<@zette> And I think it's time to get started!
<Jim> by all means...
<@zette> Okay, to start with, let's look at what a short story is, especially in relation to a novel...
<@zette> This is a general statement, by the way -- it can be adapted and changed.
<@zette> But, a short story is generally an incident, not a history; an adventure, but not an entire quest.
<@zette> One way to define it is to realize that in a short story we do not need to know everything that has happened to the MC. A short story focuses on a defining moment in time, not just an adventure, but the high point of tension in the adventure.
<@zette> MC= Main Character.
<@zette> Argh. Can't get a slide to load now!
<@zette> Are you two here? I'm having problems... (sigh)
<Cailin> I'm here -- and I see the picture fine.
<@zette> Which picture do you have?
<Jim> I'm here.
<Cailin> The chart thingy.
<Jim> simplified plot line for novel.
<@zette> Hmmm... wonder why I can't see it. I'll pull it up in my graphics program...
<@zette> At any rate, this one shows you what might be a plot to a fantasy novel. The MC is born, learns that he has magic abilities...
<@zette> And that's material you need to know as the writer, but you don't need to add any great amount of this to the short story. Short story readers generally expect that 'there are things that went before' that are glossed over.
<@zette> (I can't find the picture!)
<@zette> There. Finally. Does this make sense so far?
<Jim> So far so good. Still the same pic, tho.
<Cailin> So far.
<@zette> That's fine. I haven't changed it yet, even if I can't see it.
<@zette> The trick in writing short stories is to pick your moment in time from a larger story. I could easily write the novel there, but if I was going to do a short story, I'd do something a little different. (Changing picture now... I hope...)
<@zette> Did the picture change?
<Jim> Yes.
<Cailin> Yes.
<@zette> Okay, then this is what you want to look at for a short story -- a moment when there is going to be high tension, quick action, etc.
<@zette> To get to this point, the story might start with (Making this up now, so bear with me) Darian gave up magic when he could not save his own family, but now he faced the loss of the woman he loved, and magic might be the only answer.
<@zette> That's not a great opening line, but you get the idea. We're dropped into the middle of his life, without having to worry about how he got there. We know he has magic and he gave it up because of a great loss. There's really not much more we will need to know, unless something that happened earlier affects what's happening now.
<@zette> There is another type of short story that you might want to consider: An important moment in an otherwise mundane life. The more mundane the life, the less 'exciting' that moment has to be. A mainstream story might focus on the moment when someone takes note of butterflies for the first time.
<@zette> The trick there is to have just enough build up to show how really mundane and dull the person is before this epiphany.
<@zette> But, back to the chart (which I still can't see), just about any of those points would work as a short story. However, the lost love one has the most potential for a stand-alone story.
<@zette> The 'saves world' one is the least likely one to write a short story about, because you need too much build up for a story of that magnitude. It can be done, but that's more likely to be 'novel' material.
<@zette> So the focus is really on a limited amount of time in a life. Though, again, this is not set in stone. Just, when you're first trying to write short stories, this is often the way to make sure they DON'T become novels.
<@zette> Any questions so far?
<Jim> Not yet. You're doing good.
<Damon> um, no Qs, except - this is open membership this evening, isn't it?
<@zette> Thanks, Jim!
<@zette> Yes, open Damon. Welcome!
<@zette> (I wasn't paying attention to the list...)
<Damon> (I'll just sit quietly in the corner)
<@zette> The SFWA guidelines for a short story is 7,499 words or less. Novelette is 7,500 to 17,4999, novella is 17,500 t0 39,999 and novel is 40,000 and up.
<@zette> Many places look for 'short stories' to be up to 10,000 or so words. If you are looking at a special market, be sure and check their guidelines. I have heard that a new author has a better chance of selling a shorter piece, so keep that in mind.
<Cailin> I got disconnected. Did I miss anything?
<@zette> I'm not sure, but it will be in the transcript!
<Damon1> I got disconnected too
<Jim> Me too, but I saved the chat so far.
<@zette> Huh. I wonder what happened!
<@zette> It didn't cut me out, at least.
<@zette> What was the last thing you people saw? The SFWA guidelines?
<Damon1> yes Z
<Jim> yes.
<Cailin> I think mine was on this end, because the person on the computer across from me had the same problem.
<Cailin> I got knocked off before that.
<@zette> Okay. Many places list short stories as up to 10,000 or more words, so if you're looking at a special market to try to sell to, be sure and check what their limits are. Most ezines have much shorter word count limitations.
<Jim> (whew! Thought I'd lost it again.)
<Cailin> I'm trying to ignore that, Jim. My sanity is precarious enough as it is.
<Damon1> one competition I entered said 2000 words max
<@zette> Exactly. I generally don't write for markets, but it's still important to know if you're going to enter something like that.
<@zette> Okay, finding ideas for short stories is the next topic. We're all writers, and I suspect that just about anything will spark a story idea in any of you. It does for me. News, music, history books, etc.
<Damon1> (especially history books)
<@zette> The trick when you find something like this is to not look beyond the prime incident and force yourself to limit the view of the world you are going to write about.
<Jim> Or other works of fiction... "that gives me an idea!"
<Cailin> I had to quit looking at the Tsalagi dictionary because every time I did I'd get ideas cropping up like mushrooms after a rainstorm.
<@zette> I can get ideas looking at leaves on a tree.
<@zette> One way that I do short stories is to imagine a character or incident and 'growing' the story around that first vision.
<Damon M. Lord> are dreams a good source, as they can be so disjointed?
<Cailin> Thank you, Damon - thinking of mushrooms and pineapple at the same time was making me hungry for pizza.
<@zette> I think anything that gives you an idea you an expand on is a good source. Some people have excellent dreams for story fodder.
<Jim> Sure. I keep a notepad by my bed so I can write bits of dreams down.
<Jim> The dream doesn't have to make the whole story, just the seed.
<@zette> I keep my Visor by my bed, but mostly because I don't sleep well, and get a lot of note taking done.
<@zette> The next question is whether or not you want to outline a short story.
<@zette> This depends on the person and the story. I can sit down and write a short story in one rush of words. Those kinds of stories don't need an outline. However, it sometimes helps to have a few notes if it's something that's going to take a few days. I often just note the next steps at the bottom of the story when I stop, so I know where to go next.
<@zette> The one good thing about an outline for short stories is that it can be a limiting agent for what you write. It can help you stay in line, just as it would with a novel.
<Jim> assuming you stick to it. Do you ever find your short story turning into a novel?
<@zette> That can happen, but there's no reason for it to. You can write the short story AND the novel -- the short is a part of a larger story. This is how to extract it from that larger story and help it stand on it's own.
<Damon M. Lord> hmm - reminds me of a story I'm trying to write - every time I start on it - I hack bits off and add it to a novel
<Jim> sort of like selling it twice? once as a short and once as a novel?
<Damon M. Lord> Jim- hey - it worked for Arthur C. Clarke - "2001" and "The Sentinel"
<@zette> Exactly, Jim. I see a lot of novels out with a note saying 'chapter such and such' was first printed in Analog or some such thing.
<Cailin> Can that work in reverse?
<@zette> Learning to write short stories expands your available markets, AND gives you something that can be finished in a far shorter time than a novel.
<@zette> I imagine it can, Cailin, though more often I see short stories based in the same universe as a novel, rather than rewriting part of a published novel as a short.
<Cailin> I have incidents that are interesting and could be expanded, but have to be cut from the novel because they don't push the plot forward. I don't want to just throw them away.
<@zette> There are a few things that you need to think about that can stop you from quickly writing a short story. The first is putting too much time into the background. I haven't done anything more than that chart (if it's still up) on the fantasy novel/short story -- but I could write the short story just from those few points.
<Jim> it's still up.
<Damon M. Lord> I can see it
<@zette> In a short story you are only going to follow a limited amount of time, and you can make everything you need to know on the spot. Don't spend too much time worldbuilding. Get an idea, expand just that idea and very little else.
<@zette> The other things that I see stop people is that they focus on the wrong things. They worry too much over a title or a character name. They'll both come to you when you need them.
<@zette> Titles are even easier to do, sometimes, after you've got a story mostly or entirely written. You might find a theme that works, and look up a keyword in something like Bartlett's Quotations.
<@zette> Or you can use the character's name as the title: Darian's Story, Darian's Quest, etc. The trick is to not let the lack of the title stop you.
<@zette> And don't spend hours looking for just the right character name. Person X is a character being born in your story. It might be a few pages before he becomes real, and you see a name.
<Jim> Do the zines change your titles as often and as willingly as the novel publishers?
<@zette> I've never had a title change in ezines, but I can't say for magazines. I haven't noticed it mentioned among my 'pro' friends, though.
<Damon M. Lord> I usually call all my main chars "Arnold" until their names change
<@zette> That works!
<@zette> Wow, that hour went fast!
<@zette> Any specific questions or comments?
<Damon M. Lord> um, where'd everyone go?
<Cailin> I got disconnected again.
<Damon M. Lord> will this be a weekly class? Is it too late to sign up? And will it be this time every week?
<@zette> I do have a short assignment before tomorrow's class. Find your story 'incident' and write a short description of the story -- just a couple paragraphs or an outline. Don't worry about characters or anything else, just imagine an incident that you think you might like to write about. And be sure to let me know the genre, too.
<@zette> This is going to go for the next four days, Damon. Then a class on the 8th and another on the following Sunday.
<Cailin> Problem, Zette cara -- I get the characters first, then the incident, never the other way around.
<@zette> And you're welcome to join in, if you want.
<@zette> Then imagine a character doing something, Cailin. It doesn't matter if you have the character first, just don't focus on the character.
<Damon M. Lord> (get my diary/palmpilot)
<@zette> My short stories almost always start when I see a character in a situation and grow from there. But you need to have some idea of what the situation is before you can write the story.
<@zette> And don't worry about it being something 'not great' for this class. This is just practice stuff. You might change the entire idea by day three. (grin)
<@zette> Tomorrow we're going to cover how to find the best storyteller and POV for your story, so it will help if you have some idea of a situation.
<Damon M. Lord> ok - that's 31,1,2,3 then 8th Aug, then 11th?
<@zette> Yes, that looks right!
<@zette> Any questions? Thoughts?
<@zette> Damon -- that last one should be the 12th, actually.
<@zette> I think.
<Cailin> All this is going to be posted on the transcripts board?
<Damon M. Lord> gotta make a note of homework - do we have to send it in? or just have it here in front of us?
<@zette> Yes it will. I'll just cut out some of the extra stuff and get it up in a little while.
<@zette> Just have it in front of you for now. I think we have a temporary board for posting that stuff while we're in class, but I need to check that part out.
<Cailin> Okay, I need to skeedadle so someone else can use the computer.
<Damon M. Lord> 12th? that means it'll be Monday morn here... brb
<Cailin> I'll see y'all tomorrow!
<@zette> Bye Cailin! Talk to you later!
<Jim> Is tomorrow the same class session, Z, or a continuation of tonight's?
<Jim> and I missed the homework assignment - had to reboot.
<@zette> Tomorrow we'll discuss finding the best story teller for the story and POV problems.
<Damon M. Lord> where do we submit the homework to?
<@zette> It'll be in the transcript, Jim .
<@zette> Just have the homework done, Damon, so you can discuss it in class tomorrow.
<@zette> Here Jim: I do have a short assignment before tomorrow's class. Find your story 'incident' and write a short description of the story -- just a couple paragraphs or an outline. Don't worry about characters or anything else, just imagine an incident that you think you might like to write about. And be sure to let me know the genre, too.
<Jim> ok...
<Damon M. Lord> ok - making notes :)#
<@zette> Ha. No real smiley faces here. I like this place better and better.
<Damon M. Lord> @ Z - they'll show up in the N54 transcript tho' no?
<@zette> No, they will not, because I'll kill them before they get that far.
<@zette> Okay, if that's about it... ah, lost Jim again.
<Damon M. Lord>
(Yes, I left them in on purpose...)
<@zette> Damon, if the class is too late on the 12th, you can check the transcript and discuss it with me outside the class.
<Damon M. Lord> I think I can make 1am (it's 2:24 now if it's any help) for classes
<Damon M. Lord> did that post?
<@zette> Any time you can't, just check the transcript.
<@zette> Yeah . I hope to do these classes again in a month or so, but at a different time. We'll see if there's any interest.
<@zette> I have to get through Vision first, though. And the rest of the Dare.
<Damon M. Lord> ok - I'm going over to Cato's now - maybe see you there later?
<@zette> Yeah, I'll run over there while I'm editing the transcript! Thanks for dropping in!
<Damon M. Lord> bye (ignore "Damon" - that ID I dunno how to get rid of)
<@zette> Shutting down the power, Luke...
Sorry I missed class! The transcript was great. I'll be here tomorrow (8 PM here in Brooklyn NY) Will have to trim my story idea...after just one class I realize I've got that story-inside-a-novel (or two!) thing going on. See ya!
<@zette> First I have a class announcement. I'm unexpectedly going to be out of town for the next three days. For tomorrow and the next day I can do the class from the laptop in the hotel, but on Friday we'll be on the road.
<Damon M. Lord> Word97 is not working tonight, so it's gonna have to go in notepad
<demur1(robin)> zette, did you receive me email of the assignment?
<@zette> So, I'm going to try and do two of the classes tonight. They're both short ones, so we shouldn't have a problem. Then we'll just skip Friday.
<@zette> Did you just send it?
<demur1(robin)> yes
<Damon M. Lord> did we have to send it in? - Oops sorry I didn't
<@zette> Nothing so far. But don't worry. Really, that was more for you than me, just to get you looking at a basic idea for a story.
<@zette> Okay, everyone ready?
<Damon M. Lord> rubbing hands - ready to go!
<Jim> ((if I disappear again, it's my flaky, dying PC...))
<demur1(robin)> ...willing and able (?)
<Jim> (otherwise, I'm ready)
<Jenny> Ready.
<@zette> I understand, Jim. You can catch what you miss in the transcript.
<@zette> Tonight we're going to start with a discussion about who your best POV (Point of View) Character is for the story. It's not always the main character, though that's usually the best choice.
<@zette> The general rule is to find the person who is going to do the most changing during the story. That's the most interesting character for the reader to follow.
<demur1(robin)> even in a mystery?
<@zette> Now, while Sherlock Holmes was the real MC (Main Character) for the Holmes mysteries, he would have made a really bad POV character. He was too logical. There were no surprises in his world, while Watson, watching him was often changed and enlightened.
<@zette> LOL -- that I was typing up that one when you asked!
<demur1(robin)> esp?
<@zette> (grin)
<@zette> Anyway, the trick is to look at possibilities besides the one character you imagine as the main character. Sometimes you can find a 'sidekick' who can watch what's going on and give a better view, partly because he doesn't know what's going to happen next.
<demur1(robin)> Is it too complicated to have more than one POV in a short story?
<@zette> And that leads us into which type of POV you want to use --
<@zette> Snarf. There we go again. Hold on and let me write this out.
<Damon M. Lord> (is robin looking over Zette's shoulder?)
<Damon M. Lord> we lost Jim
<@zette> There are three basic types of POV: Omniscient, First Person, and Third. (There is a Second Person, but it's really more artsy than useful...)
<@zette> Did that picture change? I can't see it AGAIN!
<demur1(robin)> I can see it!
<Damon M. Lord> i see a (omniscient "Hi" he said etc.) pic
<Jenny> Me too. I think it looks more like a goat than a unicorn.
<@zette> hold on, I have to open it up in a graphic program for me!
<Damon M. Lord> I thought it was a snail
<demur1(robin)> I see 3 humanoids and a deer...
<@zette> Okay. This is omniscient, and really it's the worse one you can use. There can be absolutely no secrets from the reader.
<@zette> It's a unicorn. I say it's a unicorn, and it's a unicorn. (grin)
<@zette> Omniscient puts you into the head of every single character -- the head-hopping trick. The only way you can have a secret from the reader is to purposely skip someone's Very Important Thoughts, and then that becomes an obvious author intrusion and trick.
<@zette> It can be done, but really I don't recommend this one at all. It can be hard for the reader to follow who's who when you jump from head to head as well.
<@zette> Did it change to first person?
<demur1(robin)> nope...
<Damon M. Lord> yes it did Z
<Jenny> Yes.
<Damon M. Lord> graphic says ("Hi" I said)
<@zette> Thanks.
<@zette> Ah good!
<@zette> Okay, first person is the Main Character as Narrator. It has some good points -- immediacy, for instance. But the POV first person character cannot keep any secrets from the readers. And he limits the scope of the story to exactly what he knows and sees.
<@zette> (I could have typed that a little better. Well, I'll fix it in the transcript so I look brilliant.)
<@zette> Third person up?
<Damon M. Lord> changed to 3rd person now Z
<Anon_85> yes
<@zette> Good, good. This is annoying...
<@zette> Anyway, this is probably the more common one. And this is where you have the best chance of using more than one POV character.
<@zette> The trick is to not have too many of them, and to make sure there is a definite break between them so that the reader doesn't get confused. In a short story, I'd stick to three or less. Two is better. One is best, but not always possible.
<@zette> Any questions so far?
<Kaelle> Nope. I'm following you.
<rnw2000> Um <clears throat> are you going to go over tense? I have a first person, past tense question
<@zette> Ask.
<@zette> I probably won't know the answer, of course...
<Damon M. Lord> I once read a short story where it was set into sections - each section gave the VP of a different character, until they'd gone through about 6 people
<rnw2000> How do you handle a past tense story (1st person) when you want to start out ... it was the worst day of my life... or something so
<rnw2000> we know this all is happening in the past for the first person, and yet when we catch up to his/her present
<rnw2000> we continue in past tense...
<rnw2000> you don't write the whole thing in past-perfect, do you?
<rnw2000> <sits down>
<@zette> I'm not sure I would write it that way. The strong point of First person is the immediacy of the story. We are living in the character's head. So you might start with her relating a bit about why it had been the worst day, but slip into the present for most of it. Or whatever the term is. (I have a headache tonight, people, so my brain isn't doing well...)
<@zette> Experiment with the wording and find what reads best, really. It depends on the story. Almost all of my short stories are first person, but my novels are third. First person isn't as good for the long run, quite often.
<rnw2000> okay.. I was thinking about foreshadowing the awful action to come in the first line... that sort of thing... it was the day the earth exploded (or whatever)
<@zette> My suggestion is to try it in different POVs -- write a scene or two, and see if First or third or whatever actually works best.
<demur1(Robin)> The problem with the first person is he/she must see or hear EVERYTHING
<@zette> Exactly. And they can't be everywhere, but they can have a far stronger emotional impact for something that is personal to them.
<Jenny> Is that why most of your short stories are in first, Zette?
<@zette> Now the question is how many characters does your story need? This is where a lot of short stories get away from the writer and start veering off into novels.
<@zette> Yes, I think so. It just seems more natural, when relating a single incident, to give it the most emotional impact you can.
<demur1(Robin)> Is there a rule of thumb re number of characters????
<@zette> As few as you can get away with. Really. Use the Maas's approach of combining characters to cover needed aspects in the story, but try to keep the number down.
<@zette> We don't need to know everyone in town. We need to know the main character, and any one she is going to come in contact with. For a short story, that shouldn't be nearly as many people as it would be for a novel.
<@zette> There may be quite a few 'shadow' people passing along the road, so to speak, but we don't want to dwell on them.
<demur1(Robin)> It gets difficult to justify the presence of too many when you tie it all up at the ending, too
<@zette> What you want is only a couple people with whom your character will have a strong interaction.
<@zette> Exactly. You may need quite a few for certain stories -- but those kinds of stories might not fit as well in the short story limitations, anyway.
<@zette> That doesn't mean you can't do a 'blow up the world' story -- it's the way in which you tell it. The POV. In, say, a first person POV, that character is not going to interact with a lot of different people in the time span of the story.
<@zette> Time span is another point we should cover. Short stories generally have a short time span. Not always -- nothing is set in stone. But you are looking at an incident, not a life.
<Damon M. Lord> so if you want the character to come across as a lonely sort of guy, you'd go for 1st person?
<@zette> I think first person would work well for that. You get to see that he's lonely far more intimately than in third.
<@zette> First person is a very emotional POV.
<@zette> Third person is an observant POV. A bit more detached.
<@zette> And third has the ability to change 'views' from one person to another.
<@zette> Does that help? First can really help you limit the scope of a short story, too.
<Damon M. Lord> thanx Z
<demur1(Robin)> That' s a great help!
<@zette> Good! I'm going to head into what would be class three... did you all see my announcement about Friday?
<demur1(Robin)> yes! I think it' s great you can be on the road and still be here tomorrow and Thursday.
<Kaelle> Yes
<Damon M. Lord> wonderful Z - you are dedicated to this board
<@zette> I hope it works. There shouldn't be a problem. If there is, we'll just reschedule the classes for next week. I thought I ought to mention that part.
<Damon M. Lord> we all gotta thank you
<@zette> I'm addicted to this board. Obsessive, like my writing. (grin)
<Damon M. Lord> (I also might not have been able to have made Friday night, as I'm working on a website for some people who are coming round my house with beer too, but that's another story)
<@zette> Okay, so let's assume you've got a character in mind, and you are considering the POV. You have an incident/story you want to write.
<@zette> The next trick is to find the starting point.
<@zette> In yesterday's work I showed the ups and downs of a story line for a novel, and pointed out the best place to draw a short story out of that. The MC had learned magic, lost his family, discarded the use of magic. Found love -- but his love has been kidnapped.
<@zette> The best place to start this short story is after the kidnapping and as the character is making the decision to go get her. Not with the kidnapping itself, unless he's present.
<demur1(Robin)> Is that because after the kidnapping is the most emotional part?
<@zette> Even then, I would likely skip that part and go to the aftermath of the initial event that sets him in motion. That's the trick here -- you want the story to start out at a dead run.
<Kaelle> That could be dramatic, with him helpless to use his magic to save her as she's being kidnapped, though.
<@zette> Emotional, and already given the motivation to go. If we start with the kidnapping, we don't get to meet the character and find his emotional turmoil right away.
<Damon M. Lord> my planned short story is hardly action tho'
<@zette> It could. But it adds a scene and more characters than you might need to tell the story. Are you telling the story of the kidnapping, or of his rescuing the woman?
<Kaelle> Hmmm.
<Damon M. Lord> hardly any
<@zette> It doesn't have to be action, Damon. It just has to be something strong to draw the reader in.
<@zette> We're using the action format, because that's the usual form of writing either in short stories or novels. There are exceptions.
<demur1(Robin)> I hear the "gentle reader" screaming "entertain me!
<@zette> Remember, you can also tell about the kidnapping in backstory... the character remembers his being helpless as he pushes to find the woman, etc. That adds depth to his fears. Will it happen again?
<@zette> You don't actually have to show the scene in that case. But again, it depends on the story. In this case, I would start with the kidnapping past.
<@zette> Did plot points come up?
<Damon M. Lord> yes
<demur1(Robin)> yes
<@zette> So, in this story case, we send him on his way. He has a small failure of some kind. It can be physical, emotional, whatever works. He picks himself up. He 'climbs' higher toward his goal. At this point he might have a really bad fall. It looks like all is lost, etc.
<@zette> Like Holly said in her plotting class -- don't go in a straight line, in other words.
<Damon M. Lord> does it have to be a happy ending? The story I have in mind is a sad ending
<@zette> Find obstacles, but make them logical ones.
<@zette> Not at all. Let me tell you how I see this story. The guy gave up magic. He fell in love, and as it happens, the woman is from a people who abhor magic. He must use magic to save her.
<@zette> So, he can either not use magic, lose her to the bad guy whom she hates -- or use magic to save her and lose her for himself anyway.
<@zette> He cannot win. He can only do 'the right thing.'
<@zette> The trick for this story is to end it right after the rescue, but with the knowledge of what it has cost him. Not to drag that ending out.
<Damon M. Lord> my story ending is to be like 1984, the hero fails, the end
<@zette> You see the long drop after success. You don't want to go down that side. Just a step or two will suffice.
<@zette> I'll tell you Damon, they don't sell well. If you get a chance, go to NEVERWORLDS and look at their Guidelines. He has an excellent point on what they don't want to see in stories, including ones like that (as I remember it).
<demur1(Robin)> in a novel the hero must be changed or altered, in a story, just have an insight, perhaps?
<@zette> Okay. Assignment for this one is to just work out your opening. Play with the POV, try different characters and move around between first and third -- just experiment.
<@zette> An insight is a change. It's a change in perception -- but you're right.
<@zette> And remember, any story will work if it's written well enough. Damon's story may be excellent and sell the first time out.
<@zette> I'm not really here to tell you what to write, just give you some points on how to keep it within the bounds of a short story. (grin)
<@zette> I've had too many grow into novels myself.
<@zette> Oh... that brings up a point. You can write both, of course. There's no reason you can't write a short story and later write a novel with the same characters. So don't despair if you see expanding vistas. Note them, and write the short for now.
<Damon M. Lord> this has got the potential for novel-size, but i need to get it down into story first
<Damon M. Lord> (ESP)
<@zette> A lot of that tonight.
<@zette> Hey, it's already an hour!
<@zette> Any questions?
