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The "Stack and Tilt" golf DVD.

July 8 2008 at 7:33 PM
  (Login Chazman)
SAGF Members 2000

I recieved this video from Mike Bennent and Andy Plummer who are the main proponents of the S&T and have converted many current tour players, including Mike Wier.

This video is being distributed by Medicus, and along with the video I recieved three medicus clubs, 7, 5 iron and the driver, although I didn't order them???

The videos are very technical and there is little if any footage of these guys actually hitting any balls.

They do make a very large departure from all other golf instruction in that they stress only three fundementals to having a good golf swing, and none of the fundementals include any of the usual suspects such as grip, stance, alignment, ball placement etc.

They claim the #1 fundemental for any good golf swing is the ability to have the clubhead repeatabilty hit the same place on the ground, time after time, and that that place should be in front of the ball.

Their contention is the average hack loads up his weight to the trail side on the backswing, and then never effectively gets that weight shift to the lead side on the downswing, thereby having the clubhead ground out in back of the ball. To compensate for this the average hack releases early and losses and effective COAM he/she might of had to hit an effective shot.

Their answer to compensate for this is to take a weight shift to the trail side compeletly out of the equation. They have to "Stack" put the weight on the LEAD side on the back swing by actually tilting your body towards the target side while doing this.

This gives a very centered swing where the lead shoulder goes very low on the back swing, and the trail shoulder is very high.

On the downswing you then make even more of a weight shift to the lead side and this causes ones swing to bottom out much further to the lead side then a normal swing does. The finish is a high reverse "C".

These two instructors are obviously TGM guys because they make numerous references to it and Homer Kelly. They even talk about "Accumulators" and the "flying wedge" which is Mark Eversheds "cocked trail wrist" being maintained throughout the entire swing.

I will give more info as I review more of the materials.

There is 4 dvds in the package.

 
    
AuthorReply

(Login golfballhunter)

Re: The "Stack and Tilt" golf DVD.

July 8 2008, 9:18 PM 

Their answer to compensate for this is to take a weight shift to the trail side completely out of the equation. They have to "Stack" put the weight on the LEAD side on the back swing by actually tilting your body towards the target side while doing this.


MR. CHAZMAN, IN A GOLF DIGEST article a few years ago
they tested the pros and all had a shift of weight
to the trail leg.
I think Larry Nelson was the closest at being
centered at the top with 55-45 weight distribution
at the top.
How do the s&t guys deal with that?

JC

 
    

(Login Chazman)
SAGF Members 2000

They literally have you tilt your upper body to the lead side on the backswing

July 10 2008, 12:42 PM 

They have your lead shoulder go under your head (not around) and if you look at this move with graphic placements (like they have on the video) the head and swing is very much centered and there is very little lateral head movement in the swing at all.

At the top of the backswing, 55 % of your weight is still on the lead side.

This is really nothing new, this is the old style swing where the finish at the top was a reverse "C".

There is video on this site explaining this swing.

http://www.stackandtilt.com/land02.php?sid=51989&gclid=CKDj2uLptZQCFQRksgodriH7Tg


    
This message has been edited by Chazman on Jul 10, 2008 1:19 PM


 
    
David
(Login davidy48)

Re: They literally have you tilt your upper body to the lead side on the backswing

July 10 2008, 2:49 PM 

I've been using S+T since reading the original ( not tremendously good ) articles in Golf Digest last year. Since then I've never hit the ball so well, my handicap has dropped from 10.7 to 8.7, I've had my first ever hole in one and won a few things too. The feeling of compressing the ball with the irons is quite amazing.

It is indeed of particular value to players who never quite feel they've got their weight over to the left side at impact. It's a One Plane swing and therefore quite simple and efficient, low maintenance which is also valuable for people like me who think life is too short to be standing on the range all day.

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

Re: They literally have you tilt your upper body to the lead side on the backswing

July 10 2008, 6:55 PM 

Do you have any since of weight moving to your trail
side at all when you swing?
When you set up what do you think your weight distribution is?
Do you hit any iron shots thin and did you have to alter
your ball position?

I don't know much about s&t, but there is still a weight
shift of some kind right? I mean you don;t set up with your upper body tilted to the lead side before you swing?
ONE more please- do you feel like you might step through a
shot when you tilt.
OK.ONE MORE DO you tilt as far forward as you can or
can you or do you overdo it sometimes?

jC

 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: They literally have you tilt your upper body to the lead side on the backswing

July 10 2008, 8:54 PM 

Hi David,

Glad to hear of your success!

I had thought the stack and tilt would work best as a one plane swing since two plane swings are supposed to need more 'width', meaning a weight shift to the trail side on the backswing. I am of course assuming that you mean one plane swing as specified by Jim Hardy? That is the lead arm is more or less on plane with the shoulders at the top of the backswing?

Thanks in advance, Herbert

 
    
Gerry
(Login gascager)
SAGF Members 2004

Sounds like...

