I have stopped going.June 13 2017 at 1:20 AM
|Iam1plus1plus1 (Login Ador_De_Leon)|
Just wanted to let everyone know that I have stopped going to church. Yes, we've finally did it. After the recent murders we just took a stand and aren't going anymore. OWE family was very disappointed of course, but it's just for the best. I was not getting anything out of it and was annoyed and irritated with the lessons, especially the 4 WebExs in a row. So that's that... no word from the Minister or whatever, but probably get a visit soon. Who knows.
Re: I have stopped going.
|June 13 2017, 1:52 AM |
Stay strong. You know you have made the right decision. God bless!
Hope it all works out for you.
|June 13 2017, 4:58 AM |
Please let us know
|June 13 2017, 9:06 PM |
What the Minister and Deacons say to you. It will be interesting to hear. Well probably not interesting, but I would like to compare it with what they said to my daughter several months ago when she left.
What did they say to your daughter?
|June 14 2017, 10:53 AM |
What did they say to her and how pushy were they with you?
They quoted some scripture
|June 14 2017, 3:03 PM |
The same ones they usually go with. They were actually pretty nice to here. And they didn't say much to me either. Honestly, I think they are kind of intimidated by me, and by Westerners in general because we tend to be less submissive than the Filipino members. The only harsh or pushy comments were to my wife. And then only by a couple of deacons/deaconesses which I think contributed to the divide between my wife and child.
Good news on that front by the way. The rift between them does seem to be healing slowly, and we seem to be getting back to being a normal family.
I will let you know what they say...
|June 19 2017, 3:15 AM |
I will tell you what they say when then come speak to me. It will be very soon though, so stand by.
So the Minister came...
|June 28 2017, 1:44 AM |
along with one of the head deacons. Wasn't too long of a visitation. Just basically was a "what's going on?" type of thing. Asked me what I thought and I told him that I don't believe in the doctrines anymore and just want to be respected for my beliefs. He didn't read any verses in the bible just tried to understand where I was coming from. Said he wanted to come visit again if that's ok. I said sure, but nothing is really going to change my mind. Didn't say I was expelled. So that's that. Not sure when they'll come again.
You can try some friendly church, like Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal,
|June 14 2017, 2:41 PM |
whatever, as long as they believe the gospel. You can find you will like it much more than your INC experience.
or give religion a miss altogether
|June 14 2017, 3:25 PM |
Which if you have been in INC for a while you probably have already wasted enough time on religion, all this baloney about salvation, wasting your life for some rainbow land that in all likelyhood doesn't exist. Even if there is a God would he she or it not prefer someone who is a decent person and couldn't believe for various reasons than someone who can't face inevitable extinction and just going to some religion because they think otherwise they are going to hell.
I think INC has turned me into an atheist or at least agnostic.
I was an agnostic before I joined
|June 14 2017, 5:12 PM |
I have traveled all over the world, seen a hundred different churches and religious beliefs, how they are all right and the others are wrong, or they are the only or in some cases, best path to salvation etc... Many of them will say I am a member of X religion due to god's or some other entities grace, when its really more because of their parents and culture. And before Tomas chimes in saying he is an exception, I grant that there are no absolute rules regarding children following their parents.
In my opinion though, INC is one of the worst I have encountered, simply because they are so closed and secretive, especially regarding finances. And they make to much of an effort at controlling the lives of their members, having every aspect of life revolve around the church, even going so far as to tell them who to vote for.
INC could actually win another Guinness world record
|June 15 2017, 12:55 AM |
As one of the worst religions. I wonder why anyone in their right mind would join, the answer is obvious, no one does. The only source of converts is the children brainwashed since birth.
Hijo, the true God is very loving, so if someone is a decent person and just can't
|June 16 2017, 7:13 AM |
believe for whatever reason and dies unbelieving, then after he or she is resurrected, the person will be taught correctly and will be given the opportunity to accept God and his Son, love them and repent of their sins, as we have all sinned. Of course some will be so evil they will not be able to repent and love God and his Son, so they will end up in the lake of fire. But others will be saved.
So those Christians who teach there is no possibility of salvation after death, they unfortunately are not following the Bible correctly, and are unwittingly defaming God, making him look very unfair. And INC is certainly one of the churches who are guilty of this. That is one of the reasons why I could not join INC.
Whereabouts in the bible confirms the 2Nd chance?
|June 16 2017, 10:38 AM |
I'm no bible expert, but am unaware of any reference in the bible to this chance to be saved after death when dying as an unbeliever? This contradicts all I have ever heard from Christians
Anyway even if true why bother just live now without wasting time on a God that may or may not be existing.
For example Is. 2:2-4 speaks of a time when Mt. Zion will be the highest mountain,
|June 17 2017, 4:53 PM |
above all mountains, and all nations will be going to it, and God will teach us of his ways, out of Zion will go forth the Law. Since it says all nations, this will include also nations that became extinct before any of their people even heard of God, much less been taught. So it will be the time after all people will be resurrected. The same prophecy was revealed also to Micah, see Micah 4:1-3, so it is an important prophecy, as it was revealed to two prophets.
Isaiah also reveals in 26:9-10 that when God's judgment dawns on the earth, the world's inhabitants will learn justice. But the wicked person will not learn justice, he will act perversely. So we can see that when we will be resurrected, the people will learn justice but the wicked will refuse to learn justice. This will be a time of judgment, as we see also in Is. 2:4 and Micah 4:3.
