Taking RemBo's advice and just fooling around some looking at Moe:



Bertholy Positions 1 and 2:
Moe's comment on head Position "So it is already back"





Bertholy Positions 3 and 4-4.25 The Master Move
Moe's comment "I play into my legs"







Bertholy Positions Impact, Rifle Barrel, and Finish
Moe's comment " I'm the only one in the world that hits it straight every time"

Tell me about the hand position since the clubface is somewhat related to the hands.

Todd

to square the clubface (hit it straight) depends on your grip. Moe's hand position is appropriate for his grip. It would not be an appropriate hand position for someone with a HSS swing. As a result this is one of those things that Bertholy puts in a 'style' category vs being fundamental to all swings. However the fact that his hands are ahead of the ball at impact is fundamental.

Peter

I wasn't quite sure what you meant, hand position in the swing, or hand position on the club etc and Peter addressed it for the most part. How the club squares is a function of the grip one chooses, and the way one gets to impact. But in every case a great swing will show the hands like this at impact, no matter the grip one chooses:



I had an interesting thing happen with my grip this spring. I use an IMA lead hand grip for the most part, and have always pretty much gripped the club with the traditional SA "back of the lead hand facing the target" per IMA. In addressing the ball, I would take my lead hand grip, then let my lead arm lower onto my lead pectoral muscle to set my connection, then allow the weight of the club to set my lead wrist to maximum deviation. And then bend down to the ball like this:



This has worked fine for years and as long as I keep the connection, the clubface squares. This spring however, something changed. Following the same sequence as shown above, when I let my lead wrist hinge down into maximum deviation, the clubface closes - and I don't mean just a couple degrees! It closes down big time. I have no idea why this all changed. The end result is that my lead hand grip now looks much "stronger" with the back of my lead hand more visible when at address. I have had to insert a check point into my routine for a square clubface at address.

My traditional SA grip "didn't work" anymore, for whatever reason. If I would have insisted on keeping it the old way, I eventually would have "made it work", but that would mean MANIPULATING the hands to accomplish that would be bad bad bad....at least for me.

Here's some more fun. Follows are two shots side by side. One is a "CG" set up and swing and the other is my "SA" set up and swing. Both swings produced nice long straight shots.

Question #1 - Which swing is which?

Question #2 - Which one would you rather have if you needed "one swing to win?"

Bonus - For both swings, what does the third sequence represent and why do you think they look so similar?










And CD, NO, I didn't shoot a down line sequence, and YES you must pick one, even if they are up to your high "golferly" expectations!

No. 2 is SA. No. 2 is the one I would want for me. I think that the 3rd photos represent the vertical drop/weight shift into the downswing. At any rate, both swings look very good to me. I would love to have either but
no.2 would be first preference.
Jerry

The one on the right is the SA setup. You look to be close to a simple swing setup. You need to point your lead elbow at the target a little more and probably make a slight adjustment on your lead hand grip.

Other then that it looks like you need to work on your head reversal according to what you have posted in the past???

More frames would be good also.

Looks like a good swing anyway! The setup position probably does not make all that much difference though my advice would be to quit making 'different' swings as it just might cause you to get mixed up while on clear key and the hit the ball way off line possibly to the left.

Regards, Herbert

I agree with Herbert about the different swings statement. If you did this only for comparison, and I suspect that you did, then no problem. But I have been having problems lately (been using a CG swing) and have tried swithching so many things in my swing that I am now almost paralyzed. I have gone back to a SA setup and swing, it's kind of a hybrid I guess (lead hand a tiny bit stronger than most, but I think most of the SA swings have basically the same fundamentals. Felt more comfortable today than in a while. Was hitting blades and they felt so sweet for a change. Never ceases to amaze me how much more often I find the sweet spot with a good SA swing than a CG swing. Also reminds me of how much less my usual aches and pains bother me. I can't do SS at all (the setup stance) or pure IMA or pure NG. But I think I'm not too far outside of any SA swing other than SS. Though my lead hand grip is bit stronger it isn't anywhere near HSS. I think it's time to break out the GSC 101 book and dedicate myself to conditioning my body to make the proper moves in sequence. Never did really work with that. Sorry this has gone on a bit and probably gotten off topic but looking at your photos kind of got me motivated. You really do have nice looking swing.
Jerry

kettle black! Herbert telling me to quit making different swings! NOW THAT is a good one.....hahahahah.

