Posted some new videos today on both youtube, and magnify.net.
Magnify.net has much higher quality videos. If you click on the little box in just under the video all the way on the right side you can watch full screen in very high quality. You can view videos there at http://golfinfo.magnify.net/
Here is the improved swing from today. I cut down on the head movement and my ball striking improved immediately to what it was over the summer. I think that in trying to increase my swing speed I started moving my head too much. After clicking on the video click the little box below to the right to view in full screen.
The single plane swings and shots all were very well struck and straight. It is for some reason very easy for me to switch back and forth between the two setups. Conventional is more comfortable for me though. Clubhead speed is about the same.
Ham, excellent video. Wow. I remember the first picture posted on the single axis forum by Grant, and we were all amazed!!...about 1996 or 97?
You have a wonderful single axis golf swing, along the lines that NG might teach (currently). You might try a couple of things that worked for me, and see what you think about them. I think these changes could, possibly, make your swing more comfortable (as comfortable as your conventional swing), and, deadly, accurate.
Your set-up with the leading arm is nice (takes you awhile to get there!!) but try to stand in such a manner that there is a stright line from your leading shoulder down. Moe varied his stance widthin his playing days. So, if your feet are closer together you will be standing more upright, but there will STILL be that straight line from the leading shoulder down....and that line is part of why the swing works.
Most people who stand like you do at address cannot stump the right leg and have it leaning forward (Scott H. couldn't do this at first, and he weighted OVER the right..trailing..leg.) In order to make it happen your way, i.e., stand like you do and still stump right leg forward, you move near a stack and tilt move...towards that kind of move. If you set-up, properly, you won't do that. This isn't as easy as it sounds, and you have to practice in the mirror a bit, and change your stance width, when you do. (As I remember from your video you would have to have your left leg more forward...wider stance...in order to get that straight line).
As Moe got older he would sometimes stand a little straighter and even jut his hip out a bit (he started to swing more AROUND himself), but, even then, as soon as he starts to swing that straight line is there. Same with Todd Graves...as soon as he starts to swing that straight line is right there. HOWEVER, everybody should START with that straight line, because the move is so INTEGRAL to the success of the swing.
There are three straight lines. Leading left shoulder down is straight, left arm is straight in-line to shaft, and shaft is in line with right arm at impact.
I am fortunate to be living in a place where I meet a lot of old golf pros who played with Moe, and here is another one of what I consider to be a secret.
I was taken by NG when it first came out in 1995. Two years later, I turned to the Journeyman tape, and tried to learn Moe's swing from this tape...I should have gone back another 10-15 years, before he modified his swing to look more "conventional".
What I could never figure out is that ease of turning the upper body full to the target, and this conflicted with Jack K who wanted to face the ball THROUGH impact, to such an extent that he wouldn't bend the left arm at all...see Todd Graves in 1995 Golf Digest article to see this move. Scott H., the new NG and Tom Sanders all pretty much followed the lead on this idea of Jack's, with the stay facing routine. This idea, requires a supple left leg...Scott H. used to say have a soft calf muscle on the leading leg.
I first learned about Moe modifying his swing to look more conventional from one of the senior editor's at Golf Digest. Primarily, he stated that Moe, in his younger days, didn't come out of all his shots....stayed in the hit position.
What I am saying here Ham is to allow the left leg to bend, but give the leading leg RESISTANCE, and this is what causes that upper body to come around so nicely from wedge to driver, after impact.
The left leg resistance allows the club to pass the body faster, and you will find that on some shots you won't bother to come up out of it...in other words you can vary the amount of resistance...you can get a feeling like you are hitting the ball from the middle of your stance...little bit like the feeling of Rotor Golf hitting into that resisted left leg, if you resist it a lot.
You will find yourself hitting your fairway woods with a lot of resistance, long and dead straight. Again, I want to emphasize that you can vary this resistance at will to suit the shot. This is a major difference between the swing developers and Moe.
If a person has ever had any single axis experience, and you learn just these two things, you will become a remarkable ball striker.
Thanks for your comments. I guess you have no idea what my experience has been with the Moe swing. I have been involved with learning the swing since 1995 when I was first exposed to it. It took me a while to figure out that the swing developers had it all wrong, or at least mostly wrong. What they said to do was not close to what Moe actually did.
