New swing videos from today including single planeDecember 30 2008 at 11:54 AM
|Ham (Login hammeredit)|
SAGF Members 2001
Posted some new videos today on both youtube, and magnify.net.
Magnify.net has much higher quality videos. If you click on the little box in just under the video all the way on the right side you can watch full screen in very high quality. You can view videos there at http://golfinfo.magnify.net
Here is the improved swing from today. I cut down on the head movement and my ball striking improved immediately to what it was over the summer. I think that in trying to increase my swing speed I started moving my head too much. After clicking on the video click the little box below to the right to view in full screen.
Posted to Golf Info
on December 30, 2008 Click to Play
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Youtube videos can be viewed at the following link. http://www.youtube.com/user/k2golfer
The single plane swings and shots all were very well struck and straight. It is for some reason very easy for me to switch back and forth between the two setups. Conventional is more comfortable for me though. Clubhead speed is about the same.
Very nice video
|December 30 2008, 1:54 PM |
Ham, excellent video. Wow. I remember the first picture posted on the single axis forum by Grant, and we were all amazed!!...about 1996 or 97?
You have a wonderful single axis golf swing, along the lines that NG might teach (currently). You might try a couple of things that worked for me, and see what you think about them. I think these changes could, possibly, make your swing more comfortable (as comfortable as your conventional swing), and, deadly, accurate.
Your set-up with the leading arm is nice (takes you awhile to get there!!) but try to stand in such a manner that there is a stright line from your leading shoulder down. Moe varied his stance widthin his playing days. So, if your feet are closer together you will be standing more upright, but there will STILL be that straight line from the leading shoulder down....and that line is part of why the swing works.
Most people who stand like you do at address cannot stump the right leg and have it leaning forward (Scott H. couldn't do this at first, and he weighted OVER the right..trailing..leg.) In order to make it happen your way, i.e., stand like you do and still stump right leg forward, you move near a stack and tilt move...towards that kind of move. If you set-up, properly, you won't do that. This isn't as easy as it sounds, and you have to practice in the mirror a bit, and change your stance width, when you do. (As I remember from your video you would have to have your left leg more forward...wider stance...in order to get that straight line).
As Moe got older he would sometimes stand a little straighter and even jut his hip out a bit (he started to swing more AROUND himself), but, even then, as soon as he starts to swing that straight line is there. Same with Todd Graves...as soon as he starts to swing that straight line is right there. HOWEVER, everybody should START with that straight line, because the move is so INTEGRAL to the success of the swing.
There are three straight lines. Leading left shoulder down is straight, left arm is straight in-line to shaft, and shaft is in line with right arm at impact.
I am fortunate to be living in a place where I meet a lot of old golf pros who played with Moe, and here is another one of what I consider to be a secret.
I was taken by NG when it first came out in 1995. Two years later, I turned to the Journeyman tape, and tried to learn Moe's swing from this tape...I should have gone back another 10-15 years, before he modified his swing to look more "conventional".
What I could never figure out is that ease of turning the upper body full to the target, and this conflicted with Jack K who wanted to face the ball THROUGH impact, to such an extent that he wouldn't bend the left arm at all...see Todd Graves in 1995 Golf Digest article to see this move. Scott H., the new NG and Tom Sanders all pretty much followed the lead on this idea of Jack's, with the stay facing routine. This idea, requires a supple left leg...Scott H. used to say have a soft calf muscle on the leading leg.
I first learned about Moe modifying his swing to look more conventional from one of the senior editor's at Golf Digest. Primarily, he stated that Moe, in his younger days, didn't come out of all his shots....stayed in the hit position.
What I am saying here Ham is to allow the left leg to bend, but give the leading leg RESISTANCE, and this is what causes that upper body to come around so nicely from wedge to driver, after impact.