Zech. 14:16-19 prophesies that people of various nations will be coming to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles to worship God, and if some families refuse to come, they will be punished by drought or plague, and this will include the Egyptians. So clearly worshipers who used to be Egyptians will no longer be associated with Egypt.
In Mt. 25:31-46, Jesus is telling us that when he will come in his glory, and people will be divided in 3 groups, the brethren of Jesus, the sheep, who will be helping the brethren, and the goats, who will receive the eternal punishment. The brethren of Jesus are clearly the people who will die saved. The sheep in that story will be the people who will be saved after they are resurrected, and the goats are the people who will never be saved. So this will be the time of judgment, after we are resurrected, this will be clearly happening during the millennium, as the millennium will be the time when this new Law will be in effect, when the feast of Tabernacles will be mandatory for everyone, not like now, when it is not mandatory for anyone, or the time of the Law of Moses, when going to Jerusalem for this feast was mandatory just for Israelite males, not for women and not for non-Israelites. During that time God's temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, on Mt. Zion, and we will have sacrifices, as we can see in Ezekiel 43-48. But the sacrifice laws will not be identical to those in the Law of Moses. So this will be during the millennium, since following the millennium there will be no temple in the city, see Rev. 21:22.
There are already hundreds of Christian denominations that believe that the unsaved will have the opportunity to become saved after they are resurrected. Perhaps the first one in modern times who restored this biblical truth was the preacher Charles Taze Russell, who preached in the second half of the 19th century, until he died in 1916, he founded the International Bible Students Association. After he died, there were divisions in the association, they got split up into different denominations, the largest group was later renamed the Jehovah's Witnesses and later they became apostate, but they still teach similar doctrines about the resurrection and second chance for salvation after the resurrection. But in some doctrines they went far from what Russell was teaching. Christian denominations that teach basically the same as what Russell was teaching include for example the Dawn Bible Students Association, the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement, and a few smaller groups.
A somewhat similar teaching about conversions after resurrection was taught by Herbert W. Armstrong, who founded the now former Worldwide Church of God, but he placed the conversions at a time after the millennium, and I believe he was in error in this. After his death the Worldwide Church of God started changing many doctrines, became basically an average evangelical denomination, but some people stayed faithful to Armstrong's doctrines, though they might disagree on details, so some dozens of denominations basically faithful to Armstrong were founded, the largest is possibly the Philadelphia Church of God, which is named for the faithful church of Philadelphia in Asia Minor to whom Jesus dictated his letter for John to send it to Philadelphia, in Rev. 3. There are also some denominations which have made larger modifications to Armstrong's doctrines but still have similar doctrine about salvation after resurrection.
There are also a few denominations that teach a somewhat different doctrine, they teach that the dead are not totally dead, their souls are alive and they can be taught the gospel, they include for example the New Apostolic Church, and some offshoots from that church, and of course most famously this is taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and some of their offshoots, but they went into apostasy, so I would not recommend those Mormon churches. There are also some Evangelical pastors and theologians that teach a similar doctrine, but have not founded denominations, but might belong to larger denominations, in which their views are a minority, as most Evangelicals still unfortunately do not believe in salvation after death. Anyway, since the Bible teaches clearly that the dead are totally dead until the resurrection, I believe that such a view of conversions after death and before resurrection is in error.
Now you ask why then bother? Well, people who are not saved, even if they are mostly good people, they do not have God, if they pray to God, then he will not listen to their prayers, so their prayers are not answered, for example they can pray for healing but no supernatural healing will come to them. So it is beneficial to get to know God and become saved, then God loves you and can answer your prayers, even if the answer is not quite what you requested. So sometimes there is supernatural healing, but sometimes the answer is no healing for the disease, you just have to endure, finally you will die, and then you will be resurrected healed, when Jesus comes back.
I am with you Hijo...
|June 19 2017, 3:18 AM |
I don't know if I will go to another religion. I am not actively looking for one also. I will have it look for me. But for now, my view of the world and about religion in general have changed and can not go back to how it was. But I am leaning very heaving on Atheism.
You are leaning very heavily on atheism? But there is no proof there is no God.
|June 19 2017, 5:39 AM |
No scientist has found proof of no God. But the Bible proves there is a God. So please don't give up on Christianity, just because you have had a bad experience with INC.
Shifting the burden of proof
|June 20 2017, 1:33 AM |
"One way in which one would attempt to shift the burden of proof is by committing a logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance. It occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true."
"Holder of the burden
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo."
Well, certainly atheists have the burden of proof, to try and prove that God does not
|June 22 2017, 12:27 AM |
exist. Like I used to be atheist, when I was still living in the former Czechoslovakia, and I thought almost everybody around me is an atheist, and certainly the media just had atheist propaganda and no other voice was heard on the media. So I thought Marxist science has proven there is no God. But after I came to America, when I was 15, one day I started thinking what proof do I have, since by that time I was no longer a Marxist, and I found I have no proof, so I had to convert to agnosticism. Then several decades later I thankfully converted to Christianity, so I am now a Theist. So now I know the Bible proves the existence of God.
Atheists aren't making a claim that God does not exist
|June 24 2017, 4:43 PM |