<demur1(Robin)> Yes! WHERE in the world is everyone from ? I' m in Brooklyn NY.
<rnw2000> zette... regarding the advancing toward goal and failing and retrying... if the POV is Watson...
<Jenny> What about novellas/novelettes? Is it okay to keep them at in-between length or should you try to shorten them?
<Damon M. Lord> I'm in Cardiff, Wales, at 0206am
<rnw2000> HE doesn't fail does he? He sees Sherlock Holmes fail, right?
<Kaelle> Western New York state, myself.
<@zette> A small town in Nebraska... (sigh)
<Jenny> Baltimore, MD, unfortunately.
<rnw2000> (San Francisco)
<demur1(Robin)> Wow! rnw2000 zette...
<Damon M. Lord> why wow?
<demur1(Robin)> Well, I live with a guy from Ammanford!
<@zette> Usually it's Watson who fails, I think. Watson doesn't see the steps that Holmes does. Watson makes assumptions that are not quite right. I know Holmes makes occasional mistakes, but they're more spectacular because they are occasional. rnw2000 hmm... okay... so Watson has a goal?
<rnw2000> oops. Watson has a goal too?
<rnw2000> not just watching Sherlock do his thang?
<@zette> Watson wants to solve the mystery just as much as Holmes does, don't you think? Doesn't he speculate on what's going on?
<rnw2000> mm hmm
<@zette> And he's actively involved. It may be that his goal is to watch Holmes solve it, but he has a goal.
<Damon M. Lord> Watson tries to outguess Holmes
<rnw2000> so his failures are proposing solutions and Sherlock reprimanding him
<@zette> Something like that. It's been decades since I read a Sherlock Holmes story. Sorry.
<Kaelle> Gotta go. Thank you for a very informative hour, zette. Hope to catch everyone here anon.
<@zette> You should never have a passive character telling the story.
<@zette> Bye!
<@zette> Hope it helped!
<Jenny> 'Bye, Kaelle.
<Kaelle> Bye!
<demur1(Robin)> Thanks Z.! Good night all -- I go to WRITE.
<@zette> Just because he's observing, doesn't mean he isn't active as well.
<Damon M. Lord> nighty night Z - what's the homework tonight?
<rnw2000> so if the cool-factor is the POV is observing the end of the world...
<rnw2000> he/she should be trying to stop it?
<Damon M. Lord> get the beginning down in 1st and 3rd to try it out?
<@zette> if there is a hope of stopping it. There might be other options. Going to say goodbye to friends and enemies. Preparing himself for death.
<@zette> Hi Holly!
<Jenny> Bye, Robin! May your ink flow smoothly.
<Holly> Hiya. Didn't want to interrupt class.
<@zette> That's it, Damon.
<@zette> We're just winding down again.
<Damon M. Lord> Hi Holly - I think the bell's just rung, so come on in
<rnw2000> okay I'll hold my questions til later
<Holly> Okay. Dropped in briefly earlier, because Jennifer Brin couldn't get the conference room to work. I was checking to see if it had pooped out on you.
<Holly> But class was going on, so I scooted back out again.
<@zette> I still can't see anything on the white board, but we worked that out.
<@zette> Ask any questions!
<Holly> Really???. It looks fabulous to me.
<@zette> I have to pull it up in a graphics program to remember what I'm looking at. Everyone else can see it, though.
<rnw2000> so, zette, I'm trying to get a handle on the POV char & the goals/failure issue
<@zette> Okay...
<rnw2000> I'm working on this story of the one person who sees 'it all' go wrong... nifty but, she is really a bystander
<rnw2000> to the incident until it is over
<@zette> What sort of personal impact does it have on the character? What does it stop her from doing that she wants to do?
<rnw2000> its earth-changing incident and she knows all about it because she is an insider
<rnw2000> but she is in love with the man who forks it all up for everyone
<@zette> I can see where the failure/obstacle one would be hard in that story. Is she torn between going along with it and thinking she should try to stop him?
<rnw2000> sure... its not all plotted out... I thought it would be an interesting tale, but looking at the triangles of your graphic I'm wondering if I've picked a poor POV character
<@zette> If so (for a story I would write, at least), I would have her at least make one aborted attempt to stop him. Either have her stopped by outside forces, or by her own emotions. Outside is generally stronger, but may not work in this case.
<@zette> Try playing with other POVs. You might find one with more impact. But I suspect you have it write, you just need to find the way to put twists and obstacles in her path.
<@zette> (Feel free to jump in, Holly!)
<rnw2000> right?
<rnw2000> okay thanks. I can see a mod to my plotline that adds a few triangles
<@zette> Good! (grin)
<Holly> <g> I'm editing the last of MOF. Don't mind me -- I just wanted some company while I worked.
<@zette> Almost done? Great! I bet you'll be happy to have this one out of your hands!
<rnw2000> thankz zette.
<@zette> No problem. Any other questions?
<rnw2000> the other one I had was about the start and the tenses of a story...
<rnw2000> This was the time that the earth was destroyed... and I should have seen it coming
<rnw2000> That kind of beginning... so the reader knows what they're in for
<@zette> (Wonders if I should hide now... tenses look alien to me tonight...)
<rnw2000> hehe... no problem. I'll play with it & let you know
<@zette> Do they need to know what they're in for? Surprising the reader is far better than telling them too much too soon.
<@zette> Besides, if she's in on it, she's going to know what's coming, right?
<rnw2000> so.. The concept is 'and I should have seen it coming'
<rnw2000> but I do suppose I could write it that she finds out in the middle and tries to stop it or something, but that changes the 'artistic-yatta-yatta'
<rnw2000>
<@zette> That's just a thought on my part. Look at different approaches, and find the one with the most punch.
<rnw2000> the punch. That's what I thought the heavy-handed foreshadowing would lend... <shrug> I'll play around with it
<@zette> That's not really foreshadowing though, is it? It's a done deal. There's not question. Now, having her fear what's going to happen might be better foreshadowing.
<rnw2000> so, I was going to let the reader know that SOMETHING bad was going to happen & she was in the middle and she should have seen it coming
<rnw2000> ... so in some ways this may be mystery-ish
<@zette> Ah! That's different.
<rnw2000> oh sorry... I wasn't trying to hide the relevant bits
<@zette> Like I said, play with it. Especially the opening, and see what works best. What draws a reader in, and what makes the rest of the story stronger.
<rnw2000> mm hmm... I will
<rnw2000> thank you
<@zette> And have fun! (grin) That's my prime rule of writing.
<@zette> I hope it helps!
(We then talked about rewrites and lots of other things while Holly worked...)
<@Zette> Am I here?
<Robin> YEH!!!!
<Jim> Hi Zette!
<Allen> Welcome, Supreme Leader.
<@Zette> Hi. I am on a very slow computer. Hold on a second...
<@Zette> This is taking forever for me to see the lines come up, so bare with me.
<Jenny> Hi Zette, thanks everybody!
<Robin> I' m in my pj' s ok?
<@Zette> Okay... today we'll go through how much background the reader needs for a short story!
<@Zette> Just like with a novel, the writer needs to know far more than the reader wants to know.
<@Zette> Can someone here make a copy of this to be sure it works? rnw2000 i copied what you've said so far
<Robin> Huh? I'll try to... if you can tell me how?
<@Zette> Are you guys there?
<@Zette> I'm not seeing anything, not even my posts...
<Jim> I can copy it for you Z.
<rnw2000> I see your picture & I see "are you guys there"
<@Zette> Thanks. I think I'm working again...
<Jim> Yes. We're here - your graphic posted.
<@Zette> Thanks.
<@Zette> A fire alarm was going, then stops, then going...seems to be fine now...
<@Zette> This is very... slow....
<Robin> we'll be patient...a zen moment...
<@Zette> Okay, background...The author can build as much background as he wants to, but he has to learn to limit what he uses in a short story.
<@Zette> So, if you love worldbuilding, I suggest that you write several stories in the same universe.
<Anon_66> Guilty blush
<Jim> Mine is very slow, too, for some reason -- maybe 20 or 30 seconds from send to post.
<Jim> (Anon, if you type your name in the "name" box, we'll know who you are.)
<@Zette> Try for immediate details, but don't overpower the story with the background. A few striking details can do more for a story than layer upon layer of mundane description. Try to stick to the unusual or the relevant.
<Anon_66> I did - I'm in once as Cailin, and once as Anon.
<Dana> Cato seems to have infected the conference room.
<@Zette> The trick with a short story is to keep everything to a minimum. You need detail, and you need important detail, but you just have to be careful about how much you use.
<rnw2000> is there such a thing as too much important detail? -- if so, does that mean the story isn't a short story?
<@Zette> You want to concentrate your details on the most immediate parts of the story. Unlike a novel, where you can pull the reader in from a far to a close view, you have to start close to the center of action. Lots of things will have to take on dual meanings.
<@Zette> Yes, you can bury it in details of the exact shape and size of your spaceship, when just a brief description would be enough for this story.
<@Zette> It may be important to the world, it might be great in a novel, but it will not always work in a short story. Short stories have to get straight to the action, so to speak. You don't have time for all the depth and detail.
<@Zette> Really, what you add in depends on the story. A description of the ship might be important, but one of the entire port where the ship is would probably be too much.
<@Zette> You can pretty much tell what's important. But some people love their created worlds too much, and want to tell us far more than we, as readers, need to know.
<@Zette> The graphic is really what you need to consider for detail. Working out in the circle, you need less detail.
<@Zette> You want things that are really going to impact the story, not just to show us the area. You want a wider view for a novel, where people (readers) are going to live in that world for quite a while. But a short story can get by on far less.
<@Zette> Does that make sense to you people?
<Allen> And in most short stories that I have read background and histories are there as introduction to characters and/or the storyline. After serving that purpose they are dropped and the action is immediately commenced. O'Henry stories are classic examples of this.
<Cailin> yes
<Jenny> Yes.
<Anon_42> ((my new PC locked up and I wasn't able to save the class text - could someone else do so when we're done, please?))
<@Zette> Graphic changed?
<rnw2000> I have a copy of everything thus far
<Anon_42> ((Anon_42 is Jim.))
<rnw2000> did change.
<Jenny> Pretty butterflies.
<Cailin> Allen and I have to get off the computers now.
<@Zette> Excellent. Can you email it to me when we're done? I'll be able to get it worked up for the transcript on Friday night...
<@Zette> I can't get this poor old computer to copy.
<Jenny> 'Bye, Cailin and Allen! rnw2000 not a problem zette
<@Zette> Bye Cailin and Allen! This will be offered in transcript!
<Cailin> Thank you, Zette.
<Anon_42> (picture changed to a blank screen)
<Cailin> Never mind - the librarian said I could stay.
<@Zette> Now detail includes history background. This one is harder, because you do need to be able to tell enough to make people understand…
<@Zette> Understand the world that they've been thrown into. Sometimes it seems that you have to start farther back in the story than you really want to, just to bring in all the details of what's happened, without doing an info dump.
<Jenny> How much background can you save for later in the story, as you can for novels?
<Anon_42> (am I still here?)
<Cailin> Yes, Jim.
<@Zette> It's okay. We won't be here much longer... Save as much as you want. Use everything you can. I've written several stories in the same 'universe' using background details that I either used before or had created just to know.
<@Zette> If you have another story to go with it, then use it!
(Obviously, I didn’t quite read the question right here. The answer here is that you can play with the pattern of material until you find something that works. No two stories are going to be the same. If you find you need some information later in the story, then you should use it then.)
<@Zette> Am I still here?
<Cailin> {tumbles out of her chair and down the rabbit hole...}
<Anon_32> yes, still here.
<@Zette> There is no law at all that says you can only use something once. In fact, I've found that the later stories generally get better because I have a better feel for the world.
<@Zette> But here is a trick to use for incorporating history that you don't really want, or need, to write out in detail. Instead of "Today a meteorite fell and killed someone on Main Street' start with 'The third person was killed by a meteorite today.'
<Cailin> A mystery would be pretty hard to do as a short story, wouldn't it?
<@Zette> This opening establishes the unusual as history. This is a world where people are being hit by meteorites. You do not have to show the first two deaths.
<@Zette> Read Ellery Queen Magazine. They put a bunch of mystery short stories out every single issue.
<@Zette> This is also a trick to help humans accept the unusual. When presented with something as history, we are less likely to question it.
<@Zette> So, even more than a novel, you need to get right into the meat of the story with a short story.
<@Zette> This would be (under most circumstances) a bad opening: Daniel was the fourth born son, and he grew up sitting at his father's cobbler bench, watching him shape leather every day. His father made dainty slippers for her ladyship and hard-soled boots for the farmers. He repaired shoes and made new ones. But none of that prepared Daniel of the war with the orcs.
<@Zette> Better opening: Growing up as a cobbler's son hadn't prepared Daniel for the war with the orcs.
<@Zette> Unless the father's work is going to be important t the story, you don't want to throw it out there with that kind of detail, especially as the opening to a story.
<@Zette> You might want to bring some of it in a bit later in the story, but in a short story you don't want to lead off with anything that isn't really important to the story.
<@Zette> Just constantly remind yourself that you DON'T HAVE TIME for all the neat stuff that you'd like to add in.
<@Zette> (Typing on this keyboard is very odd! It's going to take me quite a bit to fix my typos this time!)
<Jenny> It sounds like short stories are gruesome exercises in self-restraint.
<@Zette> Sometimes they are. It was very hard for me to get the knack of them. Three years ago I snapped at my husband every time he suggested I try to write one. (grin)
<@Zette> It's hard, at first, to get the detail/size of story ratio right. It takes work. But short stories have some real nice advantages over novels. Like you can actually have one written, rewritten, and sent off in a few days, instead the years it takes novels. It's nice to be able to look at something and know it's DONE.
<Anon_32> Novice question: What's the average short story length?
<@Zette> Do you guys have any questions?
<@Zette> Am I here?
<@Zette> SFWA standards say short stories can be up to 7,499 words. But there is no average in that range.
<@Zette> And quite a few places consider up to 10,000 or more a short story. I think I listed the SFWA standards out in the first transcript for short stories, novelettes, etc.
<Melanie> Thank you
<@Zette> Slow, slow, slow. You really need to look at the sort of markets you want to sell to, and see what their guidelines say they'll take.
<@Zette> But I have often heard that a new writer has a better chance of selling something in the shorter range of what a magazine will take.
<@Zette> Sorry this is so clunky tonight, people. We have three laptops with us, but only this one was set up to go. We got here too late to get either of the other two set up, and they're much faster machines.
<@Zette> And we could only get in on our absolutely slowest ISP connection as well. Bad phone line, we think.
<Melanie> No problem, Zette... another question if no one else has anything at the moment...
<Jim Mills> Np, Z.
<Melanie> ... you've mentioned using discretion when including environmental,
<@Zette> Any other questions for tonight? I keep this class short on stuff for me to lecture about, and tomorrow night will be short too, and then we can discuss your stories, if you like.
<@Zette> Ask!
<Melanie> that you run into in creating characters?
<Melanie> part of that question is missing...sorry.
<@Zette> Did I lose this one?
<rnw2000> ...whoa! did I miss something?
<rnw2000> what was your question?
<@Zette> Oh good. Thought I had gone nuts. Try it again?
<Jim Mills> (Do we have a homework assignment tonight?)
<Melanie> It got eaten... the gist was... do the same rules of brevity apply in creating
<Melanie> characters for a short story? Or is that where we should focus most of the detail?
<@Zette> My original plan was to have you write your openings tonight, Jim -- but it's so iffy about me being able to get back, that we'll hold off on any real writing until after tomorrow.
<@Zette> In creating characters? Not really. Your characters have to come alive very quickly in a short story. The types of details might be stronger than in a novel.
<@Zette> You aren't going to show the character growing up, so you'll need to find ways to bring out failings and character quirks quickly. (That's just a general statement about growing up... but novel characters do have longer to tell us about themselves.)
<Cailin> I'm having a problem with the first assignment.
<@Zette> Remember, all of this is a general statement. It's not that you don't want detail about the world in your story: It's that you have to really be careful about how much, and which details. You don't have the pages to expand in. So what you show takes on a stronger meaning in the story.
<Melanie> What was the first assignment? Sorry, new to the entire site... still finding my way around.
<@Zette> Don't worry Cailin. All you really need to worry about is sitting down and doing a short story in the next ten days or so.
<Cailin> But I'm stuck.
<@Zette> Don't worry about it, Melanie. I really just wanted people to start thinking about doing a short story.
<@Zette> Why?
<Allen> I can share some ideas with you, love. }:-p
<Melanie> Thanks, Zette
<@Zette> (They why was for Cailin.)
<Cailin> I'm too zonked to really explain right now, but it's because you told us not to worry about the characters right away. I always get the character first. This is wiers.
<rnw2000> ... so what do you see yer character doing? where does he/she live? why would anyone want to read about him/her?
<Cailin> No thanks, Allen -- you try to take the story completely away from me.
<rnw2000> thats where you can find the story
<@Zette> When you said that I said not to worry about it, to go with what you see.
<Allen> Correct me if I'm wrong, Zette, but shouldn't the action line be developed first and then the character plunged in?
<Cailin> And that's where I always find it -- but Zette told us not to go there yet.
<Allen> I've always written shorts by creating the action first then show who it is happening to and why second.
<@Zette> No, Allen. Almost all my stories are character first, and then imagine what they might be doing. It depends on the writer.
<@Zette> This is so slow!
<Cailin> To me that's putting the cart before the horse.
<Allen> Sometimes my shorts end up as 1/2 flashback and then currrent action and resolution.
<@Zette> Ah, I think I must have not showed that clearly. What I wanted was for you not to get stuck on the character, and never go any farther. Start with the character, by all means. Just don't stop with him. And don't let him expand out to tell you this is a novel.
<Cailin> I do need to scat now if I'm going to grab some books before the library closes.
<@Zette> And those are often very boring stories. But, on the other hand, some can be well written. There are no absolute rules with short stories.
(Misread Allen's comment as well. I thought he'd said that most of the stories he reads (missed the 'my') part…)
<Cailin> Okay ... I thought you meant to not go into the character at all, but to write the action and then put the character in it. I kind of panicked.
<@Zette> Bye Cailin!
<@Zette> nah. I'm character driven myself. (grin)
<rnw2000> i will unless someone else claims to have it
<@Zette> This set of classes is really to help people who have trouble writing a short story, and sometimes find them expanding into novels. It's where to find the short story, and what action you can take (like limiting details) to make sure it stays short.
<Allen> Cailin said to tell you, Zette, that you are a character but we all love you anyways.:-)
<@Zette> That's why it's called Keeping It Short
<@Zette> Did I miss something there?
<@Zette> LOL! rnw2000 no.. i responded to all when I meant to respond privately :|
<Melanie> Thanks so much, Zette! It's been extremely enlightening. I've got to run. Take care everyone!
<@Zette> Ah. Good. Thought it was skipping posts on me again.
<@Zette> Any other questions?
<@Zette> Bye!
<@Zette> Thank you!
<Allen> They're shutting the comps down and giving me looks; so I guess I had better log off too. Thanks, All
<@Zette> Bye! Good luck!
<@zette> Transcripts are here: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/69237
<Michaela> Thanks, @zette
<@zette> Okay, this is running a little slow, but we'll give it a try anyway!
<Jim Mills> Welcome to the site, Spheric. If we can help in any way, please let us know.
<Spheric> ty
<Cailin> I've been saving them to disc.
<@zette> No problem!
<Cailin> Welcome, Spheric and Michaela both!
<@zette> This is the last of the 'lecture' part of the classes. We really don't have much to cover this time, and then we can discuss any questions the rest of you have, or discuss problems you might have.
<Spheric> I do have a problem ; )
<@zette> We've talked about limiting the scope of a short story by cutting out all the extra stuff that you might use if you were writing a full-fledged novel. But you are still faced with how to get your characters through a series of scenes from the start to end.
<@zette> You can't, of course, make any story too easy for your character. It's as true for short stories as it is for novels.
<@zette> With short stories, you have to make the steps quicker, and have fewer of them. You need roadblocks, but they can't be ones that would take half a novel to get past.
<@zette> Did that background change on the board?
<Spheric> yes, great flames
<@zette> I can't see it again. I could last night, but I can't tonight. I don't know why. Thanks!
<@zette> In a novel, you might take the detour that leads off to the nut and come back again to the main story. You can't do that in a short story. You must keep your ultimate goal always in mind, and make sure that whatever roadblocks you set up will help the character reach that goal when he gets past them.
<@zette> Don't throw in an attack of killer vampire raccoons just to add some adventure. Find a real enemy for your character to go up against.
<@zette> In a really short short story, you might need only one such confrontation. In a longer one, you probably want to work out a series of confrontations/steps for the character to take. But not too many. Really, most of that depends on the story itself. You can generally tell how much you need.
<@zette> It just takes practice.
<@zette> What you want to do is find the mini-break points in your story and make certain that the story has climbed to a higher pitch each time. And then you reach the big ending -- but don't go far beyond that.
<@zette> Now we get to a word that some of us cringe at -- OUTLINE
<Cailin> LaZETTE! Watch your language! There might be minors in the room!
<Jenny> I like outlines. Actually, I suspect I like them too much.
<@zette> I don't always outline at all. Sometimes I will only block out a few basic scenes, because I can get lost in my own writing and lose the path of the story. But some people find outlines very helpful.
<@zette> LOL, Cailin. But here's the easy way to outline. When you stop writing for the day, just add a single line for each step you see for the story, from that point to the end.
<@zette> That can be an incredible help in making sure you keep the story in line.
<Cailin> But what if you don't know what you're going to write until after it's already written?
<@zette> Liking them too much can be a problem. I know a lot of people who work very hard on the outlines, and never write the stories because they've 'told' it already, and the actual writing of it afterwards is boring.
<@zette> So you have to find your own level on that.
<@zette> To be honest, Cailin -- that's a bad way to write a story. You should always have some faint idea of what you want the story to do. And that's all you need to write down.
<@zette> For instance, you stop at a point where your people have gone to sleep for the night. You need to have some idea if they are going to face a problem in the morning -- or maybe something that comes into their camp that night. You don't need to say more than that, but it will help you keep on the line.
<@zette> The problem with not having a goal, Cailin, is that's how the story gets away from you and either grows far too large, or else dies for lack of direction.
<Robin_> Maybe what Cailin' s doing is writing TO the story --- her rewrite will be the development of the idea or theme.
<@zette> But that still doesn't guarantee that you won't find yourself stuck at some point. I have one rule for those moments, and it almost always works. If you find yourself looking at a scene and you're not sure what to do next -- then look for what would be the worse thing that could happen to your characters right then.
<Cailin> To be quite honest, I haven't got a clue what I'm doing. Every time I think I know where we're going, besides the vague end I have in mind, everything changes.
<Spheric> or the best thing
<@zette> The worse doesn't have to be a huge battle. It might be a soaking rain while they're hiking in the hills.
<@zette> You're letting it change. You know where it was going. Write that down and force yourself to keep to it.
<@zette> Best things are not good for stories, Spheric. They are not the kinds of exciting things, usually, that will get a reader excited and wondering what happens next.
<@zette> Save best things for the ending, if it fits, or for a brief moment, here and there, in a story. But don't try to use them to un-stick a story. They are not motivators. They'll only make your characters happy to stay where they are.
<Cailin> I think my characters and I need to redefine our relationship. I am going to start refusing to merely take dictation and start taking charge.
<@zette> But even if you use the 'worst thing' always keep it in context with the story.
<@zette> You are the goddess of your worlds, Cailin. It's time that you let your characters know that. (grin)
<@zette> It's fine to let the characters have a little leeway. Sometimes you can see things, when you look through a character's eyes -- but always remember that you are in charge of them. Don't disregard something that fits to the story, but don't let them ruin the story before you finish it.
<@zette> And remember that you have more than one story in you. If you come up with something neat you'd like to write, note it down and do it for another story. Use the same characters, if you can, but stick with your vision of this one, all the way to the end.
<@zette> Spheric, here's one that kind of plays into your 'the best thing' note. Don't get too caught up in the pretty stuff of a story. (Did the graphic change?)
<Jim Mills> (yes it did)
<Jenny> It changed.
<@zette> Thanks.
<Spheric> yes, I think what I was trying to say was the 'best' thing that really isn't
<Spheric> like the red red apple in snow white
<Spheric> it was poisonous
<@zette> In a novel, you might spend a page or two describing the wonderful waterfall at the end of a valley. You really can't do that in most short stories. A little detail goes a long ways in a short story, so you have to be careful of what you write.
<@zette> And remember that most of us have seen waterfalls. We'll know what they're like.
<@zette> Short stories move at a different pace than novels. Short stories are faster adventures. The reader is looking for a quick fix. They don't have the time to wade through the pond to the waterfall. They want to see the frog as soon as possible.
<@zette> BUT! This does not mean that you avoid any tension and just leap from one problem to the next. You just need to be careful of what you write as tension. If you are putting in a description of a waterfall because it looks nice, limit the description, and find a way to make it a problem as well as pretty.
<@zette> I see one more problem that writers state a lot as a reason why they can't move on in a story. It's the ' my characters wouldn't do that' excuse.