July 10 2008, 3:38 PM 

BGG from the preset position. What are the similarities and differences? Besides the grip and SA alignment I mean. Specifically the Stack and Tilt vs the Preset

 
    

(Login Chazman)
SAGF Members 2000

Difference is............

July 10 2008, 4:01 PM 

In BGG you get in the preset position, swing back with a weight shif and then on the downswing you go back to the preset.

On the S&T you lean to the left on the backswing, keeping the swing centered and then move more to the lead side on the downswing. There in NO weight shift to the trail side in S&T, none at all.

 
    
Jerry
(Login thinkin2)

I like how they hide the price...

July 10 2008, 3:49 PM 

It's $19.95 until you get to the last order page where the fine print at the bottom informs you of the other payments you'll be making, lol. Why don't they just tell you up front what the cost is? This infomercial type of advertising always makes me suspicious but I have read of others having lots of success with this swing. There's a guy on the FGI forum who has a very long running thread about his journey with it. Sure like to know how others are doing with this as well. How about you, Chaz? What are your thoughts so far? Do you feel this is something that might work for you? Best of luck.

Jerry

 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: I like how they hide the price...

July 10 2008, 8:58 PM 

Hi Jerry,

I thought it interesting also how they mention 'getting stuck'. LOL, the immediate thought of the typical hacker is 'hmmmm, getting stuck is what happens to Tiger, I better not let that happen to me!' Terrific salesmanship in my opinion.

I wonder though what you need the instructional stuff for anyway, it seems simple enough to me???

Regards, Herbert

 
    

(Login Chazman)
SAGF Members 2000

So far it works with the irons, and the short game. The jury is out on the driver.

July 11 2008, 12:47 AM 

If anyone has problems chipping and on small pitch shots, this works very well, easy in fact.

It is easier to chip and pitch this way then it is with the IMA method, which I have been using for years now.

 
    
David
(Login davidy48)

Re: So far it works with the irons, and the short game. The jury is out on the driver.

July 11 2008, 5:12 AM 

Chazman's reference to pitching and chipping is very relevant - since for those shots plenty of weight on the left foot is the recommended method. A few months before I even knew of S+T, I had extended that method to long pitches with wedges and my 9 iron, so the adaptation of S+T for everything was extremely easy. I've heard of people having driver problems but I've never experienced them personally.

Herbert - it is indeed a Single Plane swing as per Hardy - indeed if you have his dvd's you will see a lot of similarities. The major difference I feel is in the "standing up " motion on the downswing, which makes the followthrough look a bit like a reverse C.

 
    
Inline
(Login singleplane)
SAGF Members 2004

weight shift

July 13 2008, 11:02 AM 

i have found that keeping the front loaded with increasing load on the long clubs greatly affects distance and tends to create a reverse pivot when I try to hit it harder. It is in these situations that I do not concern myself with keeping the weight on the front. Instead, I make sure that I have set up properly and then everything works automatically. This includes what I would not term as a weight shift but more as a balancing in the backswing. I would guess that my weight distribution is probably no more than 60-40 back to front-- but it is definitely skewed towards the back. More important though is that it is weighted very tight, between the insteps so that the loading of the front can happen fast and easily. This is partly why the backswing in S&T is not as large as one sees in many other swing styles. It also is conducive to a narrower stance.

 
    
Inline
(Login singleplane)
SAGF Members 2004

Me and Stack and Tilt

July 11 2008, 1:34 PM 

I have not seen this new DVD but have been investigating S&T since the article last year. I have come up with a number of beliefs which don't quite jive with some of what I have read in this thread.

Most importantly, I think that the no weight shift interpretation is an exaggeration intended to move golfers out of their comfort zone. This hopefully gets them where they should be. I believe that there absolutely has to be a weight shift back ( but only somewhat) and then forward.

Once this important belief is accepted, I started to be able to better dissect why the S&T is really successful, at least to me. I think that what it does is eliminate a key element of destabilizing weight shift. What does this mean? Think of the trail side of your body as two segments joined by a hinge at your hips. Consider three states that your trail side can be in. State 1 is hinged so that the acute angle is away from the target. This should be the position at impact. State 3 is hinges so that the acute angle is basically towards the target. This would only occur during the backswing. State 2 occurs only when the hinge is perfectly straight. Now going from start the finish on the swing, a golfer may start at State 1, go to State 2 into State 3 at the top of the backswing and then reverse it 3-2-1 in the DS and striking the ball. I am not suggesting that this is a good, I am merely suggesting that it is a typical pattern for many golfers. The key item in this progression is what happens to the hinge, the hips in this swing progression. At State 2 they will normally be at their highest unless the golfer is somehow making adjustments with their knees. Think of State 2 as the top of the mountain.