I tried every variation possible, only to find out that they did not know what they were talking about. I know them all personally, as I also knew Moe. I have many hours of video shot of Moe from various clinics he performed. I have seen video of Moe's swing also from his younger days as well. Everybody that has done and taught the Moe swing has an opinion as to how it should be taught, what works and what doesn't. I only taught it for around 8 years to hundreds of students. I learned a lot about what works and what doesn't work because of that experience.
I competed in many Professional events setup like Moe. Even managed to win one. Since then I switched back to conventional as it is more comfortable to me, and I notice no difference in my shotmaking ability. With the videos I posted I hoped to show that there is very little difference between the two swings. The club moves almost exactly the same as does my body, and even the results are very similar. I think with conventional I get a bit better of a ball flight as I can get my hands a bit more ahead at impact due to standing a bit nearer.
The way my golf club moves through the swing is very similar to how Moe's moved in every video I ever saw of him. To me it is not about how Moe's legs moved, or what his body did, or where he started with the club. It is about how his club moved throughout the swing. This club movement is also very similar to how the best pros today move the club.
I think that the Stack and tilt idea works very well for both Moe's swing, and conventional golf.
It is my opinion that many of the movements you are looking at in Moe's swing are his body's reactions needed by him to keep him on balance throughout his swing and enabled him to make great contact time after time. As he setup so far away he had to hit into a bent left leg and move down into impact in order to be able to hit the ball with the hands ahead at impact. Setup a little closer and you do not need to make that move. I find it more repeatable to hit into a straighter left leg. Straight is easy to repeat, bent is always different. You cannot bend the exact same amount every time. Of course Moe hit millions of golf balls learning his move. Most do not have the time or desire to hit that many.
The point about not turning, or facing the ball at impact was IMO the worst advice giving for those wanting to do the Moe swing. Moe never did this in any film I ever saw. His hips were always open at impact. In limiting this action I even managed to injure myself. The forward speed of the golf club needs to go somewhere after impact. If your body does not turn to accept that speed and stop it you need to then need to find another way. IMO there is not another easy way to do that and be a good ballstriker. The hips must be turned towards the target at impact. I have never seen a good balstriker who did not have the hips turned, and turn through to face the target at the end of the swing.
If you have a video of Moe hitting a shot where he never came out of the hitting position as you posted then please post here for all to see.
Also please post a video of yourself hitting balls for people here to see what it is that you do. Time to release that fear of exhibiting your swing and go for it. Just post it. Then maybe people will be able to understand what you are saying better. What better stage then the Internet to exhibit???
Please let me know if anything here is not clear to you.
Ham: This is a great looking swing that Moe is executing, but one has to watch out, as this sequence was made, during one of the last swing developer influences...kind of a model for the NG swing (modern). Todd or Tim could put this video in perspective.
I got six emails asking what the straight line from the leading shoulder meant. Sorry about that. It means that when Moe addressed the ball, if you drew a straight line from the ankle up to the shoulder that it would be in-line at address.
and he was not influenced in this film by any of your so called "swing developers". Moe in this video had read a book by Manuel de la Torre. There is hardly a difference in his swing however, and he hit every ball fantastic.
So if there is something in his swing here that somebody does not like, it definitely had no effect on his ball striking.
Moe always claimed to have some new move, but in his ten or so clinics that I saw there was no difference visible in any of his shots. They almost all flew straight.
I have noticed from the videos that I have seen of Moe that he seemed to do exactly as you mentioned in your post. Always something new and better. Also in one of the articles from the Graves site it mentions that when Moe (young Moe) would not score well for a few holes he would ask his playing partners for advice even though they might not be nearly as good a golfer as Moe was.
I guess that Moe's swing was so ingrained that it did not matter much what he thought about when he swung! Kind of the same as most hacks except that the hacks always hack and Moe always pured it.
Ham, this clip is from a demo series that Moe did before the bankruptcy at NG, in which he was demonstrating a circular path to the ball; not so concerned with going over his coins, with a huge rotational move. It's a beautiful single axis swing and much more powerful than his regular swing. If you dig on the internet, you can find this video with voice, with Moe explaining the differences.
I think we have to be careful with these videos of Moe's swing, as many of them were captured, when Moe was under the swing developer influence. I think you, too, have to be careful in telling people that you swing like Moe...you have a beautiful single axis swing, but, certainly, not like Moe. That was the point I was trying to make to Herbert.
