic wand
<Jim Mills> I got disconnected... back now.
<Anne_Marble> What about criminal justice? One of my main characters is a sort of police officer in a city -- he founded the United Guard to keep order.
<Anon_17> peter
<Jehane> He catches the crooks - and then what?
<Jehane> Do they go to court? who judges their crimes?
<Jim Mills> That depends to a large degree on your world system, and the local system, Anne... is it a monarchy?
<Anne_Marble> It depends. If they're nobles, they get away with it.
<Jim Mills> Historically, Nobility tended to rule with an iron fist.
<Sarah> Do they have money and manpower to accomodate prisons, or do they to make it a Kill Them, Banish Them, or Let Them Go situation?
<Anne_Marble> The highest noble in the city is a duke. I don't have a king or anything. I guess they're a city-state.
<Rang> depends on where you want to go with the story, whether the criminal system works well/not/or sometimes in that world
<Jim Mills> They were seldom overruled... and when they were it was usually by rebellion.
<Anne_Marble> Depends on the crime. They used branding for some criminals, such as molesters. And molesters who used violence were executed.
<Anne_Marble> People who kill nobles don't have a chance, unless they themselves are noles.
<Jehane> Who makes the decision? THe Guard, the DUke?
<Rang> and what are the rules themselves? they can be interesting complications. What happens if your main character falls afoul of the rules? or what happens if someone important to him does?
<Jim Mills> And the rules can be bent if there is good reason on the part of the nobles.
<Anne_Marble> The nobles decide the things that pertain to themselves. The character who invented the guards is a bastard son of a noble, but he can't change those rules.
<Jim Mills> "We were going to hang you, but your family has paid your ransom."
<Rang> the key is to use worldbuilding to create a world that has complications for the character and the plot.
<Anne_Marble> I've read info about medieval punishments, but if you put a lot of that info into a book, you'd get nasty letters from readers who threw up. :-/
<Jehane> Leave it to the imagination. Let them hear thescreams
<Rang> you have to judge what the novel requires.
<Anne_Marble> Just the names are bad enough to make people shudder... Sawing to death, etc.
<Rang> In goodkind's first book, his publisher complained that there was too much violence...but when they went over the story, they found there was nothing they could take out...b/c the violence wasn't physical
<Rang> but mental helplessness in the torture scene
<Anne_Marble> And it didn't exactly hurt his success with readers.
<Jehane> drawn and quartered is pretty gruesome, but gets used all the time
<Anne_Marble> I decided I might make my villain an arsonist. Gee, I wonder how they'll punish him?
<Jim Mills> burn him at the stake? disembowelment is pretty bad...
<Jim Mills> Impalement is pretty bad.
<Sarah> S.L. Viehl's scenes in "Endurance" got pretty detailed, but rather than turning me off, I found they connected me deeper to the character.
<Jim Mills> Is that part of the Stardoc series?
<Anne_Marble> Unfortunately, at first, they get the wrong person. It's up to my heroine to save him -- and save them from themselves.
<Sarah> Yes, Jim. Book 3.
<Rang> pain and suffering are good tools...they magnify the torturer and the victim in the reader's minds...creates deep impressions for your characters
<Jim Mills> Ah... I only have the first two... have to get that one.
<Anne_Marble> I based that on an actual incident I read about, and that actually took place in the 1800s (in France). A young noble made some commoners angry. Later, an innocent noble was caught and tortured for hours in rsponse.
<Rang> but don't over do it...or your reader will stop feeling sympathy and feel pity and loathing for the constant victimhood
<Anne_Marble> The guy she saves is a jerk, so there's some irony there I ugess.
<Jim Mills> R: True. Readers don't want a lesson on how bad it really was in medieval times. They want a good story.
<Rang> orson scott card's book on characters and viewpoints gives some good examples of ways to magnify or diminish character perceptions in readers
<Anne_Marble> I think I'll make the killer a religious fanatic. Or has that been overdone?...
<Rang> it sounds a bit cliche
<Rang> but you might be able to find some interesting angle on it
<Jim Mills> A: depends on how you handle it... do you have a fresh new angle?
<Jim Mills> R: gmta
<Rang> gmta?
<Anne_Marble> The main character believes in the same religion, and seeing the fantatic makes him question his religion.
<Jim Mills> one of those net acronymns: great minds think alike.
<Rang> in that case, if you're able to create a balancing point of view, it might be ok.
<Rang> oh, heh
<Anne_Marble> I'll have to work on that, and lots of other things. LOTS of other things.
<Anne_Marble> But it beats having the characters dine on stew all the time and riding on horses for hours without rest.
<Rang> I had a character I wanted to be a religious fanatic, and a main character who was, decided to make him slightly religious so that I don't come off as pigeonholing religious ppl, then decided against the whole thing
<Rang> and relegated religion to the background
<Jim Mills> Good luck... and keep writing. I have to go spend some time with my wife. Hope the discussions have helped.
<Anne_Marble> Anyybody here read Diana Wynne Jones' book "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland"?
<Jim Mills> I haven't seen that one Anne... is it good?
<Rang> thanks for a great session, Jim
<Jim Mills> You're welcome.
<Rang> transcripts will be up, right, Jim?
<Jim Mills> Yes... they will.
<Rang> thx
<Anne_Marble> Yes, it is. It's about the cliches in fantasy.
<Jim Mills> Ah. I'll have to get a copy.
<Rang> ditto
<Rang> make sure to have that title in the transcript, Jim <g> too lazy to write it down now...heheh
<Jim Mills> Night everyone!
<Rang> Goodnight!
<Jehane> Bye JIm
<Jim Mills> it'll be there...
<Sarah> Anne> Pollinating horses...
<Sarah> Night!
<Anne_Marble> Ah, yes, you've read it. Horses are like bicycles.
<Rang> but if religion is central to your story, then it ought to be there, Anne
<Paul> I'm just starting a novel and started the world build so i thought this would be a good idea to come to this even if it means staying up half the night
<Dallon> no, I use netzero that half as slow as my 'puter
<Jim Mills> We usually don't run much over an hour, Paul...
<Jim Mills> Or are you in Europe?
<Paul> I'm in England
<Jim Mills> Ah. Sorry it's so late for you. Doug tried running some afternoon sessions, but they weren't well attended.
<Dallon> It's rough for a 5 hour difference - sorry paul
<Paul> its okay I don't mind too much it is only like 1 am
<Paul> I was up for the romance novel one till 4 am
<Dallon> Spoken like a true Britain!
<Paul> ran well over time and it didn't get finished either
<Jim Mills> Well, let's get going. When Doug runs these sessions, he usually has a formal presentation, but I don't have any such, so we'll jusd do some Q&A. Do you have any worldbuilding questions?
<Paul> lol do i have questions!
<Jim Mills> Please ask.
<Paul> well my main stuff is on calendars and making a believable system of calculating time but still having enough normality so as to let the reader know what is happening
<Dallon> Good question I've toiled that myself
<Dallon> BTW outside this room, y'all know me as toesy - I'm in disguise!
<Paul> I want to base my story in a world similar to earth so the time system has to be sophisticated but also believable
<Paul> hi toesy
<Jim Mills> Ok. You have choices. You can make your world's rotation a different number of hours, the revolution around a sun (or suns) a different number of days, etc. The people will usually call them by different names, and the key thing is you have to be consistent.
<Dallon> Are you comfortable with : hours, minutes etc.. or do you want something different
<Jim Mills> If it's similar to Earth, does it have 365 days a year and 366 every forth year?
<Dallon> I do, but I want to be easy to understand
<Jim Mills> (fourth)
<Paul> yes that is good, I'd like a whole new names etc, longer year and different system of calendar, i wondered if making up a celestial year would be overkill, planning which stars would be where and so on
<Jim Mills> My latest world has a different rotation and revolution than Earth, a different axial tilt that results in mild seasons, a different length to each day and fewer days per year. Years are marked mostly by the rainy seasons.
<Dallon> well I have to go, the wife needs the phone. sorry mates
<Paul> I heard JUne uses a book of star charts to plan this sort of thing
<Jim Mills> You can get that detailed if you want, but are the star locations going to figure into your story? If so, then do the work. If not, you can get by with less.
<Jim Mills> You may want to know how many days per year, how many days per season, how the locals divide up weeks, months, what names they call each, etc.
<Paul> I have no idea at the moment, Ilike detail though but I don't want to work on this for months and get nbo story down. I think my best bet would be to get a basic system and add to it if the need arises
<Jim Mills> That's good. Many writers do just that. Also, time of day (or night) will probably figure into your story at some point. Old civilizations measured time in things like candlemarks, bells, waterclocks, sundials, etc.
<Paul> yes i was thinking of basing the names of the increments of time on old meanings, for example the equivvalent of an hour could be a derivitive from the word a old civilization used to mean a certain mark on a candle or such
<Jim Mills> That works well for many fantasy writers. Have you read Holly's articles on Worldbuilding? You can find them on site at http://hollylisle.com/fm/articles/
<Jim Mills> She has one specifically on Worldbuilding that may answer some of your questions: http://hollylisle.com/fm/articles/faqs8.html
<Paul> I read a bit of them, I read the amp building one but decided against following it. I have a more detailed map being drawn but I'm a little pedantic when it comes to maps and worlds seeing as i'm a geographer ^_^
<Jim Mills> That's fine, too. You can skip the map part and do that part your way. She does, however, talk about time, including months, weeks, etc. I think it's in the article titled "Worldbuilding -- Rollicking Rules of Ecosystems."
<Paul> great I'll have a look
<Paul> I also want to include other languages in a minor role but I have no idea where to start with these
<Jim Mills> There's more to worldbuilding than drawing a map. You have to define any extraordinary critters in your world, how they work, etc. The same goes for magic and any other extraordinary forces or occurrances.
<Paul> Yeah, I have a whole magic system and religion based around it planned, haven't come to the animals yet though
<Jim Mills> I took the simple route with languages and have four common 'tongues' based on area of origin.
<Jim Mills> Within those areas, there are various dialects... you may choose to involve language or not, depending on the needs of your story.
<Paul> doyou actually have examples of the language like Tolkien has examples of Elvish, or do you just infer that the language is different?
<Jim Mills> I usually just infer that the language is different, but I may inject some phrases here and there. I've patterned my eastern language to be oriental, the western to be english, north in Swedish, and south is going to be either Africans or Spanish (not sure yet).
<Jim Mills> I've only just started writing this book, so I'm not sure which way I'll go on Southron yet. (yes, it's spelled Southron.)
<Jim Mills> I have a book of names in various languages, so I can draw on that. And I have a few linguistic dictionaries, too.
<Paul> great do you just think up names like that or do you uses a certain process i just tend to make them up examples from my WIP are Ellandria, Besthald, Cathdar and Rethan (the last being a city and not a country)
<Paul> that is a good idea I could pull out my old french dictionaries and so on and base somethingaround them
<Jim Mills> That's fine, too. I just made the names based on the cardinal points, but they could just as easily be called Koton, Parsan, etc. Those are two city-states in my world.
<Paul> I thinkI am okay on the climate and physical aspects mostly, I know a lot about climatological systems, plate tectonics, and so on. Studied them all in detail, and going on to do more this year too. Just sketchy on a few vague points and seem to over do things a bit
<Jim Mills> Some detail is good, but don't get mired down in the nitpicking. You may not -- probably won't -- use in your story the amount of detail you put into your worldbuilding, but it'll show in the story if you're consistent about the details.
<Paul> yes i've been told that you only need to give as much info as the reader needs to understand the plot, any more is not neccessary
<Jim Mills> That's true, but you do need ~some~. Remember what Holly once told me, and that agents and editors have told her -- no one but you cares about your worldbuilding. The reader cares about your story's action. And characters. The rest is the extra that lends to the believability.
<Paul> yes I understand that, it just seems so fun sometimes but i know i need to focus on the end relult and that is a novel or series.
<Jim Mills> Yes. Consistency is important when you ~do~ mention these details, but you can have inconsistencies as long as they make sense. For instance, you can measure hours in candlemarks in one city and bells in another, but don't mix them up.
<Jim Mills> A character could comment to another, "They toll the bells for each candlemark over in this city." Or something like that.
<Paul> well i'm doing everything for my world build in longhand and sticking it on my wall, that way I have it all for reference when I need it.
<Jim Mills> lol. I put mine in a notebook. You have to strike a balance. The story takes precedence, but you need the added color of your world -- just enough to keep the readers' interest.
<Jim Mills> You have to make them believe that your world is real -- not all at once, but over the course of your story.
<Paul> yeah, I'm not sure if there are any other questions i need to ask, hmm
<Paul> history of the world is going to play a major part in the story i am writing, a post apocalyptic world evolved back from the destruction of before, all the technology based upon remembered ideas and archaeology, how would I go about planning this?
<Paul> I was thinking of a time line on my wall but major incidents in the past would need further plans
<Jim Mills> There's a file you can download that may help... http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip
<Jim Mills> It's a set of files for worldbuilding and character defining based on Holly's guidelines. The files are in Microsoft Word .doc format and Windows .rtf (rich text format).
<Paul> sorry I may seem a total computer illiterate but how do I download that?
<Jim Mills> Cut and paste the link ( http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip ) into your browser (highlight it by dragging your mouse over it, then press Ctrl+C to copy). You'll be asked if you want to save to disk.
<Jim Mills> Or I could email it to you.
<Jim Mills> When I post this transcript, the link will be clickable.
<Paul> okay that is great I think I got it
<Jim Mills> Cool... good luck with your worldbuilding and writing your story. If you think up more questions, I'm usually here every week... tho I'll be gone Sept. 30th.
<Jim Mills> Or you can post questions on the World Building board.
<Paul> Thats excellent thanks its been nice talking to you
<Jim Mills> Glad I could help. See you later!
<Paul> bye
Transcript: Developing Mythology Class Chat 09-29-2001
September 29 2001, 10:20 PM
<James> Hi Jim
<Jim> Hello!
<James> A question you must be tired of - have you heard from Lynn?
<Jim> How are you this evening? (Well, it's evening here).
<Jim> No, I have heard nothing from Lynn... and no one else has asked me that.
<James> I'm very well, thanks. It's mid morning here, a very nice, just right summer day.
<Jim> Springtime in Australia?
<Jim> it's cool in the fall here.
<James> Well, we've hit the point in North Queensland where it feels like Summer The Mango Winds are blowing...
<Jim> ah. the differences in locations... never heard of the Mango winds.
<Jim> Hello, Jehane! How do you pronounce that? :-}
<James> Probably purely local - winds that always blow at this time of year just as the Mango trees are blossoming. Very bad hay fever weather
<James> Hi Jehane
<Jehane> Hi Jim, James
<Jehane> Don't actually know how to pronounce it - it's a character from a book.
<Jim> lol
<Jim> which book?
<Jehane> The LIons of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay
<Jim> Hmmm...
<Jim> Hello, Anon_8! :-}
<Jim> Bye, Anon_8...
<Jehane> Sorry, that was me trying to open a new window!
<Jim> ah...
<Jim> Well, what shall we talk about tonight?
<Jim> That's interesting...
<Jehane> Is this worldbuilding, or mythological systems?
<Jim> Have either of you read Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny?
<Jim> This is Mythological systems...
<Jehane> No
<Jehane> Ah...thank you. I've got my days confused, but that's ok. I wanted to do this class anyway.
<Jim> Lord of Light is SF bordering on fantasy with people on a world that has been populated by a colony ship where some of the colonists developed psi powers and technology to enhance those powers.
<Jim> They took on the identities of the Hindu gods and ruled the world from a city in the mountains... named Heaven.
<Jim> Among other things, the 'worthy' were allowed to be reincarnated into new, younger bodies...
<Jim> And they ruthelessly suppressed all 'reinvented' technology.
<Jim> It's a very interesting book...
<Anon_58> Mumble grumble server threw me off and I couldn't get back on.
<Jim> Sorry... when that happens to me, I post my name as Jim 2 or something...
<Jim> Looks like you can be James again now, though...
<James2> Didn't let me do james again, but James2 was okay. Thanks for that.
<Jim> yw.
<Jehane> So they were godlike in their powers, even if they started out as humans?
<Jehane> We're talking about Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny, James
<Jim> Yes, they were. Each had his or her specialty... Mahasamatman, who prefered to drop the maha and the atman and call himself Sam, could wield energy and had a belt full of technology that let him throw lightning.
<James2> Heavens, haven't read that in the longest time.
<Jim> The native species on the planet were energy beings called demons... or Raksasha...
<Jim> Of course, Sam could control energy and the demons had great respect for the "Binder"
<Jim> What did you think of it, James? I thought it worth mentioning as it exemplifies the use of Gods and myth structures in Fantasy/SF.
<Jehane> Did the people not know that their gods were human? Weren't there any legends or songs about the colonists?
<James2> Well, I really, really mean I haven't read it since I was a teenager, almost twenty years ago. I remember practically nothing about it, and always swear I'm going to re-read it every time someone mentions it. He ended up making a series of it, didn't he?
<Jim> If there were, they didn't figure into the story... the gods had more-than-human abilities. Agni, god of fire, had a wand that threw plasma so strong that he could score the moon. Shiva had a trident of destruction (disintegration).
<Jim> a series? did he? I'll have to check that out... not that I had heard.
<Jehane> Will have to add it to my to-read list
<James2> I wonder if I'm confusing it with another of his series - hold on, I'm peeking at amazon...
<James2> Nope - sorry to get your hopes up - I imagined the whole thing
<Jim> gmta... I was doing the same thing. <g>
<James2> Definitely time to re-read my Zelaznys
<James2> I do wonder if Stargate SG-1 hasn't sounded the death knell of real gods represented in SF, though, by becoming the thing to which all such stories will inevitably be compared and considered derivative.
<Jim> lol - I think I have all the Amber series... but not the second quintology
<Jim> :;shrug:: don't know... I think if you can find a new twist, there will always be readers who will show interest and appreciation.
<James2> And I say this as someone whose WIP includes aliens acting as human gods (sort of).
<Jehane> Yes, I was thinking that the book had a lot in common with SG, although no one could accuse Zelazny of plagiarism!
<Jim> so does mine, James, except they aren't aliens... they're humans who've developed incredible power.
<James2> Heavens no - almost certainly Hollywood just plundered the general notion from existing SF.
<Jim> Jehane: Especially since the book came out about 30 years ago!
<James2> Well, I think you're right, Jim, or hope so - it's how you take the concept and twist. In mine, I deliberately took what Stargate does and turned it on its head, then embroidered liberally
<Jim> That sounds interesting.
<James2> I hope so!
<Jim> Jehane, what are you working on?
<Jehane> I'm trying to work out why the princess left home, whether she ran away or was banished.
<Jehane> It's a fantasy, although I haven't decided whether there will be much magic
<James2> Is there a particular problem preventing you from deciding that we could help you with?
<James2> (Always ready to brainstorm, me.)
<Jehane> Well, basically I need her to have an affair with someone her father doesn't approve of, have a baby and then either die or leave the scene altogether.
<James2> Ouch, you're a cruel writer
<Jim> you want the heroine to die?
<James2> There's always death in childbirth...
<Jehane> Yes! BUt this is just backstory, the heroine is her granddaughter
<James2> Or is the issue how she meets the man her father doesn't approve of?
<Jehane> The issue is how she leaves the palace; whether she is exiled or escapes.
<James2> If exiled, would it be because of her illicit relationship?
<Jehane> She's the king's only child, so I don't know that he would exile her.
<James2> How unsuitable is the man she loves? Why doesn't the king approve?
<Jehane> Well, bloodlines are very important in this land, and this man is an orphan, whereas the man her father wants her to marry is the son of his strongest lord.
<James2> I must admit, it sounds as if you're right that he wouldn't exile her, then, as it would endanger the bloodline he wants to protect, and risks setting up a legitimate bloodline outside his kingdom.
<James2> If it comes down to escape, you could read up on Mary Queen of Scots, who pulled off a couple of spectacular escapes, as I recall (or possibly one actual escape and one planned - wretched vague memory).
<Jehane> will do, although the method of escape probably isn't so important.
<James2> Mary makes good reading anyway - amazing woman, even if you read the biographies by people who didn't like her.
<Jehane> Now I've got to work out what happens to the kingdom in the meantime. There's the king, but the next one to take the throne will be his great-granddaughter.
<Jehane> So does the king live all that time, or does he die and the kingdom is torn apart by the warlords fighting for the throne?
<Jehane> I favour tearing the kingdom apart at this stage, because it would help my ending.
<James2> Do you have a range of warlords who'd be fascinating enough to carry the novel?
<Jehane> Well, haven't actually created the warlords yet, except for one, who will bring the heroine up as his own.
<Jehane> He's just a minor player in the political arena.
<James2> I ask, because competing warlords are cliche-ish, and would need something extra to make them new.
<Jehane> Yes, so I'm not sure whether there will be one who can take the throne, or whether they will continue to fight, constantly shifting alliances.
<Jehane> But if the king dies, someone's got to rule.
<James2> You could go with a third group powerful enough to temporarily squash opposition (a group of cranky wizard-types, say, who simply declare that there will be no war, and anyone who tries it can consider themselves a frog).
<James2> Or something of that ilk.
<James2> Union of warlords. Witches. Priests or the gods themselves.
<Jehane> That's good - I hadn't thought of that. There are the priestesses, who are most powerful, they could declare themselves regents
<James2> Then you'd have the fun of secular opposition to the rule of the priestesses. Maybe the merchants think they should be in charge. The warlords definitely think they should be. Cabals form and betray each other. Lovely chaos everywhere...
<Jehane> Of course, the church and the state are completely separate entities, and have never overtly interfered before, but that's another source of conflict.
<Jehane> lol...chaos is good.
<James2> You could even get a nice Cold War going. Nearby kingdom ruled by the priestesses' Church, which has ambitions - people see what happens in your kingdom as the first domino in a chain giving too much power to the church, so outsiders try to undermine the priestesses.