The left leg resistance allows the club to pass the body faster, and you will find that on some shots you won't bother to come up out of it...in other words you can vary the amount of resistance...you can get a feeling like you are hitting the ball from the middle of your stance...little bit like the feeling of Rotor Golf hitting into that resisted left leg, if you resist it a lot.
You will find yourself hitting your fairway woods with a lot of resistance, long and dead straight. Again, I want to emphasize that you can vary this resistance at will to suit the shot. This is a major difference between the swing developers and Moe.
If a person has ever had any single axis experience, and you learn just these two things, you will become a remarkable ball striker.
Nice job on the video...I enjoyed seeing that.
SAGF Members 2001
|December 31 2008, 4:57 AM |
Thanks for your comments. I guess you have no idea what my experience has been with the Moe swing. I have been involved with learning the swing since 1995 when I was first exposed to it. It took me a while to figure out that the swing developers had it all wrong, or at least mostly wrong. What they said to do was not close to what Moe actually did.
I tried every variation possible, only to find out that they did not know what they were talking about. I know them all personally, as I also knew Moe. I have many hours of video shot of Moe from various clinics he performed. I have seen video of Moe's swing also from his younger days as well. Everybody that has done and taught the Moe swing has an opinion as to how it should be taught, what works and what doesn't. I only taught it for around 8 years to hundreds of students. I learned a lot about what works and what doesn't work because of that experience.
I competed in many Professional events setup like Moe. Even managed to win one. Since then I switched back to conventional as it is more comfortable to me, and I notice no difference in my shotmaking ability. With the videos I posted I hoped to show that there is very little difference between the two swings. The club moves almost exactly the same as does my body, and even the results are very similar. I think with conventional I get a bit better of a ball flight as I can get my hands a bit more ahead at impact due to standing a bit nearer.
The way my golf club moves through the swing is very similar to how Moe's moved in every video I ever saw of him. To me it is not about how Moe's legs moved, or what his body did, or where he started with the club. It is about how his club moved throughout the swing. This club movement is also very similar to how the best pros today move the club.
I think that the Stack and tilt idea works very well for both Moe's swing, and conventional golf.
It is my opinion that many of the movements you are looking at in Moe's swing are his body's reactions needed by him to keep him on balance throughout his swing and enabled him to make great contact time after time. As he setup so far away he had to hit into a bent left leg and move down into impact in order to be able to hit the ball with the hands ahead at impact. Setup a little closer and you do not need to make that move. I find it more repeatable to hit into a straighter left leg. Straight is easy to repeat, bent is always different. You cannot bend the exact same amount every time. Of course Moe hit millions of golf balls learning his move. Most do not have the time or desire to hit that many.
The point about not turning, or facing the ball at impact was IMO the worst advice giving for those wanting to do the Moe swing. Moe never did this in any film I ever saw. His hips were always open at impact. In limiting this action I even managed to injure myself. The forward speed of the golf club needs to go somewhere after impact. If your body does not turn to accept that speed and stop it you need to then need to find another way. IMO there is not another easy way to do that and be a good ballstriker. The hips must be turned towards the target at impact. I have never seen a good balstriker who did not have the hips turned, and turn through to face the target at the end of the swing.
If you have a video of Moe hitting a shot where he never came out of the hitting position as you posted then please post here for all to see.
Also please post a video of yourself hitting balls for people here to see what it is that you do. Time to release that fear of exhibiting your swing and go for it. Just post it. Then maybe people will be able to understand what you are saying better. What better stage then the Internet to exhibit???
Please let me know if anything here is not clear to you.
Ham you mentioned that you think
|December 31 2008, 6:46 PM |
that the Stack and tilt idea works very well for both Moe's swing, and conventional golf.
You don't seem to do it . Is it more for average golfers?
SAGF Members 2001
New videos of Moe posted
|December 31 2008, 7:42 AM |
Gotta watch out for this one
|December 31 2008, 10:09 AM |
Ham: This is a great looking swing that Moe is executing, but one has to watch out, as this sequence was made, during one of the last swing developer influences...kind of a model for the NG swing (modern). Todd or Tim could put this video in perspective.