I have had a chance to view video clips of Moe doing demo, when he was paid by the canadian pro association, and he talks about his normal swing, and his Rodney round-house swing (my words), and why he didn't rotate around the ball, but could do so, if he needed the distance...in one tape he claimed 20 more yards and in another tape he claimed he could get 30 more yards. However, he felt that the control he loved was lacking with the roundhouse swing....he claimed it to be the antithesis of his regular swing.
You can't believe how quiet his lower body is in the 60's and 70's on these demo tapes. Moe goes on to demonstrate the difference between the two swings, by giving the picture of a dirt shovel, plant the blade behind the ball and shovel up, like you would throw the dirt with a shovel. It was an interesting analogy. He then goes on to show the roundhouse swing.
I like to think of the shoveling analogy for my model. You seem to have chosen the round-house Rodney for your model, and that is fine. My post to Herbert was to just explain that there is a difference.
has nothing to do with his regular swing and he makes that clear when an interviewer asks him why he's not playing in a Canadian event that was on at the time. Any swing Moe demonstrated where the ball went straight (as Ham reports) was not his 'distance' swing as Moe himself said the ball would be all over the place with that swing.
On Ken Martin's site there is a demo video of Moe where he claims that he was wrong all of his life and he is hitting it in a much simpler way that results in much greater distance ("40 yards further"). Moe gives credit to the best teacher in the world who is Manuel de la Torre. I believe that Ham shot the video?
Moe mentions that he never takes a divot or very seldom.
He also claims to be hitting it 290, maybe Ham can verify that distance?
from a while back indicated that Moe drove the ball 240 yards. These were in the time of persimmon drivers. If you look at some of the old Shell shows you will see that 240 is not so bad.
It would not suprise me for that 240 to go to 275 with newer technology. Moe had said in the interview I noted that he could get an extra 20-30 yards by turning more (and letting his hands go 'out of bounds' with a resulting lack of control).
Given this I'd not be suprised that Moe might hit the ball 290 with some swing changes but I've not seen any 'independent' confirmation that had the weight of those earlier reports.
Mow said that he was hitting it 290 or more during the demo. Maybe Ham can verify if this is reality or not? Did he really pick up 8 mph clubhead speed?
Also he was not taking divots on most shots. LOL, it seems like he could do pretty much anything that he wanted with a golf ball! Divots or no divots it didn't really make much difference. He says that the new swing is much easier and hits the ball much farther with no effort. He also says that he has a narrower stance and his arms hang down more and that he is not aware of his hands as they are just holding on to the club. I wonder how long this swing lasted with Moe? Does anybody know?
Ken Martin measured one of the drives in a demo where Moe said "now here's 300" and it turned out that it was well short of 300 yards. It was actually 296 yards. I think this took a lot of effort for Moe, and he therefore did not do it very often.
When Moe did try to hit it far he also still hit it very straight. I saw no bad shots. The swing was only a bit longer.
Regardless of what Moe said his swing was always basically the same. In most every demo he claimed to have a new swing, and to be longer then before. It was always something better. After that clinic he never mentioned the de la Torre book again.
I never saw Moe hit without taking divots. He always took divots with his irons. He even liked hitting balls out of his divots. Of course then he still hit it perfect.
Moe's own words on the video in question. He did hit a lot of wedge shots without taking a divot though some of them sounded a little thin to me. He also hit a lot of fairway wood shots with no divot on this video.
Interesting about the de la Torre influence. Moe seems to have been a lot like a typical hack in that he was always looking for something new... This makes me very proud to be a lot like Moe. LOL, the only difference was that he was the best ball striker around and my swing sucks. This might make me think that with Moe it was just shear talent and practice that made him great. I think though that in truth the mental side was just as important. Moe did not need anything like sports psychology or inner game or clear key or self hypnosis. He simply knew he was going to pure it and then he did it.
I do think that being able to hit it 300 yards with that short swing at 70 plus years of age has something to do with athletic ability. I think that it is more then just technique. What do you think???
Herbert writes - "Moe did not need anything like sports psychology or inner game or clear key or self hypnosis..."
No argument there, all would agree he "just did it". But Moe did have a a phrase that he would repeat to himself as he played shots - wanna know what he said? Okay, I will tell you....
"I am purrrrre ener-gee!"