<Jim> Why are the church and state completely separate entities?
<Jehane> James - yes, because the church covers more than one country
<Jehane> JIm - because the state is strictly patriarchal, while the church is strictly matriarchal.
<James2> So you'd have gender role conflict as well - everyone knows that women aren't meant to rule, so the priestesses have to go.
<Jehane> Also, the church is more egalitarian, anyone may enter the service of the goddess, and may rise to the highest office regardless of background
<Jehane> Definitely gender role conflict.
<James> Also, if the priestesses rule, they'd possibly have a role in educating the granddaughter - there are people who would oppose that as too much influence over the next heir.
<Jehane> Actually, the priestesses are going to put forward their own choice of heir - some orphan boy they've groomed to be the rumoured great-grandson
<Jehane> He fully believes he is, since the poor boy doesn't know any better.
<James> Ah - so they'd be acting to exclude the granddaughter from certain kinds of education, certain kinds of influence, maybe doing their best to ensure she doesn't acquire the skill to rule.
<James> Do they have the equivalent of nunneries that they could banish her to?
<Jehane> No, they don't realise who she is, which is one reason they've chosen this other kid.
<James> Do they know she exists at all?
<Jim> They didn't choose the boy out of a need for a male ruler?
<Jehane> THey only know that she is a nobleman's daughter.
<James> How will you bring her back into the political arena?
<Jehane> They chose a boy because there is a rumour that the royal line hadn't died with the king and his daughter, and everyone assumes it's a boy
<Jim> It's been my observation that people will seize power if they can take it and hold it -- regardless of gender or customs.
<Jehane> Yes, the priestesses are just as greedy for power as the rest of them, so they've manufactured this heir.
<James> If they were happy to flout custom to hold onto power, might they not groom a female child who could become a priestess and guarantee a second generation of priestess power - with one of their own legitimately on the throne?
<Jim> That's one of the benefits of matriarchies -- there may be argument as to who the father is, but you know for sure who the mother is.
<Jehane> They're prepared to push custom, but not outright flout it. They can say they act as regents for the throne, so long as they don't overtly say they're going to rule
<James> Do the priestesses know the boy isn't legit? Or do they have some reason to believe that he might be the rightful heir?
<Jehane> Anyway, their choice has to be male for the romantic subplot.
<James> Ah - you should have mentioned: the romantic subplot trumps everything
<Jehane> They know the boy's not legit, but they want to be the power behind the throne. Besides, they started the rumour in the first place and don't really believe that an heir still exists.
<James> When/How does the granddaughter find out it should be her?
<Jehane> Not till near the end, and I don't actually know how she's going to find out, or how she's going to prove it to everyone else.
<Jehane> I might have to invoke some magic there.
<Jim> Jehane - are you in the breakout novel course?
<Jehane> No - I can't do the time commitment.
<Jim> One of the things Holly has said, emphatically, is that you need to know where you're going. You need to have the plot worked out before you start writing.
<Jehane> Yes, I'm still working on the backstory, and only have the barest skeletoins of the plot.
<Jim> Do you have the Maass book? I highly recommend it.
<Jehane> No, can I get it on amazon?
<Jehane> and will they ship overseas?
<James> The backstory often (for me) starts generating plot, as I create something and suddenly see exactly how it would work wonderfully in a scene or situation.
<Jim> Yes, you can...
<Jim> I'm sure they will...
<James> Jehane, I'm in Australia, and I got a copy of the Maas book from Amazon.com with no problem (other than the horrendous shipping cost, but it was worth it).
<Jehane> Whereabouts in Oz? I'm in Darwin
<James> Townsville.
<Jehane> Cool (or hot!) not so far then
<James> Practically around the corner
<Jehane> In Australian terms.
<Jehane> Only what, two days drive?
<James> As a nation we can be very smug about distance I sometimes wonder how the UK managed to have so much history in such a little place.
<Jim> They're all squeezed together?
<Jehane> They made their history outside of their country.
<James> Could be a worldbuilding challenge - create a very large country at a medieval or earlier tech level, and make a workable, cohesive nation out of it, despite the obvious obstacles.
<Jim> Japan is even more tightly squeezed together.
<James> I guess, ultimately, history records the conflicts. They don't have to be on a very large stage, so long as they're numerous and important to the people involved.
<Jehane> They'd have to have peaceful neighbours, although an island might be ok
<Jehane> But even with our level of technology we can't monitor our borders
<Jehane> Tokyo has more people than the entire Australian continent
<James> There are lots of scary stats like that - I seem to recall that Indonesians standing army is greater than our entire population (though that could be apocryphal).
<James> oops - Indonesia's
<James> Coming back from checking - seems to be a load of rubbish, unless the larger figure is considering reserves + standing army.
<Jehane> So...what shall we talk about next?
<Jehane> What are you guys working on?
<James> I've been preparing a novel I can start for the Dare on Monday - Wormworld.
<Jim> Battle Dragon ... I just posted chapter one on the fantasy/sf board.
<Jehane> Great - what are they about?
<Jim> The MC is a dragon locked into human form who must retrieve a god-killing weapon that was stolen on her watch.
<James> Um - sort of a religious thriller, a'la Morris West, with the fate of a world at stake. In theory (I'd be very optimistic to think it's going to be as good as Morris West, he's just been at the back of my mind as I planned things).
<James> Most of my planned scenes involving deep philosophical discussion about the nature of faith will probably devolve into violent shoot-outs under my hands
<Jehane> Nothing wrong with violent shootouts.
<Jim> deep philisophical discussions make for a boring story. imho.
<James> That's true. Deep philosophical dialogue could probably use more of them...
<James> Perhaps I should issue this promise, if one of my characters so much as mention's the meaning of life, everyone else in the room with him will draw a gun
<Jehane> Then he can find out the meaning of death!
<James> lol!
<Jim> "The meaning of life is..." BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG!!!
<James> I may choose that as my ending...
<Jehane> lol
<Jim> Religious thriller comedy.
<James> I have enjoyed this very much - but I have to make a run for it and have lunch (it's worth observing that I've left three chats to have a meal in the last 24 hours, so I'm either chatting too much or eating too much).
<James> Shall we meet up here again next week, see if anyone shows?
<Jehane> I'm not actually in this class, and I have to work next week, so I won't be here, but it was a good chat, and thanks for the tips!
<James> No worries.
<Jehane> Time for lunch for me as well.
<Jehane> Bye people!
<James> See you Jehane, bye Jim.
<Jim> Bye!
robertsloan2:
Cool! So this is the great white chatroom. Looks like the other one but it's white not yellow.
robertsloan2:
Are you transcribing?
JimMills:
There's a way to change it, but I'm not sure how.
robertsloan2:
The white's cool. No reason to change it.
JimMills:
I will save it, yes. But it might be a good idea to back me up in case of disconnects, etc.
JimMills:
Hi, Bob! How are you feeling?
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Pretty awful, I've had some very nasty complications. If I suddenly vanish you'll know
JimMills:
k - well, we're doing the intro and 'why worldbuild?' tonight - astromechanics is next week, if you want to go.
BlairB:
good place to start for me...
robertsloan2:
I'm backing up everything, Jim. In my usual way copying and pasting into a Notepad file.
JimMills:
That's what I do, too...
Deedlit:
hello
JimMills:
Ok, we have a crowd, so let's get started...
kiarlie:
hey
JimMills:
Welcome to World Building 101. This course is a series of classes, to be presented over a number of weeks and covering a variety of topics related to world building in general.
writingbear:
By the way...hello
JimMills:
Normally we will meet each Sunday for these classes, but there will be some exceptions due to real life commitments on my part. These will be noted on the calendar.
JimMills:
The first exception is Oct. 28th. There will be no world building class that day. The calendar reflects this.
JimMills:
I plan to follow a format where I present a brief lecture on the topic of the day, mostly garnered from my readings on the topic(s) and my own personal experiences as a writer.
JimMills:
After the lecture, we'll go to questions and answers. Please hold questions for the end. If this works for all of you, great.
JimMills:
If not, I'm open to suggestions for ways to improve my presentations.
JimMills:
I'm cutting-and-pasting text I typed up earlier today, so hopefully this won't take too long. Let's get started.
JimMills:
Class 1: Why world build? The answer is to give your readers a sense of wonder, a suspension of disbelief, and to keep them reading (and buying) your work, preferably story after story ad infinitum.
JimMills:
You want to develop a sense of wonder in your world, which applies to fantasy, science fiction, other genre and even mainstream -- world building applies to all writing.
JimMills:
In fantasy and science fiction, you want a sense of otherworldliness that will make your reader say, "Cool - I wish I could see that!"
JimMills:
In other genre or mainstream, you want your setting to support your story. You may draw on a place you know well, or you may make it up.
JimMills:
Either way, you want to give your readers something other than their own back yards in the way of setting.
JimMills:
Readers read to escape their worlds, even if the story is set somewhere not too far away. It's still not their backyard.
JimMills:
Or, if it ~is~ their backyard, you had better get the facts straight. I have a story that is, in part, set in San Francisco.
JimMills:
One critiquer here on Holly's site pointed out a flaw in my story based on setting. I corrected it, so it will be right when it sees print.
JimMills:
But had I not caught it, and readers hollered "That's wrong!" after it was printed, well... that's what world building is for (and critiques as well.).
JimMills:
So how do you go about it? First, you have to ask a few questions and make some very basic decisions.
JimMills:
These apply whether you're writing fantasy, science fiction, any other genre or mainstream.
JimMills:
They apply a little less if your story is set on Earth -- you don't find too many, if any, mainstream novels set on other worlds.
JimMills:
So the first question is: is your story set on Earth? Or is it set on an identical-to-Earth world?
JimMills:
If so, then you have simplified your world building a lot, at least as far as gravity, number of moons, how tides work, etc.
JimMills:
But if you set your story in London or New York City, you had better get the details right, or have a good explanation for why they're different, or your readers will shoot you down.
JimMills:
And, if your story is on Earth, you don't want to have to explain too many differences. What explanations you ~do~ give had better be in story context and not a lecture.
JimMills:
Many writers on Holly's boards are fantasy and/or science fiction writers, so we'll dwell on that for a bit.
JimMills:
World Building has to be in background. Few people will buy your book to read a treatise on how to build a better world.
JimMills:
As Holly commented to me once, citing her editors' comments to her: your readers don't care about your story's worldbuilding; they care about your story's action.
JimMills:
But you need to work out some of the details in order to have a sense of believability in your world. You want your reader to believe that your world might really exist.
JimMills:
This is true whether your story spans a globe, a continent, a country, a province, a city, a town, a block, or just a single room.
JimMills:
Skillfully done -- as background, not lecture -- world building imbues a sense of reality that carries your reader along and elicits a willing suspension of disbelief.
JimMills:
Readers expect research in a historical novel. They don't expect Rameses the second to meet queen Elizabeth, or Moses to be concerned about nuclear proliferation.
JimMills:
In Fantasy and SF, readers expect not to have to deal with world-blasting lasers if the level of civilization is more or less present day. You have to have consistency in your world building.
JimMills:
Fantasy often deals with medieval settings and if this is the case in your work, the reader will be thrown out of the story if bad guy draws sword and good guy shoots him with a pistol.
JimMills:
But what if that's important to your story? If so, then you need to establish early that firearms exist as well as more traditional medieval weapons.
JimMills:
Then it's okay for our hero, Indi, to shoot the guy with the sword. See what I mean? (Raiders of the Lost Ark isn't a medieval story, but the idea is the same.).
JimMills:
I could cite other examples, but it all comes back to the sense of wonder and the suspension of disbelief. That has to be an integral part of your story if you want to hold your readers.
JimMills:
Don't bore your reader with big expository lumps. Research what you need to make your story sound believable, and keep it mostly in the background.
JimMills:
Let your characters communicate your world to the reader by acting it out as they move through your story. Your story ~must~ come first.
JimMills:
Be consistent. Use a few vivid details in your descriptions rather than a lot of generalities. A well thought out world generates such details automatically. But be consistent.
JimMills:
Fantasy and SF in particular deal with other worlds that are sometimes different from Earth. This is good, if you do it right and avoid the many pitfalls of storytelling.
JimMills:
One story that I can recall critiquing on this site (I don't remember who wrote it) dealt with people on a very arid world where water was a precious commodity. The environment deeply affected the story.
JimMills:
In this course, we'll talk about worlds in general -- how they compare to Earth and Earth-like environments in general.
JimMills:
In future classes, we'll discuss the sizes and heat outputs of stars, distance of planets from their suns, gravity, moons, tides, magnetic fields and magnetospheres, lengths of years and days and more.
JimMills:
Don't panic.
JimMills:
This isn't a physics class. I'm not here to teach you astromechanics. But if you want to keep a certain level of wonder and believability, you may need a little of this for your stories.
JimMills:
But we'll keep it minimal. Just enough to give you some background for your story. For those who want more hard science, we'll let you talk to Bob and crunch numbers to your heart's content.
JimMills:
For me, I'll do the minimum necessary to get the story told. I can put things like orbital distances, rotations, solar output and so on into a spreadsheet and play with the numbers if I feel like it.
JimMills:
That sort of thing is coming up next class. In future classes we'll cover other topics like maps, inhabitants, cultures, measurement of time, languages, levels of technology, characters and putting it all together.
JimMills:
I told you the lecture would be short. Now let's go to questions... anyone?
Deedlit:
you've already come up with an awful lot I wouldn't have even considered. How little worldbuilding do you think you can get away with?
JimMills:
That depends entirely on your story and how much it needs.
Deedlit:
for instance, I normally look more at culture than flora and fauna.. but that's bad, right?
toesy:
A typical fantasy story, won't be dealing with much of that
robertsloan2:
Deedlit, I do a lot of fantasy too and it's amazing what a tall tree or a blue bird or something can be considered accurate and still nothing like a bluejay or an oak. Especially if locals name it.
JimMills:
D: No, not at all. A touch of flora and fauna is fine... but what do readers care about in a story? People. People make the culture.
JimMills:
And it depends on what your story is all about. If it's about the birds and the bees, then you need to deal more with flora and fauna. But if it's about people and their culture, then you're right on.
Deedlit:
but, for instance, if your characters are travelling a lot, you need detail on the surroundings more than culture - is that true?
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Can I dissent slightly? I've useinteractions with F&F to develop characters.
robertsloan2:
I think that gets filtered by who they are and what they notice. "Oh the cows in this country are funny looking black and white things, meaty though" a farmer might think having never seen one of that breed. And not notice the trees are different.
JimMills:
How much of your story is travel and how much is interacting with other people? The other people make the culture. You should mention some flora/fauna, by all means, but don't overdo it.
writingbear:
I think you need to know what they see when they go from point a to point b unless it takes days to get from one to the other
writingbear:
...then maybe a little more detail
JimMills:
A few vivid details here and there to lend a sense of reality to your story is great, but readers don't want to read a travel monologue about the 645 varieties of tree you can catalog.
Deedlit:
ok
toesy:
Even if it takes day, you can describe scenery
BlairB:
So if it's something major (like a huge, crystal clear lake) then it should be mentioned, but we don't care that the fields of purple flowers only grow 3 petals?
Deedlit:
<lol>
writingbear:
sounds good to me
JimMills:
Unless those facts bear directly on the story.
robertsloan2:
Blair, it might matter if trillium was on the heraldry of an enemy knight and someone clever recognized that's where he was born.
BlairB:
gotcha
toesy:
unless that flower is the Universal Antidote!
JimMills:
There's no reason why you can't bury a significant fact or two in the scenic descriptions.
robertsloan2:
Which they realized only after they tramped a month away from the source! That sets the three petal purple flowers as a clue for Intelligent Reader.
JimMills:
There are many variations possible.
JimMills:
In my latest WIP, I've set the story on the Earth of 165 million years ago, or a world just like it. Now I have to find ways to show the reader rather than tell him that that's the case. It's challenging.
JimMills:
All the animals are precursors of amphibians, fish and reptiles... but I can't say that. I have to show it.
Deedlit:
is that when dino's were around?
robertsloan2:
Oooh that I'd like to read. I think you've set it far enough back that was before flowering plants. The significant omission of flowers in the landscape might cue me.
JimMills:
The humans are the only mammals on the planet...
JimMills:
That would be one clue... chapter 1 is posted on the F&SF Board.
JimMills:
Look for Battle Dragon.
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Shades of "Technicolor Time Machine"
Deedlit:
Jim, I think that hardest thing I ever had to show was that a world did not have a moon.
robertsloan2:
I'll have to read and critique it. Dad was a paleontologist, I got that stuff in the cradle.
JimMills:
D: Yes, but the earlier dinos.
robertsloan2:
You had fish and reptiles then certainly along with archosauria and perhaps early birds.
robertsloan2:
Have to check dates on the earlier birds.
JimMills:
I can understand that, Clare. What reason would the inhabitants have to say anything about lack of a moon? You have a hard job to communicate that to the reader.
JimMills:
I think the birds came much later. I do have to do some more research.
Deedlit:
you can say that again, Jim! My creative writing group kept asking why it was so dark at night if there was a moon!
Deedlit:
I just had references to star lit skies etc..
JimMills:
How did you eventually tell the reader?
robertsloan2:
No tides either. No lunar cycle. No word month.
JimMills:
They could still have months, but they might call them something else. Deciyears, maybe.
robertsloan2:
Right, I just said no word "month" not that there wouldn't be a convenient time division.
Deedlit:
there was a character who remembered when there was a moon. I used him to communicate it once and for all to the reader.
robertsloan2:
No Mondays either. (Wow, think of that...)
Deedlit:
robert - it wasn't as simple as that. it was a magical/god thing. the moon was a god who was killed.
JimMills:
Ahhh... one possibility I thought of was to have the MC's visit an astronomer...
robertsloan2:
Ooooh cool, makes me want to read it.
BlairB:
or to see a painting with a moon in it
JimMills:
He could comment that some worlds have world-companions or something like that.
Deedlit:
in the story I'm currently working on (allegedly) the moon comes back.
BlairB:
"Hey! What is THAT think in the night sky?"
BlairB:
think = thing
JimMills:
That could be interesting... I'm thinking earthquakes...
Deedlit:
precisely, blair.
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
No flora or fauna with monthly cycles of any kind. Weird calendar.
JimMills:
Or in the day sky for that matter... it might cause widespread panic.
robertsloan2:
Could hang on the woman cycle and be called that.
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Earthquakes? Planetbuster more like.
JimMills:
Well, since there are gods involved... maybe they don't want to lose all their worshippers.
robertsloan2:
Right, whichever deity is responsible for earthquakes would probably mute them - but might still have some.
JimMills:
Imagine the end of the world stories that would be lending to the general panic.
JimMills:
"It's going to crash into us and kill us all!"
robertsloan2:
"It's the ghost of the sun!"
JimMills:
That could be especially true if the moon starts out at a distance and gets closer and closer.
BlairB:
The sun is burning out!
JimMills:
And imagine a solar eclipse!
Deedlit:
or from the point of view of the elves - it's evil! it's a trick of aphra come to kill us!!! sorry.
robertsloan2:
Jim - point for yours, the Moon actually was closer during the Cretaceous, visibly a lot huger.
kiarlie:
<lol> poor misguided elves!
JimMills:
And the Earth spun faster, too... so shorter days.
robertsloan2:
Right. Which withoutwatches humans wouldn't notice but with them would be scary.
JimMills:
I've done a lot of reasearch on Pangaea for this book... and I've worked on maps.
toesy:
Not everything done by magic, or deities have to be scientifically provable or even probable - this post will boot me now.
JimMills:
Ahhh... but they have means of telling time... and the first humans on Arra came from Earth... <g>
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
And the moon's destined to end up in a Trojan lock. Aldiss - "Hothouse"
robertsloan2:
Oooh Cool. I've got a link to a museum site with a dinosaur lineup by age that I'll give you.
JimMills:
And they find they can manipulate energy on Arra by sheer power of will... magic.
robertsloan2:
Astropolis did you just say the moon god was wearing a trojan?
JimMills:
Maybe you should define a trojan lock, Bob.
JimMills:
I would think it's something to do with settling into a stable orbit?
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
No, Earth's moon can eventually end in a "Trojan Lock", sharing Earth's orbit either 60deg in front or 60 deg behind.
JimMills:
Ahhh... I see.
robertsloan2:
Oooh neat. That's cool to know, Bob.
JimMills:
So the moon is in a fixed position, though the Earth still turns.
JimMills:
That should do interesting things to tides.
Deedlit:
If I drop out, it's because I am trying to stop my isp kicking me out.
toesy:
I think someone has another question....
JimMills:
Ask question, please...
toesy:
Deedlit....
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
JM: Basically, Yes
robertsloan2:
Deedlit's ISP sabotaged it looks like
JimMills:
I guess we'll wait for Deedlit to get back. Meantime, here's an interesting worldbuilding question... where do your gods come from? Have they just 'always existed'?
toesy:
As far as mycharacters are concerned - yes
robertsloan2:
Wow, thanks. No, I wound up with enough backstory about the origins of the gods to create a prehistoric cosmology and some unnamed dead gods in my best world.
writingbear:
The planet I'm currently working on I don't think they have any gods
JimMills:
Ah... well, in Battle Dragon, the gods have been around almost as long as mankind has been on Arra... and they come from mankind.
JimMills:
WB: What do they tell the kids about where we all came from?
JimMills:
And why there are natural phenomena?
writingbear:
But the fantasy that's currently down...the gods not only have been around for ever but have split into two different sides
Deedlit:
back. sorry about that
writingbear:
I think the society is kind of cynical in that they are the killers for the compact
JimMills:
That's often the case -- a reflection of the combative nature of the human condition.
JimMills:
What was your question, Clare?
Deedlit:
it's on a completely different topic..
