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New Moe Norman site developed by Graves Golf Academy

December 12 2008 at 11:58 AM
Scott  (Login scottren71)

Just an FYI, Graves Golf Academy has developed and released a new website as a tribute to Moe. http://www.moenorman.org

The site contains pictures from Moe Norman's scrapbook that Todd was able to copy while in Canada with the blessing of the Norman family. This is the scrapbook started by Moe's mother, then continued by his sisters.

The site will be updated regularly with new Moe pictures, vidoes, etc., so bookmark and enjoy.

Scott

 
    
AuthorReply

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Moe and a 2 iron

December 13 2008, 10:15 AM 

Notice:
Cupped left wrist at top?
Looks like a reverse weight shift, not very slantdicular on backswing?
Close to parallel at the top.
Nice pre impact position!

[linked image]

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Of course....

December 13 2008, 10:55 AM 

Moe was not only the first single planer, he was also the first stack and tilter. wink.gif

Ham

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

I think

December 13 2008, 11:37 AM 

it was talent not technique that made Moe great.

I think that it is interesting that the various articles on the site seem to mention how fast Moe played more often then anything else. There are also several references to Moe being extremely smart, genius in mentioned several times. It is nice to get a look at what writers actually said about Moe at the time back in the day...

Here is another picture:
I wonder how much he got paid for the clothing add?
[linked image]

Regards, Herbert

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

Did Moe have a lot of money?

December 13 2008, 12:33 PM 

I see from the promotional deals and other things
like clinics that Moe seems to have been well off
financially in his younger days.

What about stories about him sleeping in his car
and Titleist giving him 60k a year for the rest of his life?
Was he poor in his later years, thus the Titleist deal?

JC

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Biography

December 13 2008, 12:41 PM 

From a couple of biographies it is clear tha Moe never had a lot of money and not too long before the Titleist 'grant' he was unable to support himself (friends held a fundraiser for him).

Peter

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

One of the articles

December 13 2008, 9:46 PM 

said that Moe was doing really well and had 200 grand plus a couple of Cadillacs... This was during his playing career.

Regards, Herbert

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Moe and Money

December 14 2008, 4:53 AM 

At one point around 7 years ago or so Moe claimed to a bunch of pros to have around $900K+. His goal at that time was to be a millionaire. I think he probably made it.

Ham

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

Ham, when you go out on tour, how long

December 14 2008, 4:47 PM 

do you think it will take you to become
a millionaire or are you one already? happy.gif

Caddies get 10% right?

JC

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

I think it ....

December 15 2008, 10:40 AM 

will probably take at least a few tournaments to reach a million. wink.gif

Currently I am at least a thousandaire. wink.gif

Ham

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

Does anyone know the name or names of the pros

December 14 2008, 4:55 PM 

who told Moe to get his teeth fixed and
get some different clothes and basicially
scared him off the PGA tour?

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to how well Moe
would have done on the PGA tour?

JC

 
    
cd
(Login birdbump)

Frank Beard

December 14 2008, 10:41 PM 

That's about how well he would have done.
Pretty darn well.

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

i know Moe and Hogan both went to Florida in the winter season

December 16 2008, 10:01 AM 

did they ever meet there or play golf together?

JC

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Slantidicular

December 13 2008, 12:37 PM 

This was prior to the the Bertholy 're-connection' that Doug described. Combining these photos with some others you can see Moe's evolution to a 'slantidicular' position at top of swing.

Peter

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: Slantidicular

December 17 2008, 7:30 AM 

To me this more proof of Moe's talent, it looks like he played very high level golf with a somewhat flawed swing.

It is interesting that Moe used a strong lead hand grip when he was young. Progressing from a strong lead hand grip to weaker one seems to be a rather common occurrence.

Anyone who wants to swing like Moe would be wise to check out the Bertholy Method and add the training to their practice routine.

Regards, Herbert

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Interesting picture

December 13 2008, 8:48 PM 

Interesting picture. I have seen a lot of clips of Moe, but I have never seen him address the ball in this position. I have never seen him with a cupped wrist like that either. Interesting.

These pictures are static and appear to be contrived, which Moe (and the magazines) did in order to appear more normal? Almost all the pros of that generation would mislead, including Hogan...could that be the case here?

I would love to see some actual swing sequences of Moe between 19-26.

Have seen three golf mag presentations of Moe over the years, and none of them were accurate.

Too bad more of this isn't available, because he was an odd kind of celebrity in Canada in his younger years. Lot of pictures and film were made of him.

Doubting Thomas on this one.




 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

They are not static

December 14 2008, 12:21 PM 

and that is clear from the blurring of the hands in the 4th shot.

Peter

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Static

December 14 2008, 5:36 PM 

During the time they made these shots, still photography did not have the ability to capture sequential motion, except with strobe photography so most of the shots (parts of the swing) were made individually, and most shots were posser shots (of the positions) over the years that these magazines were published. However, an individual shot could have been made of impact, but it would not, necessarily, be related to the other positions, as it would be independent.

Moe made several of these layouts, and many times he, reportedly, modified his posser positions to not look so odd.

Static or no static is not an issue for me. What is an issue for me is that set-up at address. I have seen him stand like that in posser shots until the 90's, but I have never seen him set-up like that in an actual golf shot in film (moving pictures). Not saying that he didn't stand like that at one time in his career...just trying to figure out when he did and if he did.


 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

You don't know...

December 14 2008, 8:48 PM 

how the pictures were taken or the equipment used. It was possible as early as the 30s to capture motion clearly as is shown in footage of Bobby Jones. The blurring of the hands in the 4th shot is not an opinion or a guess but an observable fact.