I got six emails asking what the straight line from the leading shoulder meant. Sorry about that. It means that when Moe addressed the ball, if you drew a straight line from the ankle up to the shoulder that it would be in-line at address.
SAGF Members 2001
I knew Moe quite well...
|December 31 2008, 12:43 PM |
and he was not influenced in this film by any of your so called "swing developers". Moe in this video had read a book by Manuel de la Torre. There is hardly a difference in his swing however, and he hit every ball fantastic.
So if there is something in his swing here that somebody does not like, it definitely had no effect on his ball striking.
Moe always claimed to have some new move, but in his ten or so clinics that I saw there was no difference visible in any of his shots. They almost all flew straight.
SAGF Members 2001
I didn't :-)
|December 31 2008, 3:14 PM |
I have noticed from the videos that I have seen of Moe that he seemed to do exactly as you mentioned in your post. Always something new and better. Also in one of the articles from the Graves site it mentions that when Moe (young Moe) would not score well for a few holes he would ask his playing partners for advice even though they might not be nearly as good a golfer as Moe was.
I guess that Moe's swing was so ingrained that it did not matter much what he thought about when he swung! Kind of the same as most hacks except that the hacks always hack and Moe always pured it.
|December 31 2008, 9:16 PM |
Herbert, this is a highly affected, short-lived swing that Moe demonstrated for the benefit of swing developers of the time....this ain't the Moe we have come to love.
As Ham said...
|January 1 2009, 12:21 PM |
that was not the case. Your opinions would carry more weight it you either:
o Had actually seen Moe in person
o Could post objective evidence of your claim
SAGF Members 2001
Nobody told Moe....
|January 1 2009, 1:20 PM |
how to swing. That would be like me telling Roger Federer how to play tennis.
The guy hit the ball better then anybody who ever lived. You don't give him advice you get advice from him.
He did sometimes demonstrate something for JK, but when he hit the ball he then used his normal grip.
The swings of Moe
|January 2 2009, 8:07 AM |
Ham, this clip is from a demo series that Moe did before the bankruptcy at NG, in which he was demonstrating a circular path to the ball; not so concerned with going over his coins, with a huge rotational move. It's a beautiful single axis swing and much more powerful than his regular swing. If you dig on the internet, you can find this video with voice, with Moe explaining the differences.
I think we have to be careful with these videos of Moe's swing, as many of them were captured, when Moe was under the swing developer influence. I think you, too, have to be careful in telling people that you swing like Moe...you have a beautiful single axis swing, but, certainly, not like Moe. That was the point I was trying to make to Herbert.
I have had a chance to view video clips of Moe doing demo, when he was paid by the canadian pro association, and he talks about his normal swing, and his Rodney round-house swing (my words), and why he didn't rotate around the ball, but could do so, if he needed the distance...in one tape he claimed 20 more yards and in another tape he claimed he could get 30 more yards. However, he felt that the control he loved was lacking with the roundhouse swing....he claimed it to be the antithesis of his regular swing.
You can't believe how quiet his lower body is in the 60's and 70's on these demo tapes. Moe goes on to demonstrate the difference between the two swings, by giving the picture of a dirt shovel, plant the blade behind the ball and shovel up, like you would throw the dirt with a shovel. It was an interesting analogy. He then goes on to show the roundhouse swing.
I like to think of the shoveling analogy for my model. You seem to have chosen the round-house Rodney for your model, and that is fine. My post to Herbert was to just explain that there is a difference.
Moe's distance swing...
|January 2 2009, 10:19 AM |
has nothing to do with his regular swing and he makes that clear when an interviewer asks him why he's not playing in a Canadian event that was on at the time. Any swing Moe demonstrated where the ball went straight (as Ham reports) was not his 'distance' swing as Moe himself said the ball would be all over the place with that swing.