JimMills:
Go ahead...
toesy:
go for it
writingbear:
plus the way most of the people came to the planet ...definitely NOT the gods
Deedlit:
in the last world I created, there was an event which literally split the world in two, creating two land masses, one of which is hidden - mist or something (not worked out). It is important to the plot that this did happen... but I don;t know why it happened.. any ideas?
JimMills:
was magic or divine intervention involved?
robertsloan2:
You've got gods, Deedlit. They might have agreed to separate jurisdictions and set the mist to enforce that.
JimMills:
Or it could be like Earth... plate tectonics over a vast length of time.
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Why it split or why it's hidden?
Deedlit:
different world robert. but there are gods in this one too.. although I don't want them interferring as much as in Tharnos. so no, I don;t want to gods involved, Jim.
Deedlit:
why it's split to start with.
Deedlit:
that's the important bit.
robertsloan2:
Yeah, and in terms of natural barriers ocean currents can keep people sailing from ever getting past that point.
JimMills:
ok... could be magic gone bad or cast deliberately... or back to world mechanics...
kiarlie:
which world deed?
Deedlit:
world mechanics..
Deedlit:
Teyrnas, Kia.
JimMills:
or an asteroid impact...
Deedlit:
wouldn't that cause lasting damage to the rest of the surrounding land as well?
kiarlie:
deed - is that something i have seen?
robertsloan2:
Or the sinking of a land bridge due to change in ocean level if you want naturalistic division.
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Borrow Greenworld from mine but warm it up a bit.
Deedlit:
no, I don't think so kia.
Deedlit:
greenworld?
toesy:
not if the gods or magic did it it could be done smoothly
JimMills:
probably, yes. It took a long time for life to reestablish itself after the one 65 million years ago.
Deedlit:
ah.. it has to be something that people survive through and have passed the story down through the generations.
JimMills:
(last was in answer to the lasting damage question)
robertsloan2:
Ice ages don't take as much restoration as asteroid impacts though. ANd they lower ocean levels or raise them when it warms. Land bridge is same place as ever. I'm thinking Siberia to Alaska passage as historical example.
toesy:
or australlia and the continent
JimMills:
What are you leaning towards? A sizable asteroid impact would cause windstorms and a long winter... it's happened in recorded history, too.
robertsloan2:
Right, was just thinking the one nearer to me, Dan
toesy:
Deed, you didn't want a catastrophy did you?
JimMills:
Clare: What are you leaning towards?
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Two degree axial tilt, hence a very sharp tropical belt. Fiddle around with the tectonics so that the equator is all water and then tinker with the weather so you get a belt of hot, sticky doldrum calms.
Deedlit:
erm... don't think the asteroid thing would work, simply because to be big enough to split the landmass in two, it would probably create a backlash that destroys everything.
Deedlit:
could people survive an ice age?
toesy:
got to go folk, turning into a pumpkin!
Deedlit:
bye dan.
robertsloan2:
People survived them. And the ice age is a thing that within relatively recent geological history came and went. G'night, Dan
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
That'd stop a sailing ship dead - literally. It'd probably kill the crew. You'd need engines to get through it.
robertsloan2:
But icing up would link the two continents again. Warming would drown the land bridge ending the passage.
kiarlie:
bye dan
JimMills:
Night, Dan...
Deedlit:
would said ice age be long enough for people to not know/forget that the two bits of land were supposed to be seperate?
robertsloan2:
Ah. Microdisaster. Julian May used the creation of the Mediterranean as one in the Pliocene Exile series. A shallow basin that should be a sea is blocked by a natural dam. WHam. Something breaks that rock wall and you have ocean and what had been a continent with a fertile plain now has two sides and a new ocean.
JimMills:
Clare: It could be long enough. Did all that give you any ideas?
robertsloan2:
It takes having a floodplain that's below sea level and protected by natural barriers that go down to some disaster.
Deedlit:
yes, thanks guys. I'll keep quiet now
JimMills:
Any other questions?
kiarlie:
kinda basic one - but where do people start with worldbuilding?
astropolis(Most of Bob Billing):
Midnight and time to change the bandages again. Bye all.
kiarlie:
bye
robertsloan2:
Bye, Bob... hope you feel better
writingbear:
bye
JimMills:
Night, Bob! Thanks! And get well! Start at the beginning... I start with Holly's questions...
Deedlit:
bye bob!
JimMills:
things like what special physics operate on your world? How do they work?
JimMills:
what special creatures or people exist? Why? What's their history? Etc.
JimMills:
Once you've gone through Holly's list, then you're about ready to start plotting.
<@Jim> Ok, let's roll... please hold questions until the end -- there'll be plenty of time.
<@Jim> Welcome to World Building Class 2: The Physics of Your World. Don't worry -- this isn't literally a class on physics, but a look at what you should consider when making your world in order to maintain believability.
<@Jim> If you're writing Science Fiction, physics is more important than if you're writing Fantasy. Statistically, SF readers are mostly scientists, while the majority of Fantasy readers tend towards computer programming.
<@Jim> I don't remember where I picked up that tidbit of information, but it's interesting. Even though fantasy readers tend not to be science types, there is some crossover, and you want your world to be feasible.
<@Jim> There's nothing quite like being at a book signing and have someone ask you how your world the size of New Zealand manages to hold it's atmosphere and how it stays cool only a million miles from the sun.
<@Jim> And there's nothing like being at the same book signing where you can answer those questions intelligently because you researched your world's physics before you wrote the story.
<@Jim> Here are some questions to ask yourself when constructing your world:
<@Jim> 1. What size and type of star -- or stars -- do you want? Stories have been written with worlds orbiting red stars (MZB's Darkover series comes to mind).
<@Jim> Different types of stars have different diameters and radiate different levels of heat. A red giant is different from a brown dwarf, is different from a white dwarf, etc.
<@Jim> And how close to place your world depends on a number of factors besides the temperature of the sun. I attended a seminar at Chicon (World SF Convention 2000) that dealt with some of these topics.
<@Jim> You can find my convention notes on the transcripts board: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=69237&messageid=968124196
<@Jim> For example, a physicist in one of those seminars said that any sun will look white from its planets. Which kind of ruins MZB's Darkover books with the red sun and red shadows...
<@Jim> However, there could be something in the atmosphere that could give color effects for that otherworldliness feeling. I was just told today that on Mars the sky looks pink (thanks, Robert).
<@Jim> Your planet's magnetosphere and tidal forces can affect atmosphere and heat retention, effectively warming your world even if it's more distant from the sun.
<@Jim> Which brings us to the next questions:
<@Jim> 2. How big do you make your world? What is it's compostion? Earth is about 8,000 miles in diameter and has an iron core. You can have a bigger or smaller world, with greater or lesser gravity.
<@Jim> If your planet's compostion is different, meaning it has a different mass, then your gravity may be altered accordingly.
<@Jim> Gravity is the force that holds the universe together. It's what makes the Earth stay in orbit around the sun, and it will probably be what makes your world(s) circle your sun(s).
<@Jim> It also makes planets round, unless there is a dynamic, balanced force at work to make them otherwise, like the equatorial bulge on Earth.
<@Jim> (warning - math coming up - don't panic!!)
<@Jim> Gravity at your world's surface depends on the mass of the planet. g=GM/r^2, where g is accelleration, G is the universal gravitational constant, M is the mass of the planet and r is its radius.
<@Jim> On average, g = 32 feet per second per second accelleration on Earth. Your world may vary, depending on its mass and size.
<@Jim> But that doesn't mean that if your world is the size of the moon, then everyone will jump around like supermen and women.
<@Jim> But that doesn't mean that if your world is the size of the moon, then everyone will jump around like supermen and women.
<@Jim> (sorry for repeat -- delays or something)
<@Jim> If they grew up in that gravity, then their musculature and body forms would be suited to their environment. We tend to be lazy creatures that only exercize as much as we are forced to.
<@Jim> 3. How many, if any, moons does your world have? Do they vary in size and distance? What about effects on tides? Do they have atmospheres? Do people live on them?
<@Jim> If people live on multiple worlds, how do they get from one to the other? Space ships? Magical gates?
<@Jim> These are things you need to consider if your world is different from Earth normal... and how do you communicate such differences to the reader when the characters think of their world as normal?
<@Jim> And what is normal? It might be different in your world. Holly has things to say on world building that you might do well to read now and then: http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/faqs8.html
<@Jim> "Fantasy Is Not for Sissies -- Real Rules for Real Worlds" and "Worldbuilding -- Rollicking Rules of Ecosystems" are two excellent how-to articles at http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/index.html
<@Jim> Thanks to Holly for the following. You can download a set of files I've prepared for this and other aspects of world building from: http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip
<@Jim> 4. What special physics does your world have? Faster-than-light travel, time travel, magic, extraordinary beasts, vampires, ghosts, angels, gods, goddesses and other phenomena.
<@Jim> In what way does my universe differ from the mundane norm? What is the nature of the difference? How exactly will these differences manifest?
<@Jim> You need to document these things, put them in a notebook and keep them handy for reference as you write, so that you maintain continuity in your story.
<@Jim> What are the rules by which the special physics operate? What effects will these rules have on culture and story?
<@Jim> Does your story have magic? High tech? Such things will touch every part of society to a greater or lesser degree. Fifty years ago computers were almost unheard of.
<@Jim> Now we have them in our homes.
<@Jim> What are the laws of my special physics? What can they do? What can't they do?
<@Jim> What is the nature of the people who will use these laws? How do they differ from regular people?
<@Jim> If you have people going around throwing fireballs and lightning bolts, they ~will~ have an effect on society.
<@Jim> What will that effect be? Will they be outlaws or the law of the land? Will they be warlords? Will they cause carnage and havoc by fighting with such magic power?
<@Jim> Keep in mind that new technology is always used, eventually, in warfare -- if it ~can~ be used.
<@Jim> Time was when people swore that we would never use machine guns in war.
<@Jim> Time was when people swore that biological weapons would never be used in war.
<@Jim> Or chemical weapons like mustard gas and nerve gas.
<@Jim> Or nuclear weapons. Like Hiroshima and Nigasaki.
<@Jim> What kind of damage could really powerful magic do if misused?
<@Jim> I can't answer these questions for you. It's your world and your story. You have to answer them. But I can tell you that these are questions you need to ask yourselves.
<@Jim> Let's go to Q&A. Any questions?
<Deedlit> do you think you have to have physics in magic?
<@Jim> You have to have believability and continuity.
<@Jim> You don't necessarily need to have formulae and calculations... but the system behind the magic has to be believable.
<Deedlit> so as long as you have laws, it doesn't necessarily have to follow our rules?
<@Jim> And if your hero has magic, his strengths should somehow be his weaknesses as well.
<@Jim> It doesn't have to follow our rules in this world. But it has to follow its own laws in your world.
<BklynWriter_> What if you are "science-challenged" like me? Where do I begin?
<@Jim> I began with Holly's guidelines, which I put into the file I mentioned earlier. You can download it from my site: http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip
<@Jim> You'll need to unzip the file... and it's mostly fill-in-the-blank.
<BklynWriter_> thanks!
<@Jim> Also, read ~all~ of Holly's articles... she gives some very, very good advice.
<@Jim> you're welcome. More questions?
<Robert> Does it help to play to the sciences you know deeply so that the rest seems more plausible? I'm good on evolutionary theory and apply that in magical worlds, less so on physics and mathphobe with number lysdexia...
<@Jim> Jess, you have to highlight the word "ALL" if you want everyone to see your text. I haven't read those authors, but they're not alone. Many writers use our laws of physics with minor variations, if any.
<Jess> has anyone read Peter F Hamilton and Iain M Banks - both use magic but keep to 'our' basic rules...
<@Jim> That's a good point, Robert. In SF it's a sort of rule that you get one assumption and the rest should rest on science. It ~does~ help believability.
<BklynWriter_> i can't seem to get to your page Jim
<@Jim> The same applies to fantasy -- you don't want your world to be so weird that the reader can't follow along.
<@Jim> It's not really a page, BW... it's a file and you should get a file download dialogue.
<@Jim> If you can't get it, give me your email and I'll send it to you after the class.
<BklynWriter_> ok
<@Jim> More questions?
<BklynWriter_> bklynwriter929@hotmail.com
<Jess> can we send relevant drafts to experts to check we have our facts right?
<@Jim> Most people don't want to be bothered to spend time to check facts for you... I'm afraid you have to do the reasearch. In my current WIP, I've been doing research into paleobotany... borrowing library books, etc.
<@Jim> My WIP is set in a world equivalent to the Earth's upper cretaceous period -- when dinosaurs roamed...
<BklynWriter_> Do you do all your worldbuilding pre-1st draft? or as you go along?
<@Jim> I do some in advance and some is fill-it-in as I go. IE: Human beings wouldn't last long against T-Rex's or velociraptors... but they have an edge... magic.
<@Jim> I had a pretty good idea of the overall setup before I started... and I knew I would need info on the upper cretaceous period... so part has been done in advance.
<@Jim> But I've discovered things I needed as I went along as well... I'm only up to chapter 5 so far.
<Deedlit> could I recommend a good research book for fantasy writers?
<@Jim> Sure!
<Deedlit> It's called - Myths & Magic: the complete fantasty reference. Published by Titan Books.
<Deedlit> It's got essays by lots of different writers including Terry Brooks and goes into magic, clothing, trade and commerce - all sorts of stuff.
<Deedlit> It's very very useful
<@Jim> I can't find it on Amazon.com... you you have the ISBN number?
<Deedlit> yeah - isbn 1-84023-059-2
<@Jim> Amazon can't find it, but maybe some others could.
<@Jim> Is it out of print?
<Deedlit> erm.. not sure. I found it when I was tydying up!
<Deedlit> hang
<Deedlit> hang on
<@Jim> I found one reference in a yahoo search: http://www.locusmag.com/index/yr1999/b3.html
<@Jim> Myths & Magic: The Complete Fantasy Reference (Titan 1-84023-059-2, Apr 99, Ł12.99, 277pp, tp, cover by Bob Eggleton) Reprint (Writer s Digest Books 1998 as The Writer s Complete Fantasy Reference) reference work, with an introduction by Terry Brooks. A guide to the history, myths, costumes, crafts, and magics of many cultures. Internally dated February 1999. [First U.K. edition]
<kiarlie> deed has just crashed! may take her a while to get back she is having isp problems
<BklynWriter_> barnes and noble has it in stock
<kiarlie> but that sounds like her book - i have seen it, its really good
<@Jim> Cool ! Thanks.
<@Jim> Any other questions?
<Robert> Any cool equivalence for the numerically impaired attempt at hard SF?
<Jehane> .
<@Jim> Hmmm... not that I can think of... when you get into astrophysics, things can get complicated in a hurry... I'll have to look around and see what I can find. There may be some online references.
<Jess> Peter F Hamilton has published a book which explains how his particular universe works...
<Jess> Bova and Robertson are good on terra-forming, but would mean dipping into their books to find relevant sections
<@Jim> Reviewing what others have done is a good start. Have you looked through the Resources Forum, Robert? http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/81972 It may have some relevent material.
<BklynWriter_> How about "Writers guide to Creating A Science Fiction Universe
<BklynWriter_> I know it is published by Writers Digest Books
<@Jim> I haven't seen that one... who's it by? Do you have the ISBN?
<@Jim> Robert: Here's one possibility: http://zebu.uoregon.edu/text.html it's the Astronomy Hypertext Project.
<BklynWriter_> i have the 1st one...there is a 2nd edition...but the ISBN is 0-89879-536-2
<BklynWriter_> you're lucky...it was at the top of the box of books I just rummaged through
<Robert> Thanks!
<@Jim> k -- thanks, BW... I'll have to look that one up. I've recommended a number of WD books... see my notes on the class sign-up page.
<Jehane> where can you get the wd books?
<BklynWriter_> I've printed out all your transcripts Jim, I just haven't had time to really read them.
<@Jim> http://writersdigest.com ... and click on the book club section.
<BklynWriter_> you can usually find them at B&N, or at writersdigest.com
<Robert> I hope you're transcribing this time... right. Makes sense.
<@Jim> If you join WDBC (Writers Digest Book Club), you get a nice discount.
<Jehane> do they ship overseas?
<@Jim> I always try to save it, Robert.
<Robert> Lots of titles on the WD list I want, I'd want the book club when I can afford it. Crime, Medical, lots.
<@Jim> I don't know, J... you can call and ask them... just a sec... I have the #
<@Jim> 386-447-6354 and I think they're open 8-5 eastern time Mon-Fri...
<Jehane> thanks Jim
<@Jim> yw... it says 9am to 5pm
<@Jim> Robert: Great reference for getting all that space science right. Remember, hard scifi readers are an intimidating audience who will look for any mistake. Minimize them by learning the science. From Harvard, or is it Haavard? http://ads.harvard.edu/books/hsaa/
<@Jim> That one's titled Handbook of Space Astronomy and Astrophysics.
<@Jim> You can also post questions on the Q&A board here on Holly's site.
<@Jim> More questions?
<BklynWriter_> no
<@Jim> There's a whole list of Worldbuilding sites on the resources board... it's a bit intimidating, but the best way to start is to wade in, take what you want and skip what you don't. http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/81972?it=1
<Jehane> what's the next topic?
<@Jim> 3. Maps. How much mapping do you need for your story? What tools do you use to map?
<kiarlie> is that going to be same time next week?
<Jehane> sounds good. I have to put together a map of my world.
<@Jim> There are a number of different mapping tools out there, and I'm not familiar with all of them. But I'll try to give an overview. No class next week -- next class is in two weeks. See you then. Thanks for coming! G'night!
<Jehane> Bye
<kiarlie> night jim, thanks
<Jess> thank you for the class, goodnight
<BklynWriter_> thank you for everything Jim
<Robert> Thanks for a great class and the links and referrals - and the help you gave me this morning with it!
<@Jim> You're welcome!
JimMills:
Ok... hi, everyone and welcome to World Building... tonight we're going to talk about maps.
BklynWriter:
kewl
Zephrene:
neat.
JimMills:
I've prepped a couple examples that I'll link for you in a minute...
JimMills:
You need a map for your story, whether you span multiple worlds or just one room.
JimMills:
Why? Even if you're in one room for your whole story (short or epic), you need consistency. The kitchen window should always face the same direction unless your room really does turn.
JimMills:
The kitchen door should stay beside the refrigerator, not move across the room from scene to scene. You need a picture. Get the picture?
JimMills:
The larger you story's area, the more you need the maps. If you start in Abberdale in chapter one, go across the land and, at the end, return to Aberdale, then it should be relatively the same unless a war passed through. Even then, there will be something the same to tell your characters that this is, indeed, Abberdale.
JimMills:
So, how do you do maps?
JimMills:
There are a number of answers. You could sit down with a pad of paper and sketch. But it's nice to have things like distances, so graph paper is better than plain paper.
JimMills:
Or you can get mapping software and do it on your PC. But not all mapping software is created equal.
JimMills:
In one of her articles, Holly had recommended VistaPro 4. I bought a copy and haven't spent enough time with it to tell you how to use it properly.
JimMills:
I have asked Holly to run a class on it... maybe sometime next year.
JimMills:
There are two maps there from my most recent WIP. The top one is a printout of Pangaea that I generated online, marked up by hand and scanned.
JimMills:
The second map was generated with nbos (available from http://www.nbos.com)
robertsloan2:
It didn't come up in a separate window. I lost everything from after you said "open in a separate window"
JimMills:
One of the nice things about nbos is that you can outline your land masses and then zoom in and get closer detail on areas around cities, towns, etc.
JimMills:
When you zoom in, you can place various objects on different layers and tell the software that you only want to see certain layers, in order to avoid clutter.
JimMills:
The point is to make it easier for you to draw and manipulate your maps.
JimMills:
Whether you draw them by hand or with a computer, you need to refer to them now and then in order to keep little details consistent in your stories. You don't want readers writing you or getting in your face at a convention and telling you that your details are in conflict.
JimMills:
Some mapping software packages have features to allow you to map and display 3D images for terrain effects like cliffs, hills and mountains. Those are nice, but I've found that just having a 2D map with some notes where there are hills and mountains... that's good enough for me.
JimMills:
You don't usually need to worry about maps for publication in your books... they'll probably have an artist redo them anyway... I'm not sure whether Holly's maps of Matrin are from her drawings or redone by an artist. That'd be an interesting question to ask her sometime.
JimMills:
The point of maps (to drive the point into the ground) is consistency of detail in your stories.
JimMills:
Any questions?
BklynWriter:
i find i'm intimidated by the idea of maps, simply because i can't draw
robertsloan2:
I'm doing a story that starts in a world like this one, it is currenlty at their vacation cabin and will probably center there. I'm not an architect.
robertsloan2:
Sorta similar question. I can visualize where the cabin faces in relation to sunset but don't have a 'map' idea of it.
BklynWriter:
i guess what i'm driving at, is...how to begin?
JimMills:
Well, you don't have to be a cartographer or an architect. A simple floorplan is all you need. Or a simple terrain map. I wish I had some prepared to show you, but I don't. Basically, put north at the top and draw in where the house is, maybe some features of the landscape around it, and the floorplan inside. If doing multiple stories, make sure things like stairs line up.
JimMills:
For terrain maps, start with large things, like the land masses. Then draw in somewhat smaller but major things like mountains, lakes, rivers, major forests, plains, etc.
JimMills:
Put cities, towns, farmlands last.
robertsloan2:
So for me on my scale it would be the main road, the lake, the drive, where neighbors are.
BklynWriter:
I've got the exterior pictured...a series of domes in a honeycomb pattern, but the interior is what i need to map out.
JimMills:
If you're not good at drawing maps, it doesn't matter -- you needn't show them to anyone. They are for your reference.
BklynWriter:
this god-like power of worldbuilding can be daunting...whew!
Deedlit:
but what about geography? I mean, if we don't know what were doing - we could end up have impossible rivers etc
JimMills:
BW, your domes will probably have interconnecting tubes? With airlocks? Inside the domes, the cities will be divided into certain areas. You have to think about functionality. Are you writing SF?