Peter

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Do too

December 14 2008, 9:43 PM 

Actually, I do know how the golf magazine shot their photos in the old days:) The issue is not about fast shutter speeds to capture motion; the issue is about sequential sequencing, which was not possible back then, without strobes. Typically, each position in the swing was captured individually (with different shots from the camera), and the backswing pictures were, usually, in static position.

However, this information is immaterial to me. What I am trying to figure out is the address position. I have seen a lot of these static pictures of Moe, and he is standing fairly upright, but I have never seen him address the ball in such a manner, when he played. Secondly, I have never seen that cupped left wrist at the top of the backswing.

Not saying he didn't do that, just trying to watch the evolution of his swing through the years.

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

You are wrong

December 15 2008, 8:44 AM 

Strobes were NOT the only way to get sequenced photos then or 20 years before.

FYI - Praktina FX. Made by Kamera Werkstatten in East Germany in the 1950s. A high-quality SLR with interchangable finders, breech-lock lenses made by East German Zeiss, a spring motor-drive accessory, and a separate optical viewfinder, probably for following fast action as the mirror is not instant-return.

There are others.

The question is not, however, about sequencing but whether the pictures were posed or from a real swing. The blurred motion in photo #4 clearly indicates motion e.g. a real swing.



Peter


    
This message has been edited by sagf_moderator on Dec 15, 2008 8:51 AM


 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Sequential picture with one snap

December 15 2008, 9:59 AM 

Peter, here is a sequential golf photo Bobby Jones http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt1.php?ref=clubmakeronline

Are you saying that with one swing that your Praktina 35mm camera with a spring driven motor could advance the film fast enough to get like five frames shot with one swing? Of course not. It wouldn't even be able to advance film fast enough to get two shots in one swing.

Further, it is quite obvious that the shot wasn't made with a 35 mm film camera.

Nobody is arguing with you about the impact shot, being a real swing. Why do you keep going on about that.


 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Nice but not...

December 15 2008, 1:24 PM 

the only way as this clip (which predates the Moe photos) shows:

sagf_hogan_trail_arm_pivot.gif

Your argument was that These pictures are static and appear to be contrived...

Photo #4 is clearly not 'static'. As to any of the rest you are only guessing and at that guessing that some might be static (i.e. not from a swing) and others not. Quite a leap given that one clearly is not.

Peter

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Moe

December 15 2008, 10:44 AM 

I think that Moe always started with his club directly behind the ball, and then a split second before his backswing he set the club several inches behind the ball on the target line. He always measured to the ball first, then set the club behind and hit. Very quickly of course.

Ham

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Yes

December 15 2008, 11:05 AM 

Ham, I agree with you on that one. The older video I have seen of Moe would show him doing that, but he didn't seem to have the clubhead directly behind the ball...like he would put it about three inches behind the ball, and then 6-9 inchs (or whatever) behind the ball. By the way, this is another one of those little tricks that really helps in understanding what Moe was doing. I, actually, learned of this from Count Yogi people.

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

I never....

December 17 2008, 2:57 AM 

saw Moe start at three inches and then move to 9 inches or so. Whenever I had seen him live he always started from right behind the ball in a "normal" position and then shortly before starting his backswing he moved the club back 9 to 12 inches.

Do you have any pictures, or video of Moe starting three inches behind the ball?

Thanks,

Ham

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Behind the ball

December 17 2008, 8:47 PM 

Ham, even with wedge he seems to get a couple of inches behind the ball, and then back.

I watched a 1980's video and I think he first sets it behind the ball about three inches (probably so he doesn't move the ball), and then he sets the club back farther behind the ball.

Sorry, don't have ability to post pix. However, I, also, checked the 1986 video that Graves Bros. sell, and the same procedure was there.

 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: They are not static

December 15 2008, 1:25 PM 

It looks to me like the backround is changing considerably in the different frames? I would say that indicates that some of the photos could be posed? Or maybe they did like I used to... Take one hight shutter speed photo of many swings and then put them together later.

Regards, Herbert

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Old Moe Clip

December 15 2008, 2:58 PM 

The old Moe clip (the one at the Scigolf site and that Moe carried with him in a 'flip' book for years) also showed considerable camera movement between frames. I don't know if it was a result of assembling frames from different swings or just a lot of caffein for the photographer that morning. However given that one frame is clearly not posed I think either of the cases above are more likely than posed frames mixed with real.

Peter

 
    

(Login ggagga)
SAGF Members 2004

Re: Interesting picture

December 15 2008, 5:02 PM 



    
This message has been edited by ggagga on Dec 19, 2008 2:59 PM


 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Tim, what's your take on this?

December 16 2008, 10:58 AM 

Tim, so that we have a common ground for discussion, let's use your (Graves Bros.) 1986 video of Moe hitting balls for a Canadian driving range exhibition.

In that 1986 video, and, also, in another nice video I saw about 15 years earlier, Moe addressed the ball with a straight line down from the shoulder on the leading side of the body....at address.

Todd doesn't stand like that. He stands more like the picture we are discussing on this forum...he stands more like Moe did in his older days, (old age) more upright, when he started hitting around himself more. However, Todd's body line does fall into that straight line (leading edge side) soon after he starts swinging.

I can see the changes in Moe's swing from the mid-seventies until his death, but what I am trying to figure out is whether or not he had the upright address position in the 1960's and 1950's, as he addressed the ball. So we don't argue about degree of upright, let's just say at what period wasn't there a straight line on the leading side at address?

It's like in his amateur days. I have seen static photos of him at address and he is standing upright in what I call his "poser" look, but I can't tell how he is on the course from the little snips that I have seen over the years.