<Cailin> Like the water rushing over the falls being stained pink because of all the boddies that have been flung in the pond?
<@zette> This is not a reasonable statement. If you come up against something in a story and think that your characters wouldn't do it, then find a way for them not to. Or force them to do something 'against character.' Remember that people under stress are apt to do things they normally wouldn't. They are even apt to do stupid things, which can add to a story.
<@zette> Ponds are usually at the bottom of the waterfall, but that's a good example.
<@zette> When you come up against a point like that, look at why you think your people won't move forward and either find a way around the problem or through it. But don't let it stop you from finishing.
<Cailin> The only waterfall I ever saw was one that had the pond on top and flowed straight into the river.
<@zette> And that brings us to the last part... finishing a short story.
<@zette> Ah. I've only seen ones that were rivers at the top (or streams) that flowed into a pond -- or on into the rest of the river.
<@zette> But that would work.
<@zette> You would just have to make sure you know the mechanics of how a pond like that would work, rather than a river/stream type waterfall. People like me would immediately think the one type, rather than that.
<Cailin> This "pond" is actually a massive spring - they still haven't found the bottom of it. They used to use it to power the mill.
<@zette> Okay, so let's assume that you've gotten your character from the opening, through a series of trials and tribulations, and all the way to the end. Let's assume that the ending is a big battle with the bad guy. There are different points at which you can end the story.
<@zette> (Neat Cailin. That sounds like an interesting place!)
<@zette> The most obvious is that you do the fight, the good guy wins, and that's that. Except, what was he fighting for? Was he after a prize of some sort? Did he rescue the woman he loves? Then the reader will expect to see the two of them together.
<@zette> The problem is that you can run this too long sometimes, and lose the power of the climax. Once that battle is done, the last thing you want to do is write another four pages of how they got back to the village, built their own little hut, and had five kids.
<@zette> The story was about how he rescued the woman. Once that is done, show that he's completed the quest, won the woman of his dreams, and they are going off together.
<@zette> Finding the right ending is often as difficult as finding the right opening. With the opening, you want the action to be already going. With the ending, you want the action to be barely over.
<@zette> There might be another answer for an ending. In some cases having an ambigous ending will work. The story of someone finding the courage to fight a monster might end right before the battle. The outcome of that fight isn't as important as the struggle it took the character to get there. Win or lose is no longer important. She found the courage to try.
<@zette> But you can't do those kinds of stories very often. (grin) It's just a possibility.
<@zette> Hey, we've been here almost an hour! Any questions?
<Spheric> What would you do if you think your ending is 'flat'? Not as good as the rest of your story?
<@zette> You guys are being way too quiet. It makes me nervous.
<Jim Mills> (I'm not sure what to ask, Z.)
<@zette> Then pull it out and work exclusively on making it less flat. A little more tension, better wording, etc. Or a slight twist just before the end.
<@zette> Rethink the ending, if you need to. Was it too easy at the end? Then give your people one more trial by fire to get through, just when it looks like they'll win.
<Cailin> I'm at a loss. I haven't written a short story before, except for my pathetic attempts for my college writing course.
<Spheric> very perceptive - my story includes a fire
<@zette> They're not as hard as they look. They're mini-adventures. Very short novels.
<Spheric> actually the remembrance of a fire during a seance
<Michaela> Z, instead of outlining can you use the index card method? Write different ideas on a separate index card and make up story that way.
<@zette> We've been having a lot of esp around here lately. (grin)
<Spheric> I think the fire sequence is much more exciting than the resolution
<Cailin> {looks innocent}
<@zette> I love the index card method. It's a lot more fun than outlining, and allows you to move pieces around to build the tension better.
<@zette> Then end right after the fire sequence. If the resolution isn't exciting, then you probably don't need to do more than give it a couple lines.
<@zette> Don't drag the ending out, in other words. End just a little beyond the highest point of adventure.
<Spheric> the goal for my character though is knowledge
<Spheric> I'm not sure how to demonstrate that w/o going on
<@zette> If there is something specific that the characters 'win' through their trial, try to make certain that the is apparent to the reader, and they'll believe, having won, that they reached that goal.
<Jim Mills> Spheric: So have him/her learn something important and then end the story. Find a book or something.
<@zette> How is the knowledge given? Are they handed a book? Then that's all the reader needs to see.
<Spheric> no book, character has vision of fire during seance
<Spheric> and then knows the truth about a haunting
<Spheric> but I think I need to get her out of trance
<@zette> In other words, show the character getting the key, but not the knowledge itself -- unless you have made that knowledge is an answer that you need to complete the story.
<@zette> Ah, okay. Yes, here is a problem.
<Spheric> dreamsequences, trances, and flashbacks, yes, I know
<Spheric>
<@zette> What you might have is a passive character. They don't always work well, because they're not really doing anything to reach the ending. It's coming to them. So make her fight for it, somehow.
<Spheric> yes, she's experiencing it at firsthand - choking like she's in the fire herself
<@zette> Experiencing it is not the same as dealing with it, though. Just keep that in mind. She's still being passive if everything happens to her, and she is not doing anything to move the story ahead.
<@zette> What you might need -- if you don't have it already -- is an enemy that she can work against, even if it is in trance. Not something ethereal, but a solid force that the reader can recognize as an enemy to be slain before the knowledge is gained.
<@zette> But that's just an idea. Really, if the problem is just the ending, then you should probably look at ways to cut that ending down to make it more exciting.
<@zette> I should note real fast that I will be on the road for home tomorrow at this time, but I've covered all the stuff that I would have on Friday in the last two classes, so we did very well.
<Spheric> I think I need to take a line of dialogue away from one character and give it to her
<Jim Mills> Drive safe, Z.
<Spheric> yes, safe journey
<@zette> That kind of stuff often works well, Spheric. Sometimes the smallest fix can change the focus and help.
<Spheric> thanks for the tips
<@zette> I don't have a scheduled class until next Wednesday, August 8th. Between now and then all of you should start working on a short story, if you haven't started one already, and be prepared to discuss how it's going on Wednesday.
<@zette> But, as most of you know, I'm usually in the regular chat most nights, so you can talk to me there, too.
<@zette> Or email me with any specific questions at zette@sff.net
<Jim Mills> Z, there was a question regarding a class you scheduled for 8am Sunday... did you talk to Holly about that?
<Spheric> r there ways to share stories?
<@zette> The goal is to have the first draft of a short story done by August 12th.
<Jim Mills> S: You can post them in crit circles...
<@zette> Drat. Forgot to get that changed. It should be PM, of course.
<@zette> I was thinking that after the 12th we might start a crit circle just for people in this class.
<Jim Mills> Conflict that day -- worldbuilding workshop at same time.
<Spheric> will we be doing any sharing w/ this class?
<Jim Mills> Would you like me to start a Keeping it Short Crit Circle, Z? It could go on the general fiction board.
<@zette> Is there? He must have put those in after I did the class. My fault for having the wrong time. I'll move to another day.
<Spheric> that would be cool
<@zette> No, Jim. Not yet. Not till after the 12th. There is no reason for people to rush to get into the circle.
<@zette> We'll move to the 14th. That's still free.
<Jim Mills> k.
<Spheric> guidelines for stories?
<@zette> And that gives everyone a few extra days. This is serious -- you should have a finished first draft by then. That's the point of writing short stories (at least as far as this class goes) -- they do not take forever to write.
<@zette> No guidelines except to make sure they are less than 7,499 words -- official SFWA short story limit.
<Spheric> topic?
<Spheric> any genre?
<Jim Mills> The problem I'm having is coming up with short story ideas. Most of the ones I write are novels. I've searched through all my novels for a scene that might make a good short, but have been drawing a blank.
<@zette> Any at all.
<Spheric> great
<@zette> Did that come through? Look at the chart from the first class, Jim. Pull out a piece of that novel, and write it as a short story. There is no reason why you can't do both.
<Spheric> can the story be literary instead of genre?
<Jim Mills> Ok... I'll look at it again.
<@zette> If you want. I don't care what type of short story, really. Just so long as it is a real short story.
<Spheric> o.k., crimson warrior needs the address for the class transcripts
<CrimsonWarrior> Well let me introduce myself then and thanks for the help Spheric
<@zette> It's somewhere in this transcript. Let me see if I can find it again!
<CrimsonWarrior> I am Portuguese... and this is the first time I get to enter this conference room
<Spheric> sorry, I just don't have the address, and zette does
<Jim Mills> The class transcripts are on the Class Transcripts board.
<Jim Mills> http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/69237
<CrimsonWarrior> Okay
<CrimsonWarrior> thanks
<@zette> Ah, he got it!
<Jim Mills> yw.
<@zette> There! New date set on calendar for the last class.
<@zette> Welcome to the conference room, Crimson!
<@zette> Are there any more specific questions? Remember, I'm on a phone card until I get back home tomorrow. (grin)
<CrimsonWarrior> thank you zette! I really enjoyed this last hour.
<Jim Mills> Z: I have the log if you need it.
<CrimsonWarrior> I have been reading every hour
<CrimsonWarrior> I guess I will be appearing here more often
<Spheric> yes, thank you
<CrimsonWarrior> Then again you'll have to forgive my English sometimes
<CrimsonWarrior> as I said before I live in Portugal
<@zette> Good!
<Spheric> your English is god
<Spheric> good
<Spheric>
<CrimsonWarrior> thanks
<@zette> You're doing just fine. I mangle enough English for both of us, and it's my native tongue.
<@zette> We're informal here. Don't worry.
<Spheric> my typing is probably worse than your English
<CrimsonWarrior> O.K.
<CrimsonWarrior> Lol, Spheric.
<@zette> I may be giving this class again in September, if there is any interest. I have to get past the Writer's Dare and getting Vision put together before I go into another project.
<CrimsonWarrior> Well I've been having classes for some years but...
<CrimsonWarrior> it's never the same.
<@zette> Anything anyone wants to ask?
<Jim Mills> No class tomorrow, right?
<Spheric> just to confirm, sun, Aug 14 8pm, bring your short story?
<@zette> None tomorrow. One class on the 8th to see how everyone is going, and then the 14th, 8PM with story in hand. (grin)
<Spheric> got it
<robin> thanks, z
<@zette> And I am available, through email or often in chat, just about any day. Except tomorrow, when I'll be on the road. This is not the chat room, for those just here. The chat is listed on the bottom bar of the Forward Motion site. It says Chat! And lists how many chatters are there.
<@zette> No problem. I'm sure I could have explained things better in a lot of cases, but this is the first time I've ever done something like this. I write stories instinctively; so working out details on how to do it was a real challenge.
<CrimsonWarrior> I think you did it quite well. Thanks, I really liked some of your explanations
<@zette> Thank you!
<robin> the step by step approach was very helpful --- now to write it!
<Spheric> good night all
<Jim Mills> I agree. You've cleared up a lot of my questions about differences between shorts and novels.
<Spheric> excellent graphic organizers
<@zette> That's always the trick. Don't get discouraged. It may take a few tries to get it down.
<@zette> Thanks, Jim! I hope that they will help people be able to write them. Bye Spheric!
<robin> And kudos to you, Z for coping with all of this away from your home computer turf!
<Spheric> see you on the 8th
<@zette> Grin. It's been odd -- different computers each night and all that. But it worked out.
<@zette> I will have this transcript up tonight.
Thanks to everyone who came to the classes! It was fun! See you on Wednesday!
zette:
This is a midway class just to see how people are doing on their short stories, what problems they're having, and what they might need to do to push the story on to the end.
zette:
Probably the hardest obstacle to get past in writing any story isn't the opening... it's the dreaded middle of the story. You've started things going, you know how it's going to end... but how do you get there?
zette:
This is a test for pictures coming up...
zette:
Well, that didn't work. How odd. It always does in the other one.
JenStClair:
Even smilies won't work.
NOTE: THEY DO, UNFORTUNATELY, WORK IN THE TRANSCRIPT...
zette:
Nope. No big deal.
JimMills:
I'll have to ask Holly about that. There may be a switch she can set.
zette:
So, have all of you been writing a short story yet? I talked to Cailin, and I know how she's doing. What about the rest of you?
JenStClair:
I've been trying to finish one I started a long time ago. Does that count?
zette:
Smilies won't work? It's a miracle!
zette:
That counts. Did you have a sticking point?
Cailin:
:P
JimMills:
Not really, Z. I have a story idea, but I'm having trouble developing it into any kind of story at all.
JenStClair:
The middle, of course. Or, rather, the beginning of the middle, even.
JenStClair:
I didn't even get past page... let me see.
zette:
I see a lot of people get stuck there -- short stories and novels. I think it's because they start thinking "I'm in the middle of the story. The fun stuff happened at the opening, the exciting stuff is at the end. This is boring."
zette:
Wrong attitude to have. There should be no boring parts, of course. If the middle is slow, then you need to throw in more trouble. Trouble that comes between the hero and the end, but is a natural block, not something artificial just to get action moving.
JenStClair:
four.
JenStClair:
That's true. I think part of my problem was that I wasn't quite sure what kind of trouble she'd run in to.
JimMills:
Z - you're quoting from the Handbook of Short Story Writing, aren't you?
zette:
In cases like this, the horrible outline can really help. Write down a couple lines for what you have in the opening. Then skip a bunch of lines and write a couple lines for the ending. ALWAYS have an ending in mind. Then see what naturally would fall in there.
zette:
No, I'm not. Do they say that? Who wrote it? I'll have to find it!
zette:
Don't work out long details, just try to find a few little incidents that you can grow into real trouble.
JimMills:
High Middle by Dwight V. Swain. Almost word for word. It's in the Handbook of Short Story Writing Volume II.
JenStClair:
(She's quoting from The Idiot's Guide to Short Story Writing, of course.<g>)
zette:
That's funny! Ha, I must be doing something right!
JimMills:
(lol Jen... I just reviewed the book I mentioned. That's why it's fresh in my mind.)
JenStClair:
I think that's one of the reasons I don't write many short stories. If they don't come to me as a whole, I don't ever finish them.
zette:
I have read some of Swain's other work. Maybe I caught some of it from there.
zette:
You might, when you get an idea, jot down one page of outline, Jen. It might help you get from the opening to the ending without abandoning stories.
zette:
By the way, my personal rule is to NEVER abandon a story. Always write to a logical ending. Stories I thought were utter crap have turned out to have a workable base, and I've sold two or three of them. Also, you can learn a lot from a story that's gone 'wrong.' Trying to make it find a good ending is really educational.
JenStClair:
It might. I'll try to do that with this one I'm working on.
JenStClair:
I never abandon them. They just go in the backlog, which I'm attempting to clean up currently.
zette:
I have a 'finish it in one year' rule. That keeps me from having things sit in files for years, pretending that they'll be finished.
zette:
Okay, Jim -- you aren't having luck starting your story? Why?
JenStClair:
I am trying to follow that rule. <g>
zette:
It's a rough rule sometimes, but it sure gives me a lot of material to put out and work with. (grin)
JimMills:
Well, I'm really not sure how to start it... I kinda have an idea, but I'm not sure where to go with it.
JimMills:
Here's what I have: SF - story idea - set in near future - background (to be related in the story): Nursing homes use complex life support system "beds" to maintain life, while the mind is put into "The Dreamery" where the aged can still enjoy active lives, talk with others, etc. The story comes in when a grandson needs to get some information from her grandfather. Visitors can enter the Dreamery via headsets that they put on... but there are some difficulties talking to someone in a dream. Let's call the characters Grandpa George and John, the grandson. John needs some information from Grandpa. Let's say he found some reference to a hidden treasure, the family is in hard times financially, and they need the money.
zette:
Do the outline I just said for Jen. And remember what I said about where to start stories -- right after the action has started is usually good, if you can find a place like that.
JenStClair:
Sounds neat, Jim.
JimMills:
I thought I'd start it with John going to talk to Grandpa, but I'm not at all sure how to do it.
rnw2000( ray ):
Jim... do you know what you're trying to say with the story?
zette:
Start with putting the headphones on, I suspect. Encountering something strange, perhaps, because he did it before someone in charge told him to. Have contact with the outside via the headphones, is what I'm saying.
zette:
Okay... You need to find your opening. I suspect once you do that, you'll start to see where the story should go.
JimMills:
The way I'd visualized it, he has to go into the dream to be in the Dreamery... it's more than VR. It's direct stimulation to and interaction with the brain. He'd have to leave the dream and wake up to talk to a tech.
zette:
So have someone go into the dream to find him, perhaps. Doing it illegally, in fact, would add to the story.
JimMills:
That's an idea...
zette:
Remember that you have to find obstacles. Obstacles that the reader will find exciting. Doing something illegal will sometimes do that, especially if it's something not even possible in our real world.
JimMills:
Good idea. I'll have to spend more time working on it. I've been putting a lot of time into the breakout class the past week or so.
JimMills:
And not so much time into other things.
zette:
Once you start thinking in terms of obstacles, they start to become clearer. It's even kind of fun sometimes.
JimMills:
Thanks.
zette:
I hope it helps. Sometimes talking out problems like this can give you new ideas.
JenStClair:
You'd better believe it, Zette!
zette:
So who else is having opening or middle problems?
zette:
Or questions about short stories at all? This is really a chat session to see if there's anything any of you are having problems with.
Cailin:
I'm chickensh*t to start, I guess....
rnw2000( ray ):
I'm concerned that my MC isn't active enough... just watches the show & I was wondering if that might be OK (under certain circumstances)
zette:
Why? Really, why be afraid of words on paper? They aren't set in stone. Everything can be changed, unless you don't do anything at all, Cailin.
zette:
It depends on the story, Ray. Quite honestly, stories with little action are harder to sell because readers might be looking for something more. And it depends on the market.
zette:
It's unlikely that you'd be able to sell a story like that to an sf market, for instance. They're generally big on action.
rnw2000( ray ):
I did not mean to talk out of turn. I thought Cailin meant "I am afraid to be the first one" not afraid to start the story
zette:
No problem, Ray.
rnw2000( ray ):
so, I'll wait my turn
zette:
I think Cailin doesn't want to say much. (grin)
rnw2000( ray ):
Cailin... I have a trick for getting started
JenStClair:
Even short stories have to start somewhere, Cailin. <g>
rnw2000( ray ):
You just start typing what you see happening. Don't worry about telling the story right, or with the right words, just start putting on paper what you see in your head.
rnw2000( ray ):
(Then later, you can go back and work it into good fiction) But once you get a few sentences in... You may find yourself loosening up and "writing")
zette:
Just always remember that you are the only one who has to see anything you write -- until you're ready to show others, and you can never disappoint yourself if you are willing to keep working.
zette:
That's a good way to start, Ray.
rnw2000( ray ):
hehe... and I have a motto (which I've written on a sign for myself) "I'm only trying to tell a story")
JenStClair:
Mottos are fine things to have. That's a good one.
rnw2000( ray ):
Which implies... I'm not trying to sell fiction, nor to win awards, nor to become famous, etc
zette:
The more stories you start, the less trouble they are, too. After awhile, you can get a feel for just hitting the keyboard at a run.
zette:
Mine is "Write for the love of writing."
zette:
If you're in it to be famous, rich, etc... Well, you're either in for a long wait or a real disappointment.
JimMills:
(even Stephen King started out just telling stories.)
zette:
I think every writer does. And my 'for the love of writing' isn't the only answer. Some people aren't motivated by esoteric stuff like that.
JenStClair:
Mine is "You don't define yourself by what you have to do to make a living, but by what you want to do... But you know, if you can do what you want to do and make a living, that's all the better, isn't it?"
JenStClair:
<g>
zette:
LOL!
zette:
Okay, back to the short story problems....
zette:
Sometimes just finding that opening scene is really difficult, especially for the first few stories. Try to find where some action starts, or something mysterious happens. Look at the 'first line' exercises, too. Those are often great ways to see how stories should open.
Cailin:
Sorry I got quiet -- I had to lay down for a second.
zette:
Well, you'll have to see all our great advice in the transcript. (grin)
zette:
Hope you feel better!
Cailin:
Thanks.
JimMills:
I've had days like that, C.
JenStClair:
I've started many stories with the first line exercises.
zette:
(I am so pleased not to have the smiley faces!)
zette:
I've done that for a few years -- gathered a few hundred first lines that I wrote in journals, and then found one that sparked an idea again. It's great when you're behind on the short story dare. (sigh)
rnw2000( ray ):
Is this Q&A time?
zette:
Ask away.
zette:
(And ask anything you want to know, JLeeja!)
JLeeja:
Thanks. I'm learning a lot just listening in. <G>
rnw2000( ray ):
Frustrated... I cannot post
zette:
There you are!
zette:
I had a problem a little earlier.
JenStClair:
It worked that time!
rnw2000( ray ):
My main character doesn't DO too much, but she is 'there' when all the doo-doo comes down...
rnw2000( ray ):
So I thought the interest (for the reader) in this story would be her take on the events that happen
zette:
Okay, does that mean she's a passive MC? Passive MC's are not good main characters. Is there something she CAN do, either for good or bad, which will at least make it appear as though she's more than a potted plant in the room? (Exaggeration, of course, but you get the idea.)
rnw2000( ray ):
mmhmm... she does a few things, but toward HER goal (which I thought would be good) but the real SF/F elements just happen around her
zette:
One rule that everyone needs to consider -- potted plants do not make good main characters. The bug eating it is far more interesting. (grin)
JenStClair:
Unless the potted plant is the plant that ate dirty socks, that is.
zette:
Working toward her goal is good, but can you tie them together? Braid them in some way, so that what she does has a reaction in the story?
JimMills(((Hmmm... The Potted Plant... the story of an intelligent plant that invades Earth... oh no! It's The Little Shop of Horrors!))):
LOL Jen!
zette:
There are always exceptions, Jen. That's what makes writing so much fun. (grin)
JenStClair:
(It's actually a children's book.<g>)
JenStClair:
That's true, zette.
rnw2000( ray ):
Okay. She does things (toward her goal) which puts her in position to see the events that shape the world (the reason I'm writing this story) ... I don't know if it's enough Action on her part though.
zette:
Ray, if you can find things for her to do that are in sync with your outside forces -- mirrors them, or goes against them, I think that might work.
rnw2000( ray ):
okay... This piece is 3000 words, so I guess therez room for other stuff to happen, eh?
zette:
Then have her goal in complete opposition with something that is going to happen. Force her to work for her goal against something else in the story. A character always needs opposition.
zette:
Oh yes, you have lots of room yet!
rnw2000( ray ):
Good advice
zette:
Thanks. (grin)
JenStClair:
Time for me to head on out. Very informative, Zette!
zette:
Thanks, Jen! Next class is the 14th, by the way!
zette:
And I expect people here to have stories by then. (grin)
JenStClair:
Cool. Should be able to do that one as well.
zette:
Talk to you later!
zette:
More questions? Thoughts?
zette:
Problems?
zette:
Don't make me go back and do more web work!
JimMills:
lol Z... I'm working on my outline.
zette:
Good!
Cailin:
I have to go so that my husband can use the computer for a while.
zette:
I'm sure I'll see you later, Cailin!
zette:
Losing people! How about you two? Anything to ask or say?
rnw2000( ray ):
so, zette. In my passive-ish MC story, I'm afraid to get too much more 'into it' with this story, because it will explode into a novel (I know we already talked about limiting the time line)
zette:
Don't let it. You are in control, even if it doesn't seem that way. And here's a secret -- write the short story, and then write the novel, if you still feel the need for it. But make yourself do something short first.
zette:
If nothing else, tell yourself it's a section of the novel. It has to have an ending, that's all.
rnw2000( ray ):
The MC's goals conflict with the Big-Baddie's goals, but it may not become evident in this 3000 words & if I try to explain how I will need a bunch more scenes
zette:
And sometimes short stories are great world building exercises for novels.
zette:
You have to do whatever it takes to make the short story 'right.' But look at your 'bunch of scenes' and see if you couldn't combine them into one or two with more punch.
rnw2000( ray ):
Okay... good idea.
JLeeja:
I think I'm having a hard time getting past my first scene. I have a couple of things that might happen, but I'm having trouble deciding which or when.
zette:
A short story generally doesn't need more than one or two confrontations. Just keep that in mind. And the larger confrontation should be just before the ending.
zette:
Choices are always harder to deal with than no ideas at all!
zette:
Maybe try the outline system and follow each choice a few steps down, and see which leads to the better, more exciting story.
rnw2000( ray ):
Are the timelines short (in short stories)?
zette:
Or at least the one that's more fun for you to write. (grin)
zette:
Almost always, Ray -- but there are exceptions. It depends on the story.
JLeeja:
(It's also too hot. It was 102 today and my air conditioner's broken.) I like that. Thanks.
JimMills:
Z: Where do you want us to post our stories? Or do we email them to you?
zette:
The general rule I use is that a short story is an adventure, not the entire quest. One step in someone's life -- an exciting step, that will change their life, but we don't have to see those changes. The changes should be evident by the end of the story, that's all.
zette:
We'll post on the board attached to this chat, but right before the next class.
JimMills:
k - how long before?
zette:
Nasty hot weather with on AC, Jleeja. That sounds miserable.
zette:
This isn't going to be a critique group, Jim, so it doesn't have to be more than a few hours before. I'll post when we're ready. We might yet do a critique group, but I don't want people feeling rushed to get things critiqued for others when they should be writing their own stories.
zette:
After the last class we'll see how everyone is doing.