BklynWriter:
yes
JimMills:
That's always a possibility, Deed... as far as water flow, remember that water usually flows downhill, so your rivers almost always go from mountains or highlands to lakes and seas.
BklynWriter:
and it is on the moon, so I need to look at the moon terrain as well
JimMills:
There are other considerations on the moon. Most likely, they wouldn't build domes because of meteor hazard. They'd dig caves and go underground.
JimMills:
D: A study of some terrain maps of Earth might be of help in realizing how nature behaves. You can change things, of course, but unless there are outside forces at work, water flows downhill, plate tectonics tend to make hills and mountains, etc.
Deedlit:
thanks Jim.
JimMills:
Life adapts to the surrounding environment and will flourish in whatever way it can (forests, plains, etc.).
robertsloan2:
BK - when I was heavily into gaming on paper there were game companies that sold hex grid paper, you could use that for rough dome planning. Most wargames have it.
JimMills:
Yw.
BklynWriter:
okay. back to the drawing board
BklynWriter:
thanks jim, robert
JimMills:
Or you can use square grids and a compass.
JimMills:
you're welcome... more questions?
robertsloan2:
I was concerned about architectural impossibilities - and if I draw up the cabin's floor plan I'll wind up having something that has an architectural style that might not be consistent with the area.
robertsloan2:
I could be opening up a different level of critical fact checking fen.
JimMills:
I got disconnected... did you get my last send, Robert?
robertsloan2:
No, don't think I did if it was to my architectural impossibilities question.
robertsloan2:
No, don't think I did and Cato just ate my post.
JimMills:
You can do research if you feel you need it. Check for architectural plan books at the library or at a home depot.
JimMills:
Find something you can use, modify it if needed and go with it.
BklynWriter:
i think i've seen something like colorforms, where you can "design" your home....i just need to remember just where i saw it
robertsloan2:
Hmm. Realtors. I need it to be old, maybe 80 or 100 years old, so maybe looking at real estate guides could help.
JimMills:
It has all kinds of information... maybe it'll be of help. Bookmark it... I'm not sure if it's linked into the main menus.
JimMills:
More questions?
JimMills:
Ok... next week we'll talk about: Your world's inhabitants. Do you have dwarves and elves? What about characters of other races? What about creatures? How to define physical form, advantages and weaknesses, how the creature reproduces its own kind, how the creature works, what it does and a history of the form.
Deedlit:
how much detail do you reckon you should go into with world maps?
JimMills:
As little or as much as needed. You have to make that call for your stories, Clare.
JimMills:
You can always leave gaps and fill it in as you go, too.
Deedlit:
ok
robertsloan2:
Oh thank you. That last comment helped me too. <G>
BklynWriter:
well jim i'm going to try to make my domes feasible; see what i can come up with <g>
BklynWriter:
thanks for all your help! class is next sunday? what time?
JimMills:
Okay. You're welcome. See you all next week. Thanks for coming. Good luck and keep writing!
World Building Transcript 11-11-2001: Creatures & Races
November 11 2001, 6:53 PM
<@Jim> Okay... let's get started.
<@Jim> Welcome to World Building 101, Class 3. This session we'll talk about your world's inhabitants. Do you have dwarves and elves? What about characters of other races? What about creatures?
<@Jim> We'll discuss how to define physical form, advantages and weaknesses, how the creature reproduces its own kind, how the creature works, what it does and a history of the form.
<@Jim> You should make a list of the creatures and types of people in your story. It needn't be a complete list... you can add to it later.
<@Jim> Human beings: we pretty much have a feel for what they can and cannot do, though that can vary, too. You should list any exceptional classes of humans, such as half-elves, heavy- or light-gravity-worlders, or any new races with different abilities.
<@Jim> When you have a list, add a description of the physical form. This is especially important if your creature or race is not like anything we've ever seen before.
<@Jim> You'll want to describe these creatures/races to your readers. And you must be consistent. The document you create will be your blueprint for consistency. Refer to it often.
<@Jim> Next, you want to list what all the creature or race can do. What powers do they have that humans don't? What can they do with said powers?
<@Jim> What weaknesses do they have? Superman had kryptonite. Your creatures should have weaknesses that the characters of your story may discover and exploit. How they do that is up to you. It's your story in your world, after all.
<@Jim> Next, how does the creature reproduce its own kind? Do they breed like animals and raise the young? Do the young go off on their own and live a feral life? Or do they alter living beings the way vampires do?
<@Jim> Or do they do something different and unique? New twists are good in world building, too.
<@Jim> How does the creature work? If it's the size of a battleship and weighs almost as much and has wings to flap and fly, how does it lift so much mass? Magic? Antigravity?
<@Jim> Whatever it does, you must know how it works, even if we don't. Your characters may discover how it works in your story, or they may not. If it comes out, you need consistency.
<@Jim> That's what worldbuilding is for: consistency. If it works one way in chapter 1 and another way in chapter 2, there should be a reason and that, too, should be documented in your blueprint.
<@Jim> You'll also want a history of the form, whether creature or race. How did they come to be? Were they created by a mad mage (or scientist)? Did they evolve on another world?
<@Jim> How did it all happen? What has happened since? If it comes out in your story, you want it to be believable and coherent. If it doesn't, it'll still show through in your writing.
<@Jim> The creature (or race) will act in accordance with the rules you define for them.
<@Jim> Questions?
<Robert> What you do just has to be consistent with itself to be plausible, right?
<@Jim> Yes, unless there's a reason why it changed. That could be part of your story. If so, it should make sense to the reader.
<@Jim> In your blueprint, you'll document when the BIG EVENT takes place... and define what's what before and after.
<@Jim> Or you may have several EVENTS... you'll need to document each stage if that's the case.
<BklynWriter> i have aliens who believe that they may somehow be related to humans, but the humans do not believe it..how could i make that believable
<Robert> In terms of the 90% of backstory never published, it seems to hep plausibility if I've got notes or files on its entire evolutionary history. That Big Event makes sense in terms of evolutionary principles, punctuated equilibrium.
<Robert> Bklyn, you just did. I don't assume characters' theories are right and it sounds like two groups of them disagree leaving reader to make up their minds.
<@Jim> Exactly. Your notes are your blueprint... whatever you call them, you need to organize them to your best advantage.
<Sarah> Bk, similarities that aren't immediately apparent (i.e. reproductive compatability between species that look nothing alike) might work. Same chromosome count, etc.
<@Jim> Deb, humans don't believe anything until you pound it into their heads or they realize it for themselves. Or they believe the false thing.
<Robert> Jim's so right, offhand the aliens are getting the benefit of doubt just on the blurb.
<Deedlit> Jim, I was once told that in fantasy, you should always have Humans (a human mc for preference)...what do you think?
<BklynWriter> basicallay they are being told that they [humans] are a failed experiment...
<Robert> BK, I wouldn't be offended, be relieved. If hte experiment was 'create an obedient war machine' and it failed and I happened, that's great!
<@Jim> lol Clare. In my current WIP, the MC is a dragon who has been locked into human form. There are always exceptions to the rule. But you want your reader to be able to identify with your MC.
<@Jim> I like to think I've accomplished that with Tataki.
<Gayle> I like her Jim
<@Jim> Deb: I can see why the humans wouldn't like that idea.
<@Jim> Thanks, Gayle. <g>
<Robert> I like her and I can find her very easy to understand. I don't have a problem with nonhuman protagonists and tend to like them!
<Deedlit> well, maybe it was just my creative writing group at uni then!
<Robert> Maybe it is - and maybe in speculative fiction its' a classic artistic challenge to create 'sympathetic nonhuman protagonists'
<Robert> Or in regular literature too remembering all the animal protagonist nature novels that are classics.
<Sarah> I think it's more fun to use nonhumans (watership down and tailchaser's song spring immediately to mind)
<@Jim> That depends a lot on how they're portrayed. Everyone has an opinion. You want reader identification. The easiest way to do that is with a human character. It takes a bit more work to do that with an alien or other race.
<Gayle> Doesn't that depend on when you tell your readers that your MC is not human...if you have them hooked first their not going to be the story down because they want to know the ending...right?
<@Jim> But it can make a very good story. In Holly's Secret Texts trilogy, the heroine is a karnee skinshifter... sort of a werewolf, but different, too. She has both benefits and problems, not the least of which is that if the public finds out, they'll kill her.
<Gayle> that should be they're
<Robert> Greatest romance novel I ever read is "Raptor Red" by Robert Bakker - a young female Utahraptor is widowed and seeks a new mate, while her sister hates the young male who's chasing her. They're very romantic creatures as tehy pairbond.
<@Jim> That depends on the story, Gayle. In BD, they have suspicions, but they don't really know until chapter 9 (which is posted, btw).
<Robert> Gayle, that's allegory for anyone who hides that they're Jewish, hides they're gay, hides they're stamp collectors, a human situation...
<@Jim> That sounds interesting, Robert. <g>
<Robert> It is a grand book and it's utterly real-world animal novel, Lower Cretaceous as exotic locale can't be beat and Raptor Red is a memorable character.
<Gayle> But it's not hiding if you leave hints about the MC
<Robert> (plugging the teacher with real validity) Jim did a fantastic job hinting about Tataki in a dozen ways till it was revealed in the latest chapter. Starting with the dang title "Battle Dragon" where I kept waiting for a battle dragon to show up. Well she has and she gets in fights every chapter, so that fits!
<@Jim> That's true. It could be kept as a surprise at the end... but you better make sure the reader has a few hints and that it's a pleasant surprise if that's the case.
<Gayle> not that any of my current WIP has anything other that humaniods in them
<Robert> My big fat under consideration series, I introduced the humanoids first to do diplomacy in English and added the less obvious races as I went.
<Gayle> as MC's that is
<Robert> Till you find out one very reasonable theory is the sentient vegetables domesticated the humanoids for their flavor.
<Robert> I try to think outside my phylum...
<JimMills> Bak... got disconnected... any questions since "not that any of my current WIP has anything other that humaniods in them"?
<Sarah> Writing non-humanoid characters is fun, but tricky, since you really have to be aware of how everything changes (diet, gestures, philosophy)
<Robert> Underlying motivations, hobbies, habits. I'm currently working up some aquatics off mollusks and sea anemones, sessile sapients would have a very different view of life.
<JimMills> Not every chapter, Robert... no fights in chapter 2... lol
<Robert> She's wonderful and she does have a life besides fighting. It's just that fighting is her main profession the way writing's mine. She had the most fun in the match that got bet on. That was where her heart was, she wants to go back to arena athlete fight for finesse points.
<BklynWriter> i'm taking the easy way out by having my aliens similar to humans, but with several differences
<JimMills> That's true... a different environment would shape that creature's or race's lives and make them behave quite differently from human normal.
<JimMills> Deb: Those differences are what you need to document for consistency. They have to be the same, in general, in chapter 1 and chapter 21... or have a good reason why they've changed.
<Robert> That's not always the easy way out, Bklyn. The differences will have their consequences and secondary and tertiary consequences whatever they are.
<BklynWriter> i've started exploring their differeneces
<JimMills> A human being who grows up in New York will be different from a human being who grows up in Beijing or on Mars. But they're still human and have things in common. They also have things that are different.
<Robert> I've done fun things in backfiles like fan fiction off my own universe without worrying about whether it's good - just to work things out like that in practice so that one paragraph out of it gets rewritten into a book.
<JimMills> Those differences between races or beings are what you need to document.
<Robert> And regions - an alien that grew up in NYC might be more of a New Yorker than in tune with its alien culture!
<JimMills> Good point.
<JimMills> More questions?
<BklynWriter> they welcome change, they don't understand the huge bureaucracy of government; they want to teach us, but we humans are pushing them away because we don't trust them
<JimMills> Trust comes slow... and can be violated... a few years ago, the Afghans and bin Laden were our friends, or so we thought when we helped them fight the Russians.
<Robert> Jim, where do you fall on "nature" or "nurture" and "individual choice"? In race building you're setting up the Nature and Nurture elements but with characters the character's proclivity to go native to charming humans on grounds of one philosophical point could happen.
<JimMills> It's always an open issue, Robert. Any individual functions within certain parameters, though. Getting outside of those parameters takes extraordinary means. Man cannot fly unaided. So we make planes.
<JimMills> If your creature/race building says "they eat humans" then it's unlikely they'll get buddy-buddy with a human, but it could happen (anyone watch Earth Final Conflict this season?).
<Robert> Wish I had - and I had the exception to that one with the plant people and their flatworm learning - they'd get quite buddy buddy and prefer sentient food.
<JimMills> I guess it all depends on how you handle it in your story, Robert.
<JimMills> More questions?
<JimMills> Any worldbuilding topic?
<JimMills> No class next week. We'll meet in two weeks. Topic will be: Time. Calendars, varying year lengths, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, seconds or their equivalents in terms of your stories. What do the people use for timekeeping? Bells, candles, sand clocks, sundials, water clocks, etc.
World Building Course Transcript 12-02-2001: Calendars and Timekeeping
December 2 2001, 6:36 PM
<Jim> Shall we get started? Welcome to World Building Class 5 - Calendars and timekeeping.
<Jim> We world build to give our readers that sense of wonder they want from our stories. Part of that can, and often does, include calendars and timekeeping.
<Jim> You can draw inspiration from the past and find new twists to use in your stories.
<Jim> People find a need to measure time. The simplest and most obvious is the changes in the sun's position due to the Earth's rotation (though the ancients thought the sun rotated around the Earth).
<Jim> Primitive folk divided days into dawn, early morning, midmorning, late morning, noon, early afternoon, midafternoon, late afternoon, dusk and night.
<Jim> Some may have divided the night up based on star movements, but not much is recorded before the time of the Egyptians.
<Jim> Your stories can use sundials, stones set in the ground, water clocks, the burn rate of candles (often marked with bands af candlemarks), the ringing of bells, etc.
<Jim> Someone could count off the days with marks on a wall. In time, they would realize that a year is so many days, as are seasons, etc.
<Jim> You are free to devise your own methods for your story, and you may only use a few references in an entire novel, but if you do your worldbuilding, it will show in your work.
<Jim> Consistency is key. You need to define the details for your own reference.
<Jim> Need some ideas? A look at ancient timekeeping may give us some.
<Jim> Celestial bodies - the sun, moon, planets, and stars - have provided us a reference for measuring the passage of time throughout our existence.
<Jim> Ancient civilizations relied upon the apparent motion of these bodies through the sky to determine seasons, months, and years.
<Jim> We know little about the details of timekeeping in prehistoric eras, but wherever we turn up records and artifacts, we usually discover that in every culture, some people were preoccupied with measuring and recording the passage of time.
<Jim> Ice-age hunters in Europe over 20,000 years ago scratched lines and gouged holes in sticks and bones, possibly counting the days between phases of the moon.
<Jim> Five thousand years ago, Sumerians in the Tigris-Euphrates valley in today's Iraq had a calendar that divided the year into 30-day months, divided the day into 12 periods (each corresponding to 2 of our hours), and divided these periods into 30 parts (each like 4 of our minutes).
<Jim> We have no written records of Stonehenge, built over 4000 years ago in England, but its alignments show its purposes apparently included the determination of seasonal or celestial events, such as lunar eclipses, solstices and so on.
<Jim> The earliest Egyptian calendar was based on the moon's cycles, but later the Egyptians realized that the "Dog Star" in Canis Major, which we call Sirius, rose next to the sun every 365 days, about when the annual inundation of the Nile began.
<Jim> Based on this knowledge, they devised a 365-day calendar that seems to have begun in 4236 B.C., the earliest recorded year in history.
<Jim> In Babylonia, again in Iraq, a year of 12 alternating 29-day and 30-day lunar months was observed before 2000 B.C., giving a 354-day year.
<Jim> In contrast, the Mayans of Central America relied not only on the sun and moon, but also the planet Venus, to establish 260-day and 365-day calendars.
<Jim> This culture flourished from around 2000 B.C. until about 1500 A.D. They left celestial-cycle records indicating their belief that the creation of the world occurred in 3113 B.C.
<Jim> Their calendars later became portions of the great Aztec calendar stones. Other civilizations, such as our own, have adopted a 365-day solar calendar with a leap year occurring every fourth year.
<Jim> Earliest Clocks: Not until somewhat recently (that is, in terms of human history) did people find a need for knowing the time of day.
<Jim> As best we know, 5000 to 6000 years ago great civilizations in the Middle East and North Africa initiated clock-making as opposed to calendar-making.
<Jim> With their attendant bureaucracies and formal religions, these cultures found a need to organize their time more efficiently.
<Jim> After the Sumerian culture was lost without passing on its knowledge, the Egyptians were the next to formally divide their day into parts something like our hours.
<Jim> Obelisks (slender, tapering, four-sided monuments) were built as early as 3500 B.C.
<Jim> Their moving shadows formed a kind of sundial, enabling citizens to partition the day into two parts by indicating noon.
<Jim> They also showed the year's longest and shortest days when the shadow at noon was the shortest or longest of the year.
<Jim> Later, markers added around the base of the monument would indicate further time subdivisions.
<Jim> Another Egyptian shadow clock or sundial, possibly the first portable timepiece, came into use around 1500 B.C. to measure the passage of "hours."
<Jim> This device divided a sunlit day into 10 parts plus two "twilight hours" in the morning and evening.
<Jim> When the long stem with 5 variably spaced marks was oriented east and west in the morning, an elevated crossbar on the east end cast a moving shadow over the marks.
<Jim> At noon, the device was turned in the opposite direction to measure the afternoon "hours."
<Jim> Water clocks were among the earliest timekeepers that didn't depend on the observation of celestial bodies.
<Jim> One of the oldest was found in the tomb of Amenhotep I, buried around 1500 B.C. Later named clepsydras ("water thief") by the Greeks, who began using them about 325 B.C., these were stone vessels with sloping sides that allowed water to drip at a nearly constant rate from a small hole near the bottom.
<Jim> Other clepsydras were cylindrical or bowl-shaped containers designed to slowly fill with water coming in at a constant rate. Markings on the inside surfaces measured the passage of "hours" as the water level reached them.
<Jim> These clocks were used to determine hours at night, but may have been used in daylight as well.
<Jim> Another version consisted of a metal bowl with a hole in the bottom; when placed in a container of water the bowl would fill and sink in a certain time.
<Jim> These were still in use in North Africa this century.
<Jim> More elaborate and impressive mechanized water clocks were developed between 100 B.C. and 500 A.D. by Greek and Roman horologists and astronomers.
<Jim> The added complexity was aimed at making the flow more constant by regulating the pressure, and at providing fancier displays of the passage of time.
<Jim> Some water clocks rang bells and gongs, others opened doors and windows to show little figures of people, or moved pointers, dials, and astrological models of the universe.
<Jim> In Europe during most of the Middle Ages (roughly 500 to 1500 A.D.), technological advancement was at a virtual standstill. Sundial styles evolved, but didn't move far from ancient Egyptian principles.
<Jim> During these times, simple sundials placed above doorways were used to identify midday and four "tides" of the sunlit day.
<Jim> By the 10th Century, several types of pocket sundials were used. One English model identified tides and even compensated for seasonal changes of the sun's altitude.
<Jim> Then, in the early-to-mid-14th century, large mechanical clocks began to appear in the towers of several large Italian cities.
<Jim> Your stories can use shadow clocks, or sundials, or whatever you want to call them. Or you can come up with something completely different.
<Jim> You can measure seconds, minutes, hours and give them different names, such as microts and arns, as on Farscape.
<Jim> You can call months, seasons and years by other names, but somehow you have to get across to your reader a feeling for what the terms mean.
<Jim> You can vary the hours in a day and days in a year (or other time divisions) on your world rather than make them identical to Earth.
<Jim> Strive for that sense of wonder. The idea is to find a new twist for that sense of wonder and be consistent in your use of it. Good luck.
<Jim> Discussion and/or questions?
<Jehane> ummm...wow!
<Deedlit> I've always found as a reader that if the writer has made up new words for time divisions and distances etc.. it gets very very distracting.. is there a way to maintain that sense of wonder without annoying the reader?
<Robert> In my main fantasy series, I used a calendar with some fudge days marked on it as Time of Chaos and literally not measured.
<Jim> You don't want to overwhelm your readers. You can get away with it if you use similar sounding names.
<Jim> Don't reference them too often...
<Jim> But if you call hours arns, then the reader will catch on. Or call them Ors or Ars or something like that. That's one trick you can use.
<Jim> A day could be a Sun, or a Sun and a Dark...
<Deedlit> ok - but surely if you are going to use exactly the same time divisions that we do.. there is little point in making up words, if everything else in your world is based on english,
<Jim> That's true... if you want to have 22 months and call them zoobahs, you can, but you'll need to explain it at some point.
<Jim> If you want to use seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years, that's ok too...
<Jim> It's all up to you. But some choose to do it differently and, when well done, it adds to the flavor of the story.
<Robert> I've also sometimes followed the Chinese thing of naming the months, hours, years by some local animal, readers tend to find that colorful and cool but not incomprehensible.
<Deedlit> if you don't use our system of time.. then you need to research into the science of what's possible - just as brian aldiss had to do for the Heliconia series...I don't believe in changing things for the sake of it - it doesn't necessarily add flavour but complications.
<Deedlit> that's a nice idea, robert - but again, it's using something in existence, so the readers can understand and relate to it. which is important
<Jim> That's true -- and a good point, Clare. Whatever system you use, it should have a 'sense' to it.
<Robert> My aliens all have a sacred number, divide the day into that many hours and name them, but I call them hours. I translate everything else out of their language, so I call them hours.
<Robert> Even if they're quite longer than ours, like about an hour and twenty minutes.
<Jim> That works too. Asimov and Silverberg did the same thing in the novel Nightfall, with an introduction explaining that they were translating.