 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Grip

December 13 2008, 9:44 PM 

Here is a close up of Moe's grip. Looks rather strong in the lead hand a lot like simple swing. He is not making a simple swing though as the he is obviously opening the club head on the back swing.

[linked image]

Regards, Herbert

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

There is somthing else interesting about

December 13 2008, 9:56 PM 

that photo! Do you see it?

Herbert

 
    
Tom
(Login Roverii)

Re: There is somthing else interesting about

December 13 2008, 10:42 PM 


I guess at that time Moe hadn't yet thought of addressing the ball with the clubhead far away. Or maybe the editors would not have used his swing in tne article if he did so.

Tom

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Do you mean...

December 14 2008, 6:01 AM 

the overlapping grip? His grip looks very conventional to me.

Ham

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

No

December 14 2008, 8:39 AM 

I mean something other then the grip though that is a good point.

Regards, Herbert

 
    
Jerry
(Login thinkin2)

Re: No

December 14 2008, 11:36 AM 

His clubhead is right behind the ball.

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Straight line

December 15 2008, 11:01 AM 

Herbert the thing that I noticed, and what I am trying to figure out, is that there is not a straight line from the shoulder down on the leading side at address, and his head isn't over his right knee so much.

As already reported, club is not behind the ball 6 inches.

He stood like that as an amateur too, which seemed like a poser routine. However, I have seen several shots of him playing as an amateur, and he seemed to have that straight line from the leading shoulder down, as he was addressing an actual ball.

I am unsure of this. My game got so much better (easy to swing) when I discovered this address position (straight line shoulder down) that I thought it would go back into his 20 something swing. Don't know though.

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

I think that

December 15 2008, 1:35 PM 

you are a lot like Moe in that you always think that you have discovered something that makes your swing better. Possibly it is not better as it was really good before... You have been posting such discoveries for as long as I care to remember. Hmmm, I remember on the golf web forum you were posting that it was not the wide stance as you once thought it was but it was something else that I don't recall...

I have noticed from watching Moe's clinics on video and from reading the articles that he defintely did this throughout his career. He always thought that he had figured out something new that made him better. LOL, not an unusual trait amongest hacks either. Just human nature I think. Imho the truth is that Moe had a freakish ability to hit the golf ball and he could hit the ball straight with any swing that he choose to use.

Regards, Herbert

 
    
Remington
(Login Berettaii)

Details, details

December 15 2008, 3:39 PM 

Minor misdirections like tennis racket sized grips. Who remembers the details!

This placement of the body, in which the leading side is straight from shoulder down can be tried by anybody. You will have to do this in front of a mirror or have somebody tell you you are in the right position on the range.

Everything just falls right into place. It is quite amazing.

Yes, I consider it a compliment to think like Moe...always thinkin'.

 
    

(Login JOSjr)

Re: Grip

December 14 2008, 9:51 AM 

The clubhead is directly behind the ball--not spaced back 6-9 inches.

Also, this looks EXACTLY like Todd Graves at set up. I have many pictures of Todd and the similarity is amazing.

John Spain

 
    

(Login Tgraves)
SAGF Members 2006

Be Careful

December 21 2008, 2:33 PM 

These pictures are awful. They are not representative of Moe's actual swing but a representation of the points he is trying to make for the article.

Be very careful when you look at these (and other) pictures unless they are actually swing footage.

Notice on frame 2 that Moe's right hand is off the club. He is clearly demonstrating. Same with PIc 3 . The cupped wrist at the top is not demonstrated in the actual golf swing below. The sequence photos 4 shows a ball positon further back than pic 1 at address. It is not the same sequence. Also, down the line views are better for analysis as far as your term "standicular" Here is a sequence Down the line.

I wouldn't say he was standicular. He is clearly standing the distance and with the spine tilt I recommend. This swing is a younger version of the swing I always saw with Moe.

[linked image]
[linked image]

In all of these phots, Moe is overlapping.


Todd

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

'Slantidicular"

December 21 2008, 3:40 PM 

The back should be sloping away from the target with no sway in the hips to the right. If a straight line were drawn between the left hip and the left shoulder/arm socker it would be slanting to the golfer's right. This "slantidicular" appearance is critical for creating and storing power.

'Golf Swing Construction 101'

You said:

Also, down the line views are better for analysis as far as your term "standicular"

Given Bertholy's definition of "slantidicular" you need to see the golfer perpendicular to the target line (not down the line or parallel to the target line) to see that a line from the golfers left hip to left shoulder is slanted away from the target.

Peter


    
This message has been edited by sagf_moderator on Dec 21, 2008 3:42 PM


 
    

(Login ggagga)
SAGF Members 2004

Re: New Moe Norman site developed by Graves Golf Academy

December 15 2008, 4:58 PM 

Looks like we gave you all a lot to talk about...

Amazing to me how much debate can come from "still" pictures....

Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com

FYI - If you want some answers might want to talk to the guy who spend over 12 years with the man and played and practiced with him during those years........ just a thought.......
- and BTW - has been entrusted by the family and estate to carry on his legacy.....

 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

More data

December 17 2008, 7:23 AM 

To me the fact that a talented guy like Todd spent all that time with Moe and understands the swing really well yet could not become a top tournament pro is more proof of Moe's incredible talent.

Regards, Herbert

 
    
Tim Graves
(Login ggagga)
SAGF Members 2004

Short game, short game, short game

December 17 2008, 11:52 AM 

Sounds like you know very little about tournament golf at the pro level (now) to respond with that statement.

Golf (on the pro level) is now grip it and rip it and wedge it close and have and EXCEPTIONAL short game.