Speculation about Moe's swing and whether or not "the Moe swing" is the one to emulate as THE swing is all very fun and interesting to read but IMO misses the mark as to what Moe was about. People watched him hit balls at clinics and demo's and were amazed. The stories and personal accounts are without end. One of my favorites is when Moe challenged Dave Pelz to a contest in accuracy - He would hit driver to the 250 marker on the range, and Pelz would hit putter from 50 yards, and they would see whose balls had the tighter pattern. Pelz declined of course!
But really, what was it about Moe's swing? Do you wanna swing like Moe? Score like Moe? Heh, sure you do. Right. Do you want to know Moe's greatness? Do you want to feel it? Are you ready, cause I am going to tell you how to swing like Moe. Once and for all. Never again will you wonder. Your search is over. Are you ready? This is the post of a lifetime. Better than any school, video, lesson series, or anything.
YOU CAN SWING LIKE MOE, IF YOU WILL WORK LIKE MOE.
This is what everyone forgets. It is so damn simple. Golf was his magnificent obsession. He literally lived and breathed Golf. Does anybody really think Moe just picked up a club and immediately began to pure it? Certainly he tinkered and struggled and groped and searched like we all do. The difference was he was driven to excellence and embarked on a journey of discovery to find the best way for him to strike the ball. In ways most of us can only imagine, Moe "dug it out of the ground" until he figured out what was required to pure it. He worked at it until his swing was literally as much a part of his being as was tying his shoes. And then he was smart enough to know that once he got it he got it. His keen, marvelous mind and spirit empowered him to allow his acquired swing to express itself fully without fear virtually every time he hit the ball, whether that was on the range or on the course.
"Jesus said to the man - One thing you require to be my disciple.....sell all you have and follow me....at this the man's face fell, for he had many possessions and great wealth"....Moe was "sold out" to excellence in golf. He paid a HUGE price, and for that he was rewarded with the privilege of acquiring that which sold out for. It's really all he wanted.
So where does that leave us who want to "swing like Moe"? We are not willing to leave our family and home, and sleep in bunkers, and hit 10's of thousand of balls and to devote ourselves exclusively to owning our swing. We have jobs, families, and other interests. Golf for us is a very enjoyable hobby and pastime. It provides us with many pleasurable experiences that IMO transcend all other physical activities the we can do, given the totally of the game compared to other sports.
We've all played golf as a hack, and if we have improved, have since played golf with hacks. Ever notice that the hacks whine and moan about their poor play more than anybody? They should have the surest expectation of sucking, and should be the least surprised that they do, but when they do they are the most upset. The excellent player, when he hits a bad shot, has a much more legitimate case for being pissed, because his expectation is to hit a great shot. Yet, the excellent player moans the least. We must be realistic about our swing and our game, and understand what we want out of it. What are your goals? Do you want to hit 300 yards? Learn and practice what you must to do that. Want to be a scratch golfer? Simple. Develop a service swing, and the hone your short game and putting to a fine art, and learn to think your way around the course. You don't need a great swing to scratch, you need stellar short game and putting. What do you want?
Most folks just aren't willing to work even a little to acquire basic skills and then work those basic skills enough so that they become ingrained as habits. Coupled with this is that most have never properly identified what is truly essential in order to develop a good swing, and so even if they are willing to work, they may be working on the wrong things. They can attend all the Graves schools they want ( to learn "THE Moe swing" sic ) and they will only improve marginally unless they can find a way to take what they learn and get it to the point where they can repeat it consistently without having to think about it. They are too impatient, wanting results right away, and when they hit the first road block or difficulty in their journey, they quit, or worse, declare that "it doesn't work" and move on to some other thing.
Swing like Moe? Ya think? FUHGEDABOUTIT! Really! Instead, Swing like you, and match your work load so that it is relevant to your expectation. Then you will be swinging like Moe! Actually, you won't be swinging like Moe, but you will "be like Moe".
You make good points about working hard and sticking with a plan.
I have heard of stories of more then one decent pro who 'sold out' and practiced constantly to try be like Hogan and disintegrated. I think those stories are proof that you have to practice smarter like Hogan or Moe did. Just beating balls or building a swing on incorrect mechanics is not going to pay off. Also of course as you well know there is no substitute for talent. Some people might be able to sell out intelligently and achieve an excellent golf game but never make a dime in tournament play. It is quite possible that there is no one who is genetically capable of doing what Moe did on planet earth. LOL, there are plenty of people who would end up in the hospital if they tried to hit 1000 balls a day. I sure would like to try it though! I would like to see if I would lose my enthusiasm and make a job out of it if I all did was practice and play all day every day... I think that I could become a pretty good player that way. I might never get the feeling greatness though...