<Jim> Holly had her own timekeeping system in The Secret Text series, but I found it a little confusing at times. Even so, it didn't matter that I didn't know the name of the 2nd hour before sunset. It was there for flavor.
<Robert> Literal translation is probably 'the dance of time around the sun's waking' or something else klunky and poetic. <G>
<Jim> It really is up to you. You have the option. Any other questions?
<Deedlit> I don't.
<Deedlit> just thought I'd say something as everyone else went silent!
<Jim> lol
<Jim> Well next week: Cultures. How your people live determines how they behave. Arabs are different from Chinese who are different from Americans -- we come in great variety. The cultures of your characters are part of your world building, too. It's all part of the sense of wonder that fascinates your readers and keeps them coming back for more of your books.
<Robert> One - if a culture measured things by events like dawn or noon or sunset, they may not have hours or care.
<kia> can't think of any questions (had gone silent cause i was thinking!!!)
<Jim> That's true, Robert. It depends on their needs.
<Robert> Agricultural would need planting days and seasons but not time of day much. Industrial needs minutes and seconds and that. Hunting gathering means 'when it rains and the herds move' more likely.
<Jehane> Reminds of a quote from Terry Pratchett's Last Continent.
<Robert> I'd dearly love to hear the Pratchett quote, these are usually good.
<Jim> Well, Robert, the farmers tend to get up before the sun, work all day, and go to bed after dark. But they know the difference between morning and afternoon as a rule.
<Jim> Go ahead, Jehane...
<Jehane> "...but there were no hours here. There was dawn and dusk, morning and afternoon, and presumably there was midnight and midday, but mainly there was heat. And redness. Something as artificial as an hour wouldn't last five minutes here. It would be dried out and shrivelled up in seconds."
<Deedlit> <lol>
<Jehane> Sorry it took so long, my typing skills are still a biyt slow
<kia> <lol> i remember that bit!
<Jim> That's a good one! I also like the way Burroughs handled time in Pellucidar... with a sun that was always at noon... they got tired, they slept. That was time.
<Robert> I hoped someone would mention Pellucidar and measuring by sleeps.
<Jim> lol
<Jim> Any other questions?
<Jim> Ok, well, I guess we'll see you all next week...
<Deedlit> nope
<Jehane> VEnus has a day longer than its year.
<Jehane> Have thought about doing something with that.
<Robert> Oh, something to mention. A lot of medieval magic recipes you have to pick the plant at three am on a new moon or something like that, detail of use of time in fantasy.
<Deedlit> bye Jim and thanks
<Jehane> .
<Robert> Dang that's cool, Jehane!
<Robert> Thanks, Jim
<kia> bye jim thanks
<Jehane> Lots to think about. THanks Jim
<Jim> Good point, Robert... they got that from herbalism.
World Building Course Transcript 01-06-2002: Cultures
January 6 2002, 10:36 PM
Many thanks to Robert A. Sloan for keeping this transcript. Mine had holes in it since I got disconnected a couple of times. How I miss my old DSL from my old address.
-- Jim :-/
Worldbuilding with Jim Mills Transcript Jan. 6 2002:
[Robert] Hi, Jim! I'm really looking forward to this.
[Deedlit] hello
[@Jim] Hi Robert!
[Deedlit] kia is coming.. she is just feeding the cat first
[Robert] Hi Deed - yeah, I caught that and Meg has to come first. I already fed Ari
[@Jim] Hi Clare!
[Deedlit] I haven't forgotten about doing crits for both of you guys, just have to get my slightly less ill head on to concentrate on doing them
[@Jim] I think I owe you one, too...
[Anne_Marble] Puff, puff, puff.
[Deedlit] hi anne
[Robert] Please hit High Goth in Horror-Dark for it if you owe me, that one's going out real soon...
[Anne_Marble] Howdy
[Robert] Hi Anne
[@Jim] Hi Anne!
[Deedlit] Jim, that would involve me writing something worthy of the boards!
[@Jim] We'll give people a few more minutes before we start...
[Deedlit] sure
[@Jim] Well, Clare, it seems to me I've read some of your work and it was worthy... I had a few critiques as I recall, but it wasn't ~bad~...
[Robert] Deedlit, I'm not sure it has to be really good before hitting the boards, in a crit circle it would help to put up the stuff that needs the most help!
[Robert] That's more in the abstract. I liked your stories.
[julia_pass] Hey all.
[Robert] But as a principle I'm thinking of putting up my worst more than my best.
[Robert] Hi Julia
[@Jim] Hi Julia!
[Bklyn] g'evening all
[@Jim] Hi BW!
[Robert] I'm also transcribing, Jim. Will mail when class is over. AOL works now so I can use the hotlinks again! Such a relief! Hi Deb!
[julia_pass] Hi Deb.
[Anne_Marble] Rain isn't supposed to go "clickity click click" when it falls.
[@Jim] Thanks, Robert...
[Deedlit] hi julia, hi bklyn
[Robert] No, Anne, that's not traditional rain at all. Hail the season.
[@Jim] That's sleet, Anne...
[julia_pass] It is if you want to get off school tomorrow, Anne.
[Anne_Marble] I brought a manuscript home to work on just in case. :-/
[Deedlit] not what I meant robert, Jim.. I'm working on two things atm.. a novel to amuse me and a novel for submission - when I get soemthing written on that I'll post again
[Robert] Good idea, Anne!
[@Jim] Anon... if you click in the Name box, then type your name and press Enter, we'll know who you are...
[Robert] Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
[@Jim] Okay, Clare... np.
[@Jim] Well, let's get started...
[@Jim] First, my apologies for missing some sessions. Real life intervened, unfortunately. In future, if real life rears its ugly head, I'll try to post on the writer's discussion board to let everyone know if there will be a cancellation, rescheduling or postponement. Again, my apologies.
[@Jim] The next session will be in three weeks, on January 27th, 6 p.m. Eastern US time, here in Conference Room 1, or in the class chatroom if the conference rooms are down. Last session (#5) we talked about timekeeping, from ancient calendars to water clocks. This time, we'll move from timekeeping to putting some culture into our stories...
[@Jim] Session 6: Cultures. You can use existing cultures in your stories, extrapolate cultural mixes, or invent wholly new societal patterns to fit your tastes. Umm, what exactly ~is~ culture? Let's see...
[Bklyn] hello
[@Jim] The American Heritage Dictionary defines culture as social and intellectual formation, the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions and all other products of human work and thought characteristic of a community or population. Whew! What a mouthful!
[@Jim] It goes on with some alternate definitions... a style of social and artistic expression peculiar to a society or class, individual and artistic activity... and other things that don't apply to our discussion, such as biology and soil cultures. Double Whew!
[@Jim] What does that mean? I'm not a sociology professor by any stretch of the imagination (I had ~one~ Soc class in college in the early 70's, wasn't too thrilled with it at the time, and remember very little of it), but let's take a brief look.
[@Jim] "Social and intellectual formation"... I read this as the interactions between people or peoples. Hey! That's the makings of a story, isn't it?
[@Jim] "...the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions and all other products of human work and thought characteristic of a community or population." That gives us a window to some details we can include in our stories.
[@Jim] Details such as what kind of art our characters prefer, based in part on their cultural development. By carefully plopping a detail into your story, you can make a comment on the culture of your characters' people.
[@Jim] Your characters can express their beliefs, one to another. They may go to church or temple or some equivalent. The institutions in their lives tell the reader something about the characters' people.
[@Jim] Products of human work and thought can include a lot of things -- architecture, bridges, colleges, democracy (or monarchy or whatever), libraries, city streets, town roads, etc. Give it some thought, and you can find all kinds of ways to apply culture in your story.
[Bklyn2] .
[@Jim] How do you structure this for use in your stories? You have to define cultures and subcultures for various areas from which your characters originate, in which the characters will be acting, traveling and/or which may in some way affect your story.
[@Jim] So... how do you use existing cultures in your stories, extrapolate cultural mixes, or invent wholly new societal patterns to fit your tastes?
[@Jim] Even if your story is set on Earth in modern times, you need to be aware of cultural differences. If your story takes place entirely in one city, even in one building, you may run into people from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, and you should portray them in a believable manner.
[@Jim] World Building isn't just for fantasy and science fiction. It applies to stories set here on Earth as well, and your stories need to have that background behind them to give them credibility.
[@Jim] If you're one of those who can do all this in your head, more power to you. I have to have certain things written out on paper (or in a file I can readily access) to keep all the details straight.
[@Jim] Like any other aspect of world building, continuity within your story or series is very important. Keep those details straight. If they change, there better be a reason for the change.
[@Jim] In previous sessions of this course we've discussed special physics (magic or science), maps, inhabitants (people and critters), and timekeeping. Have you drawn your maps yet? I'll assume you have.
[@Jim] Do your maps cover different countries? Maybe they depict different regions within a country. Do they show areas where the cultures differ? Cultural behavior evolves over time, and is often influenced by the area in which a people live.
[@Jim] Do you have peoples that are primarily hunter-gatherers? Do you have agrarian (farming) cultures? What experiences here on Earth do we have to draw on? Those of you not from Earth, feel free to stay for the after-class discussion.
[@Jim] Tribes in Africa sometimes hunt and forage for food. They tend to have their own mythos, stories and patterns of behavior. The same is true in some other areas of the world, and we've probably all seen TV documentaries of some of these peoples.
[@Jim] As communication and travel technology improve, a culture evolves with it. The European cultures changed over time when they could establish colonies in faraway lands like America and Australia.
[@Jim] The colonies changed over time, too. The nations of the Americas and Australia are no longer colonies of the British, Spanish or other European nations, but our roots were there, historically.
[@Jim] Your world should have history, too. It might do your story good to plot out a history of how your peoples spread and founded new countries.
[@Jim] Why do people make countries, anyway? At first, it's survival, pure and simple -- defense against predators, group efforts to gather or grow food, etc.
[@Jim] Later, the predators come on two legs. Again, a country (or tribe or town or city) bands together for defense and common interests of survival.
[kiarlie] finally made it!
[Julia_Pass] Hi Kiarlie.
[@Jim] Welcome, Kia!
[@Jim] The last two statements may seem unnecessary once stated, but when building a world's history, it can be important to have these concepts in mind.
[Robert] Hi Kia
[@Jim] If your country just appeared out of nowhere for no reason, your readers will sense that you didn't do your world building homework.
[Deedlit] hi kia
[@Jim] If you do your homework, though, your readers will sense that, too. You may spend hours or days or weeks putting together many pages of details and then only use two or three such details in your stories. But readers can tell.
[@Jim] Back to cultures... Even among more modernized peoples, there are cultural differences. Sociologists have categorized endlessly, but what are we concerned with as storytellers?
[@Jim] We want to give the people in our stories individual and unique cultures to add to the sense of wonder and believability, and to enhance conflicts within the story. Farmers fight ranchers; cattle barons fight sheepherders; warrior cultures raid all of the above, etc.
[@Jim] How you do this is up to you. It's your story. You can draw on Earth cultures for inspiration, or use parts of them here and there to develop a wholly alien people with their own beliefs and behaviors.
[@Jim] But those beliefs and behaviors have to have a logical cause-and-effect history. As a society, people don't do things on whims. They do them to meet their needs.
[@Jim] There are many, many cultures and peoples from which to draw inspiration: Aboriginal, African, Asian, Aztec, European, Indian, Incan, Latino, Polynesian, Viking... subdivisions of the above... historic or modern... the list goes on and on.
[@Jim] How do you document cultures and subcultures? I have a document that I've mentioned in previous sessions that can help, based on one of Holly's articles. You can download the file from http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip.
[bklyn] .
[@Jim] Extract four files from the Zip file (use Winzip if you don't have a zip utility -- available free from http://www.winzip.com): World Building.doc, World Building.rtf, Character Design.doc, and Character Design.rtf.
[@Jim] The .doc files are in Microsoft Word 97 or 2000 format. The .rtf (rich text format) can be read by many word processors. If you can't get the download from my site, let me know and I'll email it to you.
[@Jim] We'll talk about character-building in another session. For now, let's look at world building.
[@Jim] In the world building files there is a section that says "Defined cultures: rich/poor, literate/illiterate, north/south, east/west, mountain/valley, etc."
[@Jim] It goes on to provide blanks you can fill in for details for use in your stories: Culture A, Subcultures 1, 2, 3, 4, Culture B, etc. I can't tell you how to fill in the blanks, but I can point you to some resources that may give you inspiration and ideas as to how to work rich cultural details into your stories.
[@Jim] A web search for the word "culture" yields some interesting results if you pick your sites carefully. I'm going to list seven such sites that I thought had some use, though I haven't investigated each thoroughly. Some may be more useful than others. Please bare with me... one line per site, a final comment, and then Q&A.
[@Jim] Webster's World of Cultural Policy at http://www.wwcd.org/policy/policy.html may give you some ideas. They bill it as "An online resource center for the study of cultural policy from the perspective of cultural democracy."
[@Jim] Australian Key Centre for Cultural and Media Policy (Griffith University) at http://www.gu.edu.au/centre/cmp/ is billed as "Providing research, teaching and training programs to assist in developing informed and innovative cultural and media policies that are appropriate to our changing [times]"...
[@Jim] UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization site may offer inspiration: http://www.unesco.org/culture/
[@Jim] Institute for Community Arts Studies (ICAS) - "dedicated to research, professional education, and community programs concerned with public understanding of the arts in a broad context and cultural policy." http://aad.uoregon.edu/icas/
[@Jim] International Network on Cultural Policy - "composed of a group of countries with an interest in preserving local and national cultures and in promoting culture as a key component of sustainable development." http://64.26.177.19/
[@Jim] Princeton University Center for Arts and Cultural Policy Studies - "aims to improve the clarity, accuracy, and sophistication of discourse about the Nation's artistic and cultural life." http://www.princeton.edu/~artspol/
[@Jim] I think the key concept to keep in mind when researching these and other sites is "How can I use this information in my story, to make it a better, richer story for my fans?" (or fans-to-be). Do that and you'll enliven your story by incorporating cultural elements that make it more believable to your readers.
[@Jim] Make your readers say, "Oh, yeah! Wow!" -- Comments or questions?
[Robert] I'm currently working in my space series and developing cultures that aren't based on agri or hunting economies, very post industrial with robotic production of almost everything. They vary a lot in their needs but the environment's harsh deep space.
[Robert] When you're extrapolating future cultures off completely different economies, what are some good resources for outside guesswork on economic and social trends and new ideologies?'
[@Jim] Look at the history of your race(s)... compare to our own... in many parts of the world, we are an industrial culture... but what are our roots? What are your alien culture's roots?
[Robert] The space series - human us and now - it's just set farther in future with post industrial conditions and a diaspora that sends any nut with a thousand followers to found a planet. So I want variety of concepts and then test them in stories.
[Robert] They could seem to make sense or not but if there's a way to write it up that the people in it could live with, it gets a planet on the map or some ships in the traveling spaceliving culture.
[Anne_Marble] Scandinavians still have sayings that say "the gods" instead of "God," even though they no longer worship Odin. I'm sure that shows up in a lot of other places as well.
[@Jim] Okay... they can trace their oriigins back to Earth then... and the hunter-gatherer and agrarian cultures they sprang from.
[Robert] Retro ones are easy. I think the Amish planet's going to be indistinguishable from an Amish town and culturally stable.
[@JimMills] (Sorry... got disconnected...)
[@JimMills] Did that answer your query, Robert?
[Robert] Pretty much, except I hoped you'd have a site for 'weird social experiments and cultural ideas that are a little fringe today but might work in a story'
[@JimMills] It ~is~ possible for a people to forget their origins in the sweep of time... you could try searching for such a site, but I don't know of any offhand.
[@JimMills] It ~is~ possible for a people to forget their origins in the sweep of time... you could try searching for such a site, but I don't know of any offhand.
[Robert] I'm more thinking not of forget their origins but slant their history heavily the way Utopia did in Raven Dance.
[@JimMills] That could happen as a matter of the rulers writing the histories...
[@JimMills] Certain things get lost because they aren't well-recorded.
[@JimMills] More questions?
[Anne_Marble] Do you have any recommendations for economics links? After reading "The Economist," I realized that so many events stem from economics. We just don't always know it at the time. Yet it's hard to find easy references.
[@JimMills] You could try a web search on the different search engines, looking for different phrases.
[@JimMills] I'm afraid that's the best I can give you at this time. Sometimes you need to be inventive in picking which words to search.
[Anne_Marble] Economics doesn't show up in fantasy novels too often, does it?
[Robert] It does in the good ones, but not explicated.
[@JimMills] No... neither does diplomacy... wolves or otherwise...
[Julia_Pass] Try looking up the Great Depression...I learned more about economy in a couple class periods being taught about the Great Depression than I learned anywhere else.
[@JimMills] Sounds like a good idea... thanks, Julia!
[@JimMills] More questions?
[Anne_Marble] Hmmm, a fantasy novel about a depression...
[@JimMills] That could be interesting...
[Robert] Anne, that would be so neat! There were periods like that in medieval history too, caused by king's ransoms or Crusades that didn't win.
[@JimMills] More questions?
[@JimMills] The next World Building Course session will be in three weeks, on January 27th, 6 p.m. Eastern US time, here in Conference Room 1. That session we will talk about languages.
[@JimMills] Just as cultures differ, so do the languages spoken. Do your characters all speak the same lingo? Or do they sometimes have trouble talking to each other?
[@JimMills] Adding this element to your world building can enhance the believability and wonder of your stories.
[@JimMills] Last chance for more questions... [g]
[Robert] I was waiting for someone else to ask, but since you mention it - customs seem rooted in religious assumptions and old precedent as much as in economics.
[kiarlie] no questions here! too busy sneezing and coughing to actually think!
[Deedlit] no questions here, head far too frazzled
[Robert] When you're cobbling up new cultures, what customs would you think of varying to give a fictional culture uniqueness?
[Anne_Marble] The cannibal orcs versus the vegetarian elves. ;-]
[@JimMills] Religions develop as survival mechanisms... telling people how to behave so as to preserve a way of life. Religion, like culture, will be based on economic influences... what do the people have to do for food, shelter and protection?
[@JimMills] These are the basic needs of a primitive culture... and they grow and evolve from those beginnings.
[@JimMills] Renaissance, industrial and technological cultures, at least on our world, all came from these beginnings.
[Robert] Is what you're really saying that in any fictional culture it helps to go all the way back to the roots and beginnings of it?
[@JimMills] Yes, exactly. A colony on another world would face similar problems to what the colonists faced in America... or other colonial lands. They only brought so much with them... they had to grow or manufacture everything else.
[@JimMills] Every culture came from someplace... it has a history... knowing that history will give you reasons for the way things are now... and add believability to your stories.
[Robert] And in space they are as dependent on machines as an agrarian culture on the land...
[@JimMills] Yes... or on a new world... what if the machines fail? What if they're cut off from the mother planet? They better learn how to farm and hunt and build their own stuff.
[Robert] That's where I think a basic difference lies between Nomads and Colonists - the Colonists might simplify their tech and the spacer types would be more concerned with fixing the machines and using robot labor to build more.
[Anne_Marble] That's why I never bought into the Star Trek doctors who say "Euwww, doctors used to cut into people with knives." What do they do if the equipment doesn't work?
[Robert] Yeah, Anne - I could believe a patient saying that, but not a doctor.
[Anne_Marble] Is this an example of religion as survival mechanism? It's said that in India, cows are sacred because in the farming areas, they need oxen to do the plowing. If they started eating steak, they would not be able to grow enough food. Thus people who say "Why don't they just eat steak?" don't really understand the bigger picture.
[@JimMills] They addressed that in one episode, Anne... Dr McCoy had to operate the 'old' way...
[Robert] Anywhere the climate stank in the ancient world, Hospitality was sacred and you had to put up the stranger for the bad season, the whole season if he came to your door without trying to kill you.
[@JimMills] Well, maybe... but it got out of hand, didn't it? They have more cows than any other nation on Earth... a surplus... and they can't change because the religion says they're sacred.
[@JimMills] (That was to Anne's query...)
[Robert] Sometimes I think of things like that as path dependent - an immediate solution to a problem becomes tradition and then it's what's done whether it really works well or not.
[Anne_Marble] Some of those traditions become problems when cultures meet modern innovations. In some societies, a simple change like screen windows created increases in populations. (Trying to figure out how this would work in fantasy...)
[Jim] Yes... Curing disease (by keeping the bugs out) is desired, but it can cause repurcussions... more people, more food needed... etc.
[Robert] Contraception's a major change, because overpopulation hit countries even in the middle ages, even in the ancient world. Their usual solution was 'raise an army and take someone else's land.'
[Jim] Those two-legged predators I mentioned...
[Robert] Right. And things like mass human sacrifices may also have been a reaction to crowding.
[Julia_Pass] Wow...I never thought of it that way, Robert.
[Jim] Maybe... as to how it could work in fantasy... if a high wizard or priest came up with a cure-all to prevent diseases, then people would live much longer... but still keep breeding... you can see where that idea goes...
[Anne_Marble] That could result in an attempt to kill off all the wizards.
[Robert] Or the one that invented effective contraception would cause a shift toward more humane ethics by relieving the pressure, but other places that didn't like the idea would breed a lot, become aggressive raider in vaders.
[Jim] A mage could hate bugs and make a spell to keep all bugs at least 100 miles away... what effects would that have on the ecology?
[Robert] Rotten for the crops considering your symbiote bugs are gone too.
[Jim] Bugs are needed for devouring dead animal carcasses, fertilizing plants, etc. If the bugs go, the plants die, followed by the animals...
[Anne_Marble] No birds. There was a pope who hated getting woken up by nightingales, so he ordered someone to kill are the nightingales in the Vatican garden. I think the population never recovered.
[Jim] We're all interconnected... all living species...
[Jim] Those nightingales that survived learned not to live in that area... they went elsewhere...