When Todd played on the Canadian Tour, Asian Tour, Hooter's Tour, etc.. he always was one of the leaders in fairways hit and greens in reg. But that doesn't relate to winning.. it is number of putts and what you do around the green.

Even when Moe was asked how he would make the game tougher - he stated - "I could make a 5,400 yard course a major championship course". "25 yard wide fairways and then OB".

For those who hit the ball 300+ yards every time off the tee, how important is the mid game?

For the average golfer who it lucky to hit it 250 to 260 yards off the tee - the mid game is more and more important.

Unless you are the best in the world at the short game, and/or have exceptional distance off the tee, you will not make it on tour. I can name 50 very close friends of mine who have been on tour for years, on and off, on and off, and you wouldn't even know their names... or maybe heard of them once or twice... reason - they have average short games or mid to average length off the tee.

But, that is NOT the issue for the typical/average golfer. To compare him/her to the tour players is crazy and to be honest - stupid.

The average golfer hits his/her drive 250 yards (at the most) - he/she puts a lot more "stress" on their mid game - they do not have hours and hours to practice every day, they do not have a 20 something body - 70% have some type of ailment that affects their golf game (bad back), etc.. they have played for quite a few years and are typically frustrated when they play a round of golf - thinking they should play better.

This is the where MOE'S SWING does amazing things. With the consistency and ease of his swing - and SIMPLICITY of the swing.

Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com


 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Curious

December 17 2008, 1:36 PM 

I guess that I pushed a hot button there. Sometimes things that get posted by me or anyone else get taken a bit differently then they are meant. For instance your posts come across a bit on the arrogant side to me though you may have good reason for that.happy.gif LOl, I never met a golf pro of any kind who did not think that he or she knew it all and conversely figured that a hack like me did not know anything so you are in good company!

Hmmm, so what is your point?
Are you saying that Moe was not incredibly talented?
Are you saying the Todd is just as good a ball striker as Moe was?
If so do big name pros drop everything to watch Todd hit balls?
Are you saying that the game has changed to bomb it and pitch it to such an extent that Todd would have kicked ass in the tournaments that Moe played in during his prime?

Regards, Herbert

 
    

(Login ggagga)
SAGF Members 2004

Re: Curious

December 18 2008, 11:36 AM 

Hmmm, so what is your point?
Are you saying that Moe was not incredibly talented?

You're kidding me right........ I've spent close to 15 years now studying and teaching a individual's method...


Are you saying the Todd is just as good a ball striker as Moe was?

I can't say as I really never saw Moe in his prime - but Moe said Todd was / is. I know when Moe gave Todd his club at the last demo we held with Moe and Todd and Moe told Todd "You hit balls, they would rather see you and you do it as well as I ever did."

If so do big name pros drop everything to watch Todd hit balls?

Do you consider Scott Verplank, Curtis Strange, Fred Couples big name pros..... all those who have sat next to me watching Todd hit balls.... many I don't know about as I wasn't there....
but have heard of many other big names...

When is the last time you saw Todd hit balls in a demo???

Are you saying that the game has changed to bomb it and pitch it to such an extent that Todd would have kicked ass in the tournaments that Moe played in during his prime?

Possibly... what most people don't give credit to Moe was his short game - it was great when he was playing. When we were at his home course (Rockway) in Canada holding the Moe Memorial last year, I was told from a couple of gentlemen who grew up with Moe that he practiced his short game a lot when he was playing in his prime. And FYI - you don't shoot 59s or set course records without an INCREDIBLE short game. Make 12 birdies in 18 holes - you tell me what type of short game you would have to have????? Even if you hit all the greens in reg - I dare anyone to make that many putts....

And yes, the game has changed DRAMATICALLY - just watch the PGA tournaments.... I write for PGA.com and that is one of the topics we discuss often. That is why when you see tournaments like the John Deere Classic held on courses that are considered short but VERY TIGHT compared to today's standards, player's like Corey Pavin win.... and typical courses they play that are LONG and fairly open, players like Tiger, Vijah and the other "bombers" win.

Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com
www.swinglikemoe.com
www.moenorman.ORG

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Tim.....Pictures????

December 18 2008, 1:08 PM 

Hi Tim,

You posted "Do you consider Scott Verplank, Curtis Strange, Fred Couples big name pros..... all those who have sat next to me watching Todd hit balls.... many I don't know about as I wasn't there....
but have heard of many other big names..."


Do you have any pictures of these big name pros watching Todd hit golf balls? I would figure that if those guys were around there would certainly be many pictures taken of them watching Todd, as there were for Moe. Any pictures of the other BIG names??

Many thanks,

Ham

 
    
Tim Graves
(Login ggagga)
SAGF Members 2004

Re: Tim.....Pictures????

December 18 2008, 2:36 PM 

No pictures that I know of...

Verplank was when Todd was playing in the Oklahoma Open.
Strange was when Todd was hitting balls at Hank Haney's place in Plano.
Couples was when Todd was practicing with Shawn Humphries at Glen Eagles in Dallas.
Campbell was when he was sitting next to me in a Hooter's Tour event watching Todd hole a 150 yard 7 iron on the last hole.
Johnson was the 100s of times we practiced together on the Hooter's tour.
Lyle was when he took him to the Faldo institute to practice with Moe and himself.

And on and on....

You guys are funny.... what does it matter?

The issue is who can teach Moe's method and does it help golfers?

The fact that Todd is the best example of Moe's swing is a benefit and wonderful, but it comes down to who can teach the method so more can enjoy the game....

P.S. FYI - there is a multi million dollar (full screen) movie being produced about Moe and his life in the upcoming months - we have been contacted to train the actor(s) to swing like Moe and Todd is the "swing double" for Moe in the movie.... but again - non of this matters if we can't help golfers swing like Moe and enjoy the game more.........

Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com
www.swinglikemoe.com
www.moenorman.ORG

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

I know....

December 19 2008, 7:25 AM 

that you are trying to sell people here on your method, and that is fine. This is the SA forum after all, but you glorify Todd saying he could hit the ball as well as Moe, and that he is the best, yet he never played close to as well as Moe did. I have seen Todd hit balls in the past many times, and he was nowhere as good as Moe was even when Moe was in his late 60s. Todd's swing was also not the same as Moe's. Todd had the club always closed at the top of the swing, and on the downswing when compared to Moe's swing. This is why Todd sometimes did not hit the ball straight, and Moe always hit the ball straight. Moe was always neutral, and Todd was always closed.

What do you think makes what Todd teaches better then what IMA, BGG, or NG teaches. Please don't post that it is because Moe said that Todd swings just like him. That is not proof of anything. What do you guys do differently from the others? That is what you need to present if you want to win over some new customers from here. I mean that is obviously why you are here. So just present your case for open debate. What is it that sets you apart from Scott Hazeldine, Ken Martin, and Tom Sanders? Do you think they don't know Moe's swing?

Regards,

Ham

 
    
Tim Graves
(Login ggagga)
SAGF Members 2004

Re: I know....

December 19 2008, 9:21 AM 

This is why we don't post on this forum (very often) - and, yes this will be the last time for me too....

As you gentleman like to say - show me pictures of Todd being closed. I have known Todd my entire life, and even before he was swinging like Moe - he was NEVER closed at the top of his swing... but maybe you are more of an expert than I am...

How many times did you see Moe demo? Again - would love to see pictures and video.

What makes Todd different - spending over 12 years with Moe - many times weeks/months at a time practicing with Moe, talking with Moe, spending hours upon hours just "hanging out" with Moe.... learning more than the golf swing - but what makes Moe work... why he was so good, etc.. Having 1000s of hours of Moe's swing to study, research, writing teaching material based on that, having Moe follow him on the Canadian Tour - having a company hire Todd to perform demos with Moe, having a company sponsor him full time to play and demo the model, having Golf Digest feature him to demo Moe's model, having a Warner Bros Production Movie hire him to play the roll (swing) and teach the actors the swing, being featured on golf channel numerous times demonstrating the model with and without Moe, being a teaching editor for numerous golf publications highlighting the single axis swing and Moe, and finally - having Moe HIMSELF say Todd was the only one who could teach his swing. And BTW - if you want to hear that on tape, more than happy to supply that too you.

You can say Todd didn't/doesn't swing like Moe (that is your opinion - only an opinion) - I'll take Moe's word for it....

BTW - my question to you would be why do you even compare those to Todd - why is Ken Martin no longer teaching Moe's swing? I don't have any problem with other's teaching other methods, but don't take the model and use it in comparision when they are not teaching using that model.

BTW - I spent 3 days with Ken last year at the PGA show playing in the Pro/Pro events - Ken is a great guy, a fantastic teacher, but out of his mouth - he said he DOES NOT teach Moe's swing - it teaches a version of the single axis swing.

Again - if you are more of an expert - I assume that is your opinion.

This will be my last post on this forum.... we don't believe in matching one method vs. another - whatever method you are using that is GREAT - just don't mix the models - that doesn't work.

If you notice - I didn't start this post - you guys did.... enjoy Moenorman.ORG - if you have better pictures and the photo album of Moe's life - please let us know, we'd love to see them.... oh ya, Moe's family entrusted TODD in that - and he thought the world would enjoy seeing them.....

Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com

 
    
jjgolf
(Login jiujitsugolf)
SAGF Members 2004

Tim Please don't go

December 19 2008, 11:13 AM 

Tim I for one enjoy reading yours and Duug Ferrerai(sp) post one personal experience with Moe. It must be frustrating at times when you feel like you are being attacked. I hope that you continue to post here even if it is occasionally to shed some lite on the subject from yours and Todd's personal experience with Moe Norman.

BTW: I would love to hear if Moe and Todd or you ever discussed the single length irons concept?

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Why don't you go....

December 19 2008, 11:20 AM 

to www.swinglikemoe.com

They have a good forum there where you can read hundreds of messages from them.

Ham

 
    
jjgolf
(Login jiujitsugolf)
SAGF Members 2004

Why do I have to go?

December 19 2008, 2:44 PM 

Why do I have to go? I like being here and there, I also look at other web pages to, don't tell anyone.

I like some of the debates that come up on here and could do without some of the bs, so I don't get involved. I like it when people like the Graves Bros. and Tom Sanders post on here, as well as a host of other top instructors that teach different things.

It reminds me of martial arts there is some differences and a lot of the same. Unlike some I relish the differences and like to know what makes a differences between one or the other. I don't feel the need to verify what is better for someone else only what has worked for me.

Also I am a man I don't hide behind a keyboard and act like I am something I am not nor do I insult people. I enjoy discussions, that means intellectual debates done with a little class. I think everyone learns and understands more that way.

So no I do not want other people who have a wealth of information about Moe Norman from posting here, that would lead to others who have interesting stories, thoughts and ideas from doing to the same. then I would be stuck listening to the same bs over and over.

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

I think...

December 19 2008, 2:56 PM 

Ham's point was that Tim seems to be more comfortable posting in his own environment and given that it's better to have discussions with him there.

History has shown that this forum is often not comfortable for participants with commercial golf interests.

Peter

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

News Flash

December 19 2008, 5:59 PM 

You can go there, and also still visit here. I know that may be hard to believe, but it really is true. You can visit any and all websites that you want.