On the serious side, both shots were done on clearkey. On clearkey, with a proper pre-shot and clear conscious direction and self talk, the subconscious will accomplish the task quite nicely. The problem for most is they don't have the info stored in the first place, so when they release to automatic and the subconscious goes to the vault it finds a bunch of unfinished business. "Garbage in garbage out" applies. But even if you have good info stored, you must still "click on the right file" in order to call it up and have it displayed. This is the importance of pre-shot and self-talk. There must also be a clear break from manual, conscious direction to automatic. Most people who "try clearkey" and give up because "it doesn't work" have issues in this area. But that's another post for another thread.

But this post gets to pretty much my "view" on the golf swing. Two very different set ups, two very different swing styles. But in the area most critical to a fine swing, there is no difference. The "sub-habit" of the master move I have worked on for so long gets called into being with either swing. I can guarantee that if a player can get to these positions using whatever swing method he chooses, he has a very good chance at hitting a good shot.

I didn't post more frames cause they weren't important for what I wanted to demonstrate....

an alcoholic telling a person not to drink!
Maybe you can get away with it and maybe you playing with fire...

I quit using clear key because...
I don't like it. I don't like not thinking about what I am doing. I make a lot of mistakes when I am on auto pilot and not thinking about what I am doing in daily life so how is that going to work during a golf swing? Also I like feeling nervous and scared over a shot, the challenge is to develop a swing that holds up under pressure. Something I trust so much that I can do it even when I can't think straight. Remington's 'Fear and ANGER' I guess. There is also 'fear and euphoria'. I guess that is why I play the game.

I know that this sounds like nonsense to you and GIGO and all that but I trust my instincts a lot more at this stage of my life then I used to. Twenty years ago I would have followed the instructions for clear key exactly and I would have spent many hours drilling on clear key and I believe that in the end it would not have worked for me because I am just not built that way.

Of course on the other hand maybe clear key will feel right to me some day and then I will let you know that I am a dumbass for not working on it sooner; if you are still around! I can say for sure that the personality profile and the information provided helped me a lot to understand why I do the things that I do in golf and in other areas of my life as well so the money that I spent on clear key was well spent!

Regards, Herbert

On the left is CG.

I like the one on the left.

Master position? The slot is the slot
regardless of method.

everyone got it. The left side is CG, the right side is SA. And of course I don't experiment with different swings. Once I started in on Bertholy, that was pretty much it for me. I settled on my current set-up and grip just a short while after beginning Bertholy.

I only did this to illustrate my flavor of golf swing philosophy - different swings as to style - same swing as to fundamental.

Izzz had commented in another thread mechanics are all I focus on. Actually, my recent return to active posting was prompted by some interest in the mental game and clearkey in particular. After not posting much for quite a while, I felt I could contribute again. My focus on mechanics wasn't because I am "still looking" but more or less because I felt there are somethings that can be said, even needed to be said. I was encouraged both here and privately to keep posting. And so there you have it.

But let's be clear. At the risk of sounding arrogant, my swing is finished. I don't obsess about it, or drive to the course wondering if I "will have it" this round. I am not trying to figure out which "method" works best. Thanks to this great forum and ALL the posters, and a great teaching and learning program, I know what makes a fine golf swing. It is enough. ALL THE METHODS WORK AS LONG AS THEY ALLOW YOU TO PERFORM THE FUNDAMENTALS. If your swing method allows you to make the move and get into the position shown in the 2nd and 3rd sequences, I am willing to lay money on it that you can hit the ball pretty well.

And let's face it, this is a golf swing mechanics forum for the most part. And most of the posters haven't settled and come to peace with their swings yet. They are still trying to figure it out. And some just love to toss things around and discuss this and that. It's all good.

If I would describe my passion for golf now it would be this. That everyone would put in the hard work to learn proper swing fundamentals so well that they can make a swing without thinking about it all - a swing they will never forget. Then they would be free to learn how to PLAY the game and really ENJOY the game. The swing really isn't that hard, and the game is so much more than mechanics.

going to say one negative thing (for once. )