[Robert] And that is a modern ethic that modern readers would respond to wholeheartedly, facing a summer with fewer songbirds in their gardens.
[Jim] Any more questions?
[Jim] Next class on January 27, 2002... see you all then! Thanks for coming!
[Julia_Pass] Bye.
[Robert] See you then! Thanks for a great class! Bye
World Building Course Transcript 01-27-2002: Languages
January 27 2002, 7:15 PM
<Robert> Hi, Jim!
<@Jim> Hi, Robert!
<Robert> I noticed the post on Main Discussion! Thanks for posting it or I would have forgotten.
<@Jim> You're welcome...
<Robert> Ari, get off my desk.
<@Jim> lol... Robert... did you post the transcript from the mythology class?
<Robert> I mailed it to her.
<Robert> I posted the one for my Prolific Workshop though. I figured she might want to edit her own transcript.
<@Jim> k... Hi, Yvonne!
<Robert> Hi Peggy! Long time no see...
<P_Kurilla> Nice sketch. <g>
<Yvonne> Hi, I've got snacks and everything. I'm set.
<Robert> Cool! I've got a large piece of half-raw meat with grease!
<@Jim> lol... pass 'em around, Yvonne... Hi Peg!
<Yvonne> Doritos for everyone!
<Robert> Doritos gooood... chips one of the four food groups!
<Robert> Salties, Sweets, Greasies and Alcohol
<Yvonne> No alcohol for me. CHOCOLATE!
<Robert> Chocolate can be substituted for alcohol, so can coffee. Erm, maybe that should be Substances.
<Yvonne> Or Pure Decadence
<P_Kurilla> Yeah, Robert, found out I can't do chat and upload from the Alpha Smart at the same time.
<P_Kurilla> On the other hand, I did upload 12K words.....
<P_Kurilla> Hi, Jim.
<Robert> Yeah. That's a lot, Peggy! Coool...
<@Jim> We'll get started in a few minutes... allowing some time for others to arrive. Tonight we'll be covering World Building Class 7 - Languages and using them in your stories.
<P_Kurilla> Looking forward to Languages....
<Robert> I am too...
<Robert> Ari has decided that in the world he's building, the domesticated humans are bathed ritually in coffee when they use printers.
<P_Kurilla> LOL Robert. Do the printers get baptized as well?
<Robert> Thankfully no, at least this cat's an editor and didn't get it on the manuscript. He knew it for a rough ms. though and made me chase the pages.
<P_Kurilla> AFK for a sec....
<Robert> And we had a minor disagreement on whose sticky notes those are.
<Yvonne> They're Ari's of course.
<P_Kurilla> Oh, but Robert, sticky notes on cat's paws are hilarious... Hello again, Yvonne.
<Yvonne> Hi
<Robert> It should have been obvious to me that sticky notes are cat sized pieces of paper while the big ones are mine. It's only fair. >^..^<
<P_Kurilla> ROFL
<Yvonne> See, you're catching on.
<Tallisinn> Hello everyone
<P_Kurilla> Hi, Tal.
<Robert> Hi Tallisinn!
<Robert> Vel was working on a little article titled "Worship All Cats, Human Scum" by Argent.
<Tallisinn> This is my first time... so excuse in advance any faux pas
<@Jim> Welcome, Tallisinn.
<Anon_3> Ooh, I like that title
<Tallisinn> lol love the title
<Robert> I know. It's great. I keep bugging Velvet to finish her "translation"
<CatsbHey_> Hey Tal!!
<Tallisinn> Hi there Cat !!!
<P_Kurilla> Hi, Cat.
<Catsb> Hey P K!
<Robert> Hi, Cat
<Catsb> Hey Robert!
<@Jim> Welcome, Catsb...
<Catsb> This is my first time chatting at the Holly Lisle site, good to see you all!
<Robert> Nice to meet you, you're in the right place!.
<P_Kurilla> You picked a great time to join in, Cat... Jim does great classes. (Or at least the transcripts are great... My first of his classes)
<@Jim> Ok... let's get started. I'll present some material for your consideration and we'll have Q&A after. Ready?
<P_Kurilla> Ready.
<Catsb> Cool, I'm looking forward to it
<Tallisinn> yep
<@Jim> World Building Class 7 - Languages and using them in your stories.
<@Jim> Let's discuss, briefly, the theory of how languages evolve (evolved). Someone decided to start naming things: rock, tree, bush, etc. Or, more likely, ok, ee, ush, etc.
<@Jim> Individuals had names, as did places: cave, home, bend in river, big valley.
<@Jim> As names became more numerous, so did the variety of words. Action concepts were expressed: hunt, forage, cook, eat. Languages took on syntaxes.
<@Jim> Nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, pronouns, prepositions... of course, it would be some time before we codified the rules of the language.
<@Jim> But how do languages evolve over time? Old English became Middle English became Modern English. Dialects emerged in varying forms in different areas.
<@Jim> Moreover, different languages emerge. It is likely that the differing languages evolved independently in far-flung regions.
<@Jim> This is evident by the differences in languages. Some are familiar with other tongues. Of those tongues, many are similar and others are not.
<@Jim> Some are syntactically different: noun-verb versus verb-noun, adjective before or after the noun it modifies, etc.
<@Jim> Some languages differ even more, where phrases are constructed in manners very different from English -- Arabic, for example.
<@Jim> In Arabic and similar languages, phrases are constructed very differently than in English and other largely latin-based languages.
<@Jim> On Friday, Sept. 1, 2000, I attended a seminar on Alien Languages at Chicon, chaired by Stanley Schmidt, editor of Analog -- my notes are on the transcripts board.
<@Jim> In that seminar they pointed out a number of interesting things that we should consider in constructing languages for our stories.
<@Jim> For example, Reverse engineering is not a really good idea; it is thinly disguised to a linguistically knowledgable person. You need to invent the basic structure and use only the words you need.
<@Jim> This is what Tolkien, a linguist by training, did in constructing the elven and other languages he used in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
<@Jim> Can beings in your world communicate by other than the spoken language? Telepathically, by scent, gesture, infrared, virus, etc. If so, you need to define how.
<@Jim> You don't need to know the language to use it for a character. Translating into English, the tone, rhythm and cadence can come through and give the reader the feel you want.
<@Jim> But how much do we leave in, and how much do we take out? You have to make that determination. Speculation is that Tolkien's trilogy would never sell in today's markets, in part because the alien languages would be deemed to overwhelm the reader.
<@Jim> Dolphins communicate in stereo and with a much broader spectrum than human beings. They also use sonar to sense their environment.
<@Jim> When communicating, they could do so in pictures, almost like telepathy, with their sounds painting a picture for those who hear it.
<@Jim> Niven suggests that we are used to talking to aliens. Men and women have different mentalities. We have animals, pets and plants that we talk to. We talk to machines.
<@Jim> Languages change over time. Dialects emerge. How did the language change with the species' history?
<@Jim> What does the culture consider taboo? In English, we have curse words about two subjects. Other cultures have different words and different taboos. We write in English, and these concepts can be hard to convey.
<@Jim> What if you have a language and a religion where the "world" is male, neuter or hermaphrodite?
<@Jim> Use brief sections of the language just to give a flavor. You will lose your reader if they have to translate a lot.
<@Jim> If you have a concept that takes two pages to explain it, then explain it once. Thereafter use their word for it.
<@Jim> In our stories, tiny suggestions of a language -- a few words here or a sentence there are fine, but don't go overboard.
<@Jim> It does pay to know what the dialects or languages would be like, how the grammar works, and what sounds the native speakers can or cannot make comfortably in casual conversation.
<@Jim> This will allow you to hint at accents, suggest alien grammars, and whisper of far away places and foreign climes -- without choking the reader on them.
<@Jim> What you need to do in terms of world building, is list and define the languages of your world. You needn't go overboard. Define those that will most affect your story.
<@Jim> Name each language and dialect used, who speaks each, sounds it can and cannot make, accents, grammars, etc.
<@Jim> If you've downloaded my http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip file (it's case sensitive, so cut and paste is recommended), you'll find that part of the contents of the world building file gives you a fill-in-the-blanks format for defining these details.
<@Jim> Comments or questions?
<P_Kurilla> Oh, lord... where do I start?
<Robert> I think that for reader ease in reading it aloud, it's easier to lose a phoneme than add one like the apostrophe in McCaffrey's dragonrider names.
<P_Kurilla> Okay, brief set-up... The world I'm building for my next project has five major countries and a handful of minor ones. How many base languages do I need?
<P_Kurilla> <---hates apostrophes, even in Vulcan female names.
<@Jim> True, Robert, but Anne kept it simple, following a standard pattern. Her's were not too hard for the reader.
<Robert> You could do related ones, Peg like the Latin languages are comparable eough my Italian grandmother spoke Italian to Mexican landscapers who understood her.
<@Jim> Peg... that depends on other factors. How far separated are the countries? How diverse are their cultures?
<P_Kurilla> Right, Robert, and I have two countries that used to be one (a disaffected group left), two others are different descendants of a common root, and the last is a stand-alone, culture-wise
<Robert> Then the languages could show that and save you a lot of infodump! OR shorten it.
<P_Kurilla> I plan at this point for the two-that-were-one have essentially the same language (like the US and UK), but I'm not sure about the others.
<@Jim> It's likely that the stand-alone one has a different language that evolved over time, possibly from another source than the other countries.
<P_Kurilla> Okay... that's reasonable. Will make them a bit more insular, then.
<Tallisinn> Would that not depend on the history or those countries... how isolated they were from each other both geographically and culturally?
<Robert> And that some accent thing in one oor the other of the split cultures works to distinguigh them. Local slang only takes a little while. British and American swear words are so different Brit swearing sounds clean.
<@Jim> The others could have similar language but different dialects or accents, too. It's really a matter of how you want to handle it in your story.
<P_Kurilla> Bloody right it does! LOL
<P_Kurilla> So, it looks like I need three base languages, one completely separate, and one that has diverged a bit into two different though similar languages (say Spanish and Italian)
<Robert> But that leads to this.. Jim, do you think embedding the history of the area and world into the language design is a major part of depth worldbuilding? Scaffolding readers don't see when the Morva say Vraka to mean vampire?
<@Jim> Yes, Robert. The languages need to be believable to the reader, and to show some pattern that they can say, "oh, yeah, I see."
<P_Kurilla> Here's a link I found by following one Damon suggested in his Vision article on languages....
<P_Kurilla> www.langmaker.com/m10102.htm (or html, my printer cut it off, so I'm not sure)
<P_Kurilla> This describes how to build a language just to create names for characters and places.....Useful, but it only scratches the surface of what Jim and Robert are talking about
<Robert> Damon is a resource! Damon and his langauages and studies are great!
<P_Kurilla> How about showing how languages diverge, Jim? Are there any patterns or rules?
<Robert> Years ago I saw "The Story of English" a total of three times till I moved where PBS wasn't showing it. They had segments on Trade Languages and Pidgin English
<P_Kurilla> Hm. Wonder if PBS.org has the transcript?
<Robert> Oh, I should check that out. I used to have it on tape. I treated it like a reference book because it was in so much depth and so well made!
<@Jim> I couldn't get that link to work, Peg... though www.langmaker.com/ seems to work ok.
<P_Kurilla> Jim, follow the langmaker.com link to the newsletter archives....
<P_Kurilla> That's where I found it, I think.
<@Jim> Patterns and rules? Well, it takes time... a lot of time... we only have Earthly languages on which to base our real life experiences.
<Robert> And Niven's examples. Cats can't pronounce most consonants but do understand English.
<P_Kurilla> Where are those, Robert?
<Robert> From this class - Jim posted that Larry Niven pointed out that men and women speak different languages and we communicate with animals.
<Catsb> Hey! I CAN pronounce most consonants!
<P_Kurilla> Oh. DUH. <smacks self in head> Hehe Catsb.
<Robert> Humans can't do all the cat gestures that are part of cat to cat language but understand them. Some scritches are Pidgin for head bump or hip bump greetings.
<Robert> So I use a lot of gesture and other signals in alien languages especially the farther they are from human, not the ones humans use instinctively.
<@Jim> Cats' tails are also part of their communication... they must consider us handicapped that we don't have a tail.
<P_Kurilla> Oh, that's good, Robert. Not to mention the differences in gestures between human cultures. The case that comes to mind is the "bird" being a good luck symbol somewhere....
<Robert> But bobtails and Manxes communicate without tails too.
<P_Kurilla> Tails are a big part of dogs' communication, too.... Along with ear position, forehead wrinkles, and such.
<Tallisinn> yeah but maybe they have a speech impediment
<P_Kurilla> LOL Tal.
<Robert> rofl
<@Jim> Human gestures... different... such as in Arabian cultures you never, ever touch anyone or eat with your left hand.
<Tallisinn> Yes that is right.
<P_Kurilla> Yes, Jim. Or in some cultures, you eat with only the first three fingers of your hand.
<Catsb> I wonder what happens when you're a leftie?
<Robert> It must be so hard for left handed Arabs...
<P_Kurilla> They train it out of you, Cat. Just like used to happen everywhere.
<@Jim> You train yourself out of it.
<@Jim> Exactly... and adding such things to your story can enhance it... especially if such details further your plot in some way.
<P_Kurilla> Hm... a gesture giving away a spy's true nationality?
<Robert> In America people are expected to smile way too much and it's considered appropriate to push aggressively into someone's comfort zone.
<P_Kurilla> And we shake hands when introduced, instead of bowing.
<Robert> I have been treated as foreign in many contexts because I don't do either of those things or put up with it.
<@Jim> I recall a movie where a german spy gave himself away by calling Sammy Davis a "Niger" -- mispronouncing the N-word.
<Robert> But I've also found it easier to make freinds with some Europeans and other foreign people if their culture wasn't that rude about body space - because without thinking about it I don't violate theirs and subliminal trust gets built.
<P_Kurilla> Interesting... the rule of double-consonant following a short vowel didn't get taught...
<P_Kurilla> That's an interesting observation, Robert. I hadn't thought about it that much except for when I meet Japanese people, I bow.
<P_Kurilla> Learned that when I studied aikido years ago....
<Robert> Right. We live in a multicultural world and that's pretty cool.
<P_Kurilla> The fun part will be creating a multicultural world for fiction. Too many worlds have everyone speaking the same language, etc.
<Yvonne> I thought that's what orcs were for.
<Robert> The orcs are the good guys in Witch King of Khazhevir.
<P_Kurilla> Hehe Yvonne.... I should have clarified... All the MC's speak the same language, even if they're from different villages or countries.
<Yvonne> Ah, the ubiquitous 'Common'
<Kim B> You have to be careful to only put as much in the story as is important to what's going on. Otherwise you're doing a lot of "see how cool my multicultural world is?" and no one really cares.
<P_Kurilla> Holly did some good things with her Arhel books, with the trade language and everything. In Star Trek, it's Federation Basic, yvonne. Sometimes Standard.
<Catsb> That's not too far-fetched, many people speak english that come from many different places
<@Jim> My personal opinion, fwiw, is that elves and orcs have been overdone. If you don't have a new twist on them in your stories, it'll be a hard sell to the editors.
<Robert> Story of English described English and Swahili as the two major absorptive trade languages in the world, picking up a little of everything they passed through.
<P_Kurilla> I agree with that, Robert. English adapts quickly. You know the international language of science is Broken English--because so many people speak it enough to communicate.
<P_Kurilla> Jim, there are NO elves, orcs, dwarves, trolls, or other common fantasy critters in my world. Just don't piss off the fang-cats.
<Tallisinn> as well as the Air Lines
<Tallisinn> and internation air traffic control
<Robert> And the unique word the German scientist coined for the mcguffin goes into English verbatim or nearly so.
<P_Kurilla> English's big strong point is that it can convey a lot of information extremely quickly.
<@Jim> There are interesting cross-language communications, too. For example, if you say wocka-wocka-wocka to a Japanese, he knows you want to play PacMan.
<Robert> That makes sense!
<@Jim> Sounds interesting, Peg.
<P_Kurilla> Although Spanish has borrowed from English. The Spanish word for "jacket" is chaqueta, a homonym, or nearly so. LOL Jim.
<P_Kurilla> Jim, Just as an example, when I worked for a doctor, we had informational handouts for patients. The English version of one took one and a half single spaced pages, one inch margins.
<P_Kurilla> The Spanish version took two full pages with half-inch margins.
<Robert> Can absences of common words be as interesting to readers as coined words? What if a group of aliens or whomever did not have a word for "love"
<P_Kurilla> Good point, Robert.
<Tallisinn> now that is interesting
<Robert> But about fifty different terms for types of kinship that included birth order and how many generations...
<@Jim> Good question, Robert. That could also be a plot point.
<P_Kurilla> Or how about sub-dividing, or getting specific. The difference between eros and agape, or the difference between chronos and kairos.
<Catsb> I've read something recently that had a people who had no word for love, closest word in their language was honor. Can't remember what bookit was though.
<Tallisinn> Or how about eskimo's that have 50 some words for snow
<Robert> StarDoc - that's the Jorenian pattern!
<P_Kurilla> Right.
<P_Kurilla> LOL Robert... I had read it too and couldn't remember where.
<Catsb> Yes, that's it Robert!
<Robert> Sheila had her heroine Cherijo fall in love and marry one!
<P_Kurilla> <whispers> I didn't like Kao that much... no wonder I forgot.
<Robert> I liked Kao. He was understandable to me. So was Duncan at times.
<Catsb> LOL PK, you're secret's safe with us
<Catsb> Geez, your not you're
<P_Kurilla> I saw the potential to like Duncan in book one, need to read the others.
<@Jim> No it's not... this transcript will be posted and Sheila may see it.
<Robert> In fact heck, Duncan is a great example of "knows too many languages and most of them aren't human" with his sometimes brilliant social skills and sometimes abysmal lack of them.
<P_Kurilla> Jim--She already knows. ;P
<Catsb> I read the first two, got stuck on the third one, then had to take it back to the library so I never finished it.
<P_Kurilla> Yes, Robert.... Excellent point.
<Catsb> Ah well, nothing's truly secret these days
<P_Kurilla> Makes you wonder if all translators would be like that....
<Robert> Most of the worst annoying things Duncan does are based on weirdly alien concepts and habits of translators who don't want to offend anyone's customs.
<P_Kurilla> Jim, back to specific questions. In my current WIP, I have the characters doing magic--well, sort of. It's actually that they can do physics instinctively. I've been thinking of coming up with a different word for that than magic. Should I?
<P_Kurilla> Do physics = affect the laws of phsyics locally.
<@Jim> Yes, I think you should. Readers will expect certain things from "magic" and you want them to think along new lines.
<P_Kurilla> That makes sense. Thanks.
<Robert> One of those cases wehre "their word for it" may stick with fans like "laran" for Darkover psi phenomena.
<Robert> Fans know you need special blue McGuffin crystals from the fictional planet to get it to do anything spectacular.
<@Jim> Exactly, Robert!
<P_Kurilla> I hope I get a fan following like Darkover has....
<@Jim> So do we all, Peg... so do we all. LOL
<Robert> That itself may be a topic! What are the best uses for that half dozen alien words the average fan will memorize if they love the series?
<Tallisinn> nods in agreement
<P_Kurilla> <---- now thinks herself very clever for using XXX instead of magic. It'll be a simple search-and-replace once I create the name.
<Kim B> Too many can make a story too much work for people to keep up with. That's a fine line to walk.
<Robert> Short, easily pronounced but with variations like "eye" "eyeball" "eying" and so on.
<P_Kurilla> Very interesting topic, Robert. Do you really want fans coming up to you and spitting in your face because that's the way your characters do it?
<Robert> Actually with what I wrote they'll come up giving secret fan handshake gestures without touching and they'll wave fans around and bow.
<P_Kurilla> LOL Robert
<Robert> And if they dress up from the evil empire they'll pass notes with the chemical messages in the crunchy kibble field rations.
<Robert> Communication by condiments for the humanoid hive race. The idea women rule from the kitchen is LITERAL.
<Tallisinn> I think Kim is right though... you don't want to overload the story with them..they would lose power
<Catsb> Yes, I agree
<P_Kurilla> Tal, I hadn't planned to. Robert's suggestion (short, simple, but with variants) seems to be a good idea.
<Kim B> Guess you have to find just the right balance.
<@Jim> Actually, I borrowed that concept from Holly... and she probably got it from someone else...
<Robert> I try to think in terms of "if a dozen really nterested fans did a live action game, could they do fun costumes and neat in jokes easily on the cheap?
<Robert> So since fans aren't telepaths, they can put a few short videos with music in their Palms and use those for kelevree fans to show their mind shields.
<P_Kurilla> What would be the absolute basic words for a language, do you think?
<Tallisinn> one lanquage factor that I have pondered is what to use for sudden exclamations of suprise ... like "OH..#$#$#" or To @#$@#$ you will.
<P_Kurilla> Tal, you have to decide what topics are taboo in your culture, and build your curse words around those.
<@Jim> An interesting question. What did you come up with?
<P_Kurilla> In English, the taboo subjects are sex and defecation.
<Robert> Alien swearing is fun and a great place to use coined words. Jim's right. It's their taboos. You chicken eater!
<Robert> Calling someone a housetree on Piarra is either a compliment or insult depending on context.
<P_Kurilla> Jim, I read somewhere that RLH's Speedtalk is based on only 800 words of English, not counting prepositions and connectives.
<Tallisinn> LOL chicken eater..yeah I can I dentify...
<P_Kurilla> Not sure how it can do subtleties, but that might be a start....
<Robert> In a spacefaring culture the specific insult that means "sloppy maintenance" isn't just laziness but lethal laziness and suicidal inclination...
<P_Kurilla> I thought of bodily functions, household duties, job duties, religion or ritual words and concepts, government concepts.
<Kim B> If one side finds it offensive and the other finds it a cheezy saying [laughes], that can cause lots of intercultural problems for your storyline.