I wish you much fun!!!

Ham

 
    
jjgolf
(Login jiujitsugolf)
SAGF Members 2004

What?

December 20 2008, 11:02 AM 

Ham,

I already said that I already do visit the the Graves site as well as many others. You are a funny person, I like the way you do and say things to get the pot stirred, definitely keeps things moving. I think the story of the Tea Master is something you should think about. Basically you can not drink(learn) from another if you do not empty your cup(open your mind).

Peter,

i see your point, however since most people on here have either tried multiple swing systems or teachers and they were open enough to buy the material at one time or another or read about it. I would think that they would be happy to have a teacher on here to bounce questions off, instead of challenging them and running them off. I have several jiu-jitsu instructors and each gives me something different that adds to my overall game. For each position or aspect of the game, much like putting, chipping, short pitches, full swing ect I ask different instructors. many are trying to teach the same thing with just a different focus point. My Detroit coach tells e to relax, one of my other coaches in LA tells me to always have an attack form every position. I enjoy learning I guess and get tired of the biggest d*ck contest that come up.

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

JJgolf

December 20 2008, 11:23 AM 

You are misreading what I have written. My intent was not to stir your pot. I informed you of the site of Graves thinking that you must not know about it. From your response to me it sounded as if you thought you were told to leave this forum. That is far from the truth.

What good is discussion if you cannot ask questions? Especially when the instructor comes here only in an attempt to try and snag some new customers with their propaganda. Tim would not answer a simple question about what they teach that is different from the other SA methods. Instead he goes on and on about how Todd is the greatest..bla...bla...bla.. That is just a dig at others who have spent and equal amount of time and energy learning Moe's move, and does not answer the question about what Graves does differently.

It all sound like marketing fluff to me. That may be all that it is. I do like Todd very much, he comes across as very honest to me. Tim tries to spin everything and actually turns everybody off in the process. Todd should be the PR person, but he obviously has no desire to be that person.

If these people can't stand a few simple questions then they are of little use here. IMO

As far as learning goes. I have studied and learned from a great many of the greatest teachers in the game. This began around 35 years ago for me. I am still learning, and don't expect to ever stop learning. There are so many parts to the golf equation that need to be studied to become a master at the game that it boggles the mind. Just the tip of the iceberg is Full swing technique, Driver technique, long irons, mid irons, short irons, pitching distance control, trajectory control, fades, draws, hooks, slices, (sidehill, downhill, uphill lies) Greenside bunker shots, fairway bunker shots, recovery shots, chipping, and putting. All require one to learn different swings. Then of course comes equipment that fits, fitness, diet, course management, mental game, etc..... The list goes on and on and......

Have a nice day!

Ham

Ham

 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Variety & Instructors

December 20 2008, 12:54 PM 

Instructors of different varieties of golf are very welcome here however history has shown that many are not prepared to deal with the challenges that are a normal part of discussion here. Most have their own sites where such challenges are rare and they seem to prefer those environments.

One such instructor threatened legal action against this group if information on their variation was posted here. Another threatened to have the host shut this group down because they felt the challenges were not 'civil' (in my opinion they were). This group was started because of the inability of one of those other sites to cope with discussion of alternate styles.

A while back a participant in this forum posted some physics based information at another site that was supposed to be 'scientific' golf and the personal attacks and 'war' that resulted (his science did not agree with the style's 'science') was clearly not fertile for the type of cross-pollination that you describe with jiu-jitsu.

So unfortunately (or fortunately) the various opinions you will get here are more likely to be from those with no commercial interest in the systems vs the 'masters' of the systems.

Peter

 
    
jjgolf
(Login jiujitsugolf)
SAGF Members 2004

Nice!

December 20 2008, 5:01 PM 

Good posts!

peter I can understand your point and I am very glad for you and this site I have learned a lot. I just get a little frustrated at times and I know it is hard to read intent into people's posts. This is what drives me nuts in martial arts as well. In boxing no one expects Custamto(sp) Mike Tyson's old boxing coach to beat him but in other areas like golf and martial arts people seem to think that one must have world class playing abilities in order to teach. Truthfully I have learned some of the best parts of my game from unknowns in jiu-jitsu.

Oh well i hope everyone has a great weekend, I cranked my back all out of whack last night in jiu-jitsu and can't not turn my head or move my arm, Iii just got back from the dr.and need to go take a nap with my pain meds.

C YA

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

I have posted many...

December 19 2008, 11:17 AM 

pictures and videos here from Moe demos. I attended over 10 demos of Moe's and filmed most of them. I even have Todd on film closed. Maybe you should ask Todd if he had problems being closed. I have discussed this with Todd in the past, so I am sure if you bother to ask him that he would tell you he had that problem. If he got rid of it then that is super.



I have no doubt that Todd is a fantastic teacher. I just do not think you do much for your cause posting here that Moe, or someone else said Todd is the same as Moe. He is not!!



Tell us what you have that is different to offer then the other methods who also teach swings based on Moe. NOBODY can swing "exactly" like Moe, that is Ken's theory, and I believe it. Nobody does, not even Todd. The fundamentals of what Moe did are taught by IMA, BGG, NG, and Todd. What does Todd teach that is different then the others. Why should somebody choose to go to Todd over the others? What does he have to offer that is better then the others? Telling me that Moe said something about Todd, or that Moe followed Todd somewhere, does not make me want to go learn from him.



I believe that Ken is the best SA teacher out there far and away, he has also proven himself as a good player. What he teaches may be the best for the highest percentage of golfers who wish to improve. What he teaches is based on Moe's swing.