JimMills:
k - we can always post in our other crit groups, too, right?
zette:
Sure!
JimMills:
<g>
zette:
They're your stories. This is just to get you moving on them, and help you define the boundaries of a short story.
JimMills:
k
zette:
Any other problems, JLeeja?
JLeeja:
How little is too little description? I've noticed I don't bother with it much.
zette:
Ah, that's a tough one. You have to be able to give a feel for the 'world' where the story takes place, but you don't want to overpower a short story with too much.
zette:
Immediate details, closest to the MC, are usually the most important. Working out from there becomes less important, at least in my opinion.
zette:
We are not going to live long in this world, so we don't need to know as much to ground us as we would in a novel.
zette:
Focusing on the unusual is often helpful in a case like this.
zette:
I'll tell you a secret I do for adding sensory details to stories. I start at the last page and work my way forward, adding color, sight, sound or touch to every page.
zette:
By starting at the end, I don't 'see' the story as I read it. It doesn't flow progressively forward, so I don't just slip into what my mind imagines is there, but might not be.
JimMills:
What about scent and taste?
zette:
Yes, those too.
zette:
Something from one of them on every page can really give a story more life.
JimMills:
Does a short story have to have a surprise twist at the end?
zette:
No. Why should it have to? Has every short story you've read had one?
zette:
A story of any sort should have a logical ending, twist or not.
JimMills:
No, but I've heard and read some that say it has to be...
JimMills:
Hi Holly!
zette:
That's silly, when you think about it. If you don't read stories that have twist endings, it can't be true. Read the current Analog or Asimov's and you'll see what I mean.
zette:
Hi Holly!
hollylisle:
Hi. Just checking out the HTML. It was enabled.
hollylisle:
zette:
It wasn't working here. Wonder why. Not a big deal, just meant no pictures tonight.
hollylisle:
Hmmmm. I wonder why those aren't working. Everything for the board is enabled.
hollylisle:
How was class?
zette:
On the other hand, no smiley faces, either. There is a god...
hollylisle:
<snarf!>
zette:
I hope it went well.
JimMills:
Fairly well... I was stuck, but I'm working on the story now...
zette:
Everyone remember, next class is the 14th. You should have most, if not all, of a short story by then!
zette:
Okay, this is it people. Last call for questions before I take this stuff and make a transcript to post!
<@Zette> There we are! Okay, let's get going!
<@Zette> First, how is everyone doing on their stories?
<CailinHe> Quite well, as far as I've gone. I'm nearing the highest point of the story.
<@Zette> That's great Cailin! I know you were having trouble getting started, so I'm glad it's going well!
<@Zette> I assume it's managing to stay a short story?
<Cailin> I'd better not have any more trouble -- I've promised three more!
<Cailin> Yes.
<@Zette> Once you get the feel for them, they get easier. How about anyone else?
<rnw2000> so... I should confess that I had started a day before the first day of class. I've finished one, and 50% through a second (3000 words each)
<@Zette> Not bad!
<rnw2000> I'd decided to write a novel one short story @ a time... so my 2 shortz are related...
<@Zette> I finished one for the class, but I have to confess that I'm not happy with it. Which will bring us to rewriting -- something we'll cover a little today.
<@Zette> I set a lot of short stories in the same universe, but they're rarely related.
<@Zette> Let's look at the question of markets, though.
<rnw2000> so... I guess 'same universe' would have been more accurate ... sorry
<@Zette> There's always a question of whether you should write 'to a market.' That means to choose a magazine and try to write something specifically for that magazine.
<@Zette> That's easier to do in nonfiction than in fiction.
<@Zette> You can get a feel for what an editor wants, of course -- but there are problems with trying to mimic some trend. Quite often, those stories were bought (for the major magazines) a year before. By the time you read them, the editor is already on to the next trend.
<@Zette> And, as an added problem, everyone else has read the stories and are trying to write the latest 'nano/cyber/whatever' trend story as well.
<@Zette> Quite often, it's far better to not consciously try to write something just because you happen to see a lot of it just then. If you truly come up with a neat idea, by all means go for it -- but just be aware that there can be problems.
<@Zette> That doesn't mean you shouldn't study the market. Studying will help you with more general problems -- do these people take first person stories? Does the editor say in his guidelines that he hates stories with talking animals? Always things to know.
<rnw2000> is this better/different from Writer's Market?
<@Zette> This is an excellent book for fiction writers. If you are going to do nonfiction, you might as well go for the full Writer's Market -- but this one is a little cheaper, and covers only fiction.
<@Zette> And you don't really have to buy one every single year. Every two or three ought to be enough, though there will be a lot of changes.
<@Zette> As it happens, I have both. But then I have the children's market one, and probably a couple others as well.
<Cailin> I've seen that. It's easier to find the information in it than in the full Writer's Market.
<@Zette> Yes, it is. I use it far more often that the full version.
<@Zette> And, by the way, it's a great way to get ideas. You can kind of thumb through the sections, look at what different editors want --and sometimes that will trigger an idea.
<@Zette> So, if you don't plan to write articles or nonfiction pieces of other types, this is the way to go.
<@Zette> Notice, also, that they are starting to list electronic markets. We're going to see that grow, especially as the e-markets become better funded.
<@Zette> Knowing your market isn't always possible when you're trying to place a story that's been rejected at all the markets you do know. This, at least, allows you to explore some of the other places, even if you can't get a copy of the actual magazine.
<@Zette> And stories will be rejected. Many times, and for reasons that quite often have nothing to do with how well written they are. It can be rejected because the editor just bought something close to it, or he doesn't like short male lead characters, or he has a headache that day and nothing looks good.
<rnw2000> how often, if ever, do you re-submit?
<@Zette> Remember that the person on the other side of the submission is really no different than the rest of us. Good and bad days, tastes that are going to be different than yours -- any number of things can have a bearing on that decision.
<@Zette> Never to the same place, unless they specifically ask for a rewrite.
<rnw2000> Aw man, really? (Does that go the same for agents? I know, beyond the scope of the class, sorry)
<@Zette> To other places -- as many as you can find until it sells. However, if you keep getting rejections that say the same thing, it might be wise to look at what they're saying.
<@Zette> Yes, it does. You can always send them something new, though.
<@Zette> Or, for an agent... you might say that you've done a major rewrite (if you have) and would they look at it again.
<rnw2000> Okay... I've just been rejected @ the query-letter level by every reputable agent... <shrug> gotta write another novel, i guess
<rnw2000> ... but come on. Back to short stories
<@Zette> Go for other agents as well.
<@Zette> Okay. Short stories. Cover letters...
<Cailin> Should you get an agent when you start selling short stories, or is that just for novels? rnw2000 sorry. I really didn't want to side-track your class.
<@Zette> That's all right. It doesn't hurt to get a few other answers. I don't expect you guys to do nothing but write short stories, after all.
<@Zette> And you do know that agents aren't interested in short story sales, right? rnw2000 yeah. I'm writing shortz to get 'traction' for my novel, if possible rnw2000 I'm very goal oriented <g>
<@Zette> If you have not written at least one novel, don't try to get an agent. They make their money on book sales, and they aren't going to make anything on short stories. Not enough money there to worry about.
<@Zette> Anyway, cover letters. Cover letters for short stories are a little different than those for novels.
<@Zette> If you have other sales, you can mention them. If they are e-publications, and you're trying to sell to print -- don't bother to mention them, though.
<@Zette> It's going to be a couple more years before any of the ezine mags have enough of a reputation to mean anything to print people.
<@Zette> Be sure you know the name of the editor when you send the story. It shows that you've done at least the minimum amount of research.
<rnw2000> Where does one get the editors name? From the front cover of the mag?
<rnw2000> (Isn't that reaching too high, to take the person who is named in the magazine? Wont he/she have minions?)
<@Zette> There is a masthead in all magazines. They will say who is the editor, or the fiction editor, of whatever. You can also get them from the Writer's Market books.
<@Zette> No, that's what an editor does.
<@Zette> You address material to F&SF to Gordon Van Gelder, to Asimov's to Gardner Dozois
<rnw2000> ... you read my mind...
<@Zette> If, in the magazine or the listing in Writer's Market, they say someone else, you send it to them.
<@Zette> The body of the letter shouldn't be much more than something like this: "Enclosed is my science fiction short story, Triad. The story is approximately 3,300 words long."
<@Zette> You can do a one line description if you like -- but NEVER go on about the story in the cover letter.
<rnw2000> No full-story synopsis? Just a one-sentence pigeonholing?
<@Zette> Yes. These are SHORT stories, not novels. They don't want to know the story before they read it. They don't need to.
<@Zette> No synopsis, no outlines -- it's one of the best parts of writing short stories. (grin)
<@Zette> And never do paragraphs about what inspired you to write this story. Again, it's not important. The editor doesn't care what got you to write the story, they're just going to look at the story and find out if they like it.
<@Zette> Another thing to consider -- tell the editor that the manuscript is disposable.
<Jenny> They prefer that?
<@Zette> In this day, where we can just print out another copy, it makes no sense to pay to have a manuscript returned.
<@Zette> Yes, I've heard that they do. It's far easier to put a rejection slip in an SASE and drop it in the mail. And what are you going to do with a manuscript that has fingerprint marks, coffee stains, etc.? And they do, sometimes, come back that way.
<@Zette> One thing I've learned is to put a postcard in the submission package. The postcard is addressed to me and on the back it says 'please drop in the mail when you receive this package.' That lets me know that it really did get there. Always make sure there is a stamp on it, over course.
<@Zette> You can buy packages of plain white postcards for your printer. They're easy to do in groups, and save a lot of hair pulling later.
<@Zette> Questions so far?
<rnw2000> Um. On the subject of 'knowing the market'... how can you discover if mild profanity is acceptable? Write to the market ahead of time?
<rnw2000> I know you could read a few issues, but just cuz it's not there, doesn't mean they are screening it out.
<@Zette> Read the magazine, if you can. If not... send the story and let them decide. They'll let you know.
<@Zette> If you think the story is good for the market, always give it a try.
<rnw2000> okay.
<@Zette> And check the Writer's Market listing -- quite often they will say 'no profanity' if that's their absolute rule.
<@Zette> Send for guidelines to any magazines orr check on line for the guidelines. Quite a few places have them here, now.
<rnw2000> And "no multiple submissions" is fairly standard, right?
<@Zette> The difference between a short story submission and a novel submission is that you don't have to try and get the editor interested in the story before they look at it. In a novel, a synopsis and outline has to do that work. In a short story submission, the story has to sell itself.
<@Zette> Yes, that is very common. And it can be taken two ways...
<@Zette> First, don't submit the same story to multiple magazines at the same time. If it's really good (and you honestly think it is, don't you? Otherwise go rewrite it again), then you could get more than one acceptance. Which editor are you going to piss off by saying you sold it elsewhere?
<@Zette> The other one is sending more than one story to the same editor. This isn't really forbidden -- but why would you compete with yourself for that one open spot?
<@Zette> Don't get in a hurry, in other words. This is not a get rich quick sort of job. Look professional, above all else.
<@Zette> Oh! One more thing when submitting! Make sure you know these things about the magazine: What genres they accept and what their word count limitations are!
<Jenny> Is the Microsoft Word word count good for that?
<rnw2000> good question
<@Zette> I hear that it isn't, but I think that's more important for novel than short story. I've always used it, but there are other ways to do the count. I can't give you the formula right now, but it's up on various pages. Check out the SFWA site for it.
<rnw2000> So, I've been asking everyone how they do word count (maybe it is different for novels)
<rnw2000> but it seems that 250 words per page (1 inch all around, Courier 12) is the average/consensus
<rnw2000> (and double spaced).
<@Zette> That works to some degree. However, dialogue will have far less words per page than description, and can throw your count way off.
<rnw2000> Totally true, but typesetters (I'm told) don't care actual word count, but how much space in their magazine it will take up & this is what they are estimating by word count.
<@Zette> Also, paper print medium publishers are going to be far more worried about how you do that count than epublishers.
<@Zette> Maybe, but magazine editors are also paying you per word. They are NOT going to be happy if you have badly over counted, because you have a lot of dialogue.
<rnw2000> hehe <g>
<rnw2000> "I estimate this is four million words!"
<@Zette> But still, my suggestion is to keep an eye on places like SFWA, where they will post 'official' word on material like this.
<rnw2000> good point.
<@Zette> And, if you happen to get lucky enough to meet with specific editors, ask them how they want it done.
<@Zette> And check their guidelines. They'll often tell you straight out how to do word count for their publication.
<Jenny> So how do you meet with specific editors?
<@Zette> In the SF/Fantasy genre -- you go to conventions.
<rnw2000> Slightly off-topic, but what are the must-attend conventions within the sf/f genre?
<@Zette> I've met (but they wouldn't remember me) Gardner Dozois and Gorden Van Gelder. Also many epublication editors, some of whom would (and do) remember me.
<@Zette> Any in your area that have good guests
<@Zette> There are not absolute 'must attend' ones. There are a lot of really good ones. I've gone to conventions all over the country, small and large.
<@Zette> If you can afford it, go to WorldCon or World Fantasy Con, if only for the chance to see how really large and wonderful the genres are.
<@Zette> And the panels are wonderful at the larger conventions!
<@Zette> Though, to be honest, I've seen some really good ones at the smaller cons as well.
<Jenny> How expensive are they?
<@Zette> Depends on the convention. WorldCon is $180 to get in -- no, now it's up to $200, past prereg date. Hotel room for four or five days, plane fare -- it all adds up.
<@Zette> A local convention will usually only run about $30 for the weekend, and if you are close enough, you don't have to stay in a hotel.
<rnw2000> But, is WorldCon the kind of place that's wanna-be friendly... or is it a professional's only club?
<@Zette> It is a gathering of fans. There are lots of writer-panels, and a writer's workshop. It's very friendly.
<rnw2000>
<@Zette> The number of people at WorldCon is usually several thousand, by the way.
<@Zette> A local con would be lucky to get five hundred.
<@Zette> World Fantasy Con limits the number of people who can attend to 750. It may be more now, but you pretty much have to pre-register for that one.
<@Zette> By the way, going to conventions and meeting 'pros' is no guarantee of getting published. There are a lot of writers out there. You have to do it by talent.
<@Zette> And very hard work.
<Jenny> I don't think there's any guarantee of getting published, ever.
<@Zette> No, there really isn't. But people who are willing to work at it have a much better chance than those who think that it's easy money.
<@Zette> Anything else any of you want to ask?
<rnw2000> So, when submitting a story to a market, is the package: an SASE, the 3-4 sentence cover letter, and the full story?
<rnw2000> (and maybe that postcard you mentioned?)
<@Zette> That's about it, yes!
<rnw2000> okay. Thanks
<@Zette> Oh, and make sure the SASE is addressed to you. It's easy, especially when you're excited about submitting something, to put the publisher's address on the envelope. That won't help. (grin)
<@Zette> Ah! One more thing! If you are sending a cover letter for an SF story DO NOT CALL IT SCI-FI!
<rnw2000> uh... okay. why?
<@Zette> Some editors have no problem with this, but several (and readers as well) consider Sci-fi to be the media side of the genre, and it's often used as a derogatory term for a badly written SF (or science fiction) story.
<rnw2000> Okay... is it okay to say "here is my 3300 word science fiction story" .. or must the science fiction label be avoided?
<@Zette> It may not make a difference to most people, but it's better not to take the chance. Use SF or science fiction for the description. You can't go wrong with those.
<Cailin> Is "mythical fantasy" an acceptable description? rnw2000 okay... just the skiffy is potentially negative. I get it.
<@Zette> Science fiction is the proper term. They buy science fiction. They don't buy Sci-fi (which is, in this case, badly written Star Trek/Star Wars stories with the names filed off and no better technology.)
<@Zette> Oh yes, Cailin. That's a good description.
<Jenny> I don't know what it means. What's 'mythical' fantasy?
<Cailin> Thanks! That's what I call what I write, but I wasn't sure what everyone else calls it.
<rnw2000> So... Cailin's plan worked... you'll have to read it to find out
<Jenny> I guess so. <G>
<Cailin> It's fantasy writing that makes use of mythical elements. Charles de Lint and Terri Windling are the best of this field.
<@Zette> There are a lot of different designations for types of fantasy. You can just say fantasy and be safe, but that's not a bad description as well.
<Cailin> If I say mythopoetics I get a bunch of blank looks.
<Jenny> Um...I still don't know what that means. Specific, extant myths?
<Cailin> I draw heavily from Celtic myth. Others use Native American
<Cailin> Charles used both in the same novel more than once, and it came off brilliantly.
<Jenny> Oh. Got it.
<@Zette> One last thing we're going to cover is just a little bit on the dreaded art of rewriting.
<@Zette> I know that quite a few writers really dread rewriting. They get bored. They've already told the story and they don't want to rework it again. There are no spelling errors, and the grammar is good, so why bother, right?
<@Zette> No story is ever perfect in the first draft. Or in the second... or ever, really.
<@Zette> However, you will be amazed (and often appalled) at what you can find in your story if you do two things.
<@Zette> First -- set the story aside for a couple weeks, at the very least.
<@Zette> Go on and write other things. Don't try to rewrite the moment you finish.
<@Zette> Second, if you find (like me) that you have trouble getting detail into a story, try this trick: Start at the very last page and work your way forward, putting some bit of description on every page.
<@Zette> Sound, scent, touch, taste, sight -- whatever. Colors, textures -- but start at the end. This keeps you from reading through the story scene by scene, and seeing things in your mind that are not there on the paper.
<Cailin> That makes sense. {flushes guiltily}
<@Zette> Oh, it's an easy one to mess up on. I HAVE to rewrite in this way. I get caught up in the story, and I know what it looks like -- but I don't realize that it's not there on the paper.
<@Zette> Or on the screen. (grin) I started back in the dark ages, with manual typewriters...
<@Zette> Any questions?
<Jenny> Regarding a critique group--do you put up the rough draft or the two-weeks-later draft?
<@Zette> I'd put up the best draft you do. Two weeks is fine. Jim just wanted a group, so I thought I better get it up.
<Jenny> I meant any critique group.
<Cailin> Is it for the stories we worked on in class, or can we put up others?
<rnw2000> Jenny... probably put up what you want others to read
<@Zette> Ah! With critique groups, I would always do the same -- always the best you can make it before you give it to others. Think of them as first step editors -- you want to present your best work.
<@Zette> For stories in the class, Cailin. At least for now.
<@Zette> Any other short story questions? rnw2000 thank you. no more questions.
<@Zette> (Grin)
<@Zette> Well, we seem to have gotten through all the classes!
<rnw2000> Ah. What's next? Will we form a support group?
<Cailin> And nicely, too.
<Jenny> <applause> Thank you for having it. <G>
<@Zette> I just hope it was helpful. I've never done a class thingy before.
<@Zette> I think we have a support group. It's called Holly Lisle's Forward Motion for Writers. (grin) rnw2000 Thank you Zette. Great job. Great class.
<@Zette> I suppose now we should all go off and write something... (grin)
<@zette> Okay! Welcome to the Keeping it Short Class!
<bklynWriter> ready. music queued
<@zette> Feel free to ask questions at any time, but try to keep them at least vaguely in the same area of what I'm covering. I should also note that I have trouble reading this chat. The print is far too small for me (I have lost focus in one eye a few years ago), so I sometimes don't read a question properly. If I don't seem to be answering what you ask, point that out to me.
<bklynWriter> is there any way to enlarge the text?
<@zette> Some of the material may seem a little basic for most of you, but it doesn't hurt to go over even the basics. So we're going to start with what a short story is in relationship to longer works, specifically novel length.
<@zette> (not that I've found, Deb. I've tried!)
<@zette> First, look at short stories as an incident, not a history -- an adventure, rather than a full quest.
<@zette> We don't need to know the Main Character's full life story. We don't want to know it. (From now on Main Character will be MC. I'm lazy...)
<bklynWriter> are you saying that no backstory is needed?
<@zette> A short story will focus on a defining moment in time -- not just the adventure, but the highest point of tension in the adventure.
<@zette> No, not exactly. Just that you are not going to give as much detail as you would in a novel. The things you need to stress are the parts that will be important to the short story.
<@zette> If the character grew up the daughter of a seamstress, and goes on to be a warrior -- you aren't going to stress how she learned to make lace cuffs. You'll stress her fist fights with her brothers.
<@zette> I've changed the picture on the board. Can you see it?
<Valerie> yup.
<Gayle> yes
<bklynWriter> i see it
<@zette> It's a matter of picking your details to compliment the story you write. And that's sometimes hard, because you want the reader to know so much about the character you created -- but for short stories, the reader usually isn't as interested as they would be in a novel.
<@zette> This is just a possible way to look at a novel plot. The character gains and loses things at different points. There' a lot of material to be covered there.
<@zette> But within this plot line there are several short stories lurking. One might be how he learns magic, gains some power, and then loses his family, and finds magic isn't going to help.
<@zette> The trick with short stories is to find a limited story -- a shorter amount of time that you'll cover.
<Suzanne> I am just checking to see if anything is coming through . . .
<@zette> If you don't see the graphic, don't worry. It will be in the transcript afterwards.
<@zette> When you look for short story ideas, one of the hardest tricks is not to let it grow into novel length. That happens to me a lot. It took me quite a while before I found how to limit them.
<Gayle> so there is hope for some of us....
<bklynWriter> every novel I'm working on started off a short story
<@zette> The important first step is to not look too far beyond the incident that you first see. A little background is important, of course, but not so much that you bury the incident in details that would belong in a novel, but not here.
<@zette> I know that problem. There's a couple things you can do to stop yourself. The first is to always remember that a short story can always be expanded into a novel. And that short stories make great background material for novels. You aren't 'not writing a novel.' You're just writing it in shorter pieces. (grin)
<bklynWriter> that's what I'm trying to do, but its already over 10K words
<@zette> The graphic should be a little different now. This is how to find the short story in all that novel clutter.
<bklynWriter> and the "one incident" hasn't even happened yet
<@zette> You're already up to novelette size. (grin)
<@zette> You are, obviously, starting way too early for a short story. Can you see the changed graphic with the start/end marks on it?
<Valerie> yes.
<Gayle> yes
<@zette> If I were to write this story (and actually, I did the last time), I would start with the character just learning that his love has been kidnapped. This puts the story right into the action. And end -- which is the second hardest part to find -- right after she's rescued.
<@zette> For the background, I would tend to make the character a bit mysterious. In this case, he was living far from his original home in a land that shunned magic. He'd given it up, after all, when he couldn't save his family. So he has secrets. It's all right to keep those secrets from the reader, at least for a bit.
<@zette> Here is one thing to always keep in mind when you write a short story -- people who read short stories are not in the same frame of mind as those who read novels. They're looking for a quick dip into an adventure, not to be totally immersed in an alien culture.
<bklynWriter> ok. I've started with my MC finding out she needs to arrange her own transport to Eden, where she is going to start a new job. The story is about her attempts at finding transportation
<@zette> Is that the story you want to tell, or is that the one you find yourself telling?
<bklynWriter> yes that is the story I want to tell, but I've gone into why she wants to leave earth, her background......ok I see now...too much info
<@zette> Exactly. You could tell us that in one paragraph, and the reader would be happy.
<@zette> In a short story, we don't need -- or want -- all the details. Good details that further the story, add depth to the world -- but not so much that it stops you from reaching the story itself.
<bklynWriter> I see
<@zette> What you have is a lot of great background material that you, as the writer, needs to know. It will affect what she does. But you can dole out any of that material in small pieces if you need it to explain a situation.
<@zette> Remember that you want to keep a tight reign on the story. Here are the official SFWA lengths for material: SFWA World Count lengths: Novel -- 40,000 and more ***Novella -- 17,500-39,999 ***novelette -- 7,500-17,499 ***Short Story -- 7,499 or shorter
<@zette> 7,499 looks like a lot of words to some people, but if you are a born novelist, like me, it looks frighteningly small.
<bklynWriter> zette...are short stories more difficult for you? Keeping it short?
<@zette> Yes. I have a very hard time keeping it short. Look at my current story dare 'short stories.' I think there are two that are novellas, and one that wanted to be a novel.
<@zette> Or was that the last dare? They start running together after awhile.
<Gayle> I have problems keeping within the requested 3K of most magazines...
<@zette> 3k and 2k are really hard to write to. I've managed it a few times, but mostly by going in and just cutting and cutting and cutting. I once cut a 15,000 story down to 3,000 -- and sold it.
<@zette> Which probably says a lot about how over-written my original work is.
<@zette> But again, the trick is usually to limit your focus of a story. If you have someone who is going to get into a duel at noon, don't start with breakfast. You might mention it -- but don't linger there. Start as close to the main action as you can.
<@zette> Another trick is to do the dreaded outline. They really are good ways to map out exactly where you want to go, and to limit the defining incident from growing.
<bklynWriter> how many scenes = a short story?
<@zette> There is not set number of scenes. I've seen good single scene ones, and stories that go on from world to world. It depends on the story.
<@zette> Do any of you have trouble coming up with ideas for stories. Not just short stories, but stories in general.