<P_Kurilla> Then also family relationships and non-family relationship.
<P_Kurilla> LOL Kim. Sure could.
<Robert> The term "father" doesn't translate well from Piarran because it's "part of the fertility cycle that supported the child telepathically" and not even necessarily gene donor.
<P_Kurilla> One of those other oddball tidbits is that most cultures tend to name themselves "the people" or "the ones" or "the chosen" in their native language... thus implying if you'r enot in that tribe, you're not fully human.
<Robert> Right. And lots of planets are just "Dirt" in their native language.
<@Jim> Good point, Peg. How arrogant of us.
<@Jim> LOL Robert! You borrowed that one from me!
<Tallisinn> Yes ... I recall from college days that the Cheyenne Indians name for Cheyenne meant Human being
<Robert> When I do "Magic in the Streets" with cat protagonists, "cat" is people and "humans" are large domesticates and lions, tigers etc are Giants.
<@Jim> But then, I borrowed it from another author!
<P_Kurilla> ROFL Jim.
<Robert> I think I got it from your source, Jim, it might've been Niven. I did that novel at the shelter.
<Catsb> Oh I love the idea of "cat" people!
<Kim B> Arrogance and self-esteem often hold hands.
<Tallisinn> LOL Yeah yeah we know...
<P_Kurilla> Very good point, Kim.
<Robert> To the point that I no longer really consider arrogance as annoying or threatening as excessive humility.
<@Jim> Any other world building questions?
<P_Kurilla> Robert, being excessively humble can also become a form of arrogance. I.e. I'm more humble than you.
<Robert> A lot of common phrases express culture. The greetings would be so relevant to express what those people think of self and other.
<P_Kurilla> Jim, I have enough now to keep me building languages for a week!
<Kim B> I think they'd bring different reactions from me. Arrogance makes me laugh at the person. Excessive humility makes me feel sorry for them.
<Robert> Yes, Peggy, so true!
<@Jim> lol Peg!
<Robert> Confidence gets mistaken for humility and leaving out ritual self-put downs can make people see you as arrogant.
<Tallisinn> I have found this very interesting and helpful Jim... I will be back
<P_Kurilla> Which segues into culture and identity and all that... Guess it just goes to show that it's all interconnected.
<Catsb> Me too!
<Kim B> I agree Kurilla
<Robert> That's where what Jim said about putting it into the phrases and word choices within English.
<@Jim> Peg makes a good point, Kim... if it's a cultural matter to be humble, then humility can become a competition.
<Kim B> Or can be viewed as weakness.
<Robert> Americans say "How are you?" and expect the little white lie "Fine" as response. This would be murder on a race that could not lie and had no concept of lying.
<P_Kurilla> Like in the movie "Liar Liar" with Jim Carrey. He had to tell the truth all day for one day.
<Robert> While "Good day" or "Good time of day" is just a small blessing.
<Catsb> If that were the case though, would they have a phrase like "how are you?"
<P_Kurilla> They might, Cat, ritually.
<Robert> Not if prying and gossiping was socially unacceptable.
<P_Kurilla> But probably not for general conversation.
<Kim B> That could be a trip if when asked that, they respond with this long tirade of things going on in their lives.
<Catsb> LOL, Kim, I was thinking the same thing
<Robert> I do that and it confuses people. It really confused them at the shelter.
<P_Kurilla> Yes. A visitor would learn very quickly NOT to ask that question... and would get very specific: "How is the injury on your arm doing?"
<Catsb> And if everybody gave a lengthy list of how they were REALLY doing, conversation wouldn't get very far
<P_Kurilla> Hehe Cat.
<Robert> Around here "How's your Writing or How's your WiP" is appropriate.
<Kim B> lol
<Tallisinn> lol
<P_Kurilla> What's the topic for the next worldbuilding class, Jim? And when is it?
<Robert> I think that might be part of the answer to how to get the feeling of language across. Spanish genders everything including things you wouldn't think of as being particularly male or femlae.
<Catsb> Good question
<P_Kurilla> There is no netural gender in Spanish, Robert.
<P_Kurilla> Mountains are female, so are tables...
<@Jim> The next one will be on Technology. Even if your story is set in ancient times, there is always some level of technology. Bronze vs. copper vs. iron, for example. Do your cultures have the wheel? Do they walk on foot or ride on beasts? You need to define these things and be consistent.
<P_Kurilla> Clothing seems to be divided, some male, some female.
<Kim B> If you don't know an item's gender in spanish, you default to male. I hear that's because women are less likely to be offended then men.
<Robert> Coool! Yeah, flint knapping is a technology.
<Tallisinn> Ohhh that sounds like a great topic... Is that next week ?
<@Jim> That will be in two weeks... Feb. 10th.
<Catsb> Sounds cool, when is it?
<P_Kurilla> Jim, before class, you might want to look at a book called Ancient Inventions. LOTS of interesting material on ancient technology.
<Tallisinn> ok... got it.
<P_Kurilla> Not sure of the reasoning, Kim, but yes, that's true. Just like a group of mixed-gender people is masculine.
<@Jim> I've heard of that book... Holly has it... I'll have to see if it's at the library.
<P_Kurilla> If not and your budget can stand it, it's well worth the purchase.
<Catsb> Me too
<P_Kurilla> If you can't get it, would you like me to cull some examples for class?
<Robert> It sounds interesting. Did it have diagrams and plans for building some of it?
<P_Kurilla> Some, Robert. And some photos.
<@Jim> That would be great, Peg!
<Tallisinn> That brings up the often quoted .."a highly advanced technology will appear to be magic..." etc etc....
<P_Kurilla> Okies, will do. <making note>
<Robert> Cool!
<Kim B> Cool...we can come away with our own mammoth trap? [kidding]
<@Jim> That's an Arthur C. Clarke quote, Tal...
<P_Kurilla> Yes, Tal, but we're talking things like the Ancient Egyptians had automatic doors.
<@Jim> ok... see you all in two weeks, then... hope you enjoyed the session!
<Tallisinn> *looks disappointed at Cat....* was hoping for mammoth steak.
<Robert> Holly and many others reverse the Clarke quote.
<P_Kurilla> Thanks, Jim.... See you on the 10th.
<Tallisinn> Yes I did Jim Thanks
<Robert> Thanks, Jim! See you on the 10th!
<@Jim> Night, everyone!
<Catsb> Awwww, it's ok Tal, just remember what happened to the Flintstones when the waitress puts that huge rack of ribs on the side of the car
World Building Course Class 9 Transcript - Sunday Mar. 16, 2002
March 16 2002, 6:39 PM
<@Jim> World Building Course, Class 9: Characters. I'm going to talk about two aspects of characters as they relate to world building: the characters in your writing and those behind your story.
<Gayle> okay...that's cool
<@Jim> Holly has an excellent article on "How to Create a Character" in the "How To" articles in the Writer's area (blue "Writers" button at top of menus) on the boards: http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/
<@Jim> I'm going to quote some excepts from Donald Maass's book, Writing the Breakout Novel, with permission of Writers Digest Books. Please consider part of this presentation a brief review of said book.
<@Jim> The characters in your stories must be larger than life. Most people in this world are indecisive and weak, at least as characters.
<@Jim> All stories are character driven, at least to an extent. The story with no characters is rare, and even then you can define the 'group' or the 'planet' or the 'whatever' as a character.
<@Jim> What holds your readers' interest? Most of the time the answer will be engaging and sympathetic characters, and sometimes not-so-sympathetic characters, but they're still larger than life.
<@Jim> What is larger than life? In Writing the Breakout Novel, Donald Maass says, "It is the actions of a person that make it [the story] memorable or not. Great characters rise to the challenge of great events."
<@Jim> He goes on: "In life and in fiction, when people act in ways that are unusual, unexpected, dramatic, decisive, full of consequences and are irreversible, we remember them and talk about them for years.
<@Jim> "Seemingly ordinary characters can stay with us, too, but usually only when their actions are 'out of character'." (I highly recommend this book, by the way, in case you couldn't tell <g>.)
<@Jim> Larger than life characters have strengths and triumphs. They also have weaknesses that let your readers identify with those characters.
<@Jim> Larger than life characters have inner conflicts that trouble them and that they struggle with. Conflict is essential to plot -- and to great characters.
<@Jim> Does your protagonist have strong inner conflict or conflicting sides? Don't make it easy to reconcile, either. Grip your reader with strong, deep characters.
<@Jim> Larger than life characters are self conscious, meaning they have a sense of self-regard. Their feelings matter to them. They embrace life and do not dismiss what they experience.
<@Jim> Larger than life characters take themselves seriously. A compelling hero makes the reader feel his or her emotions right along with them, and wonder about their action afterwards.
<@Jim> Maass goes on to talk about other aspects of character development and what makes characters memorable and compelling: wit, witticism, dark heroes, sacrifice, forgiveness, etc.
<@Jim> You don't often meet people who are decisive and opinionated, but the best characters are exactly that. List your story's characters and give them strong opinions and deeply held beliefs.
<@Jim> Enough about your main characters -- this is a world building course, not a character building course. What about the characters behind the story?
<@Jim> I mean the characters that may or may not be mentioned by name in the story, but whose actions affect story to one degree or another.
<@Jim> Who were your characters' parents, assuming they had some? Who were their siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends? Is your character an orphan? Who raised him or her?
<@Jim> Who taught him or her about life, how to survive, right and wrong? Each character should have a history that you know about, even if it never gets mentioned.
<@Jim> I can't write it for you -- that's your story -- I can only tell you that you have to do it in order to have depth and background in your story. Your readers will sense it and thank you for it.
<@Jim> You'll do a lot of world building that won't make it into print (unless you become very famous and publish your notes, like the Tolkien family did.).
<@Jim> Your world may be fantasy, science fiction, Earth, Mars or Karaca (that last one's one of mine, by the way -- world building for a story yet to be written.).
<@Jim> No matter where your story is set, you have history. All those people and their cities, towns and other habitations didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
<@Jim> People (men, elves, ogres or whatever) built them. People spent years, maybe centuries or eons working to make your setting what it is in your story.
<@Jim> Those are the people behind your story. They don't have to be as well defined as the characters in your tale, but you should know who did what, at least to an extent.
<@Jim> Even if your story is set on Earth, what's different about the history of the world? You need to define it.
<@Jim> Is your story set in modern day or historic Earth with no changes in history? What about the fictional town your character is from or lives in?
<@Jim> It should have a history, and people of its own who worked to build it. Or is your story set in a real town? Modern day Chicago, for example?
<@Jim> Well, be careful how you use real live people in your stories. Mayor Daley might not like it if you turn him into some kind of demon, and he might send lawyers after you.
<@Jim> If your story is set in modern day or recent history and a real town or city, you still have to have behind-the-scenes characters that affect your main characters.
<@Jim> The deceased favorite uncle who greatly influenced your MC, for example. You need to know something about him and how he affected your character.
<@Jim> If you're writing fantasy or SF on a world (or worlds or spaceships) wholly of your own making, you need a history for that world, its nations, cities, towns, etc.
<@Jim> No one lives in a vacuum, not even fictional characters. Ok, having just typed that, I think of my character, Liten, MC of my novel The Light. Good example.
<@Jim> Liten is an energy being -- think miniature sun, about three of four feet across, spherical, and he lives in space, traveling between star systems and even galaxies at faster than light speeds.
<@Jim> He lives in a vacuum most of the time. He also has family and friends -- the solar energy beings are somewhat social and travel in groups, usually.
<@Jim> It would be a pretty boring story if he just wandered from star to star and never had any interaction with anyone.
<@Jim> Liten loses his family to those who hunt their kind. He escapes and flees, but he flees in order to try to find help against the dark spheres -- so that he can rescue his friends and family.
<@Jim> Liten's people visit planets and observe planet-bound life forms on occasion. They can change their forms to mimic those life forms.
<@Jim> Liten comes to Earth -- and gets involved with human beings.
<@Jim> The point is that even though Liten lives in a vacuum (literally), from a story standpoint, he does not exist alone. He interacts with other characters.
<@Jim> And his people have a history. I don't infodump that history in a prologue or in chapter one -- in fact, it's not really mentioned in the novel at all.
<@Jim> But I know what it is. I know why these creatures exist and their purpose in the vastness of creation.
<@Jim> I know the history of the black spheres, what they are, where they came from and why they hunt Liten's people.
<@Jim> And I'm not telling. Not yet. If the book sells and I write a sequel, maybe Liten will discover his hidden heritage. Then you'll see it when I show it to you. < g >
<@Jim> I won't give any more spoilers, in case I ever finish the story(ies) and you want to read it (or them). Some chapters are up in my forum if you're interested -- these chapters are subject to changes.
<@Jim> The point is that your world, wherever and whenever it is, has a history. Characters made that history, or at least the most interesting parts of it.
<@Jim> On Earth there have been many historic figures -- Alexander, several Caesars, Cleopatra, Hitler, Napoleon, to name a few from an enormous list.
<@Jim> You need to know the history of your story's world, continent, nation, city, town, the people therein, etc.
<@Jim> It won't come out in your story, except for some bits and pieces. You don't need to spend years and years on it like Tolkien did.
<@Jim> You have to know when to stop world building and when to start writing. You can always go back and fill in gaps as needed.
<@Jim> But you do need to spend some time on characters in your story's history. Your story will be deeper and richer for it.
<@Jim> Comments or questions?
<Robert> This is where I sometimes create backfiles. For this novel I just started I spent most of a week doing an outline - and scrapped the outline and treated it as an unwritten prequel.
<@Jim> Hi, Anon_101... type your name in the "Name" window and join us!
<Gayle> I know that for my fantasy story I did real basic worldbuilding and let the history come while I was writing...
<@Jim> There you go, Robert... that's one way to create your backstory about the history that occurred before your story.
<@Jim> That works, too, Gayle... my point is that you did that history... who was famous, what countries, etc.
<Robert> Characters do really stupid things and countries and religions do too sometimes.
<Gayle> however, I will need to go back and create a lot more 'stuff' now that it's in progress.
<@Jim> That can work, too... you can add 'stuff' in revision.
<Gayle> I know that for Tyrella I'm to the point where I need to create food, drinks, etc before the next dare...since I will need it for Conflict
<Robert> Well, what you said about the characters that don't come onstage - they show up again every time another character does -the new one had parents, a nasty schoolteacher, a different country to grow up in...
<@Jim> Yes, but the characters that don't come on stage may get refered to now and then... though you will probably do more in backstory than you use in dialogue or text.
<Robert> That's sort of what I meant, what might show is only that new character flinches at the sight of chalked mathematical symbols.
<@Jim> lol... that's a good one... good character building quirk.
<Robert> Especially if in a later scene he sweats and has to remember what they were for some critical plot point.
<@Jim> That would be a good tie-in... have some minor plot point that requires him to remember some algebra or trig or calc.
<Robert> And let him fail and they have to try something else. That's something I keep trying to pound myself with - let them be stupid, let them screw up!
<@Jim> Well, you have to be careful with that -- don't make him too stupid... screw-ups are ok... they make him human.
<Robert> They screw up in their own ways. A char. with a big conscience will get too rigid.
<@Jim> Gayle - why foods and drinks for conflict? Do they have a food fight?
<Gayle> no...I have them eating in an eatry...and a couple of times they are ordering food and drink...some of it I have but still need a little more
<@Jim> "The bartender threw the mug of Chumble, hitting the dwarf on the nose, which only served to make the dwarf angrier."
<@Jim> Ahhh... so it's really for color... where does the conflict come in regarding the food?
<@JimMills> (lost my connection... bak...)
<Gayle> Jim...the name of my story is 'Conflict'
<@JimMills> Oh! Is see!
<@JimMills> ::slaps forehead::
<@JimMills> k... any more questions?
<Gayle> no...it's an honest mistake, Nathan said during the class this morning "momma, momma, their talking about your story, they're talking about conflict"
<Robert> lol Gayle - that's hilarious and too cool! Tells you you've got a great title there!
<@JimMills> LOL... maybe when you refer to it by name you should put it in quotes... <G>
<Gayle> I'll remember that next time...
<@JimMills> How old is Nathan?
<Gayle> 12 and a half...that half is real important to him...
<@JimMills> lol... be a teen soon. <g>
<@JimMills> Tell him the class said "Hi, Nathan!"
<Gayle> I was surprised when Holly asked him to be a junior moderator...he's the youngest one...I was also 'proud'
<Gayle> He'll be taking the next round of world building (If he gets up in time that is.)
<@JimMills> Cool... <g> (shows how much attention I've been paying! I completely missed the connection!)
<@JimMills> Speaking of the next round... this is the last class in the series... I'm starting it over again on March 30th (I think... need to check Calendar) at a new time... 10am EST... so that those in Asia can, I hope, participate.
<Robert> That's a cool idea.
<@JimMills> It may get adjusted if the folks in Asia and Australia tell me another time is better... so keep checking the calendar.
<Gayle> I'll make sure he does...check the calendar that is...
<@Jim> Any world building questions? Any at all?
<Gayle> none that I can think of at this point in time
<Robert> No, the course was great and I have to thank you, Jim. It's included so much and I found the files for character and world building helpful too!
<Gayle> Yes, I definitely appreciated the worldbuilding pages that you had up for downloading...
<@Jim> <g> Glad they helped... they're based on some of Holly's articles.
<@Jim> Glad I could be of some help... thank you all for attending. See you around the boards! Take care, good luck, and keep writing!
World Building Course - Class 1 Transcript - March 30, 2002
March 30 2002, 9:09 AM
[@Jim] Welcome to World Building 101. This course is a series of classes, to be presented over a number of weeks and covering a variety of topics related to world building in general.
[@Jim] Normally we will meet every other Sunday for these classes, but there will be some exceptions due to real life commitments on my part. These will be noted on the calendar.
[@Jim] The first exception is April 13th. There will be no world building class that day. The calendar reflects this (or it will soon). The next class will be in 4 weeks on April 27th.
[@Jim] I plan to follow a format where I present a brief lecture on the topic of the day, mostly garnered from my readings on the topic(s) and my own personal experiences as a writer.
[@Jim] After the lecture, we'll go to questions and answers. Please hold questions for the end. If this works for all of you, great.
[@Jim] If not, I'm open to suggestions for ways to improve my presentations. I'm cutting-and-pasting text I typed up earlier, so hopefully this won't take too long. Let's get started.
[@Jim] Class 1: Why world build? The answer is to give your readers a sense of wonder, a suspension of disbelief, and to keep them reading (and buying) your work, preferably story after story ad infinitum.
[@Jim] You want to develop your world so as to fascinate the readers. This applies to fantasy, science fiction, other genre and even mainstream -- world building applies to all writing.
[@Jim] In fantasy and science fiction, you want a sense of otherworldliness that will make your reader say, "Cool - I wish I could see that!"
[@Jim] In other genre or mainstream, you want your setting to support your story. You may draw on a place you know well, research it, or you may make it up.
[@Jim] Either way, you want to give your readers something other than their own back yards in the way of setting.
[@Jim] Readers read to escape their worlds, even if the story is set somewhere not too far away. It's still not their backyard.
[@Jim] Or, if it ~is~ their backyard, you had better get the facts straight. I have stories that are, in part, set in San Francisco.
[@Jim] One critiquer here on Holly's site pointed out a flaw in my story based on setting. I corrected it, so it will be right when it sees print.
[@Jim] But had I not caught it, and readers hollered "That's wrong!" after it was printed, well... that's what world building is for (and critiques as well.).
[@Jim] So how do you go about it? First, you have to ask a few questions and make some very basic decisions.
[@Jim] These apply whether you're writing fantasy, science fiction, any other genre or mainstream.
[@Jim] They apply a little less if your story is set on Earth -- you don't find too many, if any, mainstream novels set on other worlds.
[@Jim] So the first question is: is your story set on Earth? Or is it set on an identical-to-Earth world?
[@Jim] If so, then you have simplified your world building a lot, at least as far as gravity, number of moons, how tides work, etc.
[@Jim] But if you set your story in London or New York City, you had better get the details right, or have a good explanation for why they're different (alternate history stories, for example), or your readers will shoot you down.
[@Jim] And, if your story is on Earth, you don't want to have to explain too many differences. What explanations you ~do~ give had better be in story context and not a lecture on your world building or alternate history.
[@Jim] Many writers on Holly's boards are fantasy and/or science fiction writers, so we'll dwell on that for a bit.
[@Jim] World Building must be in background. Few people will buy your book to read a treatise on how to build a better world. The Silmarillion only sold because The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings preceded it.
[@Jim] As Holly commented to me once, citing her editors' comments to her (I'm paraphrasing): your readers don't care about your story's worldbuilding; they care about your story's action.
[@Jim] But you need to work out some of the details in order to have a sense of believability in your world. You want your reader to believe that your world might really exist.
[@Jim] You *don't* want your reader to throw down your book in disgust, saying, "I don't buy that!"
[@Jim] This is true whether your story spans a globe, a continent, a country, a province, a city, a town, a block, or just a single room.
[@Jim] Skillfully done -- as background, not lecture -- world building imbues a sense of reality that carries your reader along and elicits a willing suspension of disbelief.
[@Jim] Readers expect research in a historical novel. They don't expect Rameses the second to meet queen Elizabeth, or Moses to be concerned about nuclear proliferation, so if you have things like that, there had better be some very good reasons.
[@Jim] In Fantasy and SF, readers expect not to have to deal with world-blasting lasers if the level of civilization is more or less present day. You have to have consistency in your world building.
[@Jim] Fantasy often deals with medieval-like settings and if this is the case in your work, the reader will be thrown out of the story if bad guy draws sword and good guy shoots him with a pistol.
[@Jim] But what if that's important to your story? If so, then you need to establish early that firearms exist as well as more traditional medieval weapons.
[@Jim] Then it's okay for our hero, Indi, to shoot the guy with the sword. See what I mean? (Raiders of the Lost Ark isn't a medieval story, but the idea is the same.).