Herbert, I never hit a thousand balls a day but at one time I did hit about 600 a day. When you do that you leave precious little time for short game practice and even playing for that matter. I found that after a certain number I was just going through the motion with no real purpose other than hitting balls. At present I spend very little time on the range, a bucket or two a week and just a few swings to warm up before a round. But I spend a lot of time around the practice green, usually with a friend or two in a chipping or putting contest. This makes if fun and the competition forces you to use your routine instead of just stroking putt after putt. Anyway, I think range work is great if you're working on a swing change but only to a point. Too long and too many balls is counter-productive. At least it was for me.
If you have a body and a golf club and a TASK of striking the ball without sidespin, then you must come to the conclusion that there is a way that is more repeatable where you match the anatomy to the golf club. Moe figured this out intuitively. When you stop looking at his swing as idiosyncratic and model him you will improve.
In order to hit the ball without sidespin consistently requires a square clubface at impact. It is not necessary to match the club to anatomy but rather to have a specific swing; A fact revealed by putting.
Todd wrote: "then you must come to the conclusion that there is a way that is more repeatable where you match the anatomy to the golf club."
Uh...what Peter said ( Vijay Singh vs Mike Weir )plus this: There is a way that is the MOST repeatable for each golfer, and it is incumbent on the golfer to learn what that is for him. There are definitely wrong ways to hit a golf ball. Given enough time though, even the wrong way ends up being the right way:
"It's normal for me, he admitted. "It's such a mental game you have to control your mind. I've gotten quite a bit of notoriety from being a cross-hand player. But playing cross-handed is just part of my game." Hmm...Imagine that. Part of HIS game. I love that. Right for him. ( how many of us that have qualified for any of our National Opens?)
There is no one right way. If I deliver the club head to the ball as I intended to on the next shot, then that is the right way. If I can consistently deliver the club head to ball as I intend to shot after shot, then that is the right way. That is golf swing. Most of us PLAY and we then have the challenge of doing the above in the context of a competitive match, where the object is to post the best possible score our ability will allow us to. That is golf. When our "range swing" is the same as our "course swing", that is golf mastery. When you can win consistently using golf mastery, that is golf genius.
Todd wrote: "When you stop looking at his swing as idiosyncratic and model him you will improve."
I view all swings as idiosyncratic in that they are the products of the individual's body, personality, and mental and emotional capacities. It is no secret that I use a swing model based on the single axis variant known as IMA, amped by Bertholy. ( though if Peter, EPII, or Scott H. were to inspect it I am sure they would declare it to not be pure IMA! ). It is Bertholy's view that when it comes to a fine golf swing, there really are only a few fundamentals that must be present. And that often, style is mistaken for fundamental. I choose to model the fundamentals, those common characteristics that are present in all great swings - Hogan's, Moe's, Tiger's, Yours . Just focusing on modeling these fundamentals, I have improved - lots. One of the comments you hear a lot is how the golf swing has changed so much over the years, the modern swing etc. That is true to some extent. But go back 40 years and look at the pros then and the pros now, and you still see the same things at transition, just prior to impact, and at impact. That's a pretty damn good model.
My goals are more modest than 80 yard increases in distance.
I, currently, hit the drive 210. When I break down and buy new golf balls, 217. I am doing strength training this winter, along with chlosterol reduction and weight loss (8 week chlosterol cure, Kawalski), baking my own muffins (it's true). My goal is 225 for the drive at 67 years of age. I would be happy with that.
Don't mean to pound my own drum, but I did get good last year, and it IS about the mastery of technique. Last year, in competition, I was, consistently, shooting in the 30's (high), didn't lose one match in league (never came close to that performance before...not even close), and even beat the club professional, which was VERY sweet, because he dislikes single axis golf!! I don't think I will ever replace the performance of last year.
However, in spite of my, deadly, accuracy and good looks, I do know where you are going with my 210-217 yard drives, and getting the proper release is one of my goals.