<bklynWriter> YES!
<Valerie> I have trouble...
<Anon_62> Yes, especially short stories!
<Gayle> not really...just the research to make them sound real
<Izunya> I have problems coming up with good ideas.
<@zette> That's one people often ask me -- how do I come up with short story ideas. I write 20 or more a year. Okay, here's a few things that work for me. First, to take Izunya's note -- don't tell yourself they aren't 'good' ideas. If there is something that catches your attention, play with it. There are no new ideas out there. It's just how each writer approaches it that makes them unique.
<bklynWriter> I don't know how to distill an idea down to short story length
<@zette> Having trouble getting stories to stay short is the usual problem. But again, this is what you've got to stress -- INCIDENT, not WHOLE LIFE. That's a broad statement, and obviously there is a lot of leeway within it, but you can see the limitations.
<@zette> Gayle -- research is a problem, too. Have you written any short stories at all? Or many? Or do you have the ' get caught up in research and never write it' problem?
<@zette> I am character driven in both my writing and my reading. This has some serious problems all it's own, but I think that it might be the easier way to write stuff. (Or maybe that's just my personal prejudice.)
(I lost part of the transcript at this point, and I'll just quickly note a few things we covered, which was POV. I did suggest that people take a look at the current issue of Vision and read the Rob Chilson interview. He has some interesting points to make about how people approach the presentation of stories in the day of television. http://www.lazette.net/vision/Issue6/Interview.htm )
In Omniscient POV, you know everything that everyone is thinking and doing. This is often called head-hopping, and it can be one of the most confusing ways to tell a story, even though it looks easy to the writer. Unless it's very well done, a reader can easily get lost in leaps, and not know who's head they've ended up in. Another problem is that this POV lacks many of the triggers for tension. We know what everyone is thinking. No surprises -- and the only way to keep secrets is by not going into someone's head. That can be pretty obvious after a while.
First Person creates a very tight, immediate story. You can only present exactly what the POV character sees and knows. For some reason, I find that the majority of my short stories are in first person, and my novels are in third.
<zette> Hello?
<Gayle> hello
<zette> ARGH. Got dropped. But I did save the transcript! (Well most of it, as I found out later.)
<BklynWriter> did everyone get knocked out?
<Valerie> Nope; I stayed.
<BklynWriter> Q: do editors prefer 1st person?
<Gayle> no...
<Izunya> I'm here.
<Valerie> I'm sorry, but I have to run. I'll be back to check the transcripts. Any homework?
<zette> Okay, just a couple more little notes! Third person POV -- this is often the best. It allows you to stay in one head and one POV for a long period -- avoiding the head-hopping problem of Omniscient -- but allows you to also go to someone else if you want to. You just must not jump from one to the other at random.
<Izunya> Is there a rule of thumb for how often you can move between heads in Third Person?
<zette> A problem with first person to keep in mind -- the narrator (the 'I' in the story) cannot keep a secret from the reader. Nor can he lie to the reader. We are in her head.
<zette> Deb -- no preference for POVs. They just like good solid stories, no matter what the POV.
<zette> In a short story, do it as few times as you can. It's always better to stay in one head.
<Izunya> Okay.
<zette> Here's another little bit. Try to limit the number of characters you introduce. You'll have 'extras' that pass through, but for the solid, core characters, don't give us a dozen characters for a 20-page story.
<BklynWriter> I have 2 major characters and a few not-so-major characters
<BklynWriter> mostly just people along the way of her journey
<zette> Do you people want to do homework? We can. Or we can go through the classes, and you can ask me questions about work you're doing.
<zette> That's good, Deb. We don't want the story to be sterile, but having too many characters with too much to remember about each one is another way to drag a short story down.
<BklynWriter> homework related to the stories we're currently working on would be good
<Izunya> I'm good either way. Most of the work I would ask about is actually in the editing phase.
<Gayle> I'm with Izunya
<zette> We'll be getting to that fairly quick, Izunya!
<BklynWriter> .
<zette> Let's do this -- if you want to, write out a few paragraphs on the story you want to tell (or are telling), and if you have specific problems with anything we covered today. Be sure to tell me the genre, too.
<BklynWriter> ok sounds good to me
<Izunya> That works.
<Gayle> sounds good
<zette> You can post that at .... ummm, that board where people post those things. (ack. Second in command of Forward motion, and I can never remember what boards cover which things...)
<Gayle> don't you still have the short story class thread up on one of the boards?
<Izunya> The Class Board, right? Should we have them up by a specific time?
<zette> Let me go find the board. brb!
<zette> Classroom work board! That's it! I'll put a message up and you can post to it.
<@zette> So welcome to the second class. My apologies for canceling the earlier one.
<BklynWriter> that's quite alright zette, we understand
<Anon_35> ping
<@zette> I'm afraid that the pictures just are not going to work right tonight either, but I think we can do without them.
<valerie1> Lost power and my machine bounced. I'm not really in here twice!
<@zette> Don't worry. Grin. Just makes it look all the more busy for me!
<@zette> The last thing we covered was the pov problem. Today we're going to start with choosing the best narrator.
<Gayle> thank you, thank you, thank you
<@zette> There are times when the 'hero' of the story is not the best story teller. Dr. Watson is a much better narrator than Holmes, because with Holmes there could be no surprises.
<@zette> Watson is a step outside, and can watch the action and allow Holmes to be mysterious. If we were in Holmes head, we'd be pretty bored. He knows everything. He's seldom surprised, etc.
<@zette> So sometimes you want to look at a secondary character as the person to tell the story. They can observe everything, but still allow your more important character to have secrets, and to do things that the reader doesn't always understand -- until they are later explained.
<@zette> That make sense to you guys?
<Gayle> yes
<valerie1> yup
<BklynWriter> yes...but
<@zette> Yes?
<BklynWriter> if the 2ndary character is not in every scene, aren't we missing something
<Suzanne> It makes sense, I just don't know if I am sophisticated enough to know when choosing something besides the hero is best.
<BklynWriter> ditto what Suzanne said
<@zette> That's where you have to look at the story and see if you NEED every scene. I'm not saying always go with a secondary character, by the way. Just take a look around and find out if you want a character a little outside to tell the tale.
<@zette> This is one of the things that needs practice. The best way to do it is look at a story that you're having trouble with. Maybe you're bored with the character. It may be that you have a story that needs to be told by someone else.
<@zette> I see most writers leap right in with the MC without ever considering any of the others. Sometimes it helps to just look around a little and see how the story might look from someone else's POV.
<Suzanne> What about back story when you are using another character?
<@zette> Depends on the story. It will not work for all stories, obviously. Sometimes you have to have the MC be the person who has the most stakes in the story.
<@zette> I don't often use the secondary character, but I have rescued stories by looking at it.
<Suzanne> what do you mean "looking at it?"
<@zette> By looking at the other characters and see if one of them can tell the story better. Sorry. I'm rattled tonight. Taking too many short cuts!
<@zette> What I'm really saying is don't limit yourself to always telling the story from the POV of the most important character. Most often that is the best way, but look at other possibilities too. It also opens up entirely new levels in a story, sometimes. How does what the most important character do affect others around her?
<@zette> Usually a story is told by the person who has the most to gain/lose by what happens. However, you can play with that a little. And this goes for first or third POVs -- it's all just how the story is focused.
<@zette> Okay, on to another section -- starting places!
<@zette> With novels, while you want to start with something interesting, you really have the chance to do things in a leisurely way compared to short stories. In a short story you want to start as close to the heart of the story as possible. No long leads, and that creates problems for people who are trying to introduce character/setting/story line.
<@zette> It's especially hard for those of us who are used to writing novels.
<@zette> With novels you might start out wide and focus in, like standing on a hill and slowly focusing down to the village, a home, a room, a person doing something. In a short story you pretty much want to start with that person.
<@zette> And, in fact, you want to start with that person already involved in whatever the story is about. This makes adding in the details more difficult.
<Suzanne> you can say that again. I tend to write pages and pages that get left on the cutting room floor.
<@zette> However, the truth is you aren't going to have as much detail in a short story as you would in a novel. We don't need to know the history of the world. We're not going to 'live' in that world long enough to care. What we need to know are the things that are immediate to the story being told.
<@zette> So detail of the room and what he's doing take on a lot of extra duty. They have to tell us what type of culture and 'age' we're looking at, as quickly as possible.
<Gayle> I figured out last night after think about it for a couple of days that I was attempting to cover too much ground in my short story...
<BklynWriter> yes I've been trying to squeeze a novel into a short story
<Gayle> but I would never have figured it out if I hadn't written the paragraph for you zette
<@zette> It's easy to do, Gayle. I have that problem all the time.
<@zette> I've read the paragraphs but not commented yet. I'll get to that after this class. Sorry. It's just been too troubled here for the last week.
<@zette> Squeezing in a novel's worth of stuff into a short story is a mistake a lot of people make.
<valerie1> So, is it possible to cover a whole lot of time in one short story? In the story I'm stuck on, I want to cover the lifespan of one girl (girlhood to grandmotherhood) to show something about the MC... is this too much?
<Gayle> can we revise our paragraphs first?
<@zette> Sure, go ahead.
<BklynWriter> I haven't posted yet, but will do so after class
<@zette> No, Valerie -- it's not too much. Any story can be told in a short story. You just have to be aware of what you want the story to do. You seem to know what you want.
<valerie1> well, mostly <grin>. If I really knew, I probably wouldn't be stuck!
<@zette> When you look at how much detail you want, think of it like a set of circles. On the outer circle we have the 'whole world' (which might mean universe, etc. depending on the story). We don't need to know very much about what's out there. The next circle are the lands and culture in which the story takes place. Culture, especially, can be shown by doing rather than explaining.
<@zette> Then the village -- show only as much as we need to know for the story, usually just the area that the character passes through. Save the riches details for the 'areas' in which the character moves and interacts with nature and others.
<valerie1> Shoot; I have to run. I'm looking forward to the transcript...
<@zette> Talk to you later, Valerie! And you can email me with questions!
<Izunya> See you, Valerie.
<@zette> If you love world builidng, and like to do all this detail stuff, consider writing several stories based in the same 'world' so that you can use more of the details that you love to create.
<Gayle> bye Valerie
<@zette> Remember that a few good details can do more for a story than layers of description of common things.
<@zette> Okay, back to the opening. Here is a way to limit the backstory that you have to tell before you get to the story you want to show.
<@zette> It's using the setting as history. Instead of starting out a story by saying that a meteorite killed someone on Main Street today, you start by saying that the third person this week was killed by a falling meteorite.
<@zette> That establishes the 'unusual' as common to this world. You can use that ploy in any number of ways. The fifth elf was murdered. The third godling was born to a peasant, etc.
<@zette> It allows you not to have to start with the first incident if your story is about how your MC solved (say) a series of crimes. We don't want to see too many pages of investigation that lead nowhere. You can give the reader those in summary, and go straight to the more exciting part -- perhaps the last two crimes to be solved, say -- one to fail solving (spectacularly, by the way... don't make it dull),
<@zette> and the next one to finally win. Play with scenarios and see if there is someway to compress a story that is getting out of hand.
<@zette> And always remember that the writer needs to know far more about the world of the story than the reader needs.
<BklynWriter> I read somewhere that in the structure of a short, the character should fail 2 times, and succeed at the 3rd try
<Suzanne> Ha! Does that work in life as well?
<@zette> I hate those kinds of rules. They make for very static stories. Write what you think works best.
<@zette> Exactly, Suzanne. It depends on the story. What you would do with that, Deb, is have to make up things to fit in the pattern. Never force a pattern on a story.
<BklynWriter> yup, that's exactly what I did.
<BklynWriter> I see it now, but didn't realize it then
<@zette> (grin) Good. That's easy to fix.
<@zette> Stories need to flow. Forcing them into some pattern that doesn't work with what you're trying to tell isn't going to make a better story.
<Izunya> I may have done that with my story . . . hmmm.
<@zette> One last note on how much background/detail to use. Think of it as a sense of the place, but not a history of that place.
<BklynWriter> I've added a few details about the world, but didn't explain them...isn't that confusing for the reader?
<@zette> You don't want to make it too easy for your character, but you don't want to give her anything that's just placed there to give them something to do. A problem always has to logically advance the story, even when the character fails.
<@zette> No, Deb, not usually. Depends, of course, on the details. But a reader just needs enough to feel part of the place.
<Suzanne> I also really as a reader like when I have to figure out a place in a story
<@zette> Here's something else -- the explaining how the gas engine works. We drive in cars, but we don't stop and think about how they work. That's how your details should be presented. Your character (if they are in their own world/culture and not a stranger) knows what everything is. She's not going to stop and think about how it works.
<Izunya> Bklyn: As a science fiction and fantasy reader, I'm very used to having to figure out an invented word or so.
<Izunya> I don't know whether I'm typical, but I think I might be.
<BklynWriter> can I give a specific example?
<Suzanne> Yes, yes, it is one of the real joys of reading SF&F
<@zette> True, Izunya. I think we all work that way. As long as we see where it fits into the world, we don't need to have it explained.
<Gayle> yeah...I read sf/f too...you are either pulled into the world or you're not
<BklynWriter> in my universe, there are these small robots called "bill-bots" they are robotic advertising billboards, small dog sized, and they're everywhere, they are a general annoyance
<@zette> That's a good description right there. That's about all you would need for a short story.
<Gayle> oh...like the pop up ads on certain sites BK?
<BklynWriter> yup Gayle.... they're like those annoying poochi toys
<Izunya> My first thought was, "Oh! Spam with legs!"
<@zette> LOL! I love it!
<BklynWriter> lol!! @ Izunya
<@zette> But a reader would understand that with very little description. And it says a LOT about your culture as well. Marketing/sales are important.
<Izunya> <g> Glad to be of entertainment value.
<Gayle> see BK...you got reactions from all of us from where we are
<BklynWriter> yes, thanks, its very encouraging!!
<@zette> I think it's a great bit!
<@zette> Anyone have any other questions right now? I could go into the next section, but maybe we should hold that for the next class.
<@zette> Anyone find any of this tonight helpful at all?
<BklynWriter> definitely...I've got lots of cutting ahead of me lol
<BklynWriter> and some of the stuff I can move to my November novel
<Suzanne> Yes. More and more dead words on the floor!
<Gayle> only question I have is are we going to have a four class after all? And yes, it's been very helpful...might even get the silly story started...again
<Izunya> I like the "third one this month," trick. I can definitely find a use for that.
<@zette> I think we can do four. Let me check the calendar!
<Gayle> it will fit nicely in my short story too....
<Gayle> okay...
<gayle> did that one to myself I did
<@zette> It looks like the first cleared spot isn't until next Sunday or so. Why don't we see how much we can cover tomorrow, and then choose after that? And remember that I'm always open to questions outside of class. But I like having a group to talk with. You all have great points and questions!
<gayle> that sounds good to me
<@zette> What might work is go through tomorrow, take a couple days to write, then get back together to see where people are stuck, and talk about marketing.
<Izunya> Fine by me.
<BklynWriter> sounds good. Extremely helpful zette
<gayle> that sounds even better
<Suzanne> Sounds good to me. Thanks zette
<@zette> Sunday or Monday?
<Suzanne> Monday?
<@zette> Monday is good for me. Gives everyone the weekend to work on stuff, too.
<@zette> What about the rest of you?
<gayle> I'm going to say Monday simply because I'm not sure what's happening around here on Sunday
<Izunya> Works for me.
<@zette> I'll grab the Monday at 9pm spot then.
<@zette> Okay, we'll get moving!
<@zette> I think we got through background and detail yesterday. And your paragraphs and stuff were a lot of fun, by the way!
<@zette> Today we'll look at how to move the story along without letting it get away from you. This is my WORST problem. I have more stories turn into Novellas then I like to think about. I can live with novelettes, but novellas....
<@zette> You might want to create a small outline that shows each major step that the story takes, so that you can go from the beginning to the end without getting lost.
<@zette> If I write a short story in one day, I usually don't need an outline. It's all there. (And I do a lot of one-day stories.) However, if the story takes several days to write I do one thing that helps. When I get down to the end of my days writing I put one or more single lines of ideas at the end of the work.
<BklynWriter> that is a great tip, very helpful for me
<@zette> ARGH!
<@zette> Okay, I'm back.
<@zette> As I was saying (glaring at chat) I do short notes, one line at the end of my day's work setting up the next bit of work. Maybe the next step, the next major step, and the plae that I want the story to end.
<@zette> This helps me keep all that sort of stuff in mind.
<@zette> When you're looking at your next step in the story, always ask yourself if this will get your characters closer to the ending you see. Even if they fail at some test, it should still bring them closer to the ending.
<@zette> I see a lot of people get stuck somewhere shortly after the opening, and long before the ending. Middles scare people. But here's a trick that always works for me: Look at your story and ask what is the worst thing that could happen to your characters right then.
<Suzanne> write about that worst thing?
<@zette> It has to be a logical part of the story, but there are all kinds of fun things that can go wrong, from fairly mundane (it starts raining) to the really horrible (one of their group is killed).
<@zette> Suzanne, what this means is if you are stuck and you can't see the next step, look for something drastic to happen. Drastic is always good for moving a story along and keeping a reader interested.
<@zette> Obviously, if you're writing a comedy, it's not going to be the same sort of drastic as a horror writer would look for. But just ask yourself what can go wrong and you
<@zette> and you'll often find the next step in your story.
<Izunya> Presumably, if you're able to say, "But that doesn't fit in with the plot!" then you know that you know what the plot is, which may be more than you knew before. (Yes, I know; bad sentence.)
<@zette> That's true, Izunya! That can help, too, because you'll start refining your vision of the story that way.
<BklynWriter> I can do that...maybe make a list of worst case scenarios and pick which one logically fits in with the story. Right zette?
<@zette> One thing to avoid... if you ask someone for help, don't turn to them and say 'my characters would never do that.' Even if it's true, at least look at what they're offering. And thank them. (grin) Even if you don't use it. I only put this in because as part of a larger group you're going to get people offering you help in writing. Some of it will be totally useless.
<@zette> Actually, a lot of it will be. But there are times when they'll say something and your first reaction will be that it doesn't fit your characters. If they've actually read the story, try to figure out why they think it would. They're missing something -- or you are.
<@zette> On finding those middle steps -- don't make it too easy for your people. Put them through hell.
<@zette> But at the same time, don't throw problem after problem at them just to fill in space. Fine a few logical steps and obstacles to overcome.
<@zette> (Sorry.. almost lost my connection again!)
<@zette> Any questions on this part?
<Izunya> Not right now . . . I'm sure I'll think of one or two once I try to apply it.
<BklynWriter> I guess I'm guilty of not making it hard enough for my characters because I don't want to make my story sound melodramatic.
<@zette> LOL. Yeah, that's the real test.
<Gayle> not right now...need to think about the story first...then I will probably have a ton
<@zette> It's a hard balance sometimes. Just try to keep the reader in mind, and the fact that they are reading for excitement. You don't want the story to be too slow, or for the character not to have major problems.
<Izunya> (Izunya's corollary to Murphy's Law: The questions always come when the teacher is unavailable. The really sticky questions come when he/she is not only unavailable, but on sabbatical in Europe.)
<Gayle> lolol
<BklynWriter> lol
<@zette> LOL! I like that one. But you can always reach me at zette@sff.net
<BklynWriter> there is a fine line between adventure and implausibility
<@zette> Finding the ending is the next hardest problem. A lot of people write far beyond where the story should actually end. Much like the opening, we don't need to know the rest of the person's life story.
<Suzanne> Of course, when I am reading and find a short story I like, I WANT to know the rest of the person's live
<@zette> Maybe something to keep in mind is the 'And they lived happily ever after' line. We don't really need to see more than that.
<Izunya> Suzanne: That's why series was invented.
<Suzanne> 'cuse the typing
<@zette> Oh, I understand, but.... that's not the point of a short story. That's the work for novels.
<Izunya> Or whatever the plural of series is. Serie?
<Izunya> Serieses? Darn it . . . scuse me, I'm after a dictionary.
<@zette> Usually with a short story you will want to end just a little after the climax of the plot.
<@zette> Series should be singular or plural. The series was, the series were... but I could be wrong.
<Izunya> Series, series. You were right.
<@zette> For instance, you have someone rescuing the princess from the dragon. The climax is wining over the dragon, but the ending would be the two humans leaving the cave. You don't want to walk all the way back to the village with them -- unless you intend for another more important piece of the plot to happen there.
<@zette> Am I making any sense tonight? I have got an incredible headache, so I feel like I'm very slow and the words aren't quite falling into the right places.
<Izunya> Makes sense to me. I'm sorry if I distracted anyone.
<Gayle> sounds good to me...
<BklynWriter> got it
<@zette> No, that's fine, Izunya. I didn't mind. I just can't seem to remember what I'm doing here. (grin)
<@zette> Ah, yes. One more problem I see people have when they're going from middle to ends -- the fear of actually ending a story.
<BklynWriter> I have a question zette that just came to me, something we did not mention yesterday
<@zette> Ask!
<BklynWriter> I AM the prime example of that fear, zette.
<BklynWriter> ok what about subplots? Is there room in a short story for a [small] subplot?
<@zette> Subplots! Good question! Try to keep subplots to a minimum. The longer the story, the more they can handle something like that, of course -- but you really don't want to load a story down with two many threads.
<@zette> And try to keep them as closely tied to the main plot as you can, I would think. There isn't room to roam wild with threads in a short story.
<BklynWriter> ok. Serena needs to find transportation to Eden.. That is the main thread. The subplot I set up is that she is B.R.O.K.E. she doesn't even know where her next meal is coming from. And subconsciously I've threaded it in with her constantly rumbling stomach lol
<@zette> The truth is the more you write short stories, the more you'll find ways to add and twist what you're doing. But at first it's kind of hard just to get one plot from beginning to end, let alone tie in a couple threads and more characters... (grin)
<BklynWriter> so it is definitely a related subplot
<valerie> Deb: is that really a subplot? Sounds like a motivating force in her life
<@zette> Oh, I wouldn't even consider that a subplot, since transportation/lack of funds is the main story.
<BklynWriter> oh ok. So it just more validation of the direness of her situation, in other words
<Izunya> I'd say that's an example of throwing more related troubles at your main character.
<@zette> Yeah, I would think so. It has everything to do with what she's doing. If she wasn't broke, she'd not have a problem at all.
<BklynWriter> ok kewl
<@zette> A subplot might be a creditor trying to catch up with her, and her avoiding that person.
<BklynWriter> its clear now
<@zette> Anyway, endings. Endings can really be a problem.
<Izunya> I have a hard time trying to find something brief, but slightly more profound than, "She went out, closing the door quietly behind her." Any suggestions?
<@zette> A sort of special kind of ending is a sort of 'ambiguous' ending. If the story is more about how the character got up the courage to fight the dragon, it might not matter if he wins or loses the battle. You may not even show the battle, just the character going to the cave.
<@zette> It depends on the story, Izunya. That might be a very powerful ending, but I can't really judge it from here.
<Izunya> True, I guess not. I tend to feel that my endings lack power, but I can't really show you what I mean without posting whole stories.
<valerie> Dude, post whole stories on the crit boards; that's what they're there for.
<@zette> I know that feeling very well. I hate trying to come up with that final line. I hate it for novels, too.
<BklynWriter> I know my ending. She will get transport, but i know i don't need to show her boarding the ship or anything like that, is it enough to show her starting to pack up her life
<Izunya> <laugh> To show you how anal I can be: my instant reaction was, "But most of my stuff isn't good enough for the crit board!
<valerie> LOL. That's great!
<@zette> Depends on where the most power would be. Packing might be a good scene -- but in your case, I would say go with the ship. The story is all about her getting the transport, and not to go there might leave the reader feeling as though she's still not going to make it.
<BklynWriter> ok zette I'll try it out
<@zette> That's just my gut feeling, remember. You may find the other ending suits you much better.
<@zette> Are there any questions at all about any part of the stuff we've covered this week? Or anything else?
<@zette> Anything I missed, like that subplot question?
<valerie> I've never prepared a short story: things like outlines or planning ahead. How often do you find yourself doing this?
<@zette> How about the dreaded art of titles...
<valerie> ooooh, titles are hard.
<Gayle> Not right now...but maybe in a day or two after I've played with the story.
<Izunya> Titles! Yes, pleasepleaseplease!
<Suzanne> Oy! Most of my stories have six or seven titles on the first page and I wind up with something else
<@zette> If I think I am not going to get a chance to write the story in one day, then I will jot down a few single lines of outline to remind myself where the story is going. I write a lot, remember, so I often have several stories going. I don't want to lose any of them.
<BklynWriter> I have a theory about my titles...I can't force them. They will come when least expected....[read my blog <g>]
<@zette> Titles are like that, Deb.
<BklynWriter> and now I've got titles for a trilogy, when I haven't even finished the first one lol
<@zette> I do a couple different things if I'm really stuck for one. Is the story about Honor? I'll take out my Bartlett's Quotations and look up Honor in the Index and start going through the quotes it shows. You'd be surprises how often that can spark a title.
<Izunya> My computer files have names that range from the truly asinine (Ghost Story Try) to the truly enigmatic (BCSFv5). Finding a real title can be pretty tough work.