Has Todd taught anybody who now swings just like Moe? Maybe he has and they are playing on tour?? If not then I have to wonder why not.



Thanks for your time.



Ham


    
This message has been edited by hammeredit on Dec 19, 2008 11:18 AM


 
    

(Login Tgraves)
SAGF Members 2006

Info...

December 19 2008, 1:13 PM 

Here is what I know.

I love teaching and knowing that the company Tim and I have worked so hard to build helps people. This is what I enjoy doing and where I spend my time. I find myself involved with running a company, consulting for movie productions, producing instruction and I find a little time for myself. It is all an evolution. What you see today will be different tomorrow. The goal is to make it better tomorrow. Progress not perfection.

I also know that Moe evolved. My understanding of Moe is much greater now than it has ever been. Moe had a closed face and hooked the ball. I have done the same. The Moe we all learned to love was different from the younger Moe. The articles on Moenorman.org verify that. These simply scratch the surface of who Moe really was. It is such a great learning process. Everyone evolves.

I have certainly evolved and grown and improved from the time I met Moe until know. I continue to learn each year from my students and from my research and from my intuition.

I am passionate about Moe and his golf swing and with the blessing of Moe and his family, I plan to carry his legacy forward so more people, like you, will know and benefit from his unique ability and personality. I think learning from Moe is one of the most important things any golfer who desires to become better, can do.

I will never try to convince anyone of anything. I actually resist the idea that I must "sell" anything. My goal is to pursue my passions and evolve - to better myself and those things I am passionate about. Whoever I cross in my pursuit of my passion is a welcomed friend.


Playing on Tour

As far as professional golf is concerned, I can't tell you why I didn't have much success on tour. I know that you can't work on your swing and play professional golf. There was a few important years when I was stuck in between changing my swing and trying to play. You can't be stuck in between if you want to play great golf. You better know how to swing and then play to shoot your lowest scores - there is a lesson here.

To be honest, I really didn't like professional golf, competition and traveling. I mostly hated the ego related to all of it - people trying to be better than everyone else - that notion always bothers me. I played golf for the love of the game and the ego / trying to prove myself, made me stop loving it.

I admit, I played well at times and others I did not. Now, I really don't even like to play. In this regard, I am much different than Moe, I have other things that take my time and I enjoy. Playing Golf, at this point in my life is not one of them, mostly because to be good you must work at it and it takes time to train. I no longer practice for 8 hours each day and if I do not practice, I do not perform well. I absolutely hate reading putts when they have no meaning and I can't stand hitting good shots and missing putts. It is not fun for me.

The main reason I stopped playing is that I lost the most important thing needed to play well - the desire to be better than anyone else. I lost my need to prove myself. I can't really explain it any other way than that. It doesn't mean I don't love golf, I means that I look at it differently now, like how you see your wife after being married for 30 years.

I also hate the notion that I need to continue proving myself. I detest the ego part of all of it. It sometimes creeps into my business even now.

I avoid all temptation to fall into the "Who did you teach" or "Are you better than" trap. I just put my information and know-how out there. Take it if you like, leave it if you don't. I really do not care either way.

All I know is that Tim and I will continue to build a company that evolves to help people Know Moe and a better and more enjoyable way to play golf. We will continue to build Moenorman.org, Swingikemoe.com, Knowmoe.com and other sites to spread this information. As far as Moenorman.org is concerned, the site is far from complete. We will have hundreds if not thousands of articles and pictures of Moe as we continue to update and build the site. Please be advised that the information on the site is Copyrighten.

Moenorman.org is a website that Tim and I built to commemorate and honor Moe Norman. We will continue to add articles with the blessing of Moe's family. The goal of Moenorman.org is to have a place where anyone can go to learn about Moe Norman. The site is intended to be educational and inspirational. It is a resource for Moe Norman fans and a place to read great articles about Moe's trials, tribulations and accomplishments.


If any of you, who have unpublished Moe Norman information, would like to place that information in Moenorman.org for others to see, I will see to it that it is protected for you. Please let me know if you have any pictures or videos of Moe you would like to share with the Moenorman.org community.

Thanks.

Merry Christmas.

Todd Graves

 
    
Ham
(Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

Thank you!!

December 19 2008, 6:04 PM 

Thanks for your honest answer. It is a breath of fresh air.

Best of luck to you!!

Ham

 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Thanks Todd

December 20 2008, 12:01 PM 

It is good to hear that you have found a fulfilling and joyful life teaching the game! I hope that at some point in the future you are able to get out and enjoy knocking the ball around the course with your buddies.

Thanks for a great post and best wishes for continued success!

Best Regards, Herbert

 
    

(Login Chazman)
SAGF Members 2000

WOW !

December 20 2008, 7:43 PM 

After reading your post, all I have to say is this; You Sir, are a class act!

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

WOW!! Mr Chazman, what do you

December 21 2008, 12:42 PM 

have to say after
reading some of my posts? happy.gif

JC

 
    

(Login Chazman)
SAGF Members 2000

You are a class act also, and a very generous person.

December 21 2008, 3:45 PM 

How does that sound?

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

I bought the single plane package with video tapes

December 20 2008, 12:29 PM 

that was hosted by Bob Rossberg in the 90's
and it included a book with little Moe showing
the swing in detail.

Is that book still a good refrence or has Todd
changed or refined that information in what
he teaches today?

JC

 
    

(Login Tgraves)
SAGF Members 2006

Single Plane Package - Natural Golf

December 20 2008, 4:10 PM 

I would say that the information is dated. I have refined and changed many things. Here are a few things that I have changed regarding NG instruction.

Moe is the Model for my instruction - everything else is idiosyncratic to his perfect Single Plane Mechanics.