So many of the swing developers have switched over to Peter's idea of the 2 to 2.5 idea (including Todd, I think, but not sure), and I don't like that; nor does Scott H. of IMA (based on conversation of some years ago). Homero Blancas seems to do this (release) correctly, and, perhaps, I could find him for a discussion. Release got much better for me, when I learned how to, properly, address the ball, but that is going to be my primary focus for this year, and, then, I think I will have it.
If Moe really was hitting it 300 yards at 72 years of age then you should be able to do the same if your technique is as good as Moe's was. Unless of course Moe had some other advantage over you that allowed him to hit it further then you can hit it?
Herbert, Moe could whip you and me with one hand tied behind his back...his arms/wrists were so strong you couldn't hardly see his wrist bones. Unlike me, Moe was strong....but I'm working on it!!
In 1986, Greg Norman, at 31 years of age, was the second longest driver on tour at about 280. Moe Norman, 26 years older than Greg Norman, at age 57, hit his average, ho-hum drive 245. The difference in age is 26 years and the difference in distance is 12.5 per cent.
Remington, when using decent golf balls, hits the ball 217, with a driver from about 1986, and Remington is 36 years older than Greg Norman in 1986 and 10 years older than Moe. If you gave Remington the same 12.5 per cent difference to Moe, then I should be hitting 214.
So, actually, I'm hitting three yards farther than I should be!!
So, lets look at it from another angle. Moe at age 72 was able to hit the ball 300 yards compared to the 245 that he hit it in 1986. Therefore you should be able to hit the ball at least 50 yards further today then you did in 1986.
Didn't Moe have a swing speed of around 105mph? Would that really produce 300 yard drives? Doesn't sound right to me if 105 was his swing speed. Maybe he was capable of more but seems somebody said he wanted control much more than speed. Another thing that bothers me concerning Moe is this, and in no way am I trying to accuse or insult anyone, but everything I've ever read about Moe Norman says he was extremely shy and only had a very few close friends that he truly trusted. Also that nobody gained access to him unless they did so through one of these friends. Yet today I hear and read of all kinds of people out there who claim to have been very close to Moe and spent all kinds of time with him. Which is true? Was Moe really that reclusive and are people making false claims or was Moe not as hard to approach as has been reported. He seems friendly and comfortable in the clinic videos that I have of him but maybe that was because he was in his own little world even though people were there to see him. I know that Todd Graves spent a lot of time with him so Todd, if you're reading this would you give us your opinion about this. Thanks.
Moe hit the ball straight with whatever swing he claimed to be making at the time.
The swing you call roundhouse can be compared to the journeyman tape and you can see that the way the club moved was virtually identical to the video I posted. Older video from Moe also shows virtually the same thing.
The working of Moe's swing has not changed from when he was 19 years old. Even when he was 65 it was the same, and as proof of this Moe always hit the ball straight.
Moe was not under anybody's influence when he did this demo, or any other that I am aware of. Nobody told Moe how to swing. I was there and filmed this and around 10 other demos. This one was private with only about 20 people or so present.
You make a lot of claims, but fail to provide any proof of them. Post a video with some kind of proof. Post your own swing. Nothing to be afraid of here.
I think you are also confused as to what is important in Moe's golf swing and what is not, but that is my opinion.
My swing posted has a likeness to Moe's swing in that I setup on close to the same plane that I make impact on, and the mechanics of the club movement are also very simular. I am much taller then Moe and have a completely different build then him, and am right handed instead of left handed like Moe.
Post your swing, if you are not afraid to exhibit your greatness.
Moe's setup of course did change, but my point is that his swing, or the mechanics that enabled him to hit the balls straight did not change. His transition being faster did not affect the mechanics of how the club moved in the swing.
Of course when he was younger his swing was also much longer, but the main element which enabled him to hit the ball straight did not ever change since he learned it at 19 years old.
Moe released the club so that it was always square at impact. If he stood with his feet together, or wide apart he would still release square. I think he could have stood on his head and still hit straight, because of his square release. He could make a fast transition, or slow, or long swing, or short, regardless of what he did, or tried with his swing, the results were always the same. The ball flew straight. I know that you understand Moe's release very well, but I doubt that Remington or many of the others here do. He posts all this stuff about how he stood, or how much leg movement, or where he placed the club, and I just don't think that was what made Moe great.
The mechanics of Moe's square release are what made him great.