<Gayle> oooo...that sounds like a neat idea if November Novel doesn't cough up a title soon
<@zette> Or, to be honest, a single word often makes a good title. 'Honor' might be just the title you're looking for. Or the main character's name and Honor -- Devlin's Honor, for instance.
<Suzanne> pride and prejudice, sense and . . . .
<@zette> You have a much better chance at finding a short story title and keeping it than you will with a novel, by the way. Publishers are well known for deciding to change the title of a book.
<Gayle> Nathan is breathing down my neck telling me it's time to go...see you all Monday?
<@zette> Also remember that titles can not be copyrighted.
<BklynWriter> bye gayle!
<Izunya> Bye, Gayle.
<@zette> Okay! Monday it is!
<Suzanne> yes, inded. thanks again
<valerie> bye, Gayle!
<valerie> (The last class is Monday! Dang; I'll miss it.)
<BklynWriter> I named my short Voyage, but i'm not satisfied with it
<Izunya> Minor question: what is the difference between a short story and a vignette?
<valerie> re: titles can't be copyrighted. Does this mean you can lift someone else's title if you like it?
<@zette> We'll just go over finding publishers and stuff like that. And it'll be questions that you might have.
<@zette> You can, Valerie -- but if it's a really famous story, or uses a character's name that everyone would recognize, it's not a good idea. (grin)
<valerie> fair 'nuff
<@zette> A vignette is really just a scene, not a story.
<Izunya> Ah, okay. I tend to think of vignettes as having much less plot, but I'm fairly sure that's not the whole story. So to speak.
<@zette> And usually quite short, I believe.
<Izunya> Thanks.
<@zette> That sounds about right.
<@zette> I can see why Voyage would not work, Deb. It's not about the Voyage, after all -- but finding the ability to take the journey.
<BklynWriter> exactly
<@zette> Hmmm.... The Promise of Eden...
<valerie> The Ashes of Eden
<@zette> Ack. My brain is dead right now.
<@zette> Ashes might give away too much early on.
<valerie> I know, but it's fun!
<@zette> LOL!
<valerie> especially if Deb never says outright what's in the box...
<@zette> It's always fun to find titles for others. Eden Bound?
<Izunya> Looking Toward Eden?
<BklynWriter> how about Special Delivery lol
<@zette> LOL!
<BklynWriter> but its such a small part of the story
<BklynWriter> Race for Eden
<@zette> Yeah. The story is that she wants what Eden can give her. Reaching for Eden?
<valerie> I like Eden's Promise... I'd really like to play on the Biblical references since the way she gets there is kind of twisted...
<BklynWriter> oh I like that too!
<BklynWriter> can I have a short story and a novel by the same name?
<BklynWriter> Finding Eden?
<valerie> depends on whether your publisher lets you keep the novel title, I guess...
<Izunya> I've seen writers do that, but generally it's because they've expanded the short story.
<Izunya> For Hope of Eden
<@zette> Well, it gives you some stuff to work with, anyway. Hmmmm... yeah that's what I was thinking, Izunya!
<BklynWriter> i know it will come to me...i'm just hoping it's at a decent hour, and not in the middle of the night lol
<valerie> For some reason, my short story titles come fairly easily once I've written the piece. And I usually end up titling the piece either after a main character or an MC's characteristic
<@zette> I've been pretty lucky with titles, but they range all over the place, from things like Legend to Weaving the Strands of Love.
<Izunya> If it'll come eventually, I'd say don't force it. And keep some paper by your bed. <smile>
<valerie> erg; bad 80s song is now running thru my head (sowing the seeds of love...)
<@zette> sorry. But it was a good story. (grin)
<valerie> I'm not going to hold it against you!
<BklynWriter> OT: I tried to write down something in the middle of the night on a pad. the next morning it was 3 pages of gibberish....and the only thing I could remember was telepathic twins separated in vitro
<@zette> What else should we cover? Can any of you think of anything you want to ask? Did tonight help at all? We really didn't cover much.
<@zette> I keep my Visor by the bed. Very nice for notes.
<Izunya> I thought tonight was helpful.
<valerie> it helped; I never quite know when to begin a story... and I've been told I end them too soon, leaving too much ambiguity about what happened.
<@zette> Oh, just the opposite of the problem I often see! That's a tough one!
<Izunya> Bklyn: that very thing was what stopped me from keeping a dream journal. My notes usually made less sense than the dreams.
<BklynWriter> tonight was good, as all your classes are zette
<@zette> Thank you. I'm so frazzled tonight that I couldn't tell if I was helping at all or not.
<@zette> Waiting for word on Russ for eight hours did nothing for my state of mind today.
<valerie> Ah, but we have your e-mail address now... we can pester you with questions if we wake tomorrow and our scribbled notes lead us to another question.
<@zette> Sure thing! Any time.
(Please note that all the material had been broken down into short passages to post to the classroom chat.)
Pre-Class Rules:Please do not post until you see the word QUESTIONS posted.Please don't chat during class. Please stop posting question when you see CLASS.
There is a lot of material to cover, although some sections are shorter than others.I will be very happy to answer any questions later if I miss them here.
The size of print in this chat is small, and I have trouble reading it.I may misunderstand a question.If so, ask again or ask later.
I will cut and paste a number of blocks, one after another, and then post QUESTIONS.At that point I'll stop while everyone reads what's been posted and asks any questions.
And now the class!
Welcome to Lee Killough's Checking on Culture -- A checklist for Cultural Building.This is the primary book I've used for this class.Definitions come from the Random House Webster's College Dictionary.
I also used various other books in my house to check some of the items, while other parts are called up from memory.I hope that some or all of it will help you develop interesting backgrounds for your manuscripts.
Lee Killough has several books available from Meisha Merlin Press: Blood Walk and Blood Games, Bridling Chaos, and the upcoming Wilding Nights.You can find more information on these books here: http://www.meishamerlin.com
Culture may be defined as behavior peculiar to Homo Sapiens, together with material objects used as an integral part of this behavior; specifically culture consists of language, ideas, beliefs, customs, codes, institutions, tools,
techniques, works of art, rituals, ceremonies and so on. -- Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 16, page 874 (15th edition, copyright 2002)
I often read books on Cultural and Physical Anthropology for fun.Mead, Pfeiffer, Braidwood, Clark, Bronowski, Johanson, Wormington and may others.If it looks in the least bit interesting, I'll pick it up and read it.
However, it wasn't until I happened upon Lee Killough's little 53 page booklet that I finally found a way to easily put it all together.
Lee's book lists the terms out alphabetically.For this class, I've rearranged them into groups that I think will make it easier to manipulate for our purposes.I have also not used all of her terms, nor copied all the material she had for each term.
I have even combined a few for easier handling in the class, and added one or two that I think should be looked at as well.
Lee Killough's book, Checking on Culture, is available.Anyone who wishes to can order this little gem by sending $5.00 plus $3.00 for postage and postage materials:
Lee Killough/PO Box 1167/Manhattan KS 66505-1167 (Be sure to tell her it is for Checking on Culture.)
The Class -- These sections are a bare introduction to the subjects covered, and you may want to go on and do more research to fit a pattern of culture to your work.
There are many books out there on cultural and physical anthropology, some of them overall views and some specific to a culture.Check your library or book store if find something that catches your attention.
You can also ask me for suggestions.I have several books on the subjects, but many of them may be difficult to find.
The class will follow a set pattern.First will be a short description of the overall grouping, followed by sub-sections, each numbered and named. The sections are further divided:
Term -- Definition from dictionary -- Part of Lee Killough's explanation from the booklet (Killough) -- My additions (Zette) -- Question period.Once again the rules -- Please do not ask any questions until you see QUESTIONS or after you see CLASS.
QUESTIONS
@zette -- Everyone doing all right?Remember, this stuff will be in the transcript, too.
Robert -- Does her book focus mostly on research of existing cultures or is it a series of questions for world building?
@zette -- It is a list of things to look for when you world build.Just a checklist, with material added on how she has used it or what she found helpful.
Robert -- Is there an encyclopedic sort of anthropology site that you'd recommend for the "I need a Pueblo side character who's onstage for three lines before he dies to be plausible" questions.
@zette -- I don't know of any right off hand, Robert.
@zette -- I tend to go to my books rather than the web in these cases, because I have a large personal library.
@zette -- Okay, I'm going to move on... We're heading into the real stuff now!
CLASS
Part One: Integrating with the environment
While this section may seem best suited to sf and fantasy writers creating alien and magical beings from scratch, I think people with basic humanoid populations will find items of interest here.
Consider how your people got where they are. Are they indigenous?Did they migrate into the area?If they are new to the environment, what practices did they bring with them?
Also, the more primitive the society, the closer it will be to it's origins.
1. Habitat
Definition: The natural environment of an organism; place that is natural for the life and growth.
Killough: The primal influence on any life form is habitat. Even before it influences culture, it shapes the very anatomy of the beings in that culture. People on a cold world must withstand low temperatures. So they may evolve fur, or perhaps a subcutaneous layer of blubber as our seals and whales do.
An aquatic planet produces swimmers.The buoyancy of biological forms in water might also make the seas the home of intelligent life on a heavy gravity world.
Habitat affects the design of housing and clothing, also food gathering or food production, domestic animals and cooking... And what about sociability?
Start by placing your people in the environment in which they exist and suit them to it.
Not only look at their ethnic structure, but also how the area influences how they think.People in equatorial areas are used to napping (siesta) in the afternoons because the heat is oppressive.
It becomes part of their cultural background, and not easily abandoned, especially when a large group migrates together to another area.
Zette:All the items of an ecological system must be taken into account when creating a culture, from the climate to the available resources. This is as true for humans as for alien or fantasy races.People living in deserts are not likely to have 'paper' though they may have parchment.
They are more likely to know the layout of the night sky and use it for navigation, while a mountain people -- where clouds and rough weather might block the stars too often -- are more likely to use terrestrial landmarks for navigation, like the peaks of mountains, or even odd trees and rock formations.
Large impassable blocks will help to create ethnic differences, both in looks and in culture.Points of transition will be along trading routes and places where one culture outstrips another and is able to overcome the barrier -- i.e., ships that cross oceans, transportation across deserts and mountains.
For example, consider a grasslands environment:Would this produce fast runners because a lack of cover would be difficult for prey to reach safety?Perhaps a creature that could burrow would have an advantage in such a place.
Herds and packs might well have advantages over individuals.How would an environment like this affect the creation of an intelligent being?
Special problems for new worlds: What special environments that are not 'earth-norm' would an sf writer need to consider?For instance, if the world doesn't have an oxygen atmosphere, what sort of senses would your beings evolve?
Stronger gravity produces denser material.Also, a people living on a heavy gravity world would have short, squat bodies, while those on a low gravity world are likely to grow tall and willowy.
Does your new race have any sign of Sexual dimorphism?Do the sexes differ from one another in some particular way?Are there only two sexes?Is there only one?
QUESTIONS
danielle -- Weather patterns may also play a part in how other cultures stereotype a culture - e.g. They sleep during the day, so they're lazy
CiceroCat -- so, environment would also determine how fast a civilization might advance (technology)?
@zette -- No culture can be lazy. They would have to work as hard at night to survive if they slept all day.Otherwise they would just die out.
@zette -- Environment will give them all the tools they can use, so a poor environment will slow down technology.
Robert -- Climate might affect that though. Some climates like tropical islands, the amount of effort survival needs take is a lot lower than say Alaska
danielle -- But stereotypes ignore the reasons for things and read the behaviour in terms of their own (limited) understanding
Robert -- Right, I see what you're saying about the siesta custom, Danielle.
@zette -- Yes, but that is not being lazy.Islanders work very hard to get what they need.I can suggest a couple books for that.It's not an easy life, just because it looks plentiful on the outside.
@zette -- Oh yes, for stereotypes as viewed by outsiders... very true.
@zette -- I hadn't quite caught all of that on the first reading!
danielle -- what might people in a highly forested area use to navigate?
DragonDancer -- rivers, I would think
@zette -- Paths, mostly.Marks on trees.A very tall tree that was hit by lightning.Anything that can indicate a direction to go.
Anon_19 -- If a race migrated from a shore to a plains/forest area, what types of customs do you think would stick around for a while?
Robert -- Up in Minnesota some long distance Native American trail marks are still visible - pairs of trees bent at right angles as saplings pointing in the direction of the trail.
@zette -- Also, from all I've seen, people who live in very dense jungles usually have very little contact outside of their area, so they KNOW the jungle they way we know streets.
@zette -- That would be a very drastic change, Anon.(You can type your name in the name box at the top right corner, by the way).I would think they would bring their fishing culture, which they could adapt to lakes and streams.
@zette -- Boating as well, which might give them an advantage over some other local peoples.
Kevin -- thanks
@zette -- But I would think they would have to adapt more than they brought.
@zette -- The same crops wouldn't likely grow, if they were that far into settlement.
@zette -- Okay, I'm going to move on here!
@zette -- Oh, one last thing for Kevin -- it would also depend on how far they moved.If it were an adjacent area, they'd likely know a lot about it already.Shore dwellers often hunted in mountains, etc.
CLASS
2. Anatomy
Definition: The structure of an animal or plant, or any of its parts
Killough: ... but if aliens or non-human fantasy beings have roles, this category becomes important. Anatomy, too, profoundly affects society.Imagine a group of aliens... one-centaur-like, one dolphin-like, one furred, one winged, one humanoid with a thumb on each side of his hands.
Now thing of each in relation to architectures, to clothing and jewelry, furniture, tools, transportation, sex, sports and grooming...
Well...that extra thumb affects anything they grasp.We encircle a doorknob with the fingers and thumb.Mr. Two Thumbs is more likely to spread-eagle his fingers and thumbs across a broad knob, or he might use a bar handle, grasping it as a bird does a perch...
How a being grips determines handle shapes. Grip also determines which weapons can be used and how.
Extra limbs present a particular challenge.Where and how do they attach?
Zette:Anatomy is part of habitat.Creatures evolve to meet the requirements of their world.
Evolution favors a form best suited to the environment.In other words, the reason why Amazonian natives are usually shorter than Europeans may be because that form is better suited to life in the a jungle environment where tree branches are low over head.
Tall may seem like a good choice -- easier to get things from the trees -- but in fact, it would make it harder to travel (constant ducking or cutting through things) and would also put the head even with at a level with dangerous predators.
In such a case, the people with the 'tall' gene in their makeup are the ones likely to die off without having a chance to pass the gene on.
Humans are non-adaptive to specific ecological niches.While they may, as a race, evolve to fit a certain ecological system, they are not irretrievably tied to it.
Humans are the only creatures on this world that can move out of one niche and to another, because they remake their environment to suit them: They Build their own housing and they Grow their own food.
Once a being takes control of their environment they are no longer limited by it, and a disaster in one ecological niche means simply moving to another one. This is how humans have survived both ice ages and the current age of plenty.
QUESTIONS
@zette -- Are you all hanging in there all right?
karenth -- yup!
CiceroCat -- Yuppers
DragonDancer -- aye
Robert -- Some of those races wouldn't have much reason to develop much physical tech - the dolphin types.
CiceroCat -- lol
Yvonne -- we're hanging on your every word
Kevin -- very interesting stuff
@zette -- Good!
CiceroCat -- very interesting
@zette -- No I wouldn't think so either, Robert. But that was Lee's example.It would be fun to figure out what they would do, though.
CiceroCat -- fodder for the imagination
JimMills -- Sorry I'm late, Z... I'll have to catch the transcript to see what I missed.
Robert -- If they were mermaids with opposable thumbs and a human tendency to build things, their applications might be very different.
@zette -- GREAT! That's what this is supposed to do, CiceroCat.
CiceroCat --
@zette -- Jim... only one rule, don't post until you see the QUESTIONS and stop when you see CLASS.
@zette -- And there will be a transcript.
JimMills -- ok. np.
CiceroCat -- if you had a flying race (of humans), they couldn't do much in the way of weapons, could they?
Robert -- Like, I'm thinking about long distance sonar and acoustic communication and sentient elaboration. They might build structures that combined acoustics and esthetics as landmarks.
karenth -- nice, Robert!
CiceroCat -- ah, different emphasis on what they develop, Robert?
JimMills -- Sure they could, CC... light weight, but with high speed fly-by's.
danielle -- depends how flexible the flying humans' feet were!
@zette -- I would think they would develop projectiles to drop, CC.And nice Robert!
Robert -- Yeah. Their needs are different but if they're that intelligent they'll elaborate on anything they do.
DragonDancer -- if your flying race developed more dexterous feet, they could (like birds, kinda)
CiceroCat -- i was considering, like a chakram thingy--would that be implausible?
CiceroCat -- haven't considered that dragon
Robert -- Archery and sniping. Chakrams. Weapons designed to grip well and fling projectiles.
JimMills -- or a weight on the end of a rope...
@zette -- All good stuff!
CiceroCat -- dropping projectiles, never considered that either--and i guess nets
Robert -- Nets, snares and claw boots or bladed boots for falcon stooping.
DragonDancer -- think horseback type weapons, like javelins, too
danielle -- not to mention voice weapons
CiceroCat -- k
CiceroCat -- voice?
DragonDancer -- banshees?
danielle -- I don't know, some kind of sonic attack?
CiceroCat -- ah!
Yvonne -- the weirding way?
CiceroCat --
@zette -- I'm going on now.There are about 50 sections to cover, and we've only done two. This gives me an idea of how many classes we'll have, though.(grin)
CLASS
3. Hygiene
Definition: a condition or practice conducive to the preservation of health, as cleanliness
Killough: How do your people bathe?In water?Or do they, say, scrub their skins clean with sand or work something powdery into their fur or feathers and brush/comb it out as a dry shampoo? How often do they bathe?
What customs surround bating? What implements do they use?Is it a private or communal activity?
What kind of plumbing do your people enjoy?Hot and cold running water? Wells?What about toilet facilities? ... Do your people clean themselves afterwards?With paper...leaves...sponges... water jet?
What about hand washing afterward?Do they have customs and taboos concerning hygiene? Do they, like in the Middle East, reserve one hand for that function so they never clean and eat with the same hand...
Zette:Hygiene is dependent on the world around them -- linked very closely to habitat.The Romans, along with their famous baths, rubbed olive oil into their skin and scrapped it off with razor like instruments.
Indoor plumbing is not an entirely new invention. The Romans, among others, had extensive water systems, and -- of course -- brought large amounts of water to their cities via their aqueducts.
However, work of that type takes a large concentration of people, not only to do the construction, but also to support those who do the work.Make sure that your culture can support it.
The Greeks, although they also had balaneion (baths), didn't appear to use them as social gathering places as the Romans later did.
Perfumes might also be considered part of hygiene.Would scents signify wealth?
QUESTIONS
@zette -- (Nice short section!)
CiceroCat --
Robert -- Ranging into the alien weird... the vulture people of planet disgusting a actually adapted to eating carrion and they don't have much of what humans would consider hygiene.
Robert -- But the more intense and frightening their odors the higher status they are, it keeps local carnivores off 'em.
CiceroCat -- sounds neat, Robert
DragonDancer -- cool
karenth -- they'd probably see bathing as pretty foolhardy, yeah?
@zette -- Sounds like you're creating a 'winged' world.
Robert -- Shameful actually, makes the person smell like a food animal.
Kevin -- don't think I'd want to live there
CiceroCat -- another bird q real quick--do birds actually get in water a lot?or rarely?
Robert -- Right, see how well it keeps off conquering other sentients?
CiceroCat -- you know to clean themselves?
Robert -- The ones in the birdbath outside my house as a kid often did.
CiceroCat -- lol i wonder how their sense of smell deals with it --although, people/creatures adept
karenth -- some birds do the birdbath thing.Or a nice puddle.
@zette -- Birds around here love any pond of water in the street.There's usually a flock of them splashing around in them in the summer and spring.
Robert -- Birds also groom and preen.
danielle -- some birds bathe in dust - no, wait, that's for scratching itches
CiceroCat -- and they don't get bogged down with so much water to not fly away?
CiceroCat -- ah dust baths.. interesting... =)
Yvonne -- some birds bathe in ants, to get rid of parasites
@zette -- It's a problem in the fall.Them sometimes get their feet frozen in the water.We've rescued a few.
karenth -- oh!
karenth -- poor birds.
CiceroCat -- ants!lol, covered in ants wouldn't be much fun, i guess, according to us...oh, yeah!poor birds... glad u had no cats around
Robert -- In "Raptor Red" was a wonderful chapter where the heroine had parasites and laid down to let tickbirds tend her.
@zette -- It's why most birds migrate... but we do get early and late storms sometimes.
CiceroCat -- ooh the dinosaur book!
danielle -- coating of the skin might have something to do with what you could bathe in (oily protective covering, like dogs or ducks?)
CiceroCat -- ah
CiceroCat -- k
Robert -- Some sentient reptilords might tame and breed tickbirds and the tickbird fanciers are related to soap and perfumers and part of same culture.
Yvonne -- mud is great protection too
CiceroCat -- neat idea Robert... breading tickbirds for yourself
Robert -- Mud's great and one thing I've toyed with is a bunch of sentient elephant types.
Killough: Anatomy and habitat influence clothing.Bundling in layers of clothing without waterproof boots and a fur parking on the outside keeps Eskimos warm in an Arctic climate.
In the desert, the Bedouins' long robes hang loose from the shoulders, not only affording protection from the sun, but cooling by allowing air to circulate up along the body...
Clothing varies with working needs, too.Someone in a sedentary job can afford to dress in more elaborate and restrictive clothing than someone who must climb on or squeeze between machinery...
Clothing distinguishes between professions --- police, soldiers, chefs --- and religious groups --- Hasidic Jews, Muslims.... remember footgear.If your aliens have feet, even those who wear no clothing may need foot protection...
Zette: Decide on the types of materials that are available to your culture.Wool needs sheep, grazing lands, people to sheer, process and weave.Nomadic cultures manage this, especially if their movement revolves around grazing land.
However, fabrics like cotton take farmlands. This is a cloth of a sedentary population, as well as one living in the proper climate for cotton growth. Any type of cloth may be exported, bartered and traded -- but remember that such trade goes two ways.
Look into the manufacture of cloth and decide if your culture can support it.Is it woven at home?If not, who makes the cloth and the clothing?
Do they use hides instead?Hides also take a lot of work to make them into clothing.In Eskimo cultures, the women often have to chew the hides to make them useable.
Also, the more complex the society, the more often clothing is differentiated between male and female, as well as by age groups and different classes.And are there special types of clothing worn at various times of life -- baptism, first hunt, or a presentation to the king, marriage?
What about jewelry? What sort of items and how are they worn? What do they signify?Do weapons sometimes form part of the jewelry that they wear, and if so are they just symbolic or is the person expected to know how to use them?
Cosmetics can also be considered part of clothing.Who wears cosmetics and when?Is it a sign of rank or power?Do they paint power symbols on their faces? Do they blacken their teeth as a sign of beauty?Do they use tattoos as magical emblems? Male?Female?
QUESTIONS
karenth -- "where are all the mylar jumpsuits?"
danielle -- this is great stuff!
Robert -- Thanks for mentioning the tattoos!
karenth -- : )
Yvonne -- don't forget scarring
@zette -- LOL, Mylar jumpsuits.
Robert -- Decoration is something that would start to apply even if races didn't wear protective clothing. Yeah, scarring too.
@zette -- True, too, Yvonne.
Robert -- Dyeing hair, fur or feathers.
DragonDancer -- any idea as to what's easier to grow: wool, flax, or cotton?
Yvonne -- body piercing, lip plates
Robert -- Or silk, silk is in there too. All are pretty labor intensive.
danielle -- Colour of clothing as means of communicating social messages
Yvonne -- cotton is highly labor intensive
CiceroCat -- didn't Egyptians use eyepaint for protection of the eyes?
@zette -- Wool.It feeds itself, grazes, just need to trim and make into cloth... but that's not entirely easy.
Robert -- Yes. I think wool with that annual shearing and then all the work processing it might be a bit easier.
@zette -- Eyepaint was mostly a high society thing, I believe.
DragonDancer -- thank you!
CiceroCat -- hey and then if they wanted to they could eat em
Robert -- And then I have to ask: do they know how to weave, knit, knot, crochet or felt it? How do they make cloth?
Kevin -- something else that exists is the elongation or deformation of body parts like ears, necks, feet..
Yvonne -- or other animal hair, alpaca, vicuna
CiceroCat -- ah thnx zette
Yvonne -- goat hair
@zette -- They did eat the sheep.Older animals, most often, didn't go back to the fields after sheering.
Robert -- In Ziriavan they raise catswool because it's very soft and fine and a Persian type can produce a lot of it.
CiceroCat -- cat?
Robert -- Cat. To me it's an accident of history that very fluffy longhair breeds were developed long after most of the animal fiber stuff got invented.
CiceroCat -- neat
DragonDancer -- wow, never thought of those types of animals as cloth-producers
Robert -- That and pure white fur would take dyes so beautifully.
Yvonne -- angora rabbit
karenth -- there's a book out there called knitting with dog hair.
Robert -- Yeah! I think they do spin angora rabbit hair.