I think an overlapping grip (the grip Moe used in his youth) is a better hand position for producing speed and working the correct hand action in the golf swing.

I now teach Moe's address position as the foundation to his perfect club movement. We also have new drills such as the PVC drill and other drills that help you learn this action.

One specific movement that I would never teach is the lateral hip slide. This is a dynamic movement due to stabilization of arm movement, not a conscious learned and trainable movement. Therefore, when people try to learn it (consciously) it becomes problematic.

Like I have said many times, things evolve. It has been over 10 years since that information was produced.

Mostly, I have learned much from the thousands of students I have taught. They show up with unique problems, and we solve them with Moe Norman's Single Plane mechanics. This is the fun part for me and keeps my life interesting.

Best of luck.

Todd Graves


 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

Thanks for the response Todd, when you say you

December 20 2008, 5:42 PM 

teach Moes address position, do you have your students
stand as far away from the ball as Moe did?
It feels so ackward and i feel like i am going
to miss the ball completly. happy.gif

JC

 
    

(Login Tgraves)
SAGF Members 2006

Good question

December 20 2008, 11:52 PM 

Moe looked like he stood a long way from the ball BUT when I asked him about his swing he always...I REPEAT ALWAYS said that he swings the club underneath himself..like a pendulum.

These two things contradict. So I investigated further - this is where my research comes in.

To achieve efficiency (I usually use the word biomechanical pefection) you must correctly align the spine and the shaft. This requires proper spine tilt at address. You an not achieve proper spine tilt at address with the knees over flexed, they must be straight. YOu must bend from the waist to create the proper spine tilt. When you do this correctly the arms align correctly with the club and the club aligns with the spine creating the feeling Moe had of "underneath".

You CAN NOT achieve this with clubs that are too Upright and too long because it causes you to mis-align the arms and clubshaft to accommodate the golf club. You should NEVER accommodate the golf club...NEVER. - this is most likely why you do not achieve the proper distance from the ball.

1) You are standing with your knees too flexed
2) You are not bending correctly from the waist
3) Your clubs are tool long and too upright.


Todd



 
    

(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Point

December 18 2008, 3:00 PM 

Let's look at what Herbert said:

To me the fact that a talented guy like Todd spent all that time with Moe and understands the swing really well yet could not become a top tournament pro is more proof of Moe's incredible talent

Breaking it down he said:

o Todd is a talented guy
o Todd understands Moe's swing really well
o Todd could not become a top tournament pro (despite the first two points)
o The previous point is a proof of Moe's incredible talent (implication being that Moe was a top tournament pro and the source was more than just the swing)

While some might argue the last point the first 3 seem to be fairly straight forward.

Peter

 
    

Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: Curious

December 18 2008, 9:22 PM 

Vijay won the John Deere in 2003.wink.gif

Moe was a legend and I don't think that Todd will ever attain that status. To me Todd is just another guy who could not make on tour and is making a living teaching which is great! Actually I think that you are good guys and I wish you all of the success in the world from the bottom of my heart. Also, I would like to say that I have enjoyed the scrap book section on your web site a great deal. Thanks for that!

I think that of the SA methods IMA, BGG and Graves are all excellent. I don't think that any one of them is better then the others though each one might be better for certain individuals. I happen to be pursuing IMA at the moment and I am happy with the training and the method.

Of course when and if I get wacked from my job again because of the 'Macro Economic Climate' maybe you can hire me to work for Graves Golf Academy? I have been a club maker for years and love to teach! Aside from writing software I also have a lot of experience in all types of mechanics from building professional assembly machines to rebuilding and repairing stuff from auto engines to washing machines. Also I have done a fair amount of mechanical design along with a lot of construction projects for my house both inside and outside. LOL what do you think???

Regards, Herbert

 
    

(Login golfballhunter)

Herbert ,do you

December 19 2008, 1:24 PM 

do windows- the glass kind? happy.gif

 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

You betcha! nt

December 20 2008, 12:02 PM 

happy.gif

 
    
Scott
(Login scottren71)

Re: New Moe Norman site developed by Graves Golf Academy

December 20 2008, 2:19 PM 

Wow.

I simply post the address of a new website that the Graves Golf Academy has built and it's now turned into a thread about how Tim is arrogant and Todd is a hack that couldn't make it on tour.

Best of luck to each and all with your golf games, may they bring you joy and peace.

Enjoy www.moenorman.org . We will continue to build it to honor Moe and for that reason only. It, like each and every one of our golf swings and game, is a work in progress, and it will evolve as time passes.

Best wishes for a joyful Holiday Season.

Scott


 
    


(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: New Moe Norman site developed by Graves Golf Academy

December 20 2008, 3:22 PM 

Scott,

This is an open forum and we post what we think. LOL, maybe the best solution would be to all get together and have a fist fight! Then we could argue about boxing technique! Those who still had teeth anyway

Seriously though I think that if you re-read the posts with a truly open mind you might find that we are not quite as mean spirited as you think. I think that most of us who write here want conversation of some sort and maybe things like making light of our discussion and saying that we should go ask Todd dont sit real well. I guess that I am saying that perhaps it would be better to keep quite or join in full force and set us straight. At any rate I did not say that Tim was arrogant I said that his post come across to me as a little on the arrogant side. I also mentioned that he might well have good reason for that.

I can understand that teaching an SA swing is going to put you at odds with a large part of the golfing community and possibly contribute to a bit of a feisty nature. Also, I can see where getting challenged on an SA forum might be like going to a church of different denomination and arguing over predestination and such. Not very fulfilling?

At any rate I meant no disrespect to Todd or Tim...

Regards Herbert

 
    
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