[@Jim] I could cite other examples, but it all comes back to the sense of wonder and the suspension of disbelief. That has to be an integral part of your story if you want to hold your readers.
[@Jim] Don't bore your reader with big expository lumps. Research what you need to make your story sound believable, and keep it mostly in the background.
[@Jim] Let your characters communicate your world to the reader by acting it out as they move through your story. Your story must come first.
[@Jim] Be consistent. Use a few vivid details in your descriptions rather than a lot of generalities. A well thought out world generates such details automatically. But be consistent.
[@Jim] Fantasy and SF in particular deal with other worlds that are sometimes different from Earth. This is good, if you do it right and avoid the many pitfalls of storytelling.
[@Jim] One story that I can recall critiquing on this site (I don't remember who wrote it) dealt with people on a very arid world where water was a precious commodity. The environment deeply affected the story.
[@Jim] In this course, we'll talk about worlds in general -- how they compare to Earth and Earth-like environments in general.
[@Jim] In future classes, we'll discuss the sizes and heat outputs of stars, distance of planets from their suns, gravity, moons, tides, magnetic fields and magnetospheres, lengths of years and days and more.
[@Jim] Don't panic.
[@Jim] This isn't a physics class. I'm not here to teach you astromechanics. But if you want to keep a certain level of wonder and believability, you may need a little of this for your stories.
[@Jim] But we'll keep it minimal. Just enough to give you some background for your story. For those who want more hard science, we'll let you talk to Bob Billing and crunch numbers to your heart's content.
[@Jim] For me, I'll do the minimum necessary to get the story told. I can put things like orbital distances, rotations, solar output and so on into a spreadsheet and play with the numbers if I feel like it.
[@Jim] That sort of thing is coming up next class. In future classes we'll cover other topics like maps, inhabitants, cultures, measurement of time, languages, levels of technology, weather, writing for different climates, characters and putting it all together.
[@Jim] Now let's go to questions... anyone?
[ksej] I have a question
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Where do you start?
[@Jim] Start with the planet and work your way down... start with the story idea and world build around it.
[@Jim] Nick?
[ksej] how much do you need to build or research?
[ksej] I'm getting bogged down and deciding I need to know the soil type of an area where one scene takes place
[@Jim] That depends on the needs of the story... if, for example, you're building a new fantasy world, you'll have land and seas (maps), people and critters living there, a history, etc.
[silverfire] so, in other words, start with the idea of a society of magic users that is disrupted by new type of magic and then work out the details of the society?
[@Jim] Types of soil can vary... color and appearance, what crops they can grow in it, does it support grasses and herds, etc.
[@Jim] That works, Silver.
[silverfire] Like the history and other things of that nature, and if the world is the same as earth, basically, leave it alone?
[@Jim] Well, that depends on your story needs... if set on Earth, is it today, or 1000 years ago or 1000 years in future? What's different? Nothing? Ok... you still need to build your setting... a house, city or town or whatever.
[silverfire] when you, personally, write a story, do you work out all the details first or do you work out enough to get you started and then write? (and work out the rest later)
[ksej] oh, good question silver. I'd like to know that too
[@Jim] Your town will have its own history, and maybe some specifics to make it interesting. Me personally? I work out some first... for my current WIP, I did the map and the general history first.
[@Jim] The map is Pangaea... the world continent of 165 million years ago... and the history is an alternate Earth-like world where humans showed up about 1500-to
[@Jim] to 2000 years ago.
[silverfire] what bogs me down, I think, is that I get writing and then I hit a point, sooner or later, where I need worldbuilding and I haven't really done any.
[silverfire] and at that point, it's hard to switch gears, lol
[@Jim] That's ok, too... many folks world build very generally, vague ideas really... and fill in details as needed.
[@Jim] What you need to do is start a file (or files) with your world building notes... when you need them... and then refer to them as needed. That way you stay consistent.
[silverfire] true; there are different types of writing and worldbuilding--I just need to find out which one is best for me.
[@Jim] Holly has some excellent articles on world building ... http://hollylisle.com/fm... they may help you.
[@Jim] I also have some template files that I use to get started, based on Holly's recommendations... you can download them from http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip -- just save the file when it asks you to.
[@Jim] There are two files in the zip... in two formats for a total of 4 files. One is on world building and the other is on character building. I've found them useful and I hope they'll help you, too.
[silverfire] how does one keep the languages consistent? I tend to make up phrases in whatever fantasy language as I need them.
[silverfire] I know some writers go and actually construct the grammar and lexicon and all that, while others don't. I'm just wondering if there's a way to determine how much you need or not.
[@Jim] Think of English grammar... noun verb object. Some languages change that around or think of it very differently. You categorize your languages in broad terms... who speaks it in what areas, how did it develop, what's similar to neighboring languages, etc.
[@Jim] Then you work in more details...
[@Jim] How much you need is an individual call... it's your call... it's your story. Do as much as you feel you need... no more, no less.
[silverfire] so in other words, put my linguistic training to use
[silverfire] lol
[@Jim] Yep.
[silverfire] Unless I'm trying to write the next LotR, though, I think I probably won't want to or need to go too far down into the nitty gritty.
[@Jim] There are some notes from a seminar I attended on Alien Languages on the Transcripts board... you may find them interesting to read.
[silverfire] like, for instance, [p] alternates with [ph] in these environments
[silverfire] hmm--I may want to check that out, then
[@Jim] LotR wouldn't sell nowadays... too much world building exposition... and too much elvish language. If it wasn't a classic, you'd never see it.
[silverfire] yep
[@Jim] Editors today are very different from 50 years ago when Tolkien wrote.
[silverfire] true of a lot of older books--they moved at a slower pace, with longer paragraphs and sentences, as well
[@Jim] Very true. You have to keep up with what the readers and editors want today if you want to sell.
[silverfire] today's readers want a much faster read, in most instances.
[Typosaurus_Rxe] I just re-read LotR and I still found the world compelling
[silverfire] true; that just means that despite what the mainstream people think, stuff like that is still good writing
[@Jim] Yes, no doubt... it is compelling... but an editor today would look at it and wince.
[silverfire] yep, and not only that, most readers would look at the length of the book and wince
[@Jim] Mainstream people tend to think of all genre as trash...
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Like LotR is any worse than the Wheel of Time
[@Jim] Well, it is a trilogy. Six books in three volumes, really.
[silverfire] I can't imagine a reader new to Janny Wurts, for example, reading one of her Mistwraith series books (or whatever the series name is)
[silverfire] lol, Typo
[@Jim] Oh, imo, LotR is far superion to WoT.
[@Jim] Both sell well, however.
[silverfire] and, I didn't mean mainstream as in non-genre; as in "middle of the road, not pushing boundaries" thinking
[Typosaurus_Rxe] I quit reading WoT after about the third book, not that I didn't like them but out of shear exhaustion.
[silverfire] heh
[silverfire] and that's why new writers won't get books of that length published, probably
[silverfire] heck, my sister bogged down on Tad William's Otherland
[silverfire] which, while long, is nowhere near as long as WoT
[Typosaurus_Rxe] That's okay by me, I would catch old age and die if I tried to write a Wheel of Time sized work
[silverfire] lol
[silverfire] I didn't know you could "catch" old age
[@JimM] Even Tolkien didn't get LotR published as a 'new writer' -- he had at least The Hobbit first.
[silverfire] it's viral, then?
[@JimM] It's inherited, actually.
[@JimM] More questions?
[silverfire] yeah, from what I've heard, editors prefer to wait until an author has a fan base before launching any long books or series
[silverfire] not really; I think I had what few questions I had answered, lolů
[silverfire] -ů
[@JimM] True... though if they like your story, they'll usually sign for two books or an option on your next book. It's good business practice for them.
[silverfire] darn Italian keyboards
[@JimM] Any questions, Typo?
[@JimM] lol
[silverfire] not quite used to typing on 'em yet
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Can you treat the world like a character, impacting the action and growth of the characters and the story?
[silverfire] interesting way of looking at it
[silverfire] does that mean that the world can grow and change and mature over the course of the story?
[@JimM] Well, yes, you can ... characters change and they can change the world.
[@JimM] Yes... it can... depending on how you write it.
[silverfire] besides the obvious "world is changed by characters", that is
[silverfire] lol
[@JimM] Characters can certainly change the world as far as people are concerned... look at the impact Frodo had on the world by destroying the ring.
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Some of my favorite books have had worlds that had significant impact on the characters and the story
[@JimM] The world can change... earthquakes, etc.
[silverfire] of course, if you decide there is a "Gaia" figure . . . there's the world as a character, right?
[@JimM] Yep. And those can be very interesting stories, too.
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Dune for example is greatly affected by Arrakis being a desert
[@JimM] True. Very much so.
[silverfire] most of the time, though, for the world to have a serious impact on the characters, it needs to be a world that's foreign to the characters
[silverfire] it seems, based on all the stories of that nature I've read
[@JimM] Not necessarily... if you found yourself destitute the world of Rome would have a great effect on you.
[Typosaurus_Rxe] I was considering a project with a kind of ensemble cast. Someone would always be a stranger wherever they go
[silverfire] true, but Rome would be a strange world to me anyway
[@JimM] Or if you were back home and out of money, goods and a place to stay... that environment would have an effect.
[silverfire] true
[silverfire] but I'd also be in a different world--that of the homeless
[@JimM] But we tend to try to conquer our environment... and that's a story in itself.
[silverfire] it intersects with my old world, but is not the same
[@JimM] Well, true, but still in the same setting more or less.
[silverfire] sounds interesting, btw, Typo
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Different climates and weather patterns affect cultures. I was going to try to work things like htat into my project
[@JimM] Hmmm... amnesiac... always a stranger.
[silverfire] lol
[silverfire] or, even worse, the syndrome (I forget its name) where you cannot remember the present since whatever accident or whatever brought on the damage
[@JimM] Jehane is going to be doing classes on weather and climate as part of this world building course. Probably in a couple of months... you can see the last weather class on the transcript board.
[silverfire] you can remember the past clearly
[@JimM] Yeah... I've seen some documentaries about people like that.
[silverfire] strange thing is, you can actually learn new things without knowing that you learned them
[silverfire] like motor skills, or a new piano piece
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Memory is a funny thing
[@JimM] Yes... or relearn things you've learned a thousand times before but forgotten.
[silverfire] yep
[@JimM] Any more world building questions?
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Sudden loss of consciousness will often result in a loos of up to 30 minutes prior to the loss
[silverfire] you'd be wondering why you suddenly got gray
[Typosaurus_Rxe] How deep do you go with worldbuilding?
[silverfire] oh, oh , I know
[silverfire] it depends, right?
[silverfire] lol
[Typosaurus_Rxe] lol
[silverfire] j/k
[@JimM] Yes, it does... as deep as you need to go... you can start your story and realize you need more... or you can world build forever and never get to the writing.
[silverfire] might be fun, but not very productive
[silverfire] heh
[@JimM] Guess I got a little repetitive on the 'it depends' didn't I?
[silverfire] nah, not really--I was just joking around
[Typosaurus_Rxe] How close to editors or readers pay attention to your world?
[silverfire] so much of writing is "it depends"
[silverfire] um, it depends, I think
[@JimM] Every story is both like all others and unique at the same time...
[@JimM] Editors don't care much about the world building as a rule... they're interested in action, conflict and suspense.
[silverfire] sometimes when I'm reading, I pay closer attention to the world than I do at other times
[@JimM] ... and how well it will sell.
[silverfire] if the world is inconsistent, the readers will probably care, I think
[@JimM] Yes... and that's the whole point of world building... any inconsistencies have to be part of the story and explained...
[Typosaurus_Rxe] There have been books that it seemed the world was the fans favorite part
[silverfire] that's the main thing, isn't it? Is being consistent. It doesn't really matter how plausible the world idea is on its own; as long as it's consistent, readers will buy it.
[@JimM] Yes to both... but a world book isn't worth much without a compelling story.
[silverfire] like Darkover, you mean?
[@JimM] Yes... or Middle Earth, or Pern, or Matrin...
[silverfire] interesting world and society concept that lends itself to many stories
[Typosaurus_Rxe] I was thinking about Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books
[silverfire] ah
[@JimM] True... all you need do is come up with a fresh new twist and you can make a writing career.
[silverfire] yeah, the world there was interesting, but I didn't really care for those books too much
[silverfire] too depressing and the main character was a cad
[@JimM] They tended to be a bit on the dark side... but very interesting world building, no?
[silverfire] yes
[Typosaurus_Rxe] What I was thinking was that whenever I ran into a fan of those stories, the fan always raved about the setting
[silverfire] I liked Mirror of Her Dreams much better
[@JimM] Any final questions? I'll try to wrap up.
[silverfire] not that I can think of
[Typosaurus_Rxe] I quit after the first book because I didn't like anyone in it
[silverfire] at one point, the main character rapes someone and later, his daughter from that is all grown up and they fall in love
[Typosaurus_Rxe] But there are series where I have wanted more info about the world
[Jim] god disconnected again :-/
[Typosaurus_Rxe] w/b
[silverfire] lol
[silverfire] wb
[Jim] ok... Next time: How to apply astronomy, solar system planning and planetary planning to your fantasy or other story, assuming it's different from Earth. The physics of world building, but not too heavy on the science or math -- just enough to get the story background you need.
[Jim] That'll be in 4 weeks... same day and time.
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Glen Cook's Black Company series started with very sparse information about the places they went
[silverfire] A friend of mine, in my old writers group, was doing something based on a complex solar system, with two suns, where the planet orbited between them
[silverfire] the main overt story was about the impending loss of life due to passing too close to one of the suns
[silverfire] or something like that, lol
[Typosaurus_Rxe] Toward the end of the series, I feel like I have lived there
[Jim] I think we've discussed that sort of thing once or twice in these classes... more common in SF stories, but would make an interesting fantasy, too.
[silverfire] yeah, I can see that
[Jim] Ok... thank you both for coming to my class... hope to see you next session. Bye!
World Building Course - Class 2 Transcript - April 27, 2002
April 27 2002, 5:37 PM
<Cheryl> Good Morning.
<@Jim (two of me)> Hi Cheryl !!
<@Jim> I guess my clone went away, so I can be just Jim now. <g>
<Cheryl> Split personalities are interesting, aren't they?
<@Jim> lol... isn't that standard for all writers, tho?
<Cheryl> Believe so...
<Cheryl> Looks like it may be a small class today.
<@Jim> Maybe... Dani will be here soon... not sure about MythMarqueese... s/he may show up, maybe not. Maybe others. Dunno.
<Dani> Hi Jim
<Dani> Hi Cheryl!
<Cheryl> Allo.
<@Jim> Hi Dani !
<Dani> I was going to say, if there's noone else here, you could go back to bed, Jim
<@Jim> lol
<Dani> Now, of course, you have to carry on! <g>
<Cheryl> Hope you had time for coffee, then, Jim.
<Dani> Wow, that drawing's drawing itself!!
<@Jim> No... don't drink coffee... had some cheese and kool aid, tho.
<Dani> What IS kool aid?
<Cheryl> Good combination
<Cheryl> flavored sugar water
<Dani> ahhh, I see.
<@Jim> Umm... mostly water, no sugar, tho... I use Stevia and Sweet'n'low.
<Cheryl> Purplesaurus Rex was my favorite before they discontinued it...
<Cheryl> Flavored water, then <g>
<@Jim> I think Holly drew the original World Building drawing... I doctored it a bit.
<@Jim> My drink of the moment is Wyler's Watermelon.
<Cheryl> Mmmm.
<Dani> I have a glass of water. There's nothing exciting about it.
<Cheryl> There's always imagining it is something else...
<Dani> Mind you, I've churned through a bottle of diet coke and pineapple pieces tonight so far...
<@Jim> Think of it as Kartusean Vodka...
<Dani> (you have to add the pineapple yourself)
<Cheryl> Interesting combo..
<Dani> Makes the coke foamy and I get delusions of cocktail sophistication
<@Jim> I'll have to try that sometime. Shall we get started?
<Dani> Why not!
<Cheryl> Sure.
<@Jim> Welcome to World Building Class 2: The Physics of Your World. Don't worry -- this isn't literally a class on physics, but a look at what you should consider when making your world in order to maintain believability.
<@Jim> If you're writing Science Fiction, physics is more important than if you're writing Fantasy. Statistically, SF readers are mostly scientists, while the majority of Fantasy readers tend towards computer programming.
<@Jim> I don't remember where I picked up that tidbit of information, but it's interesting. Even though fantasy readers tend not to be science types, there is some crossover, and you want your world to be feasible.
<@Jim> There's nothing quite like being at a book signing and have someone ask you how your world the size of New Zealand manages to hold it's atmosphere and how it stays cool only a million miles from the sun.
<@Jim> (hmmm... I wrote that months ago, Dani... not meaning to knock NZ in any way...)
<Dani> lol, s'ok, we get that a lot
<@Jim> And there's nothing like being at the same book signing where you can answer those questions intelligently because you researched your world's physics before you wrote the story.
<@Jim> Here are some questions to ask yourself when constructing your world:
<@Jim> 1. What size and type of star -- or stars -- do you want? Stories have been written with worlds orbiting red stars (MZB's Darkover series comes to mind).
<@Jim> Different types of stars have different diameters and radiate different levels of heat. A red giant is different from a brown dwarf, is different from a white dwarf, etc.
<@Jim> And how close to place your world depends on a number of factors besides the temperature of the sun. I attended a seminar at Chicon (World SF Convention 2000) that dealt with some of these topics.
<@Jim> For example, a physicist in one of those seminars said that any sun will look white from its planets. Which kind of ruins MZB's Darkover books with the red sun and red shadows...
<@Jim> However, there could be something in the atmosphere that could give color effects for that otherworldliness feeling. I was just told today that on Mars the sky looks pink (thanks, Robert).
<@Jim> Your planet's magnetosphere and tidal forces can affect atmosphere and heat retention, effectively warming your world even if it's more distant from the sun.
<@Jim> Which brings us to the next questions:
<@Jim> 2. How big do you make your world? What is it's compostion? Earth is about 8,000 miles in diameter and has an iron core. You can have a bigger or smaller world, with greater or lesser gravity.
<@Jim> If your planet's compostion is different, meaning it has a different mass, then your gravity may be altered accordingly.
<@Jim> Gravity is the force that holds the universe together. It's what makes the Earth stay in orbit around the sun, and it will probably be what makes your world(s) circle your sun(s).
<@Jim> It also makes planets round, unless there is a dynamic, balanced force at work to make them otherwise, like the equatorial bulge on Earth.
<@Jim> Gravity at your world's surface depends on the mass of the planet. g=GM/r^2, where g is accelleration, G is the universal gravitational constant, M is the mass of the planet and r is its radius.
<@Jim> On average, g = 32 feet per second per second accelleration on Earth. Your world may vary, depending on its mass and size.
<@Jim> But that doesn't mean that if your world is the size of the moon, then everyone will jump around like supermen and women.
<@Jim> If they grew up in that gravity, then their musculature and body forms would be suited to their environment. We tend to be lazy creatures that only exercize as much as we are forced to.
<@Jim> 3. How many, if any, moons does your world have? Do they vary in size and distance? What about effects on tides? Do they have atmospheres? Do people live on them?
<@Jim> If people live on multiple worlds, how do they get from one to the other? Space ships? Magical gates?
<@Jim> These are things you need to consider if your world is different from Earth normal... and how do you communicate such differences to the reader when the characters think of their world as normal?
<@Jim> And what is normal? It might be different in your world. Holly has things to say on world building that you might do well to read now and then: http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/faqs8.html
<@Jim> "Fantasy Is Not for Sissies -- Real Rules for Real Worlds" and "Worldbuilding -- Rollicking Rules of Ecosystems" are two excellent how-to articles at http://hollylisle.com/fm/
<@Jim> Thanks to Holly for the following. You can download a set of files I've prepared for this and other aspects of world building from: http://home.att.net/~james.k.mills/World_B.zip
<@Jim> 4. What special physics does your world have? Faster-than-light travel, time travel, magic, extraordinary beasts, vampires, ghosts, angels, gods, goddesses and other phenomena.
<@Jim> In what way does my universe differ from the mundane norm? What is the nature of the difference? How exactly will these differences manifest?
<@Jim> You need to document these things, put them in a notebook (or file) and keep them handy for reference as you write, so that you maintain continuity in your story.
<@Jim> What are the rules by which the special physics operate? What effects will these rules have on culture and story?
<@Jim> Does your story have magic? High tech? Such things will touch every part of society to a greater or lesser degree. Fifty years ago computers were almost unheard of.
<@Jim> Now we have them in our homes.
<@Jim> What are the laws of my special physics? What can they do? What can't they do?
<@Jim> What is the nature of the people who will use these laws? How do they differ from regular people?
<@Jim> If you have people going around throwing fireballs and lightning bolts, they will have an effect on society.
<@Jim> What will that effect be? Will they be outlaws or the law of the land? Will they be warlords? Will they cause carnage and havoc by fighting with such magic power?
<@Jim> Keep in mind that new technology is always used, eventually, in warfare -- if it can be used.
<@Jim> Time was when people swore that we would never use machine guns in war.
<@Jim> Time was when people swore that biological weapons would never be used in war.
<@Jim> Or chemical weapons like mustard gas and nerve gas.
<@Jim> Or nuclear weapons. Like Hiroshima and Nigasaki.
<@Jim> What kind of damage could really powerful magic do if misused?
<@Jim> I can't answer these questions for you. It's your world and your story. You have to answer them. But I can tell you that these are questions you need to ask yourselves.
<@Jim> Let's go to Q&A. Any questions?
<Dani> Wow, that's a lot to take in. Good stuff.
<@Jim> Thanks... hope it helps.
<Cheryl> Lots of info...It does help. Give me a moment on the question part.