CiceroCat -- lol, cool karenth
@zette -- The next two sections are pretty short.Let's get through them for this class, and then see we can discuss it all for a few minutes.
Robert -- Knitting was invented late in history but it's actually a very efficient way to turn yarn into clothes, fast.
CLASS
5. Modesty
Definition: (Modest) Having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.
Killough: What do your people believe constitutes modesty?Some societies here on earth disapprove of nudity.Others think nothing of it.Not long ago, our culture considered a bare female ankle scandalously provocative...
Zette: Modesty is based both in the cultural background as well as habitat, and often has a religious basis as well.Nakedness was seldom considered immodest in Pacific Island communities until the introduction of Christianity.
Modesty is also considered different at various age levels, as well as different for each gender.A toddler running naked from a house with the parents chasing her will win laughter.A teen doing the same will get calls to the police.
Hair -- an interesting turn of the century Western civilization custom for females was that when they came of age their hair went up and their hems came down.
Courting behavior is often rife with layers of modesty, and in fact is sometimes used by perspective in-laws as a judgment of suitability of the candidate, either male or female.
While boasting may be considered immodest in most societies, it could, in fact be part of courtship in others, or part of acceptance into a section of the community.
QUESTIONS
CiceroCat -- do you know why the ankle was considered scandalous?
Robert -- I want to do a culture sometime that has that elaborate a set of modesty customs about food, where eating isn't social.
Yvonne -- how often is modesty tied to sex?
DragonDancer -- ankle-- because women were to be all covered save for face and hands
danielle -- I think the ankle led to the leg, which was unmentionable
CiceroCat -- ah
danielle -- they used to dress the legs of tables?
karenth -- imagine a society where men had to wear a covering (sheer enough for them to see, but only just) because their gaze was dangerous and provocative...
CiceroCat -- that's neat Robert
Robert -- Everyone covers their mouths and lower face, because that's disgusting.
CiceroCat -- cool, karenth --you mean like a head covering?
@zette -- The ankle was considered scandalous for the same reason that an uncovered face is considered so in another society -- it is the rules they made.They don't have to be logical by our standards, but they should be consistent with your story.
DragonDancer -- would kissing in that culture be likewise taboo, Robert?
danielle -- who would prepare food, Robert?
karenth -- something like that cc
Robert -- Kissing would be sexual perversion in that society.
CiceroCat -- would talking about food be bad, then Robert, your society?
Robert -- Yep. Talking about food would range from naughty to extremely disgusting-rude.
JimMills -- any public show of emotion towards a female was taboo in Roman society... they considered it disgusting.
CiceroCat -- maybe not all societies kiss on the mouths as a display of affection...
@zette -- Robert, yours seems to follow as much into Taboo areas as modesty, but it works out the same.
danielle -- Maori touch noses rather than kiss mouths
Robert -- I'm extrapolating it to look at the roots of modesty taboos, the cultures that cover up most also will say sex and sexuality is evil and dangerous even in its rare permitted forms.
@zette -- One more section and we'll call it a night!
CiceroCat -- maybe they'd wear something over their mouths, like a veil, even Robert cause it was like being naked
Robert -- Handholding would be sensual and romantic. Right, mouth veils.
CLASS
6. Etiquette
Definition: 1 conventional requirements as to proper social behavior, 2 a prescribed code of usage in matters of ceremony; court etiquette
Killough: What do your people consider good manners?...Among some African tribes, good manners include the host offer a guest his wife for the night.In Arab countries care must be taken in paying compliments.
A statement like, "oh what beautiful earrings!" or even, "What a wonderful house!" may be answered not by a polite thank you as in our culture, but by the recipient of the compliment insisting the complimenter take the earrings or the house as a gift.
With how much formality or courtesy do your people address one another?How fast do they 'cut to the chase' in a conversation?How do they say 'no.' Some languages have no direct way of saying 'no'; it must be approached obliquely...
In crowded conditions as in the orient or the close quarters of a colony ship, manners can be vitally important to reduce social friction.
Zette: The prescribed forms of behavior between one group and another can lead to all kinds of trouble. Someone who doesn't know the rules can be laughed at -- or, if the system is extremely rigid, a break in etiquette could lead to far wider repercussions, including exile or war.
Etiquette is often different when dealing with someone from another age group, especially a younger member to an older member.For SF stories a good form of friction can relate to etiquette and modesty rules.
QUESTIONS
Robert -- Etiquette is a wonderful source of conflict! There are other divisions that could apply. People from the Raven moiety never use certain words and Dog moiety always do and Raven saying it is stealing something.
CiceroCat -- who would set etiquette rules?just a general agreement of people?
@zette -- They evolve with the culture, and are usually ways of setting one group apart from the other.peasants from rulers, for instance.
CiceroCat -- especially if the consequences of being rude are severe, Robert
Robert -- Yep.
danielle -- a lot of the etiquette in our culture are a legacy of a class-conscious history
CiceroCat -- ah, so maybe the best etiquette would be seen in royalty and nobility?
@zette -- A desert group, for instance, might have a rule of etiquette that says never drink first from the canteen, but pass it to another.Never gulp.
Robert -- The peasantry may be more sticklers for it than some of them.
karenth -- the best?
Robert -- Oooh nice, Zette!
CiceroCat -- neat one, zette
@zette -- The strongest RULES of etiquette would be there.
CiceroCat -- maybe spitting would be a very bad thing in a desert group--wasting water
CiceroCat -- ah
@zette -- In a royal group, because they are the most concerned with their ranks and being treated properly.
Robert -- Or like in Dune, it's a sign of respect.
CiceroCat --
@zette -- Ah, 9PM.How'd it go?
CiceroCat -- lol, i can't think of what etiquette would be for my flying humans... don't scatter your bird seed on the floor?*snicker*
danielle -- great! thought provoking
Robert -- It was great, Zette! Full of ideas!
karenth -- really interesting!
Kevin -- it was excellent!
Robert -- CC - Pecking Order, literally.
DragonDancer -- wonderful! Got some excellent ideas
danielle -- lol robert
CiceroCat -- i liked it very informative --it's things like this especially the examples that really stokes my muse
CiceroCat -- lol robert
karenth -- lol
@zette -- I had a hard time deciding how to present the material, but I think this worked pretty well.
Robert -- Definitely, Zette!
Kevin -- indeed
DragonDancer -- ::claps:: good job, Zette!
CiceroCat -- i think you did very well
danielle -- there are 50 in total? cool!
CiceroCat -- thanks for doing this
Robert -- Thanks for a great class!
karenth -- yes, thanks zette!
danielle -- thanks zette!
DragonDancer -- thank you!
@zette -- This is just to get you going and looking at these sections.You will all come up with a lot more that I didn't even consider.
CiceroCat -- what number are we on?4? 5?
@zette -- I think there might be a few more than 50, but some of them are short.We just did #6, but we had a long intro as well.
CiceroCat -- 6 k
CiceroCat --
CiceroCat -- i'm gonna enjoy these classes/chats
@zette -- We've another nine sections to the end of the first part.We might be able to get that far next week since some of it is short.
CiceroCat -- cool
Robert -- Really looking forward to it!
karenth -- sounds good
DragonDancer -- awesome. can't wait!
@zette -- I'll post the transcript in a little while for this one.
Pre-Class Rules:Please do not post until you see the word QUESTIONS posted.Please don't chat during class. Please stop posting question when you see CLASS.
The size of print in this chat is small, and I have trouble reading it.I may misunderstand a question.If so, ask again or ask later. I will be very happy to answer any questions later if I miss them here
I will cut and paste a number of blocks, one after another, and then post QUESTIONS.At that point I'll stop while everyone reads what's been posted and asks any questions.
Welcome to Lee Killough's Checking on Culture -- A checklist for Cultural Building, Class 2.The Killough book is the primary work I've used for this class.Definitions come from the Random House Webster's College Dictionary.
A brief recap:
In class one we covered the first six sections of 'Integrating with the Environment.'These were Habitat, Anatomy, Hygiene, Clothing, Modesty, and Etiquette.
QUESTIONS
@zette--I'm trying to keep the bits shorter this time.(grin)
CiceroCat--how big is Killough's book?
CiceroCat--
Robert&Ari--Is this a print book or an ebook?
@zette--This one I'm using?It's a very small 56 or so page booklet.You'd hardly even notice it on a shelf.
CiceroCat--ah k, thnx
@zette--I was lucky I happened to be going over some material on a table at a con and saw it.
CiceroCat--
Jehane--Do you have an email address to find out postage costs overseas, or should I write to the above address?
@zette--You can go to her AuthorsDen site and find out from her.I had the address in the last class.
Jehane--thanks, will do
@zette--I think it's http://www.authorsden/killough.... but I could be wrong.
@zette--Okay, shall we go on with the class?
CLASS
7. Marriage
Definition: the social institution under which a man and woman live as husband and wife by legal or religious commitments.2. the state, condition or relationship of being married.3.the living arrangement without legal sanction:a trail marriage.
Killough: What courting and marriage customs do your people practice?Is courtship ritualized?Strictly chaperoned?Do couples find their own mates or is marriage arranged?
Does the female, or the male, take a dowry into the marriage?Does the prospective bridegroom pay a bride price?Or the bride pay a groom price?Are wives or husbands simply kidnapped?
Zette: Women in a polygamous marriage often have less work because it is shared with the other wives.However, it can also become a hierarchy of stations, with the newest and youngest getting the grunt work while the first wife reigns as queen.
A polyandrous marriage means one woman has two or more husbands.This might work in a society that is either over populated, or has a much higher male to female ratio.
Do not forget to take into account the extended families when you start looking at courtship and marriage.Perspective in-laws often have much to say about whether the other family is suitable.
And, of course, consider any class barriers to be crossed in a match.Also, the more primitive the culture, the most likely it is that one or the other (or both) might have to prove themselves a suitable match -- a good worker, a good hunter, etc.
Is marriage permanent? What are the ways that it can be dissolved?Returning the bridge gift?Hiring an assassin to kill the husband?
How about engagements?Are they held strictly binding?Is a child matched up with a mate at a young age, and if so when do they first meet?
If you are working with an alien race, look back again to the habitat and consider anything that might make this group different in its marriage arrangements.
And what about a star faring culture?What changes might you find in marriage rules on ships?
QUESTIONS
Robert&Ari--Lot of my questions got answered later in the section!
CiceroCat--when you were talking about permancy of marriage, does some cultures actually have marriage only last a certain amount of years?then they can choose someone else if they want afterwards?
PuristLove--How often do cultures pop up where there is no marriage, in other words free love, or mating for less than life?I can think of the handfasting ritual for one
PuristLove--are there others?
Robert&Ari--A pagan handfast is a year and a day as if married, and needs to be renewed.
@zette--I have an example of an odd sort of marriage of that type coming up in families.But ... this is about what you can create for YOUR books.If you want something like that, consider how the culture would build around it.
CiceroCat--cool, robert....
CiceroCat--was that to me or PL?
Robert&Ari--A culture might consider sensibly that having a child meant a permanent commitment on the couple's part and they couldn't divorce till the child reached a certain age.
CiceroCat--hmmm, lol--i ask because i was considering such a marriage type in one of my worlds....
Robert&Ari--Some cultures won't let someone who's barren or infertile marry at all.
Robert&Ari--Or allow that as grounds for divorce.
CiceroCat--really?
@zette--There are a some cultures where wives can be given away as gifts.You can create just about anything you want for a fantasy or sf book.Just consider the ramifications.
CiceroCat--ah
CiceroCat--k
@zette--In your case, CC, you might want to consider how they would view 'homes.'Who gets what?Who provides what?How do they part and move on?
karenth--Imagine a society where, either because the children mature quickly, or the society is structured that all children are taken care of, that marriage is purely for companionship...
Cailin--Consider the reverse - the female dominant in the marriage and able to give the HUSBAND away.
Robert&Ari--There's a twist on this that I ran into in that the Middle East thinks of women as being sexually voracious and likely to be unfaithful, much of the West thinks it's the reverse.
CiceroCat--hmmm, thanks zette--I'll definitely think about those consequences.
Robert&Ari--Is fidelity an issue and which gender is more under suspicion of sleeping around?
CiceroCat--like a tribe raises the child, karenth?
karenth--"takes a village" yeah
@zette--Marriage is something that too few people consider in making a culture, and yet you can have a lot of fun with it in creating something different for your book.
PuristLove--I guess the biggest issue in a culture where there is no marriage would be birthright
PuristLove--have to be matrilineal
karenth--oh, yeah...
CiceroCat--yeah
CLASS
8. Sex
Definition: the instinct or attracting drawing one individually toward another, or the cultural phenomena, behavior or activities that it motivates.
Killough: ... This is the place to think about sex practices, restrictions, taboos.Is sex strictly relegated to marriage or some other formal arrangement?Or not?Is rape physically possible among your people?
What sexual slang do they have?My characters have referred to 'counting coup,' 'flat dancing,' and 'skin talk,' and used the terms 'ho' and 'het' to label peoples' sexual preference.
Zette: When is it appropriate for a couple to engage in sex?What sorts of rituals are taken before or afterwards?In some cultures, sexual contact is considered a contamination that must be cleansed.
How much education about sex is given in your culture?What are the roles expected to be played by the people involved, either in submission or dominance?
What are the results of not following the laws or rites associated with sexual behavior?What choices do the people have in deciding their own preferences?
QUESTIONS
@zette--I kept this one purposely short because i'm sure you people can think of plenty of choices with this one all on your own.(grin)
CiceroCat--lol
Robert&Ari--These are all wonderful sources of conflict, right down to "one character's culture does not kiss" level for the G rating version.
karenth--
CiceroCat--oh yeah
@zette--Okay, get your minds back on work.
PuristLove--In a society with a strict social hierarchy, where each tier must be completely submissive to the higher tiers in the case of sex, what would be neccessary to make everyone happy about the arrangement?
CiceroCat--lol
karenth--lol
Jehane--why do they have to be happy?
PuristLove--I know bonobo chimps are like this, has it ever been done in people?
CiceroCat--true
@zette--Not that I know of, PL.
Jehane--they might just be accepting - that's the way it's always been done
PuristLove--Jehane, I'm trying to do something in the tradition of De Sade, where a different set of morality is presented, but its just as "right" as ours
CiceroCat--maybe, like in a Auel's cave people books--have it be a signal that says when they want to uhm have sexual relations wiht a person
CiceroCat--no so much as--just grab and take ?
Robert&Ari--Jean Auel pretty much did that in Clan of the Cave Bear among the Clan, the women all served the men's needs and didn't connect that with fertility.
Kay--I cannot imagine any circumstance in which everyone would be happy with the arrangement, or any thing that could make it so
CiceroCat--is that what you mean?
@zette--But the lowest rank, especially, would have to have some 'payment' to make it acceptable.Or perhaps what you have is a 'round' heirarchy, rather than a layered one, which would put bottom and top closest toeach other.
CiceroCat--lol robert we are in sync
PuristLove--oooh zette, that is interesting, thank you
Robert&Ari--Or the lowest rank isn't expected to be happy at all, being scapegoats for everyone else.
karenth--maybe the submissive ones could get to keep the children?
CiceroCat--true
Jehane--possibly some sort of religious connection, where the higher ranks are closer to the god(s)
PuristLove--hmm I think I'm going to disconnect children from sex altogether... these are elves, their kids can come from magic
Robert&Ari--Who said your culture had to be just or right or livable except to the people advantaged by it who think it's okay and grew up taking it for granted?
PuristLove--sex is solely for pleasure
PuristLove--and social domination
Jehane--so being singled out from an above rank would be good
CiceroCat--neat idea PL
@zette--Keeping the children is not always the way to happiness, especially if they are the ones caring and providing for them.
CiceroCat--so it would be like an honor, PL?
CiceroCat--i mean, Jehane
Jehane--yeah
CiceroCat--that could work--depends on the people's views i guess
karenth--true, zette...
PuristLove--ok, I'm getting a lot of good ideas on this
@zette--PL, if they're elves... connect sex with the transfer of magical pwoers.
Kay--Honor is nice , but it doesn't buy pampers or pay college tuition, and that translates every way except in an agrarian culture, wher children are working assets
Robert&Ari--Yeah, in any fantasy novel tantric sexual magic is a potent source of energy for all kinds of things.
@zette--Power can only be handed downward, in other words. Sex with an equal gains nothing.
karenth--except pleasure?
CiceroCat--well maybe they'd think it was a blessing--if it happens, they now will have good luck, good harvest, good hunt, etc
Cailin--That must suck for the people on top.
PuristLove--and with the circular arrangement, once it had worked its way to the bottom it could come back to the top, amplified somehow
Robert&Ari--Sex as a social defense against those above, who can choose anyone they want anytime for pleasure or dominance.
@zette--Not if they are already very powerful, and Godlike, able to give power as a gift to others.
CiceroCat--nother good idea robert
@zette--That might work, PL!
Robert&Ari--But those at the top might be competitive with each other and might not have it that easy.
PuristLove--maybe I could disconnect sexual dominance from social status also
PuristLove--have it tied to time of year your born or something
karenth--interesting, purist!
@zette--Play around with different ideas, PL.I think you might have something interesting here.
Robert&Ari--That's something very different again, interesting, PL
@zette--Ah!Back to class!
PuristLove--yeah, i think this will be fun
CLASS
9. Families
Definition (Family) Any group of persons closely related by blood, as parents, children, uncles, aunts and cousins.
Killough: What kind of families do your people have?Is Father or eldest male head of the family, or does the real power reside with Mother or the eldest female? What is the actual family structure?
Numerous possibilities exist beyond the nuclear or extended family. The family may be indistinguishable from the community, with ever older adult called Uncle, Aunt, Father, Mother, Grandfather, Grandmother...and all like-generation children called Cousin or Brother or Sister.
... Work out, also, the kinship nomenclature in your people.Where lineage is keenly important to the culture, kinship names become quite involved.
...How are children in your society named?With the family/clan name first followed by individual names?Are children named in honor of relatives or important people?
Zette:Do not get caught in the cultural trap of basing your family on the supposed norm of our day (mother, father, children as a single unit).Adapt them to your environment and the culture you are already beginning to create.
How is the right to belong to a family defined?What happens to the people who do not belong to a family in your world?Are orphans fair game for workshops?
Are outsiders without family powerless?Does marrying into a family give that person the same rights as one born into it?Are there strong adoption rights?
One Hindu sect, the Nayar, contract a marriage, which lasts only three days and ends in divorce.Women may take lovers, whom they may keep for years but dismiss simply by returning his last gift.The family unit is made up of the woman, her sons and daughters.
After the mother's death, the son moves into his sister's home and helps care for her children.The Nayar men are mercenaries, and it is believed that they should not set up households or take on the work of fathers, allowing them to take to the field at a moment's notice without incurring problems at home.
QUESTIONS
Robert&Ari--Here's a good one: sibling adoption. He saves my life. I adopt him as brother. My mom must treat him like she does me.
CiceroCat--how would a race who wanted equality in gender have it relate to the family's last name?
Jehane--sounds like my kind of religion
CiceroCat--neat one robert
PuristLove--CC perhaps you mesh the names
@zette--last name could be place name, clan name, chosen name...
karenth--not a hyphenated name, but a blending?
karenth--ah PL
Jehane--cc: how about having daughters take mother's name, sons take father's
@zette--Or might not have a last name at all, but a set of chosen names that don't indicate any relationship with others in the family.
CiceroCat--ah
Robert&Ari--One story I read did just that, with a syllable from mom's name and a syllable from dad's and a new one for the child.
CiceroCat--that might work Jehane, never considered that
Kay--it's what Dan and I had agreed to
PuristLove--take the name of the most powerful family? one whose closest to throne?
Robert&Ari--Are you responsible for your parents' crimes and debts?
CiceroCat--i was considering doing--which ever family has the most power will be the name of the last name of the kids
CiceroCat--i just wonder how they keep track of their lineage then
karenth--fortunes rise and fall...
@zette--If there is political or status to be gained by association, that's the way it would go.
Kay--With Family Tree Maker, of course!
CiceroCat--and if it's equal they'd choose or do a hyphenatoin
karenth--lol kay!
Jehane--they might have to know their lineage very well, like Icelandic people
CiceroCat--lol kay
karenth--cc:with a time indicator maybe
CiceroCat--time indicator?
Robert&Ari--If you marry someone with children, do you automatically get to adopt those children? Do they take your name?
@zette--Or they might not care about lineage, except in royalty or something like that.
karenth--well, if you know the year the child was named, maybe you know what happened then
DragonDancer--when a clan begins to die out, would they want to be absorbed into another one or stand alone?
CiceroCat--hmm, true zette
CiceroCat--oh!okay, karenth
Robert&Ari--Are names given by shamans from omens seen at birth and have nothing to do with family?
Cailin--You might have a class of people whose sole job is to remember who begat whom, and their notable deeds.
CiceroCat--lots of interesting possibilities...
karenth--neat cailin!
Cailin--Like the filidh did in the ancient Celtic cultures
CiceroCat--lol, that might work too cailin!good i dea
Cailin--Or my mom does now, lol.
@zette--That's good Cailin!I can see if for fantasy, but you know... you could do something interesting with that for SF as well.
CiceroCat--go to a database of genealogy for sf?
karenth--or the family mentat
CiceroCat--
Robert&Ari--What about marriage and kinship between alien species whre breeding is right out of it? What's the relationship of that family's dragonriders' dragons to each other?
PuristLove--you could have an AI that keeps track of that, then starts mixing it up for reasons of its own
@zette--I'm thinking more in terms of a person who has that kind of power.LOL Karenth!
PuristLove--could be lots of fun
@zette--Ah yes, an AI ... could make an interesting story.
karenth--lol purist!
Robert&Ari--AI's are people, I wouldn't throw that out.
@zette--Okay, next section!
Robert&Ari--What's the kinship of an AI to the group of programmers who worked on him before he awoke to mature consciousness? And to other AI"s written by some but not all of those people?
karenth--cool!
CLASS
10. Pregnancy
Definition The state, condition or quality of being pregnant.
Killough:The beliefs and customs surrounding childbirth vary widely on our planet.One society expects pregnant women to continue activity as usual up to labor and resume it shortly after.Another treats pregnant women as though they are ill and fragile...
Alien anatomy, though, may make childbirth something completely different from any on earth, from the marsupial, who gives birth without labor and can actually see and touch her child, to the oviparous female who can lay her eggs and leave their care to someone else while she goes on about her usual activity until the eggs hatch.
... so how do your people go about bearing children?What customs and taboos surround the process?Any ceremonies?Do they attempt sex selection? Do they have superstitions or rituals to divine the sex...?
Who delivers the baby... the mother by herself... with the assistance of family women or a midwife... a doctor?Where does childbirth take place... home... a hospital?Elsewhere?
Zette: Are there rituals surrounding the appearance of a new child?Is the child named immediately?Do members of the family or clan acknowledge the child, or must the child survive a prescribed number of days before it is believed to be acceptable?
What happens to a woman who has a dangerous preganacy? Is abortion possible to save the life of the mother?Is your society one that might go through regular and dangerous famines and regulate childbirth accordingly?
Diamond Jenness, in The People of the Twilight, told of how an Eskimo woman who gave birth to a daughter just before the tribe migrated.They killed the baby knowing she would suffer far worse through the terrible hardships of the coming journey, when many of the tribe starved.
QUESTIONS
Robert&Ari--Female infanticide seems to come up in many distant cultures with harsh conditions as a way of regulating tribe size.
@zette--These are fairly short sections, but a lot to think about for your curlture.
CiceroCat--true
CiceroCat--doesn't china do that, robert?
Robert&Ari--That's what I was thinking.
CiceroCat--it seems kinda weird, to me--if you let it go too far, there's only men and so few women
CiceroCat--then they start killing off the males, i guess
Kevin--how about a culture that practices infantcide as a way of propagating evolution, to evolve to one habitat more rapidly
Robert&Ari--I think war does that.
Gayle--which is why women are kidnapped and taken to another province (china)
CiceroCat--btw, i do have a question--before uhm more modern times... let's say in a medievalish time--did a lot of women die in childbirth?
karenth--kevin, that's interesting....
DragonDancer--cc: YES
CiceroCat--never thought of that, kevin--neat
CiceroCat--thnx dd
Cailin--Women usually stay close to home and have a higher survival rate. Males can be killed working, hunting, fighting, etc.
@zette--Yes.Childbed fever was a major factor in the death of women and their children.
Robert&Ari--Midwives in the middle ages were sometimes prosecuted for giving anesthesia to women in childbirth because it went against Genesis saying women should suffer in labor.
CiceroCat--whoa
karenth--snarl
Cailin--,!,, that! Give me the anesthesia!
PuristLove--kevin that has interesting implications for the gene mapping stuff... already if a child has a genetic disorder and something that CAN be fatal, the parents are given the choice to let the child die without medicine when first born
CiceroCat--lol cailin---i'm with ya, girl
@zette--Robert, they had no such thing in medieval times. They might have some herbs and such... but over all there was very little they could do anyway.
Robert&Ari--From the sources I read, some of the herbs were fairly effective, but even trying was considered sinful.
@zette--Ah, I can see that.
PuristLove--opium poppy would have been around...