SAGF Members 2001
Re: Moe's distance swing...
|January 4 2009, 1:04 PM |
On Ken Martin's site there is a demo video of Moe where he claims that he was wrong all of his life and he is hitting it in a much simpler way that results in much greater distance ("40 yards further"). Moe gives credit to the best teacher in the world who is Manuel de la Torre. I believe that Ham shot the video?
Moe mentions that he never takes a divot or very seldom.
He also claims to be hitting it 290, maybe Ham can verify that distance?
Many independent reports...
|January 4 2009, 1:34 PM |
from a while back indicated that Moe drove the ball 240 yards. These were in the time of persimmon drivers. If you look at some of the old Shell shows you will see that 240 is not so bad.
It would not suprise me for that 240 to go to 275 with newer technology. Moe had said in the interview I noted that he could get an extra 20-30 yards by turning more (and letting his hands go 'out of bounds' with a resulting lack of control).
Given this I'd not be suprised that Moe might hit the ball 290 with some swing changes but I've not seen any 'independent' confirmation that had the weight of those earlier reports.
SAGF Members 2001
|January 4 2009, 10:23 PM |
Mow said that he was hitting it 290 or more during the demo. Maybe Ham can verify if this is reality or not? Did he really pick up 8 mph clubhead speed?
Also he was not taking divots on most shots. LOL, it seems like he could do pretty much anything that he wanted with a golf ball! Divots or no divots it didn't really make much difference. He says that the new swing is much easier and hits the ball much farther with no effort. He also says that he has a narrower stance and his arms hang down more and that he is not aware of his hands as they are just holding on to the club. I wonder how long this swing lasted with Moe? Does anybody know?
SAGF Members 2001
|January 5 2009, 7:17 PM |
Ken Martin measured one of the drives in a demo where Moe said "now here's 300" and it turned out that it was well short of 300 yards. It was actually 296 yards.
I think this took a lot of effort for Moe, and he therefore did not do it very often.
When Moe did try to hit it far he also still hit it very straight. I saw no bad shots. The swing was only a bit longer.
Regardless of what Moe said his swing was always basically the same. In most every demo he claimed to have a new swing, and to be longer then before. It was always something better. After that clinic he never mentioned the de la Torre book again.
I never saw Moe hit without taking divots. He always took divots with his irons. He even liked hitting balls out of his divots. Of course then he still hit it perfect.
SAGF Members 2001
Never take a divot,
|January 6 2009, 12:53 AM |
never take a divot... very seldom.
Moe's own words on the video in question. He did hit a lot of wedge shots without taking a divot though some of them sounded a little thin to me. He also hit a lot of fairway wood shots with no divot on this video.
Interesting about the de la Torre influence. Moe seems to have been a lot like a typical hack in that he was always looking for something new... This makes me very proud to be a lot like Moe. LOL, the only difference was that he was the best ball striker around and my swing sucks. This might make me think that with Moe it was just shear talent and practice that made him great. I think though that in truth the mental side was just as important. Moe did not need anything like sports psychology or inner game or clear key or self hypnosis. He simply knew he was going to pure it and then he did it.
I do think that being able to hit it 300 yards with that short swing at 70 plus years of age has something to do with athletic ability. I think that it is more then just technique. What do you think???
SAGF Members 2001
|January 6 2009, 10:06 PM |
it was technique and strength. Moe was strong as an ox, he hit the middle of the clubface, and could hit the ball on the proper trajectory to get maximum distance.
SAGF Members 2001
Funny you should mention that
|January 7 2009, 7:45 AM |
Herbert writes - "Moe did not need anything like sports psychology or inner game or clear key or self hypnosis..."
No argument there, all would agree he "just did it". But Moe did have a a phrase that he would repeat to himself as he played shots - wanna know what he said? Okay, I will tell you....
"I am purrrrre ener-gee!"