Now from this basis, if becomes clear to me what can go wrong with my swing when I have this type of weight shift. I start off on one side of this mountain, go over the top, then come back over the top, and finally strike the ball.
For me, the stack and tilt is a set up which always keeps me on the same side of the mountain. This eliminates getting stuck on the wrong side of the mountain and reduces the variability that results from going over the mountain twice in my swing. This does not mean that I do not have weight shift. I just set up in a manner so that the weight shift all happens on the same side of the mountain.

I had the privilege of playing with an better than scratch golfer recently who at 21 had been playing for about 10 years and pretty much self taught. He is long, straight, and incredibly accurate. His golf coach ( now that he is playing in college) commented that his swing looked S&T. Watching him, I would also agree and would point out that it does not hurt distance, is incredibly consistent, does have some weight shift to the trail side-- but absolutely does not go over the mountain.


    
This message has been edited by singleplane on Jul 11, 2008 2:57 PM


 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

State 3

July 11 2008, 1:50 PM 

If I understand you correctly state 3 is a sway and should be avoided. I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a pro at TOS who's body is angled towards the target???

I like the mountain analogy, I don't think that Jimmy Ballard would approve though.

Regards, Herbert

 
    
Inline
(Login singleplane)
SAGF Members 2004

Sway

July 11 2008, 2:40 PM 

I agree 100% that State 3 is a sway and should be avoided. What I do not know is if State 3 is ever a part of a good (PGA calber) swing. If it is, I suspect that controlling it is beyond us mere golf mortals. If it isn't and S&T eliminates it in a very easy manner, that helps to explain the apparent quick success of S7T.

There is some UTube video or Weir and Baddely out there, as well as some good analysis of their S&T swings. What I have seen is the the tilt towards the target is a feeling and not something that can necessarily be seen. One of the real differences is in the setup in which the hips are maybe an inch more towards the target than under a CG setup. My belief is this setup helps keep one on the same side of the mountain. Unfortunately, as I have found, there are right ways and wrong ways to get into this position, and the subtle differences in setup can be easily overlooked with disastrous results. I know it has been a bit of a problem with me and it seems as if Weir has had his share of problems also.

However, I am understanding the mechanics of it better every day. unfortunately it seems that I often get brain dead as soon as I get onto the course and take at least a half a round to wake up and make the necesarily corrections. With Clearkey and repetitions, this will undoubtedly improve.

 
    
Anonymous
(Login davidy48)

Re: Me and Stack and Tilt

July 11 2008, 2:07 PM 

Inline, that's a very interesting take on S+T. I had a brief debate on another forum about whether there is in fact a weight shift on the backswing or not.

My own take is that inevitably there has to be some shift of some weight to the right during the backswing - after all the whole arms/shoulders/club unit weighs 21 pounds or so and is going behind you, so how can there not be some kind of transfer ? However I experience the slight tilt to the left of the spine during the backswing as using the weight of the body as a counterbalance to that transfer. This has 3 positive consequences : 1) there is no danger of a sway to the right 2 ) my head remains steady and centred and 3 ) I'm already beautifully balanced and loaded on the left side to start the downswing. The downswing and release through the ball then seem to happen on their own , pulling me along with them.

I know what I feel I'm doing, what I'm actually doing and what's really happening are probably 3 quite different things, but that's what it feels like ! If you want to give it a try, just experiment the way I started, with short pitches, and see how it feels.


 
    
Inline
(Login singleplane)
SAGF Members 2004

Counterbalance

July 11 2008, 2:47 PM 

I agree. There is counter balancing going on and a centered balanced feel is the right feel. I liken it to going up the mountain -but not over. If you get to all but to the peak, the downswing is pretty effortless.

 
    
dave
(Login dlovullo)

weight shift

July 11 2008, 4:13 PM 

If you watch the video you will clearly see without a doubt that there is no rearward weight transfer on the backswing. In fact the swing starts with the weight favoring the forward foot and increasing during the forward swing. Yes the arms are turning around but the hips and upper body are headed forward. The shoulder turn is very steep.

The reason you are not seeing the head go forward as in a true reverse pivot is the spine does not stay in the same angle during the swing. You actually have to change your spine angle during the swing to keep the head centered. This swing in its purest form is very complicated.

The key thing to remember is the pros being taught by the stack and tilt instructors do not all do it in its purest form .Charles Wi is closest to the actual model.

Another interesting detail is if you look at the the setup and basic swing it is a hitting pattern as defined by TGM which Plummer and Bennent are trained in as well as its derivitave from Mac O'Grady who really invented it as part of morad.

Dave


 
    
David
(Login davidy48)

Ordering the dvd's

July 15 2008, 3:48 PM 

For anyone interested in ordering the dvd's without all the Medicus crap and tricky pricing, I can recommend Rock Bottom Golf, who got it to me in the Netherlands in 4 days ( including a weekend ). Plus for a Euro of course it's snip - good old Dubya , got something right for once !

 
    
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