CiceroCat--yeah
Kevin--exactly PL.i was also thinking if a species migrated from forest to plains, they would kill the smallest and the runts as opposed to the larger, hardier children and the opposite if they are moving to the forest
Cailin--A good dose of opium.... yup
DragonDancer--I read about one culture where the woman doesn't find childbirth painful but her husband struggles beside her and acts like he's suffering
@zette--In some places, PL. It was not all that common, I don't think.
Robert&Ari--Dragon - I ran into that in more than one culture.
CiceroCat--lol, poor runts/smaller children
PuristLove--Kevin, you could make a powerful point with that story
DragonDancer--wow, didn't know it was more than that one, Robert! cool...
CiceroCat--also, a consideration on the abortion aspect--when is it too late to have one?Maybe a culture considers a newborn of a few days still as abortion-able
Robert&Ari--Marion Zimmer Bradley used it with the telepathic caste on Darkover, the husbands DID experience it with the woman.
@zette--Again, losts of stuff to consider here that not many writers cover.
CiceroCat--neat dd
Robert&Ari--And for aliens there's the seahorse biology, the male takes the fertilized eggs into his pouch!
@zette--Alien Nation
PuristLove--yeah
CiceroCat--neat
PuristLove--would a marsupial creature be much closer in bond to the parent that carried it?
Robert&Ari--Alien Nation did it beautifully with much complex ceremony and social connection and reverence for it.
PuristLove--or be too young to form that bond?
DragonDancer--that is very cool
Robert&Ari--Any marsupial race might develop prenatal adoption fairly easily, making stepmothers a lot closer to their children.
@zette--I think the bonding is about the same, PL, in terran marsupials.
@zette--Onward! Running out of time!ACK!
CLASS
11. Childhood
Definition The state or period of being a child.
Killough: Childhood varies profoundly with the culture.Children may be considered merely small versions of adults, expected to behave like adults and share as much of the labor as their size and strength permit.
Or children may be given freedom from responsibility until a certain age.In groups with high infant mortality, children are not named nor considered truly born until they have survived for a requisite number of days or weeks...
Many African societies group children in age-grad divisions, and most of their childhood activities center around that group.In adult life, their closest social ties remain in their age-grade division....
Are there taboos connected with childhood?What games do children play?What toys do they play with...?
In working out childhood, match it to adult life.Fierce warriors are not unlikely to have spent a carefree, insulated childhood, nor is the carefree childhood likely to exist in a frontier/colonial setting where the population is struggling...
Zette:Who is responsible for the welfare of the child on a day-to-day basis?Often it is an older sister who takes care of the children, especially in a society where the preparation of food takes considerable work.
Is the child allowed to roam free at a young age?Is everyone in the community expected to take care of the children?
Can a child turn to some other member of the community for protection from an abusive parent?
What obligations does the child owe to the community as he ages?At what age is it possible for the child to leave the community?
QUESTIONS
Robert&Ari--These are all sources of conflict when one group is living within a mixed society, one culture's abuse is another culture's routine custom.
@zette--I missed a line there, where it switched from Lee to me!
Cailin--I'm experimenting in role-play with a character who never WAS a child. She was created, fully grown. It's had profound effects on her psychology.
@zette--Zette:Who is responsible for the welfare of the child on a day-to-day basis?
@zette--Sounds like an interesting character.
@zette--Not much to say this round?
Cailin--Good GODS, she's fiercely maternal - but sometimes doesn't understand the children.
CiceroCat--it would sound like she'd be childlike mentally while in an adult body until her mind development got caught up
Cailin--CC - yes. She was very like that.
CiceroCat--cool
CLASS
12. Elders
Definition (Elder) Of great age; older.An aged person.
Killough: in many societies, especially those without writing, elders are vitally important.Having lived the longest, they know the most.... they are the repository of history.... but a written language to preserve knowledge makes society members with long memories less important.
How does your society regard and treat its ledgers?Are they honored for their knowledge?Looked to for guidance and judgment?Or discarded as no longer useful once past their physical prime?
Zette: In traditional Chinese society, a young wife moves in with her husband's family and may spend many lonely years as an outsider, the bottom rung in the family's household.
She works at her mother-in-law's orders, and is not allowed to show any emotional attachment to her husband, and must not speak to him in public, or refer to him by name.
However by the age of about fifty or sixty, this woman will become the head of her own household, with daughters-in-law and grandchildren of her own.Her sons will be closer to her than to their father, though her daughters will move away with husbands.
However, another change will occur when the sons move off with their families to create homes of their own.At this point she loses her authority, but will be equal to her husband who is likely to old to work the fields any longer.
QUESTIONS
Robert&Ari--It's something to pay attention to with all those long lived and immortal races like elves and vampires too, whose elders are physically no different from the young.
CiceroCat--like infantcide, i wonder if there's such a thing for aged people?
mosylu--gericide?
Kevin--i'm considering a culture where the elders supress writing, so as to maintain importance in society
PuristLove--euphanasia cicero
PuristLove--think kevorkian
CiceroCat--yeah....neat kevin
CiceroCat--ah pl
@zette--There are many cultures where the old are left behind to die when they can't keep up.
mosylu--what about if an elder was regarded as not quite all there? the respect for their knowledge would be absent, true?
@zette--But it is less likely to happen in a sedentary society.
karenth--what would an elder-oriented society look like?
Jehane--I read about one nomadic culture where the very old will often leave to group to die so they are not a burden
Kevin--guess that would be geriatricide or something..
CiceroCat--ah
PuristLove--zette, the Long Walk of the eskimos comes to mind
Kay--Keep in mind the Elizabeth Moon society with rejuvenation and the class struggles that's bringing about
Robert&Ari--Or like this society where the cildren can try to have the elder committed and gain control of their fortune.
Jehane--euthanasia, cc
CiceroCat--
Kay--also consider how our society tucks elderly people away in "rest" or "nursing" homes, often drugging them into complacency as in that one E. Moon book
@zette--I'm going to cover one more section tonight, and then we can talk about any or all of them.
CiceroCat--k
CLASS
13. Death
Definition The act of dying, the end of life.
Killough:How do your people deal with death?What beliefs and rituals do they practice in regard to death and how do they dispose of the body?
Religion determines many attitudes and beliefs.My Hees believed that while the bodied died, the person lived as long as someone remembered him.
To that end, they inscribed the name on a cup and placed it in a special room where the dutiful members of the family walked the rows of cuts during meditation, touching each in turn.
If your bodies are buried, are they embalmed and laid out straight?Curled in a prenatal Position?Put in protective containers?Or put in a jar with holes punched in the bottom to let the fluids drain away?
Zette:Is death considered a contamination to those around them?Are departing spirits placated?Are the dead buried with special supplies for an afterlife?
Is there also a ritual death? Can a person be proclaimed dead, and turned out from the community?Would they go through all the rituals of a real death? And ignore the presence of the living person?Would that person be killed if caught after the ritual death?
Are the dead feared?At least one Greek General fell in disgrace when he failed to recover the bodies of soldiers who fell in a sea battle, and were therefore believed to have caused Athens bad luck because they did not receive a proper burial.
Are the dead revered?Is a person of power apt to be considered more than just dead, but transcended.A Roman Emperor, in a jest on his deathbed, told those around him that he felt himself becoming a god.
What is the origin of ghosts, and are they always feared, or are they some times sought for answers to questions that fall outside the realm of normal experience?
Questions
CiceroCat--could burial standards differ according to class?
Kay--which roman emperor?
Robert&Ari--I had fun with that and ancestor worship. Use of a zombie spell and connecting control of the zombie to the ghost by the telepathic people gave walking sacred ancestors who constantly gave advice.
@zette--Oh absolutely. They usually do. That's why we have 'potters' fields' where the poor are buried.
Robert&Ari--With a process that if they burnt the shrine, they freed themselves for rebirth.
CiceroCat--i have an idea to make the more rich people of a fire/sun worshiping society believe that fire (cremation) releases the soul--and that only poor people are buried
CiceroCat--ah neat zette
@zette--I knew someone would ask which emperor... hold on.
(Answer found later and not quite the quote I first saw... perhaps in the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? The Durrant Story of Civlization?) Woe is me. I think I'm turning into a god. ~~ Vespasian, Roman Emperor, d. 79 AD
karenth--what if becoming a ghost was the norm.Death would just be leaving the room.
CiceroCat--neat karenth
Cailin--A dying person touches the abdomen of a pregnant woman, believing that his soul is transfered into the child. The child is then named after him and even has some of his memories and abilities later in life......
Robert&Ari--One space culture had the body recycling into hydroponics as sacred and holographic memorials in a golden corridor.
karenth--cailin....cool
Robert&Ari--Ooh cool, Cailin!
CiceroCat--i read a fanfic where dead people were recycled into food and this was what everyone ate
karenth--the golden corridor, robert.i like that.
Jehane--i thought about death being like a transcendence, moving on to another plane of existence, like a caterpillar emerging as a butterfly from a cocoon
Robert&Ari--Heinlein - stranger in a strange land had that custom too, the Martians did.
@zette--Kay -- it was one of the post Claudian Emperors, I think from The Year of the Five Emperors, or may be one of the early ones right afterwards... but I can't find my book right now!
Robert&Ari--Caligula had that, I thought.
Kay--s'okay, thanks for looking!
PuristLove--i think death is probably one of those things that will cross even species boundaries as NONE of us know with certainty what happens... it would be fun to write about a culture that did know
Robert&Ari--I know he ordered his horse deified.
Cailin--(is frankly amazed Zette keeps ANY of her books straight as to the contents and current location of each)
Robert&Ari--And in SF, you have cryogenic burial-revival and transferring mind of deceased to electronics to live again as AI.
karenth--pl...they could be hounded by all the other species, demanding to *know*
@zette--I really don't know where this particular book disappeared to, which means I was probably reading it and sat it down somewhere, and now it's buried under a ton of other books.Poor thing.
Kay--ordering his horse's shit deified wouldn't surprise me about Caligula, Robert.Ari should have hung around and satirized HIM.
PuristLove--and if what they found out wasn't good... what effect would that have on them?
karenth--yeah....
mosylu--isn't religion a way of saying we'll know what happens after death? so even if they publicized the fact that they knew, other cultures might dismiss it as their religion
Robert&Ari--You find out after death that you're the personal property of advanced Lovecraftian entities that are ending the experiment. OR you were just chess pieces.
PuristLove--mosylu, and that is why religion gets questioned eventually
PuristLove--because we don't know
@zette--Caligula actually started out as one of the better emperors, by the way. We mostly only see references to his later years where he'd gone quite insane.
mosylu--it was the lead . . . all the lead
@zette--It might have been Vespasion, Kay.Or not.
CiceroCat--(wonders how big zette's reference library is)
Robert&Ari--In one fantasy novel I kidnapped Varus's lost legions and threw them through a gate as ghosts, Varus led them out of that alien hell and got deified for it.
@zette--Hey, we made it through another class!
karenth--a good one, too!
CiceroCat--in a fantasy novel of mine, i have this race/species/individuals whatever that won't die, unless the person they bond to dies
Robert&Ari--We sure did and it was so stimulating! It's fantastic, Zette!
CiceroCat--yup very informative
DragonDancer--did you think we wouldn't? g--
@zette--That sounds interesting CC!
Jehane--thanks zette
PuristLove--this was fun, I've got a lot of ideas to play with now
CiceroCat--told ya i was bond crazy, all ;_)
DragonDancer--this was wonderful, zette! Thanks muchly!
Kevin--it was great!
Gayle--thank you zette
karenth--lthanks for another one, zette!
@zette--Well, we have very many more of these classes to go through.I looks like about six sections per class, and about 50 sections...
Cailin--Thanks, Zette
CiceroCat--yup thanks again for this!i love these chats
Kay--Yes, thanks Zette!
mosylu--yes, thanks!
CiceroCat--and we got thro 12?
PuristLove--thank you
Robert&Ari--Thank you, Zette! So stimulating! I transcribed this time too, will mail.
@zette--I'm glad you all liked it!
@zette--Actually, we made it through 13.
@zette--But I rushed the last one, because I wanted death in with this group.
karenth--lol
Robert&Ari--Makes sense.
CiceroCat--neat zette
@zette--I've got it Robert.I won't need a copy.
DragonDancer--went well with this set
@zette--Any specific sort of questions?
karenth--yes, it fit.just thought it was funny how you put it just now
Kay--then I'll delete mine?copy i was transcribing i mean?
@zette--Other than the names of Emperors I can't recall?
CiceroCat--in medieval times--when were children considered adults?
@zette--Yeah, you can. And thanks Kay.
CiceroCat--i remembered too late to ask that one
Robert&Ari--Yeah, rites of passage are something to consider.
@zette--I believe that once they could do the work, they had the duties of adults -- but adults generally don't treat children as equals.
CiceroCat--ah--cause i thought that they were apprenticed out when young--like 13?
CiceroCat--if they were to apprentice out
PuristLove--it would be interesting to have a race where as soon as a child can point they are given voting rights
CiceroCat--lol
Gayle--I think they were apprenticed out younger than that cc
CiceroCat--that would be neat
PuristLove--so even infants are placed before the decision and must point to yes or no
CiceroCat--really, gayle?
karenth--
Robert&Ari--That would work in my telepathic culture!
PuristLove--I think pages were like 6 and squires could be as young as 9-10
@zette--Maybe Titus or Domitian.Sounds like Titus to me... (Emperor that is.)
CiceroCat--ah--thanx
Gayle--I think so...I think it was like 9 or 10...especially if they came from a poor family
@zette--Apprentice does not give adult rights.It's just labor to another adult.
PuristLove--yes
CiceroCat--ah
DragonDancer--I'm sure some parents lied about ages to get the kid apprenticed earlier, to get money faster
PuristLove--i think journeyman is when you start being treated as an adult
Robert&Ari--Yeah, anyone with a trade had a rite of passage in finishing apprenticeship.
Gayle--yeah...they got the grungy, gruntwork to do
@zette--They are (if they are really lucky) taught the trade of that adult, but they have no rights at all.
@zette--Apprenticeship didn't usually mean money to the adult either, though it did mean one less mouth to feed.Although that probably varied with cultures.
CiceroCat--thnx---i was trying to consider when a certain group of my people would be considered adults
@zette--Adult in this case should be parents.
CiceroCat--how so zette--did the apprentice not live with family?
PuristLove--bond-servant was where the parents got $$
DragonDancer--oh, oops
@zette--The apprentice usually lived with the 'master.'
CiceroCat--ah
CiceroCat--did the family have to pay the master to take on an apprentice?
@zette--They provided everything for the apprentice.Sometimes well, often not.
Gayle--and in the worst part of the house/work area
PuristLove--cc i've read that to be so sometimes... almost like a dowry
@zette--Yes, they took on the care, feeding, education, etc.
DragonDancer--I assumed that if the child apprenticed out, they would learn and then (hopefully sooner) start sending money to parents. Nothing like that?
CiceroCat--ok
karenth--i'm gonna slip out.goodnight, everybody!
DragonDancer--bye, karenth!
CiceroCat--nite karenth
PuristLove--nite karenth
@zette--But again... you can play with that for any story you write.That's the point, really, to look at possibilties.
Jehane--bye karen!
CiceroCat--true--that's what i love about fantasy
Gayle--night karen
@zette--Bye Karen!
PuristLove--I think most of what we've been saying is pretty european, aprenticeship probably worked very differently in other cultures...
Robert&Ari--I think that's why and how you can play with fantasy without magic - the cultural differences.
@zette--DD -- I don't know of any right off hand that worked that way.If the parents wanted money from the child, they would rent the child out to work places, rather than apprentice them.
CiceroCat--true PL
DragonDancer--ok. thank you!
Gayle--or sell the child outright
@zette--Very true, PL.
@zette--Oh yes, selling the child is not unheard of in many cultures.
mosylu--wouldn't that be more for the lower classes tho?
CiceroCat--not if you don't want it to be, mo
@zette--But also remember that most people don't want to buy a young child. They're a lot of work.
PuristLove--sold into prostitution was common
@zette--Mosy -- upper classes generally did not apprentice their children. They had businesses of their own, and passed the work to them.
CiceroCat--maybe the rich sell off extra children so they can't compete for inheritance
PuristLove--and still is in some parts of the world
mosylu--I can more easily see rich people selling kids off into marriage rather than prostitution/apprenticeship
@zette--If they had many children, they often gave them different aspects of the business -- one traveling to buy wool, one working with weavers, one selling, etc.
CiceroCat--brb, i need some food
mosylu--altho if prostitution is a highly respected business, even possibly sacred, it might be different
Pre-Class Rules:Please don't chat during class.Please do not post until you see the word QUESTIONS, and stop posting question when you see CLASS.I'll be glad to discuss any of this material later if there are any questions.
Welcome to Lee Killough's Checking on Culture -- A checklist for Cultural Building, Class 3.The Killough book is the primary work I've used for this class.Definitions come from the Random House Webster's College Dictionary.
Lee Killough has several books available from Meisha Merlin Press: Blood Walk and Blood Games, Bridling Chaos, and the upcoming Wilding Nights.You can find more information on these books here: http://www.meishamerlin.com
Lee Killough's book, Checking on Culture, is available.Anyone who wishes to can order this little gem by sending $5.00 plus $3.00 for postage and postage materials:
Lee Killough/PO Box 1167/Manhattan KS 66505-1167 (Be sure to tell her it is for Checking on Culture.)
Class one and two covered Part One of the material.Today we'll start on Part two which will take at least three or more classes as well.
Part Two: Community Interaction
The appearance of settled communities is a sign that a group has reached a certain level of 'civilization' that includes cooperation of large assemblages (from a few dozen to several thousand or more) for the betterment of the whole.
In order to cooperate with one another, any collection of people -- whether settled or nomadic -- must have a few things in common.Primary among them is language and common laws or customs.
Life takes a drastic change when people abandon hunting/gathering and settle down.The first communities are very small. Cities did not spring up over night.However, for various reasons people find good reasons to join together.
Permanent settlements allow for a diversity of occupations.When the level of subsistence is dependent upon how much food one can gather in a day (Hunter-Gatherer groups), then there will not be time for little else like sophisticated art.
When a people join together (sometimes for mutual defense against another group), they expand not only what they need, but what they can afford to support as well. Specialized work forces develop.
Groups may divide into guards, day laborers (sometimes working the fields outside the settlement), a growing priesthood, and artists.People may be employed strictly in 'support' roles, providing food, clothing, etc. for larger groups.
Sedentary populations give better protection to the weak, injured, and old, which allows for an overall longer lifespan. However, at the same time they make themselves susceptible to communicable diseases.
QUESTIONS
@zette-- This is just an intro to more detailed material.
Nonny-- Sorry I'm late!
Robert-- Got ya. Interesting that division of labor usually also begins serious class struggles...
@zette-- No problem.Just started.Go ahead and read through and we'll go on.Let me know when you're ready, Nonny.
Nonny-- Just finished reading the transcripts, and the clock on the main page said it was 8:50 ... it lied.
Nonny-- OK.
Nonny-- Finished reading it.
@zette-- Okay, on we go!
CLASS
1. Language
Definition: Language A body of words and the systems for their use common to a people of the same community or nation, the same geographical area, or the same cultural tradition.
Killough:Not being a linguist, I made no pretensions of constructing a real language for my people, but I do give them an alpha bet and some vocabulary because inevitably I need words for untranslatable concepts, objects and animals and I want the words and alien names to sound related....
...If necessary I modify the alphabet to my alien's vocal apparatus.Anatomy again!Some mouths cannot make human sounds.Imagine a dog, with its un-pursable lips, trying to say 'too' or 'when.'
Zette: The first need of any population is a way to communicate with one another.This becomes even more important when they begin to form larger communities, and can no longer get by with a few signs.
When two groups interact, there lack of a common language can be the first step to disaster.However, remember that if two peoples share a common border, they are also going to share some common words.
Lines on a map or passable streams and rivers do not confine language -- especially if you have established trade routes.Oceans, deserts, and mountains -- and entire star systems -- are better impediments.
However, bear in mind that there are two entirely different species of squirrels living on opposite sides of the Grand Canyon.You can invent very unusual reasons why your groups have different languages.
Also, very many words can seep into a language through an unexpected source -- slaves.Slave women often raised the young children of the richer element of the community and inadvertently infiltrated foreign words into the language.
Slaves might also introduce new farming techniques and tools, bringing new words (as well as ideas) into a settlement.Anything that improves the life of the larger group will likely be kept, including the words.
Also remember that accents, even when using the same words, can make something nearly incomprehensible. This proved true in much of England, where a person living twenty miles away was considered a foreigner.
Our lives are so conditioned by words that it may be impossible for us to experience something we do not have a word for.We think in words, so the larger a person's vocabulary, the more of the world that person can experience.
Therefore, words reflect the culture from which they come.If two cultures overlap, usually through invasion, you can find yourself with strange combinations.
Place names can reflect either an older city by the original name, or a new city, founded by the invaders.There can also be a dichotomy in the names of items between peasant and aristocracy.For instance, Anglo-Saxon peasant raised cattle, but the Norman lords ate beef.
Creating a language for world building can be fun, but don't let the material take over the story so much that it is impossible for a non-native to understand what's going on.
A very good example of how to properly use more than one language in a book is C.J. Cherryh's Hunter of Worlds.
Creating slang is a difficult aspect of language.It can often look really stupid when first introduced in a book, but with care can be worked into a story in such a way that it looks natural.
Humor is nearly entirely based within the culture, and jokes may not translate not only from one language to another, but from one culture to another.They can be very good starting points for someone working into a new culture to suddenly show an awareness that she does understand.
QUESTIONS
Nonny-- On slang -- does slang work better if it is a slightly altered version of our own?
Robert-- That's deep. It sounds like the untranslatable concepts are the best ones for establishing your original culture ideas!
@zette-- Sometimes.It just depends on the circumstances.
Anon_81-- sorry I'm late
Robert-- The thing you put in the book that took a paragraphs description, becomes shorthand in one word like "grok" or whatever.
@zette-- Really, you just want to create something that fits.In a story I'm working on now, I have a sea-bred alien call people from the stars 'sand' because they'd heard that they are so numerous.
Nonny-- Would bordering countries use the same language, or would the two languages overlap. Or perhaps there would be a third language known by many?
Kay-- Zette, do you need a transcriber, or would I just be wasting my time?
Nonny-- Cool, Zette!
Dani-- Some cultures are militant about not importing foreign words into their vocabulary, too.
Robert-- Ooh neat, Zette
Kay-- You mean like the French?
@zette-- Often the two languages overlap, but the closer to one border the more it will be in their language.
karenth-- "le weekend"
Dani-- And don't the Japanese keep a whole set of characters just for writing loan-words?
Kay-- Pas "le car"vous dites "voiture!"
Julia-- the more dominant language tends to force its words/ideas on the less-dominant one, I think
Nonny-- Hmm ... what about a trade language that most people, mainly merchants and the lower classes, know?
@zette-- What is it -- Alsace Lorraine that is either French or German, depending on who happens to have won what particular war -- and the language is pretty much both?
Nonny-- I know that's been done before, though.
Dani-- Are there any cultures that only have written and not spoken language?
@zette-- Trade languages are good.Latin was a trade language to most of the empire. So was Greek at one time.
Robert-- There's an old PBS special "Story of English" that pointed out English and Swahili were the two largest languages, being trade languages.
Kay-- I think you're right Zette!
CiceroCat-- were the pictographs spoken?
@zette-- Some cultures write in one language and speak in another.
karenth-- Sanskrit...was that spoken?
Dani-- Cool, Zette!
Kay-- English grows because it welcomes accretions of all kinds.
Robert-- Swahili too - and that it had absorbed literally hundreds of others on the way.
@zette-- Sanskrit was spoken at one time.Pictographs are signs -- pictures.It didn't matter what language you spoke, as long as you knew what the signs meant.
@zette-- We do the same thing with 'one way street' symbols, etc.
Nonny-- Huh. That could be useful to remember ...
@zette-- I can't keep up!
Dani-- Didn't some written languages develop for accounting purposes only initially?
CiceroCat-- ah
Julia-- (reaches down to keep zette from drowning)
CiceroCat-- lol
@zette-- Written language has very little to do with the development of spoken language.Sometimes it develops for 'accounting' and sometimes for religious reasons.
Kevin-- or maybe to keep historical records
@zette-- Okay, what questions did I miss?
Kay-- do you need a transcriber?
@zette-- Yes, historical records, too.Once a Dynasty begins, they want records of their family -- and especially their family lines.
Nonny-- Wasn't the Bible originally written in Latin and kept that way in Europe so the common people, who couldn't read Latin, wouldn't be able to read the Bible? Or am I misremembering my history here?
@zette-- Transcriber?For what?
Kay-- this class, or are you getting it yourself?
Gayle-- that's correct nonny
@zette-- Oh!Duh!Yes, please copy it.That way if I get dropped out because of storm, one of us might have it.
Kay-- okay.No duh -- you're concentrating on substance!
@zette-- Yes, you are right on the Bible, Nonny.
@zette-- The big change in religion came when people began translations.Wycliffe?Is that
<@zette> And I think it's time to get started!
@ Z - they'll show up in the N54 transcript tho' no?