I would credit a good part of my understanding of Moe's release to Scott Hazeldine. I think he may have been the first to figure it out, and his explanation of how it works is also the best I have seen.
Ham said: " I think he could have stood on his head and still hit straight.."
He just knew how to put the club on the ball. He did it instinctively, without thinking about it. Any grip, any stance, any club. It didn't matter.
Have you ever just been screwing around at the range, got bored, and tried different things? You know maybe go back to the CG golf set up and grip - grip in fingers set up and make some swings? Or done that goofy LPG. LOL some of us do that about every 6 months! If you have any skill at all, you can put a reasonably good strike on the ball with something other than your preferred set-up, grip, swing style. Try it sometime. If we can do it, Moe certainly could.
As far as swinging like Moe, what was it that Moe said about swinging like him? Something about he wouldn't try to teach someone to swing like him, that you should swing your swing....somebody has that quote Im sure.
I, like probably most here, have several videos of Moe and it is on one of them that somebody asked him that question about should people try to learn to swing like him and his response was no. I have the Journeyman tape, a clinic tape and the Fireside Chat. I know it wasn't on the Fireside Chat tape so that leaves one of the other two.
that you are correct and the mechanics that gave Moe a square clubface at impact have not changed at least since he went to his first Masters and Hogan commented on his straight ball flight. The changes in his swing that I noted would not effect this but might have provided other benefits which caused Moe to adopt them.
and squareness are separate. You can be square at impact with a steep angle of attack or with a shallow one. In fact angle of attack is something that is changed often by pros depending on the shot they want to hit (changing ball position is one way to change the angle of attack at impact).
Like any good pro Moe would change his angle of attack in order to vary the shot (trajectory and spin).
It sounds like you must have seen this video in the past.
You can watch it again here:
It is in Moe's room the 2002 Mission Clinic. Hmmm, there is some very interesting text information about the video there that solves one SAGF mystery...
Moe states very clearly on this video that he changed his swing after reading and or seeing information that he got from Manuel de la Torre the greatest golf teacher in the world. The changes had nothing to do with the NG coporation...
I think that the real question is did his swing really change in one week? I kind of doubt it...
I had seen that video before and knew about him seeing de la Torre but watching the video again, at least from the rear angle, I don't see anything different about his swing even though he mentions his stance being not as wide and having his arms hang a little lower. Frankly, and this is just my opinion, I believe that Moe had so ingrained his swing that he probably couldn't have changed it in any significant way even if he had wanted to. I don't say this with any insult intended to Moe or Mr. de la Torre or anyone else. I have read his book and watched his video and I believe him to be a very dedicated teacher who has probably helped a great many people. And maybe Moe did learn a thing or two from him that did increase his clubhead speed but his swing looks the same to me.
Herbert, it is a fabulous swing that he is demonstrating on that tape. Just watch those hips unwind and that belly come rotating around with the arms behind. Absolutely, beautiful, but not the Moe swing from which I model.
The two things that helped me nail Moe's swing was an understanding of the straight line from the ankle to the shoulder (leading side), and how this position is pretty much maintained throughout the swing, which allows the right leg to stump forward, and the swing to start with the forward motion of the left knee. The whole swing just went on auto pilot, when I figured this out.
The second thing was in understanding that there is resistance (of varying degrees...however you want it) on the left leg in the downswing, which allows the upper body to come around and face the target on each shot. I never understood this idea, primarily, due to influences of IMA and Jack K.
I did understand the motion on the downswing to the inside of the right foot from Scott H. However, I don't think a lot of people understand this motion, which prevents them from getting the "shoveling" motion, and forces their swing into a Roundhouse Rodney effect.
Those were the three things that cemented the Moe effect for me. There is not a lot I want to change about my swing right now...however, it was -24 F. this morning (yes, 24 degrees BELOW zero), and I'd like to change my swing into sunny Arizona or Florida.
Herbert, I should have mentioned that I was talking about a post made by Remington about the line from the shoulder down, not a post by you, but the photo and line you posted opened my eyes to what he was talking about. Sorry for any confusion.
it looks like his whole body makes a slight move back toward the target
even before he finishes his back swing. He dosn't unwind but his whole
body seems to move left or lean left before he finishes his back swing.
I noticed this by looking at the trees behind him.
Is this right.
If it's not right what is he doing? i see a definite movement
near the top.