Speculation about Moe's swing and whether or not "the Moe swing" is the one to emulate as THE swing is all very fun and interesting to read but IMO misses the mark as to what Moe was about. People watched him hit balls at clinics and demo's and were amazed. The stories and personal accounts are without end. One of my favorites is when Moe challenged Dave Pelz to a contest in accuracy - He would hit driver to the 250 marker on the range, and Pelz would hit putter from 50 yards, and they would see whose balls had the tighter pattern. Pelz declined of course!
But really, what was it about Moe's swing? Do you wanna swing like Moe? Score like Moe? Heh, sure you do. Right. Do you want to know Moe's greatness? Do you want to feel it? Are you ready, cause I am going to tell you how to swing like Moe. Once and for all. Never again will you wonder. Your search is over. Are you ready? This is the post of a lifetime. Better than any school, video, lesson series, or anything.
YOU CAN SWING LIKE MOE, IF YOU WILL WORK LIKE MOE.
This is what everyone forgets. It is so damn simple. Golf was his magnificent obsession. He literally lived and breathed Golf. Does anybody really think Moe just picked up a club and immediately began to pure it? Certainly he tinkered and struggled and groped and searched like we all do. The difference was he was driven to excellence and embarked on a journey of discovery to find the best way for him to strike the ball. In ways most of us can only imagine, Moe "dug it out of the ground" until he figured out what was required to pure it. He worked at it until his swing was literally as much a part of his being as was tying his shoes. And then he was smart enough to know that once he got it he got it. His keen, marvelous mind and spirit empowered him to allow his acquired swing to express itself fully without fear virtually every time he hit the ball, whether that was on the range or on the course.
"Jesus said to the man - One thing you require to be my disciple.....sell all you have and follow me....at this the man's face fell, for he had many possessions and great wealth"....Moe was "sold out" to excellence in golf. He paid a HUGE price, and for that he was rewarded with the privilege of acquiring that which sold out for. It's really all he wanted.
So where does that leave us who want to "swing like Moe"? We are not willing to leave our family and home, and sleep in bunkers, and hit 10's of thousand of balls and to devote ourselves exclusively to owning our swing. We have jobs, families, and other interests. Golf for us is a very enjoyable hobby and pastime. It provides us with many pleasurable experiences that IMO transcend all other physical activities the we can do, given the totally of the game compared to other sports.
We've all played golf as a hack, and if we have improved, have since played golf with hacks. Ever notice that the hacks whine and moan about their poor play more than anybody? They should have the surest expectation of sucking, and should be the least surprised that they do, but when they do they are the most upset. The excellent player, when he hits a bad shot, has a much more legitimate case for being pissed, because his expectation is to hit a great shot. Yet, the excellent player moans the least. We must be realistic about our swing and our game, and understand what we want out of it. What are your goals? Do you want to hit 300 yards? Learn and practice what you must to do that. Want to be a scratch golfer? Simple. Develop a service swing, and the hone your short game and putting to a fine art, and learn to think your way around the course. You don't need a great swing to scratch, you need stellar short game and putting. What do you want?
Most folks just aren't willing to work even a little to acquire basic skills and then work those basic skills enough so that they become ingrained as habits. Coupled with this is that most have never properly identified what is truly essential in order to develop a good swing, and so even if they are willing to work, they may be working on the wrong things. They can attend all the Graves schools they want ( to learn "THE Moe swing" sic ) and they will only improve marginally unless they can find a way to take what they learn and get it to the point where they can repeat it consistently without having to think about it. They are too impatient, wanting results right away, and when they hit the first road block or difficulty in their journey, they quit, or worse, declare that "it doesn't work" and move on to some other thing.
Swing like Moe? Ya think? FUHGEDABOUTIT! Really! Instead, Swing like you, and match your work load so that it is relevant to your expectation. Then you will be swinging like Moe! Actually, you won't be swinging like Moe, but you will "be like Moe".